Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Man Who Knew Too Little

Episode Date: December 10, 2016

Our special episode this week: a discussion of 1997’s spy comedy The Man Who Knew Too Little. But how would you picture a Boris the Butcher to look? What are Producer Ben’s favorite bits? And why does Griffin know so much about box office stats? Together they examine the different phases of Bill Murray’s career, Peter Gallagher’s eyebrows, and Griffin’s access to the fabled Murray 1-800 number.

Yo, matey, you just stabbed me with your podcast. Yo! Welcome, everyone. Good voice. Yo, matey, you just stabbed me with your podcast. Yo! Welcome, everyone. Good voice. I like the voice. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. They're usually your hosts, but today, producer Ben, that's me. Hey!

Hi, guys. I'm going to be stepping in as sort of a guest host. Third time's the charm. It's happened before. It will happen again. It's another Ben's Choice. Choice. Ben's Choice.

Now, let's see if I can get through this setup of what the show is. So, Blank Check, right? Yeah. Blank Check is a podcast where we look at directors' filmographies, right? Can I just point out, I mean, you're nailing it so far, because you got correct that it's called Blank Check and that it's a podcast. Let him talk. Keep going. Great. Okay. So, in this podcast,

we take the director's filmographies and we kind of, like, look at it, right? We take it under a microscope, we put it on a slide and we're like, wait a second, okay, this is where they started, they were cultured here, this is where they had their big break, and then this is where Hollywood was like, you can do whatever you want. Then the thing is, a lot of times those checks bounce and sometimes they do good.

Clear. Deposit. I don't know. We have to figure out because I like- Griffin has his spiel. Yeah, he's got that- This is Ben's choice. This is Ben's choice.

That's right. All right. So now that we got that out of the way, here is what we're going to be talking about today. One of my favorite movies of all time. It's a fun little romper. Wouldn't you say? Yeah, and let's put out, when we first had the idea to do a Ben's Choice, we asked him, what's your favorite movie?

And this was the first answer he gave us. He sent it almost immediately. We asked for more answers after that. We ended up going with Fletch first and then Under Siege 2, Dark Territory. But this was the first answer you offered up when we asked you if you could pick any movie what would you talk about? 100%. I love this film this is another VHS

watch it over and over again. Yeah this is a real 90s thing. This movie was maybe never released on DVD. Yeah. Probably not. It must be. But let's say the name of it. Okay you say it. The name of the film is The Man Who Knew Too Little. And this is the pod who cast Too Little.

It certainly is. Yeah. It certainly is. Yeah. Yep. What was I going to? Ben has the blank check in the Ben's Choice. Of course.

You know, usually we're looking at the blank check career of a director, but in Ben's Choice, it's Ben who has the blank check. It's the producer who has the blank check. And he wrote The Man Who Knew Too producer who has the blank check. And he wrote The Man Who Knew Too Little on the check. He deposited it, and it has cleared. It has cleared. It showed up. And here we are. Yeah. And let's just

quick, we're going to try to talk about it as little as possible. This is our first episode recorded after the election, so we are terrified. Yeah. Yeah. You might notice a sort of a deadened thud to everything I say. Right. You might hear the blankness in our eyes. Yeah. yeah. You might notice a sort of a deadened, like, thud to everything I say. You might hear the blankness in our eyes. Yeah, exactly.

The far-off stare. But we're actually, we're trying to make sure that everyone has fun times moving forward. Yeah, that's what we got to do. Fun times. We're trying to make sure everyone has fun times. That's our responsibility. We figured, you know, this will post a while after, and so we don't want to just, you know, bum a drone out with a total huge, you know, hashing through

of everything that's happened. But, you know, I think everyone who listens to the show knows how we feel about this. Yep. I mean, um... I think you, we probably, this is like post-Thanksgiving, so you've already had that awkward interaction with family members that you don't necessarily like. Now Christmas is around the corner.

That's gonna happen again, but whatever. Think of us as your family members that you don't necessarily like. Now Christmas is around the corner. That's going to happen again, but whatever. Think of us as your family members that you do like. And also, we were originally going to record this episode the day after the election. Because we were so confident, just nice, clean election. That's true. Roll straight from that into a podcast about Bill Murray's The Man Who Knew Too Little. We could not do it. And we woke up that morning and we were like, no one will ever want to listen to this.

If we record this now. So this is us a week out. So, you know, yeah. I mean, today it's more like that thing where like, yeah, you know, you get up, you eat your food, you go to work like... We're trucking along. Yeah, you know, and you can't just like admit defeat to your entire life

like as much as you shouldn't admit defeat, you know, about certain things like... But also, you know, we should just... You can't just lie in bed for four years feeling miserable as much as you shouldn't admit defeat about certain things. You can't just lie in bed for four years feeling miserable as much as you might want to. Wait, what's that? Oh, it sounds like some cool snapping. Let's start this. Yeah.

All right. So. All right. Ben's here. I love the snapping in this movie. I forgot how stylish this movie was. It starts off so jazzy. That's right.

It's a jazzy little movie. It's a jazzy little movie. The Man Who Knew Too Little, I'm going to point one thing out about it. Okay. It came out in 1997 to bad reviews and poor financial receipts. Yep. It was, I feel like, we talk about bill murray in a second but it was kind of in his real kind of bottoming out i feel like uh in terms of coolness especially but also in terms of like box office success it was sort of when before his uh

lost his rush more loss in translation bounced back as, you know, like, ooh, cool, arty actor and like fun personality again. Right. Like, ooh, mysterious. He's got a secret answering machine and no agent and shows up at a bar. Rushmore is the year after this. This is the last chapter. Like Bill Murray's a star, right? I'd say this is. this should be in some movies

i'd say that's phase two of bill murray right i'd say phase three you think this is the end of phase three yeah let me give you the phases okay phases of bill phase one is is bill murray young comedy star yes meatball 79 right so we're okay, Second City dude gets hired onto SNL. Oh, Jesus. Replacement for Chevy Chase. Yes, yes. Hold on. Who's Bill Murray?

That's what we're doing. God. No, but there's a story here that I think is very telling, okay? Okay. The sort of Rosetta Stone to Bill Murray. Oh, Jesus. Chevy Chase is the breakout star of SNL. Yes, yes, yes.

He does one season. I know. Wins the Emmy. Yeah. Leaves. Yeah. Bill Murray's introduced his replacement. People hate it.

Hate it. They don't like it. Bill Murray does these self-deprecating sketches sometimes where he's like. Well, there's one specific one, and overnight he becomes a star. Yes. He does a couple months on the show. He's bombing. He goes on Weekend Update, and he sits in the chair, and they go, here's our new cast member, Bill Murray.

And he goes, look, I know what you're wondering. Why isn't this guy funny? I know. I agree. I'm funny all the time with my friends I've been funny on stage before and then I watch the show and I go who is this guy he's not funny right and he said what we're all thinking and overnight Bill Murray fucking it hits yeah that's 77 I believe right yeah okay so he becomes now this was a thing this new face of comedy he's a hit all right so in 79 he's in meatballs which is a surprise hit yeah and and then I'm not I'm skipping some of his movies you Now, this new face of comedy. He's a hit. All right, so in 79, he's in Meatballs. Which is a surprise hit.

Yeah. And then I'm skipping some of his movies. You know, there's like Where the Buffalo Roam, but like his big movies. Hunter S. Thompson. In 80, Caddyshack. Where the Buffalo Roam is the only one in between Caddyshack and Meatballs. Yeah, yeah. So Meatballs, I think they thought was a throwaway.

Oh, here's the new guy on SNL. Ivan Reitman's first movie. It cost like a million dollars. It's a little camp comedy. It was made in Canada. And then it is a breakout hit. And they's a- Ivan Reitman's first movie. It cost like a million dollars. Silly little camp comedy. It was made in Canada. And then it is a breakout hit. And they go, oh, Bill Murray made me a movie star? Caddyshack. Huge hit.

Huge. Supporting part in that, but it shows him playing a goofier side. His character becomes quite iconic. 81. Stripes. Huge hit. Huge hit. And now he's got some juice.

Now he's like molding star vehicles. Stripes was- Now it's like, put Bill Murray on your poster. You're in good shape. Because Stripes was originally a Cheech and Chong movie. Do you know this? Ivan Reitman had been producing, was trying to get into directing and writing, and pitched Cheech and Chong in the Army.

It went pretty far, and then Cheech and Chong decided they didn't want to do it. He had already made Meatballs. Bill Murray was on a roll, and he said, Bill, who would your second guy be? And he goes, I like Harold Ramis. He's my friend. He's a writer. He was one of the best improvisers as a straight man, and he makes Harold Ramis a movie star as well.

Yeah. And Stripes, huge. You like Stripes, Benny? It's like, honestly, another favorite comedy of mine. It's so good. Stripes, a movie, my favorite line from Freaks and Geeks is when they're comparing Bill Murray movies and trying to pick which is the best one. And someone

goes, Stripes, and Sam Weir goes, but you can't tell me what happens in the second half of Stripes. Sure. Because every moment that everyone loves in Stripes happens in the first half of the movie. And if you ask someone what happens in the second half of Stripes, they go, it's like an RV, and then there's John Larroquette. I'm moving on. Stri fun 82 tootsie okay sporting role you pepper him in

sporting role but huge hit oscar winner or at least nominee i think it won no it won a couple oscars because like just laying and i think one screenplay yeah huge hit but but that's also a new shade of him absolutely it's him fitting into someone else's movie, not a Bill Murray movie. And at this point, he's left SNL. Okay. So he's striking out. Now, what does he want to do? He wants to make The Razor's Edge more than anything.

He really wants to make The Razor's Edge. The Somerset Novel. He's trying to make it. Everyone goes, you're Bill Murray. You're a comedy star. You're a goofball. Who would let you make a Razor's Edge movie? Absolutely not.

Absolutely not. He's trying to use that Tootsie Juice. His seed will find no purchase, right? Yeah. Dan Aykroyd had written Ghostbusters as Belushi and Aykroyd. Set up with Reitman. Belushi dies. And they go, fuck, what do we

do? The third guy was supposed to be Eddie Murphy. Yeah. I think Harold Ramis, they brought Harold Ramis on to rewrite the script. We're not going to do a whole Ghostbusters thing. Jesus Christ. He makes Ghostbusters kind of as like, hey, if I do this, will you let me do the Razor's Edge? That was the deal.

He says my salary for Ghostbusters, and he got paid as well, is you have to finance the Razor's Edge. Right. So does that, makes the Razor's Edge. That's kind of a bomb. No one likes it. He's like, fuck you guys.

I hate everyone. Bill Murray, phase one, over. Stops making movies. Doesn't make any movies. Well, you forgot. Ghostbusters is humongous. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

You left that off, right? People are aware. But yeah. Ghostbusters is fucking ginormous. And Bill Murray drops the mic, goes to the Sorbonne. Goes to the razor's edge. Yeah, he goes to the Sorbonne. What else does he do?

He's afraid of fame. Yeah. He doesn't like it. He kind of pulls like a Dave Chappelle, you know, sort of like that thing where it's like there's something more to like he goes out on top maybe or everyone's like what happened there's the sorbonne for three years studies philosophy yeah i mean just imagine that in present day all right if one of our biggest movie stars i don't want to jerk his dick off too much because i feel like bill murray gets jerked off i'm not i'm not saying that in a complimentary way yeah no i just saying, imagine the effect. Dave Chappelle. Dave Chappelle. Imagine if Chris Pratt tomorrow was like, ah, fuck, and he went to the Sorbonne for three years.

