Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Matrix Reloaded

Episode Date: April 28, 2016

This week, Griffin and David examine the highly anticipated 2003 follow up, The Matrix Reloaded. Was it a misstep to build this release around a video game (Enter the Matrix) most viewers hadn’t played and an animated series (The Animatrix) most of the audience hadn’t seen? Was it worth bringing Agent Smith back? Does David convince Griffin to reevaluate his feeling towards this film? Listen along as they discuss how most of the characters in this movie represent computer programs, the tragic loss of actress Gloria Foster during the production, the grossness of the Merovingian and Producer Ben shares his thoughts on The Keymaker.

Hello Neo, I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I have been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant. Life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which, despite my sincerest efforts, I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. The Matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly anomaly's systemic creating fluctuations, and even the most simplistic equations. The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect. It was a work of art, flawless, sublime, a triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom, as it's apparent to me now, is a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately affect the varying grotesqueries of your nature.

However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the Matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution where nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice, I'm not into that. You know why? Why? Your MoveNeo-ed style, look. Ergo, those that refuse the program are a minority. If unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of podcast. I'm not into that. You know why?

Why? You removed Neo's dialogue. I'm what? You removed Neo's dialogue. Well, I didn't want to give you stuff to memorize. No, no. That speech doesn't work without Neo's dialogue. Do you know why I cut the speech out at that point?

Why? Because that was the point where I was out of breath. That makes sense. That was the test was to see how long into it I could go before I was about to pass out. It doesn't work without Neo's dialogue. You want me to give you some sides for the day and you have to

fucking memorize like six lines? We can roll with what you just did or we could cut it off at Neo's first line, which is crucial. But whatever. Whatever you want to do. My name's Griffin. I'm David. Welcome to... Blank Check. With Griffin and David.

That's right. This is a May series. It's called... Podchowski Caster. I honestly... I know. I always trip up in my mind for a second. No, I was just going to say, I verbally feel like I just walked up a flight of stairs. I'm like verbally winded right now. You were trying to piss me off, but I think you actually just made yourself angry.

I made myself furious. I feel terrible right now. Because I was just like, what a great scene. I mean, I was annoyed because I was very annoyed that you cut off Neo's crucial dialogue. That was the only part that annoyed you. That was the only part that annoyed me.

By the way, I made it through, I think, 30% of that. Oh, yeah, that's the other thing. I was like, because I know this movie so well, I was like, this is too long. Like, it's legit. It's actually too long. There's no way he can do it.

There was no way I was going to make it to the end, but I wanted to figure out what the right point was. And the point was. I wasn't even listening. Where did you actually cut out? No, I just fucking, I literally felt like I was about to faint. I just said the word podcast. Yeah.

All right. Well, I'm sorry. And I'm glad that no one's listening to this episode now. Zero percent retention. I will say a couple of our fans, the Blankies, David Dogs, the Hush Hogs, the Griff Heads, I messed that up, right? Hush Heads, David Dogs, Griff Heads. Whatever the fuck it is.

Had said, had prodded me and be like, you got to do the architect. You got to do the architect. I mean, as we were just saying, there's no tagline for the movie that we're gonna discuss. There's no obvious catchphrase. No, you know what the tagline was? In theaters May 2nd. Yeah, well, hey, that's when it was in theaters. That's all they needed.

It was The Matrix 2. They didn't need a tagline. They just said, hey, you folks wanna see more Matrix? And everyone in the world said, yeah. Uh-huh. Everyone's like, yep. More of that. And here's one guy who was ready to see more Matrix. Purdue in the world said yeah. Everyone's like, yep. More of that. And here's one guy who was ready to see more Matrix.

Verdure Ben. Yeah. Producer Ben. Ben Hosley. People are just like, delete. The Ben-do-cer. No, come on. They're staying with us. Poet laureate, Mr. Positive. I don't mean about Ben. I just mean about Hardtoy. No, no, I mean, yeah. No, it's like you start off with that weird opening and then now you got this long

set of nicknames. The Tiebreaker. Birthday Benny. The Fuckmaster. He's not Professor Crispy. I always confuse which one he is now. He is Producer Ben Kenobi. Kylo Ben. And Ben Night Shyamalan.

And I would please beg our entire audience to wish him a hearty hello fennel right now. I'm lifting an imaginary hat off of my head. That was what that signal was. Hello fennel. And that's good because Ben is a noted hat wearer. I am.

And I'm also very much a proponent of getting our merch in order. Yeah. So maybe a hello fennel hat to a tip of a fennel to you, sir. Makes sense to me. Yeah. I want to point out, I think every merchandise idea we've had so far is related to Ben and only Ben. Yes, it should be. As is most of this podcast, really.

Make a bunch of Ben merch. No, no, we did say, though, erotic fan fiction coloring books. Oh, yeah, but we still haven't gotten that. We need, yeah. Yeah. No, we're going to make this happen soon enough. Ooh, we just got some ventilation here. Air conditioning, I love it. I think for literally the first time ever during recording. In yeah. Yeah. No, we're going to make this happen soon enough. Ooh, we just got some ventilation here. Air conditioning, I love it. I think for literally the first time ever during recording.

First time in 2016. Yeah. All right. Usually recording this podcast feels like we're in the movie Cube. Good pull, good pull. No one's spraying acid in our faces, though. I remember one of the Cube rooms sprayed acid on you in Cube. God, we should go to Cube again.

Let's do the cube franchise cube cube to hypercube is that what it's called and then i believe there was a prequel cube zero or something like that yeah can i throw out i think all sequels should be called blank to hyper blank so this by that logic should have been called the matrix to hyper matrix all right all right that would have been fine yeah it would have been cool. So, gents, we're here today. This is our podcast. We're discussing the careers of the Wachowskis, the great directors. This is the Wachowski casters.

That is. That's the name of this miniseries. I did name it. Oh, okay, cool. It's okay. It was 45 minutes ago. Yep. And we're here today in a room much like the Architect's headquarters.

Very similar, actually. White, sort of cube, windowless. No TVs on the walls though. To discuss the film The Matrix Reloaded. The Matrix Reloaded. Yes. The second Matrix film. Released I think it was May 2nd or May 1st? It was May 7th. No no no.

May 15th. The premiere was at Man Village Theater. I remember it being the first week of May. You know what? I think Wikipedia might be wrong for the first time. No no it's not. It's not. It's May 15th. May 15th? Okay. May 15th, 2003. Correct. It was the third film by the Wachowskis. And it was, I mean, highly anticipated.

Quite hyped. It was made in the era of Lord of the Rings, and a little later was the Pirate sequels, where it was like, hey guys, let's make them all. Let's make a couple. Let's make them back to back. Let's do it all in one big soup. So I believe the first film to ever do that was Back to the Future 2. Back to the Future 2 and 3.

And there have been examples before where they would shoot pieces of one movie while filming another. Well, yeah, Superman did that. No, Superman, I think, was genuinely intended to be a one and two. And the only reason they didn't do it exactly like that was because they fired Richard Donner. So I think Superman is I mean I'm sure way back in Hollywood history they used to do that all the time where they're like we're gonna

do six you know Captain Jack movie. Right well and like the Universal horror movies I mean they were shit where like they filmed Spanish Dracula on the same set as American Dracula. Set's gonna go to waste. Come on just do one a day one at night. I don't know. I believe what happened with Superman,

if I'm not mistaken, was their plan was they had both scripts they were gonna do both simultaneously. Then they went over schedule and they were like- And also they-

Donner clashed with the studio and stuff like that, right? Right. But the idea was they were like, okay, we're not gonna have a time to do both right now. Let's do like one and a third.

Sure, right. And then we'll take a break and then we'll come back and we'll do two. Right. Because that's the reason Gene Hackman's barely in Superman 2, right? Right let's do like one and a third. Sure, right. And then we'll take a break and then we'll come back and we'll do two. Right, because that's the reason like Gene Hackman's barely in Superman 2, right? Right. He was like, fuck you. And they had shot the third already. Yeah.

So like the clash then happened and then they were like, you're not coming back, Richard Lester and new writers to come back and do the second half of two. Back to the Future 2 and 3 was the first time we're like, we're going to make both sequels back to back and release them same year or were they a year apart? I can't remember. I think it might have been like a July, February type thing. I mean, they were like seven months apart.

And then, of course, right around this period, which we're discussing, the Lord of the Rings movies were just wrapping up. Return of the King came out in 03. And they were all three at the same time. They'd made them all at the same time

and think they'd gone back and added stuff. They would do reshoots for every movie. They do like a, you know, stuff. Yeah, too much pickup stuff. Yeah. But they had shot everything in this like massive chunk. Yeah. Which is to this day kind of staggering to think about.

And I'm not even a huge fan of those movies, but it's like an accomplishment. You can't deny it. But you know the amazing story that like changes film history is. Shoot. Yeah. Well, so it was similar to this back to the future was you know so beloved everyone wanted back to the future too yeah of course right zemeckis and gail bring a script to universal and it was like 7 000 pages long because they had like 50 alternate ideas for what they could do yeah i mean that's the problem with

a time travel movie right you can kind of do anything right so they were like what if we go to the 60s what if we go back to the 50s what if we go to the 60s? What if we go back to the 50s? What if we go to the future? What if we go to the Old West? This and that. And I think someone, like they one day went to them and were like, what if we did two instead of one? Yeah.

What if we split the script in half and did this and then weirdly made one movie time traveling all over the place, one movie, just a Western? Yeah. So it's weird. I think we're not talking back to the future. No, but I do think it was detrimental to both movies

the decision they made I love two I even like two with the cliffhanger yeah I like two a lot I like three a lot I just feel like

I would have liked both more you know in different circumstances yeah I think possibly they're flawed movies but that was the first time where like

at the end credits it's hard to follow a perfect movie. Yeah, one of the few 100% perfect films ever made. And you know what? This is another movie that has that trouble. Pretty perfect. Tough to follow The Matrix.

But that was the first time where at the end of Back to the Future 2, it said to be continued. Right. And then there was- The logo was ready. And then there was a trailer for Back to the Future 3. The trailer was in the end credits, which also happens here. At the end of the end credits. Because even Harry Potter, like, okay, we're

going to make seven, but it wasn't like they did it one at a time. Yes, that's right. Lord of the Rings, Peter Jackson thought no one was going to let him make three. So he condensed it to two. He went to studio, studio, studio and everyone said, no, no, no, two is too much. It was New Line who said, like, this needs to be three.

They said, let me ask you one problem. Why isn't it three films? And it became three, and the game was changed. The game, it was changed. Now, the Matrix had come out. This was probably happening around the same time, because I think the Fellowship, the Lord of the Rings, we probably started filming around 99. Or at least pre-production and whatever. All that stuff was happening.

Right. So at the time that it's clear that they're going to make a Matrix sequel, they know that Lord of the Rings is doing this. Yes. And that is in fact, it's over at New Line which is owned by Time Warner. Which is in the same sort of universe as Warner Brothers. And obviously

if that had not worked, New Line would have gone under as it later did. Because they did that with the Golden Compass or whatever. But so yeah, maybe that idea is floating around had gone under as it later did because they did that with the golden compass or whatever but uh so you know so yeah maybe that idea is floating around in the corporate culture but obviously also the matrix uh talk about a hit you know huge uh and and here's the thing talk about a blank check at the years between 1999 2003 the matrix just grows and grows and grows like it was a huge hit when it came out but it becomes one of the highest selling DVDs of all time.

Yeah, that's the thing. The cult around it deepens. A box office hit that then, right, everything else, just the soundtrack, you know,

everything. But it felt like, oh, this is as big as a movie can get and then just got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And it sounds like,

you know, we weren't alive at this point but when people describe what sort of happened between Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back, there were a bunch of re-releases

were in place of people having DVDs and being able to re-watch it over and over again and just became like so fervent where the time the second one opened like our hopes and dreams rested on the shoulders of this movie. Yeah. No, I think with big franchises like this, there are two strategies

you can employ, right, for how you do a sequel. One is you just do another story. Yeah, in the same world. And the second one is, you make it a mythology. Sure, you dig in. Here's the next chapter. And you make it feel like, whether it was always the intention or you're retroactively doing this.

Right, well it's the classic argument that people like George Lucas make where they're like, well I always had six more movies. I always had a lot planned out. Right. And then, you know, which is always kind of hard to call them on. Yeah. But often feels not true.

You're like, you see the sequel and you're like, I don't know if you really had this like really, really set in stone, man. But yeah, you look at the difference between the two George Lucas franchises, right? It's Indiana Jones and Star Wars. Do you go, this is one saga? Or do you go, here's It's Indiana Jones and Star Wars. Do you go, this is one saga? Or do you go, here's just another Indiana Jones movie? Yeah, the Indiana Jones movie sequels, they're almost like James Bond-y,

where it's just like, yeah, this time he'll do this. There'll be a new lady, and we'll just do another thing. The James Bond movies actually completely disregard any sense of continuity. They go out of their way. They have internal continuity sometimes with the actors. Yeah. But that's it.

And then usually when an actor is done, it's kind of a soft reboot. In the case with Daniel Craig, it was more of a hard reboot. But then you still have Judi Dench staying on as Em through to Bond. Yes, which was an interesting decision. It was a contractual decision. It worked.

It worked. But that was totally that they had made a eight-picture deal with her. I mean, there's nothing like James Bond, to be fair. Yeah, a contractual decision. It worked. It worked. But that was totally that they had made an eight picture deal with her. There's nothing like James Bond, to be fair. James Bond is a franchise that's always played by its own rules, and it's hard to copy. The Matrix doubles down in a way I think no franchise since Star Wars

had, about being like, this is a saga. Yeah, I'm trying to think if there is another obvious example. I don't know that there is. The Planet of the Apes franchise is weird and that comes before Star Wars? Definitely. The Planet of the Apes franchise is its own special crazy thing. But that was definitely a thing where they kept making

sequels, but they did not have it all planned out. It was more just like you know... Ernest. The Ernest franchise. And Ben literally paused, looked over, and was like, I got it. To the listener at home, Ben's performance on that was so good. It was commanding.

