Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Last of the Mohicans with Dana Stevens

Episode Date: June 9, 2019

Dana Stevens (Slate) joins Griffin and David to discuss 1992's new world frontier adaptation, The Last of the Mohicans. Together they examine Mann and Daniel Day-Lewis spending a month in the forest of North Carolina learning the skills and tools needed to survive in the eighteenth-century wilderness, the legacy of character "Natty" Bumppo, the films of Buster Keaton and more! 

Can you, before the theme song, attach a disclaimer? Hi, guys. I'll do it now. Hi, guys. This is producer Ben. If Griffin and David are listening, I just want to apologize. If Griffin, David, or Dana are listening, I'm sorry for my behavior and for being late. I am a saucy boy.

And also, I'll promise to Rachel because she had to produce the first one. And sorry, producer Rachel. And producer Rachel because she had to produce the first one. And sorry, producer Rachel. I'm Nathaniel of the Yankees. Hawkeye, adopted son of Chingach Cook, of the Mohican people. Let the children of the dead Monroe and the Yankees officer go free. This belt, which is the record of the days of my father's podcast, speaks for my truth. Okay, good job.

Thank you. Sorry. It's my favorite scene. That's your favorite scene? That whole scene. The whole language scene. Oh, yeah.. Thank you. Sorry. It's my favorite scene. That's your favorite scene? That whole scene. The whole language scene. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

The simultaneous translation. Right, where there's four languages and everyone knows two. Yes. But people know different twos, different pairs. We're saying this is not a very talky movie in relation to most Michael Mann movies, which tend to be pretty dialogue heavy. Sure. But then this is this weird scene where you just, I love the sound mix where you're hearing the echo

of the translators constantly after every line. And you're like, wow, this guy is fast. He's getting that to French right away. We've come to that point friends countrymen the titular episode the namesake of this mini series

because of course this is Blank Check with Griffin and David podcast about filmography you're Griffin Newman I'm David Sims of course everyone knows of course directors of massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want sometimes those checks clear

and sometimes they bounce baby now this is a weird one because this is his biggest hit yes Adjusted for Inflation

his biggest hit and even Unadjusted it's pretty close to Unadjusted I think only Collateral is more this was like the closest thing he had

to like a real deal no no asterisks. People went to see it in the theaters and were like, I saw that film. I remember it. It's kind of his most straightforward movie. Sure. But it comes after a really long gap in his filmography. That's, I guess so. What is it?

Four or five years? Six years. I think it's six or seven. I guess Manhunter is 1986. Yeah. Right. And this is 92 or 93? I think this is 92. Yeah. Right. And this is 92 or 93? I think this is 92.

Yeah. Yeah. So it comes after a long gap. Right. And. I think he'd gone back to television. That's what's crazy. He'd made like LA Takedown.

He'd like. And he made a little show called Miami Vibe. Oh, really? Wait, wait. It's that late in the 80s? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right.

Okay. Yeah. Right. That's the big thing. It's like, here's this guy who's in TV. And the guy we're talking, of course, is Michael Mann. The miniseries is called The Cast of the Podhecans. Right.

A.K.A. Michael Mannsplaining. But he starts out in TV. He gets out of the TV ghetto, which always there was this Rio Grande line. You can't cross it. It's so tough to go from TV to movies. He does it. He makes three movies. They're well-reviewed, or at least the third are.

All three underperform. And then he's like, cool, back to TV. Then makes this, like, culture-divining show. Does a bunch of other TV stuff. And then comes back with a historical epic starring the world's most intense actor. Totally. with a historical epic starring the world's most intense actor.

Totally. His only sort of like classic movie star action hero role. Here's a question about that. How big was Daniel,

what was Daniel Day-Lewis to the public at that point? I mean, obviously he'd been in My Beautiful Laundrette, but was he like an arty British guy? He won the Oscar.

This is his first movie after winning the Oscar. Oh, My Left Foot. This is his immediate My Left Foot follow-up. I mean, immediate being three years later,

but he didn't do a lot. Yeah, you know, he took his time. Oh, My Left Foot. This is his immediate My Left Foot follow-up. I mean, immediate being three years later, but he didn't do a lot. Yeah, you know, he took his time. Oh, did someone just... Hi, Ben. Oh, my God. What a twist. Standing outside our window.

I'm glad he's alive. Let's clarify. Not in the studio because who's manning the ones and zeros, of course, is producer Rachel. Producer Rachel.

Because Ben didn't show, but now he's shown. Ben didn't show, and let's check the old clock. Clock-a-roo. 48 minutes late. 49. It just hit 49, and he's flashed double P signs while wearing a jacket around his...

We have this very professional podcast. We are in shambles today. Very professional podcast. And of course, our guest who spoke before she was introduced, which is exactly what we want on this show, is the great Dana Stevens. Hello. Hi, Dana. Thanks for coming.

Thank you. Thank you for being here as a witness to the cast of The Podhecans. Yes, he had said that he hated being in period stuff. Obviously, he'd done Room with a View. He's so good in Room with a View, playing a total prig. Is Age of Innocence after this? Yeah, Age of Innocence

is the next year. And he's done... But that's with Marty! Right, right. Unbearable Lightness of Being is him doing a more sort of modern thing. That's 88. But that's a period and that's a Tony... Right. It's a more recent period. Whoa. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Lemonade down? Lemonade down?

That's a Tony novel adaptation, right? Even though it's very sexy. So are you saying this is in line with what you would have thought DDL would choose down lemonade up uh that's a tony um you know a novel adaptation right like i mean even though it's very sexy but so are you saying this is in line with what you would have thought ddl would choose during this time it is and it isn't right like it's a novel it's a famous old novel it's a period movie but also it's like he's shirtless and he's wielding an axe people he was playing more intellectual people but this is definitely also i mean in my left foot which was his last big role, there was all the talk of like,

oh, he's so method and he was like, he never got out of the chair. Right. And this too, it's like, oh, he went and he lived in the woods and, you know, he became one with nature.

Right. Like the myth of Daniel Day-Lewis is happening right now. But it is in service of a more conventional movie star role. You know? I mean, you can tell how intense he is in service of a more conventional movie star role you know i mean you can tell how intense he is in this movie but it's also the kind of role that like mel gibson could have done a shallow version of you know he could have just done a surface version of this guy what walking in here uh-huh really are you i don't know if you're you're late i don't know if um hi hi hey

hey ben how are you i'm bad uh-huh are those your three vitamins in front of your computer they're vitamins to keep me alive cool anyway sorry I was late I had a night we could get into it probably shouldn't let's talk about the last of the Mohicans can I just say Dana

very excited to have you on the show long overdue a thing we like doing on this show is, like, completing groups, especially with, like, other movie podcasts, you know? We want, like, the full crossover. So you write for Slate. You host, or one of the hosts on the Pop Culture Gab Fest. But you have a new podcast, too.

And here's what I like about it. New podcast, but now retroactively we finish the group which group? Flashback. Oh that's right because we've had Cam on this show we've had Cam on this show so done so yes Cam Collins who's the critic for Vanity Fair and I have just started

a new podcast on Slate that's called Flashback and it's an old movie podcast so essentially we're going to trade off and each time one or the other of us will choose something from the golden early age of cinema, which we're defining as essentially 1895 through 1999.

Oh, okay. Until the turn of the century. Because we want to have the freedom to jump around. So we've already talked about, we kicked off with talking about Gaslight, the QCOR version from 1924. Topical. Forever topical. We're trying to choose stuff that has We already talked about, we kicked off with talking about Gaslight, the QCOR version from 1924, which was great. With Angela Williams-Bree. Topical. And then, yeah, we're trying, yeah, exactly.

Forever topical. Forever. We're trying to choose stuff that has, you know, has some hold on the present day for whatever reason. And then we talked about Wanda, which was fantastic. The Barbara Loden movie from 1970, I believe. And the next choice, what did we do after that? Oh, we talked about Three Days of the Condor, which was super fun. I love that movie.

And I feel like that's a director that you guys should do. Pakula? Is it Pakula? Wait, who directed Three Days of the Condor, which was super fun. I love that movie. And I feel like that's a director that you guys should do. Pakula? Is it Pakula? Wait, who directed Three Days of the Condor? Fuck, wait. Is it Pollock? Yes, it's Pollock.

Oh, I thought it was McG. I would love to do Pollock. Ben's very amused with himself. He's got a very robust filmography. He made a lot of movies. He made a lot of movies. But I mean, he made like, yeah, he worked in every genre

he was one of those like let me make a period epic or like let me make a western that seems suitable to blank check

no that's what we often like Ang Lee someone we did like he's like worked in any genre like you know we like people

who hop around but yeah so every two weeks if you want to subscribe to Slate Plus yeah and the first two podcasts first two episodes of that podcast are free and after that they're going to subscribe to Slate Plus, yeah, and the first two podcasts, first two episodes

of that podcast are free, and after that, they're going to be for Slate Plus members only. But it's so cheap to join. You should join Slate Plus. Is it? How much is Slate Plus? It's $35 a year for the first year. Oh, that's nothing. Yeah, yeah. It's like a dime a day. Can I just say, sincerely, I kind of like that everyone's just adopting plus as the thing. Plus. I kind of like

that people aren't coming up with crazy terminology and it's just like, if you pay for the thing, it's plus. The only thing that annoys would annoy me though, is if like you spent like three weeks brainstorming a name and you came out of it with like, I don't know, blank check plus.

Right. I mean, we spent like nine months brainstorming our name. We probably should have just called it plus my pitch. You just go, uh, like it would be blank check. Yup.

Exclamation point as bonus. Ben's just coming in like so hot be blank check yup exclamation point as bonus ben's just coming in like so hot to make up for the fact that he was burning i am i'm sorry yes all right hot uh look at me yep super hot thank you dana as a as a connoisseur of classic films and at some point i'm gonna hijack this podcast to be able to talk about buster Keaton at some point. Because you're working on a Buster Keaton book right now. Do a blank check on Buster Keaton. Talk about all his movies. He was on our bracket. He's on our bracket. He's my guy. I've been pushing really hard.

Once a year we have a March Madness bracket so that fans can pick who we talk about next. Yes. And Keaton was on the bracket. He was on the bracket. Those Philistines. They don't realize what they're missing they don't I forget who he lost to

it was probably like Michael Bay or something I forget who knocked him out of there but yeah if you do have any listeners who are Keaton fans they should know

that I am writing a book on him right now and it's supposed to come out next year that's so awesome not a biography but a sort of critical I don't know how to describe it

like an appreciation and your twitter handle is the high sign which is one of my favorite shorts I've had uh the the the bit uh the like the shooting gallery thing yeah it's like have you seen have you seen it i am no keaton expert i have seen like what everyone knows of keaton you know like the very very famous keaton that would kick off your podcast if you did it because that was his first self-produced independent short yes Yes. Not the first release but the first made. We would probably put all

the shorts on Blank Check Plus. They'd be behind the paywall and then we would do the main features. Everything to the... Our hospitality and... Well, no, no, because that gets into the MGM era, my friend. No, our hospitality is still his independent production. In fact, it was his first feature.

You know what? Yes, I was confusing it with... That was not his first feature. It was his second feature. What's the one I'm confusing it what? Yes, I was confusing it with... No, it was not his first feature. It was his second feature. What's the one I'm confusing it with? I think you're confusing it with Spite Marriage, perhaps? I don't know. The one MGM I'd want to throw in is Cameraman, because I love Cameraman. Oh, yeah. I just saw that on a big screen at the San Francisco Silent Film Festival with a live orchestra. It was absolutely

dazzling. You know, that's... I told Griff that you were doing this. I knew you'd be hyped up about it. This is another thing I like about silent films. Go ahead. Is that you can see them a bunch of times with different scores. I knew you'd be hyped up about it. This is another thing I like about silent films. Go ahead. Is that you can see them a bunch of times with different scores. I have a question.

Why no sound? They didn't have the technology. Oh, really? No one talked back then, man. I have to admit. Everyone was quiet. The audio producer doesn't know why

there wasn't sound. Yeah, come on, man. Yeah. And that's the first mistake he's made all day. Yeah. No, but it's not, like, a cool thing because we're, like, so used to it. I mean, Michael Mann's an exception. It's because he's, like, constantly fiddling with his movies and re-releasing them.

But so often we're used to, like, movies as being these, like, very fixed things. Sure. And if you're watching, like, a Buster Keaton movie, depending on where you rent it from or which distributor you're buying your disc from or where you see it. It could be a live orchestra. It could be a prerecorded soundtrack, but it could be any number of soundtracks.