Or imagine James Franco started painting or writing poetry. I don't think Franco really was crubbing for Murray, actually. He was a little bit. But neither of those are the same as Bill Murray. I just think that's a bizarre thing that wouldn't happen today. Except Dave Chappelle. I mean, he didn't go to the Suburban. But it happens once in a while.

I think that would be the same if Dave Chappelle then went on to do movies and had as much success in movies as he did on TV. All right, look, this is semantic. It'd be like Producer Ben getting into fashion or something. We can't stop that, baby. Oh, it's happening. For the next four years, Bill Murray makes one appearance in film. He's in Little Shop. One of the funniest scenes in the history of movies, but it's happening. For the next four years, Bill Murray makes one appearance in film. He's in Little Shop.

One of the funniest scenes in the history of movies, but it's one scene. And then he comes back. He plays himself and she's having a baby. Is that after though? Yeah, it's 88. Your Amazon list is shit. Anyway, anyway, anyway, anyway. Between 1984 and 1988, the only film

appearance he makes is Little Shop of Horrors. And then he comes back in 1988, Much Ballyhooed, Returned Scrooge. Scrooge is a hit. Not a particularly well-received film, but a hit. It was kind of seen as a little bit of a disappointment. This is phase two Murray. Right. This is phase two.

Which is like, I'm Bill Murray and I'm back doing Bill Murray. Yes. Scrooge. Ghostbusters 2. Yeah. Now both of these movies are humongous hype. Everyone's so excited. Murray. Yes. Scrooged. Ghostbusters 2. Yeah. Now both of these movies are humongous hype. Everyone's so excited.

Murray's back. He's working with heavy hitters. And both of them do well but not as well as Ghostbusters. And both of them are kind of

like middling reception. Or like it's funny in parts. It's kind of okay. It feels like it's missing the point. We're happy to have him back. Yeah.

It feels like maybe the magic's gone, right? He directs his first film, Quick Change. Quick Change, which I've never seen. I've never seen. A lot of people love. But it certainly doesn't make a big impact. Was not a hit. Makes What About Bob,

which I think is like a pretty fun movie. Yes, and was well regarded and famously- Not the best, but you know. Steven Spielberg, our next subject on Blank Check thought that Bill Murray's performance in What About Bob was transcendent and spent one million dollars of his own money launching a best actor campaign for Bill Murray.

I swear to God this is true because the studio was like it's a Bill Murray comedy. We're not going to push him for best actor. He just threw down his marker on it. Now around this time a lot of big dramatic roles almost get offered to Bill Murray. Penny Marshall

wanted Bill Murray to play the De Niro part in Awakenings. You know? Jonathan Demme wanted Bill Murray to play the Tom Hanks part in Philadelphia.

Robert Zemeckis wanted Bill Murray to play Forrest Gump. Not okay. These are all weird choices, right? Sure, but you know, some of them might have panned out. But there was this shift. All these big, heavy-hitter directors were trying to put him in their dramas, or drama

Ds at least. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it wasn't really happening. But there was already this sort of growing tide of maybe Bill Murray has more guts as an actor. Yeah, sure. Okay. And then he makes Groundhog.

But one famous thing, or less maybe well-known thing, is that he and Richard Dreyfuss, the two stars of What About Bob, hated each other and fought the whole time. And this is the first time I think people are starting to hear, like, Bill Murray, bit of a brittle guy. A little brittle. And very much does his own thing. And now he, like, fires his agent. He fires his manager.

Well, Groundhog Day. He only has a lawyer. Well, I know. But this is all happening in this time period. I'm just finishing my phase two. My phase two ends with Groundhog Day, in only has a lawyer. Well, I know, but this is all happening this time. I'm just finishing my phase two. My phase two ends with Groundhog Day, in my opinion. This is my argument. You can contribute.

Well, phase two is short. I agree with you. Phase two is mostly sucked up by the Serban. Well, yeah, but phase two, but it's that sort of like that pocket of Bill Murray starring roles that are mostly good and or like kind of Ghostbusters 2 and Scrooge, like maybe not as good as he wanted to be, but at least like, you know, there's some there there. roles that are mostly good and or like kind of Ghostbusters 2 and Scrooge like maybe not as good as you want it to be but at least like you know there's there's some there's some there there.

And he hasn't made that many movies but this is already now we're in our third decade of Bill Murray being a star. You know he's been big in the 70s the 80s and 90s so he's weathered cultural changes which I always think is interesting. And you end on this great high with Groundhog Day. Right. Which is a perfect film. A masterpiece.

And he and Harold Ramis. Him and Ramis, you know, collaborating to make, I think, each one's best thing, arguably. And by all accounts, they had very different ideas of what the movie should have been. They fought the whole time. The movie ended up meeting somewhere in the middle, which worked to our advantage. It did. And then they never spoke again until Ramos died. They reconnected in the last two years of his life.

No, I heard it was way, way, way, way, way, like last few months of Ramos' life. Okay. Yeah. Towards the end. Really, really near the end when they went to Murray and they said, like, this is, like, now is the time, basically. There's the New Yorker piece about Ramos doing the ice harvest

where he keeps on saying that he wants to hire Bill Murray. That piece is such a... That piece is incredible. I can't recommend it enough. Really, you guys should check it out. It's such a great piece because one, Ramis just seems like a terrific guy. And Ice Harvest is a very underrated movie. Yeah, I've never seen the Ice Harvest. I like it a lot.

I think it's really strong. I'd love to do a Ramis. I mean, you know, there's some duds in there, but you but you know yeah but that's what makes them interesting but the one other thing that happens in phase two that's kind of interesting because it sort of

pretends what will happen later is Mad Dog and Glory yeah John McNaughton and Henry Portrait of Circular good movie really good Murray performance De Niro's in

that one right and Uma Thurman and Murray's playing the heavy they they sort of flip expectations on Murray and De Niro, and Murray plays it pretty straight. Murray's role is he's a mobster who always wanted to be a comedian,

and he's painfully unfunny. Sure. Okay. All right. De Niro's a lighthearted crime scene photographer. Cool. And Murray's got a great scene where he goes to do an open mic for the first time, and he just can't land a joke.

Richard Price wrote that. Interesting. It's a good movie. But that's sort of the start of Bill Murray dipping his toes into being more of a company player in later dramas. So my argument for Phase 3 is it's a mix of some fun little supporting roles like Ed Wood, like Kingpin. Right? Yes. That's good stuff. Wild Things kind of you know he's all right in that yeah with i mean the the most obvious one that i was just you know larger than life which is the epitome of a road trip with an elephant yeah and it's just like what

the fuck are you doing like you're bill murray you could do any movie you wanted why are you doing this how did this is this some one of those things where it's like someone convinced you your kid would enjoy it if you made this movie and and another part of phase three is the man who knew too little which is sort of like comes out everyone shrugs yeah gets forgotten pretty quickly until benny uncovers it in the sands pulls it out but um and then phase four or whatever is like critically acclaimed bill murray right it's like yes well okay so just a couple more things more right a couple more things to throw out here okay uh one is i looked up other films that he had turned down from that period of time kindergarten cop we'd previously mentioned was designed to be a bill murray vehicle

rain man they wanted him to play uh the dustin role. Okay. I mean, there was like that kind of, you know. He was the topless guy who framed Roger Rabbit. Sure. He was not first choice but he was certainly someone high up on the list. I'm sure he could have gotten that role. Philadelphia, I was wrong. They wanted him to play the Denzel Washington part. Oh, that makes sense.

You know what though? Denzel's better. Yeah. People vs. Larry Flint to play Larry Flint. Sure. Which obviously makes a lot of sense. and then famously uh he never found out that they had offered him buzz lightyear and toy story because as i said doesn't have an agent doesn't have a manager as a lawyer and he has a 1-800 number you can call up and leave a message the legend but that's a key to this okay because what he really doubles down on is pre-existing relationships. Yeah. So, like, Ramis was his guy.

Reitman was one of his guys. He never really breaks off with Reitman, but they stop working together. But he loses these people. He does. But he latches on to a new guy named Howard Franklin. Sure. Who made... Writes and directs Larger Than Life.

Is one of the writers on this. Co-directed Quick Change with him. And then his other guy is Mitch Glazer, who is a comedy writer and starts writing on all of his movies. Rodan Scrooge with Michael O'Donoghue, one of the greatest comedy writers of all time. SNL legend.

And starts, Glazer and Franklin become the guys that he hitches rag into. And they're not at the same level as Ramis and Reitman. We should also mention he's in Space Jam in that period in that period which i think is one of his five best performances and i've gotten lambasted for this online yeah you're wrong having just re-watched that movie he's unbelievable in that movie i think he's good i think that movie's the epitome of what

he is capable of i i mean the thing is comedically on a pure comedic level i think he's funny i just i honestly i'm gonna put this out there. Just put it out into the world. This film's not a good movie. I really don't like that movie. No, it's a shitty movie. Actually, I don't even like it. Like, on any level.

I'm fascinated by it because it's the most crassly designed movie of all time. Yeah, that's a good call. You know? Like, I've always been kind of fascinated by how reverse engineered the movie is. That Mitch Glazer guy wrote fucking Rock the bar that's that's what i'm saying he just keeps coming back to these and that movie passion play he starts linking up with the wrong guys yeah but you know loyalty guy because mitch glazer and howard franklin can get his number they know how to reach but also he'll be in any wes anderson project like jim jarmusch can you know get him and

put him in a few things. This is the great catch-22 of Bill Murray. If he's aligned with someone good, he's going to keep on doing good work with them. If he's aligned with someone bad, he's going to keep on doing bad work with them. And who made St. Vincent? That's a new guy, Ted Melfi. And that's the guy who made Hidden Figures.

Correct. I've heard it's good. I don't like St. Vincent. But he was a guy who apparently just gave a very impassioned voicemail on the 1-800 number, got through to him. As with the guy

who did that movie Get Low, which I thought was underwhelming, but Murray was solid in. Yeah. That movie's well acted. Right. But yeah,

at this point, post-Groundhog Day... Yeah, we're really nestled in that, like the real lost, the wilderness years for Bill Murray, where he doesn't have as much of an identity. His leading roles suck, by and large.

He's lost his cool. Yes, he's definitely lost his cool. Right? He feels like a third-tier comedy star. And Ben, like, please rejoin us, but, I mean, in The Man Who Knew Too Little, like, the joke is that he's not cool. Right. Which I feel like is not usually the Bill Murray way.

Bill Murray's defining characteristic used to be that he's the smartest guy in the room. Absolutely. And he doesn't want the people who are dumber to him to even understand that he's smarter than them. He wants. And this is that. It's all under his breath. It's the snarky over the shoulder. The whole point is that he's not smart.

He's so not smart that he doesn't even get what's happening around him. And it's funny. This is Bill Murray as doofus before a year later, Wes Anderson digs him up and goes, I'm going to mind the pathos in Bill Murray and make it clear that the smartest guy in the room thing was a defensive wall against how paint he is. And that becomes the forefront.

They dig that up and make that the text rather than the subtext. Now, that's all. I agree with you. Now, I want to ask Ben Hosley a question. This is his episode, I suppose. Yeah. Ben. Hey. Tell us about your love and experiences with this film. Yeah, I gotta hear this

because, you know, I'm a huge Bill Murray fan. Me too. Me too. I love him. I was raised in a household, and we've talked in the past about... Me too, yeah. About, you know... Your parents had their guys, and they're not guys. Bill Murray was the guy. They liked Bill Murray, they didn't like Jim Carrey or whatever.

