Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Little Mermaid with Esther Zuckerman

Episode Date: February 14, 2021

Esther Zuckerman (Thrillist) returns to discuss 1989’s massive hit, The Little Mermaid! Topics include: the musical contributions of Alan Menken and Howard Ashman, the upcoming live action remake, Ursula in human form as Vanessa, and more! Check out Esther's book: A Field Guide to Internet Boyfriends: Meme-Worthy Celebrity Crushes from A to Z Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com

Blank Check with Griffin and David Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check Up where they walk, up where they run, up where they stay all day in the sun. Wandering free. Wish I could be part of their cast. Thank you so much for that. You're welcome.

That was wonderful. You're welcome. I thought it was great. I almost pulled it off. I lost it in the middle there and I pulled it back down. Here's my question. Here's my question. What? We've got Pot of their cast.

We've got four more musicals on the horizon. Are you asking me if i'm gonna do it all four times i think you should i think i probably will right why not i think i probably will because great mouse detective i know it has songs but like um you you know it's not the same thing but like this you know we're now we're in Broadway musical level type, you know, like there's we got to do a musical opening. Well, so you have to remember at the time we're recording this, the episode won't come out for another month or so.

But the time we're recording this, I'm hot off of the success of the new Watto holiday parody song. All I Watto for Life Day is you. So I caught the bug again. Not to give myself away. Well, first of all, I was like wondering what you were going to do. And I feel stupid for not guessing that. Part of their cast.

And second, you also sang the intro the last time I was on the main feed. Oh, that was the last time you were on the main feed was I'll do anything. Yeah. Look, I mean, horrible, horrible song. I, there are few things I love more than putting 10% of effort into rewriting words, lyrics. Like I, I love a good, not even half-assed, but like quarter-assed parody songwriting. Of course, this was for the George Lucas talk show, Life Day holiday special. I took, while the show was going, I took All I Want for Christmas is You,

and I did search and just replaced every instance of Christmas with Life Day and every instance of Want with Watto. And that was pretty much the end of my rewriting. And it reminded me that it's the most fulfilling work in the world to do that lazy a job rewriting song lyrics. Did you put out the Watto live album? No, I never did. No, because I never recorded it. I thought about doing it with the show, but in my mind, part of me wanted to re-record it. I don't know. I mean, the world ended. I want to hear those songs again. Yeah, part of me wants to redo them.

Were you at that show, Esther? I was not. I was seeing Six, the musical, that night. I'm very sorry. No, it's fine. It was the last comedy show, but none of us could have known that at the time. I thought you were going to do more Watto shows. I thought so, too. We had a second one on the books. Yeah. It was huge.

You're right. It brings me great joy to replace three words in a popular song. I probably will continue doing it for the rest of this mini series. Uh, please do. Thank you very much. I'm so excited to talk about this movie and introduce our guests, but I guess you should enter the show.

Oh, I should introduce the show. Yeah, I guess so. Oh, this is blank check with Griffin. David, of course I'm Griffin. Oh, I should introduce the show? Yeah, I guess so. Oh, this is Blank Check with Griffin David, of course. I'm Griffin. Oh, I'm David.

A little quicker on the response time there. It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success. What are you doing? You're hitting a fork on a tank? Oh, he's being Sebastian. Oh, folks, he's being Sebastian. This is going to be a fucking goofball David episode. I love this movie.

It's a podcast about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their career and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. I don't know.

Sometimes they bounce. Bounce. I don't know. Sometimes they bounce. I'm trying to decide here. Is this clear? Would we say? This one cleared.

Little Mermaid cleared? This one also had a bit of a tail, you might say. A little bit of a tail. Here's the wild detail. I just saw your art, Ben. Jesus Christ. Ben has replaced his virtual background. He's leaning back in his chair like eight feet away from the camera,

and he's got a background of like, what would I say? It's like a SoundCloud rapper version of Ariel. Is that fair to say? Yeah, 100%. She's smoking a massive spliff. She's smoking the weed

and is looking very cool. I was trying to find a virtual background. I stumbled upon the fan art world of Ariel and it's fascinating. There's goth versions. There's goth versions.

Yeah. There's tattooed versions. I mean, all of it wildly inappropriate. But yeah, I just went for like a, like a blunted Ariel. What can I say? I like the way you say her name.

She's blunted all right. Yeah. I was, I was just looking at like, stats and stuff before the episode started. This movie made like $85 million in theaters first run, and then by like two years later, it had made a billion dollars. Like all combined, all revenue streams.

Re-releases, video releases, all that. Soundtrack sales, just like everything. Like this movie, things directly tied to this movie, had within two years made a billion dollars for the studio. There's like the line they casually throw out in Waking Sleeping Beauty that I think about all the time, but I think it's pretty indisputable, especially up until that point in time, right? Like up until the late 2000s when billion dollar movies first run worldwide start becoming more of a thing this run of the disney renaissance movies the top tier films were the most profitable movies ever made like they were up until that time all revenue streams combined the most profitable films ever made to be clear when it comes to the little mermaid that was mostly sebastian's

calypso album right like that was that was the thing which i owned yeah uh on cd it was the like one of the first cds i ever owned and i listened to it every day and it has a great cover if you can get it really if you really want by jimmy cliff but you know that david sonnenberg fucked him on the record deal right he like never made money off of it yeah i know that's why he did that's why he did his follow-up album sebastian party grass which is a weird pun because mardi gras is already like it's it's a party like i don't know if you really need to plus no mardi gras no it's kind of a shame that sebastian didn't do more movies right the guy the guy's so good at being in movies i think he was too busy being second in command of a of an aquatic empire which seems to be his job he's got the janelle monaime problem

it's like oh it turns out you're accidentally a great movie star how much focus are you willing to put towards that um not to get too into it but we were but i was watching this re-watching this for the millionth time with my boyfriend yesterday and he was like okay stop sorry yes hummel brag um okay stop we have to discuss what the wait what like who what what role does sebastian play in this right what is what is his formal like if you think of like is he a chief of staff is he the vice president like what is his job does that little seahorse have more power or less power than sebastian we gotta talk about the fucking seahorse it's a huge thing it needs to be discussed i forget his name but he's got a name yeah absolutely absolutely harold his name is harold because he's a herald it's a it's

a joke i got it holy shit it is funny like it's i don't know david i feel like you've been watching like shitty uh a fucking like middling uh popcorn movies of the last 10 years a lot in uh in lockdown right like so often we'll have these conversations where you're like i re-watched this movie from six years ago it feels quaint now like this thing that you and i are are so quick to do which is like oh this movie that i think is garbage i now find somewhat nostalgic there's something there right and also because shit has gotten so bad that everything feels quaint now you know it's just like every passing year last year's trash now looks like some weird artisanal object the death spiral

is so intense yes that right i mean because i put the skeleton key which is like i guess like 15 years old but that's a movie I threw on. Oh, I kind of like that movie, the Kate Hudson, Jenna Rowlands movie. Right. I threw that on and I was like, I mean, this is basically a masterpiece. This is terrific. This is well, this is well paced. Like this has a lot of atmosphere, you know, like, and I'm like, no, it's probably just a 7 out of 10, but it's good. It's also reverse get out. Whatever. We can't talk about the skeleton key right now.

Someone posted on the subreddit recently that I've just genuinely turned into Eli Wallach's character from The Holiday. That I now just go like, can you believe that this movie does this? Today this movie would do that. Do you know what a meet cute is? Yeah, it's all I do now. I just, I'm mourning the death of the thing I'm watching die right in front of me in real time. And the funeral is being released day and date on HBO Max. Listen, this is a main series on the films of Musker and Clements.

It's called The Pottle Murcast. and today we're talking about that movie. Yeah, that's what it's called, Esther. We have limited options. What are you going to call it? Treasure podcast? Hey, it is a treasure, this podcast. This podcast is a national treasure. But then if we use that title, then what would we call our John Turtletop miniseries?

These are the tough choices we have to make. We would call our John Turtletop miniseries Pod Turtle Cast. I don't know. We'd go back to the... Yeah, just put it in their name.

Pod Night Shama Cast structure. Listen, we got a really exciting guest today for a very particular reason. I mean, she's one of our favorite people. But more importantly, she's breaking a pattern today. For the first time ever, she's talking about a good movie on this podcast. She had verbalized to both of us separately and together that she would like to talk about a good movie someday because she felt like she only gets to talk about absolute garbage on this show yeah i would say easily the best movie you've ever talked about on this show

is captain marvel which you did on the um yeah on the patreon which I did not like. And that's a flawed film at best. A movie that none of us like. But we were trying to think who to have on this episode and we threw out a couple of the names of our favorites, our regulars. And I said, David, let's ask Esther. We've never let her cover a good movie.

And then Esther responded to you and texted me independently saying, finally I get to cover a good movie on the show yes esther zuckerman ladies hello and germs hello ladies and ladies and crabs and and what did you say to me we didn't know this but when i when i said i was very aware of the fact that you were overdue to be given a good movie. What did you say sits next to your desk, Esther? A sketch of Flounder by Flounder's original artist that my parents got for me when I was a very little girl.

So that is literally to my left. I can't, I don't know my left or my right and then um on to my right is a poster from uh the orpheum run which was like the second off-broadway run not the tiny tiny run of little shop of horrors um this movie is like very formative to me in many many ways um it's very important to me and i'm like very excited to talk about it. I'm very excited for you to say that. I feel like Esther, we used to work together. Esther, you work for Thrillist right now, obviously.

We should shout this out. You wrote a book. We should shout that out. Thank you. Right at the top, Field Guide to Internet Boyfriends. But we, when we work together, that's what it's called, right? Did I nail it?

Yeah. Yeah, you nailed it. I nailed it. Thank you. Thank you. My publisher will be very happy. But also, when we work together, we just would talk about Howard Ashman a lot, I feel like. Yeah.

And Mencken. Mencken Ashman. We would talk about that whole mythos a fair amount and this is this is the this is the big you know cinematic launch of Menken Asher right Asher I can get into this whole spiel now or later but like I have this sort of personal connection that is both real and also sort of like invented in my head I think a little bit little bit, that I can hold off on it. It's like a sort of longer story. I think let's get into it.

I think, I mean, I sort of set this up in The Great Masked Detective, and I'm sure I'm going to keep on saying this ad infinium for the rest of this miniseries, but this is kind of a weird one for us because Musker and Clements are the least oh tourist directors we've covered on this show not just because there's two of them but also because they're such company men the disney machinery was so huge this and aladdin are so much ashman menken movies you know not that they're anonymous they're i i'm sure certain through lines we will be able to identify, but all of their films feel part of larger waves more than their own narratives.

It's true. It's true. I mean, Treasure Planet being the least, I would imagine. Yeah. When we get to that one. I was saying this to David. It was really interesting re-watching this last night because I feel like I've always watched it with an eye towards the storytelling and the songwriting. And like sort of thinking of knowing it was the Musker Clements movie, like miniseries, and sort of thinking about it like as a directorial effort was like very interesting to me to like think about, I guess, like while watching it. It was like, it was a different way to watch it.

Yeah. Incredibly directed. Yeah, beautifully directed. And the choices that, like, sort of are born out of the, like, Ashman lyrics that then Clements and Musker sort of capitalize on within the animation are, like, really incredible when you, like, think about them. But I just, you know, it's like a movie so embedded in my consciousness that I like had never really like thought about that before.

It's one of those movies we come across every once in a while on the show where it's hard to actually just reset your brain and try to watch it like objectively you know rather like divorced from your history with it its cultural reputation everything it's it's wrought both good and bad um yeah it's it's a very hard movie to just sort of like isolate and just watch as a film yeah it is yeah and i've literally right i've literally been watching it since i was born right that's the problem we're the exact age like we're the generation that grew up with this movie like this was the one it was the tip of the spear in terms of the the disney renaissance and this is the one I probably re-watched the most.

Yeah. I was trying to run it in my head. Of this era, I think it probably was... It was these three. I don't know. I watch them all, all three all the time. The Ashman Menkins. This Aladdin and Beauty and the Beast. I will say that when I was... I had...

This is sort of embarrassing embarrassing but we're all friends on blank check um we're all friends like I definitely in high school went through a phase where I reverted back into Disney like a lot um my friends and I like instead of going to the formal dance one year like went to Disneyland because we were in LA. And like during that period when I sort of was like, it was both, it was both like reverting back into Disney and getting really into like the idea of Ashman and Mencken and what they were doing. Like Little Mermaid was the one I watched so much and would just sort of like, you know, sing part of your world in the shower, be very much like, you know,

I'm like, I'm this rebellious, like it connects to to me too, as like a rebellious teenage girl, you know, this bullshit. But like, that was one I definitely just sort of came back to a lot. Yeah, I mean, Little Shop of Horrors is my single favorite musical of all time. And they're probably not a week has gone by in the last 10 years at least that i have not sung one of those songs to myself in my bathroom and especially in quarantine it's been through the roof like i've just taken this time to be like i'm not gonna learn how to make a fucking sourdough loaf i'm gonna try to try to perfect my suddenly Seymour.