You know how there's like Roman statues? I mean, ancient statues and like busts and they were all colored. Right. And we don't know what the colors were. Like we think of like, yeah, you know, you think of like those. Yeah, Greek statues and Roman statues were painted

and gilded and gilded with gold and stuff not only that when Notre Dame burned recently I learned that the sculptures on the front

of the cathedral were originally painted and gilded what like the gargoyles yeah well the gargoyles are more recent but like the saints that are around the doors

like and we don't I mean we can sort of I think guess at what they might have looked like and what they might have looked like I think was like kind of

what we would think of as really tacky like lots of bright crazy colors gilding like all that stuff but we look at it and we're like yeah ancient Rome was just white it was just alabaster like that but like that's all just because of how we look at the things now what if David originally had like a ton of acne yeah totally I mean that's later I don't think David was it was Davidid painted probably not because he was you know that in that period they were imitating the so-called classical purity of the old sculptures that still that still blows my mind i just want to imagine all those

sculptures looked like garbage pail kids cards like when they were painted the details were just like sweat marks and like boogers and like stubble stubble yeah right like a little bandage like an X it looked like when you doodled in your history books and would just add gross details

right like an eye patch oh god I love this episode you could make them vaporwave too if you wanted to I'm just saying I'm too hot alright

leave the studio please um well okay so we'll we'll get I'm sure we'll touch on Buster Keaton again

I just wanted to stump a little bit here because we I want to sell our listeners on the idea of him being an interesting

guy to cover and I would so come back and do any movie of his he's one of the first film auteurs right yeah

right he was like kind of inarguably especially because like as like actor, writer, director producer everything

editor he edited his own movies too yes and he is fascinating because by all accounts I mean, especially because like as like actor, writer, director, producer, everything. Editor. He edited his own movies too. Yes. And he is fascinating because by all accounts, he was this guy who was like, it's a living. Like clock in, clock out. Well, just born to it, you know? He was a vaudeville guy.

He grew up as a child star basically in vaudeville. In a very, very violent family act. Right. Like he didn't have any pretensions about it. It was just like, this is the job, this is the trade. Oh, yeah. And he hated being called an artist or thought of as an artist in any way. And he was, like, exacting about doing things correctly. Much like Michael Mann.

Much like Griffin Newman. Much like Griffin Newman. Yeah, he rules. He's the number one guy. Sure. I hope your listeners enjoyed this hefty sidebar on Buster Keaton. Oh, this is nothing compared to the sidebars they get served up sometimes. But here's a question for you.

Dana, have you seen any of the older versions of Last of the Mohicans? No, and I just saw, calling this up on Amazon, I saw that there's a silent version. And so since I'm deep in silent film right now, I want to watch it. There's a 1920, I believe, German version. This has been made, this novel by James Fenimore Cooper has been made into so many movie and TV versions. I watched about half of the silent one last night. Really?

The Wallace Beery one? When I Couldn't Sleep. Yes. Classic you. Yep. Oh, so it wasn't a German. It's an American movie. That one's American.

And Wallace Beery is Natty Bumpo? He's Hawkeye? Wallace Beery is Magwa. Yes. Yes. Weird. He's the bad guy. Oh, the of course he's the villain right uh it's not very good sure and it's also one of those what is it like a you know 70 minutes long or whatever right like it's like a very abridged yeah yeah it's an hour 10 i think but it's also uh it's it's just like very kind of uh uh stagey and overwrought. And brownface aplenty, I'm sure, right?

Yeah. I mean, that stuff can be a little tough to just wave away with the old, well, it was the past. It's still hard to watch. It's also one of the world's worst transfers I've ever seen. What were you watching it on? Amazon, a company that's done a lot of wrong things. But they,

a company with many, many mistakes. But they, you know, Amazon can be a bit of a repository for just like public domain, like sort of like sloppy work. And so it like looks like a digitized VHS and the intertitles are done in like Comic Sans. Like they're literally just like like, typed on a black

screen. But it's not great, but this is, we were saying he wrote five of these books over the course of several decades, and this was kind of like his Tarzan. This was, like, his, like, money character. Hawkeye. Right, this was his, like,

big franchise. And much like Tarzan, it falls into that category of like, what if there was like a white guy who kind of represented all the qualities of the indigenous people but was, you know, white for us? Yeah. I was thinking about that with this character. And you've read the novel, right? You've read a couple of these? I read it. No, I read The Last of the Mohicans in college.

Wow. In an early American literature class where we were reading like Hawthorne Melville I can't name your 19th century

American authors and my professor Tucker Max yeah right totally he's part of the Hudson sort of school too

right sure yeah like kind of functioning with also the like the artists the painters

I think so too hot Ben it's so hot too hot I know stuff Cooperstown as I was remarking to you Yeah, like kind of functioning with also the artists, the painters. I think so. Too hot, Ben. It's so hot. Too hot. I know stuff. Cooperstown, as I was remarking to you guys. I love Natty. I'm a Natty boy.

He's named after his dad. Cooperstown, New York. I almost knocked over the lemonade again. It's going over there now. But my professor was obsessed with him and was really trying to sell us on the book. I remember in the lectures where he's like, don't you see? You know that thing where your professor knows that the whole class is kind of like,

Yeah, I've been that teacher. I've been that teacher. And he's like writing quotes out for us. He's like, come on, this is so evocative. And I just remember it being a major slog to read. It's like truly, it's not terrible or anything, but it's very, very flowery and old fashioned they weren't

dinosaur novels but I feel like their legacy is kind of like those were like adventure books for people but they were enormously popular incredibly popular right

and like at a time when American literature was still this like very early exciting thing but Mark Twain liked to rag on them did you write that too?

yeah you like spent his whole life being like you know yeah I like books except for The Last of the Mohicans it's so funny because actually like to rag on them. Did you write that too? Yeah. He spent his whole life being like, you know, yeah, I like books except for The Last of the Mohicans.

It's so funny because actually when I was thinking about the very thing Griffin just mentioned about the kind of racial disguise that Daniel Day-Lewis is in,

right? The white guy raised by Mohicans. Right. I thought of Huckleberry Finn. Right. You know,

I mean, just this idea of sort of you're almost like Trojan horsing in a person of color but you can't actually make them the protagonist.

Yes. That was not Mark Twain's complaint. He wrote a famous essay called Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses. Basically like a beef track, you know, where he was saying like, I want to find in one place in Deerslayer, in the restricted space of-thirds of a page, Cooper has scored 114 offenses against literary art out of a possible 115. It breaks the record. I mean, let's say, Mark Twain was not afraid to drag

people on the timeline. Yeah, he was right exactly. He would. There's The Last Samurai. There's the film The Last Samurai, right? Years after this one. That's the other weird thing is the like, this is a film about the last person representing this group. It's a white person who comes in and does it better. In this movie, that's not true.

I know it's not true, but it is still a little bit. What are you doing now? What's been... Found it. What did he find? His phone, I think. Too hot! Enough, enough, enough.

Basta! All right. But, right, and so I was worried. In The Last Samurai so i was worried what in the last samurai tom cruz is kind of the last samurai and i was i remember the first time i i saw this movie i was worried like is this is he is like daniel dino is the last of the mohicans well i mean the title very clear like no he's not no he's no russell means who we will get to russell means is always like where's my white son? He always makes sure to qualify. Yeah.

Have you seen my white son? Chingachgook is not his father in the book, right? It's like his adoptive brother. Yeah, let me, and Uncas is sort of a different character from what I remember.

Chingachgook is his brother. For some reason, the relationship is qualified differently. Because they got Russell Means who's old enough to be Daniel Day day lewis's father yeah and i feel like audiences really or at least they thought audiences really were drawn to the sort of like wise uh elder type character right like you know they like that sort of like gravitas of the the the chief or it's a couple years after dances with wolves so it was occurring to me, although I would need more

evidence to substantiate this, that there was something of a Native American craze going on in pop culture. There was. That's a good point. That's probably one reason that studios are like, yeah, go for it. And this was also kind of the first time period where they actually were casting Native Americans to play Native American wolves.

Like, post-Dancing with Wolves, I mean, people gave Dances with Wolves credit for that, where they're like, this is the first time they didn't just, like, put Anthony Quinn in, like, Yeah, or maybe cast, like, a Mexican actor

or, like, a Spanish actor. Right, right. I mean, that's, like, famously the proud Native American with a single tear at the recycling ad was Italian. Like, it was always just, like...

Wasn't that... Is that Chief Dan George? Am I wrong? There was a guy named Chief Dan George who was sort of your go-to Indian, and it turned out he was, like, a Jewish guy from Brooklyn. Right, and Sasheen Littlefeather

was the same thing, right? Wasn't she... Right, yeah, yeah. Like, all your representatives were always just like, here's someone who's, quote-unquote... Wait, Sasheen was not... Am I wrong about this?

Am I slandering Sasheen Littlefeather? Let me find out. I got her her mom was a french german and dutch descent um her father it's one of those you know this thing her father was native american okay uh he was an apache like but like she she barely knew him but this is obviously with native american uh heritage in general it's like it can be very touchy to talk about your blood relation to people

versus your tribe membership and all that stuff. Yeah, it's something that I feel like as two pale males and one pale female, we don't have a lot to weigh in on there. Yeah, and a late scum bum behind the points. But I would say that, yeah, there's this tension about that in this movie and in Dances with Wolves as well,

where it's like, yes, finally, they are casting Native Americans as Native Americans. At the same time, there's a real noble savage thing going on. They're in supporting roles. They're sort of a noble savage thing going on. And they're often playing these archetypes. Right, right.

Totally. And also, those actors are going to play your Native American guy for 30 years. Right, like Wes Doody. Graham Greene will start, he's like,

oh, there he is. Right, you know, Dances with Wolves. Wes Studi was in Dances with Wolves, wasn't he? He was. He has a small role. Wes Studi being the guy who played Magwa. But Dances with Wolves kind of launches both of them. And Wes Studi has this

great career, but then it's like... I think of Wes Studi as the only Native American actor who, like, led a movie. Yes. You know, like, Geronimo, that like, he's like on the poster. Right. Even Haas Stiles, he was on the poster. Above the title. He a movie. Yes. You know, like Geronimo, that like he's like on the poster. Right. Even Hostiles, he was on the poster. Above the title.

He's above the title. You know, he's one of the few where he's not playing the supporting role that's all wise or all tough or all... I went on a 90s Western rabbit hole last night

because I was trying to trace the timeline of this sort of boom. Right, because with Dance of the Wolves, it wasn't like, oh, you're making a Native American. It was like, you're making a Western. Those things are, no one makes Westerns. When they were making it, people called it Kevin's Gate.

And they were like, this is the greatest, most disastrous vanity project in a decade. It's going to bomb so hard. This guy's overreaching. Go back to the baseball field, Costner. And then it's like this massive success and it wins all the Oscars. And then you have like Unforgiven wins again

a couple years later. That's right. That's this year, I believe. It's very weird to have like two Westerns win Best Picture in such quick succession in a time period where the Westerns had seemed dead for a while. And then there is this 90s boom

and Danza's Wolves gets credit for being the first time that it was like, we're going to cast Native Americans and we're going to be culturally respectful and we're going to try to do this right even if the movie's about the white guy who's the best at everything. That was like a shift. And there was in that sort of boom, all the sort of lesser films

that come out of it, Walter Hill's Geronimo, I was on that Wikipedia page and they were saying that the studio was fighting him so hard to be like, you got a green light if you like Cas Kiefer Sutherland

and like paint him brown. And Walter Hill was like, we can't do that. Right, that's crazy. Look at the fucking calendar. We can't do that. And it was like such a battle to get Wes Studi to play

the title role in the film and then the movie bombed. But it is that kind of crazy thing where it's like he's in the new world and in new world he isn't like any super significant part. You know he's in a lot of the movie. But he's not like you know

Pocahontas' father. He's not the chief. You know? He's one of these guys where like he does tons of work but anytime there's any Native American film, they have to bring him in because it's sort of like, I think he does a lot of like consultant work. I think he like coaches

a lot of the other actors too. I mean, he's a fascinating guy. He's got one of the great faces in the history of movies. He's got an incredible face. Especially in this. And his voice is incredible. Yeah.

Dana, do you want to weigh in on this? I mean, I was just going to move to Russell Means for a second. Yes, okay. You want to weigh in on this i mean i was just going to move to russell means for a second you want to talk means and say i was just fascinated to see that this was russell means his first movie i mean i just sort of feel like throughout the 90s russell means was just the face of native america in movies and he had never acted before and he has a huge role he was known as an indian activist as a you know really he was part of the american indian movement right aim and and actually was quite controversial within that movement and led this splinter group where then aim later was issuing press releases at some point saying don't listen to anything russell means says because

russell means had some statement that he made i don't know if it was at a press conference or what but when he did this split off of of the aim movement he wanted to eradicate all treaties ever made between any native american tribe in the u.s like from wanted to eradicate all treaties ever made between any Native American tribe in the U.S. Like from here on, those are all void. And the rest of the AIM people were saying, wait, wait, wait a second. We need somewhere to negotiate. Right, right, right.

Anyway, so he's known for being this kind of controversial and occasionally violent. He spent time in jail. Kind of figure. I mean, didn't they take over Alcatraz at one point? Like they would do all these sort of occupations. Yeah, there's a regular occupation. I think it still happens on Thanksgiving Day that tribes take over Alcatraz at one point? Like they would do all these sort of occupations. Yeah, there's a regular occupation. I think it still happens on Thanksgiving Day that tribes take over Alcatraz. They seize the Mayflower, a replica of the Mayflower.

I'm just sort of looking at it. To me, that's an incredible career arc, right? I mean, I don't know quite how old he is when he's... Now? No, no, when he was... He died in 2012, I think. But when he starred in this movie, he had to be in his 40s. Yeah, like, well, if he was born in 39, he would have been, like, over 50.