That's the exact example. Bill Murray, we could see any Bill Murray picture. I saw this on my parents' opening weekend and I remember my dad reading the reviews and saying, the Bill Murray movie's not supposed to be pretty good, but it's Bill. I mean, we gotta go see it. You know, it was like, it's gonna be a Murray movie, at the very least. It's better than someone else's worst movies, inherently,

because Bill Murray is a more interesting comedic leading man than most sure uh ben tell me about how how you first saw this movie i um was introduced to it by uh my my good friend's older brother and really he didn't sell this to me as a bill murray movie he was like, this is such a really well-written and just great, funny gag. You guys are going to love this. Were you a teenager? I was probably just starting high school. I was really into comedy, a huge comedy nerd, but at the same time I very much still in my mind, I know Bill Murray's in this

movie. He's great in in it but this is not a Bill Murray movie no it's just weird almost to think about his career and then think about this film and the kind of performances he's given he's good he's very good in the film I think he's very funny but you're right it's not like a quote-unquote like Bill Murray movie in the way that some of these movies we've been talking about are well Well, and when you talk about like, you know, him giving good supporting performances, this kind of feels like a Bill Murray supporting performance stretched out to the lead. And I don't mean that in a good or bad way, but most Bill Murray vehicles from his peak, there was definitely a sense of authorship to the movie. Bill Murray was the co-author,

not just because he's known for improvising so much of his dialogue, but because Bill Murray, at the height of his comedic power, kind of had this Bugs Bunny aspect to him, where it felt like he was always stepping one inch in front of the movie and kind of winking to the audience and being like, that's the thing that elevates Ghostbusters.

That's what makes it work, is here's this high stakes, insane premise. Especially, and you've got Aykroyd and Ramis around him being like ah. Who believes all this shit and has thought about it so much and the world building and the plot. And Bill Murray's kind of going like ain't I a stinker. I mean what the fuck is this stuff. He's winking to the audience. Which is in Ghostbusters it is such a tight line because it's like he's still a Ghostbuster.

Yeah. And he still like gets in trouble for being a Ghostbuster and like believes in the Ghostbusting. But at the same time he's like eh you guys you're crossing the streams I don't know but that's the magic trick I'm just trying to get laid over here

that's the magic trick that makes him a legendary movie star in my opinion is to be able to do that and not destroy the reality of the movie you're in

to be able to sort of comment on it but maintain the propulsiveness and the stakes and the emotional resonance I think it's different because they don't ask her to do anything character-wise like

that in the movie. But I did feel a similar sort of vibe to McKinnon in the new Ghostbusters, where it feels like she's commenting on the movie a little bit from outside of it. Sure. The difference is that she's not the hero character. Yeah, she's not the lead. She's very much the supporting weirdo. But it feels like she's able to deconstruct a little bit. Okay. She's fucking amazing. We're not's very much the supporting weirdo. But it feels like

she's able to deconstruct a little bit. She's fucking amazing. We're not talking about that movie. I'm not going to talk about that yet. But now, in The Man Who Knew Too Little, Bill Murray's just in the movie.

Yeah. He's in the movie. He's a part of the movie in the same way. The movie's happening to him. Right, in the same way that Little Shop of Horrors or Kingpin,

where it's like, he's part of the plot. Right. You know? Sure. He's showing up. He's acting. He's doing his role.

He's playing it well. But he's just part of the plot. Right. You know? Sure. He's showing up. He's acting. He's doing his role. He's playing it well. But he's just part of the tapestry now. Another thought I had, too, is I, around this time, recall being obsessed with very jokey movies like Airplane and Naked Gun. Sure, movies that really throw the jokes at you. Right. And I still have such a soft spot for those kinds of films that are like just like all about breaking the momentum of the plot or the story to just be like, here's a fun little like aside. I love that kind of stuff.

But I would say this isn't that kind of a movie. Well, I think it falls into that realm in my mind because I feel like it's sort of a satire or like a parody of a genre. But it has like a real plot. It's really plotty. This is a very of a genre. But it has like a real plot. It's really plotty. This is a very plotty comedy. I mean, like the whole point of it is like there's this sort of story, quote unquote, that he's sure that he's in.

And it's like, yeah, every new situation sort of, it all has to sort of magically link into both like his fantasy and the reality. My right earphone just went out. Mine too. Okay, there we go. Here's a question. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Did this film not come out the same year as David Fincher's The Game? You know what? That's a great question. Right? I was really proud that I thought of that. That's with Sean Penn, right? And Michael Douglas is the one doing the game. Yeah.

Sean Penn is the Peter Gallagher. They're both the same setup, which is a brother. This comes out two months after the Fincher flick. Yeah, brother is like, hey, take a load off. There's this interactive theater thing that's hip. Why don't you do it? Except in the game, Sean Penn is actually, I think, trying to give Michael Douglas a good time,

whereas in this, Peter Gallagher is just trying to get Bill Murray out of the house for a few hours. Right, and the difference is in the game, give Michael Douglas a good time, whereas in this, Peter Gallagher's just trying to get Bill Murray out of the house for a few hours. Right, and the difference is, in the game, Michael Douglas starts suspecting that it might not be a game anymore. And in The Man Who Knew Too Little, Bill Murray always believes he's still part of the theater. Right, absolutely. Like, the heightening is that the more absurd of these situations unfolds, it's like, how could you not realize you're not in some weird interactive

theater piece right right but it's an interesting parallel these two movies come out at the same time yeah i guess the point where that sort of has some sort of cultural purchase is the idea of these living theater shows amazing because i remember my mom my mom and dad when we went to go see this my little brother james he went to go see the man who took i must have been eight sure and we saw it opening weekend and i said so what's the plot of this? I didn't even have to know. It's a Bill Murray movie. I'm excited. Yeah sure. Right? And um they said you know it's like a guy who's in a living

theater piece and he thinks he thinks he's in a living theater piece but he gets caught up in the thing. And I went what's a living theater piece? Yeah which is a fair question. They tried to explain it to me and I was just like okay I guess I'll take it. The movie tries to explain it to you. I'll take it from you that this is a real thing, but I feel like it was a thing that had a very limited moment that they didn't really catch on. Yeah, it was probably on Vogue for six months, and so two movies, one hyperdramatic and one extremely comic were made about it.

This is based on a novel, though. Yeah, which is really interesting, but then Howard Franklin because this is my sense of what happened. The novelist adapts his own novel, right? He's one of two credit screenwriters and then the other credit writer is Howard Franklin. I'm guessing he adapted his own novel then someone had the idea, oh, what if we made this into a Bill Murray vehicle and Howard Franklin

made it more comedic. Right. More gaggy. You know? Yeah. I also think it is interesting. I forgot the thing i was gonna say okay um so i'll get back to it you saw this in theaters i did did you enjoy it i did i remember enjoying it i remember knowing it was like second tier murray had you seen it have you seen it again since you watch it for this podcast no this was the first time watching and here's what's really interesting i had misremembered it a lot okay because i had remembered an entire subplot that didn't exist

okay i thought the real spencer when he shows up gets sucked into it and spends the whole movie on a parallel narrative going with the theater people which might have been funny except i think the play is short i don't think it's like yeah although it's supposedly three and a half hours but it seems like there's not a lot to it yeah i don't know i don't i don't know i don't think it's like, although it's supposedly three and a half hours. But it seems like there's not a lot to it. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. But that would be kind of cool.

Ben. Hey, guys. How many times have you watched this shit? Oh, fuck. A fucking million times. Okay. I've fallen asleep to this a million times. Me and my friends would just toss around all toss around, like, the, you know, all the, like, dumb little quotable lines, like, obsessively.

I saw this film once before. I was in Sag Harbor where my elementary school friend had a country home. Humblebrag. I guess so. And we were hanging out there. And we went to the video rental store to rent a video because we were like 10 years old. I don't know. And the clerk who was in retrospect was obviously like a huge Bill Murray fan.

In retrospect was obviously Ben Hosley. Probably. Probably. Was like, oh, you know, it's great. The man who knew too little. You should rent this. And we were like, okay. And like I assume it's must.

I think it's rated like PG-13 or whatever. So like it was, you know, acceptable for us to rent this movie. Sure. We watch it. And I remember I thought like, Oh, that was okay. And my friend was like, that was terrible. And he had a whole thing about the clerk and he's like, man, that clerk recommended larger than life last week.

Like he's just into Bill Murray. Like this sucks. So he was really mad about it. I remember. I hadn't seen it again since. I remember the other point I was going to make that I forgot. What were you going to say? Sorry. Well, I also, I lived in Britain at this sucks. So he was really mad about it. I hadn't seen it again since. Remember the other point I was going to make that I forgot? What were you going to say? Sorry.

Well, I also, I lived in Britain at this point, and this movie has a lot of British actors in it who I knew well from their British, especially David Thompson and Richard Wilson. That was going to be my question, because it feels like a lot of unknown actors here who I assume did a lot of TV and stage in England. And Molina at the time. He's mostly a British actor right now. But I'll talk about both of them, but Richard Wilson, who plays, I guess, the chief spy guy, the old man who's bald. And then David Thompson, who's one of the butcher's sidekicks, and he has this kind of flat-toppy, he's sort of stocky.

Both those guys were like, they're comedy legends in Britain. So I was like, huh. They're like a team. They are, yeah. I remember the other point I was gonna make was the other interesting thing about this movie is that they hired John Emile to direct it

who had done no comedies up until this and did no comedies after he had done The Singing Detective which is not a comedy but is sort of on TV

yes which is sort of like an arch spy movie so maybe that's what they were thinking the famous British miniseries The Singing Detective not the

Robert Downey Jr. starring remake. He did a radio romantic thriller called Tune In Tomorrow with Keanu Reeves and Barbara Hershey, America's Sweethearts. Man, I love Keanu Reeves and I have never heard of that movie. Me neither. But like, yeah, you know, Singing Detective is the big thing that puts him on the map. He was mostly a TV director before that. Then Queen of Hearts, Summersbee, Copycat. Yeah, Summersbee and Copycat are both like big mainstream Hollywood movies

that don't go anywhere. You know, like there's a world in which Summersbee was one of the Oscar winners of 1993 or whatever. And instead it's like, oh, some movie with Richard Gere that nobody remembers. And then the year after Man Who Knew Too Little, he does Entrapment, which is a big hit. Yeah, a moderate hit. I saw that in theaters.

I remember that movie was kind of popping. John Connery was okay. Then he does The Core, which was a big flop. Yeah, a moderate hit. I saw that in theaters. I remember that movie was kind of popping. Sean Connery. It was okay. Then he does The Core, which was a big flop. Yeah, bad movie. Interesting cast. Bad movie. Cost a lot of money.

And then he pretty much makes TV after that. The only other narrative feature I see, he makes the creation of the Darwin movie, which was the Jennifer Connelly, Paul Bettany. And that movie didn't go anywhere either. So Man Who Knew Too Little is a real anomaly on his filmography. It's an odd one, but, I mean, that's maybe why this movie

almost plays like a straight drama at points. It's, you know, it's a... I think that was the idea. It's like a violent sort of spy movie, but funny. It's a serious director to make the milieu feel grounded, but then it also feels like he's trying to play...