My shower suddenly Seymour. Ben just changed his icon again to another tatted Ariel. This one I like. She's got flounder. She's got a shell. She's got gauges in her ears too.

She's got gauges and she's got tattoo sleeves but the tattoos are all little mermaid tattoos like they're all basically iconography from the movie yeah

she tattooed flounder on herself well of course they're besties she you can't see it but there's an aerial

heart Eric but it's an actual heart like it's intense it's very realistic oh my god like a gory heart but it's an actual heart like it's intense it's very realistic like a gory heart it's like a suicide girls burning angel Ariel right like that's what we're

looking at here suicide girls plenty more of that came from anyway sorry we will cover on this podcast one day i'm gonna we're gonna do oz at some point i don't know if you're aware of this but this podcast is co-hosted by uh griffin newman i think we're gonna cover frank oz at some point it also it's 12

movies they're mostly i feel like they're all interesting it'd be great but this is the thing i wanted to say esther's like this is a little embarrassing i'm like do you know who the co-host of this show is yeah also i like that's embarrassing i don't know i feel like it's a weird thing for a teenage girl when you sort of like dive back into that like you know you revert back a little i think this happens to like a lot of teenage girls like you you were so overwhelmed by the world that you were brought back into like childhood Disney stuff like it was also the era where like Hot Topic and places were putting like cutesy Disney things on t-shirts my driver's license sure which is from when I was 15 because I haven't gotten a new driver's license picture um I'm wearing like a Bambi shirt but it looks like a band t-shirt but it has bambi on it

there there's there's such a fascinating thing to me how like i feel the disney renaissance coincides with this gen x like pushback of like the disney like the fucking gaping maw of this beast and they sand off all the rough edges. Is this shit actually, like, offensive? And now Hot Topic is just Disney. Hot Topic is, like, the alternative Disney store, right? Like, it's just edgier Disney merchandise for older kids. That's all Hot Topic is now. And Rick and Morty.

Yeah. And Rick and Morty. And Harry Potter and all that crap. Yeah. Harley Quinn. But it went from being like oh nightmare before christmas has shit at hot topic because that's like the edgy disney movie to now it's just like hot topic just sells emperor's new groove shirts they just they're just a brand partner yes exactly like with very yeah but it's 75 disney animation there's a lot

of disney i'm saying there's a lot of liilo and Stitch stuff on here. But this is the thing. The Little Mermaid for us, and it's different movies for different people, depending on when they grew up. But like, right, you love it when you're a child. Your parents are like, yeah, it's Disney. We'll put you in front of the Disney. And then as you're a

teenager or whatever, it's one of the first things that you reevaluate and you're like, oh, there's artistry here. right like it's not just this is the thing i've loved since i was a kid but you think about it because it's so in your brain so that's part of the whole experience but it it also if it has that frozen thing where it's just like and this is a better movie than Frozen but where it's just like the fucking the emotional core the wants the needs of that character

as best summarized in that one song is just so fucking potent that like any like two year old can see it and understand it completely there's just that weird magic where you're like how is this so crystal clear to anyone of any age where you're like, I get it.

I feel that. That's just like the Ashman idea, like just to get into it. Like, yeah, that's why that's like what he did. Like, there's that clip of him at some sort of like Disney lecture. It's so good around a lot where he talks about like the idea of storytelling. It's pushed around a lot where he talks about like the idea of storytelling. It's like every show, like every show has the song where the girl sits down on the tree stoop, the tree stoop.

Is that a word? Yeah. Stump. Stump. That's it. It sounds like a tree stump and says, it sounds like an artisanal stoop. Yeah.

Right. Right. She's got a tree stoop. And, and says, and like sings about what she wants and it's yeah you know it's everything he i think the example he uses is um you know my fair lady um all i want is a room somewhere and and great song i mean part of your world also like to get it like the my other favorite trivia about part of the world is that like Jeffrey Katzenberg tried to cut it from the movie.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like so wild. Which is like, which is his second best idea next to Quibi. Right. Yeah. Well, look, yeah. Look, Jeff's a great collaborator, but it is crazy every time you read.

And I do think it's partly that people love to relitigate shit to use a word we were discussing you know years after the success but every time you read about any one of these movies katzenberg is just this asshole i know who wants to fuck everything up but also it should be said like sometimes you know those those legends circulate and then you get back to katzenberg or other people and they're like that's kind of blown out of proportion it was mentioned offhand once but the part of the their world thing he's like yeah no no I nearly cut that from the movie it was like a big fight

I adamantly felt it should not be in the film he just thought it was boring yeah kids weren't gonna sit down he thought kids were gonna fall asleep and I think like the other thing is a lot of the animators also I think sort of agreed with him because they were sort of so trained to be, you know, what are kids going to start fidgeting? It's slow on action.

Yes. Yes. It's a quiet concept. I mean, it's the greatest Disney song. It is arguably the greatest Disney song. Yeah, it's the best. It's the platonic ideal. Yeah.

Also, Jeffrey wanted to turn The Little Mermaid into a clibby. Yeah, he did. He wanted to turn it into a clibby. It's worth noting that this movie is 1989. It is the first fairy tale and the first princess movie that Disney Animation has done since 1959. Sleeping Beauty, Little Mermaid, there's nothing in between. Right, because Sleeping Beauty is the one that kind of scares them off of it, right? They're like, we've done this too many times. It's not clicking with boys.

We can't be defined by, right? Like where they run away from it. Which also rules, by the way. I think Sleeping Beauty rules. The most incredible movie. Just incredible. I think it's visually beautiful. I find it kind of cold emotionally. Yeah, I know. It's a little cold, but it's so incredible. There's just nothing like it.

From a design level, I couldn't agree more. But I think that was maybe part of the trepidation, too, of just like those movies had less potential for comedy, were a little more arch. You know, like Sleeping Beauty was seen as sort of this like artsy experimental version of the model that they had already maybe wrung out dry. It's I don't know. Like, I just feel now there's just the, the sort of like the Disney princess thing. And it's very easy to mush that continuum together, but it's like, no, those movies exist from like the thirties to the late fifties and then don't exist at all in the sixties, the seventies until the tail end of the eighties. Right. It's really the nineties.

Right. Then there's like four or five of them then they get scared off again about boys not liking the movies they they back off and then they've gone back to the princess well but it's like oh that scared off period was like eight years versus 30 years right it's true i mean things as we say the death spiral right things speed up but right frozen's the exact same thing where after not doing it for a while they're like what if we did like kind of a big broadway musical based on a fairy tale about a princess and they put it out and they're like i don't think this is gonna work and it like conquers the earth right you know like and they're like oh shit and don't and don't you remember like the frozen the first frozen trailer

was like just o, I think. Right, right. Because they were like, no one wants this princess shit. And you didn't know that there was singing in it. No. You didn't realize Frozen was, like, I don't think I even fully realized Frozen, how much Frozen was a musical until I went to the screening and I sat down and I was like, oh, this is a musical. I love this. Yeah.

I was so jazzed on that movie because I was just like, oh, this is a musical. I love this. Yeah. I was so jazzed on that movie because I was just like, oh, like, you know, they're back. I went with my brother, Jamesy, and we were like with the family for the holidays in the middle of Tennessee. And that was like my dad was going to drive me to see a movie because when I'm cooped up with my family somewhere outside of the city, they're like, we have to drop him off at the theater or else he's just going to be unbearable. Like it's one of those things where they're just like, he's going to get so prickly if he doesn't see a movie

at some point in the next three days. So James was like, what are you seeing? And I was like, Frozen's the new Disney movie. And he was like, sure, I'll go see that with you. And I think we're literally the only two people in the theater opening day at like 11 a.m., you know, at like a multiplex in in knoxville tennessee and when the song starts at the beginning of the movie turns

me is like oh this is like a real disney movie yeah right like 100 that's no one knew alien it also speaking of little mermaid like it literally directly copies little mermaid with the opening song being the sort of like worker song like you know there's nothing fucking better than a worker song it's so good yeah it's so fucking good

but for Frozen aside because right Frozen is doing but like yes the Little Mermaid I think Clements and Musker obviously Ashman and Mencken are so crucial to it but they are Clements and Musker are the ones who are advocating, right? They're like, we should, you know, we should, this was a 30s idea. Like Disney has always thought about doing this fairy tale and never cracked it. But why wouldn't we do, you know, we should do this.

They were going to do an omnibus Hans Christian Andersen anderson movie at one point because right like a package film right the first couple disney films were so expensive that then there was that scale back period and he started doing more kind of package movies like fun and francy free and make my music and they had this idea of like oh you could adapt a bunch of them and then that was abandoned and then the idea of like oh you could adapt a bunch of them and that was abandoned and then the idea of doing a whole little mermaid movie kind of persisted for a while but then independently you know fucking 60 years later uh he i forget if it's musker clements i just get it's clements clements finds the tale himself i guess and writes it up for, and presents it at the gong show that Katzenberg hosts

that we talked about in the last episode. It's the gong show era where they're so desperate to try to revive their animation department that they'll have these weekly gong shows

and it's like anyone can come in with any, you know, two minute pitch on what could make a good feature length animated film. So he comes in with the book and they gong him because of Splash.

They do. They say like, because of Splash. They do. They say like, boo, Splash just came out. We just did it. Why would we make another movie in the exact same model as the film we made that was just successful?

What I don't know is why he then turned around and was like, you know what? Actually, write up a treatment. Like, I don't know what changed his mind exactly. Maybe Clements just bugged him. Yeah. But he did at some point what actually write up a treatment like for i don't know what changed his mind exactly maybe

clements just bugged him yeah but uh he did at some point say like okay sure you know like maybe that's a good idea right and then separately with that is uh uh i think it's i always get them confused as well but it's the two guys Shoemaker and the other guy, whose name I forgot as well last episode, who are the two guys they bring in from theater to sort of oversee the animation department. It's Tom Shoemaker. Peter Schneider?

Yes. I think that's who it is. Doesn't Tom Shoemaker still run Disney Theatrical? Yes. He now runs, yes, the Disney stage uh disney broadway yes he's the guy it's peter schneider peter schneider sorry yes shoemaker and schneider is the other guy shoemaker right he's the guy who's always at the tony's he's got funny glasses yes he's you know yeah but but schneider is the guy who's really running lead at this point he's

the one who aggressively pursues menken and ashman but not for little mermaid no no just generally like these are the types of guys we should have working on our movies also it's not even it's not even really menken that's the thing like it is ashman who like then is like i will bring menken along largely i'm pretty sure yes ashman because ashman wrote little shop of horrors and ashman produces this movie obviously he also directed it so like ashman was the sort of creative he's the right yeah he wrote the book yeah yeah and the lyrics yeah yeah this is i'll tell my sort of personal like please anecdote now that's like because my so my like connection to Howard Ashman is my so

my parents met working in New York theater um they met at the Impossible Ragtime Theater and then they went to work at the WPA which was the theater that Howard Ashman's started basically with um two other people Stuart Wright Stuart White and Kyle Rennick. And my mom was the literary executive. So she would like read scripts and the casting director. And then my dad would direct plays there. And so they knew Howard. My mom cast Little Shop of Horrors, um, the original production. Like, so.

This is the coolest shit in the world. So that was like, so it's always been part of, one of the things I, one of the last things I did in the before times was Kyle Rennick, who founded, um, who founded the WPA with Howard just died prior to COVID and my mom ordered organized this memorial service for him um at a theater in New York and um Sarah Ashman Sarah Gillespie Howard's sister was one of the people that spoke it was also I mean it was an amazing

thing Alan Menken like saying um to sort of close out the evening it was like this incredible sort of moral and it was just this weird little awesome beat like it was this weird awesome theater like I and I you know it's one of those things it's like I'm pretty obsessed with this like idea of the WPA um because it wasn't you know, it was Little Shop, but it was also, you know, so many other like Steel Magnolias, like my mom, like my mom also cast the original production of Steel Magnolias. Yeah, but that's not as cool. Come on. No, it's not as cool, but it's like, it's not as cool, but I like it's this, I don't know, it's this part of like my family history that I'm very proud of. So when I was watching this stuff for the first time, like, yeah, like I knew who I, you know, I think I knew who was behind the songs.

And but basically the whole thing with Howard was that he he did his I believe his first show on Broadway Smile with Marvin Hamlisch. Yeah. And it completely flopped. And then that's when Disney came a calling. Yeah. And they asked for him and then he brought make it along. Right. And Smile was sort of supposed to be like this step up from the off-Broadway weirdness into like the big leagues of Broadway. And when that flopped, I think there was that sort of desperation that a lot of times has inspired historic work that we cover on this podcast where someone's like, I don't know, that thing didn't work, so I guess I should try this. And then they try something and change the world. Yeah. Yes, the slight strain, the other thing, right, is that he did lyrics on a song in Oliver and Company, which I guess is just them being like, come, like, you know, come play around.