Oh, yeah, he's my dad's age, right. But that's, like, the Michael Mann thing is, like, Dennis Farina was just an ex-cop who he, like, hired as a consultant, you know, and then had on set doing, like, a small role, and then he becomes, like, his muse. Like, Michael Mann so loves the people who have just, like, lived in this fucking world, you know? And he, like, loves if so loves the people who have just like lived in this fucking world you know and he like loves if he can find someone who's like oh you're like an actual

ex-con like you're a thief you're a cop you know if you listen to his director's commentaries which are delightful it's always like him being like yeah that guy's a cop i met him doing this and now you know like every every like little actor he's like yeah this guy did security for this gang so i hired him you know in this like great chicago accent i just imagine that michael mann's like i don't care if russell means has never acted before i don't care if he's controversial the guy like walks the walk like he spends all his time thinking about this stuff yeah yeah and that really does come out i have to say in the performance like the the parts are very underwritten right he really doesn't get much to do, but he brings a huge amount of

I don't know what you'd call it, just hard-won wisdom to that. Yeah, very similitude. One of my favorite words. I don't know. Which is the key Michael Mann buzzword, and what's weird about this movie, because it is his most conventional film, it's a pretty straightforward adventure

film with his flourishes yeah but but the verse and militude is the big michael man thing at the time of its release they were like all the weapons are accurate sure you know like we studied everything we made sure i mean just like years of research which combined with uh daniel day leis, this just must have been the most fucking intense set in history. Daniel Day-Lewis learned how to make a canoe. He like, you know, carried a long rifle all the time. I mean, you always wonder about these

method acting anecdotes. Like, come on. He brought the long rifle to the cater table? But like, obviously Daniel Day-Lewis kind of invented a lot of that. So, yeah. But I think this is just a movie where those two guys were in a competition for who could find more hard-won details. Are you looking at the trivia page?

I have to read you this sentence from a Newsweek review of the time, contemporary with the movie. Man and Day-Lewis searched for Hawkeye's character by spending a month in the forests of North Carolina, learning the skills and tools needed to survive in the 18th century wilderness. Just imagine that month. Was it just the two of them? Was it just like the two of them camping out with muskets? It just sounds so intense. Can you just imagine like Michael Mann and Daniel Day-Lewis like lying on rocks in the middle of the night?

My dad was a grocer. And Daniel Day-Lewis is like, my father the middle of the night. My dad was a grocer. And Daniel Day-Lewis is like, my father was poet laureate of Britain, which he was. I just see them like cleaning their long rifles as the craft table is being set up, you know, somewhere in the distance. This is something I want to read. This is from the trivia page on IMDb.

Many long nights were filmed doing the siege scenes, the big siege of the fort. Loud speakers were installed all around the battlefield so that man could give directions to the whole crew right and one long one night after like a long night michael man started yelling what's that orange light turn it off turn it off and the second lady was like uh it's the sun the sun's rising wow michael man was so like distracted god damn the sun what is this thing i will say this is the movie where i totally like you see why michael man became so obsessed with digital because he's trying to make a movie that takes place so largely at night a lot of night

stuff especially a lot of night battles and it's so difficult to light this thing. Right. And he comes up with some clever solutions but you just imagine he's like, I will gladly sacrifice a quote unquote prettiness in order to be able to make this

just kind of look real. Right. But you don't think this movie looks pretty? Oh, it's gorgeous. I think it looks very pretty. I think it looks very pretty. The scene tonight,

it is the classic like, you kind of need total darkness to see everything right, right? Like, you know, their faces as they're talking to each other can be a little bit scared. What I find fascinating is this is such a pretty sort of painterly movie that you could see him becoming a guy who's all about that level of visual control. And instead, the second digital video arrives, he's like, cool, I'll throw that away. I'm, like, happy to make the movie look like shit

if I can get everything in focus and be able to film with low light levels, you know? Well, it's a little bit, I mean, it's Hawkeye-like to use DV, right? It's like he's moving stealthily through the forest using the tools that he has. It's like very practical because he's one of those guys, David Lynch does the same thing where they're both like, I love digital cameras, it's so fucking ugly you know right they both go like i just love

that it's like it's fucking ugly and it looks bad and you can take it anywhere and it doesn't take time and you can shoot anything right you know they're just like get it done get it done like i'm more concerned about what's in the frame and i want to get that right and then i want to have the flexibility to film that however I want and improvise on that level you know I mean what you're saying about like the sun like he just must have been so frustrated waiting for the lighting setups of like how do you make it look bright enough to be able to capture the image on film in a nighttime battle scene without cheating you know like like how how do you get enough fire in the background?

Not to mention the cave, right? The emotional climax of the movie takes place in a cave. Right. My one semester of film school, I had a class where they showed us this, like, early 2000s Spanish Don Quixote movie. Okay. And there's a scene where Don Quixote movie. Okay.

And there's a scene where Don Quixote and Cetra Paz are, like, talking in the field, and he's just, like, monologuing. One of his crazy Quixote monologues. And as they're talking for, like, 10 minutes, the sun just goes down. And by the end of the monologue, I think it's like an unbroken two shot. By the end of the monologue, it's just pitch black. Like you can barely see.

In this time period, when the sun went out, everything was just dark. It's just completely dark. You just couldn't see. Like at night, it was just like, well, that's the end of being awake.

That's how people live, right? I guess I go to sleep now. I think about this all the time when I think about very prolific writers from the past, electricity, you know, Shakespeare, Immanuel Kant or something like that. Yeah, just like sitting there scratching it out by candlelight, like the dedication. I feel like when we depict that act in like art, you know, or like, you know, movies or TV or whatever, it's like this romantic, like it's a close, like, you know, it's a tight shot of them hunched over with the lamp and the, you know it's a tight shot of them hunched over with the the lamp

and the you know the candle and just scribbling and the thing you don't think about is just like everything around them is just pitch black like the light is only in such a small contained space right the experience wouldn't have been like oh the liquid lamp light pouring over me it would have been shit i can't see a goddamn thing right and i And I need to finish Hamlet. Right. And when you have to go to the bathroom, you're like, I'm going to get this fucking candle. You have to go through the hallway. I really think about that.

Creaking floors. And your wife's like, please, just come to bed. And you're like, I'm writing Romeo and Juliet. Anne Hathaway, his wife. His wife, Anne Hathaway. I don't think they interacted a lot. Tom Hardy and Anne Hathaway have both his wife Anne Hathaway although I don't think they interacted a lot Tom Hardy and Anne Hathaway have both made historical appearances

in this podcast yes of course Natty Bumpo as you say is actually the name of the character Natty Bumpo

was the name of the hero of all the leather shocking tales but it's changed for the movie to the much more Nathaniel Poe 90s friendly romantic name

Nathaniel Poe which I think is a loss I mean who doesn't love the name Natty Bumpo What's up I'm Natty Bumpo With his long flowing locks Isn't that the same name of Nick Cage and Con Air No he's something Poe

And they have a similar Hairstyle the two of them That's what's weird about this movie Cameron Poe is his Name in Con Air I just feel like the whole way Daniel Day-Lewis is framed in this movie is like you can tell how much like intensity is putting into it and how much research he put into it but it's also like this is his one kind of beefcake performance

yeah where he's like shirtless and running and like you say like Mel Gibson could have done this or Kevin Costner and the fact that the film is kind of painterly means that like he kind of always looks like Legends of the Folly, you know? He's like lit beautifully and his hair is just like draping up his face. It's like the cover, he and Madeline Stowe both could be on the cover of a Bodice Ripper paperback, right? Yes.

Madeline Stowe is a very good fit. Right, and his role is mostly action. Like it's not even just like, oh, it's largely a physical performance. his role is mostly action like it's not even just like oh it's largely a physical performance his role is largely him running that's why i was thinking i mean to the to the extent that that he his character development that all the work he did you know imagining with camping out with michael mann north carolina etc the place you see it is in his run it's like his run is so expressive and he's like his neck is like jutting out. He's sort of hunched over, you know?

He just looks like he's a weapon, you know? Sure. He's always been a good actor physically in terms of not being afraid of how he might look on screen as well. He's very good at just screening and making funny faces and all that. With his looks, he's got some wiggle room there. Yeah, he's got a lot of wiggle room. But that's this thing he said where he said that early in his career he really resented his face.

Sure. Because he was like, I had this nose and this profile that was well suited for these very kind of austere dramas of manners. And that he wanted to break out of that. He's got such a great face.

He's like got an incredible face. The best. But he like, I think he viewed it as an impediment that he looked so much like a classical leading man. Or, you know, what he likes is like playing fucking like nightmare people.

Yeah. He likes playing these very cartoonish creatures sometimes. Right. Like, like, like Bill, the butcher is a very cartoonish creature. Even, um, what do you call it? Daniel Plainview. Right. Like, like Bill the Butcher is a very cartoonish creature. Even,

what do you call it, Daniel Plainview, right? Right. Well, that's this other thing about him is like, you've talked about

how he's one of your favorite actors and how that's like kind of a lame answer. What a hot take, right? Like, that I like Daniel Day-Lewis.

But the thing that I think people don't talk about enough with him is that he's really fucking funny. Oh, Dan is so funny. Ben has close friends with... Ben has this bit where he's

friends with Daniel Day-Lewis. He calls him Dan Lewis. I mean, I just know him as Dan. What do you think of Daniel Day-Lewis? And he's very funny. Like, he seems so serious. Especially when you're stitching shoes together. He's really cracking some good ones. Don't talk leather

to that boy. He can go on and on. Josh and Cobble all day long with Dan. I can't believe Ben is redeeming himself. I can't believe Ben is winning Dana over. Here's the thing. You get him a couple beers in and he is just cracking jokes. It's really a delight.

I wish more people knew that about Dan. He's so proud of himself. He leaned from behind the piano. I stopped. I stopped. Dana, do you have a hot Daniel Day-Lewis take? Or do you just... I mean, all I can say is that every time I see him now,

I'm just so sad that if he's really done... Me too. And he seems like the kind of guy who might be really done. I mean, he's famous for his sort of lack of vanity as an actor, right? As you were saying, he doesn't even like being like the handsome godlike profile that he has. I can easily see him being somebody who just says, no, I'm private life. I'm cobbling with, you know, my director wife and it's all good. And also you see Ben's influence in that, like once he announces his retirement, now he gets like totally tatted up and like shaved his head and wears black leather now. Have you seen what he looks like now are you serious oh i am so serious i'm gonna get this

picture we're actually getting matching tattoos i mean see this is where the line between the bit and reality is getting blurred but somehow daniel day lewis does now look like ben is friends with him ben's actually late because of him but he's just being modest about it yeah he looks like someone who works at like a bike store now you know what i late because of him, but he's just being modest about it. He looks like someone who works at a bike store now, you know what I mean? Where he's like, yeah, yeah, let me grab that and lifts it up. Oh my god, can you imagine if he'd played a bike messenger? He should!

What if he had done Premium Rush? But that's the thing, it feels like he's pointedly trying to burn down the house now, you know? And just be like, I'm fully putting to rest the classical Daniel Day-Lewis sort of austere image. Right.

God, I thought I got to find a story. While you're searching, can I tell my favorite story about him? Please. Please. You guys know that while performing Hamlet on stage, he once broke down and couldn't go on and the show had to end because essentially because he started kind of mourning his own father and freaking out on stage when he talked to the ghost. He would see the ghost and like start sobbing right i've read that story the story

of it is incredible and that was very early in his career i mean he may not have even done a movie yet he was basically a stage actor this was i think he had started doing films and it was his return to stage and he in the middle of the performance said i'm sorry i can't do this and then never has done stage he hasn't done stage since which is crazy because i assume he's probably a fairly arresting presence on stage i would just hazard to guess wow imagine being one of the people who got to see him like saw him like do hamlet or whatever whoa okay so i'm looking at a picture of the new ddl he looks like a shaved head now yeah sleeve tattoos yeah oh he looks good though oh man he looks so i mean he looks

so hot i saw him at the angelica oh you did i did and it was one of those things where the first thing was just like wow that's a very handsome man and then i realized that that is daniel day lewis but he was head to toe in black he was what movie was he seeing oh fuck i was trying to figure it out at the time. I need to search my tweet history to see. But he was in the lobby. He was walking past the ticket taker. I was in the lobby enjoying a cafe.

And he was all black, tight black jeans, black t-shirt, black leather jacket, black beanie. I think he was with Rebecca Miller and full tatted sleeves. What was he seeing, do you think?

Amazing Grace. How recently was this? This was like a year ago. This was like right after Phantom Thread when it was like such a big thing. He was probably seeing the Emoji movie. Yeah, right. I'm wondering if he should have turned down that role. He is an emoji.