I mean, performance-wise, it's very broad. But then visually, it doesn't look like a comedy. It's got a very weird, like it looks like a 60s spy drama. Because it's set in a London that doesn't pop. It's kind of set in a pre-cool Britannia London, so it's like

rainy, it's nighttime, it's a little grey. It's mostly sound stages. All the interiors feel like sound stages that are a little gray. It's mostly sound stages. All the interiors feel like sound stages that are pretty stylized. It doesn't look realistic. Sure. It's heightened. Yeah, it's heightened.

But dark. Dark, and the theater for new people or whatever it's called, that's kind of gross. Yeah. You know, like the scenario they have, which is like a sort of abusive boyfriend, and you have to protect the girl. But then within that, you have not just Bill Murray being goofy, but the other characters are goofy too. I mean, even the dude, who is it, the minister who keeps on

on the other end of the phone, like negotiating with him. Yeah, that's who I'm talking about. Richard Wilson, the bald guy. Yeah, and he's playing it pretty much to the rafters. I'll talk about him in a second. He's a ham sandwich. But I'm just saying,

there's a very interesting combination of tones in this movie. This, to me, plays out, especially with the supporting cast. I was even thinking, Bill the Butcher looks exactly like I had imagined him to look like. Wait, he's not called Bill the Butcher, is he? Boris the Butcher. Boris the Butcher, excuse me.

Bill the Butcher's from... Oh, yeah. Can we dive further into that statement? Boris the Butcher looks exactly how you imagined Boris the Butcher. Boris the Butcher. Bill the Butcher is from. Oh, yeah. Can we dive further into that statement? Boris the Butcher looks exactly how you imagine Boris the Butcher to look. Based on what prior to you seeing Boris the Butcher? Because when someone says, hey, this is my friend Boris, he's a butcher. And I go, oh, hey, yeah. That's what he would look like.

Okay. What? Can I quickly quote one of my favorite things my sister ever said? Sure. Your sister comes up almost every week these days. She's one of my favorite things my sister ever said? Sure. Your sister comes up almost every week these days. Well, she's one of my best friends. I know. She was like-

Wait, is she part of the- No, no, not the two friends. That's you two. No, no, no. We're the two friends. Hashtag the two friends. Come on, Ben. Someone tweeted us a bar in Florida that was called the two friends.

Oh, cool. Like a napkin from there. I think I missed that. Okay, what did your sister say? Anyway, I got home from school and my sister was sitting there at the table. She was drawing with crayons. I said, hey, Rom, how was school today? And she said, it was good. You know, we went to the aquarium. You know

how you always imagine what sea lions would look like? And I said, yeah, I guess. And she went, that's exactly what would look like? And I said, yeah, I guess. And she went, that's exactly what they look like. That's pretty cute. I just still think that's one of the funniest things I've ever heard. That's great kid wisdom.

You know how you always imagine what sea lions would look like? That's exactly what they look like. She was so excited. That's great. The wisdom of children, that's what we need right now. We've got to shrink my sister back down to a four-year-old. We got to do it. I mean, I honestly, I will say that the performances are great.

I don't know if I'm paying attention to that as much as just how the story unfolds. Because I think the story and the writing is so just tight and on point and funny. But you also, you kind of like noir. You've talked about this a lot. I do. I love detective stuff. You like that milieu. You like that vibe. It's kind of a fun little,'ve talked about this a lot. I do. I love detective stuff. You like that milieu. You like that vibe.

It's kind of a fun little, it's fun thinking about how this movie works. You know, it is fun watching its little cogs like click together. So you've got, you know, he goes to the theater of the thing and the improv, the live improv thing that he's supposed to be part of and this like dead drop that a spy is part of are both happening at the same payphone and and that's how this mix-up happens. Bill Murray gets diverted onto the... The Russian nest and all that stuff. I mean, I kept on thinking, like,

I guess in my head I had rewritten it to have the parallel narrative with the criminal now getting into the theater piece. I had always remembered the thing where the criminal, or the spy, whoever it is with the gun... The real Spencer, yeah. ...is confronted with the fake improv setup, and it is with the gun the real is confronted with the fake uh improv

setup yeah and then he shoots the guy i've always remembered that because it's so cold-blooded right it's funny but it's dark like pretty dark and i remember when i was 11 being like whoa yeah see i just remember that plot line going on for a long time which i think if the movie pulled off that i'd be like fucking standing oh like if you, the machinations to make both of those short movie PS, 90 minute movie. Um, but, uh,

it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's an interesting picture. Yeah. So I think you guys are sort of like even getting into the plot. So let's just like,

let's just take us on our tour. Let's just get us to where you mentioned the payphone. So, uh, it starts off and you see, uh, the setup of there's a bomb being planted in this Russian nesting doll.

With a little animated Pink Panther-y kind of jazzy cartoon. Oh yeah. Well I was doing the snaps before. Right. Yeah. The snaps. Okay. And then we meet Wallace Ritchie at the airport and he's Bill Murray and he's a silly silly man. I like the airport scene a lot where he has the drawn out

conversation with the passport guy. How long are you going to be staying in England? He goes, that's a good question. I think that's some good Bill Murray shit. It's just bits for days, this movie. It's so good. Ben, you're a weird guy. I am.

Ben, let me tell you something about yourself. What's up? You're a weird guy. Come on. Ben? Yeah? You're weird, though. Thank you.

Keep on trucking. So we truck on to, then we have the brother, Richie, at home. Peter Gallagher. He's a businessman. Best performance in the movie? I think he's so good in this movie. I think Peter Gallagher's a hysterically funny guy. He's great.

He's such a good straight man in this. He's one of those guys who has such a straight appearance and sort of voice and tone but most of his career is doing comedies and upending that. There's something a little off about him. Those pussy willows. Those big Gallagher pussy willows over his eyes. Those big eyebrows. When they start wiggling.

When those pussy willows start wiggling. He's the best. Obviously Gallagher's a big Broadway star who transferred over to Hollywood just fine but never is like a star. Because he was a leading man on Broadway. Absolutely. Pal Joey. Guys and Dolls. But the thing is, when you put him in pictures, he's often kind of a parody of a leading man. Exactly. Like in The Player or in, what's another?

Plays a guy who's too slick. He's the one who needs to learn his lesson. He often plays the slick guy. Right. But he never plays, he doesn't play straight leading men.

There's Summer Loving which was his big romantic whatever. Yeah, he did good work with Altman. Mr. Deeds, he's like the fucking stiff upper lip guy

who's trying to wrestle the money out of you. He plays a fair amount of villains. He's a good villain. Oh, American Beauty, of course. Oh, he's He plays a fair amount of villains. He's a good villain. Oh, American Beauty, of course. Oh, he's great in. So good. The King. He's the King.

The King. But then, of course, he makes the OC and transfers into sort of more like legendary dad territory. But also his role in the OC is very much like, everyone's like, God, we're all rich and crazy. And then he's just like, these guys are bullshit. It's good. It's aff crazy, and then he's just like, these guys are full of shit.

He's good at deflating. And he also, he's doing killer dad work on New Girl these days. He plays Schmidt's dad. It's an interesting, because that's flawed dad, too. You know, real flawed dad. He's playing a really good, broken, sad kind of guy. He's good.

He's a good actor. Okay, Wallace Ritchie, cut to him, Ben. Well, we see the brother, Ritchie. Puts the rich in Ritchie, this guy. And then, you know, just kind of doing work for the story purpose. They do then the newscast of the Theater of Life, which is setting up essentially that there's this theater company

where for three and a half hours you can be involved in this immersive theater sort of production where you're like not on a stage, but going to actual locations on the streets and in apartments and whatnot. And it's that thing I love where the local news reports on interesting trends in underground theater. Yeah. I mean, you see that all the time. All the time. Whenever I turn on ABC7 Eyewitness News, they're always talking about the new shows at La Mama.

Oh, boy. Okay. Well, so Wallace then arrives at his brother's home he surprised it's bill murray's character's birthday yes just an odd move to show up for your own birthday weirdly this is the biggest plot stretch in a movie that has to jump a lot of narrative poops and then he's like really pissed or not pissed but like bummed that peter gallagher doesn't want to hang out because peter gallagher's got this like big business deal to land. The sweaty justification is Peter Gallagher sent his brother money for his birthday, which is clearly a condescending move of I don't know if you're doing that.

Well, I'm going to give you money because I need some help. Bill Murray chooses to take that money and spend it to go visit his brother in London unannounced. Apparently gets on a flight right away the second the money arrives. Because you have to imagine if he sent it for his birthday, it either arrived that morning or maybe a night early. I guess he just goes to Des Moines airport and is like, hey, next flight to London. Got the envelope, immediately held a cab, went to London, right?

I'm making this sort of bemused expression and no one can see it. For the listeners at home, David looks very bemused. So bemused. I'm non this sort of like bemused expression and no one can see it. But yeah, go on. For the listeners at home, David looks very bemused. So bemused. I'm nonplussed. Carry on. Those famous Sims pussy willows are furrowed. Shows up at the doorstep and Peter Gallagher is like, first of all, you don't even call. Second of all, you picked arguably the biggest night of my life.

Terrible. I'm hosting all these Germans. Forgetting a classic bit, which is. This is my favorite bit in the entire movie. Are we talking about when he picks up the maid and he starts rocking her and he goes, oh, I thought you were going to get married to this stuffy, stuck up British woman. And then she comes out. He was talking Consuela.

Yeah. My favorite bit in the entire movie is he shows up. Peter Gallagher plays the scene very well. He's very excited to see his brother. He is happy to see him. And then the sister, his wife reminds him that he's got the Germans coming over.

He's got this big presentation. And a chancellor. And he very gently says, you know, I don't think I'll invite him over for the dinner. She goes, look, I don't think Wally's really the kind of guy. Sure. He's a fun guy. You need someone with a sense of humor.

Like, a lot of movies like this, it'd be like, my brother's an idiot. And he's just kind of going like, look, Wally's a specific taste. Right. And I don't know if I can drop him into this environment. Right. And she goes, well, you'll have things to talk about. Don't you work in the film industry? And this is the bit I remember. I lost it at this in the movie he works at a blockbuster in des moines iowa and the family joke is that he works

in the movie industry right which keeps on coming up uh i just thought that was such a funny i also like that they're like well you know it's like a it's like a joke you know it's like a funny joke but but the sister clearly he's never talked about the brother because the brother's kind of a black sheep a black sheep who he loves yeah now that i'm the brother because the brother's kind of a black sheep. A black sheep who he loves. Yeah. Now that I'm thinking about this, though, this is kind of a film about the traditional British concept that Americans don't understand irony. Yes. Reverse. This is like a movie where he goes to Britain and nobody gets his jokes.

Everyone just takes him seriously. Yeah. Because isn't that kind of the point of the movie is like no matter what Bill Murray does everyone from like other spies to the British intelligence agencies to terrorists like they all just take him totally seriously as does his

sister-in-law here you know she's like you're in the film industry yeah I'm with Blockbuster like even just the way he says it too oh god it makes me laugh. It's a movie about confidence, too, which is interesting. I mean, they kind of, they tell don't show this, and it doesn't end up really being an emotional arc to the movie.

But Peter Gallagher sets up that, like, he always wanted to be an actor. He got the lead role in the play, and he froze up and he forgot all his lines. This guy's now working at a Blockbuster. You get the sense that he loves movies he loves acting he loves all this stuff but kind of gave up on him being able to ever do any of it and um the fact that he has a situation without an audience for the first time gives him the confidence to feel like he can live out the type of life he always wanted to live. Right. And even though he's constantly admitting to everyone he comes into contact with, like, this is a play, I'm just playing the part, like saying all the stuff. Yeah, he's all the time being like, hey, can I break character for a second?