Yeah. And, like, that's the little spark where they mention, you know, we're working on this, like, Little Mermaid. Like, and like, that's what he is immediately interested in. This was also, I actually watched, I hadn't seen the Don Hahn documentary about Howard. I watched it. It's good. It's really good.

It's really good. It's really good. I think it's terrific. But one of the things I didn't realize was he was working in, like he tried live action too before then. Like apparently he wrote like he like sat down with tina turner and wrote like an idea for like a tina turner musical that like disney might have done um but like he was really drawn to this idea to the idea of animation

because it is a sort of like unlimited capacity like movie musicals weren't working as well and so it was you know live action movie musicals so like with animation you can do it you can go back to the well yeah i mean it's it's such a perfect con confluence of different elements and different people all aligning at this one moment and it is fascinating because like you know tangled which i love frozen milana like that new modern wave of the the cgi um you know jennifer Lee era princess musical revival. Those movies are clearly evolutions of this era. But these movies are so different from the original Disney princess movies, right? I mean, like Little Mermaid is so different from Sleeping Beauty and Snow White and Cinderella and that whole era. There's such a seismic shift there. There's no comparison. And the key to that shift is Broadway, is the influx of

the people like Schneider and Shoemaker bringing in people like Ashman and Mencken and letting Broadway sensibility. And let's say it also like letting very gay sensibilities enter into these films that's part of it for sure that's true but it's it's the broadway sensibility i think you're right just in terms of the um confidence to let the songs drive this story entirely yes versus those earlier disney movies we're talking about where the songs are interludes you know they're nice things to keep the energy up and keep kids invested and you know but like they don't you know like i mean like peter pan has like a couple good songs like pinocchio has a couple good songs you know but like they're not as uh crucial to the plot like sometimes it's just like let's go over there

they feel closer to how classic hollywood films will have multiple songs without being a musical. Like when you wish upon a star feels like Dean Martin singing my rifle, my pony and me in, uh, you know, Rio Bravo. It's like, Oh, here's like a brief interlude where a character sings a really good song. That's going to get nominated for an Oscar. Whereas these are like, it's, it's the fundamentals of musical storytelling where it's like a character sings when the emotion is so great mere words wouldn't do you know you need the songs to advance the story yes um yeah and yet this movie also does things where you're like you know it's crazy right like ariel has one song eric obviously doesn't sing at all there's multiple songs that are sung by anonymous cast members you know like

yeah i want to pull up your account here you did this the other night when you were watching the movie the stats are pretty incredible when you just sort of look at them as hard numbers right okay the thread starts with scuttle is a good wing man uh which of course is a great joke because uh he has wings he's a bird but also right i was just on this on this rewatch i was just very i was like i'm more charmed by scuttle than i remember being like like maybe when i was a kid i i thought he was annoying or something but yeah like now i like, oh, Scuttle's like a good dude. He's like a bro. Also, Scuttle's like, well, like Bob, my boyfriend was like, Scuttle's just high all the time.

Like, Scuttle is on the good drugs. He's just, he's clearly having a good time. Yeah. Scuttle's, he's also, Scuttle's for the grownups without being Shrek for the grown-ups like it's not like any of his jokes are mature but he's got an energy that is not particularly funny to kids right uh that's that's i think that's accurate right i think that's the thing when you're a

kid you're like he's too loud i don't know but okay all right but these were the stats i have it here the stats you threw out breakdown of who gets songs in The Little Mermaid, one of the greatest musicals in Disney history. Sebastian, two songs. Ariel, one song. Ursula, one song. A bunch of sailors, one song. Ariel's sisters, one song.

Homicidal chef, one song. End of list. I mean, points were made. I mean, look, Sebastian getting two songs is... Justified. A good idea. Justified. He's great.

And he's a musician. Like, I get it. But it is... I don't know. Were there cut songs? Like, it's not like Aladdin where there was a bunch on the cutting room floor, right? No, I don't think so. And I think when they did the musical, Tim Rice or something, somebody came in and made more.

And I'm sure Eric is going to have six songs in the fucking Marshall movie. I am the Eric. I'm drunk. Oh, sorry. It wasn't't Tim Rice it was Glenn Slater It's just weird that there are multiple songs about Ariel where Ariel does not sing I guess that's what it is it's that there's a song Introducing her but then

She's not there and then kiss the girl Of course is Ariel's song In a way And is my favorite song ever and is Ariel song in a way. Yeah. And is my favorite song ever. And is the song basically written by David Sims and a song I sing to my friends all the time in the form of social interaction. Right.

But like, but of course she's silent, you know, which. Right. I mean, part of this is, as you said,

right. She, she can't speak for the whole second half of the movie, As you said, right, she can't speak for the whole second half of the movie. But it is fascinating how much this movie isn't working on a formula because the formula hasn't been established yet. And this is now I'm remembering what I was trying to set up fucking 30 minutes ago talking about how much of an Eli Wallach I've become. But there's elements like that where it's just like, right, the fact that there's no like flounder song that there's no triton song that there's no eric song like none of that i'm saying is to the detriment of the movie but you cannot imagine that flying in a boardroom today especially when the chef has a song but also just the fact this is what made me think of this like the little

herald guy the fact that you don't even really know his name or that like ariel's sisters are just kind of like window dressing the idea that ariel's sisters wouldn't be a clear advertisement for a expansion of the doll line that they're just kind of there but i'm like i was so surprised by the fact that they don't each have like a gimmick and each have like 10 lines of dialogue. Well, they each have a different hat. That's it. But that's it. That's the point.

Like they're mostly a visual chorus, right? And you're like today they would be like, look, we have to make sure that each one has their own sort of like Captain Planet style power so that girls can pick which Ariel sister is the one that represents them the best uh right and like it's apparently the sequels get into this but we can't you know what i can't take those too seriously because they are half just money-making opportunities for the disney company

but like you always wonder it's like why is triton so worked up about ariel yeah specifically when he's got literally older like his actual throne will right surely passed one of these older kids right ariel's literally the youngest yeah i think you'd like give her a break she's like i want to have a you know underwater museum of human shit he's like yeah sure you're the sixth daughter. Fine. That can be your thing if you want that to be your thing. Because Little Mermaid 2 is Ariel and Eric's daughter

and Little Mermaid 3 is a prequel about the sisters and Ariel, right? Maybe that's what it is. Someone told me on Twitter that apparently one of them kind of clarifies that Ariel's mom is sort of like a carbon copy of ariel so that that's why triton is super invested which that's fine whatever

it doesn't count but there there was that weird thing with the direct-to-video sequels where it feels like the second one they'd be like fuck it i'm i'm tempting fate i'm gonna make the movie that takes place after heavily happily ever after and the movie would almost always be they have a kid and the kids exactly like how they were at the beginning of the first movie and then the third movie they go like fuck well we did that we can't just do it a third time prequel and then the third one goes to before the first movie. And I'm dreading this fucking Rob Marshall movie, but whatever. I would be so excited if anyone other than Rob Marshall were making it. Like to a certain degree, the prospect of adapting this one into live action is more exciting than the others.

But I don't know. It's the others but i don't know it's just like i don't think see my problem with that is that like it didn't work on stage like when they tried to bring it to profit like i'm not sure the little mermaid works if you like extend it and like they will inevitably like extend it like you have you sort of despite they're not gonna make just with this one there especially because of all these sort of weird holes and like it goes they're not gonna just make like an 80 minute movie they're gonna try to do yeah yeah no they'll do what they always do they tack on 45 minutes yeah and it just like this one i feel like more than you know beauty and the beast worked on stage like obviously that that movie is garbage, but the remake is garbage.

But it worked on stage. You're the one who wrote that piece, Esther, right? When Whichever One came out, how weird it is that Disney doesn't take more inspiration from their stage shows when they're remaking these movies. Am I misremembering that that you wrote a piece about that i don't think i wrote something specifically that i think i wrote like i mean i definitely wrote a lot about that like in terms of when i was reviewing lion king how yeah it doesn't make sense that they are not taking from like in that case, especially since the Lion King was so innovative and felt so different, like,

and then to do a carbon copy. But I don't, somebody else might've written like a more specific. I feel like when they make these decisions, so in Beauty and the Beast, right. They did as well, obviously where they don't use the musical songs,

they instead write great songs about, you know, for example, how he's the beast. Right. Which was a plot hole in the original film. It's very hard to follow. songs they instead write great songs about you know for example how he's the beast right which which was a plot hole in the original film it's very hard to follow he never actually said it also how a lot jasmine will never be speechless of course she will right never be speechless

okay how she won't how angry do you think they are that they burn that concept on aladdin and not little mermaid as they're trying to come up with the fucking shitty filler songs for little mermaid and they're like okay what's the like the thing we have to make woke now oh she's speechless um fuck we can't fuck i just it is and we will you know what most likely one day do guy richie that's a live action one come on the gentleman the gentlepods oh god the gentleman which is the eighth highest grossing film of 2020 right right exactly it's right behind sonic the hedgehog but um i i did want to make one point about the Little Mermaid live-action movie. Please, please, please.

Your number one guy is starring in it. Wait, wait, wait, wait. My number one. You mean, wait, who do you mean? Here's who I'm going to try and go through who's in the Little Mermaid live-action movie. David, what performer is saving theatrical movie going with his bare hands? Oh, Trimbs. Oh, yeah,. Oh yeah,

that's right. He's flounder, right? He's a, he's flounder. I mean, that's a slam dunk piece of casting to have tremble. He's your number one guy.

I love trims. And I just also look, cause flounder just has big responsible energy. You know, like flounders, the guy who's like, Ariel, I gotta get out of here

like and that is kind of trembley's energy good boys was a dry run for flounder here's my frustration i think they should have done it like the fish in the tank and monty python and the meaning of life i think it should be trembley with yellow face paint and there's a prosthetic fish around his head and he's wearing a green jumpsuit and they just they erase his body. It's just his head floating around. I'm going to try and from memory I know, I forget the name of

the Little Mermaid, but is she an unknown actress or is she... They're twins? They're twin pop stars? They're not twins actually. They're not, but they're sisters? Chloe and Halle are not twins. They're sisters. Okay.

And it's Halle. Halle is Little Mermaid. It must suck to be the other one. Right. You don't get to be anything. I can't stop feeling bad for Chloe. But yeah. So I know Javier Bardem is playing King Triton.

Right, which I think is a bad casting choice. I do think is really weird. Yeah. I Right, which I think is a bad casting choice. I do think it's really weird. Yeah, I mean, I'm sort of intrigued to see it. I'm intrigued to see many of Javier Bardem's performance, actually. But I don't know. But I think that's the one area with these movies where usually on paper, the casting choices are really good and are better than the fan casting shit that people come up with. choices are really good and are better than the fan casting shit that people

come up with. And this is the first one where I'm just like, every fan cast idea I heard for Trite was better than Bardem. Who I think just has the wrong energy. Isn't he just gonna be like his Pirates of the Caribbean character? Yes! Yes! He's just gonna have the fucking Drake

Sprite head. Jack Sparrow. I've never seen Death and Tell No Tales. No one's seen Death and Tell No Tales. Literally no one's seen it. I seen no one's you didn't tell no literally no one saw it doesn't no you didn't that's a psyop you think you saw it no one saw it it's never been screened oh boy um that is uh anyway okay okay all right i know melissa mccarthy is playing ursula which has certainly yeah another go. I think terrible idea. You think it's a bad idea? I think she's a bad choice.

Why do you think she's bad? I'm not challenging you. I'm sort of neutral on the whole thing. I think she has... I love Melissa McCarthy. I love her so much. I'm rooting for her. I wish she would make better choices with her career. But I feel like she has a goofy energy and not the sort of malevolent right not the malevolent like

bitch queen of the sea energy that i want for ursula Yeah, I also think part of Melissa McCarthy's appeal is a sort of very calibrated sloppiness, right? Yeah. Like spy, right. Right, no, but I'm not saying I don't mean this in any way backhanded, but I think part of her comedic sensibility is her

riffing sort of thing, and how good she is at physical comedy and all this shit is making things feel kind of organic whereas ursula is very like theatrical performative performative and i also think melissa mccarthy's fastball is anger but it's often misplaced anger it's not menace which ursula has to be genuinely menacing well the only thing i'm gonna say in defense there's two things one as you guys are saying i kind of just want her to do anything that's not ben falcone straight to gas stations i agree so right that are called like the lady and you're like what's

it about it's like well what if a lady was in a town i'm like is there anything else like they bought it before we even said anything more. So that's what it's about. I'm just realizing now, is Falcone going to play like fucking Flop Sam? Here's the thing. He can play Flotsam and Jetsam. He's a perfectly enjoyable screen presence. As long as he's not creatively involved.

