Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Matrix Revolutions

Episode Date: May 5, 2016

Concluding the Matrix trilogy, Griffin and David examine The Matrix Revolutions. But why gruesomely blind our hero Neo? What is the franchise’s message about love? Was this ending the right choice? Together, they discuss the unnecessary storyline between Captain Mifune and the Kid, Jada Pinkett Smith’s career, Dennis Franz as a potential replacement for the Oracle, and the very extended final showdown between Neo and Agent Smith.

everything that has a beginning as a podcast all right nice very happy that has a beginning has a podcast. All right, nice. Very happy. That was a double cross there, but it was good. You told me you wasn't going to do that. Yeah, and we'll play the clip of me saying that I wasn't going to do it at the end of this episode. Hello, I'm David Sims. Hi, my name is Griffin Claude Barrister Dauphin Newman. I didn't say my middle name.

Well, what's your middle name? Lawrence. I knew it was L. I don't know if I've ever known it was Lawrence. Yep, my mother's father's name. Well, what's your middle name? Lawrence. I knew it was L. I don't know if I've ever known it was Lawrence. Yep. My mother's father's name. Oh, very cool. My mother had two fathers and one mother because I have a mangled family tree. So it's Beresford and Claude and Dauphin. Yeah, no, I think anyone who goes to your IMDb pages had that delightful surprise with

your full name. Yeah, that's why I have a lot of names. Welcome to Blank Check with Griffin and David. It is a podcast. We talk about movies. And we talk a podcast. We talk about movies. And we talk about directors. We talk about careers filmographies. When a filmmaker, or in this case, a pair of filmmakers, have an early success, big, big, cultural, sort of tidal wave film early on in their career, and they get the chance to keep on making crazy and crazier stuff. Make things right out of their brains. We're talking about the Wachowskis. This podcast is called The Wachowski Casters. Yeah. And we're going to talk about the Matrix Revolutions today.

Happy Passover. Let's go. I like it. Happy Passover. By the time people listen, it's LBU. Yeah, it's like the middle of May. But whatever. Happy Passover, guys.

We're recording all these Matrix episodes in one week because my schedule is stupid. No, but it's fun. You know what I realize is even a simpler way of describing the conceit of this podcast? It's sort of a career after a filmmaker becomes a brand. Do you know what I'm saying? Absolutely.

When there becomes an expectation of like this is. Oh, this is an X movie. Okay. Right. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When there are expectations on the film like that. Yeah, yeah.

We mostly talk about directors who maybe a studio would even say like, hey, this is a movie from these people or this person. Right. And the audience would go, oh, or ugh. And even bigger when they use their actual names rather than from the directors of, when they go like from the Wachowskis. Yeah, do they, I think with the Wachowskis,

they may say from like the visionary creators of the Matrix trilogy. I feel like I've seen that in like one of the trailers for their future films. I feel like- Maybe Jupiter Ascending had that. I feel like I've seen that in one of the trailers for their future films. Maybe Jupiter Ascending had that. I feel like they do the thing where they cut it both ways. From the Wachowskis, the visionary creators of the Matrix. Yeah, you know.

They have the benefit of being named the Wachowskis. It's a pretty cool, unique name. Yeah, that's true. This one we're talking about today is their fourth film. It's interesting to think that. They made four films. They're not like Shyamalan, who we did last time, who, you know, he had a little bit of a running start. You know, he made a couple of very small movies before he got.

Their fourth movie was this movie, The Matrix Revolutions. Yeah. And they made these. This was 2003, so they've been directing movies for, what are we saying here, like seven years. Yeah. And at this point in their career, 75% of their films have been Matrix movies. True. Yeah. They went deep into

this. This was filmed simultaneously with Reloaded. The previous, which had come out in May and this came out in October. No, November 5th. November 5th. 2003. Okay. I was 17 going on eight. I was a senior in high school.

Yeah, I guess, I mean, the shift, the fast-paced shift for these movies, with these movies for me, is that Matrix Reloaded comes out the end of my eighth grade year. So it was like my last days in middle school. And then- Now you're in high school. I'm in high school. So there was a seismic shift within me. Within you, within your life and your perception. And then... Now you're in high school. I'm in high school. So there was a seismic shift within me.

Within you, within your life and your perception. Between the six months that these two films were released, I just became a worse person. I became a horrible high schooler. Well, you know... But I was at a new school, new friends. I mean, and even this speaks to it. I saw Matrix Reloaded opening day, opening night, with all my best friends from middle school.

Yeah, yeah. And I saw Matrix Revolutions two weeks later on a Tuesday with a guy I kind of liked. Yeah, I saw this movie, and certainly not opening, it was more of a like, all right, let's get around to this one. It definitely felt like doing my laundry. It was like, I have to do this.

I didn't see it at the Odeon Leicester Square in London, which is like the sort of primo, biggest screen theater. It's like a basically like,'s a one screen huge theater. I similarly saw Matrix Reloaded at the AMC Lincoln Square and then saw at the Regal Battery Park. Oh, I was just there for the Tribecaville Festival at Cavernous. It's a ghost theater. It's a ghost theater. Weird, weird place.