He can do them all know he can do them all he can do any emoji he can do them all this scarcity effect we're talking about like he won't do theater anymore now he's not doing movies anymore you know

he only has one podcast that he hosts yeah no no go on sorry I'm sorry why it's a Game of Thrones talkback which means it's about to end

right right right okay don't do the spinoff just saw Daniel Day-Lewis walking the angelica dress entirely in black denim it was denim it wasn't leather

this is April 7th 2008 I'm gonna go to the box office sorry to interrupt I'm gonna figure this out alright no I was just gonna say that making himself a scarce commodity

like that just makes even retroactively right seeing a 1992 movie he was in makes his presence so precious like there he is

one of the moments that he was recorded on film and so that overlays this movie, which in many ways I think is dated and doesn't stand up super well. I kind of agree with you. But seeing him in it, absolutely magical. And the action scenes, everything that has to do with action, whether it's jumping off a waterfall,

burning down a fort, all that stuff's incredible. And it's also just kind of amazing as one of those, like, what if? What if he had just pursued this? You know, what if he had just like pursued this you know what if he had become like uh like an action epic guy or it's a thing he could have done for a guy who's that intense and is that into preparation he could have just funneled all that energy into like the time period and the physical demands of the role and just become a guy who did like these

massive you know he could have been a studio guy he generally just also this is his first ever studio movie crazy and he generally didn't make a lot of studio movies just period yeah you know like i think something like the age of innocence that's a studio movie but like the you know the irish movies he would make with jim sheridan like in the name of the father of the boxer right those are more european and even like gangs in new york i I mean, wasn't that, that was a full Miramax movie, right? I think someone else had a piece of it. Maybe. You know, he was, he's, yeah, he's as close as you come to like an actor as a auteur, even though he mostly worked with big auteur directors, because his entire filmography is like, you know, this long, right? Like it's like 20 movies.

I had just seen You Were Never Really Here. Yeah, I could see him checking that out. And I hypothesized that that's what he was going into. There you go. But also playing around that time would have been like A Fantastic Woman. Sure. Lean on Pete. He looked like he was dressed to see You Were Never Really Here.

He had his Joaquin pants on. Yes, yes. Hobo assassin. Yeah. All right. So Last of the Mohicans, like we said, yeah, his first studio movie. were never really here. He had his Joaquin pants on. Yes. Hobo assassin. Alright, so Last of the Mohicans, like we said, his first studio movie, Michael Mann's first film in six years. He is

more adapting the 1936 film, he said. That's the weird thing, it's like this is like him making a movie because of how much he liked this other movie when he was a kid. Right. Like this movie in its weird way is kind of like Peter Jackson's King Kong where it's like here's this movie that had this big impression on me when I was a child. And now I'm going to make the movie that's in my mind.

Like how I viewed it when I was little. And that movie I think is the one that makes the change to have Hawkeye be this more straightforward romantic lead type. And that movie is credited. There's no romance in the book. No? I don't know. In the book also In the book has he already

joined S.H.I.E.L.D. at this point or is it all set before? In the book Cora Monroe is like supposed to be have some kind of African descent like there's the she's she's the uh sort of the classic like you know quote-unquote dark lady uh which Madeline Stowe is quite the opposite right they they question about Madeline Stowe's character and in general about the accent choices what's going on I don't know okay we can we can talk about the uh the American accent choices in a second but I don't know. Okay, we can talk about the American accent choices

in a second, but Madeline Stowe's character, Cora, is supposed to be British, right? Yes. I think she's supposed to be. In the novel, she's from the Caribbean,

but she's an aristocrat. She's a fancy British lady who grew up on some plantation or estate or God knows what, right? That's the idea. But she and her sister are supposed to have been brought over from England

by their dad. She does talk at some point about living in Boston, so maybe that's what messed up the accent. Yeah, sure. I gotta say, Madeline Stowe's voice

is very in and out with the British sounds. It is. I really like Madeline Stowe. She's a weird career. Yeah. I was a little bit underwhelmed by her watching this.

I remember just always thinking she was just such a great beauty, incredible classic beauty, like off of a weird career. Yeah. I was a little bit underwhelmed by her watching this. I remember just always thinking she was just such a great beauty, incredible classic beauty like off of a cameo. and she's got a lot of presence. I don't think vocally she's particularly impressive.

No, I don't. She also just doesn't have a ton to do. Right. Like, I mean, Jodi May has nothing to do except sort of just look very classic.

She barely has a line. And have that incredible moment at the end of the movie. But like. Can I just point out that that exact same thing happens in Birth of a Nation? Really? Well, I mean, a young woman, a young white woman who is about to be abducted by a black man in that case, not a Native American, chooses to jump off a cliff instead. Can I say something?

Go ahead. I feel like a Birth of a Nation might be problematic. You don't think that movie holds up? I don't know. A little dated. Because obviously I loved it as a kid, right? I have so much nostalgia for Birth of a Asian. It's just one of those movies. I mean, only real 90s kids

understand. Alright, alright. Pack it in. D.W. Griffith is cancelled. Fully cancelled. Fully cancelled. Yes, I agree with you that she is more striking in this movie

to look at than she is giving a textured dimensional performance but it's also true she's not given a ton to do she's not given a ton to do

and as she used to fall in love with Hawkeye like that immediately yeah I mean the falling in love you only believe it really because of Daniel Day-Lewis

and the music ultimately right I would argue the music as well alright but do believe it really because of Daniel Day-Lewis. And the music. I would argue. The music as well. All right. But do you find the music to be smiting the viewer over the head in a 90s style? It's heavy handed. It's a little oppressive.

It's a great theme. I mean, it's a wonderful, hummable theme. It's a very, it's sort of earworm-y. But he does not skimp on laying it on. No. I was Googling and I can't believe I couldn't find anyone else putting this together. But this theme is totally plagiarized it was a Scottish folk song

well no they took it from the opening of the Doughboys live episodes okay some people are gonna like that joke it's not for everybody it's for some people Dana the show's like this a lot we have to stop being silly

producer comes in 45 minutes later yeah right you're gonna you're gonna talk rebranding um on time

2019 I agree with you I was 15 minutes late is the theme after because the song wasn't the theme

wasn't nominated for an Oscar the score wasn't nominated for an Oscar which seems bizarre and maybe it was because it was not original enough.

Exactly. Right, because the main theme is taken from another song. Okay. Which is by some Gaelic songwriter, I believe. So there you go. Contemporary 90s Gaelic songwriter. Right, so it was like ineligible. And it also was two different composers.

Trevor Jones and who's the other one? Randy Edelman. But I think Trevor Jones died. Sure. One of them died and the other one took over. Like it was sort of like noted at the time as being this weird mishmash score. Okay. Because it's like main theme is taken from.

But it's a beautiful theme. It's beautiful. Yeah. Oh, it's beautiful. Comes me up. Cinematography is the only nomination this got? Oscar-wise? Could that be true?

No, it won an Oscar. It won for best sound, and that's it. Really? No cinematography. Wow, that's weird. Very weird. This is a very good-looking movie. You'd think, you know, the sets and all that and the costuming.

But this was kind of like, did this come out in the spring? This film came out in September. Late September. So, I don't know. Prime Oscar-y time. I don't know. Michael Mann movies are usually ignored at the Oscars. That's all I got for you.

Yeah, this one is just so sort of like prestige-y. But I guess it also was like I don't know, it's like an action movie or something. But I guess it also was like, I don't know, it's like an action movie or something. Yeah, maybe. But for it to come in between

Braveheart and Dances with Wolves and all these other sort of similar... These big, rip-snorting, period epics that the Oscars

would totally fall for. What did win Best Picture that year? Unforgiven. This is the Unforgiven year. It's the Unforgiven year. It's also, Malcolm X

is one of the big movies in 92 at the Oscars. What else we got? Al Pacino wins for Scent of a Woman that year. Howard's End is that year.

Emma Thompson wins. Marissa Tomei. Good Oscars actually. It's kind of a fun Oscars. A River Run runs through it won Best Cinematography

which is a movie that's like all cinematography. Right. Like I could barely tell you what happens in that movie, right? But like it looks good. I guess it happens. Catch some fish. Yeah, right. Did you see this in theaters, Dana? Or when do you remember first seeing this movie? I must have.

The only thing I remembered, I had a jolting sense memory of him jumping off the waterfall. Sure. And you know of course the speech that he makesolting sense memory of him jumping off the waterfall. And, you know, of course, the speech that he makes to Madeline Stowe before jumping off the waterfall, which is the most probably the most quoted and excerpted in clips kind of line. Stay alive, whatever occurs. Is that what he says? That sounds. Yeah.

Stay alive is definitely part of it. And that was all I remembered. But, yeah, I think I must have because, yeah, I mean, I was what? was what a teenager young adult and you go to the movies and see this that year for sure it's it's a very date movie kind of movie i don't think i went on a date to it but i imagine that a lot of people did you stay alive no matter what occurs he's got that that yankee voice that weird or he's got he's got his own accent okay let's go to those okay let's talk about the accent i just wonder at what point in their conversations about how this bizarre, bizarrely imagined person, right?

Like white son of traitors brought up by Mohicans who somehow is, you know, this like surpassingly incredible soldier, warrior, but is allied with no one.

Like how is he going to talk? I mean, his language is this absolutely uninflected, just plain old California. Right. Like what is that choice? I doned, just plain old California. Right.

Right? Like, what is that choice? I don't know. It's a great question. And it strikes me as something that Michael Mann would care about. It seems like it's weirdly the voice it's closest to is kind of Lincoln. Yeah, yeah. That kind of like, I remember an old mill.

Right. That sort of weird, yeah. I will come and find you. You stay alive here. But I feel like his Lincoln was more stylized. Yes, his Lincoln's definitely more stylized. He found a way. It wasn't. And also, he's talking that Tony Kushner dialogue that's like every word is kind of wonderful.

That movie's so languagey. Clothed in immense power. Clothed in immense power. Now, now, now. Whereas all the other Yankees and the colonists, not the Brits, but the guys who are like, hey, now, wait a second. I feel like they are making that like not the Brits but the the guys who are like hey now wait a second they've I feel like they are making that effort to have that weird accent of the time or at least

a cadence like a period cadence the movie version of it at the very right where it's like it's like the American accent has not quite emerged yet but it's it's being formed right the sort of classic New Englander kind of accent but his character Daniel Day-Lewis could actually just be saying, like,

I want a slushie, you know? He's completely modern in his diction and articulation, and that's obviously a choice. I guess, right, and maybe it's just because he stands so separately from everyone else anyway that he should just have a completely different cadence to everybody else. Yeah.

I don't know. I do think that's an interesting thing. I'm just thinking about what you said, Dana, about this being like a big high school date movie. I do feel like this used to be the thing of like, oh, you're like a teenager now. You're going on dates. You have to take them to like a serious movie.

Right. It's like Far and Away, Legends of the Fall, all those early 90s movies with marquee idols we know like Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt, but their hair's longer. They've got a frickin' bolo tie or something's going on right and a rough neck rough yeah and it's gonna be long and like it's gonna be about some period of history and it's gonna make some yeah totally like play in malls and teenagers would be like well i want to look

sophisticated yeah right let's i gotta go like this is like mainstream sophistication yeah and there was like enough action and enough, enough like badass moments, enough romance. Especially in this one. Yeah. It is kind of a good mix of, yeah, of the kind of chick movie, love affair, and the action scenes. And like swoony guys and pretty ladies and, yeah, warriors. It's great. I love it.

Guy's heart gets cut out. I do love, like, the thing that I was most taken by in this movie is that the quote-unquote love scene is just Madeline still breathing. Sure.

Like, it's a pretty uninterrupted shot where you're seeing, like, his back and her over him and it's just kind of like, you know, implied foreplay or what have you or just caressing or canoodling or spooning or what have you sure and it's just a very long take of her

like breathing the exact thing that these kinds of movies and especially michael man movies don't seem to uh really focus on which are like women enjoying themselves. But wait, one exception to that and this is the love scenes reminded me of these are the love scenes in Miami Vice, the movie.

Right? I mean, there's the things that just, the only reason that we know that Gong Li and Colin Farrell are into each other is because they sit around

breathing and sweating and looking beautiful. They don't really say anything or develop any kind of relationship. No, no. That's not how Michael Mann works. It's very carnal.

They jump in a little animalistic, little whatever, water repeal. Go fast boat. Go fast boat. It's very carnal. They jump in a little, it's animalistic. A little whatever, water repeal. Go fast boat. Go fast boat. Right. Yep, go to Cuba.

But like that section of the movie, you're just like that long take, you're like, this could be from like Planet Earth or something. Like this is just like watching like animal mating habits. And the fact that it's like

you don't even see his face really. Sure. It's just her like, I don't know. Again, I think the special effect of DDl really helps there because i feel like with a different actor if mel gibson had done it or rad pitt or somebody i might be saying you know this relationship is really underwritten i don't see what how these

two are getting together but when you see that sort of like liquid masculinity of daniel day lewis moving through the forest with his muskets like of course you're gonna fall in love i mean it's that paul of tompkins joke about shooting there will be blood where it's like it's like there's a tiger on the set like when he's like when he's on there it's that Paul F. Tompkins joke about shooting there will be blood where it's like, it's like there's a tiger on the set. Like when he's like, when he's on there, it's like the most intense experience. Right. It feels, he feels like a wild animal or whatever. Like a, you know, like when you look at a majestic animal. Where does Paul F. Tompkins talk about the set of.

He has a whole bit on one of his albums about. He opens talking about. Because Magnolia is he. Oh, I got to hear that. It's very funny. Magnolia, he turned out, he ended up not being in, but he did the table read, right? Yes. With like, you know, everybody.

Because he's like friends with Paul Thomas Anderson. Because, right. Because Fiona Apple at the time and Amy Mann, they were all performing at Largo. Yeah, it was that whole early 2000s Largo set. Because of Patton Oswalt and Magnolia. Right. All those people were like in it. And then he brought him back for There Will Be Blood.