The sincerity with which Ben hit his knee and was like... Oh, great. Ben has an interesting example. I can't wait to hear his interesting example. I love the Planet of the Apes movies. I'd love to do a miniseries on them at some point. They're fascinating. I think there's Planet, and then there's a nice three-film arc, right? And then there's another one. Is that the... I can't remember. Yeah, some point. They're fascinating. I mean, I think it's like, there's like Planet, and then there's like a nice three-film arc, right? And then there's like another one. Is that the...

I can't remember. Yeah, kind of. It's weird. It's crazy. They're sort of cyclical, because the last one ends where the first one begins, kind of. Well, also, doesn't the second one end with Earth blowing up, and then they have to deal with that, because they had to make a third one, so they're like, okay, they go back in time! Yeah. And also,

each one ostensibly has a different lead character, which is a very unusual way to do a franchise like that because you have a new audience surrogate every time. So even if the world's established, you have a new entry point to come in with. Which is something... I like it a lot, conceptually. No, no, there's something I'm more thinking like,

could The Matrix have done something like that? Maybe. I was thinking that a lot while watching this movie. I mean, of course, that's ludicrous because this movie's great. But I think if you made a Matrix 4, let's say, let's say Warner Brothers goes to the Wachowskis and they're like, guys, we want, it's time,

and we really need a hit. And it's like, why don't you make a Matrix 4? Then maybe they could be like, okay, well, it's just going to be about a new person. Jaden Smith. Oh, boy. Yeah, no, there is that thought. We're going to tie in the After Earth franchise. We're going to get them together.

No, because when this movie starts you do have three characters who sort of just like, got it together. You know what I'm saying? Beginning of Matrix Reloaded? Yeah. That's what I love about this movie. Okay, so here's... Oh, P.S. I love everything about this movie. David, here's the challenge I want to throw to you, and I don't say this

in any sort of antagonistic way. No, no, no. Well, I bet you do. No, I don't. I genuinely don't. I had not seen this movie since it came out, right? Uh-huh. 2003, I was amped for this movie. Yeah, we should maybe talk about that for a second, but if you want to throw your challenge out first, let's do it. Let's build up

to this and the challenge will come out of that. Yeah, so we probably both saw this movie in theaters opening weekend yeah i i saw it i believe opening night i saw it with my friend you were probably for 14 ish 2003 i would yeah it would have been 14 yeah i was like 17 yeah i was and like obviously i think we were both amped yeah the trailers were great i mean i to say, I even remember a year earlier going to see Attack of the Clones. Sure.

Attack of the Clones! Yeah. With my friend Skylar Reddick at the AMC 25 and they played the first teaser for the Matrix Reloaded. that rings a bell, yeah.

And the teaser was so good, everyone walked out of Attack of the Clones being like, and remember, Can't wait, can't wait. I liked Attack of the Clones.

It was like, whoa, Yoda, we were all like We loved it at the time, but even walking out, we were like, that Matrix trailer was the real thing, right? I remember, and I should have rewatched the trailers before we recorded.

I forgot to do that. But I just remember the trailers being like hot shit. They're really good. Really, really, really good. I think they still hold up as really incredible pieces of like a trailer editing. But I remember that was like, everyone walked out there and was just like,

when Star Wars started, we were bummed out. We couldn't watch Matrix Reloaded immediately. Yeah. You know? And even like amongst my friends who I was a big movie nerd,

but other people weren't. Everyone was hyped. And they were like, I heard they're doing two at the same time. They're filming in Australia. Everyone was in. It's this big thing.

Everyone knew all this shit about what was going on. And there was all this stuff. There was like the Animatrix. There was all the like general stuff floating around. This was like the first time that someone really tried to make like a big transmedia property where the story was fragmented. So you had.

Again, I'm trying to think if there are any other examples. But for sure, it was very concerted because partially I think just because the Wachowski was like, we like comic books. We like video games. Yeah. We like anime. Let's like do it all. Right. Like, yeah. So they have like six anime shorts. I think nine. I think there are nine We like anime. Let's do it all, right?

So they have six anime shorts. I think nine. I think there are nine anime tricks movies. We will rewatch them for this. In various forms. There's a CGI one. There's various forms of animation.

Different directors and stuff. I think one or two of them were released theatrically. I know one of them was released before Dreamcatcher. I think only Final Flight of the Osiris and that was before Dreamcatcher. Yeah. And that was the one where I mean to look at it now it looks like a

PlayStation 3 clip but like back then it was like wow look at this. The video game is like a parallel story from a different perspective. I think we talked about that in Enter the Matrix it's called. It's basically just like filling in little chunks of Jada Pinkett Smith's character's story.

The most fascinating character in the film. And I was just reading, they shot an hour of 35mm footage. It's on the Blu-ray. I only noticed this when I was leaving, but I am going to watch that and we'll comment on it for future episodes. But there's an hour of straight Wachowski footage. I remember reading some interview

with Jada Pinkett Smith at the time where she was like, I literally would be they'd be setting up the shot and I'd be like is this for the video game? What's this for? And they'd just be

like just don't worry about it. Like she did not know what was in the movie like of what she had made. But there's a lot of this where like

Naomi's character doesn't really do anything in the movie of much consequence. She's there to tie to the video game. I guess so. Yes.

I mean that's when she shows up near the end of the movie I think they're thinking like and you'll to the video game. I guess so. Yes. I mean, when she shows up near the end of the movie, I think they're thinking, and you'll play the video game, you'll have known where she was up to. And it's like, we don't care what she was up to. She's, what, the 12th lead? Come on. That was their big gambit at the time.

And then even the kid who Neo saves is one of the animatrix shorts. Yeah, he works better, I think, just because in the movie you're like, look, I get it. It's just some fucking know that they rescued like we get what the job of neo is that people are looking up to neo and they're indebted to him and all this but i even remember seeing it with my friends and being like he's more of a problem in the third movie yeah but i remember seeing this like everyone knew that it was this big transmedia thing and i remember seeing it with

friends like once again weren't as movie literate as I was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The kid would show up and we'd be like, oh, I think he's a fucking cartoon. Anytime something was sort of thrown out, we'd be like, is that from the comics? You were watching it knowing you needed these appendixes, which was very different.

So A, planning the franchise out and advance that sort of way. A big, and maybe largely a misfire, but a big epic undertaking. And the transmedia thing, which people felt at the time was sort of a misfire. Like the video game was not well received, you know? It's a bad game. Right. And people felt like all these other narrative threads were a hindrance to the movie because it made it confusing.

But now you look at how well Star Wars is integrating all this stuff. Yeah, right. It was an early attempt at something that is now much more commonplace. Which is a thing, you know? I mean, that was a big thing with Georgie Porgie with like I mean his you know. I wonder what he thinks of the Matrix movies. I'd be fascinated to hear.

But you know like we talked about with the off reference J.D. Amato who was our guest on the digital filmmaking episode for Attack the Clones about how it's like this doesn't work but he needed to fall on his sword to allow other people to run with this. You know which know which is a thing i think peter jackson did with the high frame rate stuff where it's like those movies look horrific horrific the hobbit uh

prequels the hobbit trilogy i only saw one of them in the high frame rate and it was like literally by mistake i think it's because i went to a press screening and like that's what it was in and like i just don't know what anyone was thinking with that like I don't know it was disastrous but also I mean Jackson's been pretty up front on The Hobbit about like I was making the plane in the air I had no idea what was going on and he fell on the sword for everyone else like he died

for our sins but now the new Ang Lee movie is supposed to look amazing and fucking Cameron's doing all the Avatar movies in like fucking 4DX 5 billion frames per second. I get your point. It's like, you know, hey, you know, you got to walk before you can run or whatever. And it's like, you know, they tried to run and it didn't totally work.

But like at least it laid the groundwork. The Wachowskis are big thinkers in every sense, you know. I mean, they're big thinkers and they're deep thinkers. And this is a movie with a lot of ideas. And they're not just the ideas within the body of the film, but the ideas in the making of the film. Sure, but there are a lot of ideas in the body of the film. Perhaps too many. I will admit. I see this opening weekend. Yeah, me too. And I walk out and my reaction is well, I think I don't get it yet

because I haven't seen the third one. Yeah, my reaction was angry and really, I and like really i was like that was bad i didn't like it i was deaf i was definite about that but i did have that like inkling where it's like well you know it's part of two and like maybe the second one will sort of bring it all into because the film has one of the worst endings oh it's a film like this could have absolutely horrific you know and obviously like a lot of these films have this troubling attack. The Clones kind of has this problem. You know, a lot of the middle movies where it's like, okay,

you know, there's more coming. Yeah. But even on that, like, the ending is downright confusing if you've just seen the movie where you're like, who's that again? Like, you don't know. Well, that whole thing. Yeah, but Back to the Future 2, you have to say, Back to the Future 2 does nail that one thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The ending of Back to the Future 2 is like... Yeah say, Back to the Future 2 does nail that one thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The ending of Back to the Future 2 is like... Yeah, it's decent. Yeah. Dece. Yeah, but I was disappointed. I didn't hate it. I think I tried to convince myself I liked it more than I did. Because A, I was like, well, I'm stupid.

I'm 14. This movie's throwing a lot of ideas out. I think I don't get it. Yeah. So I was like, A, I might need to see it a couple more times and read some books to understand what the fuck they're talking about. And B, it might be that when I see three and I see the big thing they're going for,

it makes sense. And the analogy I threw out to my friend at the time, I remember, was like, I feel like this movie threw a bunch of balls up in the air and the question right now is, did the third one catch them? I think our age difference, which we talked about in the last episode. 14, 17. when i saw the matrix in 13 i was so impressionable and so excited and so it was perfect for me at the time and when i saw reloaded at 17 i was like getting a little

cynical and like kind of contrarian and so i was the perfect age to hate that movie to just be like fuck them like they blew it yeah I love The Matrix and this sucked. And I mean, this is like a big memory for me. And they've since blown their sort of like reputation in this way. The Angelica Theater in New York, which was famous for being sort of like the big first art house cinema, the sort of vanguard of like the New York. Art house multiplex. Art house multiplexes, right? It's like seven screens or whatever.

Yeah. And it's one of the worst theaters I've ever attended. Absolutely one of the worst theaters I've ever been to in the entire world. If the pavilion didn't exist, it would be grand champion of worst theater in New York City. But their programming and their location was really important. Of course. So it still gets grandfathered in, but it's objectively an awful place to see them. It's the train.

It's the train. It's the train. You can hear the trains. You can hear the F train running underneath. Every movie theater is basically this very narrow corridor. And it's like, if you're not sitting in the right seat and you're behind the wrong person, goodbye, enjoyable experience.

No chance. The seats are really stiff and uncomfortable. Yeah, they're terrible seats. There's one theater where they routinely forget to close the doors before the movie starts and you have to get up and close the damn doors yourself. That little one nicks the escalator. All the screens are in a basement and the basement

is directly above the train. Anyway. And the floor is made of tissue paper. What's the point about the Angelica, though? Also, three times at the Angelica,

I have seen them play the wrong movie. Fair, fair. Totally fair. And one time it was the fountain. They played the right movie and then twice

over the course of one film's running time, the projector burned through the film. Hey, man, that's just Darren Aronofsky's hot filmmaking. Just, you know, setting a projector on fire. Yeah, he was coming in hot.

Okay, what's your point about The Angelica? You didn't see this at The Angelica. The Angelica fucking played The Matrix Reloaded. So you're saying it was like, it was such a hot movie, like, on every sphere and every quadrant that even the indie picture house was like, we're going to have The Matrix Reloaded. They've since lost their integrity. And the entire reason The Angelica existed in the first place was like, we're going to play the movies reloaded. They've since lost their integrity. And the entire reason the Angelica existed in the first place was like, we're going to play the movies

that other theaters won't play. Of course. The best films, right? Yeah. I mean, that was the idea. Well, now it's like there's these indie laws or whatever. And the Angelica gets half the indie movies and the Landmark gets the other half.

And then there's IFC. And you're like, please God, can it get... Yeah, and then there's IFC and the Film Forum, which get kind of the leftovers. Yeah. But the Angelica at the time was the one. And so it's like, they're not going to play Blockbuster because it's already playing in a bunch of screens.

They were just like, give me that money. Well, it was also like, we respect this movie. Fair enough. Like they also recently fucking did a run of Entourage. So they've now like lost whatever they had going for them. They did Entourage for a month and I tweet at them so angrily because they fucking like kick Slow West off their screens after five days to play Entourage for a month. But the Matrix Reloaded,

it was like a big cultural thing where it was like even the art house theaters are like let's do this. So what's your point? So here's the challenge I throw to you. Sure. I had not seen it since then. I saw it maybe two or three times in theater when it came out. Yeah. Because I wanted to convince myself to like it. I only saw it the one time. Right? I was like fuck, I gotta like this. And I still thought

I kinda liked it. Yeah. I disliked Revolution so much, I wrote both of them off. I haven't seen either since they came out. We've been friends for a while now. And I've talked about Revolutions, but go ahead. You've told me-

When I saw Revolutions in theaters, I was furious. As was I, yeah. I was less furious on this one, but we were both furious at Revolution. By the end of Revolutions, it was like, well, all right then. No hope now. They they blew it official you know the the most uh representational thing i

can say is that i had a shelf of matrix reloaded toys even though i was like mixed on the movie but what's your challenge i get it and then after i saw revolutions i sold them i was like i don't want these anymore okay so what's your challenge i I need you to explain to me why this movie's good. Okay, well that's the challenge. Because you've been saying this forever and I've been so excited to re-watch it and come around to your point of view. Yeah, right, right. And I, you know, I'm older. You're an old man now.