I agree with you, David. But I think the second you allow him on to set, it's sort of vampire rules. You can't let him onto the soundstage. Because I've heard stories about some of the movies that he ostensibly didn't direct that got kind of foul-polled. Oh, that he like, okay. All right. Yeah. Well, so, right.

So that's it. But two, the thing about melissa mccarthy and esther you and i had a whole debate about this recently she and not not that you disagreed with me but we were just talking about how weird her career is like she's just so talented and like she surprised me in the past yeah there's like multiple melissa mccarthy projects that i walked into pretty like okay and like so maybe i'd maybe she can shock me i don't know but maybe not i don't know maybe i mean i also think the movie will stink because i think rob marshall's a bad director he's a bad

director with melissa mccarthy and obviously we can move on to this but like a while a while ago when i was working at the av club they did one of those like av club q and a's and one of the questions was like who is an actor that you will like see in whatever. And at that point in time, I said Melissa McCarthy, because I'd seen all of them. Like I'd seen Tammy, I'd seen the boss.

Like I kept going in with these high hopes. And now I finally fallen off where it's like, I'm not going to fucking watch super intelligence. I watched it like a sadist because i'm like rooting for her so hard how is it it's bad it fucking sucks like it's so shitty but it but it also is like she's so innately talented i don't think there is a single performer alive let alone a movie star of that stature where the gulf is that wide between the best their best work and their worst work with nothing in between like it's it's so cut and dry and it's unfortunately it's now

become like her only good comedies are directed by paul feig and otherwise pretty much you can only expect her to be good sometimes when she's working outside of her home genre right exactly right but but then there's shit like the kitchen where you're like that should have been a layup the kitchen is right i don't blame that on her it's so insane right that movie is insane she's fine in it i guess i that movie just felt like i don't't know. That movie was crazy. It felt like a, right, like I was going to walk out and people were going to be like, you didn't see a movie in there. Like, I just felt like something that didn't happen.

I just wanted to say, Awkwafina is playing Scuttle. It's Slam Dunk. Yes. I think that's great. Because I had to check, I'd forgotten, and when I looked that up, I was like, oh, that's nice. That's a good galaxy brain shit.'s like oh you're not gonna get someone to do a buddy

hack impression what's like a parallel energy that's the thing who is 2020's buddy hack it maybe Aquafina yeah I think it's smart I wrote down like stupid notes when I was watching the movie yesterday and one of them was like because

again Bob was like all the other pigeons are I mean not not pigeons all other uh seagulls like look normal and scuttle looks fucked up and I was like scuttles like you know one of those New York pigeons that you like see and it has like one leg and it's like all sort of like looks weird and like it's sort of like scuttles like a Neworker that's been transported to the sea off the coast of france i guess um i mean we can't we can't try and plumb the geography of this fucking movie i don't what time is it set in no none of them where are we who knows i don't know i determined this time that it's off the coast of fr because there's a map I think. No. I don't know. I can't get into this. Yes, there's a French chef but Eric is American.

We just can't think about it. It's so culturally unspecific. I will say I have a simpler answer for that one question for Bob which is Scuttle's the only one who's Jewish. That's Scuttle's deal. He is Jewish, right? Yeah right yeah right he's canonically jewish i i will i will take no questions at this time and then and then david digs is sebastian

that seems like a good call yeah and then who is um prince eric i guess it doesn't it's like an unknown guy they offered to har Stiles and he turned it down. Yeah, they tried to get Harry Stiles and he was like, no. Okay, here's the thing I want to say. Let's get into the 1989 movie obviously, but here's the thing I want to say about Prince Eric. Because I feel like he gets a bad rap because he's boring and

doesn't really contribute much. Also, he falls madly in love with someone who he cannot have a conversation with. Like, it's kind of a bad sign. Right, right. But he's a chiller. All he wants to do is sit on the boat, play his flute, play with his dog.

He loves his fucking flute. He loves his flute. You know, he's got some nice casual wear. He doesn't stand on ceremony when they're having this fancy dinner and his his aid to camp is like oh right the best shot of eric is i think it's the night after kiss the girl or maybe it's the night before kiss the girl where it just cuts to like him in the dark like with a flowing cape like playing his flute just into the night he loves to play the flute yeah and ariel she's like she's like yeah he's good dog dad he's like

ariel's like i can't talk he's not like bothering her about that where he's like why can't you talk what's that he's just like oh yeah whatever man like that's cool you want to roll with me and i'll play my flute and you know he just he's a he's a friendly fella and you know who the voice actor is right uh i don't but but you know, I do know, I'm going to look it up now, but I do know someone who was like the runner up for that role. Do you want to know who? Who?

Jim Carrey. I did see that. What? Yeah. Isn't that wild? Like young Jim Carrey. And Michael Richards almost played Scuttle. That's wild too.

Oh God. He would have been good. He would have been good. I know, but thank god for history's sake oh yes I mean it all worked out who voiced Eric IRL I'm forgetting the guy's name but he

was also 90's Daniel Barnes he was 90's cartoon Spider-Man oh sure he was like the main Spider-Man of the 90's right no I watched that show absolutely and and he's greg brady in the brady bunch movies oh he looks like prince eric in real life yeah that's cool i respect it yeah he's just the ultimate like perfect kind of

a cartoon leading man voice actor like he's just got the cleanest like hello i'm a man i'm a person yeah because like the beast is such an insane problematic romantic lead right like just a bananas whereas eric it's like yeah he's boring but you know he's enough i also feel like to like to get into the like the things that people you know take complaint about with this movie in 2020 you could literally all attribute it to all of the decisions that she makes it's like people like oh she gives up her legs for a man what about it's like she's 16 and horny as hell she's so stupid i feel like when you're watching it like in like as an adult you're like yeah i would do the same thing because i was dumb and i want to you know and i was she wants to go somewhere yeah her only friend is a fucking

dumb cuck fish she hangs out her her teacher is a seagull who's, let's be honest, like, you know, not half there. If you're asking questions about this movie, you are a freak. Like the freaks I'm seeing when I search fan art. Yeah. David messaged me earlier this morning that he liked saying the flounder is a cuck, which is like one of his main takes. I should probably chill out calling everything a cuck. And, you know, Ursula is a sorceress. She knows what she's doing.

She knows how to talk you into a life array. She's a sea witch, yes. She does sea witchery. A wild thing to think about. Go ahead. That Sofia Coppola came this close to doing a live action little mermaid for universal love to see it and the reason she quit is because universal wouldn't let her cast maya thurman hawk

is that true that's true why she would have she would have been great yeah she discovered her and they were like we're not gonna hire an unknown wait where'd she and unknown whose last names are thurman yeah exactly, what the fuck are you talking about? She would have added another lobster and they would have been Bella and Sebastian. Ben's leaning in for that one. Incredible. Ben's happy.

Sorry, had to. He doesn't miss, folks. Yeah, I mean, hawk is great um i actually think she's very talented it is one of those things where you're like you know what these famous people have kids and guess what they're really attractive and they know what they're doing in front of the camera like but but also like two hotties had this kid who's like sophia coppola i guess game recognized game knows good nepotism when she sees it, called it. But do you think that's what it was though?

They were like, Sofia, come on. She called it, this was like four years ago. And they were like, we really want Chloe Grace Moretz. And she quit and the movie never got made. They wanted Chloe Grace, that would stink. Yeah. Oh man. And I don't even hate Chloe Grace Moretz anymore. Star of Tom and Jerry, Chloe Grace that would stink oh man and I don't even hate Chloe Grace Moretz anymore

star of Tom and Jerry Chloe Grace Moretz yeah I'm sorry is she in Tom and Jerry David is she in Tom have you not seen the Tom and Jerry trailer I have not I just decided that there were other things I wanted to do

you have to watch the tom and jerry trailer david do you know you do you do do you know that tom and jerry are hand drawn that tom and jerry takes place in some weird roger rabbit style universe it's unclear if it's like oh they're cartoons or if in this universe all animals look like tattoos but they're a bunch of pigeons singing juice by lizzo and there's a cartoon elephant colin jost rides the rides the rides the cartoon elephant colin jost is in this thing the central conflict of the tom and jerry movie directed by tim story sure is that chloe garris maritz is a new hire at new york's fanciest hotel working for michael pena and uh a fucking uh uh catastrophe rob delaney rob delaney

and they're like we have a mouse problem should we hire exterminators and she's like why hire exterminators when we can hire a cat and she hires jerry and they're trying to clean the place out before colin just has what is referred to in the trailer as the wedding of the century wow this all sounds anybody could just make those decisions that's so dumb chaos and sit uh right but they actually right that one was actually just them throwing dice every single time they had to make a decision they were like all right if we roll we're gonna roll a d20 here right no just a wall and they threw darts at it literally i, it must be. The wedding of the century. I'm just dying to hear who Colin Jost's character is supposed to be in this universe. Do you know who Colin Jost is married to in real life?

Princess Diana, clearly. Yeah. Colin Jost is Princess Diana. Like, that's what it can only be that. And he's canon Colin Jost. They're like, the star of Weekend Update is Mary Princess Diana, who's alive in this universe. I'm just so excited because every time I watch Weekend Update, I go, why isn't this guy in movies? I really want to see him in movies.

That feels like where he belongs. The Little Mermaid, which is a 1989 film written and directed by Ron Clements and John Musker and I do want to point that out because that's unusual for Disney at the time it's just credited to them as writers as well as as directors although, I mean, by all accounts

Ashman deserves a lot of credit I mean, he really helped develop and shape the story Ashman is the producer which obviously, yes, is a huge acknowledgement of his creative involvement. But Ashman came in,

they had a script, and he kind of went through with a machete and went like, too many characters, make this bigger, make this smaller. He was the one who sort of- Make Sebastian Jamaican.

Right, make Sebastian Jamaican, make Ursula divine, right? I mean, he had so many of the essential character hooks he brought with him. And it should be said, this movie is 80 minutes long. Wow. It, like, crams a whole plot in there, despite having lots of strange digressions. Like, you know, I mean, the most, obviously, the I Want song, uh, you know, I mean the most, obviously the,

I want song that, you know, part of your world is such an impressive thing. But like, I think Ashman in the Howard documentary, they talk about how poor, um, not poor,

you know, about how the Ursula convincing her to give up her voice. Poor unfortunate soul. Yeah, it is poor unfortunate. Yeah. It's all, it's all bundled in there.

Like the, like there's so much that happens in those four minutes that they get through without it seeming insane he talks about he talks about like how in poor unfortunate souls she literally introduces herself she's like what's your deal okay yeah she explains her whole plot she explains what you're gonna do and it's like i'm taking your voice by the end of the song like she literally poor unfortunate souls is such a good song it's incredible so hard i'm a very busy woman and i haven't got all day yeah i mean that's like the argument for for musicals as a storytelling form is not just the, you know, this sort of like emotionally ecstatic truth that you can reach, but also just like the fucking economy of this thing. That that shit goes down smoother in a song.

You know, you can get a lot of shoe leather out of the way. That's the thing, because if it was dialogue, Ariel would be like, oh, can I say bye to my dad? Like, I need to pack some things. And it's like, no, no, no. You're going to the earth now. And it's also just the buy-in. Like, as an audience member, you accept these sort of narrative leaps more easily because you've already bought into the idea that people sing their thoughts you know

it's just like right i think it's one of the reasons why the whole ratatouille musical thing on tiktok has been so potent is because like you step back and you're like ratatouille does feel like the premise of a musical it's almost more bizarre that they landed on that premise not in a musical because the idea that there are long dialogue scenes where he's like, if you pull this lock, this arm moves up, is wild. Absolutely. That only seems like that could be explained through a song. I do feel like the Ashman thing with this too is like,

one of the things that really annoys me that people always say when they're talking about Part of Your World is that it sounds exactly the same as Somewhere That's Green and like it does sound very similar to somewhere that's green from little shop but it's also just a typical i want song but i do feel like it is the thing that is so interesting about like what he was able to do is like he did this with little shop where and he talks a lot about this in the documentary where it's like, this is, I'm taking the horror form.