Yeah, no, I saw this at the Islington View. If it even still stands, I don't know if it does. Anyway, I saw it with my friend, my best friend, who I probably saw all the Matrix movies with, at least the reloading. And then another kid, Michael Cross. Shout out, Michael Cross. I'm sure he doesn't listen to this. He's my old high school friend who had not seen a Matrix movie.

I remember we sat down, I think just assuming, like, he at least saw the first one, I'm sure he's, you know, and he was like, yeah, so what are these movies about? And I was like, wait, have you not seen, like, a Matrix movie? He's like, nah. So it was fun to watch it through his eyes. I've had two. I remember that. I've had two experiences like that. One, for the fourth running week,

I'm going to reference the fact that I recently went to Universal Studios in Hollywood. Well, you were not recording this podcast. So I was waiting for Colleen Atwood to get off her ass and design you a super suit. I had a day in between costume fittings. Whoa. Well, let me just sip some milk of magnesia. What is that?

I don't know. It's like old people drink that, right? Yeah. Someone recommended it to me for helping with my IBS, and then I looked up and I realized it makes you poop more. Right, it's like a folky kind of remedy for being constipated. Yeah, I'm not constipated. I have the opposite problem.

Anyway, I'm like Crazy Eddie. I have a fire sale on poop all the time. Listen. Listen. Listen. I went on the Minions ride. Minions Mayhem? Yeah, I saw you tweeting about it.

You didn't love it. Well, I haven't the Minions ride. Minions Mayhem? Yeah, I saw you tweeting about it. You didn't love it. Well, I haven't seen any of the movies. So it was flying over your head, you're saying? I guess. Come on, but you know, they're little yellow guys. They worship tyrants and villains. Yeah. And they speak in a made-up language.

Sure. They got little goggles and little overalls. Yeah. And they go like, banana. I'm just saying this ride was pretty heady, right? Because I, in the past, How long is it?

It was pretty short because like, Shrek 4D, which I, you know, I have talked about as a fucking sludge in a bad movie.

It's a bad movie. I thought that Shrek 4D replaced Terminator 2. It did not. Minions Mayhem replaced Terminator 2. 3D, Battle Cross Time.

An even bigger insult, really. Bring back Terminator 3D 2 whatever the fuck it's called. Well, no, because I'll say T2 3D Battle Across Time is probably my sixth favorite movie of all time. And Shrek 4D blows. But the Minions ride, okay, here's what I don't understand, right? We should

have Pilot on for this segment. We should. Pilot's gonna if she listens is gonna be very upset that we're talking about the Minions without her. This is the premise of the Minions ride. They're going to turn you into Minions. Okay. They've developed technology.

You'll become a Minion. Okay, so my question is are the Minions a species or are they a mutation of humans? Do you know what I'm saying? No, I understand. Where do Minions come from?

Are they born? How long do they live? Are they just us? And then the ride's half about that and it's half about one of the gru's daughters trying to give him a birthday present okay the ride it's i've never seen a ride this focused around a birthday present i i don't do a lot of rides so you could have told me star tours was about a birthday present and i would have believed you

star stores doesn't fuck like that all right let's talk about the Matrix Revolutions. We're back onto the Matrix Revolutions. The Matrix Revolutions. The only thing I did like that was I saw the only Bourne movie I've seen is the Jeremy Renner Bourne movie. Wait, is that true? Yeah, which made no sense to me. That's crazy.

So you haven't seen the first three? No. Are you gonna before Jason Bourne comes out? Yeah, it looks really good. I saw the trailer. They're all good. Yeah. They're all good.

Yeah, I don't know why I haven't seen them. It's a little Bourne miniseries Yeah, it looks really good. I saw the trailer. They're all good. Yeah. They're all good. Yeah, I don't know why I haven't seen them. It's a little Bourne miniseries. Yeah, sure, whatever. Fine. God, sorry I said anything. They are pretty interesting in terms of how

that was like the hottest shit for a couple years in action movies. Yeah. And then it was like they just dropped it. They were like, no, no, no,

no more like shaky cam, ultra realistic stuff like forget it forget it well even the trailer for the new one bond is like swerved away from that after swerving into it aesthetically the trailer for the new one looks more michael mann than than past greengrass into it man yeah into it no i think it looks really good but it's not like shaky cam it's sort of the like hyper clear digital video how much more shaky cam can we take really you know the new trailer does have the same action beat as the Supremacy,

I think, where he jumps from one window into another window, but that's just a cute little hat tip, I guess. Yeah, and everyone's taking that beat now. Okay, The Matrix, Revolutions. Yeah, now, so, last week we talked Reloaded, and I did my best to stick up for it. I think it's a really interesting movie.