I don't know if I'm wiser, but I'm less stupid than I used to be, right? Yeah. And I, you know, tried to view it through the prism of everything you said to me and I really I would have loved nothing more than to walk out of this viewing and my fucking apartment and go, David's right. It's a masterpiece. But instead. I don't know.

I don't even fucking know what to make of this movie. Did you dislike it, would you say, as much as when you were a teenager? Or like, what was you thinking? Well, I think at that. Forget me. Yeah, I think at that time I was trying to convince myself that I liked it. No, but now. What was you thinking now?

No, I was like, I respect it. I don't think it's very good. That's a fair call. But I kind of appreciate it without enjoying it at all. My opinion on this movie is very much like, as a commercial piece of art, it is largely a failure. Oh, it's a failure. It has some decent action, especially at the end there. Yeah.

The freeway chase, especially. I think that chase is great, and I think the one in the French mansion is pretty solid. It's pretty solid, too. I think the Agent Smith fight is there. Yeah. The freeway chase. I think that chase is great and I think the one in the French mansion is pretty solid. It's pretty solid too. I think the Agent Smith fight is horrific. Yeah. Well it's you know

it's kind of the same as the Attack of the Clones thing. It's the Yoda fight which at the time everyone thought was great. And I can tell you a little bit about you know that was where

they were like we're going to do a bullet time thing but with a hundred people and like midway through filming basically Don Gaeta who's the visual effects guy is like that's literally

we've decided that's actually impossible to do. We can't do it. So they started doing you know they just CGI'd. Yeah and it looks like garbage. Yeah and like

they invented the virtual cinematography techniques that now are like fucking you make a whole movie using those. Like the Jungle Book is 100% that technology.

Like literally there's no cameras in that movie basically. Once again they died for our sins. Totally. But, I mean, like, that fight is a disaster to look at, but also kind of a plot disaster. Like, none of it, like, you're watching it and you're just like, why is this happening? Like, what story purpose does this serve?

Like, what is this? What is this? Yeah. I guess it just serves the purpose that, like, now you know Agent Smith can make lots of himself. Yeah, yeah. I mean, okay. Okay, I guess. So, you know, as a 14-year-old, I was looking for a sequel to The Matrix.

That made me feel the way The Matrix did, right? Yeah, and it's a good question. What did we want this movie to be? I think that's a fair question, right? I was trying to watch this and figure that out. I was trying to think, what was I expecting out of this film? Because I look at the trailers and they get me excited, and I still don't know what I think it's promising yeah and I realized I sat down that theater to imagine what it could have been like in a more sort of nominally like uh commercial

sequel I think I sat down the theater and had no idea what I actually wanted I wanted to be as surprised as I was watching the matrix the first hard to do that's the thing right you know I mean that's what's tough is it's not just like, oh, the Matrix is really good. You see something like Guardians of the Galaxy and you're like, good, make a sequel. Yeah, just like can I have more of these guys piling around. Fun characters, they joke, they fight aliens. Good. Easy to make a sequel. I don't need the

sequel to explain the world of Guardians of the Galaxy in extreme depth. I don't need bigger picture mythology. I need like, there's a couple of villains, there's a MacGuffin and then at the end there's a big fight but you know I get it. It's not going to be fucking Shakespeare over here. Joking some pop songs and it's like

I don't know if the movie's going to work but I know there's a clear road map that a six year old could tell you is what Guardians of the Galaxy 2 should be. In basketball is when you're drafting players. No it's okay. It's very brief. Like in drafting? Yes, but basketball. Can you put it in that

in those terms? Well, sure, in football. It's probably similar in football. You know, you talk about a player's ceiling when you're drafting them, right? So it's like you see a player in college and you might say, he's good right now. He's probably gonna just be this. You know? Yeah. He'll be good. And then you see another player and you're like, look, I get

that he's rough around the edges but we know from like doing this for years that he's got the kind of skills that if you develop them right he could be a megastar sure so like the ceiling is very high but it's a more high risk thing so that's kind of what the matrix is right like a sequel to the matrix is a high ceiling you could make something

incredible yeah like talk about a world where you can do anything yeah Guardians of the Galaxy you know you know what you're going to get. That sums it up, right? The little noises I just made? Yes. A hundred percent. Yeah.

But something. Yeah. I don't know. With this, you just go like, I don't even know what the paradigm shifted so much in the wake of this movie that I don't know what I want out of it. And it's also this weird like you can't go home again thing where the Matrix is a hero's journey.

It's someone coming to their position. It's a new character entering into the world. Yeah. Right? You know what this movie is? It's like a total subversion

of the hero's journey. Man, that's why it's so good. Okay, so- I would have- All right, I think I know what I wanted or what I would have done maybe. Your experience, I believe,

was also seeing this at the time but you did not rewatch it, you told me. I did not. Yeah, no. I didn't have time. So Ben, your experience, I believe, was also seeing this at the time, but you did not rewatch it, you told me. I did not. Yeah, no. I didn't have time. You didn't watch it? Okay, gotcha. We're doing these episodes very close together,

and I don't think we can really reasonably expect Ben to have to watch everything. We're doing three in a row, yeah. Oh, so anyway, so yeah, I mean, I left, and I was just like, those were a lot of keys. That was my takeaway. Now, Ben, you like size. You like size.

I do. Do you like quantity or is that less important to you? Because it's a lot of keys. When it's an impressive amount of keys, I'm on board. So did you find the key maker's set of keys to be an impressive amount of keys? Oh, yeah. It's a lot of keys. I was like, that was a lot of keys.

I think he has two layers of clothes that are covered in keys. He's got like an outer and inner vest. Can I ask a very serious question? Can I ask a very serious question? Yes, you can. Has Ben become our finest living film critic? Look, what if it was like USA Today and there's like a picture of Ben leaning against his fist and it's just like the Matrix reloaded and it's just like, there's a picture of Ben leaning against his fist and it's just

the Matrix Reloaded and it's just like, those were a lot of keys. And it's on the front page of USA. And Variety just lost three critics, right? Those sure were a lot of keys. Justin Chang just left Variety. You should put it in there. Congratulations, Justin Chang. Yeah.

No, that was... Thank you, Ben. Thank you, Ben. You're welcome, guys. So this movie is now 13 years old, but that, that's what's lodged in the memory palace. Ben has the best brain in the universe. Me and Ben had a 20-minute discussion about smoking weed just before we started recording. Well, because let's, you know, call it out right now.

You know what day it is, gents? When we're recording this, You're hearing this later? 421, baby. You know what that means? You smoke a doobie plus one. One more toke, bro. All right. I haven't smoked weed in nine years because it gives me panic.

Yeah, it's terrible. But to go back, that was my takeaway. That's what I've retained is the key statement. But thinking about it now, I would have maybe liked to have seen. To add to that. Yeah. I think I would have maybe gone in the direction of a time travel. Add that to the story.

Definitely what this story is. It's another complicated interface. Make it have now time travel built into it too. Oh, boy. That would have been great. That's an interesting point because The Matrix is a computer program, right? have now time travel built into it too. Oh boy. That would have been great. You know that's an interesting point because the Matrix is a computer program right? What if you could go into the Wayback

machine basically? It's basically just the internet. What if they made like a crappy Men in Black 3 style just like 60s where everyone's a hippie? That would be the worst movie ever made. And it's like the program is like you know like 16 bit you. And it's like the program is like, you know, like 16-bit, you know?

Oh, that would be great if they all looked like Mario. Yeah. Oh, my God. We just fixed the Matrix sequel. Wow, fixed the glitch in the Matrix. Agent Smith is shooting. He's fighting non-protesters. Okay.

Okay. So, Griff, do you have something you want to say say or should we get into the plot of this movie? Yeah, I want to get into this. So this is just what I'm trying to set up for you to sell me. You want me to try and sell you on that this is a good movie. I struggled this entire time to watch it and try to find a viewing of it where I could love what it's doing. And I've dropped all expectations of it functioning as like a Matrix sequel that a 14 year old boy would want. Yeah. Which is like

Or functioning as an even vaguely traditional piece of Hollywood storytelling Right. Now you know I love what I perceive to be like transgressive acts within the studio system. Absolutely. Right. When I see these films. Which to me this is a classic example. Right. Right. So that's why I was so primed with you throwing that interpretation out to me

to see what you saw and I just you've never explained to me exactly in great detail what is you see i'll try i'll try because i was always like i want to wait and see i want to wait and see if i see it but like uh you know i mean we talk a lot about iron man 3 which is a movie that a lot of people hate and you and i both see is fucking a masterpiece it's a movie it's the best christmas movie it's about you know about personal redemption and the sort of rock bottom moment where you realize what's important in your life. It's like Id fighting ego and it's iconography. The idea

becoming bigger than the man and all this stuff. I think it's brilliant. And it's also like an 80s caper comedy which is like exactly what it needed to be. Everything about it is great. And I get why people who hate it hate it even though those people are stupid because it's like... I literally don't get why people hate that movie. It genuinely confuses me.

It's like slapping the hand of people saying like, you think you want this, you don't want this. This is what we're doing instead. You know, it is like a transgressive act within the Marvel Cinematic Universe. This, I just, I can't figure it out other than like, oh, there are a lot of cool ideas in this movie. And this movie just feels like throwing three ideas out at us per minute. Sure, okay. Whether it's a philosophical concept, whether it's a visual idea,

whether it's a deepening of the world, a new character, you know? Yeah. It's just like elements, elements, elements, elements. And it feels to me like, I watched this movie, and my big complaint is, I wish they hadn't gone,

let's make two and three, and let's make it a self-enclosed trilogy and this is a clear story we're telling. I wish they had gone, okay, we have ideas for 20 more Matrix movies, let's just keep making them. Yeah, no, that's not what they thought and I think they were right in doing what they did. Okay, so please explain this to me. I think much like the Pirates of the Caribbean sequels. Which I don't like. I don't like as much as this. I like At World's End is the only one I like. At World's End is much better than the second one for sure.

Much better than the first one, I think. I don't like the first one. Oh, I think the first one's fun. I mean, fun. But anyway, much like those movies, which were also made together and released close together. Right, followed this model. The writers, I think, sat down and they had a really big philosophical, like a lot of concepts that they mapped out and then they forgot to like make it make any sense like you know like if that makes sense like yeah it's

something you have to like almost like primary you have to like sit down and like map it all out and be like oh i now see what's going on but just watching the movie once is not enough this is a movie that feels like you need a map to watch it absolutely Absolutely. And that's why I think people are too harsh on movies like The Force Awakens or something, which are like, or the Marvel movies, which are like really successful pieces of commercial,

commercial propulsive storytelling. Yes. About really like big, complicated worlds. It's like, they're like, oh, it felt pandering and easy.

And it's like, dude, dude, if they made the other movie, you'd probably hate it too. Cause it would be really hard to understand. Yeah. Well, and I, you'd probably hate it too, because it would be really hard to understand. Yeah. Well, and I, you know, I thought about Force Awakens in relation to this movie a couple times, right?

Yeah, sure. And there's the thing where, like, you know, I mean, everyone has their fucking complaints about Force Awakens, and everyone, the boosters, and some people think it's perfect, and some people think it's terrible, and the people in the middle are the ones who are the quietest, right? Yeah, sure. The silent majority. Right. Whatever you want to say, like, you know, pros or cons,

fucking, you know, throw in the Max Landis, Mary Sue argument to the garbage where it belongs. It is like you look at that movie and, like, Rey wants to find her parents. Sure. It's a very simple, very, very simple thing that everyone can grasp onto. Finn wants to become a hero

and wants everyone to think that he's a hero. And the entire film, you know those are... He wants a purpose. Those are the guiding principles of those two characters. Rey wants to figure out, find where she belongs,

and Finn wants to earn his place. So let's move over to The Matrix Reloaded. I don't know what any of these characters want to do. Okay. So that's fair. Okay, so here are...

And I don't demand that a movie function in that way for me. So I would say, one thing to say about these two movies is that I think that their biggest failure

is to the character of Trinity who's very sidelined to me. Yeah, who they blow it with her. And I think one of the reasons they blow it with her is because they got a lot of shit to do and they literally, I mean because Morpheus also gets totally sidelined you may not remember, but in the Matrix Revolutions his entire arc is sitting in a chair.

Yeah, I do remember. Just looking bummed out. Because at the end of Reloaded, it's all over for him. Yeah. I remember that because the only action figure I bought from Revolutions was... Is him sitting in a chair? Yeah, it was literally just... In his purple shirt?

Yeah, and you couldn't pose it. It was just like him in a chair. Just defeated. I just would pretend it was from the first movie because it looked like him with the pills. Yes. Yes. But even like even like you know you look i was about to say like well so the main characters arcs of neo you know morpheus and trinity and i was like trinity really doesn't have one yeah you know she's the most underserved here whereas in the first film i think all three of them have strong absolutely and i think trinity's is still maybe the weakest in terms of like agreed she's very beholden to a guy and like it's very much about just her feelings for said guy but

you know at least she's a much she's a great character that you love to watch and it's become a thing i think tasha robinson's the one who coined the the trinity syndrome yeah which is like the female lead in these kinds of movies where she's like the badass one totally whose main driving force is she's angry that she wasn't the chosen one. Fair. Like sort of like what they do in the Lego movie, for example. Right, is what they're parodying, you know, and some other films like that. I mean, and Rey is a good subversion of that because she is the one. Sure.

She's not the one who wants to be the one. She's the one who finds out that she was chosen. The movie is kind of flipping the script very consciously. Yeah, which is... Which is great. Cool. Great. So let's talk about the Matrix reload.