There Will Be Blood. He's in it. But he's largely out of focus. It's the opening. If they say I'm an oil man, you would agree. Right. Or if I say I was. Daniel Day-Lewis like screams in his face as he's walking out, essentially.

If you didn't know it was Paul Puckett, if you pause it, you can kind of make it out. I was flipping out in the theater to my brother. I was like, that's BFT. And everyone's like, shut up. This is opening night of There Will Be Blood. But yeah, it's like that opening monologue. The first time he talks the whole movie, because that first 20, 30-minute section is silent.

Right, just hacking away in the mind. I have a question about it. One second. No, no, I have a real question. Please. How long did he drag himself? His leg gets hurt, and he drags to go get the you know trade in the gold well that's like the beautiful thing about the movie right isn't it like people have said it's

like he's like months go by right in that right right that's like quentin tarantino's whole take on the movie is like the master stroke of the film is that you see him crawling with the broken leg and then it jumps ahead and somehow he's like survived. Right. And that from that point on, you're like, I have no idea what that guy had to do to survive, but I understand what it turned him into. And a similarly crazy jump happens, of course, when you do the jump forward in time, and suddenly he's a tycoon living in a bowling alley house.

I love it. But wait, what were we talking about? Oh, PFT just has like, it's this beautiful line where he goes like, you know, so I worked like a couple days on There Will Be Blood. And I was nervous because, you know, you would think that Donald Day-Lewis is going to be really intense. But what I was surprised to find out when I showed up on set was that he is actually the most intense person who has ever existed. That guy is so fucking intense. It's very funny.

And he calls him a live tiger. He's like, it's like there's an animal on this stage. That guy is so fucking intense. It's very funny. And he calls him a live tiger. He's like, it's like there's an animal on this stage. That's the big difference. And, you know, Costner and, or Gibson

or any of these guys could have done this role well, but it would have been a lot more about the movie star image and those guys knowing their angles and their persona.

You know, you think about the like Costner thing of like, I'm not really going to do the Robin Hood accent. I'm Kevin Costner. Right.

I'm going to do it when I feel like it. Whereas Dale Day-Lewis is like so committed to the thing that you buy the romance a little more because he's so in the movie as opposed to those guys who like become the movie. And he is also, even when he's playing monsters, a kind of weirdly sensitive actor. There's something weirdly sensitive and vulnerable about Daniel Day-Lewis, I think, even when he's playing horrible people. Agreed. Yeah. Totally. He's a very vulnerable actor.

He doesn't have a lot of vanity, like Daniel was saying, and that plays out. Because the movie asks you to buy that they fall in love because they are the stars of the movie. Because the movie asks you to buy that they fall in love because they are the stars of the movie. Like they essentially go like, well, of course, these are the two stars and they're very good looking. So they're in love, right? Like how quickly he goes like there's that scene where he's like, I'm staying here. And they're like, oh, you must be staying here for something. We're in a polka dotted dress or whatever.

You know, they make their like joke. Right. And in any other movie, you'd expect them to be like, that's not why I'm staying it's nobility it's commitment to the cause shut the fuck up right and instead he's like uh yeah that's that's why i'm staying here yeah it's all like i'm luxurious right right and so then i was like okay so now there's gonna be like 40 minutes of him protecting her not knowing how to tell her how he feels right and so the next thing he just marches over to her and're like, we're doing this. And they just kind of look at each other and then just breathe for two minutes.

I mean, that's the end of the first act. There's two acts to this movie, basically. The first part is all politics and all me opening my computer and being like, what was the French and Indian war again? And what's going on here? Like who are all these people? And Michael Mann being like you're either going to figure it out or you won't. I don't care.

The way that people talk about like people who don't like like sci-fi films and they're like I just don't know what they're talking about. I can't engage with any of this stuff. I never have that problem with sci-fi films because I'm like I know none of this is real and none of it matters. So there's nothing I'm supposed to be knowing. And then this is one of those Wikipedia movies where I'm like I know none of this is real and none of it matters sure so there's nothing I'm supposed to be knowing and then this is one of those wikipedia movies where

I'm like what am I supposed to know at this point right like how much is this like he'll give me that information later and how much of this is like I'm supposed to have read the book before I sat down you know but very early on I would say like around the time that you realize that Wes Studi's character is a double agent right is You just kind of don't care anymore because you're just riding the kind of currents of suspense and feeling. That's what I do. I just sort of, even I who am like more of a history nerd than you, I think, Griffin, like I sort of give

myself a, I'm like, look, there's English and there's French, and I guess there's American. There's a million different native tribes that are sort of being played off each other by the colonial powers and uh whatever and it helps keep it when you say it that way you know that that helps keep this from being a really retro kind of cowboys and indians movie in that there's all these conflicting forces right it's

it's indians versus indians and then like white people trying to manipulate those native white people are bad in this movie the english English are bad. The French are bad. They're bad in kind of different ways. We haven't even talked about our friend who ends up roasted and then shot

on the scaffold. Can I throw out a hot tip? That guy has a nasty accent. Considering that you think the movie's going to end with like, you know what, Cora will end up

with this guy because he's going to turn out to be like, look, you can't really stay in the wild. You've got to go back to civilization. Instead, it's like, no, he gets gets burnt up what does he say to dale day lewis when he's

walking by he has some incredible final oh you mean when he's being like dragged away dale day lewis is like i told you me to offer me right and he's like something like point taken he says something like duly noted as he's like walking to be burned alive. Actually, that makes me respect that character more because that requires some chill. He had some like an epic like off the shoulder. He says something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a good exit for him. He's pretty boring until then. But then, I mean, that seems great. I mean, he's needed in the movie, though, right? You've got to have the kind of, the bad white guy being dragged along to kind of demonstrate that point of view throughout the movie. It also, I mean, it's,

their introduction is so funny because you open with, like, this super intense action sequence where you don't know what's going on and then it turns out it's them hunting, right? And then you go to, like, this very austere, like, the two of them sitting under, like, a canopy, like, drinking tea. Or they're just, like, the middle of them sitting under a canopy drinking tea. Or they're just like

the middle of a field drinking tea and he's very casually proposing marriage to her. And she's like, I don't know you, brah. Yeah, she's like, I didn't know. And he's like, just think about it. And she's like, okay. I'm a nice guy. And she's like, fuck you. What are you talking about? This is basically

that actor, Stephen Waddington, who plays Hayward. The only thing he'd done before this is the Derek Darmond movie, Edward II. Oh, really? Like, this is basically his first, like, mainstream role. But then you have, like, Danny Day going back to the house with Tara Kinney, and everyone's just sort of going like, dude, when are you going to, like, get a girlfriend? Like, come on. Like, take it easy.

And he's like, I have no interest right i protect the factions and this whole thing being established of just like the the british and the french trying to win over the tribes right but also offering no protection right and there's this sort of self the the the survival instincts of just like why should we go fight your wars when you're not promising that anyone's could take care of our families, our homes, any of this? It was like a proxy war. You know, there was the Seven Years' War in Europe. Right.

And this was, America was like one sort of dimension of that war. And all for the Hudson River. I mean, it's kind of. Hey, it's a nice river. Well, you didn't take a swim in it? I swam in the Hudson River. river yeah when uh upstate not down state yeah what time of year in the summer okay i was gonna say you should have done july dana can you uh just just get us back on track please please

well what else what else about this movie needs to be talked about that we haven't talked about waterfalls canoes yeah the second half all right. Yeah, the second act. You said it's two acts. What's the second act? Because once the table is set, then the film does become this kind of dynamic of just like,

he's trying to keep her alive and Wes Doody is trying to catch him. Wes Doody's trying to catch him. there's a basic sort of chase mechanic that you can track. If anyone talks to Wes Doody,

he's like, I'm totally going to kill everyone and extinguish every last flame of their family. And can you remind me of his backstory? The scene where we get to hear... What's the reason that Magwa has this huge thing out for the dad

of the two girls? He hates Colonel Monroe who he calls Grey Hair specifically because that guy killed his family, I think. His whole family is gone. Yeah.

The idea that there was some. It's revenge. At one point, like the Huron were, you know, attacked by the Mohawks. And he was punished by Colonel Monroe for like drinking whiskey and like whipped, you know, and things like that. Like there's this there's all this enmity. And by the time he gets back to his Huron tribe, his wife has married someone else. That's the thing he

ends on, which we're supposed to be like, oh, I'm sorry to hear that. So I'm totally going to eat his heart and kill all his children. And it's this thing that sort of gets called out where it's like he sort of got warped

and converted partially by the Europeans. Well, right. In that big pivotal scene, that's Hawkeye's argument. He's kind of stuck in between two zones now. And he's lost his family.

He's adopted certain characteristics of the colonials, but he's still so protective of his own identity that he's just kind of like, fuck everything, fuck everything, fuck everyone, kill them all, cut their hearts out. In the book, as we were discussing, there is a

pivotal fight scene where Hawkeye wears a bear outfit, like the skin of a bear, and wrestles with Mahogwa. That sounds cool. Yeah. It's too bad they decided to leave that out, because that would be, DDL in a bear suit is something I would like to see. It sounds pretty great.

The classic here. There they are. It's in the cave. So it's an illustration from the original book. And it just looks like a bear. It's not like he's got a pelt cloaked over his shoulder. I believe it's how Hawkeye sneaks in.

It's sort of his stealth suit. Yeah, it does just look like a bear. Here's the thing that I've been thinking about. Paul Thomas Anderson, when people were asking him like, do you believe he's really going to retire? Like, what do you think about this? He was like, look, I'll say this. The guy is very lazy. Like he doesn't like working.

And I think it's because he knows how much he puts into the work. So he's very scared to do it because once he commits to something, he's going like working. Right. And I think it's because he knows how much he puts into the work. Right. So he's very scared to do it because once he commits to something, he's going to go. It kind of sucks all the light out of him. Well, it's kind of like

bipolar laziness, right? Right. He's either doing nothing or he's all out. Right. And he was like, he like, he was like,

how'd this come about? And he's like, look, we're like friends. Like we talk, we keep in touch. Yeah. I call him, we email, whatever.

And I said like, would you want to try to do something with me and the whole pitch for phantom third was like we can write it together right like by paul thomas anderson's admission he co-wrote the movie and just didn't want credit for it i remember reading about their text exchange did you hear about this when they were naming the character they were texting each other and possible names for the character and then daniel day lewis was the one who texted Reynolds Woodcock and apparently Paul Thomas Anderson dissolved in laughter

he was like that's it that's it we can't do that the house of Woodcock the way Phantom Thread was like conceived is the same way

like this podcast was conceived which is just like the two of us texting bits to each other until we were like I don't know should we do this

yeah right this is fun right so like Paul Thomas Anderson kind of like I think that this podcast is a similar artistic gift to the world

the craftsmanship is pretty much on the same level on a pure technical level fun. Right, so like Paul Thomas Anderson kind of like... I think that this podcast is a similar artistic gift to the world. Oh, no question. The craftsmanship is pretty much on the same level. Exactly, right. On a pure technical level. The tech specs of this thing. I mean, Belgian royals are always coming in to listen to this podcast. No question. But that like PTA kind of tricked him into doing the

movie by like getting him so invested in the incubation of the thing that it was like, oh, now you know, you gotta do it. But he was like, what do you think he's gonna do when he gives up? that it was like, oh, now you got to do it. But he was like, what do you think he's going to do when he gives up? And he's like, I don't know. He loves watching reality TV. And he's just on his couch all the time, and he'll call me and just be like,

I just watched Cat from Hell. Have you seen this thing? I'd love to hang out with him. I'd also be terrified to hang out with him and just try and understand what he's like as a person. He's so fun. I want to just know his media diet like i want to know like is dante lewis playing fortnight now you know maybe he is does he have kids he has kids right he's got kids yeah his son's a rapper i think oh boy he's got a switch he's big on that yeah he's into the nintendo

switch he likes uh lizzo right now oh right li. Yeah, he's playing Mario Maker. Yes. How did we get on this? You just wanted to talk about this. I just wonder what he does with his days now. I do too. Well, maybe he makes canoes because he learned how to make a canoe in this movie. Yeah. He loves jeweling. He's a mango guy. He probably does love jeweling. He probably does love jeweling.

How old is he? 62. He looks so good he looks great i mean he has so much of his life ahead to do interesting stuff god bless him i just hope that one day right that he i think he's gonna come or maybe he texts dane uh paul thomas anderson he's like you know what what if we did a movie about you know a guy who lived in the arctic or something i don't know he has some insane idea i mean he's done six movies this millennium he has done six films since 2000 in total right which is pretty low for someone of his stature yeah six right and they're long gaps and there are a couple times where he did them close together a weird outlier is nine

nine's a weird movie because it feels weird that he does nine that quickly after there will be blood and i also would argue that's like it shows it's one of his worst performances yeah and it's like the accent's bad and you're just like does does he just need that much time like is i completely blocked out that movie i made nine it's a bad movie and with rob marshall you know like he would it would be like he's working with Scorsese again, he's working with Paul. Like, it would always be like, he's working with this extremely, like, important director. And it was announced as Bardem, right, after Bardem had won the Oscar. And then Bardem dropped out, and they were like, well, now they're not going to make it. Who could replace Bardem?