Like I'm plugging musical theater into this like B horror movie format in Little Shop. And then he sort of reverses that. And I think you see so much like it, Little Mermaid does feel like the sort of, of the three Disney musicals, like the one that's most like analogous to little shop in that way it has the built like poor unfortunate soul sort of does the same thing as feed me you know like yeah it offers the same thing you know somewhere that's green does the same thing as part

of your world blah blah blah but it's just really interesting because it's this fight this these two sort of in little shop he's putting musical into horror movie and you know in little mermaid he's putting musical into princess disney's animation like basically everything is forming each i'm like blabbering on but it feels like no no everything is informing it forming each other. I'm like blabbering on, but it feels like everything is informing each other and they're all, you know, and he's sort of so he's using these baseline formulas to like reinvent genres just time and time again. Absolutely. It makes it easy to digest. Right. On paper, Little Shop is an inherently sarcastic exercise. Right. On paper, Little Shop is an inherently sarcastic exercise, right? It's the idea of like, is anything less on paper obvious to turn into a musical? But it's both like something of a challenge to himself of like, look, works well in the sort of musical format whereas little mermaid is on paper much more of a musical but but the secret thing he unlocked in little

shop is to play it incredibly straight to have a real sincerity to the emotions so it's not like he has to like by removing the satirical edge, the songs in Little Mermaid feel defanged. The funniest thing he does in Little Shop is play the songs incredibly straight. Even though he's making fun of like the idea of the I want song with somewhere that's green. Right. You know, because she's singing about like wanting like watching Howdy Doody. But it also genuinely works as an i want song like you don't take it as a goof and it's also it's the ellen green thing of just like you get the right person

singing the song like it means everything in the world and you're gonna choke up you know it doesn't matter if a couple of the lines are jokes the thing is, and this is true of all three of his Disney movies, there's so much humor in the lyrics, even when it's serious. And Part of Your World has all these... Who's him and what's his? Yeah, exactly. And also, you can just Google it, but him directing Jodie Benson singing that song,

it's so cool to watch. Unbelievable. Yeah. Like, cause it's, and it's collaborative. I mean, he obviously was this very intense dude and had such fixed idea,

you know, specific ideas of like how, you know, like he's just one of those already types who knows he knows what he wants. Like, and he, it's more just how to figure out how to get it out of whoever he's collaborating. But she's so locked in

with him. It's so fun to watch them figure it out together. Well, she was also the star of Smile. She said, I feel like he offered me the chance to audition for Ariel

because he felt bad about Smile flopping so hard. And I think the two of them felt kind of unified in the idea of this might be the big break. There's a certain foxhole solidarity that comes when people fail together on that scale. You know? Yeah. Absolutely. Jodie Benson, of course, voice of Barbie in the toys. I was going to say,

I mean, I just think Jodie Benson never really gets enough credit and, and rewatching this movie today. It's such a fucking good performance, especially considering that she doesn't talk for the second half of the movie. Like the work she does in the first 45 minutes has to be strong enough to carry you through the remaining 45 minutes less but it absolutely true it's also just a total i mean glenn keen is

her animator right is the main anime and says that she looks like his wife yeah um and i mean it's she ariel is like the most incredible piece of character animation. Like the way her hair moves around. The hair alone. The hair is the whole fucking thing. The whole physicality of her. The hair is just so important. Yes, right. The hair is so, so, so important. Just like all her sort of flouncing, you know, her hand on chin.

Like there's just so much teenage-dom that I feel like when you're a kid, you just totally get it from her. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Glen Keane's one, you just totally get it from her. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Glen Keane's one of the best character animators in history. There have been few people that good at animation performance. And I think he's one of those guys where Rapunzel was his passion project for years and years and years. That's the one he wanted to make, right?

Right. Years and years and years. That's the one he wanted to make, right? Right. And to some degree, I think Disney kept fucking him over and not letting him direct because they didn't want to lose him as a lead animator. Because he was just so valuable on a character focus level that it's like, why make our best pitcher the team manager? Does that track, David? It does. No, the team manager. Does that track, David? It does. No, that absolutely makes, that's absolutely,

that was a very good analogy, actually. Hey! But that's right, because he's kind of your ace, exactly. Sure. One of the things I was thinking about, like, just in terms of watching, when I mentioned, like, watching it from this new perspective, thinking about the direction,

is the way that Musker and clements sort of like take not just like a straight lyric to visual sort of transfer but they take the spirit of ashman's lyrics like the way that we're talking about like throwing even in a perfectly serious, throwing in the jokes and interpret that like visually. Like I feel like, you know, part of your world is full of that in a way that I had sort of forgotten. Like, you know, you have Sebastian sort of watching part of your world the whole time

and like his reflection coming up. Right. That's when he switches sides, basically. Like that's him understanding her plight much more deeply. The best character in the movie. Yeah. But also he's like, he's knocking over things. He's like, there are these visual jokes within it.

You know, I just feel like it's so, it's really interesting. You know, it's such a collaborative art and it's so interesting looking at all the ways that. Wait a second. Did you know that Sebastian is his last name? What? No. I just Googled it.

I clicked on. What's his first name? Here is his full name. Here is his full name. And of course, as you guys mentioned, he's, and he's not in the Hans, of course, Hans Christian Andersen story, which you should read. And it's bananas and has nothing to do with the Little Mermaid, the movie, really. And she turns into sea foam at the end and yada, yada, yada. His name is Lin-Manuel Sebastian.

Sorry. It's not that big. But as you alluded to, he was originally going to be an English butler lobster. It totally makes sense that that's just so obvious. Why do we keep calling him a lobster? He's a crab. Yeah. No, he was going to be a lobster.

Oh, okay. And he was going to be called Clarence, not Sebastian. And I imagine he would have been like Zazu, right? He would have been like, oh, don't do that, right? Like a lot of, you know. It sounds like a fucking herb. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so Howard Ashman is like, no, he should be a crab.

He should be like Jamaican. And I want to write the music to that. But apparently his full name is Horatio Thelonious Ignatius Crustaceous Sebastian. That fucking rules. That is the best name of all time. Holy shit. And of course, he's voiced by Samuel E. Wright, who is so wonderful in this movie.

The design of Sebastian. I believe he originated Mufasa on Broadway. He did. He was Mufasa for years. He originated Mufasa on Broadway. Yeah. That He was Mufasa. I love the design of this. He originated Mufasa on Broadway. Yeah. That's the thing I was going to say, too. Trying to identify what is, like, the specific sort of skill set that Musker Clements bring to these movies against the other films of the Disney Renaissance.

I feel like there's a sort of, how do I even put this? There is a sort of holistic tone that is able to cover all of the different modes that the movie has to play in, right? Between genuine menace and romance and comedy and swooning emotions and the music and the dialogue scenes and all of that. and swooning emotions and the music and the dialogue scenes and all of that. And I feel like a lot of the non-Musker Clements films, as enjoyable as they may be, there is that sort of like cognitive dissonance between like, oh, Mushu is really goofy.

And then there are scenes in Mulan that are really straight. You know, I feel like Pocahontas, which I like more than a lot of people has that problem too, where like some of it is like really kind of like arty and adult and then some of it is so goofball McGillicuddy. Hunchback is similar. Same thing! Perfect example, like Hunchback is

in a way my favorite of the era but then you just have to ignore all the shit with the gargoyles which sticks out like a sore thumb. And I feel like the Musker-Clements films are balanced. They know they have the right sort of comedic energy to be able to contain all of this while still giving it appropriate weight.

I agree with you completely. I think this is why, as much as I like Hunchback, and I like... Fuck, we mentioned another one that i really like because pocahontas mulan i have trouble with no but but hunchback i love i think tarzan has this problem too tarzan hugely has right the shit with the tiger and the shit with rosie o'donnell it feels it feels crammed in it feels like disney checking boxes like well and then come on the kids need a funny

sidekick they need a right and musk and clements and part of the thing that they i don't know what it is about them that like they nail this i think with this and with aladdin but like it's it's that every character just feel i don't they just sell you on sebastian the crab being the number two guy who's gonna kind of work with triton and with ariel doesn't make any sense i don't know like whatever a lot of its personality and a lot of its good comedic instincts right i mean like comedy is one of the the fastest ways to successfully uh uh sort of define character and I think they get that, but it also, like, this, you see this movie coming up with a template

that starts to doom Disney to diminishing returns after this. I'm not saying everything from here on out is bad, but it's like the TV dinner thing of, like, okay, you need four animal sidekicks. Two of them talk, two of them are silent.

The romantic interest is like this. The villain's like this. The villain has three henchmen. You have this many comedy scenes, this much physical comedy, this much romance. This movie is such a successfully rounded balance of everything. The other thing is obviously the factor

and not to take away from Musgrave Lemmets' contributions, but obviously the other factor is like obviously the factor that's not and not to take away from musk and clements is like contributions but like obviously the other factor is that like also ashman is not involved in the like the like outside of he's not absolutely no he's not he's not like and and outside of but you sort of see you almost sort of see him and maybe it's a Mencken thing too. It's hard to sort of interpret it. What like what's there, but like you see almost the lessons that maybe musk and clones absorbing the lessons that like, and the tone that Howard is bringing.

I think all of the songs in these later works, you know, I mean, it's so funny. Cause like Hercules is obviously not an Ash, like Ashman had died before, but you know i mean it's so funny because like hercules is obviously not an ash like ashman had died before but you know but the like the you know the um uh the muses are basically the same convention yeah ashman would have crushed that movie i mean ashman is the missing element in hercules which is a really interesting movie at that but that's what it's lacking

you sort of wonder if because the longone Reindeer was the first one, it was the first one where all these elements came together, that maybe Musker and Clemens, farther down the line, absorbed more of sort of just this process that worked so well. I agree, and I think we'll spend a whole episode on Hercules, but my instinct from the last couple times I've rewatched it is like, I think the songs in Hercules, but my instinct, you know, from the last couple times I've rewatched it, is like, I think the songs in Hercules rule. I think it doesn't

have the story instincts that Ashman would have brought to how those songs correspond to the movie at large. And I think like, I think Ashman taught Mustard and Clements and Disney animation at large a lot about storytelling that I think started to get watered down and become a little more rote and mechanized his lessons after his death.

But I also think you have to give Musker and Clements a lot of credit for execution because of how much they had to successfully sell this through the performance of the animation, a medium that he did not know at all. Like, even though you see the clips of how much he was working with the voiceover actors and the orchestra and how much he was working with the writers and everything at the end of the day, Musker and Clements didn't just have to make this work visually, but they had to make it work on a visual performance level, which they really, really do. I just, just my final point, Musker and Clements, Moana I think is the biggest testament to this because Moana excises things that it doesn't need.

Yeah. Like it doesn't have a lot of the stuff that we're talking about in ways that feel like, well, we have to do this. So we're going to do, you know, like, yes, of course she's got a little chicken with her and we stand the chicken. The chicken's great. so we're gonna do you know like yes of course she's got a little chicken with her and we stand the chicken the chicken's great and we're gonna talk about the chicken but they just don't feel the need to like have the chicken talk and have a

song you know like it just feels like they know they leave that pig on the island i know it's such a wild choice yeah it's so funny too because like when they leave the pig on the island i remember thinking like i can't believe they're sacrificing merchandise sales like that by leaving the pig on the island and then i speak to like kids like my friends who have young kids and they love the fucking pig and i'm like shows me like it still works you get 10 minutes of the pig and the kids buy the pig for the rest of their life. Pig rules. Come on. Yeah, pig rules.

We'll talk about the pig. So, Little Mermaid. Ariel is a princess. She lives in an underwound kingdom apparently called Atlantica. What the fuck? Atlantica? David, just because I'm a little confused about something.

What size is she? She's low. Oh, okay. She's a little mermaid. It's What size is she? She's low. She's a little mermaid. It's a fair point. She's not little. She's regular size. No, she's kind of a little mermaid compared to Triton.

Triton is an absolute unit. Look at the size of that lad. He is huge. His fucking trident is bigger than Ariel. Triton's nipples are very large the nipple thing has resonated with me i think from birth i i think i always was like there's something wild about this guy's big old nips like you know that just sort of makes him more dad like i guess in a weird way i don't know if i have more for you on that when you when you watch

this would you get tear in your eye do you go it reminds me of daddy's nips is that what you're saying it's not it's not that it's like it's just like there's something there's everything about him is big i guess i guess is what i'm talking about um right nips hair crown trident and bad attitude i mean you know the the guy's got a bit of a short fuse yeah um but he does love his daughter his daughter only loves the human world yeah she wants to go there she wants to it's it's the simplest story she just wants to escape she wants to grow up and you know roam beyond pastures home right it's the same thing it's that potency it's the let it go thing of just like any kid of any age capable of cognizant thought right uh can uh can can track on to that feeling of just like, I'm over it. I'm so frustrated with this.

And what my parents tell me I have to do. And Ariel's the same thing where it's just like dreaming about what life will be like if you get to do things on your own terms. Right. She's also though kind of like into like vintage. And she's like, this is all stuff I didn't realize until i'm watching

it recently she's kind of like exploring like abandoned old factories found our kind of thing do you know what i'm saying like i really related she like pieced out on this recital to go like go to an abandoned sunken boat i'm like hell yeah you're cool as hell right tangle with a shark that is no joke that shark wants to murder her even though she's like he's princess of the sea she she's essentially like she's got like her her like pinterest curation of like objects right yes like her mood board of like yeah perfect teenager again we can all relate right like that's and okay sebastian of course as conductor of triton's orchestra is keeping tabs on her yeah and you know i'll say and triton wants her to get with a guy but unlike in aladdin where

they're like throwing suitors at jasmine or whatever like it's not like triton's bringing anyone around i he's making no effort to actually like give i guess he's trying to present her to society in the first scene is that sort of the idea maybe she's they're introducing her right like it's that this will be like her her big intro to adulthood like it's her cotillion. Yeah. But I feel like he's not really that concerned with like marrying her off. He just like wants her to chill out.