Oh, no, but the thing I was going to say is that Morpheus in the first movie is interesting because he's introduced to us as Laurence Fishburne, all this presence, very stoic, very still. The deliverer of knowledge. And then there's the moment where the Oracle in that speech sort of explains to him like, poor Morpheus. He doesn't know what he's talking about. And the next time you see Morpheus and I don't know if

Laurence Fishburne consciously factored this into his performance or if it's just hard to imagine this amazing thing that just happens in movies because of fucking as a medium but you look at Morpheus and suddenly he looks pathetic no I mean it's a brilliant reversal on the part of the movie right absolutely because it's right around halfway

in this guy's so strong minded he still sticks to his principles and now we know as an audience that he's wrong. And you watch him in that scene that I think you're talking about, which is basically where he sacrifices himself to save Neo, where he's taking on Agent Smith. He, like, crashes out of the wall. Yeah. And instead of you being like, yeah, you're like, oh, Jesus, like, fuck.

You feel really bad for him. And he goes from being, like, the, you know, the wise mentor character who's sort of, like, you know, imperceptible, you know. To, you know, a somewhat demented kind of evangelical, you know, like a fanatic. And a pitiable character and one you're really like emotionally invested in making sure he doesn't die because it feels like such a threat. In this movie, I think he's just so fucking stoic the whole time. Well, he has the big speech. Right.

Machines! And then he's got, like, fucking, like, three big action sequences that felt like- Yeah, very cool action sequences. Lawrence Fishburne requesting, like, hey, I'd love to do a thing with a gun and a knife. No, I mean, like, or maybe just them thinking, like, hey, like, we're going to have cool action scenes. Don't worry, Morpheus, you're going to do X, Y, and Z. Like, Trinity, you're going to do this. You're going to fly off a motorcycle and shoot it into a power plant or whatever, you know.

But it's a little bit- But the character beat, look, the character beat with Morpheus is basically like he's, like faith has been affirmed. Neo is the one, at least to him, it's like this is absolute. Look at him, he's flying around.

He's like nothing we've ever seen before. And so when all this news is being presented to him like the machines are about to destroy zion like the world might be ending he's just like yep great great that's what's supposed to happen okay so here's what bums me out about that right it's it's the robocop problem for me which is robocop is like my fourth favorite movie of all time uh-huh um i have never been able to watch roboc 2. I've tried so many times to watch the first 20 minutes and I get so frustrated and bummed out I can't make it through. And most films I love that much

I'll watch the sequel even if I hate it. Okay, but what's your point? The problem is the end of RoboCop 1, he becomes Murphy. He like settles it. Sure, right. But the movie has to, you mean the sequel has to undo that. And then RoboCop 2 opens up and he's got the helmet back on, he's talking and walking like a robot and he's fucking RoboCop again. I mean, you would agree

with me maybe, objectively, RoboCop 2, a worse sequel than The Matrix Reloaded. No question. Right. No question. Directed by Irvin Kershner, who did... Directed by Frank Miller, yeah. The superior Empire Strikes Back. But, but, there's a bit of that problem for me where it's like the arc of

Morpheus, and I understand that arc is more how the audience changes their relationship to him than how he changes yeah it's like he goes from being this wise all-knowing figure of just like such moral and and philosophical integrity yeah right and certitude to then being this like is he pathetic somewhat of a somewhat of a you know uh he's got blinkered like yes yeah, and then because Neo does end up being the one, and when that happens at the end of the first movie, there's, you know, it's somewhat emotional when Morpheus is like

reaffirmed in his beliefs, right? He was correct. It worked. And then we watch this movie, and now he just knows that he's right, and it's like... Yeah, but does he? Because this is the thing... So the reversal of the movie is kind of the same, which is something you could criticize it for. You know, the reversal of the movie is like at the end of the movie.

Should we talk about the plot of the movie, though? I feel like. I mean, I feel like the plot is like it's just a series of. The plot is. Yeah, it's very video gaming. Yes. To its discredit. Like, you know, it's a lot of hunt and find.

We need to go get the thing from the guy. Well, it's like objective based, but it's objective based in which it's like, okay, you have to go through these hallways and kill all these guys. And then when you get to the end of there, there's a cut scene. And then the cut scene is like four minutes

of like dialogue explaining why. It's the most brilliant scene in the movie. Any of the movies, maybe. Which one are you talking about? The architect. I'm saying in general. There's a lot of that. Any of the movies, maybe. Which one are you talking about? The Architect. I'm saying in general. There's a lot of that. Like the Merovingian.

There's an action scene to get to the Merovingian. And then there's an action scene to get to the Keymaster. And the Keymaker. And then to the Architect. Right. And even a little bit

right at the beginning to get to Zion. And especially with like, you know, there's all these sub-bosses. There's like the twins. Who are these characters? Magic guys.

They look crazy. Look at them. You know, no characterization, no effort to ground them in any kind of reality of the world. It's just like, oh, there's a bunch of wackos. And it's a feeling I would get playing like a lot of like Japanese video games when I was like a kid. Where I'd be like, there's clearly a very well thought out mythology here I can't get it every time the cut scenes happen I'm a little bit lost

and then it goes back to action I'm like okay I guess I just gotta run down the hallway and shoot the guys like I don't know why I'm doing this but I understand the immediate objective so let me hold off on Morpheus's thing for a second and let's just go through the basics of the plot okay so the plot of the movie is where six months later,

Yeah. Neo and Trinity and Morpheus and what's his, what's Harold Perrineau's name? Link. Link, yeah. Are like a skeleton crew of the Nebuchadnezzar. They don't have,

Switch and Apoc and so on have not been replaced, which is sort of annoying. They say that at one point. They say that. That he hasn't recrewed. The kid says, I know you need new crew members and I'd love to

be one of them you know like so there's a reference to it but it doesn't but sometime in the last six months dozer died and link replaced dozer but they didn't replace I keep fucking confusing them tank died because Marcus Chong wanted a lot of money or whatever so they replaced him right yeah but they haven't restaffed the rest

of the team right he's married to tank and Dozer's sister. Yeah, played by Nona Gay. Her name is Z, and she was going to be played by Aaliyah. This movie had a very tortured production because two of its characters, actors, died in the middle of it. Yeah. Aaliyah and Gloria Foster, which is a bummer.

Also, and then his... I mean, Aaliyah's death was tragedy for larger reasons as well, just because she was the best. But, yeah. The sister-in-law is played by... By Laurence Fisherman's wife, by Gia Torres.

Right, right, yes. Okay, that's what I thought. It was so quick. They may not have been... I forget when they met. Interesting. They may have met on this, for all I know.

Because it is kind of funny that she's kind of there. Quick sidebar. Yeah, it is weird. Yeah, I wonder if it was... Yeah, they married in 2002, so it sounds like they might have met on this for all I know. Because it is kind of funny that she's kind of there. Hook Sidebar. Yeah, it is weird. They married in 2002, so it sounds like they might have met while they were making this movie. So good for them. Yeah, I love that. Still married.

Hook Sidebar. What happened to Nona Gay? I liked her. It's a good question. She's in Ali. She was really good in Ali. That's where she popped for me. She plays the second wife, right?

Who's the more sort of religious, devout Muslim, right? Which is my favorite chunk of the movie. I love the earlier chunk with Jada Pinkett Smith where she plays, like, the first wilder wife as well. I love Ollie. I think it's a good movie. I think it's a great movie, yeah. So she was around, but I don't know. Yeah, she didn't really

do anything. She's in XXX State of the Union. Oh, yeah, she is. And that's it. Yeah. That's like it. I don't know. She's Marvin Gaye's what? Daughter? Yeah. I always thought she was going to be really big. She's a pretty winning presence in this movie but it's not. She's gorgeous. I mean she's got an unbelievable face.

It's a pretty tiny role in this one. It's a bigger role in Revolutions. Yeah and especially because she was like tipped to take over something for Aaliyah and Aaliyah at that point she had done. She'd done Romeo Must Die and Queen of the Damned. Queen of the Damned, and Joel Silver did both of those. And it felt like he had sort of picked her... He was building her up, yeah.

As like, and now I'm going to put her in Matrix, and then she's going to be huge, and you know. So when like, Nona Gay, who was relatively unknown, got the part instead, it was like, well now she's going to be... Right. And then, yeah. You know, they may have rewritten it a little bit

to scale it back. I don't know, it doesn't matter. Okay. Anyway, so yeah, so... I do think it's important to be. And then, yeah. You know, they may have rewritten it a little bit to scale it back. I don't know. It doesn't matter. Anyway, so yeah. I do think it's important to mention, we start this movie in media res in a dream. We start it with a dream. That's replayed three times over the course of the film. That Neo is having of Trinity's death.

Trinity, like, taking on some agents in an office building, shooting out of a window. It's really beautifully shot. It's awesome. She's falling down to the ground, shooting up at an agent over her. She falls down to the ground. She gets shot, and then she crashes into a parked car. And so he's having visions of her death. Right. So that's...

You're loading the movie in a similar way to, like, Revenge of the Sith, right? You're loading this movie where Neo is worried, like, something bad is going to happen. That's his main motivation for the movie. His main motivation is how do I. What will prevent her from dying. So you've got the Nebuchadnezzar.

You got Neo. Yeah. He's the one. He can fly. That seems to be his major one power in the Matrix. He's Superman now. He's kind of Superman. He can fight agents like it's nothing.

Right. There's a scene early on where he fights two agents. And it's just like a fun action scene like there's nothing really to it and they land like a one hit on him and he goes oh upgrades like it's like oh I didn't know the technology got better but watch I'll upgrade now I can fight you I just didn't know you were at like OS 4 I can do that there's a moment a little

later where he bleeds like he is still a human being as they say but it's like you know he's like kind of he's like beating the game as they say in the world of the tick, the tick is nigh invulnerable. He can be killed, but we've never seen anyone come close. It just hasn't happened yet. Right. So

they're just doing their thing and they are confronted very early on with this news from an Animatrix movie. Yeah. That like the machines are coming, they're tunneling down, and they're gonna eat Zion. They're going to eat the city of Zion.

At this point, anyone who saw Dreamcatcher in theaters is like amped. Bam, bam, bam. That they were like, fucking $13 validated. There's no way to validate the fact that you saw Dreamcatcher in theaters, which is literally about poop monsters.

Have you seen Dreamcatcher? No. What a movie that is. Who made that? Someone good made that movie. Lawrence Kasdan. Yeah. The screenwriter of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Yeah, and The Force Awakens. Empire Strikes Back, The Force Awakens. Body Heat. I mean, to his credit, he was adapting a book by Stephen King that was about poop monsters. It's not like he added that in. Yeah, but- And you're not- They're called shit weasels in the movie.

This is real. This is a real movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It stars Morgan Freeman, Damian Lewis. Donnie Wahlberg. Donnie Wahlberg. Anyway. It's a piece of something.

Morgan Freeman also has the biggest eyebrows anyone's ever had in the history of movies. It's crazy. He looks like a walpole from Winnie the Pooh. All right. So they return to Zion. Yeah. And we see Zion, the city under the earth. Right?

Yeah. And just what you want out of a big franchise movie like this let's go see that really cool place what is it uh just a frustrating mess of bureaucracy yep it's a bummer just a bummer yeah just a huge bummer but but they have non-penetrative orgies all the time we'll get to to the orgy. The orgy, I think, is where 99% of the Matrix Reloaded audiences drops out, like drops the movie. Like they're like, I don't like this. And then obviously they just don't pick it back up. Like it's like that's where it loses.

That's the you reciting the architect's speech of the movie. Yeah. Good analogy. It's weird. People are just like, nope. I'm making the joke about it because it's the joke to make. But I actually have no problem with the orgy. Me neither. I think it's weird just like nope i'm making the joke about it because it's the joke to make but i actually have no problem with the orgy me neither i think it's good and i also like it now as sort of like a sign of what's to come of like the wachowskis were seen as these sort of like

cold didactic like nerd filmmakers and then with the sequel they're like no we're all about this sort of like unity of spirit and this free love kind of thing and we are all just weird pale little people with holes that should just all hook up in like weird androgynous fashion. Yeah. Like I love in that scene, the sex scene between Neo and Trinity, that you literally can't tell the difference between them when you cut to a wide, which is like how the sex scene is mostly shot.

Yeah. Yeah. They're just two little white things just kind of, you know. Yeah. And it's like they're really naked in that scene, but all you're seeing are their ports. Yeah. Yeah. You're just seeing all their little jack holes. But there's like a full body, like a wide shot of like their two fully naked bodies,

fully thrusting, not like obscured angles or anything. But you're not seeing like, you know, side boob. You're not seeing like under ball. You're just seeing like, I wish you saw some under ball. I'd love to see. I bet Keanu's got great balls. Of course he does. But you're seeing a bunch of them holes, you know?

Yeah, yeah. What if you saw, like, the most beautiful actor naked, and he just had the most horrifically ugly penis, and you were just like, God damn it. Can I say, this is the reason, like, you know, I aspire to be making my own films eventually. I'm, like, a big proponent of getting more dicks in film. You gonna get your dick out?

I don't want to. I mean, look, you know, the people demand it. I just, like, I would love to, any film I make, make someone show their dick. Yeah, absolutely. Just because, A, I think we need to balance it out. And B, it's like, there's something fascinating. Like, in the way that everything is fascinating when it's in a movie. Like, think about, like, how many different types of boobs you've seen just because you've seen movies.

Yeah, no, I know what you're saying. You see more boobs than you'll get to see in your own life. And in penises, it's like where men suck, and we all are like, I don't want to fucking show my... Unless you're like a jock and you slap it in someone's face, you know? This is a whole other conversation. Could I make a request? You don't want to talk about dicks for 40 minutes? It's more just... Just a really

quick request. Yeah. I'd like to see a dick, but with the gentleman attached to it crying. Yes, I'd love to see that. Because you don't see men like really, really cry while also have their penis out. I would say Jason Segel's performance in Forgetting Sarah Marshall is the closest

you get to that. And that's him. He's very much going for the fact that being naked is a very vulnerable position to be in in that movie and it works. But at the same time he's got a pretty nice big penis and you're just like, he just wants to show it off. Right, well, and it's two things. Like either it's penis as a joke, right?