And it was like, in a crazy turn of events, Daniel Day-Lewis is dropping into the film in active pre-production. Like, he signed on, like, months before the film was starting production. And he's a guy who's like, I need three years in the woods and then I'll get back. Right. He had to make eight and a half movies. And he made a movie where he's like singing and dancing the whole time. And where he's like sort of doing an Italian accent. That must've been why he took it,

right? It must've just been like, this is a lark and it's so different from anything I've ever done. I've never done a musical. I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like so odd. And then he doesn't do anything until Lincoln. And he was like, I didn't want to do Lincoln.

Spielberg had to like beat me down. Does he ever say he did want to do any of his movies? I think he wanted to do Gangs of New York. Although that was his other big gap. Because that was after The Boxer. He was like, maybe I'm done. The Boxer was the one where he was like maybe I'm retired. Right. That was a long

gap. And Boxer was after like a couple years of like He did The Crucible. After this movie he does Age of Innocence, In the Name of the Father, The Crucible, The Boxer. And then that's his 90s. Then he goes and he makes some shoes. Then he makes some shoes. Right. And then 2000s is Gangs of New York, then Jack and Rose.

Right. Then... There Will Be Blood. There Will Be Blood, Nine. Lincoln. Lincoln and Phantom Thread. It's quite a career. Yeah.

So in the latter half of Last of the Mohicans, I don't know, they're running around and stuff. I mean, it really becomes a chase movie, right? It becomes a chase movie. The politics go away. After the scene it becomes personal the englishman treats with the frenchman yeah which is a good scene uh you know where the frenchman's like what can i say i mean sure we can have peace okay you know like that weird is that the translation scene uh no not the trend remember when the the english

colonel and the french colonel guy like have likelay over the siege. Right. Isn't that when Wes Studi kind of explains his backstory when they're like, so what's your deal? That's when after that where the Frenchman's like, look, I made peace. I can't kill these guys anymore. Wes Studi's like, this is why I hate the gray hair and this is what I'm gonna do to him. And the Frenchman's kind of like, look, if a bunch of

Huron guys happen to attack, not my problem. But the French can't attack. We struck a treaty over here. We have a ceasefire or whatever. Right. It's a weird like Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend movie where everyone's working against their self-interest. Because then you have the scene where all the English are leaving the fort. They're going to the other fort and they get like, you know, ambushed on both sides.

The big, that's the lot of running. That's when Daniel Day-Lewis just sort of gets the girls out of there. That's a great action scene i just remember the the column of english and then like that long shot where you see them being savage from both sides it makes you understand kind of uh old warfare in a way that movies don't often do and like also right the sort of order the like regiment of the english you know like cutting through and how useless that was like vietnam right so useless in the guerrilla wild. Coming from wild nature. Yes.

My favorite thing is when they're all firing their rifles. Yes. And the plumes of smoke are coming out. The smoke is everywhere. And there's so many shots that you stop being able to see. That's what I love too. That feels like such a Michael Mann thing. The fog of war. Yeah.

Where he'd be like, you wouldn't be able to see anything almost immediately because the gunpowder would be so like, and it would probably stink. It's like all that stuff. Right. But that constant critique that's being made of action sequences, which 99% of the time is true, that you don't know what's going on

and it's too noisy and it's too jumbled. It's true in every superhero movie. It's so not true when Michael Mann directs action. Right, right, totally. You know, at that point is when he takes them to the waterfall and he gives the sort of like, don't die speech.

Before the speech there's a great waterfall moment that happens where they go over the smaller waterfall remember? And the English guy doesn't think he's going to be able to do it and it's almost like this weird canoe empowerment moment where he does manage to do it as well. This is just kind of like a ride. And then they get into the other waterfall and that's like alright, okay, no more waterfalls.

But even there you think there's going to be suspense about are they going over the big waterfall instead they just port their canoes in two seconds yeah I don't know this is also

it's like in the anirondacks baby this is a very very pre-TLC movie I think they're chasing waterfalls for almost two hours straight

they didn't Jesus Christ there was no warning to heat and Ben minds me getting a bucket come on like Candice LeBron Bergen I get buckets why are we doing that There was no warning to heat and Ben minds me getting a bucket. Come on. Like Candice LeBron-Vergine.

You're a podcaster in the room, you're doing that? Mago chops out the guy's heart at that ambush scene. Yeah, and I love that he knocks the guy down and then they cut to this wider shot where what he's doing is obscured by another dead Englishman's body. Right. And you just see him like really digging in. You don't see it.

You don't see it. And even when Hawkeye recounts it later, he says, I saw it from afar. There's almost like this dignity given to that act. Yes. But then they cut in close to this low angle and you're like, oh, no, now we're seeing everything. Here's a heart in his hand. He's covered in blood.

I wonder if some of that was an economic decision, like we don't want to build an entire wax torso or something. Maybe a ratings decision. Is this an R or a PG-13? Because this movie is never quite like so violent that it... No, it was not. It was rated R.

Yeah, G. It's rated R. Yeah, G. Yeah, right. It's rated R. This is also, uh, he does a lot of really weird, uh, like, first-person POV, uh, stuff in this movie. Mm-hmm. In, like, coverage, where a lot of the times, especially when there's gunfighting,

so often it's, like, like the great train robbery, like, straight into the lens, the actor, like, looking down the barrel and pointing the gun. And then there's one of the scenes where like Daniel Day-Lewis and Madeline Stowe are kind of falling for each other. And the way he breaks up the coverage is Daniel Day-Lewis is exclusively in profile and Madeline Stowe is like entirely head on. Right. Staring straight into the camera. And it's like you're watching her fall in love with him but it looks

like you're seeing it like she's falling in love with you and that just cuts out to daniel day lewis just being like yep yep profiles were important back then though you know like you say like mandolin so he's got a face for a cameo yeah she's got such an old-fashioned face she's perfect for that kind of period she's like unbelievable eyes great eyes like incredible movie eyes but then west 32 has this like, unbelievable eyes, too. Great eyes. Like, incredible movie eyes. But then Wes 3D, too, has this, like, incredible profile. Yeah, he could be on a coin. 100%. Daniel Day-Lewis is one of the greatest profiles ever.

Daniel Day-Lewis looks like... The bridge of his nose is, like, insane. Right, he looks like the Muppet who's an eagle. He has that, like, sort of... He looks like a falcon. Right, and he's got those... Like, he's got a beak. Those sort of lines, the indents underneath the cheekbones, you know, where his cheeks get sunken in.

He's like, he does, I mean, it makes sense. Like, the Lincoln thing makes so much sense because they both just have such strong faces. Strong face. Yeah. And then, so, yes. Magwa captures the ladies, takes them to his chief, his sachem. Who plays that guy, actually? Because that guy's kind of good.

Dennis Banks, I think, is his name. Yes. Another longtime leader in AIM. So, again, probably this was his first movie, basically. I wonder if he and Russell Means had some backstage tips about what AIM was supposed to be. I mean, yeah. You know, Meansic schweig who

plays uncas like they're in the movie a lot they don't have a ton to do exactly no um but they're they're always sort of there uh i feel like because there's the uncas romance with um alice is mostly unspoken like it's mostly just a few glances right like yeah that's the b story yeah it's very much the B story. Right. Neither of them talk much. No. Combined, they might have less than 10 lines of dialogue.

I mean, this could almost be a silent movie when you think about it. Yeah, it could totally be a silent movie. You'd only need some titles in the first half to establish the political stuff. The second half could be dialogue-free. That's what's so weird about Michael Mann being this guy who's all about verisimilitude, But that's what's so weird about, like, Michael Mann being this guy who's all about, like, verisimilitude, picking a book that is so sort of pulpy, and then not even adapting that book, but, like, remaking the pulpy movie he saw based on it as a kid. Right. And he's just sort of making a more intense version of, like, I mean, remember, there's a Roger Ebert review that's really interesting where he was positive on the movie. Right.

There's a Roger Ebert review that's really interesting where he was positive on the movie. And Roger Ebert was a big Michael Mann fan. But he was sort of saying there's been so much talk in the press about how much research they did and how historically accurate it is and how they built all the weapons. And they hired like a thousand Native American actors. Right. Michael Mann and Dante Lewis lived in a cave for four years and whatever. And he's like, this is like an old-fashioned adventure movie. Right. Like it's very much like a popcorn sort yeah sort of like kids story you know and the way the period stuff looks accurately researched but also in a very 90s way that you wouldn't see now it looks like everybody just walked out of the costume shop right right everyone's got beautiful

makeup on too like and all that right right it's like very operatic in that sort of sense and like shiny in hollywood um it is weird that it's just like them committing themselves like wholly towards like some like adventure fiction yeah apparently i'm reading the eber review now that man said that the the 36 movie was his first movie memory so i guess it was like a crucial movie. But this is like the King Kong thing for me. Like you watch that movie and it's like Peter Jackson like pontificating for like four hours about King Kong. And then people are like, did we watch this? I don't think most of those scenes are in that.

And this just feels like the same thing where like this must have been the formative thing for Michael Mann. And he has this movie playing in his head all the time. And he's like like I want to make the movie that's in my head I think it worked better for him than for Peter Jackson I have to say I don't think this movie stands up great but I like things about it like Naomi Watts' performance

and of course Andy Serkis incredible but in general I felt like that movie was a failure I love it we're going to talk about it at some point I really adore Watts' performance in that though. And that was in that era where you were like, could Watts be like our next sort of Cate Blanchett, like great leading lead?

Right. And then after that, I feel like she kept getting sort of crappy roles. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like that's the moment for her where you're like, this person can do anything. I remember her doing Crest where she was like-

She's acting against an apple. Right. You know, like all that stuff. I thought she was going to she was like... She's acting against an apple. Right. You know, like all that stuff. I thought she was going to win the Oscar for that. Oh, that's crazy. That's the Reese Witherspoon walk the line year, which we agree that Reese Witherspoon's the business. I love her in that movie. I think she's fine in that movie.

I understand. I would give Reese Witherspoon two Oscars for other films. Sure. You know? I understand. But I think that performance is fine. And when I saw King Kong, I was like, well, well this is like undeniable I do not like King Kong I would happily watch it once of it is undeniable yeah sure you're gonna watch it again someday because we're doing I'm

ready to do Peter Jackson I'm ready for him I had I fell out of love with him and now I'm sort of like now now that Hollywood is gone where it's gone, I am nostalgic for his franchise-driven era. You know what I mean? It was a better franchise-driven era. Did you see that recent news nugget that Warner Brothers offered him Aquaman five times? Yeah, they kept calling him and been like, you've never heard of this guy,

but he lives in the sea. And Peter Jackson's like, I told you I'm not doing Aquaman. Is that Aquaman guy again? Right. But they just kept on like, it's the other thing where like, apparently they keep on offering these movies to like Zemeckis. Zemeckis, right. That all of these guys are just constantly like,

if we can get one of these dudes. Sure. Surely they'll knock it out of the park. Right. Don't they want to go back to making like. But I interviewed Zemeckis for Allied. Yeah. And he was very.

He was like, I hate that shit. Yeah. Because I was like, why did you make this movie? Right. And he was like, because we don't make these movies anymore and I hate that shit. Yeah. Because I was like, why did you make this movie? Right. And he was like, because we don't make these movies anymore. And I hate all this superhero garbage.

Like he was very grumpy and very like straightforward about it. And I think Jackson, like, I don't know. Like he doesn't seem to have. Jackson I think is in that period where he's like, I'll do something if I want to do it. Right. Otherwise forget it. But he's so much more interested in like converting old footage. Yeah. You know? Did you see his Weird War documentary? I weird war documentary i know you know i really want to see it because

the colorizing thing sounds fascinating it's pretty fast it didn't play on big screens long enough and i wanted to see it like a very much a special event kind of presentation it will show it'll roll out yeah for like 10 a.m yeah at some theater yeah it's cool i saw it with like the 3d glasses and everything and it was yeah it's cool yeah the big scene that I've already said that I love so much is at the end yes

is him treating with his chief you got Hawkeye there he kind of just walks in Hawkeye's move is just he walks in and people keep like punching him

and he's like whatever can I point out the thing about him walking in is that he finds them so quickly yes

right like after the huge romantic speech that everybody's like trembling in the cave. My girlfriend's objection was this too. She's like, oh.

He says, however long it takes. And it seems like in the movie time, I mean, even in the real time of the movie's world, it couldn't have taken

more than a day or two. It's like the next morning. No, but he's been watching them. I mean, he goes to the town. It is set up in the movie because he's been watching them from the crow's nest where he was supposed

to take the shot at Thor. What? Is this a Hawkeye joke now? It is a hawkeye joke yes i think he just goes to the settlement that's his move right yeah he's like i guess he'll take him there yes then he just goes there he gets one punch right someone clubs him he gets like cut in the chest i love that when he's like walking in and people are hitting him and he's like okay i know yeah right and then why is it not worse why is he not just murdered by mob violence at that moment i think they're surprised that he's not coming in on the defensive i think they expect that a guy who has clearly like broken so many like rules at this point wouldn't like

come in like right he's sort of coming in likezing. Hey, I'm just here to talk. Right. So they're like testing him and they're like, what if we hit him in the back of the head? And he doesn't respond. And he's like,

please don't. And then they just keep on attacking him until they finally sort of grab him. And you have this incredible scene that speaks to the sort of

colonial mess of the Adirondack Mountains and like New York and America, right? Where some of the Native Americans like the Huron speak French and the Mohicans speak English and the English

speak French and like you know like where like everyone speaks and like there's not one common language no but he's like saying to the English guys like you speak French right I don't speak Huron so like you say this into French so you use your second language to speak to them in their second language and the whole argument is over

like are we being too French right are we becoming like those French people with we being the Hurons like Hawkeye is saying to them like Magwa is being real French right now he's being real colonial which is funny that a white guy is the one to be like

hey bro like I'm salt to the earth you're the one who's getting bro, I'm salt to the earth. You're the one who's getting all like, I'm going to wipe out my enemies. But that's the argument that's being had. You're right that the layers of languages are great in that scene. And man doesn't make too big a deal of it. He doesn't cut back and forth constantly

between who's translating. You just hear this web of sound. It's almost like the Sound Academy Award was earned just by that one scene. They won that Oscar. And the chief kind of tries to play Solomon. He's sort of like, all right, you can kill one daughter. Yeah.