And everyone just sort of ignores it. And he's being vulnerable. It's not like he's playing macho stud the whole time. But the fact that he's so strong in his convictions, which in context to them looks like a fearlessness and a certain guile yeah makes everyone open the doors and just go i mean let him do what he wants i can't i don't know how to fight with this guy yeah you know not that's sort of a funny guy not to trump it too much but it's like how do you fight with a guy who's playing a different game than everyone else you

know you can't you can't fight you're playing chess he's playing checkers that's a good way to put it you're on the same board he's playing checkers That's a good way to put it You're playing chess, he's playing checkers You know, but that's the thing He never seems confident in the movie He's playing one dimensional chess You're right It's interesting It's funny too

Okay, so the brother remembers the newscast They're looking for a play for him to go see The big thing is, oh that's three and a half hours Yes, they're like perfect, he'll be out of the house for a long time Yeah Boom, you jumped to that phone booth Hells yeah The big thing is, oh, that's three and a half hours. Yes, they're like, perfect. He'll be out of the house for a long time. Yeah. Boom, you jumped to that phone booth. Hells yeah. All right.

Talked about the phone booth. They set up, you know. Remember to flush. Remember to flush. Always remember to flush. Here's the address. Your name's Spencer. Right, his name's Spencer.

And then they set up also that later on, that Brother Richie and Wallace will have two Cubans, two cigars. Wallace. Ambassadors. Wallace, by the way, is Bill Murray's name. Yeah. And the brother is James Richie. Yes, the Richie brother.

This is a character detail that makes it clear that fucking Peter Gallagher isn't just the shirt in this movie, you know? Sure. He loves his brother. He hates that he's not able to spend the birthday with the brother. And he's like, you gotta let me do this,

but I promise at the end of the night Before midnight I like that he points that out He's like It's gotta be He's like at midnight Before midnight To embarrass him

It's my birthday Right 11.59 at the latest Come on And of course We should say Yeah there's a Two brothers smoking cigars

Undercurrent to the film Is Peter Gallagher's Little arc of like Realizing like I don't have fun anymore And you know what My job's really stifling me And you know that

He's got the emotional arc in the movie. Yeah, it's true because Bill Murray basically is unchanged. Just goes through the whole thing. Yeah. He's like Mr. Magoo just walking around the buildings and the things. Bill Murray gets $3 million and a girlfriend from this movie. But his personality and outlook are not changed. It's the thing where Mr. Magoo would walk through the construction site and you think he's about to walk off the end of the building and then a steel beam comes up and lands just at the right time.

Right. It's like he's never changing. It's the world is somehow shifting around him. It's a good movie star movie. It is. It's interesting because it's so out of place with the persona he had established at that point. But it is very much a movie star movie. So then the plot happens.

Correct. It's too much plot for us to explain everything. No, then the plot happens. Correct. It's too much plot for us to explain everything. No, Ben is ready. It's too much plot for us to explain, not too much for Ben to explain. That's true. Okay, so we're gonna go right to the mugger scene, okay? Because he's going to the apartment to start playing out this living theater

thing. And he's on the streets, these two guys approach him, they give me your money, right? First screen appearance of Eddie Marzen, the great eddie marzen playing thug number one and so at first he's scared and then he laughs in their face and so thus kind of setting the tone of the movie of where bill murray doesn't realize that these real things that are happening around him are not just some fucking play yep and it's so fucking funny just to see him like play out these scenes. Like my favorite thing is where he does two versions of sort of like his monologue before giving his wallet away. Yeah.

It's just so funny. Just got a couple of kids. Just a couple of kids. And he also gets really into like, you know, he's going to put his sunglasses on before he enters a room because he's got this idea of who the character is. Right. Right. Other kind of just like, we're just going to jump ahead like, then

he gets to the apartment and this is where we sort of meet the girl of the movie, the female. The femme fatale. The femme fatale. Yeah, who is played by Joanne Whaley? Wally? Wally? Who is she Whaley. Who's she? Does she do other stuff? You know, she's a British actress. Yeah. She's most famous

for being married to Val Kilmer for eight years. Oh, that's where I know her name. Interesting. Because they made Willow together. Interesting. What else has she been? You know, she's kind of a British TV actress more than anything else, but for a while she was called Joanne Wally Kilmer.

And this is actually the first movie post-Kilmer. Interesting. I think she's super great in this movie. I definitely have a little bit of a crush on her, too, still. This movie is like some kind of urtext for Ben's personality. It is the weirdest thing. I think this movie, and I want to say

frequent guest and great friend of the show, Emily Yoshida. And we talked, I think we talked about it on Mother of Blankies. Yeah. Mother of Blankies.

She loves this movie and she wanted to be on this episode, but I feel like, you know, she was just on an episode. Yeah. She was just on four hours

of Titanic. Yeah. We can't ask her to be in that little room again. Yeah. For a little while. So of Titanic. Yeah, we can't ask her to be in that little room again for a little while. But there are people who, and it was just some movie that I guess her and her mother could agree

on. I can't remember. It was something like that. But there are people who really hold on to this movie even though this movie was a nothing when it came out. A total nothing. I was on a plane with my mom last night and she was like, what are you going to do on the plane? And you load a movie onto your Amazon Fire Kindle? And I was

like, yeah, I did. I got to watch The Man Who Knew Too Little for the podcast tomorrow. And she went, the Bill Murray movie? And I went, yeah. And she went, that one? You're talking about that on the podcast? And I had to explain like, because she knows, she hasn't listened to the show, thank God. But she knows the basic idea of what her show is and she goes how does that fit into anything you would ever talk about

and i guess it's a fair question we let ben choose and i tried to even explain bender and i couldn't i went look if you met him for four minutes you would immediately understand why we're talking about this movie ben's like look and she wasn't being reductive to the movie she went like i remember that movie it's fun but like i don't understand why you would single out that movie to talk about if we're like a pitching roster you know griffin and i we're throwing fastballs we're throwing curveballs we're throwing change-ups you know we're even sometimes throwing mad balls yeah we've got a repertoire mad balls 90s toy craze mad balls no merchandise spotlight throwing mad balls ben is like a knuckleball he like comes in and we're like

you know we don't know where this is going to end up. I don't know. I can't even set the strike zone with this guy. You think the ball is going to go this way, but then it's like, whoop. That's what I'm all about. I'm now looking at mad balls. This one passed me by. They were cool. They were balls and they looked really gross.

It was like a head with like snot coming out of it. Remember when that was like a chief way to appeal to kids? It's like grosser. Like grosser. I want to make America gross again. The sort of Ren and Stimpy kind of era. I look at kid shit and I think it's too sleek now. I think kid shit's too concerned with being cool

whereas it used to be concerned with being gross. And I love that whole mentality of like like, this isn't for parents. Parents are going to be grossed out. Kids, you speak the language, you know? Yeah. Like, it was fucking, board games would be based around, like, fucking snot and vomit. Toys were all, like, pussy and shit.

Yeah. Slime, Gak, Floam. Gak. Gak was big. All right. So, sorry, just. Queasy Bake Oven? Easy Bake Oven for boys?

It was queasy? Okay, so. Chocolate Dirt Cake with Worms? All right, enough. So we'll just get back into it. He meets the femme fatale. They have a little kind of exchange. At this point in the movie, I feel they're really like trying to hit you over the

head with like her misinterpreting him yes yeah it's a little i don't know the part you're kind of like yeah i get it and playing it real hard yeah and there's all there's the flush jokes which i don't think are funny uh flushing a toilet isn't quite enough for me but the absurdity stuff plays so well like even just like what's your name? They just said Spencer. Like, I love that. I love that, like those weird, like, where he's just trying to, like, stay in the reality of the play, but like

what the person in the real world is interpreting is like, what the fuck is this guy talking about? Well, and I guess the other thing I can see appealing to you is like the precision of the miscommunication, because in order for a movie like this to work, every line has to be able to be seen from two different angles. The duality. And I think that really holds up for the most part throughout the movie.

I agree. They make it through most of the film without getting kind of sweaty. Yeah. Another favorite part in this scene. And like, again, I mean, this movie plays out kind of how you would imagine. It's like super straightforward for the most part it's just like a lot of hijinks working up towards this bomb sort of like yeah it's like uh moment at the end of the in lieu of doing the whole plot which is a ridiculous right we can't we can't go is there i mean i like the car chase scene a lot

i think it's really that's i like the way bill Bill Murray's breaking the reality there where he's just impressed with the technical proficiency of the car chase. What are some- It has my favorite line in the movie, too. Which is? Which is, Bill Murray is like, I mean, all my favorite lines are in this scene, actually, in the car chase. But he's swerving between the traffic cones and just making a meal out of it and doing everything he'd ever want to do in a car chase right right right and he goes like this must cost you a fortune there's no way they can be making a profit on this because he's going like they have to buy the traffic cones they have

to clear off the blocks and he just decides to after swerving through the traffic cones clips them off clip them off and they all pop off and he goes god i always wanted to do that and they cut to the police car and the one guy sort of he goes God I always wanted to do that And they cut to the police car And the one guy Sort of ruefully goes I always wanted to do that And then it pans over To the guy

In the driver's seat And he goes I always wanted to do that too It looks so fun It looks so fun And all three of them Specifically had had This fantasy in their life

Driving down the street Being like Wouldn't it be fun to do that And also The movie does it so well You're like Yeah that does look fun. It looks so much fun when they fucking do it.

I will never drive. I don't like driving as a theory. I've never driven at all. I like driving. But I watch this, and I'm like, man, it'd be cool to learn how to drive just so I could do that. And then retire from the game. I'll say another favorite moment. Laurie and Bill Murray are driving, and he goes, are you crying?

How do you people do it? Wait, do you poke yourself in the eye? Hold on, do you think, my dog is dead? Like, I, goddammit. Man, it makes me still laugh to this day, and I've seen this movie a million fucking times. But I mean, like the- Or do you poke yourself in the eye? Yeah.

The best thing is the whole Russian dancing. Wait, wait, wait. I don't trust you. Hold on. I don't trust you. This is just like the Fletch episode where Ben's just making himself laugh with its own lines. The movie's best

when it's juggling the most balls, I would say. Or juggling the most Russian nesting dolls. Indeed. So that's why the early scenes with just him and the girl, Laurie, you're like, okay. But the more layers you add onto this, the better it is. And also, I think the funniest moments are when you have other characters commenting on, like, this guy's unbelievable. Yeah, I really like that scene. So you've got Alfred Molina a younger Alfred Molina

playing Boris the Butcher who's like an assassin looking exactly how you imagine a sea lion would look. I like the scene where Bill Murray like accidentally takes out the two henchmen

while he's tied to the hotel chair and they're just like you know like what could we even do? His great physical Bill Murray behavioral comedy where he's got his allergies

acting up which they've set up yeah they've set it up they layered it in and not just didn't feel like foreshadowing and now he's like hacking and coughing right and needs his nasa next while they're right so he gets john thompson is that game kerplunk they are playing kerplunk okay which is a marble version of jenga essentially right um it's more fun to say, too. Definitely. And so John Thompson, who any British person probably knows from The Fast Show.

Have you ever heard of The Fast Show? No, humble brag. Great sketch show from the... I mean, yeah, just great. Okay. It's such an innocuous name that there are one million John Thompsons, but yeah, yeah.