Yeah. Penis as a punchline or it's like Michael Fassbender shows his dick and it's like, of course, with a dick like that, you'd show it. There's like that attitude. I appreciate that Michael Fassbender gets like legit furious

when people talk about it though. He's like, I was in a movie. It's like, it's fucking art and I took my dick out or I didn't take my dick out. It's like a scene. I would just love to see. Just to fuck you don't talk about my penis you're weirdo i'd love to see a movie what if someone in an interview was like nice vagina i saw your vagina nicole kidman in cold mountain more like hot mountain yeah that is a really good point that is a weird double standard there anyway that's one negative double standard

towards men i i just i'm all i is, and I'll leave it at this, I would love to get to see Chris Hemsworth crooked little dick. I'd love to see in a movie and be like, it's not a joke. It's not because his dick is great. And then I'd love to see Paul Giamatti's fat cock. I just want to see a diversity of cocks and be surprised at like, oh, really?

Okay, let's move on. Just because we have a lot to get through. Not because I don't enjoy this discussion. Pro-prick. More Dixon movies. But anyway, they return to Zion, and much like the Jedi Council of the Preachers. Ben's laughing really hard. No, it's good.

It's good. I'm 100% on board. I really want to communicate that. I'm making light of this thing, but I also think, let's fucking, yeah, diversity. Anyway, Matrix Reloaded. But it's a fair comparison to the Jedi jedi council shit or whatever where it's like they show up and it's like we only know morpheus he's like the leader in our eyes right at this point and they're basically just like morpheus like why are you so rebellious like why aren't

you back here to defend the city like they are the worst yeah harry lennox who's a very good actor i love him yeah uh what was he was was just in Batman versus Superman. Poor guy. You know, whatever. He's got a lot of gravitas no matter what. He's a great actor. He's like this stern general of the army. Who's now dating Niobe.

Who's now dating Morpheus's ex-girlfriend, Niobe. Jada Pinkett's man. Yeah. Which Trinity's like, Niobe used to be with Morpheus. Now she's with Locke.

And you're just like, when do people date in this movie? They fly hovercrafts around the sewers. When are they like, oh, let's get a cup of protein slop. Also, these are three of the most emotionally distant characters I've ever seen. I mean, look,

this is a movie that is emotionally reserved in every way. But these three characters in particular. You lost Joey Pants and that was a major loss. And Mouse and Switch. I mean, Switch was such a fucking goofball. She was a live wire. Oh my god. Do you remember how funny

Switch is in the first movie? Not like this. Okay. Not like this. So they show back up and to Chazka's credit, I mentioned it last week, but I want to talk about it. The Council of Elders or whatever is basically just like a like pan pangea like group of people it's like every race you can imagine cornell west is there wearing like an old mouth organ around his neck do you know cornell west does comment has a commentary track on the cornell west loves

the matrix movies and has all these fascinating thoughts on them. Yeah. You know, and there's like a bunch of other cameos loaded into this. Well, there's the main guy, Mifune, who becomes bigger in Revolutions. Yeah, you just see him very briefly. But he's like, I mean, his name's clearly referenced to Shir Mifune, who's like a great Japanese actor, and then he looks Mauryan. Like, everything's just

like so, like, mesh together, you know? Yeah, I'm trying to find who plays Mifune. I forget the... But even the orgy scene... Nathaniel Lees is his name. The thing I like about the orgy scene is it's just like all these bodies kind of look the same.

And you're talking like very different people, you know? I mean, this wide swath of ethnicities and body types and everything. But even the way it's lit, the way it's colored, the way it's art directed, their costumes, the cave itself, it's just like a mush of parts you know okay um yeah this movie's incredibly diverse without feeling like it's trying to do the united colors of benton thing

you know where it's just like look we checked off each box we were captain planet we got one of each you know it's just like here's just a bunch of people, which I like. Wish they were showing their dicks, but I'll take what I can get. But story-wise, I'll admit, things slow to a bleeding halt. Uh-huh. You've got this scene, this scene that as a teenager I hated, where Neo talks to like the counselor or whatever, the sort of political leader. Yeah. This old man.

I forget who plays him too. He's also got uh pretty bushy eyebrows that guy yeah i like anthony zerbe is his name yeah and like he has this meandering discussion in like the belly of zion with him and like midway through neo's like so what do you like what's your point he's like i have no point and he's just like what have we been listening to these guys talk for 10 minutes they literally go what's your point? I have no point. Then you shouldn't have said it. Good point.

Like, Neo responds to, I have no point, with another line, and then he goes, good point. Yeah. Like, it's like a fucking, like, Bit of Fry and Lori sketch for a second. Yeah. And, you know, there's a lot of, there is a lot of philosophical intent in that conversation. Oh, but it's the hardest to grasp onto just because it's delivered in a pretty dull way. It's really dull.

And I remember, I feel like that scene was, like that and the architect scene were the main reason I saw the film three times in theaters because I was like, if I can crack these two scenes, maybe the movie makes sense. I'll like it. You really have to listen to it. And unfortunately, much like the Lucas movies, you know, the prequels. It's hard to listen. It's hard. It's hard it's hard and uh you know the idea i think that he's saying is he's like look

machines are here like yeah we use machines like this is a symbiotic thing and like the idea of us being at war with them and this sort of like never-ending battle but like is ludicrous like that's never going to make any sense well and he says to neo like why do you feel more comfortable these machines than the other machines? And Neo goes, like, because we can control them. And he's like, you mean you can destroy them? Right. And so it's like, is control just power?

Is control feeling that you're superior? And this movie is a lot about control. Right. As is the, all the Matrix movies are about that. But, you know, the whole idea of this movie is, will Neo fulfill the prophecy? Right. Like, will he end this and, like, make it all better? But the idea of- Which Morpheus is, like, the prophecy right will he end this and like make it all better but the idea which morpheus is like committed that he will that's why morpheus isn't scared

they're like zion's supposed to be destroyed by the machines because it's like it doesn't matter neo's gonna fix it i know he will yeah the idea in their minds are telling themselves the prophecy is a a world of harmony yeah but what this guy is pointing out is like it's not harmony harmony for you is knowing that you could destroy the machines at any time harmony is dominant that's not coexisting that's just you having the power which i think is kind of interesting right and then so and then there's this you know maybe ill-advisedly long scene where morpheus gives this crazy speech which is supposed to be like this sort of sermon on the mount type like fanatical thing yeah where he's like we must not be afraid machines can you dig it and then there's like a really long dance sequence,

and then a really long sex sequence, and none of it, you know, feels very important to the story. Well, they're intercutting between Neo and Trinity fucking, which I'm way into. Like, I'm a big fan of that, and I said in the last episode, I don't believe that a couple is actually together unless they have unsimulated sex on screen, so I was a fan of that. The orgy, though that last episode I don't believe that a couple is actually together unless they have on same weight sex on screen so I was a fan of that the orgy

though is just people waving their arms around like it doesn't look like they're fucking it's like a club scene they're getting very handsy but like right you know and you see like uh Harold Perrin uh Link dancing with Nona get you know sort of grinding up on each other and you're like okay isn't this

like a sci-fi movie? You know, like they're trying to advance this big utopian kind of like, you know, massive people, you know, like that's the idea. Oh, I'm sorry. We have to talk about this one joke in the movie. Oh, the pussy joke? Yes. Pretty weird.

Pretty fucking weird. So Harold Perrineau, you know, wants to rush home to his wife and see her. Hasn't seen her in a while. They dock at Zion. Yeah. He runs into his apartment. Everyone's apartment Hasn't seen her in a while. They dock Zion. Yeah. He runs into his apartment. Everyone's apartment is basically like a submarine locker. Yep.

And he says, where's my puss? And then he's like cut off when he sees that like the sister-in-law is over and a couple kids. Yeah. The nephew and niece. So was his plan just to run in and be like, where's my pussy? Like that's his plan? Well, I don't think it was with that attitude and be like, where's my pussy? Like, that's his plan? Well, I don't think it was with that attitude.

I think it was, where's my pussy? But it's still a weird thing to say because he's saying it in a very cheery way. He's saying it like he's fucking, like, you know, like it's a leave it to beaver, like, style, like, entrance into the home. Very much, very much. And that's why I thought a cat was going to appear. Me too. It felt like that was the misdirect. It almost feels like his, like, cute pet name for her, like Honey or Sweetie, is Pussy.

But that can't be the case. Yeah, that's pretty reductive to make. It's maybe the one joke in the whole movie. Yeah. Is there another joke in this movie? Yeah, I don't think there's another joke in them. There's maybe one other where Trinity says something like, that's difficult. She has a few times where she like-

That'll leave a mark. Yeah, that'll leave a mark. That's gotta hurt. Alright, let's move forward. You don't see that every day. So the ship... He's standing right behind me, isn't he? The number one worst joke in the world. The number one worst joke in the world. Yeah.

So, um, Neo, while they're there, Neo gets a message from the Oracle, so they have to, like, go back into the Matrix. And I'm getting excited, because Oracle, we know, is my favorite part of the film,

of the first movie. So they plug back in, they fly out and they plug back into the Matrix, and he meets a character called Seraph, who is a Chinese action star, Colin Chu. Yeah. I think he's Taiwanese, technically. He's drinking tea.

This was a part that they offered to Michelle Yeoh, and she was going to play it, and then, like, something scheduling happened, so she couldn't do it. And then they offered it to Jet Li, and Jet Li said no. To his credit, it's not a major role. Why would either of them do this?

Michelle Yeoh was going to do it. I'm surprised. The reason they would do it is because it's The Matrix, I think. Yeah. Just, like, a hot franchise. But it's just, like, this is such an unnecessary character. Well, this is where I start loving the movie and I think everyone else starts. So they have a fight.

They have a martial arts fight. They like say hello. Hey, how you doing? I'm okay. How's the weather? Not bad. I'm sorry I have to do this, but like five minute fight sequence. And Neo's like-

Which I don't at this point know what the fuck is going on, who this guy is, why they're fighting. And then Neo, they stop and he's like, great, you are the one. Just needed to check, basically. Like, you don't really know someone until you fight them. And then Neo, speaking for the entire audience, goes like, who the fuck are you? And he goes like, I protect she who is most important. And the door opens and it's the fucking Oracle.

Now, this is what I love about this movie. This movie is about what it would be like to interact with literal computer programs. That is why this is a masterpiece. No other movie has done this or will ever do it again because it's crazy. Seraph, and if you look into it, it's literally... He's like an ad blocker software? He is a login screen.

That is literally... He is the personification of what is called a challenge handshake authentication protocol, which is basically a password. I can't believe this is already working for me. My judgment of the movie just went up 20%. You might get me to think this is a masterpiece by the end of the episode.

I literally just went up 20%. Because in the movie, you hear him say, like, you don't know someone until you've fought them. And you'd think, like, that's actually the stupidest thing I ever heard. Yeah, that's what I thought. You have to remember, he's not a person.

He's a computer program, as is everyone. He's a box asking you to type in a password. And then we have what is- Jesus Christ. Oh, fuck. You're going to convince me. Oh, my God.

Then Seraph leads him to the- Oh. Leads him to the Oracle, played by Gloria Foster, and it seems- Sorry. He leads him to the Oracle, played by Gloria Foster, and the seems sorry he leads into the Oracle playing like Gloria Foster

in the one scene I think they got with her like a very long scene yes where she can still play the Oracle I think she was pretty sick she died of I think of diabetes complications from diabetes

which is sad yeah and I was gonna say that like a thing I miss from her scene in the Matrix oh in the Matrix is that there's like

a lot of business happening like I like that all the that she's sort of cooking and like you know smoking the profound stuff she's saying is like a second afterthought after like i'm smoking first i'm making cookies second and then i'm talking to you she's sitting on a bench and it may have been physically all that they could have that's what i'm saying so i can't hold it against no i think that they were really limited i've heard i've read stories about like

she was still doing broadway and was literally a physical wreck at the end of nights and stuff like that. The only reason why I'm sifting through the sand this much on this scene and getting this nitpicky is just because... It's the second most important scene in the movie. And I love the Oracle and I love that performance so much that

I hate that this scene doesn't have the same juice that it does in the first movie. But even if it was just literally she's on the bench and she's feeding pigeons more actively. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? No, I totally get what you're saying. I miss the Oracle doing something else and having Neo be over the shoulder. Now, I would say this is the scene, and I agree with what you're saying.

It's a good point. She's very good in this, but it's too focused. It's too exposition-y. It's an exposition-y scene, and it's a fair scene to She's very good in this but it's like too focused. It's too expositiony. It's an expositiony scene and it's a fair scene to kind of drop the movie if you haven't already dropped it because it's basically her saying

if you really listen to her because what it sounds like is she's just saying a bunch of circular shit. You know, it's like the question is what is the question? It's a lot of like

the Sphinx and Mystery Men you know, to go left you must first go right. Sure. But what she says is basically like if you haven't figured it out already, and Neo has, is, like, I am a computer program. That's what I am.

Right. You know, and, you know, I'm not some mystical seer or whatever. I'm just built into the code of the Matrix. Yeah. And, like, I am as much a part of this as anyone else. And, like, the prophecy that I deliver, you know, that's my purpose. That's what I'm here to do. I'm not as special as you think I am.

Right. But at the same time, I am, and she's mostly trying to nudge him, like, you gotta figure this stuff out for yourself. Like, I usually exist to just guide the one in a particular path, but this time, not so much. I'm not special because I'm just doing

what I was designed to do, but I'm special because... i've decided maybe to not and and also i was designed explicitly to do this so i have a better sense of this than anyone else the point of the article is the architect explains more she was literally the program designed to make the matrix work because the architect like first built a paradise matrix that didn't work he says that like it was a perfect world and you guys rejected it then he made like a scary matrix that didn't work which is like that like it was a perfect world and you guys rejected it. Then he made like a scary Matrix that didn't work, which is like where the Merovingian and all those guys are supposed to come from.