But when she's, when she's in love, he's like, Oh, who's she in love with? And I'm like, who do you think? Like,

there's no men around here. Like, what do you think? She fell in love with a rock? Like Harold, Harold, that guy with the rough um sebastian is the movie's most well okay you know what actually no we should mention that the movie starts on a boat and there's a lot of you know action with the the

sailors the guys as well like it introduces you to eric first and then to triton and his kids and then to ariel like it's not even um trying to you know ariel's sort of this elusive figure for the first 10 minutes of the movie uh yeah yeah i mean it's it's once again it's weirdly something that gets replicated like uh uh pocahontas has like the virginia uh uh trading company right right we're saying frozen has that sort of opening but like you do the kind of world immersion number with a bunch of anonymous grunts just to place you in the setting uh right and then you do a lot of wind up of the palace the the world the rules um i mean this was the last sort of analog um 2d movie hand after after this it goes to caps it goes to um you know computer scans and paints and colors um this is

the last movie done in the traditional styles but then with all these really complex effects added in like the amount of bubble work in this movie right wait fuck there was some stat about that it's uh mark dindle who of course eventually so insane i i kept thinking i kept noticing the bubbles on this watch just how much how hard that must have been and right because the bubbles are anytime they speak or move there are bubbles mark dindle who goes on to make the emperor's new groove is in charge of the effects and he said they drew one million bubbles yeah that must have been very boring fucking That's fucking insane. Right. But like, this is the last one that's still using like a multi-plane camera and a

Xerox machine and all these sort of like old techniques. Um, you have some CGI elements, like the ship is CGI, you know, anytime you see the big ships, I mean, sort of structures like that.

Um, but there, there is a, a tactility to this, which also just like the shit like the hair in the bubbles just blows your fucking mind there is something to the fact that you'd never get out of your head like someone had to draw this like there's no simulation for this you know yeah it and it's beautiful i mean it does look cheaper than aladdin or beauty and the

beast maybe it's just because they're switching to caps after this right but like in a way that is charming like it's not like it looks bad and those are also just generally more expensive and expansive productions it just it feels it feels smaller than that like yeah the movie is really small it has like five locations in total and five of those locations are very loose locations and the fifth lead is literally the fucking seagull maybe sixth lead right depending on where you put flounder right it is it is a very contained movie in a lot of ways. It is. And it's 80 minutes long, but has, you know,

a sequence where Rene Arbejonois plays a chef who tries to cook fish, which is a great sequence, obviously, that is the best, that's straight out of Looney Tunes, but like, cuttable in theory, like,

you know, it has these beautiful, quite like the moment where she watches the fireworks off the boat and Mencken's score which is like

his greatest score ever is going so cool and so atmospheric I think Beauty and the Beast is his greatest score that's

well that is yeah no that is I think Beauty and the Beast is his greatest score but sorry yeah no that's well that is yeah no that is i think this is greatest score but sorry yeah no that's not a controversial thing that's totally the other score that i think is also his maybe most like could be one of his greatest scores is hunchback i think hunchback is an incredible score um you know i should re-watch hunchback it's been a while hunchback's really good uh it's great

i remember i loved it yeah it is just one of those things where it's like i i understand music so little that i wish i had the language but also just the ability to comprehend why the is immediately so powerful, you know? And I don't just think it's a nostalgia thing. There's something about just like, it's some weird, that combination of notes at that speed just immediately is so evocative. And it's evocative of the exact thing.

It sounds like underwater and it also sounds like longing. It sounds like that sort of childlike optimistic longing. And for it to contain both of those things at the same time, I don't understand how you land on something that simple and that elegant and that potent. And she does like, you know, throw her life away essentially because she swims up to a boat and looks at eric and eric's playing the flute like a you know like a boss and she loves it yeah and yes obviously if you interrogate this from a logical plot like then yes you'll get yourself in trouble it's yes there are lots of things about these disney movies that are fraught but it's that elemental longing. She wants this thing that is so different. But it's also like, it doesn't matter what guy it's,

I mean, like, obviously it's complicated with like the ending, but it sort of doesn't matter what guy it is. It's just like, he is everything that she does not have. He has legs. He's on land. That's like literally all she wants. He's hot. And, you know, he's on land, that's, like, literally all she wants, he's hot, and, you know, she's a teenager.

Like, I think that's the thing that, like, I realized watching it as an adult that was, like, so seductive. It's like, she is supposed to be 16. She says her age. Yeah, and 16-year-olds do shit like this. Like, it's fucked up that she gets married at the end of it, but, like, you know,

but that's the Disney movie. And married at the end of it but like you know but that's that's the disney movie and eric's the same way too where it's just like you know it's funny that eric is the one who gets more of this sort of setup of like they've aggressively been trying to marry him off he's been meeting potential brides who he doesn't like, right? Important question. What is Grimsby's relationship to Eric? Every single time I watch this movie, I think Rene Aubergineau is Grimsby because I'm just like, obviously that's what you cast him as.

And then you get to the chef and I'm like, right, these lunatics. No, so Eric is, as far as I can tell, a prince. It's just that he doesn't want any princely trappings right so he serves on the boat with the old sea dogs and he you know keeps it real with his sheep dog is his big furry dog so grimsby is the guy who's like well of course i'm here to keep an eye on you right like he's the sebastian he's the parents send out the one guy to just be like, just keep tabs. In case he falls in love with a mermaid

and or a really hot lady who just kind of has sea witch energy, just watch out for one of those. Maybe she's got a shell necklace that glows. I've always thought that Ursula in human form was

supremely hot. She's like hotter than Ariel. She's so hot. I was texting with Caroline and I'm like, uh-huh. Sure. Friend of the show. It's like interesting. I'll listen to your shell. You tell me whatever. Yeah.

Whatever, man. Framke was like, yeah, there's an early crush for me in that movie. Can you guess? And I was like, is it Ursula as a woman or Vanessa? And she was like, bingo. Because, you know, obviously Ariel is a famous whatever early crush, I suppose, for kids. But Vanessa, she's out there.

Keep an eye out. Yeah, I honestly had the the exact opposite thought of she just seems too mean like I had I distinctly I I was like I had the thought I went I guess she's pretty but she just seems so mean I mean she is mean she's Urssula and ursula is me um yeah and ursula you know unlike scar or jafar where i guess they're all similar figures right they're outcast geniuses who are like uh you know all i want is to be in charge but i'm like i'm the weirdo i'm the scary one i'm right i'm over here but ursula is phenomenal like everything

God this movie is so good it's tough to talk about just the way every character is animated I'm kind of freaking out you know like and Aladdin does this too everyone's a different shape everyone moves in a different way right this feels very like the way

Ursula moves is so wonderful the the transformation when vanessa turns back into ursula and she kind of like explodes out of her is so cool ursula is so cool she's so cool i love that first intro i had sort of forgotten about that first introduction when she like slinks out of the hole right when she slinks out of the hole but also then it's like that sort of it's that brief scene where you meet her it's prior to poor unfortunate souls and then it ends with like the her tentacles sort of taking over the screen and you just are left with like her eyes and it's right wasn't so ursula was written or maybe not written to be i was obviously based on divine disney wasn't going to hire divine disney really wanted b arthur especially because

they produced golden girls and they thought that was synergistic b arthur turned it down and then elaine stritch was hired right she was cast and did not vibe with Ashman. Sorry, before Ashman wanted it to be Joan Collins. Right. That was another one. He wanted Joan Collins or whatever. She was a huge, he would cite Alexis Carrington, her character from Dynasty as like,

this is the vibe I want, this is the vibe I want but yes, they did hire Elaine Stritch and they did not get along, her and Ashman Yeah, I mean I guess I was gonna say I wonder what happened but then I just thought to myself, well I've seen the fucking

It's the company documentary Exactly, it's the company documentary They just don't seem like they would work So you're just like, animation is just recording a soundtrack only. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Elaine Stritch, whatever.

Right. That's not her energy. So Pat Carroll, I mean, I feel like she's just like a Broadway person. Right. She did like a Wonder Woman show on Gertrude Stein. Like, you know, like that kind of stuff. What was the thing I saw her in recently? She was also, I believe, Shirley's mom on Laverne and Shirley.

Yes. Oh, yes. She was. You know, I've been watching the Mary Tyler Moore show and she has a fucking unbelievable episode of the Mary Tyler Moore show moore show where i was just like sure who the fuck is this the whole episode is sort of based around this this one-off character she plays and then realized oh that's ursula um but her voice is so goddamn deep and incredible incredible it's so cool she's still alive you know she's 93 years old yeah it's wild mazel her it's one of those things where like you hear you know divine had obviously died by the time this movie came out although you know it was obviously in production before that but like you hear some of the people

they thought about like nancy marchand and rosanne right you know uh nancy nancy marchand yeah and like you're like that's, Tony Soprano's mother. Right. But at the same time, you're like, but no one else could have done, like, this is a perfect voice performance. Like, it's ridiculous to imagine

even Elaine Stritch or whatever. I also saw this, it was playing weirdly, like, one Saturday afternoon at a bunch of AMC theaters like a year ago. And I went to see it impulsively because I hadn't seen since I was a small child. So I'd seen this movie in a captive audience, you know,

on a big screen, full attention fairly recently before rewatching it today. And even still the first syllable out of her mouth, I was just like, whoa, like totally taken aback, surprised, caught off guard. You know, I think that's maybe the hard thing the thing about ursula that makes it like hard to imagine you know just going back to the melissa mccarthy conversation it really is hard to imagine someone doing ursula as well as this voice performance it would have to be such like a radical choice that there's something so specific it feels so universal like it does feel like it's taking all these influences like you know Alexis Carrington you know Define like it's taking all these influences but at the same time it's so unique and it's sort of any imitation of it feels false.

It's almost like I wish they just cast like Harvey Fierstein in it or something. So it'd be just like completely different. I mean, a lot of people were arguing they should have cast a man, which I think there's a really solid argument there, especially since it visually the character is modeled after Divine. Right. Yeah. since visually the character is modeled after Divine, right? Yeah. You know, but I also think, like, did either of you see the Lizzo video?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. Like, it became such a meme sort of thing that I was just like, okay, but are we actually, like, gonna cast her? And then I watched it, and it was just like, no, you know what? She actually would do this well. She was just like like disney why won't you take my meeting i want to play ursula and then they wouldn't respond so she just posted a video where she painted herself up like ursula and saying 10 seconds of it and nailed it and she was like no one's reached out to me and then they just announced you know like oh, oh, Melissa McCarthy's in advance. I think they already were deep

on that road. Yeah, that's too bad because, right, I mean, that does, I don't know. Look, yeah, again, we'll see the movie, and again, I have such hope. I have no hope for that movie anyway. I know. But just five seconds, I just watched the little thing for five seconds. I'm like,

that's a good vibe. I don't know. That seems cool. It's just, it feels like Ursula has to be her, like in order to do it well, if it's not this, you know, Pat Carroll and what she's doing, it has to be its own thing. It's the one calculation I think they made correctly

with the guy, Richie Aladdin, was just like, Will Smith is the right choice on that level of just like you've got to find someone who has their own thing but has an entirely different thing because you're never going to have you know someone try

to replicate Robin Williams and have it not be upsetting and Melissa McCarthy just feels like the wrong thing the other thing i guess i guess like captain hook is the first disney villain who pops i'm really looking through the history of disney because like the early ones the villains don't matter that much yeah sure the wicked queen and snow white or whatever but like they like so crucial to the renaissance movies is that you kind of are rooting for the villain

like every time they're scheming, right? Like Jafar, Scar, like, you know, these are, I mean, even Gaston, like they're fun. They have good songs. They have a lot of humor. And like,

it's not like that's completely unheard of in the old, like obviously Maleficent is a very compelling villain. Hook and Maleficent are the first two who are kind of alluring. I think the first one who may be, I mean, Cruella is so downright villainous, but she's also super compelling. Yeah.

Right, and super cool. So there's her as well. And that's all post-Princess. That's all in the early 60s. The 60s. But I do think uh radigan who we discussed last week and and ursula it that's that's the new model like yeah this is gonna be almost a secondary protagonist and that thing of like they gotta have a song they gotta

be funny and scary yes and i think poor unfortunate souls is the best villain song i think i prefer it to guest so good no of course never gaston's great i mean it's like i don't i have antlers and all of my decorating is i mean um um Jafar doesn't get the song it's just like so incredible it's some good shit yeah very good shit so yeah I mean I don't know

it's like we've kind of like we've been tackling this for a bunch of different the things we haven't talked about are under the sea and kiss the girl for sure yeah but apart from that right like are there other right well they're they're in. But apart from that Right, well they're in the ocean. That came up I think. They are

Under the Sea. They're not above the sea. Duh-sea. That number is Duh-sea. That number is just so fucking wild.