Yeah. He's so funny. I love him. And he's the one who, yeah, who has to squeeze the uh the nasal spray yeah yeah and it's it's not right it's not right then he ends up accidentally knocking the two guys out and and while it's all happening Bill Murray's like terrific wow this is great like they slip on the marbles like he's like he he just thinks it's all

these elaborate studs now a little fun little moment in that part is when then he knocks into one of the passed out henchmen and he goes, oh, I'm sorry. Like, like he is still thinking like he, oh, I bumped into this guy by accident. I'm so sorry about that. Well, that's the other scene I really like is when they come across Spencer's dead body and he's just amazed at how well the guy is able to stand still. And in his mind, it's just this guy's just amazed at how well the guy's able to stand still and in his mind it's just this guy's really good at playing dead and she's horrified

and she immediately goes into like shocksing a dead body right and she just thinks he's such a cold-blooded motherfucker because he's

yeah he's just like inspecting this dead body with total ease she says like I've never seen a dead body before and he's like please I've seen

this a thousand times and then he's trying to catch him throwing the the ashtray at him saying things turn around going boogity boogogity, boogity.

I like this movie. Good dead body bit, man. This is kind of exactly the movie I need to see in the state of the world right now. Yeah, I saw it before, actually. Yeah, it's just like, get your mind off of stuff. Hey, fuck it, we're jumping around. I'll say- Yeah, no, we just got to jump around, guys.

Yeah, jump around. In the words of Chris Kais, you got to jump around. Oh, okay. I know what I wanted to talk about. It's where Brother Richie is calling the Theater of Life people. Yes. Because he's like, I need an extension. My brother's ruining this dinner with the Germans.

And so he calls. But what happens is the real police has shown up to the offices. And so they're like answering the calls right and there's this like confusion of who's the cop who's the actor who's in character who isn't it's similar to that there's something about Mary scene where

the cops are interrogating him and he thinks he's being interrogated about picking up hitchhikers I just love that joke always where the cops are like what's the matter with you you know like and he's just like, all right. Disgusting monster. Right. And they think he's bribing them because he's like, like, how much would it cost to get another hour out of this?

Yeah. I really need to stall. And it gives Peter Gallagher some fun stuff to do. Right. And they keep on going like, are you trying to bribe us? He's like, yeah, if that's the terminology I have to use. Yes, I'm trying to bribe you. You know, like he keeps on calling him Shakespeare.

But then it gets to a point where he's just like me, like talking about why he doesn't like British people. Yeah. You foxy little. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. And then and then it's. This is his awakening. It's maybe the best pure joke of the movie is when the police officer who gets off the phone is just like, I don't know what to say.

The guy's American, you know. Right, right. And then he goes over to a cop and he goes, tell me you were recording that phone call. And she goes, I'm an actor. He walks over to another cop. Yeah, and there's one continuous shot. He goes, tell me you were recording that phone call.

Yeah, yeah. Good, and then so- Oh, fuck, even the SWAT team, remember? He does the bit where he's like, oh shit, my brother's in trouble. I have to go out for some ports and the car keys. And then later the SWAT team shows up and, you know, it's even like. Yeah, the port and the car keys is a good line.

No, but it's like setting up this whole thing where, like, misinformation, like the maid says, Mr. Ritchie, go to port. And they're, like, closing all the ports in the whole country. says, Mr. Ritchie, go to port. And they're like closing all the ports in the whole country. But there's also, I like the setup of, you know, he goes, I need to get another bottle of port. And then she goes, we already have a bottle of port here. And he goes, yes, but the thing is, I have to go down to the basement and it's dark down there.

Like he no butts her, you know? She negates the logic and he just doubles down on it and makes it more complicated. Yeah, he ends up breaking into, I mean, the meta levels now. He goes into an area that says it's for performers only because he thinks he's performing. Right. So now he's doing a performance in the room with all the people who are trying to pull off the actual assassination. And so you've got the Russian doll where, like, if you click it one way, it's on and click it the other way, it's off.

And he keeps clicking. I love that. Yeah. I mean, it's Bill Murray dancing. That's a good, that's a gift. Bill Murray in a Russian hat. Always funny. That's funny.

Don't they repeat the same bit in fucking Charlie's Angels? I think they realized his head looks funny with the hat on it. Yeah, I think they do. I think he wears the hat. He is funny in Charlie's Angels. He is. Well, we'll have to- Famously, like,

basically got punched in the face by Lucy and Lou. When we wrap up this episode, we'll talk about what happens to Bill Murray after this movie, but that's kind of the end of- Okay, well then let's,

you know, let's move on. But he also, on Letterman a couple times, he wore a fucking Russian fur hat like that. I think he knows he's got a head built for that hat.

He's got a good, I'm now looking up him with like i just looked up bill murray russian hat yeah i'm actually just getting a lot of bill murray wearing many kinds of hats yeah i'm just saying i mean first of all bill murray looks great in a hat second of all someone make a bill murray rusky comedy yeah sure let's put him in that hat for the whole rt baby give me a full 95 minutes of him in that hat. Yes. I'm just trying to think of other fun moments. So what he thinks to be the evil scientist lady

is actually just this lovely older couple. Oh, that's funny. Who are just trying to throw some... Spice it up. Yeah, spice their role of life. That's a joke you couldn't do now. No. Him in the Nazi regalia, but it is funny. That's a joke you couldn't do now. No. Him in the Nazi regalia

but it is funny. She's kink playing as a Nazi. Right but it is funny because she's just like you've been very naughty haven't you? He's like yes.

They're so English about it but they're having a good time in their way. Because even before he takes her out of the room there are four times that he walks in

where you see her whipping and it never gets any crazier than that. It's just her in one position whipping. He's a schoolboy. He goes, oh, I'm very naughty. You know? It's funny. He takes her onto the elevator as a hostage with a real gun.

Real gun. He doesn't know it. And then there's this lovely little Asian couple and he goes, oh, actually we're just acting. And then he starts doing lines like two like just like again playing out this like theater of life and he teaches them how to act he's like just gonna be natural

be in the moment respond he's like yeah you had your fun this is what's fun about Bill Murray's performance in this where he's just like yeah he's just like look this is it's not hard this is how you act and then his head got sent home in a podcast. I like the scene where Alfred Molina comes to him

where he's trying to assassinate Bill Murray while he's doing the Russian dance, and then he ends up firing the arrow into the nesting doll, which then deactivates the thing. Which deactivates it, right. Oh, and the move that Murray does there is so funny. He sees the thing on the thing. He activates it, right. Oh, and the move that Murray does there is so funny. He sees the thing on the doll, then he looks

out like if someone had given him a rose. Do you know what I mean? He has this move where he's like, who did that? What a nice gesture. And also, Murray's killing it. I mean, it's like he's finally had his moment where he's performing in front of an audience and he didn't freeze up. And he says that to Gallagher. He's like, they were eating out of

my hand. Right. Because there was the thing where he goes like, hey, do you and he says that to Gallagher he's like they were eating out of my hand. Right. Because there was the thing where he goes like hey do you mind if I take because he realizes he's the only one without the rushing Nassendahl takes off the table

and he gets a laugh even from that and he's starting to like come into his power but then Molina comes up to him afterwards and he's like what just happened?

I don't know it's a little weird. Yeah nothing like a charley horse or something or there's an animal in my uh got a little spooky muscle spasm

essentially. David looked like a like a ghost just grabbed his armpit. That's how it in my... It got a little spooky. Muscle spasm, essentially. David looked like a ghost just grabbed his armpit. That's how it felt. All right, carry on, carry on. Melina comes to him and he's like,

game recognize game. Yeah, I love that. I've been trying to kill you this whole time. Yeah, that's always a good gag. But he gives him his gun and he's like,

you know, this was given to me by the best shooter I've ever seen and he gave it to me and you're the most impressive opposite. You know, Melina's always good.

He's always good. He's been better. Yeah. He doesn't, like, totally pop. Yeah, because I forgot. Nothing in this movie totally pops, if that's my criticism of it. Gallagher, I think, is the best. Absolutely. Gallagher and Murray pop, but, like, you know. One thing holding Gallagher back, I would say,

the only running gag in this movie I'm not crazy about. I don't think it's terrible, but I just go, ugh, every time it comes up, is the, when Bill Murray calls him it sounds like he's talking about a prostitute. Oh, sure. That gag's just like, we don't need that level. If we're gonna do that too, I think a thing that takes me out of it

is where he shoots the female lead. Like, he shoots her. And that's just really stupid. No one's that dumb. I agree. But, yeah, Molina, you know, when I saw this movie when I was eight,

I didn't know who Alfred Molina was. Sure. And so re-watching it and seeing Alfred Molina's name come up in the credits, I was like, oh, Molina's in that. I bet he kills in this. And you watch it and it's like,

oh, Molina's, like, doing his job. You know, the same year he's in Boogie Nights, and I feel like that's what begins to launch his sort of American career really in earnest. He'd been in American movies before. But that takes him to a whole new level. I mean, he's got a real

butcher sort of look about him. You've made that clear, Ben. I feel like if he ever needs to pick up work, just give him a butcher. Actually're saying actually become a butcher? Yeah. Do you want to take us to the end of the movie?

Ben, you want to wrap it up? He dismantles the bomb. Yeah. We sort of haven't mentioned there's this justification for really why the bomb is there because the Russians and the Brits want to get back together to basically have another Cold War because they want their weapons-hungry kind of bad guys. Yeah, they miss another Cold War because they want their weapons, you know, hungry kind of bad guys, you know? Yeah, they miss the Cold War.

We should also mention Peter Gallagher gets tortured. Yeah. He does get tortured. And that shocks him into realizing his life's been no good. All he's been chasing after is money, but he needs happiness. And his brother lives his life the way he wants to, on his own terms,

even if he does work at a blockbuster. Oh, there's that moment, too, where the brother calls up, where Bill Murray calls up on speakerphone, which they don't turn off, keeps on describing what sounds like a sex session with a sex worker, and then everyone is aghast, all the Germans are aghast,

and they go, his wife goes, he's in show business. And they go, oh, okay. Funny, pointed. And then at the end, you've got a very funny little coda where the CIA approach. Well, okay, we should also mention Bill Murray gets the girl and all the money. Yeah, he gets the girl and all the money.

But he approaches them on vacation, and Bill Murray again, uh-oh, he knocks everyone out by mistake. They're trying to poison him. And so they're like, we knew it. You're the best agent there ever could be and you got to join us. And he's like, cool, because he thinks he's going to be in a movie. There he is.

Right? Right, Ben? I think he thinks he's being approached for Hollywood. It's not clear. I took it that way. No, I think that's what it's supposed to be, but it's almost the thing where he knows that he was uh

the the guy who saved the day because he's sort of aware of the the the newspaper article uh-huh i feel like it's insinuated that he's aware of what he did but then it's not clear even to me still at this point i want to just believe that everything that happens around him even after it he can interpret it as part of the theater of life and thus is still just on the level like, yeah, people have got it. I'm a really great actor. I believe that he never wises up. And thus the thesis of the movie is life is but a play. Are we all not but players on this stage that we call humanity? And in fact, if you treat life like play, perhaps it frees you up to live the life you

want. All he needed was pretend in order to become real. Do you know what I'm saying, David? We live cathartically through our media. And I want fresh flowers! And ice! I want to shout out Richard Wilson,

who plays, uh, Roger Dagenhurst, you know, like the guy on the other end of the line, the British. Is he like the secretary of something? He's like the head of a spy agency. He famously plays Victor Maldrew on One Foot in the Grave, which was a very popular British sitcom in the 90s about a grumpy old man. Yeah. Who famously, one of those those British shows that seems like a cute sitcom, but

weirdly dark, but his catchphrase was, I don't believe it! And in Britain, if you say that, everyone knows what you're saying. You're having a laugh. But the weirdest thing about One Foot in the Grave, just to put this out there, is it was remade in America

as Cosby. The bill cosby follow-up yes now i think they tweaked it yeah but the that show like in the credit says like based on one foot in the grave like the bbc comedy that's crazy in which he plays like a grumpy old man the cosby he was like grumpier. Yeah. He wasn't like friendly. This movie comes out in 1997. It bombs. 1998, Rushmore comes out.