They're all like monsters. Yeah. And then so he's like, so we needed to create like a program that investigated, you know, like what humans actually behave like, which is why there is this

eternal mother figure basically. Like that's what the Oracle is. You're making this sound so cool. That's the problem with the movie and I will 100% admit it is is if you think about it enough, the world's so great, but the movie struggles to communicate this. Yeah, because I wasn't having a lot of fun watching this. No, and I get that.

Yeah. I get it. But basically, the Oracle is like, I get that you're freaked out about Trinity. I know you've got the sight. You're seeing bad things. Yeah. And I can only do so much with that. But here I am.

Like, you can trust me or not trust me. Yeah. And then there's the burly brawl, the fight with the hundred smiths. Yeah, so here's what happened during this fight scene. I ate a bag of pretzels because I didn't give a shit. It's so long. I was like, I remember being like, this is the hyped up thing. I can't wait to see how this fight holds up. It was a huge part of the trailer. Huge part. Two punches in, I was like, let me being like, this is the hyped up thing. I can't wait to see how this fight holds up.

It was a huge part of the trailer. Huge part. Two punches in, I was like, let me get those pretzels out of my backpack. And I just ate the whole bag. And then it was, I was done with the pretzels and the fight was still going on. It is ambition defined, this fight. Yeah. No doubt about it.

They're like, let's try to make as big a fight as we can. You know, we should say concurrently to all this, Smith is back. Played by Hugo Weaving. Right. And he's cloning himself. He'll jam his fist into someone and make another Smith. They become a Smith. So he's turned into a virulent thing.

He's turned into a computer virus, basically. And he's an outlaw now. I mean, he's not one of the agents. He's not an agent. He delivers his earpiece to Neo at the beginning of the movie. And so his journey is parallel to Neo's. And he implies to them, we're tied together. You're here to fix it, and I'm here to ruin it.

Do you think this is a good idea to have Smith come back? You know, I think that it's one of the things that kind of trips up the logic of the movie at times. Because it's like, the movie is so crucially about like Neo being a little different from all the other ones. Yeah. And like, it's like, well, then isn't Smith too? Right, and the parallel shadow thing that they try to throw onto them in this one, especially the next one.

It's kind of a Voldemort thing where it's like you're in me and I'm in you. It feels simultaneously undercooked and forced. Yeah, yeah. And I also think it's like, I understand it's like, okay, we hit gold in this first movie. We wrote this part that could have just been

like a fucking piece of stale bread as proven by how shitty the other agents are. No, I understand it's like okay we hit gold in this first movie we wrote this part that could have just been like a fucking piece of stale bread as proven by how shitty the other agents are no I get it yeah and Hugo Weaving comes in we need to bring Hugo back right so which is fair and like you know the movie needs a villain but I also and who are you gonna have otherwise you know Neil beating him is so triumphant in the first movie

right totally and I understand that death is like a loose concept in this film and you and I had an argument yesterday about how much he's a program he's a computer program like i hate dead characters coming back to life in movies i'm like really against that yeah but i also think in this movie like the whole point in the first movie is that neo dies and comes back to life yeah the fucking matrix we're playing fast and loose he's a bunch of programming i don't care but i also think like when he comes back it's a bit of like been there done that which leads to them having to make a hundred agent smiths

because it's like okay how do you make agent smith more so i mean i agree with you and that's why this the scene's a flop the action scene and there's this fundamental like um self-defeating thing in having agent smith be the rogue agent because it's like well what we like about him is that he's so straight-laced and so monotonous, and now if he's like the spurned guy, and he's still like, Mr. Anderson, you made me get fired. I don't have a job. He's different. He's different.

His voice is different. His look is a little different, and I think the idea is he's evolving. If Agent Smith showed up, and he had a fucking beard, and his tie was loose, and he was like, Mr. Anderson, I've been going through a rough time lately. My wife left me. You know I mean if it was like real Rogue but it's like he's a little

different but it does just feel like well you're trying to replicate the magic but we already have seen Neo beat him. We already know the whole arc. Like I feel like if he wasn't in it I would have been bummed out that he wasn't in it and then when he's in it I'm like I wish they could have found something new. Well, they blow it with this scene.

We got to move forward. It's an action scene. Like we said, they just don't have the technology for it. And it just sort of turns into CGI. Very obvious. They have Neo wearing a cassock, like a floor-length cape, which is hard to animate. You know, like hard to make that look real. And then after a 10-minute fight, the ending is that he look real. Yep, it looks pretty rubbery. And then after a 10 minute fight, the ending

is that he flies away. Like he doesn't even beat anybody. Like is this longer than the Roddy Roddy Piper fight in They Live? It might be. I think so. I think so. I'll say I'll give this fight scene like a 2. Ben liked that. 2 out of 10? I give it 2 out of 10. I give the pretzels like a 7.

I kept them in my backpack for a while so they were a little like smushed. I like a full pretzel rather for a while, so they were a little smushed. I like a full pretzel rather than a fragment, but they tasted pretty good. They were seven, okay. They were handovers, yeah. So then the next episode of this movie is that they go to the Merovingian, who is, the Oracle says you have to go to the Merovingian and get the key maker. He's being held prisoner, and he's like a program that can get you anywhere. And he'll get you to the source, which is like where you can fix the matrix can i sidebar for a second my mom is french she

was raised french in france uh french culture is very important to her she growing up was constantly trying to get me to get invested in like a french heritage and french art and whatever it was yeah the fact that i don't speak is like her biggest shame in her life. You talked about this, yeah. Right. So she was not a huge fan of mainstream American cinema. Whenever there was any big studio film that had any element of French culture in it, I would run back to tell my mom to sell her as like, we could bond over this thing. Okay, so you told her about the fact that there's a French person called the Merovingian? I was so amped that I was like, Mom, The Matrix has two French characters in it. You got two French actors doing French shit.

Yeah. And like at the time I was just. Like by Lambert Wilson. I convinced myself that my mom would have loved it because of these French characters. But she didn't even see it. She didn't even see it. And then I watched it today. I was like, these are the most insulting French characters.

They are. I mean, if they were Italian, they would be wearing Chef Boyardee hats. They're like Pepe Le Pew level. He is especially. She is more. Monica Bellucci plays Persephone, who's like his wife. She's more of just like a sex pot.

Like we talked about that in Bound 2. Like she's just there to be sexy. There's that part where he says like, I love cursing in French. And then he literally just says like the French equivalent of like, fuck, shit, dick, cop, butthole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He does.

But doesn't like this French, like, oh, zut à la mer. The Merovingians are like an ancient dynasty in France from the 5th century, like a long time ago. And that's the idea of the Merovingian in the movie is he's like a beta program. Okay, so is that... Yeah, I need you to give me these analogs.

So he's just supposed to be like MS-DOS or whatever? He's from the second Matrix. It's never made totally clear, even in the expanded world of the Matrix, but he's from the second Matrix. He is from the Matrix that was full of monsters. The Matrix that was like some sort of nightmarish fantasy world. And he was exiled but not deleted, and he maintains exile, which is where programs run

away to not be deleted when they are replaced or overwritten or whatever. No, I understand that he's a program, but there were times- They're all programs. Right, yes. 80% of the They're all programs. Right, yes. 80% of the characters in this movie. Right. Yeah. There were times within this chunk of the movie

where the way they were talking about him made it seem like he was some sort of proto-one. No, yeah. You understand what I'm saying, right? Yeah, I do, I do. They said like, I mean, Monica Bellucci keeps on saying like you remind me of him.

He was like you before this and that. Yeah. You know, he went rogue. I mean, this sort of stuff. I think that's all fair. That's all fair that maybe he was some sort of like leader figure. Benedict Arnold of the programs. Yeah.

I mean, he existed before the Matrix had the glitch that leads to the one. Because the Matrix had literally, the Matrix that we know in these movies had not been invented yet. Yeah. So anyway. Yeah. Yeah. So all his companions are monsters. Like the twins,

these weird albinos. Or ghosts. Or ghosts. They've got these, these two, these two people who are supposed to be werewolves. Cause Persephone executes one of them with like a silver bullet in the head. I thought they were vampires.

Vampires, werewolves, whatever. Cause there's a vampire movie on the TV behind them. You know, whatever. Whatever. And then there's a dude with a weird beard and he's a vampire.

The Oracle explains this to Neo where she's like anytime you've heard about monsters or aliens or whatever, that's like old pieces of the Matrix, old programs that won't go away. That's like just them freaking people out. Yeah, which is a cool concept. It's a good idea. I almost wish that

was just a whole movie. I wish this speaks to the idea of rather making it like oh, the three part Matrix, like trilogy, I want like seven Matrix movies and Matrix 6 is like Matrix, colon Monster Wars. So, you know?

Yeah, no, I do. So, I would say this is the worst part of the movie, I would say. Yeah. The Merovingian speech, he is, as I was trying to explain to Ben,

I think he's supposed to represent causality, which is like, you know, because he keeps talking about to represent causality, which is like, you know, because he keeps talking about cause and effect, which is like a, you know, like, and a simple piece of computer programming. It's like, if X, then Y. Technically, he's talking about cause and effect. Like, it's the most overstated French accent

from a real French person I've ever heard. He's a real French actor. There is this stupidest shit monologue he gives about, like, the cake over there is an orgasm cake, and she eats the cake and has an orgasm cake and she eats the cake and has an orgasm i watched this two hours ago and i already forgot so if you haven't dropped the movie at the point of the club scene or the oracle or the burly brawl or whatever then you're dropping it now but they literally he's explaining how he programmed the cake that the woman's eating

they give you a close-up shot of her like red lips. As the cake goes in, you see the code. And as if it isn't obvious enough, we go into matrix vision with the digital rain. And then the camera zooms in between her legs. Digital vagina. Yeah, and there's a big bang in her genitals. Now, can I just do a quick punch-up? Yes, please. Okay.

I would have loved for the camera to have panned over to an older woman at the restaurant, and she'd go, I'll have what she's having. Oh, boy. Terrific. Best in the biz. Best in the biz. All right. That was a great joke.

That was good. Ben, 10 comedy points. Oh, thank you. Yeah. all right that's a great joke that was good pen 10 comedy points oh thank you yeah so this scene is supposed to be informing what's coming later which is the merovingian is saying like we all have our place yeah we all serve a purpose and like your purpose is just to do one thing you know and like that's the whole idea of the one you fulfill the prophecy and as we later learn like his whole point is to reset the matrix right and then the merovingian goes to the bathroom

and gets a blowjob yes he does and persephone who makes no sense even in my wonderfully thought out computer logic of this movie what is she supposed to be i don't know i mean like she's called persephone who is like in greek mythology like the sort of prisoner of the underworld you know and like that's i guess the idea and she basically she's his prison she's like a spurned wife like i don't even know she asks neo to kiss her and like she's got to do it right you know it She's like a spurned wife. Like, I don't even know. She asks Neo to kiss her, and like, he's got to do it right, you know? It's sort of like a crappier version of the Seraph thing. Like, it's another login screen. Like, it's stupid.

Well, I was going to say, she's like the Violet to his Caesar, in a way. Yeah. Like, she's like the trapped, like, gangster's mall. Right. But I also remember, it was so hyped up that she was in this movie. Monica Bellucci was like really hot shit that year. Like, it was like, she'd been in some movies, and it was just up that she was in this movie. Monica Bellucci was really hot shit that year. She'd been in some movies, and it was just like she was- Melina had come out a year or two earlier, and people thought she was going to cross over and become an American star.

She was just one of the queens of the kind of lad mag, the sort of FHM type Maxim. One of the best looking people in history. She's a gorgeous person. She's gorgeous. She's married to Vincent Cassell, who's a fucking badass. Not only a fucking badass, but a little weasel of a man. It's a crazy... I'm not talking in terms of equal physical attractiveness, but they were like France's

Brangelina. They were the couple that France was obsessed with. So anyway, she's barely in the movie. Like a lot of these things. So I don't want to talk about this too much. Let's move past it. They make out in a bathroom and Trini gets really upset. Trini gets grumpy.

The whole thing is dumb and gendered and lame. The coldest grumpy you've ever seen. Hey, Carrie-Anne Moss is kicking ass with the little material she has. But just the way she plays the scene, I think she's doing what was asked of her perfectly. The way the scene is written is, oh no, I hate this. So Persephone, I guess, frees the Keymaker for them. The whole thing's underwritten. Keymaker is the best character in the entire movie.

Yeah, played by Randall Duck Kim. My favorite performance, my favorite character. He's the voice of the goose in Kung Fu Panda. Randall Duck Kim. No, he's the voice of the old dragon man. Master Oogway. Yeah, Master Oogway. He's the turtle.

That's right. It's the other old respected Asian actor. Yeah, but the one who does more comedies. Yeah, yeah. He's very funny. Yeah, I think his name's Randall also. It's Randall something, I think. Anyway,

so she frees the Keymaker and there's a whole another action sequence that's pretty cool because it's a little more low scale of Neo fighting like the Merovingian stooges with all these medieval weapons.

So it's nice. I gotta say, the second the Keymaster, the Keymaker, I keep on calling him the Keymaster. Keymaker, yeah. The second the Keymaker comes into the film, I'm more invested in all the action scenes

because there's someone vulnerable in the middle of all of it. Yeah, and sometimes it's almost a little too much because they'll pan over to the Keymaker just sort of sitting there while mayhem is happening around. It's like, how is this guy even alive? And he's like a feeble old man. He is like a backdoor root kit. I don't know how else to describe him. He's just like the guy who kind of gets you

into like through the computer system quickly. He knows the passwords. It's like I mean he's. That's what all the keys are. I like that's literally he's got a ton of keys. Yeah so they have to get him. Ben's nodding in agreement. Yeah Ben likes that. Yeah. They have to get him to like. First they have to get him

out of wherever the Merovingian is and across a highway, which is seen as that you're very vulnerable because there's no phones and you can't get to a landline to plug back into the real world. That's the best scene in the movie. And I just want to point out for one second. It's an insane action sequence. They built a whole highway to make it.