Right? You kill one, you marry the other. Is everyone cool with that? And the guy can go back because I don't care about him. Yeah. You know, because he's sort of unrelated. And so then both men are like, no, I'll sacrifice myself for the

lady and... What's his name? Waddington? That's the actor. Hayward. Hayward sort of as translator. It works because up until this point you're just sort of like, why is this guy still in the movie?

He's dead weight. He's a Baxter. You know? And then you're like sort of like why is this guy still in the movie he's dead weight he's a baxter right you know a baxter yeah and then like you're like pretty cool move yeah rather than the other version of this in these stories whereas the scorned guy turns villains right right right in a strange way you end up even though that guy's been kind of a jerk and kind of dead weight the whole time narratively you really feel for him when he's you know tied to the stake and burned alive and then there's that incredible mercy long shot from DDL it's really good and you also get like

this movie so saves itself I think in the last 20 minutes I like the movie I like watching it it's fun but I agree with you guys it's sort of messy it feels old fashioned

but then the ending is all these like kind of where you're like oh I forgot right I forgot this happens right like the ending kind of just

almost with the ending kind of just... Almost with the ending being from when he jumps off the waterfall on. Like, that's sort of where I would clock it. Totally. And this also, like, this is when you get into the classic Michael Mann territory, which is, like, I feel like so many of his movies come down to, like, how do you walk away from this? Right.

Like, ending with some scene and the weight of that scene and just going, like, what do the characters do now? Right. How do they ever shake this off? You know? What was the other thing I was going to say? I don't remember.

I don't know, the big chase. I mean, then it's just the chase. Yes. It's just Uncas going after Jodie Mae, going after,

I keep forgetting her name, Alice, Jesus. Right? Like, that's the end. Is the West Studio showdown. Oh,

what I was going to say is for, for Waddington, whatever his name is, it must be like so frustrating because at the beginning of the movie, it's like, here's a proper proposal. Look at that.

Here's your tea. Nice table. So what do you think? And she's like, I don't know you well enough. And he's like, fucking come. How much time,

how much legwork do I have to put in there? And then like, she's with Dale Day-Lewis today. And she's like, yeah, I'm pretty sure this is the guy. Right, right. Hawkeye, your name is? Right, right. Natty? He's like, this guy's been around, like, eight hours.

Call me Mrs. Bumpo. Yeah. Do you guys like the last fights? I don't know. I do. I mean, it- Mia Uncas versus- I just, I like how-

Jesus,agwa. I like how messy it gets. But I also, he does the weird thing. I mean, you talk about the action being clean. It's also like the weird sparseness of it because it is still a time where there are like rules of conduct. Sure. is still a time where there are like rules of conduct sure so when you like cut out wide to like the side of the cliff and it's just like two guys kind of just like oh right kind of wrestling and everyone else is just kind of standing back watching well i have to point out that it also

it's consciously or no it harks back to the many many action movies superhero movies among them that end on top of a yes building right instead of? Instead of duking it out on a skyscraper, they're duking it out on this cliff edge. Right, and then like, yeah, Mission Impossible does this, where they literally just go like, let's just make it a cliff edge again in Fallout. But it is, it's that trope of like, oh, you have to have your final fight at a great elevation so that you can kill off your bad guy. And it has to be man-to-man. Non-gruesome way

but you know they're dead. You just push them off. Which seems like that's disappearing a bit more. People used to fall from high places a lot more often in movies than they do now. Classic Disney exit too. Again, non-gory. And plus it's just a stunt that always looks good on a big screen

of someone falling through the air. Black Panther, he just leaves him at the top of the waterfall. That's kind of an interesting twist of it. Well, but in, no, he knocks Black Panther off the waterfall. No, I'm saying the final moment.

Spoilers for Black Panther. You mean the final moment. Yeah, sure. But when they're there at the waterfall and he's like, we can treat you and Michael B. Jordan's like,

no, I'm cool. I don't want to like live in a cage. And then he just leaves him there like dead at the waterfall. Right. It's a nice, it's kind of a nice version. kind of nice he doesn't push him off a good movie um so do you guys you guys find the scene where alice kills herself to be a little uh problematic or because i really that's like i kind of love that i kind of love it too i mean in the world that the movie has set up it makes it makes complete sense it's kind of the only choice

it sucks sure it's the only choice she gets to make it's the only choice she can make with any autonomy at that moment in the film and in a weird way

she's romantically joining Uncas at the bottom of the cliff of course it's very capital R romantic as an exit but I also just love how Wes Judy plays it

where he's looking at her with like basically bafflement like before she throws herself off or he's like you know come on yeah and then he kind of such a great moment he just like motions over his own okay uh yeah and when she does it he like plays like a weird sort of respect on his face like he doesn't change his face that much yeah but it is like where he's like oh i i right

there was like honor in what she did even though I don't I never thought about her as anything but like the seed of my hated you know colonial master right you know I mean Hawkeye knows better than anyone suicide is painless it's mash I had to get mash well he is named after Hawkeye from these books

oh really Pierce yes that makes sense yeah so there you go. That is fascinating. For some reason. I don't know why. Weird. Because his name is Benjamin Franklin in Match.

Benjamin Franklin Pierce, yeah. Benjamin Franklin Pierce. Weird. That's like the weird. And they call him Hawkeye. Yeah. Yeah, he's given the nickname from the character in The Last of the Mohicans, the only book my old man ever read. Wow.

Can I tell you some of the other names that Nathaniel Bumpo gets in these books? Please. They're amazing. Bumpo has gone by the aliases Straight Tongue, The Pigeon, The Lap Ear. After obtaining his first rifle, he gained the Sobriquet Deer Slayer, which is the name of one of the books. Sure, right. The last book. The last one, right.

He's subsequently known as Hawkeye and La Longue Carabine, the long gun. In The Last of the Mohicans, he's known as Pathfinder and the Pathfinder. And he is known throughout as Leatherstocking, which is the name

of the whole series. Oh, and The Trapper. So those are all his epithets. Those are good. A lot of epithets. I think half of those names were at Coachella last year. Right?

Leatherstocking! Yeah, Deerslayer. Certainly. I want, I want people to call me straight tongue, but has he graduated a certain titles over the course of different mini series? Uh,

such as the pigeon, the pigeons, good lap beer. Why is he the pigeon detective? You've got to read the whole series to see. Cause it's like shitting on people's heads. Um, and then the final fight

is Hawkeye has to just stand over there because the final fight is his his adoptive dad right like that is

you know they kind of they let the book plot take over right like you know he's just gonna watch he's gonna watch

at what point does the title get uttered I am the last of the Mohicans isn't it like right at the end I think it's when he's yeah I thought right at the end? I think it's when he's yeah, I thought it was when they're in front of the chief. I think it's when Uncas is still alive.

Uncas is there when he says that. Because I remember thinking that he couldn't be the last of the Mohicans at that moment because Uncas was still alive. But maybe I'm not remembering where he said that. Well, he gives this speech right at the end where he says I'm the last of the Mohicans. To the gods, take my son and tell them there is all but one I am the last of the Mohicans. His son is the last of the Mohicans. To like the gods, like take my son and tell them there is all but one I am the last of the Mohicans.

Right. His son is the last of the Mohicans. If he had lived. Right. Like the idea is that he could continue. Well, he can't though because there are no other Mohicans left for him to, like there's no member of the Mohican tribe anymore. Right. So it would be an inter marriage or whatever.

So what is the affect we're left to walk out of this movie with i mean it's got a big romantic hollywood ending and yet it's dark as hell the world they're going to it's like my sister just killed herself my son has just been horribly slaughtered and the world is on fire as one of alice's only lines or no is that i forget one of the one maybe madeline stowe says uh world's on fire how about yours that's why i like it i never get bored that's the final line. But it's just like the ending of Heat, where it's like, you got him. And then Al Pacino is like a shell of himself. You know what I mean?

Like so many of these movies. It's the how do you walk away from this thing. Yes, how do you walk away from it? Right. It's the opposite of a happy ending. It's like the characters succeed, and then you see how thoroughly the events have broken them

it's a hollow success collateral of the last shot is Jamie Foxx holding Jada Pinkett Smith as they stumble away usually there are survivors they're kind of the heroes the fundamental one for me the one I think of as the perfect Michael Mann ending

is the final shot of Miami Vice is just Jamie Foxx in the shower by himself. Right? And it's just like... No, no, no. It's not. The final shot of Miami Vice is Colin Farrell going into the hospital to see Jamie Foxx. The shower is earlier. I promise. Weird.

That whole end section of Miami Vice where it's like, they've won. Also, Jamie Foxx will never get over this. Yeah, right. Like, Naomi Harris isn't coming back and he's just like broken. It's such a weird way to end. Like, here's your summer blockbuster based off a populist TV show.

And I think that's like his takeaway is just like, these events aren't clean things in people's lives. If an event is big enough to warrant a movie, it's not the kind of thing that you can then pack away neatly and just put on a shelf and move on. Right. I mean, I guess in a way

you could say that all those endings you're mentioning, all the Michael Mann endings, they bring back that line, stay alive no matter what occurs. Right? I mean, it's just about pure survival. That's the goal. And they do survive. Right. And that's like the question he asks at the end of every movie is like, so what does their life look like now? Yeah.

Right. You know, that makes me think about sequels and how odd it was. I mean, in our time, this would unquestionably have a sequel. Second to last of the Mohicans. Right. Exactly. The first of the something else. Right.

I don't know. Or a prequel. Like there are still 10 more Mohicans. No, definitely. It was a hit movie. Right. And it's based on a series of books. So the plots are right there. Like, there are still 10 more Mohicans. No, definitely. It was a hit movie, right? And it's based on a series of books, so the plots are right there.

They would have announced this as a potential franchise starter. Yeah, and frickin', you know, give me an actor. Nicholas Holt would have played, you know, Captain whatever in a post-credit scene or whatever. Yeah, Jai Courtney would show up, whatever. Yeah. It would be like Lord of, I mean, King Arthur or whatever. It would be like King Arthur. They'd cross over with Mandrake the Magician. I mean, this is, I assume this book is so old that I could do one today, right?

It must be public domain. We should add it to the slate, the Blink Check picture. Yeah, we're rebooting Last of the Mohicans. I'm sure that won't be problematic at all. We have a really sensitive actor in mind, culturally sensitive actor in mind to play Hawkeye. It's Ben Hosling. I think it would be good.

Let's play the box office game. September 25th, 1992, Griffin. I know my way around a ditch. Yeah, I know. Griffin, you hear that? September 25th, 1992. 1992, the last of the Mohicans opened to $10 million at the box office. Huge opening.

It's going to make $75 million domestic. Which adjusted is like $150 million. $10 million at the box office. Huge open. It's going to make $75 million domestic. Which adjusted is like $150 million. $160 million. Oh. So it was a hit. It was a big hit. Number two is a movie I have a lot of fondness for.

They don't make them like this anymore. An old guy... I couldn't even call it an action movie. An old guy crime thriller, but it's like a very light thriller it's a light thriller and it's not old guy he's you know he's a older like 50s yeah right so he's a big actor huge actor huge ensemble like so many famous people in this movie. Sneakers, is it? Sneakers. Oh, sneakers. Phil Alden Robinson's Sneakers. Past guest, Ray Centauri's

favorite movie of all time. Can I just say the magazine that I work for, Slate, is so fond, editorially fond of sneakers that they once devoted an entire issue to sneakers. It was just covering it from every possible angle. It's a great movie. Sneakers fucks really hard. Is it about shoes

or is it about like tiptoeing? Ben, it's about people who sneak. Yes. It's hacking. It's early hackers. It's early.

It's hacking. The cast? Robert Redford. Yep. Sidney Poitier. Yep. Dan Aykroyd. That's right.

River Phoenix. David Strathairn. David Strathairn. A blind David Strathairn. Yep. Mary McDonnell. Yep. Ben Kingsley. Ben Kingsley.

Ben Kingsley? Yeah. You got them all. Ray Tintori has a custom-made, spray-painted sneakers denim jacket where he bought a denim jacket and had someone spray-paint the poster from sneakers on the back.