End of the year. And it's, I mean, this is phase three, right? This is the huge turning point. Yes.

And then after this, the next couple years, he plays a supporting role in Tim Robbins' Cradle of Rock, which he's good in, but that movie is a bomb. He plays Polonius

in Hamlet. Which he's also good in. And that movie's okay. Yeah. He plays Bosley in Charlie's Angels, which he's good in, but that movie is a bomb. He plays Polonius in Hamlet. Which he's also good in. And that movie's okay. Yeah. He plays Bosley in Charlie's Angels, which was arguably the last big paycheck Bill Murray role. Basically, very funny, but clashes heavily with everyone on set. He hates working on it. They write him out of the sequel.

Bernie Mac plays his role in the sequel. I went to see- Almost as funny. My family, we were big Nader supporters in in 2000 and we went to the nadir rally mass in square garden and bill murray came up and gave a speech and i remember this because it was amazing but bill murray came up and he said you know last thing you want to hear some lefty liberal celebrities getting up telling you who to vote for you know i mean it's presumptuous of me to assume that i have any sway any power and i was to my wife, I don't even want to come out here. I don't want to speak. I think it's too much.

And then I remembered, Bill, you're Bosley in the new Charlie's Angels movie. You have a rare power and responsibility. And the whole bit kept on being like, you're no mere celebrity. You're Bosley. And the joke was so clear that he was so embarrassed that he was in that movie.

I mean, this was like a month after Charlie's Angels had come out. But he's funny. He's funny in Charlie's Angels. He's funny in that, but then after that, Royal Tannenbaums. Osmosis Jones, which was shot earlier, had a long post-production because it was animated.

His parts in that are terrible and belong to the sort of pre, the phase three Murray era. He was doing that as, I think, a favor to the Farrelly brothers. He clearly doesn't look happy in that movie. It's unhappy. The half that is live action is really unhappy. The animated stuff is pretty fun. I agree.

Yeah. Lost in Translation, obviously. It's a big one. Big one, gets the Oscar. What did he whisper? The Oscar nomination. What did he whisper? Shut up, Ben.

I'm going to tell you at the end of the episode. Oh, okay, great. Now, he still makes some paychecks because he's got Garfield. Right, but you've got to do two days of voice work. It's different, you know? But then most of it- And also there's that famous apocryphal possibly story that Joel Cohen wrote. Right.

And he's like, oh, the Coen brothers wrote this? All right, I'll do Garfield. But I mean, who knows if that's true. So he makes the Life Aquatic and the Dark Dealing Limited and all the Wes Anderson movies he always pops up in Broken Flowers he's in Limits of Control he's in Coffee and Cigarettes

he does Zombieland which was like his biggest like purely comedic performance and it was you know like an uncredited cameo he rules in that movie Get Smart he's got one scene and he's really funny the only funny part of that movie, actually. Then I might even argue that somewhere around there. Phase four starts?

No, well, phase four ends. And then, yeah, phase five, which is what we're in now, starts where it's like, he makes these leading man roles again. Hyde Park on the Hudson. Like, Hyde Park on Hudson. St. Vincent. St. Vincent and Rocks the Casbah, where you're just like, dude, what? What?

This is your new career phase? He's in a weird space. I thought he was very good in The Jungle Book. I know a lot of people didn't. I really liked him in that. Why didn't you guys like St. Vincent? I didn't think it was great. I thought it was okay.

It felt to me like the kind of movie that Bill Murray would have made fun of. It was boring. You know, it felt like it was too tidy at the end. It felt like it didn't own his irascibility enough. Yeah. Yeah. Very true.

It felt a little too sanitized. He's in like the Monuments Men, which is also kind of like that. He's fine in it. He's in a weird phase right now because he's no, I mean, he doesn't really seem to be that interested in being a comedic leading man, but the dramas he picks are odd choices. I think he either needs to find a new director, maybe like a really good director who can maybe get something new out of him, or perhaps make another very good movie

with one of his guys that he works with right now. I mean, he hasn't done a Coppola movie since Lost in Translation, and also Wes Anderson's been giving him small roles. He's been a company player lately. He hasn't had a meaty, I mean, Moonrise was his meatiest one. Wes Anderson gave him the Life Aquatic,

which I feel like was, that was his big role for Wes Anderson. And that was notably a difficult shoot. But you just need the 800 number, right? And you could just call and leave a message? Sure. Do you guys know anyone? I have access to it. What? I don't think

I've ever told you guys this. You told me. I have the 800 number. Oh, shit. I just want to point out, he actually did do something with Sofia Coppola. He did a very Merry Christmas with her. Oh, I didn't like that. I didn't either. Nope.

Um, I, so like six years ago, I was working at a summer camp that I referenced a lot before where I went as a kid and then taught. Make this fast. Yeah. Yeah.

I, I, we were having a really hard time getting kids to care about comedy. Oh. And I really thought, cause we had a picture of Bill Murray hanging up in our little cabin. And I had the thought one day, my dad is close friends with one of the people who's in the Bill Murray kind of inner circle. Not, you know, Howard Franklin or anything, but one of these guys who he does trust.

I was trying to portmano his name with the universe and it wasn't working. And so my dad my dad has the number and i called him up and i said i just have this crazy idea i feel like if he checked his voice machine called your dad up you're being i called my dad up and i said i have this crazy idea i feel like if the timing was right and he checked the voice machine on that day if i said hey we're at a summer camp in connecticut i'm trying to get 12 year olds to care about comedy and they won't give a shit. Right.

Would you want to come teach a workshop? Because we'd have the workshops, and it'd be like, this guy used to go here, and now he's a writer's assistant on this. At the very best, it'd be like, this guy writes on Weekend Update. And it's like, oh, cool. And I just love the idea of doing a secret workshop. And my dad gave me the number, and he's like, I'll give this to you. Sure. I just want you to think about if you do it.

Yeah, take your shot. You've got one shot. And I know you have ambitions in your career. So you didn't do it, is what you're Sure. I just want you to think about if you do it. Yeah, take your shot. You've got one shot. I know you have ambitions you know, in your career. So you didn't do it. That's what you're saying. I've had this screenplay idea that I've never written that I'm not going to say on air because I don't want anyone to steal it. What if this guy was in like a living theater

play and then it turned out it got crossed over with like an action movie? I've always had this movie idea that I felt like was the best modern Bill Murray movie you could make. About a man who knows too little? A man who knows too little too. All right. No, I'm not going to say what it is because I don't want to air it.

That's fine. But my notion was always, and I'll just say this, is there a way you can make a Bill Murray movie that marries the two sides of Bill Murray? Can you make a movie that owns both the sad sack modern, you know, malazy Bill Murray and the wild crazy guy bill murray sure and i think i have an idea that works for that because i feel like if you could make a movie that has the pathos of current we get it we get it and allows bill murray to be a fucking you said it you said a fun guy you're repeating yourself you're repeating it's true we haven't someday i'm gonna write that and i got the phone number and that's the call and this is the dramatic tease i'll do for something that probably won't pay off 15 years from now.

Interesting. I also have some ideas I've been sitting on. Oh, baby. Let's all call him at the same time once a day, every day. No, no. But we've got to make sure that this is a thing that we keep in the back of our minds, guys. No question. Because I got the number.

He's got the number. I got the number. All right. Maybe, you know, can I just, maybe not today because we're about to wrap up here. Yeah. I'm going to maybe, I'll throw some log lines your way, guys. Okay. All right.

Some Murray logs. We'll keep that. There'll be a new segment if you want something. I'm going to float a couple logs your way, guys. We should play a box office game, though. Yes. Yes. Go ahead.

I'll do what I was going to say after we play a box office game. Oh, you've got some big thing planned. No, it's not. It's not. It go ahead. I'll do what I was going to say after we play Black Swan. Oh, you've got some big thing planned. No, it's not. It's not. November 14th, 1997 is the weekend the movie opened to $4.6 million at number five. Not good. It earned a total of $13.7 million on a $20 million budget. Even worse.

That's a low budget. Wow. Yeah. There's no worldwide gross listed. I don't think this film had almost any impact overseas. Okay. So this is a month before Titanic comes out. That's correct.

This is in the 97. It's a hot year, but it's not a great list. Okay. Number one is an action movie, an R-rated action movie starring a big action star. Franchise or a one-off? It's a remake, actually. It's a remake. You know what?

Honestly, it stars two stars, but one big action star. Okay. Who plays the villain. The big action star plays the villain. And the title role. Interesting. I don't know if you'll get this. Kind of a shrug of a movie.

And the other person... Plays like the guy who's hunting the villain. Now this is interesting. I always am interested by the phenomenon of the bigger star plays the villain and thus gets top billing and kind of unbalances the movie. A little bit, yeah.

You know, the Hunt for Red October thing, which I think is a good movie, but that's always that weird imbalance where it's like Baldwin isn't at the fighting level. Which is usually what that is. It's like you've got the more older star playing, but in this one, it's actually not true. Like, honestly, they're both about the same age. Interesting. But no doubt the villain is the bigger star, especially for action. So it's not Schwarzenegger, not Stallone.

I always have to ask that when we say action movie. No. Is it Bruce Willis? Yes. Is it the Jackal? Correct. Okay, cool. The Jackal.

It took me a while to get it, but once I got it, I got it immediately. Big hit. I mean, big hit movie worldwide. Right. Not a huge hit in America. Yeah. But open to 15 million. So number two had been number 1 the week before

it's a massive super violent sci-fi epic Starship Troopers? One of my favorite movies fantastic film which we will unquestionably cover one day do on this podcast that was making 10 million in it's second weekend

misunderstood friend of the show pilot I just re-watched it and I was blown away and 10 million in its second weekend. Misunderstood. Friend of the show pilot. Oh, it was so misunderstood. Very misunderstood. I just rewatched it and I was blown away. That's the best. Friend of the show pilot Vera was recently telling me that she, that was like the first R-rated movie

she went to see because her parents were like, well, it's like some sci-fi movie. Yeah, go have fun. And she saw like a bunch. And like that movie has like a ton of nudity as well as like really insane violence. Well, because that movie's directed by Paul Verhoeven. And right. And then later her mom watched it years later and she was like wait a second wait a second you were seeing this uh number three is a reissue of a disney animated

film 1997 i honestly didn't even remember that this got reissued this was the tail end of when they were doing reissues yeah um because that was for a long time disney wouldn't release their movies on home video or they would for a second and then put it back in the reissues. Because that was, for a long time, Disney wouldn't release their movies on home video. Or they would for a second and then put it back in the vaults. The reissues were the big thing. 97,

can you tell me what era of Disney it was? Disney Renaissance, you know. It was not that old a movie. Okay, so it was like an 80s movie? Yeah.