It's completely bonkers. I want to point out that we completely skipped over the big action scene that takes place at the Merovingian's house because it has like no bearing on anything. No it's just a fight. It's a well done fight but it's like The Matrix does it a little bit too where they're like well now we'll have a cool action fight but it's all better grounded. And the biggest

difference is in all those fights Neo hasn't become the one yet so you're like how's he gonna. There's some angst to it. And at this it's like well Neo's just gonna. You're just watching him kick ass. It's just good fight choreography. There is the moment in the fight where he bleeds. He gets hit with a knife and he bleeds. And they're like, see, he's still human. But, you know, whatever.

That fight's really well constructed, so it's a little engaging. But within the film, it just fucking means nothing. And then we're right into another action sequence now. You've got the two twins who are these white albino ghosts who say things like, we're very angry, aren't we? You know, it's crappy. They were discovered from, like, an're very angry, aren't we? It's crappy. They were discovered from an Australian home improvement show.

Yeah, I mean, I think the Wachowskis were just like, we need- Australian twins. We need two twins who can do martial arts. Yeah. And it's like there were two people. But I think they were on TV doing like a This Old House type of thing. Oh, okay. I'm sorry.

No, I was going to make a really dumb joke. You were going to make a Tim Allen. Yeah, I was going to say, were there two twin Tim Taylor? Yeah, grunt, grunt, grunt. Yeah, no, I think they did, like, they were not actors, but they were, like, television personalities who did, like, home renovation instructional

shows. Okay. And he was just like, well, these guys look the same. I mean, I barely know anything about them. They're quite annoying characters because they're invulnerable. They can just turn into ghosts. They look cool. They look okay. I think they look pretty crappy when they turn into ghosts. The ghosts look terrible. Yeah, ghosts look really bad. Weird CGI. Kind of like, rawr! But I like the design when they're

in their physical forms. Yeah, me too. You know, the movie, for all its problems, the movie is still incredibly well designed. Yeah, good design. So, they have this and again let's sort of move past it.

We agree it's good. It's really technically proficient freeway chase with agents with the Merovingians men and you're just you know you're trying to get the key maker across

and that's there's all these key maker gives attention that I think the movies lacked. I think that's a fair point. You know Trinity's on a bike and Morpheus has

a samurai sword. There's a lot of different elements at play that you can cut between that are cool. And the CGI never looks bad, unlike in the other, you know, other scene. But I like it's so simple. You got the key maker. It's like, OK, this is precious. We could lose him.

They need to get to a door. The only way they can get through that door is with the key maker. The key maker cannot fight. Right. Not at all. Zero. So not only are they trying to get through but they also have to make sure like they have to fight for themselves and for him um i like this a lot

so they get to the nebuchadnezzar and they do whatever they need to do and jesus and then there's another crazy action scene where they have to like break into a power plant and like blow it up so they can can bring down the walls of the sources, force fields so that the key maker can make the right key. This was a big part of the video game. I mean, this was like Niobe's territory. Because Niobe's a big part of it, and so

that's not in the movie. It's her and a guy who is the other guy. Which is confusing when they're also the ghost twins. Whatever. So let's not even talk about that either because it is explained in the movie and even in the movie it's incomprehensible and it does not matter. The whole point is to open this door to get to the architect. I will watch the 40 minutes of Enter the Matrix cut scenes for a bonus episode. It's not going to be fun, but for the bonus episode I will cover that.

But that's the parallel story that doesn't even cover this movie. That was the kind of thing I found annoying when I was watching it the first time. It's hard to defend. Who's going to play a crappy GameCube game essentially? It was on all platforms. I bought it for PS2

and I remember playing it for like 20 minutes and being like I don't like this. I'm not having fun. It's not good. It's not good. It feels like homework.

Because we just need to get to the big scene. They execute all this stuff. There's problems but they figure it out. The key maker dies. Shot to death by agents, but he gets Neo the key that he needs to go into the source,

which is like the original programming of the whole fucking thing, and he meets this man. He's played by Helmut Bakaitis. Bakaitis? I don't know how you say his name. Okay. He plays the architect. Yes. Who's the original program

who created the Matrix. Which I heard they really wanted Sean Connery to do this. That would have been shitty. I like this guy. Yeah, I prefer that it's not someone you know. It has to be someone completely bland and like kind of like remnant. Like he kind of looks like Sigmund Freud or like a million

other kind of stern white guys from the beginning of the 20th century with this like white beard. Yeah. He's just kind of. Now, I don't know if you agree. Ben didn't remember this, but do you remember the MTV Movie Awards sketch with Will Ferrell? Will Ferrell. Yeah.

I think that devastated the scene into oblivion. I agree. Once everyone saw it. I rewatched it very recently. Will Ferrell's performance in it is amazing. Everything else, shit. Like it's Justin Timberlake and Sean William Scott are not funny. We're co-hosting the show.

And they make a drumline reference. You're like, wow, 2003, baby. Wanda Sykes plays the Oracle. She's pretty good in it. Oh, she's funny. Yeah, I love Wanda Sykes. But I mean, Will Ferrell, who plays the architect, sits there and screams like, Ergo, concordantly! It's very funny. This whole

speech is very thesauricy. Well, it's supposed to be like you have stumbled onto whatever, like DOS, like whatever, code. He's an encyclopedia. I get it. No, totally. It's hard. It's one of the most audacious scenes in Hollywood blockbuster filmmaking. You've got to admit.

It's a big ask of the audience. It's great. Even at the time, I remember, I wanted to love this scene. I was really on board. I was like, whoa, this is nuts. But it does feel like, you know, 75% into the movie, the film just, like, the real stuff. This is what I love about it. And the Wachowskis

step into the theater and they're like, hey, could you help us move? No. Alright, that's funny. No, here's what's happening. Into the, you know, at the end of this movie. Watch some real heavy lifting. At the end of this movie, Watch some real heavy lifting. At the end of this movie, Neo completes the prophecy.

He completes the hero's journey. Yes. And he has done it. Like they've successfully executed it. And the architect is like, Yeah, hi. This is the same story that always happens. This literally is like the hero's journey.

You did it. It is just a necessary byproduct of this world I created. It's the only way for it to work is for one of you to exist every time we reload this fucking computer. And you're the seventh one. What is it essentially saying?

It's the sixth. It's the sixth one. He's like, this has happened five times before. It's a hundred years, basically. All of existence has played out six times. Yes.

And literally within the logic of the movie, the Matrix always reboots to the start of the 20th century and plays for a hundred years again. That is literally the logic of the movie, the Matrix always reboots to the start of the 20th century and plays for 100 years again. Like that is literally the logic of the movie. Okay. It's not like all of human civilization plays again. It's like the Matrix reaches this critical mass where too many minds have been freed and like the one is.

So we're going from 1900 to 2000 is the idea. Basically. And then a hard reboot. Like the idea. Remember when Morpheus says like it's really 2199. Yeah. It's actually like 26 idea. Basically. And then a hard reboot. Like the idea, remember when Morpheus says like it's really $21.99. Yeah. It's actually like $26.99. Yeah. And that's why in the logic of this

movie there are all these hovercrafts there's an underground city that works. Right. With like communication. The machines go in there, they kill everyone. Yeah. They leave it, they repair it. Right. And then they like bring the one and a few people into it as the matrix resets and they're like start over now i i will say so it's him basically saying like dudes this is a boring story this is boring like the hero

saves the day and like you know just like gets the magical glob and puts it into the bleep blorp and like then it's all saved who cares this is shit and it also feels like a fucking commentary on storytelling that old idea like there are only five stories in the world and they've all been told a billion times it's like it's the same fucking thing now i remember not necessarily loving like when neil opens the door because the movie at this point has been so so odd right sure and it's like they're they're like sort of edging you the entire time from what you want to see. They're feeding you something different the entire time. But it's pulling up to like, we got the key maker.

We're going to go through this door. And once we go through the door, everything's going to make sense. Right. And I don't know if I thought there was going to be a twist in the movie. But I was like- I mean, you certainly knew there was another movie coming. So there had to be something. I was like, there's going to be something that blows this thing open.

Yeah. And you get into the scene and the energy of it is so odd, which even as a 14-year-old, I loved. I love that the film went from being bombastic to we're in a white room. I think Keanu Reeves does a terrific acting job in this scene. I agree. It's a very hard ask, obviously. Especially all the other mini screens, I think, are really good performances. And I love that we keep zooming into the other screens to be like, this happens over and over and over again.

And all of your reactions are fucking ordinary. Like every single one of them. I love the language of this scene. I love that we're going screens and screens and screens. And I love that there's the amazing transition where they put the key through the door, the door opens up, we cut to space. It's a hard cut to just the stars. And then we zoom out of that onto a screen and then Neo's in the room.

And the architecture's like... Yeah. I loved all of that, right? Even as a 14-year-old. Do you have a butt? I think the writing thing is like I get what they're going for, but it ends up feeling really fucking like Stanford Review

like SAT prep. I love that, I love that it's the language of the movie, again, you're talking to computers it just reminds me of all the kids I hated in high school who were just like, I'm gonna fucking ace my verbals but you know what, there's no movie like it sure and I'll admit it's a crappy argument, but that's the argument I got for ya but within that

right, I love the visual language of this scene, the written language of it drives me a little bit crazy. I do fucking love the idea that it's like, we're blowing this whole thing up. This movie you're watching is unimportant. Yeah. Like the first Matrix is like, everything you know is about to go out the window. Right. And the second Matrix is like, this doesn't fucking matter.

Well, but it's also like the first thing is like, hey, the world you know is a lie. It's like a fiction. And the second one is like, hey, the narratives you know is a lie it's like a fiction and the second one is like hey the narratives you understand are like are totally a fiction like they're just designed to guide a story like into the same boring direction right which is a weird direction to go

for a sequel to a movie that everyone loved which is like hey everything sucks like this like the ending of this movie just going like just nothing fucking matters I would say this is where the movie should almost end one of the problems of this movie is just going like, nothing fucking matters. I would say this is where the movie should almost end. One of the problems with the movie is there's another 15 minutes. I had remembered the film ending almost immediately

after this. So let me just bring, so one thing that's important about this scene that I think is hard to get on first or second viewing is that when Neo has arrived, the architect already knows that he's not going to make the same decision as every other one. Right. Because he's saying like what always happens is the one arrives and he can either go and delete the matrix, which will kill everyone.

Yeah. Or he can, you know, just reboot. Yeah. And because the one is always like the savior of humanity, essentially like a Jesus type who like has humanity on his shoulders, he always makes this decision to save humanity. Because Neo's like, well, why would you let, you know, why would you let me delete the matrix will kill you too like we kill all the humans that kills you too and they're like well there are levels we can of survivability we can like we can deal with that yeah but more importantly you're a person and we know that so you're going

to make do the right thing but he says you're in love with trinity that's different we've never had this problem before where you're in love with one person more than you are in love with humanity. Yeah. Which is, that's what the Oracle did. Right. The whole arc of the trilogy is that the Oracle has made a change. And that she nudged him towards Trinity because she wanted to see what would happen. And also, she's noticed that the Ones are getting better. Because the Architect says it too.

He says, you're arriving at these points faster than usual. And guys, I understand that you really have to watch these movies over and over again to get this. You're bumping it up again. Oh, you really are. It's great. I love it. It's turning me around.

I also objectively understand that a movie can't work if David Sims, who's a loser and watches them too many times, has to explain it to you later. Yeah. But the whole point of what the Oracle is doing is that she is trying to affect a different cause. Her purpose is defined. It's to guide the one to the source.

Like, that's what she's there for. Yeah. And as Neo says after he exits the Architect to Morpheus, it's like the prophecy is just another form of control, and you were just a pawn in it, which is a bummer for Morpheus. Not to keep hitting the same point, but my takeaway from you saying all of that, right, and your point is I had to watch this a billion times and read everything,

you know, to like get all of this. And like I said, I hated the movie first, and I watched it over and over because I just love the world, and I eventually just dug into it in the right way,

I think. Yeah, I like the world a lot too. This is my takeaway from that. I wish they had just gone, we're just going to make a second Matrix, here are ideas of where we ultimately want to get to, and let's just do it one piece at a time because the first movie essentially has one big ask of

you it's like the world you know is not right the matrix versus the real world right and then the matrix reloaded is like here's your syllabus for the next semester and it's insane look right yeah i get you and it's like there's so much to parse in this one film and then three throws more shit up into the air where I'm like, you know, if they knew that the audience was eating out of their hands at this point and Harry Potter was set up at the same time at Warner Brothers where they were like, we're committed to the idea of making seven of these, but we're going to make one at a time. We're going to listen to the audience response and work with that.