Under the Sea? Yeah. But also the lyrics the lyrics are so great the lyrics are so insane and also just the like the visual what they're doing with all the fish and yeah you know the rapid cutting like which is sort of weird for Disney, where it, like, speeds up as it goes along. And you have this semi-Busby Berkeley energy, which I know they were sort of perfect on, like, with Be Our Guest. But, like, it, you know, you have so many different fish. I don't know. That's what I was going to say. Like, Be Our Guest really kind of heightens this because they have a much bigger budget. There are a lot of technical breakthroughs. You're able to do sort of larger choreography. And this number, they have to sort

of establish through a lot of editing because they just don't have the power, the infrastructure, the time, the resources to do like a big group shot of 80 fish all dancing perfectly choreographed with each other. So it's all these weird little vignettes, you know, it's all these weird little, like close to shots of a couple of fish, these lyrics that are specifically referencing just the two or three fish you're seeing on screen at that moment.

The rhythm is all established through editing more than dancing. But it's just such a fucking jam and it's also so wild that it's like here's like you know howard ashton's coming and he's like look this is the the cornerstones of of emotional storytelling through song the i want song this and that and also just a song where a fucking uh crab tells you how cool shit is under the sea. He's not wrong. What is your favorite lyric in Under the Sea? Because mine is,

nobody beat us, fry us, and eat us in fricassee. In fricassee. That's my favorite lyric. Which is very funny. I'm pulling it up right here so I don't get the words wrong. David, what's your favorite? I mean, there's so many uh good options such as the trout rocking out like i like i like the when he starts going like the ray he can play

the links on the strings like when he starts going through different fish species the chub play the tub the you know all that the fluke is the duke of soul um but i don't think there's anything better than hot crustacean band like i don't think yeah it anything better than Hot Crustacean Band like I don't think it can be underrated that that Ashman was like that's gonna be a button like I'm gonna think Hot Crustacean Band is gonna work in a song

for five year olds like they'll sing that the one that made me giggle out loud is even the Sturgeon and the Ray they get the urge and start to play. I think so much of it is the animation performance there. Because you see the two fish kind of looking at each other all ornery. And then they break down.

They're like, come on, what if we just jammed right now? Yeah, we in luck here, down in the muck here. Not to keep referencing Bob, but he kept saying, he like, can you credit Sebastian with for the Ska revival? Thanks to. There's an argument. Which is a good point. Real big fish might line up like age wise with this movie. Real big fish, real small crab.

Sebastian's my favorite character in this movie. I find his design so incredible especially because like little feet what but even just his face it's just like the proportions he's like all brow uh everything about him but my single favorite moment the entire movie is that like moment he has to himself where he's like i'm wasting the best years of my life like i should be writing symphonies like this whole idea it adds so much weird emotional weight to under the sea this song that otherwise feels a little frivolous because it's like this guy is stuck in this fucking shitty administrative job like looking after his boss's daughter he wants to be fucking orchestrating a hot crustacean band this is the whole thing his role he it makes no sense that this guy initially he's

the scold who tells ariel to stop worrying about the human world then he's the fun band leader who's like life's great under the sea and you're like this guy's right life is great under the sea and then later he's like dude i get it you just gotta make out like and and then he's like raising his eyebrows and singing a song about kissing and you're like yeah i get this energy from sebastian that makes sense it follows like he he works it on and then he has a whole sequence escaping the le poisson guy and as esther pointed out to me essentially murders him and you're into that too sebastian ends the movie with murder i mean like or at least maiming he like he he injures him he he all of his teeth fall out and then sebastian just like hops off the boat and is like fuck you i'm out but But, like, I had teachers in high school who were, like, you know, like, pulled me aside after class,

and they were like, dude, look, between you and I, I think you're funny, but come on, man, I can't support this shit. You know? Like, first of all, you don't do any homework, and second of all, we're in a class. Like, objectively, I think you're funny but enough of this you know and i feel like sebastian's that kind of thing where he's just like look it's my job okay i can't i cannot co-sign this and eventually he just gets broken down right that's i like that i mean as we know she gives up her voice she's got to kiss him these are the rules they got to kiss within three days you think she could just fucking kiss him but i guess do they have to like

it has to be true love um but then i do love that right then in the third act there's literally a scene where sebastian's like did they make out yet like they're they're all just talking about it yeah and it's not happening so he's like guess i better like put on the best fuck performance of my life you have a kiss symphony but that's what i'm saying there's like this great sebastian narrative where like there is she helps him realize that like i can't be wasting any more of my best years like stuck in this fucking perfunctory gig because it's like you're saying they're right there's that cool moment before kiss the girls where he's like because uh scuttle squawking because yeah scuttle he's making an effort and he he like dives down

and he like breaks a reed to make a conductor stick yeah and then goes back up and he get the ducks and the turtles he's right you know he's like he's like, all right, come on, come on. Let's let's let's let's make an effort here. But that's what I'm talking about. That fucking. No, I agree. One line about the symphonies makes the world of difference because suddenly you're just like, this isn't just, oh, Sebastian songs are good because he's in a musical. It's like, no, Sebastian's thing is this is his life.

This is his passion. And you know what about kiss the girls and now and kiss the girls jesus that's the morgan freeman movie kiss the girl um you know he's like percussion strings right he's like uh introing everything right and then he goes woods and he's not talking to anyone and he's talking about himself and he's got this face where he looks so serious. And you're like, yeah, he's fine. Like he's connected with what you're talking about.

His passion is back. The spark is awoken. Right. This movie could be called how Sebastian got his groove back. It should be. And I'm glad that you said it. I wish he was in more movies.

Like I watched Con Air today as well. And I'm like, why did Dave Chappelle stop being in movies? Why didn't Sebastian play Tom Hanks' best friend in some movie? Oh, God. And, you know, as Kiss the Girl, like this is a sexy movie, not in a gross way. Well, probably for some reason, ben was just browsing dbnr but like like you know the reprisive part of your world where she you know sings the final line and the wave crashes behind her and it's like orgasmic thing like the movie is you know it's like playing

with passion yeah in ways that disney movies, you know, Disney movies usually very chased. Also, I straight up just like shed a single tear on that moment. I feel like it's so good. It's hitting real hard and locked down the whole aerial. Like I, I want to be out there. I want to be living.

Yeah. I'm aerial. I big mood. I feel ya. I also, I love, uh, like I love a reprise so much. Like I love the. Big mood. I feel ya. I also, I love, like, I love a reprise so much. Like, I love the sort of swelling. And this one is just the best.

I mean, I also love the, like, the Beauty and the Beast reprise of Belle. But, like, this one's the best. Like, I don't know when, I don't know how, but I know something's starting right now. Yeah, it's, that's what, fuck, that's what I should have done for the opening. I should have done that one rather than the passage I did. I don't know when, I don't know how, but I know something's starting right now. Yeah, that's what I should have done for the opening. I should have done that one rather than the passage I did. I don't know how, but I know something's starting right now. Yeah. I'd still do part of their cast.

I just think that's the better intro. Moana does that really well, too. The way they build. Right, right, right. Because you burn the big emotional song early on and you're like that's it and it's like no no no hold on they'll bring it back

absolutely it is just kind of wild then the remaining 40 minutes of this movie are Ariel's a mutant it's a lot of shit with Sebastian trying not to get eaten and the dog and like trying to get him to kiss trying to get him to kiss. Sebastian's either trying to get him to kiss or not get eaten.

Ursula is causing trouble as a human. There's a whole sequence at dinner where Ariel combs her hair with a fork and blows smoke into Lord Stuffington's face. They do this sort of perfunctory like she's spunky girl when he

takes her on the tour of the town and she like dives under the carriage and she takes control and they jump over the big thing and the right yeah right yeah she's got spunk so he's like you it sort of makes it makes up for him being like attracted to a mute girl that that's the stuff that's very splash adjacent where i don't understand why they wouldn't want to replicate a movie that's very splash adjacent where I don't understand why they wouldn't want to replicate a movie that was very successful for them. But I also realized they were trying to make splash too, which I guess ultimately went straight to TV.

But I think splash is so much the literal fish out of water comedy. That's yeah. That's the stuff for me. None of it's bad, but it's, it's, it, it's a little less exciting. None of it's bad, but it's a little less exciting

all the sort of like, Ariel doesn't understand how to be a human shit. Now, when things don't work out, when the sun sets before they make out, and then there's this great scene where, right, where Triton, yeah, seriously, where Triton is like come on enough of this and

she uses the contract as a shield which i always think is really cool where she's like this is literally unbreakable and triton gives it up and she becomes the queen and she's big go ahead esther yeah oh i just we haven't talked about her souls yet. I like her souls. Oh, her little souls. Interesting design. And the fact that she just like keeps these like sort of like plant humans with big eyes and they're sort of. Yeah, they're like little. They're weirdly drawn.

Yeah. It's really, it's, it's, they're weird as hell and I really love them. But is she scary when she's big? Yeah. When I was a kid, very scared of this. Very scary. Still scary, right? Yeah.

I think still Ben's got his background right now. It's it's it's genuinely scary. I mean, that's another. She's like her voice is crazy. Right. She's like, you fools. Like she's suddenly like really feeling herself she sort of reminds me of like

the Beetlejuice big thing where it's like the you know the crab thing yes when Beetlejuice does the carnival barker like rise yeah yeah I mean she also it's basically she goes super saiyan like that's what

happens she goes super saiyan right and this's what happens. She goes Super Saiyan. Right. And this is the thing. Often in these Disney movies, there's really kind of a last act with the villain. It's two minutes. She gets the trident. She's like, rule number one, I'm 500 feet tall. Rule number two, all you motherfuckers are going to die.

And so they just kill her with the boat, like, right away. Like, it's really quick. die and so they just kill her with the boat like right away like it's really quick it's one of those things that i think sometimes like a i see the broken after effects of like certain shitty screenwriting books where people think like oh you need to hit all these story beats and every one of these story beats needs to be of equal screen time to give him time right yeah right and it's like you can hit the thing like Like, Luke Skywalker's refusal of the call is 90 seconds. You know? Right. Like, Ariel going,

or Ursula going Super Saiyan is two minutes. Like, you should hit these beats, but it doesn't have to be a whole fucking to-do. It shouldn't be. It's like, yeah, we all agree. Ursula being this big and making this much trouble? Not a good long-term strategy. We don't want this. Let's ram a boat into her.

Like, right? There's just nothing more to be said. Yeah. And I do also like that she is motivated to go insane because she flotsam and jetsam die. Right. And she says, my poopies or whatever. Yeah, I think that's her exact line. I think she says, my poopies or whatever. Yeah. I think, I think that's her exact line. I think she says, my poopies or whatever. I love the Triton moment when Sebastian goes back to her and I forget,

I'm going to fucking misquote it. But where he does kind of a Simon Cowell thing. Yeah. I guess the bad news is how much I'm going to miss her or whatever. Yeah. But it's a sweet moment it's also so weird that it's kenneth mars who's like a fucking mel brooks company player and is such a goofball absolutely it's it's super weird uh he's also um professor screw eyes and we're back at Dinosaur Stories. Right, right. But Kenneth Mars is Franz Liebkin in The Producers and he's the guy with the arm in Young Frankenstein. I never realized that.

Wow. Yeah, yeah. It's a very odd casting. He's also, do you remember in Malcolm in the Middle where there was the German guy who owned the dude ranch? That's him. Right. That was like one of those weird subplots of Malcolm in the middle where there was the german guy who owned the dude ranch that's him right that was like one of those weird subplots of malcolm in the middle um anyway he's good though and like you see yeah no it's weird again the movie's moving so fast at this point we got like four minutes to go and but it it all i guess it's just all in the characters and how they're

animated like ariel's reaction to that feels very genuine right like it's all nice yeah yeah it's just all in the characters and how they're animated. Ariel's reaction to that feels very genuine, right? It's all nice. Yeah, yeah. It's just, I don't know. The movie gets in and gets out, and it gets its business done, and it fucking rips. Can't argue.