Was it Little Mermaid? Yes. Interesting. Yeah, they reissued that one. Number four, you know, British comedies. They were in there.

I think I know what it is. What is it? The Full Monty? Nope. Oh, fuck. But I bet the Full Monty's hanging out in there. Okay, I got another guess. I feel like the Full Monty is about to make its sort of slow. I think it was a slow build.

Yeah. I got another guess. Bean? Yeah. Hells yeah. Bean. 97 I remember pretty vividly. Yeah. Which I saw in theaters for sure. Yeah. I got another guess. Bean? Yeah. Hells yeah. Bean! 97 I remember pretty vividly. Yeah.

Which I saw in theaters for sure. Yeah. 97 was like one of the years where I started getting really serious about movies, you know? Okay. Sure. So you just started to go see movies like Bean? Yeah. Well, yeah.

I saw Bean probably three times in theaters, but I also, I'm not joking. People have asked in the past how I know all this shit. Not to, I'm going to say this very quickly. My father loves sports, and he loves sports stats, and my brother and him could always talk about that. My brother wanted to be a sportscaster. My dad wanted to be a sportscaster. When Toy Story came out, and I love Toy Story,

and I saw that it was the number one movie in America, my dad was like, oh, you know there's a box office. And so every Monday morning when I woke up for school, my dad would take out the New York Times and we'd read the top ten. So it's all burned by memory because it was a bonding exercise with my father. And now I still do it and we talk on the phone on Mondays and go like, hey, what about that? Hey, Dr. Strange, good hold. Good hold. We talked about the hold.

Good hold. My dad and I talk about. Does your dad listen to the podcast? Absolutely not. He never does. Yeah, he better not. Man Who Knew Too Little. Yeah, seriously.

Man Who Knew Too Little was number five. So that's your top five. Okay. Other movies in there, you've got I Know What You Did Last Summer. As Good As It Gets? Is that in there?

Does that come out later? Does that not come out until December? Yeah, it comes out later. You've got The Devil's Advocate. Okay. A lot of R-rated. You know, that was the days

where the fall was really like, movies just suddenly got violent. The Jackal. Another Richard Gere vehicle. By the way, Richard Gere's in The Jackal. Another Richard Gere vehicle. By the way, Richard Gere's in The Jackal. Red Corner. I don't even know that one. That's like, he went to China, and China was really fucked up, and locks up journalists.

Very anti-China. I think Richard Gere is banned from China. Please, please, please. Dickie Gere. Yeah, Dickie Gere. Okay. I kept, I realized this recently, when I emailed Sony, I think itie Gear. Yeah, Dickie Gear. Okay. I kept, I realized this recently when I emailed Sony,

I think it's Sony, yeah, Sony, to see Billy Lynn's long halftime walk. I was like, hey, you got any screenings for Billy Flynn's

long halftime walk? Which is Richard Gere's character in Chicago. To their credit, did not correct me. Cool. Boogie Nights is in there. Okay. Eve's Bayou. Ooh. Boogie Nights is in there. Okay.

Eve's Bayou. Very underrated. Cassie Lemon's movie. I've never seen that. I need to see it. I like Cassie Lemon's a lot. Fantastic piece of black cinema. Mad City.

Oh, yeah. It's Costa Gavris, I believe. John Travolta. Yeah. Justin Hoffman. What a weird time. Scintillating satire. Yeah.

Of the media. Yeah. Weirdest one in here? You've got like the full Monty way down. One lastintillating satire of the media. Yeah. Weirdest one in here? You've got like the full Monty way down. One last one. Come on. Let's go to the guy. Men in Black.

I was going to guess. Which leapt 700% from the week before because it added like 300 theaters. Yes. Well, this was a thing they used to do. It's already made $250 million, but it just like bumps back in. I feel like I distinctly remember this and from that fall. Yeah, because it didn't come out in July. This is November.

They used to do this thing that was like the summer movies in the fall, once they were pretty much down, they'd do one last splash to ring them out. You want to see it again? Hey! And sometimes what they would do was they'd make it a double feature. So they'd be like, I know in 2002, both Spider-Man and Men in Black 2, in September or October October were done with their box office runs and they were double featured, two for the price of one.

And that was number eight at the box office. It was people sitting for three hours of Men in Black 2 and Spider-Man. David Mime shooting himself in the head. So here's the last thing I want to say today. Sure. A little housekeeping. In our previous episode, we talked about our next min-series, which is going to be Spielberg, the DreamWorks years, unofficial title, working title.

Yeah, we might not do better. DreamWorking title. Oh, you didn't do Ben's names. Yeah, because it's his episode. Oh, yeah, that's the reason. I'm shocked that you didn't, even though I love you not doing that. You're shocked that I didn't say Producer Ben? You're shocked that I didn't say the Ben-dooser?

not doing you're shocked I didn't say producer Ben you're really you're shocked I didn't say the band user Purdue or Ben the poet laureate the Haas the tiebreaker birthday Benny the fuckmaster the poet laureate our finest film critic yeah Joe and Katie recently told me that's their favorite one our finest film critic white hot Benny soaking wet Benny birthday Benny dirtbag Benny I'm repeating them sure you're shocked I didn't wish him a hell of a fennel I'm shocked you're shocked that I didn't mention that he's graduated to certain titles of the series over a miniseries? No, this is why I remembered it, because I've got a couple ideas that people have pitched to me.

Well, you know, there's Ben what? Ben what? Kenobi? Obi-Ben Kenobi. Producer Ben Kenobi. Producer Ben Kenobi. Kylo Ben. Ben Say.

Ben Eichanlon. Say Ben-ything. Say Ben-ything. Dot, dot, dot. So for the James Cameron, now concluded James Cameron series. T-Ben Thousand. I've heard T-Ben Thousand. Sure.

Joe Reed gave me Unobtainy Ben. I thought it was Unobtainy. Benobtainium. Benobtainium. Dan Daddario, who came up with Say Bennything. Uh-huh. Okay. Ailey Benz.

That's really good and you DM me with trying to make this two for two yeah Ailey bends that's pretty good oh god good good you gotta think this one over

so those are floating out there maybe we'll think of one more so we can have your classic Twitter poll. Four option Twitter poll. Yeah but the problem is we're recording these episodes like five months in advance. We can't poll it because then they'll be like you know what I'm saying? We could poll it. Oh whatever. Fuck it. I don't care. Who gives a shit? Here's the plan.

We'll do something. Yeah. Schedule's gonna be a little weird. Schedule's gonna be weird. Look. So this episode's coming on the tail end of a nice James Cameron miniseries, right? What's going on after that? The week after this, our next episode will be Rogue One. We're dipping back into Star Wars. Right where we started.

New Star Wars film we've always promised. Someone we've covered has a new project. We've got to cover it, right? So we're talking about Rogue One. What are we doing after that? Technically, we're going to be off for the next month but releasing new episodes we're going to give you some best of

because a lot of people jumped on in blank check days we want to show some respect for the Star Wars days and for people maybe jumped on in a later blank check miniseries 100% things like that so we're going to give you one miniseries each of our Star Wars miniseries is going to have its own best of episode we're going to give you a lot of bits this is going to be a lot of origin stories for where a lot of our Star Wars miniseries is going to have its own best of episode we're going to give you a lot of the bits

this is going to be a lot of origin stories for where a lot of our great bits come from so I guess yeah we're going to have a bit of a Star Wars return to Star Wars because it's going to be Rogue One and then some Star Wars greatest hits that'll be in January guys and then and then M. Night Shyamalan's new film Split comes out yeah baby

so Ben Night Shyamalan will come back and then we'll talk about Split we start Spielberg so at the end of January we're planning Spielberg Yeah, baby. So Ben Knight, Sean Moore will come back. And then- We'll talk about Split. We start Spielberg. So the end of January, we're planning Spielberg, the DreamWorks years, we'll start with his one non-DreamWorks movie from the DreamWorks years. Right. The Lost World, Jurassic Park.

So just want to give everyone the fair warning. There's going to be a gap before we get to the next miniseries. You're not going to miss out on blank check content. You're going to get stuff every week. Yeah. It'll be fun, guys. It'll be fun. And also, come on, give us some time. We've got to bank up because we're going to make sure we keep on releasing episodes

while I'm ticking also we're working on merch guys it's ticking forever we're trying to get our stuff in order we'll see what happens well the problem is it was about to dock into the port and then Peter Gallagher made that phone call Consuela picked up and now this all the ports are closed we have we've had the blank check the night mask

sleep mask so ben what's your next it won't be a long time from now it'll be a long time from now actually because spielberg will take a while yeah but uh start thinking about your next Ben's choice. Yeah, I will. Seven months from now. I'm actually, I feel like there's an aspect of me, because I'm a goof. I don't take movies that seriously, you know? But there was definitely a period of my time, a time in my life where I was studying to be a fiction writer and had sort of my like art movie phase.

Okay. So I feel like we haven't done any like artful kind of stuff. Okay. So that's a tease for what's going to happen next summer. Maybe it'll be 500 blows. I mean, it'd be 400 blows shortly. No, except with the sequel. 401 blows.

Well, that's a good tease for what's going on in the future. Ben's calling his shots. He's going on in the future Ben's calling his shots he's gonna do an art house movie tune in next week for Rogue One and then a nice Star Wars run before we go back

into M. Night Territory before I give you Spielberg the DreamWorks year we gotta do Splitman it's gonna be the first time I know it's just it's gonna be the first time

we're doing like you know going back to the pool our little kids are growing up it's gonna be fun thank you all for listening please remember to rate review subscribe tell your friends all that good stuff uh and as always yes oh shit i got one i want to say if you don't if you don't want no please because i'm gonna do you a favor here ben i'm gonna answer a question you asked

sure and as always ben do you want to know what Bill Murray whispers to Scarlett Johansson at the end of Lost in Translation? Yeah. Producer Ben, a.k.a. the Ben-ducer, a.k.a. Purdue-er Ben, a.k.a. the Haas, a.k.a. Mr. Positive, a.k.a. the tiebreaker,

a.k.a. the fuckmaster. He is not Professor Crispy. He is our finest film critic critic he is the poet laureate he's white hot benny he's soaking wet benny he's dirt bike benny you see him on the streets you know with a hearty hello fennel he's graduated certain titles over the course of different miniseries, such as Kylo Ren, producer Ben Kenobi, Ben Night Shyamalan, Ben Tate, and Save Anything. I mean, they sped it up in post, so it didn't take that long.

Yeah, I was going to say, that's a lot for him to whisper. Right, but I swear to God, that was the whisper. That's awesome. Yeah, it's cool. I mean, I wasn't even producing then, but I guess they knew what was going to be.

Look, I mean, that's what makes a great filmmaker. Sometimes you come upon happy accents. David's left the studio. Yeah, David's gone. David's gone. Well, hey,

that was a good end to the episode. I think so, too. I felt like that was a fun one. We didn't talk about politics too much, which is good, because by the time people are listening to this

they're not going to want to hear about it it'll probably be new yeah no one's going to want to hear us in the past talk about the terrible things that are currently

happening right now that's the thing because there are going to be new terrible things by the time this comes out I don't expect anything to be resolved it's just these terrible fears

are going to be they're going to look quaint he's going to have been like here's the this is the department head of babes He's going to have been like, here's the department head of babes. He's going to have a babe department. And it's going to be Himmler. He's going to resurrect Himmler and make him the...

I think we should cut this part. I don't know. I think we should double it. Great. Here we go. Okay. Great. Here we go. Okay.

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