I wish they had just gone like, let's just keep making Matrix movies. And the way we've been talking about the James Cameron thing right now. I don't think that's what they wanted to do, though. I think they wanted to do this. I know they had just gone like, let's just keep making Matrix movies. And the way we've been talking about the James Cameron thing right now. I don't think that's what they wanted to do though. I think they wanted to do this. I know. Which I think is great. We talk about like-

The Avatar sequel. If James Cameron wants to make an Avatar sequel, then I want to see an Avatar sequel. Because I trust him, especially when it sounds like a bad idea. But it might let us down in the same way. But it might. But when I look at Avatar as one film,

I go, that's a pretty self-contained story. I don't see the potential of seven other stories in this world unless they're just other stories in this world which is more likely what they're going to be from what you vaguely hear about the jake sully nateri narrative doesn't necessarily need five more stories but that's not what these movies are about but it does feel to me like i look at this movie and i'm like i wish they were doing it the way cameron's doing it now and david's making a face like a mew mew mew mew no no i get you i get you you know i get what you're saying but like i

was a different thing I don't I respect the fact that they made it this challenging and this much of a deep dive movie and a deconstruction of like yeah

of the sort of neo-prophecy which is a little hacky in the first movie you know oh savior of humanity he's very Jesus-y you know

machines are villains and even spreading it across multiple platforms and everything is a great idea if the other stuff and the other platforms had worked

I'm not defending the other platforms had worked. I'm not defending the other platforms. Right, yeah, you know? But I just, I wish we could have taken our time and had like all these ideas thrown out in the same way that the first movie does where it's like you really get to absorb it and you get to put like a movie that is engaging with like characters you care about

within those concepts. I agree with you. We're almost done with this episode, I think, because we're pretty low on time. But that's all fair. Yeah. I think this is all fair. But at least, hey, I got to try and defend

the storytelling choices that are happening here. Those are really fucking good points. Yeah. Now, obviously, as I said, the big problem with this movie is there's another movie to come. So Neo encounters the architect, and the architect says,

you're not going to do what you're supposed to do. And indeed, he instead goes to save Trinity, who's in trouble. to come. So Neo encounters the architect and the architect says you're not going to do what you're supposed to do and he indeed instead goes to save Trinity who's in trouble. Moves faster than anyone has ever moved. It's very cool. I think it's a very cool scene shot where he's like literally got this like tornado of cars around him because he's going so fast. It's great. And speaking

to Keanu Reeves' skill as a physical actor like his body language and his expression on his face. He's not overdoing it but it's like yeah I believe that's a guy who's like flying across the entirety of a computer program

to save one woman you know right so he goes he saves Trinity he like pulls a bullet out of her like out of her

like using like code power rewires her body yeah and then they they wake up back in the real world Neo uses like

kind of matrix powers to shut down some machines. He like shoots an EMP at them. A bunch of sentinels. Which is like, oh, whoa, no one can do that. That's weird. That's another thing. Sentinels come in really late in this movie. Well, they're going to be all over the next

one. I know. And then... But he does it like the bullet. He holds his hand up and all the sentinels. They all collapse. Right. And then they're rescued by a ship, and this ship has a guy called Bane on board who we've met a couple times before. We didn't even fucking talk about Bane. No, because we're not going to talk about him.

But one of the biggest failures of the movie. But anyway, the idea is like Smith has kind of like zapped into his consciousness because he like stuck his hand into this guy. And so he's in the real world now. Yeah, so that Smith has somehow invaded the real world. I don't like that scene. I don't like it at all anyway.

I hate it as the, boom, to be concluded, cut to black end of the movie. Like a movie with so much going on, that was the plot thread we had the least investment. This guy who's played by Ian Bliss kind of looks like Hugo Weaving with a goatee to the extent that you're immediately just like, is that just Agent Smith? But also stylized what is it stylized as like a cast member like a background tertiary player from prison break you know bane right he's called bane they make him look really scuzzy it's like that problem where like where everyone gets a cool name in like a sci-fi world and it's like your name is an obvious villain name we better watch out for you he's got like two scenes where in the beginning of the movie he's standing behind

a bunch of pipes like he's the fucking Xenomorph from Alien. Yeah, he tries to kill Neo really. He cuts two lines on his hand. The idea is that Smith has never felt pain before.

That's the idea. Right, right. That he's in the real world. But it's pretty obtuse on a first viewing. I'm not defending it. Right? And then there's another scene

where they're like we need another ship to go back up to flank the Nebuchadnezzar and he goes to his captain and he's like Captain, Captain, Captain our ship, our ship Captain, he goes to his like captain he's like captain captain captain our ship our ship captain our ship our ship

he's like Bane shut the fuck up we're in a meeting our ship our ship our ship our ship and then those two scenes happen in the first 30 minutes and then two hours later he's unconscious on the ship or whatever he's like there's a couple bit of there's a bit of business explaining this and it doesn't matter

but the camera pans over to Bane like it's a fucking Shyamalan mic drop. And it cuts to black. It's a mistake. And then they go... To be concluded. To be concluded, a film by the Wachowski brothers. They do it like it's the fucking Shyamalan piece. Okay, we gotta wrap up, but I want to briefly talk about the

box office. I mean, look, and our podcast is to be concluded. I mean, this... It's a thing. Guys, next week, we'll wrap it up. We're going to pick up right from where we are, but let's talk about the box office performance. So, open to $91 million, $134 over a longer weekend in May. I think it opened on a Wednesday, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Huge. It was an R-rated movie. I believe it was the biggest R-rated opening of all time at that point, which I think was maybe beaten at some point later. It was beaten by Deadpool only. Yeah. Only by Deadpool. Deadpool only did... Yeah. I think Passion of the Christ some point later. Was beaten by Deadpool only. Only by Deadpool. Deadpool only.

I think Passion of the Christ had also a five day weekend. I think there was some weird thing but I think Deadpool was the first one to actually beat it proper. The movie made $280 million in America which was a very healthy number. Maybe American Sniper too anyway. Yeah I can't remember.

But that didn't open you know. Oh yeah because it was a wide release or whatever the fuck it was. It was the fourth biggest movie of 2003. It was a big hit. It made a shit ton worldwide. It made $460 million. So it made $750 million worldwide, which was really good for 2003. Right.

So $270 million domestic, you said? $280 million. And the first movie did $170 million. Right. So this is like a big- Nice jump. A huge jump. Really healthy.

And we'll get to Revolutions. Revolutions was a disaster. is like a big. Nice jump. A huge jump. Really healthy. And we'll get to revolutions. Revolutions was a disaster. Has a big day. So only behind Return of the King, Finding Nemo, and Pirates of

the Caribbean for the year. That was a huge year. Huge year. Yeah. Do you want to give me. The top five.

The top five of May 16th, 2003. Okay. So here's where I struggle. That month was big for me. Okay? Okay.

I believe, because Finding Nemo came out after The Matrix. Yeah, Finding Nemo is a little later in the summer. Was the last weekend? Maybe June or July. I can't remember. Did Daddy Daycare come out that weekend? It had come out the week before. Okay.

It is now number two. Staying put at number two. Something else was number one the week earlier, and it's now number three. Correct. So Daddy Daycare has now earned 50 mil worldwide. I did domestic. Daddy Daycare was my sister Romley's favorite movie.

You've talked about this at least. For like the first like 10 years of her life. You've seen it like quite a few times right? Yeah and even like I drunkenly the other night put it on Netflix because I just like it's a movie I know every line of. You just know all the rhythms. Yeah and for the first time like not watching it with a nine-year-old who's in love with it,

I watched it objectively and I was like, oh, it's not as good as I remember. Oh, not so good. I still think it's kind of better than Daddy Day Camp. Daddy Day Camp is a disaster. My sister feels the way about Daddy Day Camp that I do about RoboCop 2. She just can't watch it.

She refuses. She's like, that's not Phil. Like, that's not. Okay, number three. It had been number one the week before and it now has $174 million in the bank. Wow. I think it had been number one for two weeks concurrently before. So it was the first week of May release.

Oh, I know exactly what it was. It was my, I think my favorite film of that year, X2 X-Men United. Fantastic movie. Yes. Number four is a film that had jumped 15,000% from its previous performance because it expanded to 2,000 theaters. My Big Fat Greek Wedding? No.

It jumped to 2,000 theaters. It had been... Number 53 the week before. It had been a limited release. It earned $7 million. It was generally regarded as a bomb. Fascinating. But it was a bomb that

was released limited and then went big. Was it a studio film or an independent? I think it's a studio film. It's an excellent film. One of my favorite films of the year. Done with Love? Correct. Hey, directed by Peyton Reed, who is going to follow it up with the period set Fantastic Four movie. That's one of my great what-if movies. We've talked about it on the

Padcastic 2. Okay, and number five, if you get this, I'll give you a thumbs up. You gotta give me some hint. It's a movie for kids. It's a movie for kids. Is it animated? No, it's in its third week of release. It's earned $32 million. So it's a live action film for kids. An adaptation of

a television series. It's a pretty big hint. Flintstones Viva Rock Vegas? Nope. Adaptation, live action, television series. Oh, I know exactly what it is. The Lizzie McGuire movie. Correct.

Because there was a big, big fight. Oh, what was there? In your household? That came out the same weekend as X2, X-Men United. Usually, I went to a small middle school. So we'd all go see a movie together on Friday. Uh-huh.

Like 20 of us, right? Jesus. Yeah. There was like 20. Okay. Okay. Okay. And usually we'd all unite on it.

And sometimes, okay, this week we're going to Sweet Home Alabama. Well, usually there's one big movie. Right. Yeah. Right. But like the boys would go to a quote unquote girls film. It came out the same week as X2.

Right. And it was like, that was the first one where like, these are the two biggest events for our respective groups. Like the girls were so invested, Lizzie McGuire. Not to be binary about this. No, no, no, of course. It was marketed right at them, you know, teenage girls.

Teenage girls, really. That sort of was a very early example of that. Related to like the Hannah Montana model. Yes. And I loved X-Men and the first X-Men was huge for me because it was the first time Of course! No, X-Men 2 was like an event beyond all events!

And everyone else was into the nerdy shit I liked. Like it was cool again. Like I could fucking talk about X-Men with people. I know, I know.

Love X-2. So I did get all five with some prodding. Yeah, with a little bit of prodding. The last two would have been tough. I usually give up

like on one of them. Yeah, some of the other movies and we'll wrap after this. You know, Identity, the great John Cusack. That came out then? Wow. I forgot the movie was that long ago. Anger Management, Holes, which is great.

A Mighty Wind, which is great. Bend It Like Beckham, which is really nice. Yeah. Good movies. Good movies. Yeah. Anyway. Do you remember the Ain't It Cool banners for Bend It Like Beckham?

No. Fox Searchlight bought banner ads on the Ain't It Cool site that were up for like six months. Oh, okay. for Bend It Like Beckham? No. Fox Searchlight bought banner ads on the Ain't It Cool site that were up for like six months for Bend It Like Beckham and it was just a picture of Keira Knightley in a sports bra. It said Bend It Like Beckham in theaters near you and then the poll quote from some fucking critic was

Keira Knightley is the sexiest tomboy beanpole on the planet. I actually vaguely remember the use of the word beanpole so maybe I have seen that. It was one of the weirdest phrasings I've ever seen and they just ran... I mean, she's a bit of a beanpole. But it was also such blatant, like, let's get the basement dweller mouth free. And she's like

17 years old in that movie. She's tiny in that movie. Yeah, because when she shot Pirates, she was 18. She was maybe 16, but she's the sexiest tomboy beanpole on the planet. So in case you were wondering, we are 13 years overdue for an apocalypse because we've already hit rock bottom as a culture. Okay, so to just wrap up, how do you feel about the challenge that you posed to me to try and make The Matrix Reloaded a good movie?

You definitely boosted it a bunch. It makes more sense to me. I couldn't even grasp an argument, really. It wasn't like I thought it was without merit, but I couldn't figure out a positive read on the film. The simplest version of my argument boils down to the two things, which is one, this is a movie that's about the hero's journey

and trying to subvert it. Right. And pull the sort of mask back on that as the first movie did on sort of like 90s reality. And two, the wonky stiltedness is because everyone's a computer. Everyone is a computer. This is a movie set in a computer. Now, Matrix Revolutions is a movie that's mostly not set in the Matrix. It's mostly

set in the real world, which is part of its problem. I would say it's a bit of a lesser movie, but it also has kind of bigger ideas. So you've got that, you know? To be concluded. To be concluded. I think we won't do a burger report on this one

just because it's taken a while. We'll do one next week. But as always, Griffin, are you loading something? No. Oh, okay. Please rate, review, subscribe. Yes, please.

Subscribe on iTunes and everything else. Thank you to all our fans out there. I think about the time this episode... Thanks, Blankies. ...Hozhogs, David Dogs, Griff Heads. Yeah, this episode is going to drop somewhere at the beginning of May so you're about to start work on the tick

Yeah I'll be a superhero right now but we're probably around the time of this episode going to put a poll up on Twitter possibly we're going to have a Facebook account soon for who we should do next yeah because we've got some contenders and we don't have a clear leader so please vote, check our social media tabs

follow us, Like us on Facebook and the like. And yeah, let us know. And as always, we get a lot of emails of people suggesting stuff. I read all of them. I rarely respond because I'm bad at emails. But just know if you've sent an email, I have read every single one. And all your

suggestions are processed. And if you'd like to write in, that email address is blankcheckpodcast at gmail. Correct. Okay. And as always? And as always, after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the matrix,

which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race. For levels of survival, we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in the world. It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors by design were based on similar predication. A contingent

of fermentation was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of this one. While the others experience this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis love. I propose she enter the Matrix to save your life at the cost of her own, which brings us to at least a moment of truth wherein the fundamental flaws ultimately expressed in the anomaly revealed is both beginning and end. There are two doors.

The door to your right leads to the source and the salvation of Zion. The door to your left leads back to the Matrix, to her and to the end of your species. As you adequately know, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction. The chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason. An emotion that is already binding you from the simple and obvious truth. She's going to die and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

I hope it is the quintessential human delusion. Simult simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and greatest weakness. Is this actually doing this? Is this still? And then Neo says, if I were you,

I would hope that we won't meet again. Is this going to be on the episode? And the architect says we won't. Just let it go. Intern Brian,

can you keep all that? Yeah. Great. Thank you. This has been a UCB Comedy Production. Check out our other shows on the UCB comedy podcast network Toronto critics are losing their heads over six the musical. The Globe and Mail raves Six reigns supreme and is eye-poppingly fun. CTV proclaims Six is a Royal Ten. Six is an upbeat, hilarious and emotional 80-minute ride, says CHFI Radio.

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