Yeah. Oh, boy. It's good shit. Yeah, and It becomes the first Disney movie To get an Academy Award Nomination of Any stripe

Since Bedknobs And Broomsticks Oh okay That's crazy No not ever But in decades But in decades Decades

The brand was so dead Yeah And it wins Two Oscars For score And for Under the Sea And Kiss the Girl Is also nominated weirdly part

of your world is not yeah um and now i don't even want to it's not like there were other good songs nominated i think it was just that uh i i mean sometimes the rules would change as to how many songs a certain movie could have and it would go up or down in any given year lion king was nominated for at least three songs yeah dream girls got three but but i feel like they're constantly fucking with those rules every other year um i also think under the sea just none of these other songs i could sing a they none of them exist yeah but yeah under the sea no i mean under the sea is a banger to be clear it's also just the earworm thing

I think that's the big thing if you're a parent who took your kid to see this and you're voting on the Oscars a couple months later you're just like I have not gotten that song out of my head yes the only thing is and it's a good win it's just that after that they always give it to the

ballad Beauty and the Beast, Whole New World Kenny for the love tonight are the winner and it's like none of those i think are the best fun song one yeah but this is his only the only oscar he was alive for right the other yeah i believe that's right right he didn't he died before beauty and the beast um yeah it's wild my fun personal story is my parents actually went to the Golden Globes that year because my dad directed many episodes of a television show called Empty Nest, which was a Golden Girls spinoff. Also a TV show called The In-Laws, Danis Farina. Go on. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. And they ran into Howard there, but also I was there because I was in utero. Wow. Hey! We stan. He is, I mean, I highly recommend the the howard documentary on disney plus for people who haven't seen it it's really good context especially for these two uh episodes this and aladdin that

we're doing uh but it is just it is one of those uh artistic losses that is is pretty difficult to even calculate when you think about like this is his first thing that really permeates the pop culture at large and then he's dead you know within like three years he with within two years yeah i mean like he he told menken that he had aids the night they won the oscar for this movie and right right two years right year later, he was dead. It's just kind of impossible to even imagine what he would have done with another... There would have been 10 Disney movies.

Yes. Right, exactly. Right. It's so wild. And I do feel like as... I don't know. I mean, it's... We talked about the AIDS crisis

when we did the Philadelphia episode. But but it's it's like it was such a uniquely tragic thing in terms of how many artistic voices we lost because of the specific, you know, obviously the communities that were affected most severely by the AIDS crisis in a way where, like, I don't know if there's been the tragedy of that scale in COVID times, you know? If there's, like, a clear, like... No, I mean, right, it's hard to reckon with, right. Yeah. I don't know.

It's just, certainly watching the Ashman documentary, however many months ago when it launched, I couldn't stop thinking of weird cultural parallels I think there's a thing with this movie in terms of its box office performance that happens a couple times in this era of Disney where they have like

two movies and one of them they think is the big deal and one of them they're just like who knows and the who knows movie always right so Oliver and Company was the big movie Like, who knows? And the Who Knows movie always... Right, so Oliver and Company was the big movie. Right, they were like, this is, we're making a younger, more modern, it's pop-driven, it's all this shit. And then Little Mermaid became the big thing.

I mean, I know the big thought was, would this be the first animated movie to make $100 million? be the first animated movie to make a hundred million dollars and it came close and then that threshold is finally crossed by um beauty and the beast aladdin becomes the first to make 200 million dollars but this did 85 first round it did it correct it did 85 million dollars um domestic and i guess its final worldwide total probably probably including everything, is like 230 or something. Yeah, yeah, right, before it comes out on video and whatever. And I was saying right before we recorded, they put this out on video

within six months of it coming out in theaters, which was seen as radical, was treated like it was the HBO Max move. But the other two examples of the thing I was talking about, Treasure Planet, Lilo, and Stitch was that same deal, and Pocahontas and Lion King. But the other two examples of the thing I was talking about, Treasure Planet, Lilo and Stitch was that same deal.

And Pocahontas and Lion King. Right. That's the one I always think of. They were like Lion King. Who knows? Pocahontas obviously will kill for us. But that's the thing. They're thinking two movies back.

You know, that's what it always is. You know, it makes sense, obviously. The movie opened number three on November 17th,th 1989 because it opened only on a thousand screens because disney especially back then loved to do a rollout um so it's not number three it's not number one at the box office griffin number one at the box office is opening huge i gotta say 16 million dollars in 1989 is is a solid opening for a movie that is universally thought of as a stinker. Interesting. Was a sort of a big passion project for a giant movie star that I guess did not bomb financially, but was a Razzie winner. You know what I mean?

Is it an Eddie Murphy movie? It is. It's not Harlem Nights, is it an eddie murphy movie it is it's it's uh it's not harlem knights is it it is harlem knights yeah see i argued about this with you recently because i feel like harlem knights came up in some other episode harlem knights was back to the future part it was a hit right back to the future part two is a couple weeks later is a week later that's the thing like harlem knights did not ignite the world but it was a hit made money but people were just like no

Eddie you've gone too far Eddie you can't direct you can't make dramas Eddie like what are you doing right like it was like this just classic ah the star is overcooked I don't know 89 is also like the first modern box office year where you have like big opening last crusade

Batman Ghostbusters 2 yeah that back to the future 2 back to the future 2 yeah and little mermaid um uh so yeah so right so a lot of these are in the back to the future game uh so number two griffin high concept comedy director we will cover one day hmm uh star comeback it's a star comeback oh god you devil it's not oh god you devil I might make that my new go-to bad answer one versus a spirited beginning

yeah no I think that one's uh all played out so i'm gonna say my next guess is casper a spirited beginning you know we could do the oh god franchise if you want yeah let's do patreon one day yeah i want to uh no longer have a stable income let's do the oh god franchise i want to absolutely look a gift horse in the mouth. Can we do all three Oh God movies? We haven't recorded them yet, but the announcement of Croc Dundee went over okay. Yeah, yeah.

People are less flummoxed than I thought they would be. But I'm also just like, it's three. I don't know. What do we, come on. Give us the mulligan. Okay, okay, okay. So it's a director we'll probably cover one day is the director primarily a comedy director yes um and it's a big star comeback it is although he's not like on the poster because it's a high concept comedy so the concept is the real star oh oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, of course.

It's look who's talking. Look who's talking. Yeah. Look who's talking. Who's talking, Griffin? The baby. The baby is talking. You ever think about how solid of a premise that is for a movie?

I think about it all the time. It's pretty good. Ben, I think about it so often. She's talked about it too, that she just like, you know, like had a huge hit and then a big flop and then Hollywood wasn't hiring her anymore. And she was like, I need a premise that's such a slam dunk

that no one won't green light it. Amy Heckerling, to be clear. Yeah, yeah. Heckerling was just like, I dare you to not make this movie with this premise. Yeah, I mean, you can't not. And there's all this stuff about story and what's his name i don't know the guy like robert mccain is all about yeah there you go

yeah that guy but then it's like what if you could understand what baby said you're saying like throw the books out yeah abandon the formula movies should just be about shit like what if a baby dog it is it is weird like what was the thing i was looking at i forget why i went down this rabbit hole but in terms of like the line that is so thin between like the biggest comedies of the 70s 80s and 90s and movies that destroyed people's careers, right? Where you're just like, any which way but loose. That's such a flip of a coin that audiences like that, but then like, stop or my mom will shoot is just like ruinous to Sloan.

Okay. Number four at the box office. Okay. Okay. Number four at the box office. Okay. Is a comedy drama, big hit, enduring classic, I would say, sort of the prototypical chick flick. But I mean that in a good way, obviously.

Got it. It's Oh God, You Devil. No, it's either Steel Magnolias or Fried Green Tomatoes. It's Steel Magnolias. Fried Green Tomatoes is sort of a 90s. Coming back to the WPA theater. There you go. Steel Magnolias originated at the WPA theater with Margo Martindale. That's right.

Did your mom discover Ellen Green? I guess. I mean, she gave her the role. Yeah, that role. discover ellen green i guess i mean she gave her the role yeah that rule but i don't know the story about like how ellen came to them i do know i have like i i can tell you something about the casting process that i don't think my mom would live on the record like but after this okay cool okay sure um number five at the box office, before we go off mic, is an animated film.

Another film we'll probably cover one day. So it's a Bluth? It's a Bluth. I'm trying to think, because they were always, the Bluths and the Disneys were always paired in this era. Right, they're always matched against each other. I would say this movie is a flop. It's sort of his first big flop.

It's a movie that truly kind of just unsettled me as a kid and I didn't like it at all. And I would love to rewatch it. Is it Rats of NIMH? No, Secret of NIMH fucking rules. That's his first movie. This is his fourth movie. I get his timeline fucked up.

Okay, and it's not American Tail. No, that's his second movie. It goes Secret of NIMH, American Tail, Land Before Time. So hit, hit, hit, and then this. It's not Thumbelina, is it? No, that's later. Right, and it's not Rock-A-Doodle. This is sort of the turning point. No, that's next. This movie is

fucked up. It's not Troll in Central Park is later. What is this? Now you're just naming I know I know I'm trying to process a volumination that's right it's obviously it's not Titan A.E. it's not Anastasia right okay what's the one I'm not fucking

thinking of it's famous I feel like you're gonna really feel like an idiot this is uh you know this is a pretty famous one is it All Dogs Go to Heaven that's right yeah a really upsetting film yeah just there was just a clue crazy oh that's the thing is with little mermaid um people are like disney's over bluth beat him you know like he's had these three hits yeah uh and so they're like yeah fuck disney they can't get get out of this tailspin.

It's all Bluth, baby. And then Disney's like, we're going to do a beautiful musical about a fairy tale. Yeah. And Bluth's like, yeah, what if I do a movie about how dogs die? Right. It's about a fucking scummy pussy hound dog. Right. Yeah.

All Dogs Go to heaven is fucking bizarre. That's an example of a movie where I, uh, went like, how dare they with the title. Exactly. I was almost like, can we turn this off?

Like, I just, I can't handle this. Absolutely not. Which all the more reason to cover Bluth. Cause it's, that's the whole thing with Bluth where you're like, as a kid,

you're like, I love 90% of this, 10% of this. I kind of wish you could erase it from my memory. Like, I'm too freaked out. And it's the fucking Burt Reynolds crew. It's Reynolds, DeLuise, Lonnie Anderson, Charles Nelson, Riley. Yeah, and DeLuise absolutely crushes it, I will say. Yeah.

He just completely annihilates it. But then the sequel is charlie sheen and delouise reynolds doesn't come back but delouise does i believe i have seen all dogs go to heaven too yes yeah wow um yeah i mean and also we have to mention that the uh villain in all dogs go to heaven is a pit bull named car face wow i blocked that out of my memory oh boy um some other movies uh there's a movie uh called dad oh yeah that's the jack lemon ted danson and ethan hawk movie hawk right baby hawke and lemons got like really good old age makeup in it uh right and then you've got um prancer in oh sure sort of like sort of slightly

cheapo fantasy movie boom of the 80s is is dad david gary goldberg is it like it's like the one movie of someone who didn't really make movies. It is a Gary David Goldberg. Yes. The, of course, creator of Family Ties and Spin City. That's funny. Yeah. Anyway. Right.

Yeah. That's, you know, The Bear is in the top 10 crimes and misdemeanors. And a movie called Staying Together with Sean Astin and Melinda Dillon and Stalker Channing. It kind of looks like a Stand By Me kind of thing. If you say so. Okay. We're done. Little Mermaid, a film that works.

It sure does. Life Under the Sea. It's better than anything they got up there. Yeah. it sure does life under the sea it's better than anything they got up there yeah Esther do you have any final thoughts no it's just like this movie is so important to me and it remains important to me

oh and I have to acknowledge that Griffin's background this whole time has been the poster from the Little Mermaid Live, which aired on ABC. Shaggy. And featured John Stamos doing the most unhinged le poisson.

I watched this live. John Stamos was out of control, and Shaggy was off key the whole time as Sebastian. It's true. It was wild. But the cast is pretty good like i mean latifah's ursula is better yeah that's good cravello as ariel i like a lot yes but yeah um fucking uh stamos as the chef makes renee over chinois look like fucking renee falconetti from the passion of joan of arc where

you're like this is like a subtle and moving work stamos is off the chain in that thing david david what you just said is so funny i can't even process it i'm not even laughing i'm just like i feel like my head is spinning around the fact fact that you landed that, that you went from Renee to Renee. Thank you. Oh, my God. The episode's over. Esther, thank you so much for being on the show. Everyone should buy your book, A Field Guide to Internet Boyfriends.

I'm very happy that Kristen Stewart was included. I think that's the kind of outside-the-box thinking we need these days. The only way to put America back on track. She's not considered within the internet boyfriend pantheon, but she absolutely belongs to be there. It's the exact same sort of parasocial relationship we have with her.

And you're the best in the biz, and I'm glad we finally let you talk about a movie that doesn't make you angry. Thank you. Thank you. Hey. And thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe.

Thanks to Joe Bone and Pat Rounds for our artwork. Music for this show by The Great American Novel. Go to blankies.reddit.com for some real nerdy shit. And to our Shopify page, you can buy merch, comedy point coins, restock, hopefully they haven't sold out yet. And if they have sold out again,

then we certainly will be ordering more. But you can get the Talkin' the Walk 2020 shirt there. Tune in next week for Aladdin. Another movie that was successful. A hit!

Has had some degree of cultural staying power. Right. Unlike the Crocodile Dundee movies, which you can currently hear us talk about on Patreon. That's right.

And as always, I don't understand why King Triton's nipples remind David of fathers. Big nips Big Dad