All right. Who was it that directed sneakers? Phil Alden Robinson. It's his follow-up to Field of Dreams, which is another movie i like and after that he doesn't make a movie until he makes a jack ryan movie 10 years later he makes the sum of all fears with ben affleck yeah and then like 12 years after that he made the angriest man in brooklyn which like never came out like a robin williams movie and that's it like he's one of

those guys where i couldn't even tell you how he works like does he just have the money and he doesn't care I have no idea I don't know how like how his career is so weird yeah I mean I have to imagine Phil that would be a good weekend at the movies see Last of the Mohicans and then maybe like sneak into the theater sneak into sneakers all of the movies in the top five are all right so number three it's a Disney comedy but it's for it's like a pg-13 comedy with a huge star two huge stars proper disney or like touchdown uh good question i actually think it's touchdown because it's a pg-13 sort of a saucy uh aquatic comedy that's a saucy aquatic comedy. That's a saucy aquatic comedy? Yeah, it's Touch Snow. It's not Splash.

No. Aquatic. Yeah. It's wet. Is it a boat based? It's a boat movie. It's a boat. It's not Captain Ron. It's Captain Ron. It's Captain Ron! I was going to say Speed 2. Well, that's a little later. Speed 2, Cruise Control. That's coming up. Captain Ron, part of

Ben Hosley's Porch Classics series. You got Kurt Russell. That's coming up. Captain Ron, part of Ben Hosley's Porch Classics series. You got Kurt Russell, you got Martin Short. Who else is in Captain Ron? His gold label VHS line. Who's the... I filled out a hole

watching the first 30 minutes of Captain Ron. It's on HBO. It was on TV. I was watching it with my girlfriend, TC-14. All right. Yeah. All right. Number four is it was on TV I was watching it with my girlfriend TC4 alright

yeah alright number three of the number four sorry is it's like a serious comedy it's new this week serious comedy

yes pick one it's a comedy slash drama a dramedy yeah from a big comedy star I think he wrote

he may have directed is it a Billy Crystal yes is it Mr. Saturday Night Mr. Saturday Night you are Big comedy star. I think he wrote, he may have directed. Is it Billy Crystal? Yes. Is it Mr. Saturday Night? Mr. Saturday Night, you are on fire. Thank you. That's a movie.

How do you hone that skill? Do you just sit around and peruse box office records? I mean, first of all, I do. It's one of my favorite pastimes. He genuinely does. I genuinely do. The second thing is my father and I would read the box office top ten Monday

morning every week because I've now told this story like 17 times. My father loves sports and he loves sports scores and that was the ritual my father and my brother had together. So that was the, hey dad, let's make a lane where we can bond with each other. So like every

box office from like 1996 on i remember viscerally uh reading through it with him and now it's like still one of the main things we talk about it's just like good hold on that uh we have a great relationship um i'm on fire tape mr saturday night's a movie i'm like fascinated me too but it's also one of those movies that i'm always like this is good. Like it has to be. And then you turn it on. You're like, right.

No, no, it's not actually good. I remember seeing it. It's really sappy, right? It's very sappy. It's way too long. So long. It's Billy Crystal. You know what I mean?

Like at the end of the day, you're like, oh, is this like his darker movie? And you realize like he can't not be a sap. Well, that's the problem. That's just so part of him. He's playing a guy whose problem is that he's a sap and an asshole. It feels like it should be his introspective movie, but then it's this weird note of

it's a guy who got stuck in the middle. The whole take on the movie is on the way to the top, he got stuck in the middle. But then the movie's about him being re-evaluated late in life. So there's this whole like corny angle to it. David Pamer like rules in it. I was just Googling David Pamer's name

because I was remembering how great the brother was in that movie. And that was the whole thing was they were like, this is Billy's big swing. This is his dances with wolves. Billy's going to get director, picture, screenplay, actor.

And everyone was like, hold the crystal, give me Pamer. Like Pamer's just like in the pocket. Did he get nominated? David Pamer. No, Pplay, actor. And everyone was like, hold the crystal, give me Pamer. Like Pamer's just like in the pocket. Did he get nominated? No, Pamer got nominated. Pamer was like the only nomination the movie got. I just remember watching it like fairly young on TV with my parents. And I was like, is this good?

Like it was like so. It seems like stately. It's like epic and it's self-important. And it's like clearly like expensive. And I was like, is this a good movie? And they were like, I don't know, like not really. But we just like watched the whole thing on TV at my grandparents' house. And I was like, when's this from?

They were like two years ago. Like I don't know what this, like the deal with this thing is. It's like a weird, like it goes back and forth between him as a bitter old man and like he's got an old age makeup and all that weird fucking movie and it's sort of based on an snl skit sure isn't did this character once as like an just an old-timey comedian like a borscht bell comedian and then like post uh you know city slickers or whatever, he was like, I'm cashing in my check. I'm making this a two and a half hour fucking melodrama. What a weird guy. He's a weird guy.

That's an example of I would love to do that as a one-off episode. Has he directed any other movies? There's the one, there's the Paris one with Deborah Winger. Forget Paris? Yeah, and maybe he directed one other movie. He directed that TV movie about the Yankees. He was one of those guys where he went to NY... Oh, he likes the Yankees?

I don't know if you know this, Bill Kristol used to go to the Yankees with his dad. 700 Sundays! Bill Kristol! He went to NYU for film school, and he was like, I'm going to be a director, that's what I want to be, and then sort of fell into comedy and acting.

So when he got so big, he was like, well, now I finally get to do what I always wanted to do, direct. And everyone was like, no me gusta. Try again. Yeah.

Number five, just to finish, is a movie we've covered on this very podcast, a classic of 1992, so rooted in its era, a comedy, a generational comedy

Ben's looking at the monitor he's nodding in agreement maybe not a great movie I remember that I made a good joke on this episode oh oh I know what movie it is

what? what is it? I'm joking I'm saying off of Ben making a good joke I was gonna recall it generational like intergenerational?

no like it's about a generation. Singles? Nice. I was going to say Reality Bites, but that's a little bit later. Which is, of course, the exact same vibe. Probably a better movie. Are you a singles person or a Reality Bites person?

I mean, honestly, I'm very Gen X in that I kind of sneered at them both at the time. Because they were trying to be like, finally, they're telling their own story. Generation X, here for you on the big screen. And we're still doing it in that big dumb Gen X package from the New York Times Magazine. I think probably re-watching them now, I would probably prefer Reality Bites because I just love a Winona. But I don't think I was that big

on either one. No. I am not big on either one either, but I guess I'll take... Reality Bites is a little more of a movie. Singles is kind of just like... It's kind of bullshit. bullshit i mean it's kind of fun but like it doesn't really amount to much rally bites is the one i think i prefer but after re-watching singles for this podcast i never want to watch reality bites again sure because i also thought i liked singles a lot yeah yeah abandon hope all ye who enter here like right right i went through my big uh uh gen x period in 2003 and got really into both of those movies.

Ben, what's the great joke you made on the Singles episode? He tries to kill himself on a suicide. That's a totally different movie. That's Elizabethtown. That's a totally different movie. You thought Singles had a suicide in it? That's when Cameron Crowe's lost the plot. That joke was worth reviving.

It was. The suicide cycle. Have you seen Elizabethtown, Dana? No. At the beginning of the film, Orlando Bloom is so despondent because of the failure of the shoe he designed. He designed a blank check sneaker. Yeah, he designed like the Ed Zola sneakers.

Yes. Like it was supposed to change the world but he forgot to put in the soul or something no soul if only the film

had that nuance of writing honestly yeah yes but he makes like the Ishtar of sneakers

and it blows up in his face and every front page of every newspaper is like can you believe the failure

of the sneaker and he goes home and he's got like an exercise bike and he takes a large kitchen knife, like a huge like sort of like chopping knife and duct tapes it to the handle of the exercise bike

so that he can pedal the bike and then it will stab him. The way the handles move back and forth. Here is the bad shoe. Which is from our Wikipedia page. Spasmodica. There it is. But so he attempts to kill himself.

Is there ever any mockery of that suicide method in the movie? Absolutely not. He's alone in an apartment. He's played for Sirius, yeah. Okay, I guess I gotta do this. Or Linda Bloom doing one of the worst American accents of all time. He sounds like Thomas the Tenten. He sounds like a cartoon tugboat.

He's like, okay, here we go. I guess I'm going to commit suicide. What's the most efficient method? Right. Duct tape, two handle, pedals, tests it out, gets ready, sits in the chair, and then he gets the phone call from Judy Greer saying that his dad died. And then the movie is sometimes you got to go home to figure out where. God, that movie is unconscionable.

It remains the worst film we've ever discussed on this podcast. David, right, so David recently said he thinks it's the worst film we've discussed in four, almost going on five years of doing this show. Yeah, yeah. Four and a half years now. Because what the top three, or rather the bottom three,

Last Airbender? Sure. The Shaman, yeah. Right. Last Airbender. Sure. The Shaman, yeah. Right. You said Lisbetown. Yeah. And then, did you open the book? Did you open the book? No, no.

I forget what the other one was now. It wasn't Spanglish. You offered Spanglish, but that doesn't... I'll do anything? Maybe. I don't remember. I don't remember. I'll do anything.

It's terrible. I mean, I think Book of Henry is the worst one. All right. So, that's it. We're done. That's it. Good episode do anything. It's terrible. I mean, I think Book of Henry is the worst one. All right. So that's it. We're done. That's it. Good episode, guys. We're done.

We did it. Right? That's it. This is how we end every episode, Dana, is that we decide whether we're done. Do I have to attach an apology to this episode? To me. Yes. And Griffin and Dana.

Right. Dana, let's plug your podcast again. Yeah, let's flashback to earlier in the episode When we were talking about Flashback Yes, you can hear me on Flashback or on the Slate Culture Gab Fest Which is a weekly culture podcast That is free

You also have a producer, Ben Yes, we do And Ben is very nice for friends And I want to give him a shout out Alright, I will give him a hi from the other Ben Yeah Their show is like I've been on their show and it's like and I want to give them a shout out. All right. I will give them a hi from the other Ben. Yeah. Their show is like,

you know, it's like, I've been on their show and it's like, they cut it together and it's so professional and it's like, no, you're very professional.

You're very professional. Clearly, I'm beeping. It's more our style. It's, you know, we're just sort of, we're just sort of chatting.

This is great. This is like the podcast equivalent of like having a drink on the beach. It's so fun. Hey, put that pull quote on the poster pull quote got it alright

but yeah so flashback grab fest your book but that's not all and read my movie reviews on slate if you so choose hi sign on twitter you're one of the best writers out there I'm eagerly looking forward to the Buster Keaton book and then hopefully we'll have you back on to talk Buster Keaton book. And then hopefully, hopefully we'll have you back on

to talk Buster Keaton at some point when I win this battle. Sure. I'll vote in that bracket. Nice. Very nice. I don't know. We can do Keaton sometime.

Do you have a favorite? Is there one you would want to claim? I mean, when somebody's like one of your favorite artists, it kind of changes. You know what I mean? Is there a movie I would claim? I might want to do a few shorts. I think what I would want to do is like one of your favorite artists it kind of changes you know what i mean uh is there a movie i would claim i might want to do a few shorts i think what i would want to do is like lasso a few of my favorite shorts and talk about them because he was in a master of the two-wheeler and nobody

watches those movies anymore because they're shorts you know they don't fit into the feature program yes but like one week is like as funny as yeah i mean one week is a masterpiece an absolute masterpiece i just finished writing a chapter on it, actually. The house? You know the house gag? I know the house gag, yes. Falls down, he's at the window. He's at the window.

The big version of that gag, of course, is in Steamboat Bill Jr. Right. He repeats. Oh, yeah. It's a good gag. It's an old vaudeville gag.

He does it with Arbuckle, too. Yeah. Do you know why they call him Buster? No. Because he used to just fall down a lot as a baby. So he was just busting around? And they were like, oh, he's good at pratfalls, so they just

throw him around. Hey, man. You know, it was a different time. And then when he was like five or something, he must have been like, hey, mom, dad, two quick questions. One, why is my name Buster? Two, why do all of my bones hurt? I used to babysit a kid called Buster

who was named after Buster Keaton, which is an intense name to give a kid these days. If my daughter had been a boy, she was going to maybe be Buster. Really? We couldn't decide if it was too extreme or sounded too cute or something, but he's a true hero of mine and it's a wonderful name. I just thought about naming a kid Buster. The thing is, I babysat this kid.

This kid was like seven years old and he was a cute little kid, so Buster was a fantastic name. Yeah. I don't know how it's going to work when he's like 30. But he was an appropriate Buster. You want to attach a really dignified middle name. Yeah, sure.

That they can maybe sub in if they need to. Right. Like Buster Henry. Buster Rimes. Buster Rimes. Yes. And on that note, wrap us. Come on. Take this train. So this episode is dedicated to my future son, Buster Rhymes. Buster Rhymes, yes. And on that note, wrap us, come on, take this train out of the station.

So this episode is dedicated to my future son, Buster Rhymes Newman. Dana, thank you for being here. Oh, thanks so much. It was a delight. And thanks to all of you for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit. And TeePublic for some real nerdy shit and TeePublic

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theme song next week tune in for Heat next week tune in for Heat next week the Heat is on with John Gabrus that's right

that's right the Heat is on with one of the action boys himself intern Gino Lombardo and and as always my favorite

my favorite scene in this movie is when Hawkeye retrieves the soul stone. There. I don't know.