You weren't very fond of it, but I think I did an okay job at least selling you on my perspective, if not converting you. You upped the movie's value in my eyes, which is a big accomplishment considering I had watched it like fucking 30 minutes

before we started watching, started recording the podcast. You were coming in hot. Right, and I had a pretty conclusive thought on where I stood with the film, and then you warped it a little, you know, in a good way. Sorry, I I had a pretty conclusive thought on where I stood with the film, and then you warped it a little, you know, in a good way. Sorry, I just got an email about

Jeff Richman. Is that his name? Husband of Tina Fey? Yeah, the music guy. You gonna interview him? Yeah, I'm gonna interview him. Cool. Okay, go on, sorry. I, we were saying that you know, we both, you hated Reloaded when it came out or you disliked it.

Disliked Reloaded. I think we were pretty similar where I was like, oh, that seems like it wasn't that good. It was kind of the Phantom Menace thing. We were like, oh, did I not like that? And I was looking at the reviews. Like it was pretty well reviewed. It got like a 70 something in Rotten Tomatoes. And then later everyone decided.

Pretty quickly. Yeah. I think, you know, but it was that thing where everyone's coming out and there's just been so much hype and so much chatter about it and it was just pushed so aggressively. Everyone was like, ah, ah, I mean, you know, I mean, they did all the Matrix stuff and they were jumping around so I guess it was okay.

And also, of course, it had a third part to go. So we were all thinking like, ah, maybe part three will tie it all together. Right. And then I remember seeing part three and hating it. Me too. And I remember distinctly hating it. My thought, God, this is such will tie it all together. Right. And then I remember seeing part three and hating it. And I remember distinctly. Hating it. My thought, like, God, this is such a stupid line.

But I'm just going to say it because I remember that I said this out loud. Probably just because I wanted attention. Right? The second Revolutions ends, I turn to my friend who I saw the movie with. And I said, what happened to you, Matrix, who used to be cool? Like, that's how I felt at the time. Good job. It was so stupid.

You know what I'm saying? Brutal. Yeah. Did he go, ooh, sick burn. You got griffined. You got griffed. Hadn't seen it since then, right? But I disliked it so much that I sort of gave up on the franchise.

I, you know, degraded, reloaded,, reloaded retroactively without ever watching it again. Uh-huh. And then, yeah. Okay, so went back into it yesterday. Yeah, I'm trying to remember when it was that I turned around on these movies. I think I... I honestly... It's weird because I can remember seeing them in the theater so clearly and being so disheartened by them.

Yeah. A few years later, I guess I I just rewatched them again. I think I saw Speed Racer and felt contrary. You know most people didn't like it and I was like no this is good. Yeah. And then I was like hmm do I like all of their movies? Like you know I immediately was like maybe I should check out those Matrix movies

again and kind of just did a deep dive. That I'm still in. I'm deep. It is weird to think that Speed Racer is their fifth movie. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's why they're such good blank check candidates. That quickly they got to make that movie.

And also that after these movies and them not doing well, they were like, uh-huh, well, we're just gonna go way crazier. But the point is, I'm trying to build up here, is that we both walked out of Matrix Revolutions not disliking the movie, but being irate about it.

Like, actually being angry that the film existed. And, like, personally, like, you did this to us, right? Yeah, and it's like, I thought you could, you know, fix this. I thought that, you know, maybe Reloaded was just, like, a lot of strands and you were gonna tie it all up. This movie is really mean to the audience. Like, really, really cruel to the audience,

I think. Okay, so I'm going to throw down my gauntlet right now. I think this movie is better than Reloaded. Interesting. I don't, but I think you could sell me on that. You could sell me on it. I was going into this expecting- I think I like Reloaded better, but I really waver between the two of them.

Going into this rewatch, and I watched both of the films in one day, right? Because we're recording all these episodes in one week. So you watched like Reloaded in the Morning, Revolutions at Night on Thursday. Exactly. I watched Reloaded in the Morning. We came in, we did a podcast, you went home, late at night you took in Revolutions. Exactly, right? So I watched them very, very

close together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. On a day that was all Matrix for me, essentially. Like all I did yesterday was eat a bagel and stew over the Matrix. You ate a bagel and stew over the Matrix. You ate a bagel, you watched the Matrix, you talked about the Matrix, you went home, you ate another bagel, you watched the Matrix.

And now here you are to talk about the Matrix. Yeah, it was all bagels and Matrix. It's funny, I just was watching some screeners for Veep, which is coming back this Sunday, and they were joking about the Matrix, and I was like, huh, Matrix jokes. You don't hear a lot of these. Yeah, yeah.

Whatchamacallit. So my thought on, you know, before yesterday's Matrixpalooza day, I was like, with this rewatch, I think I'm probably gonna like Reloaded more and hate Revolutions even more than I did previously. I was expecting to get a big positive bump on Reloaded. I see.

You thought this one was going to be like, no, right. I remember. Definitively. I was totally right on this. No, this movie's good too. Yeah, I mean. You can't really like one and hate the other. They're very much a part of a whole.

Here's an interesting theory I want to throw out. And I vaguely disagree with what you just said. Okay. I think Revolutions almost works as like an alternate sequel to the first Matrix rather than Reloaded. I almost feel like the two movies are two different ways to tackle the idea of doing a sequel to this film. It's a good argument.

I like it. And there were points where I was watching Revolutions where I was like, you could add in three lines of dialogue and this movie would make sense coming straight after the first Matrix. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you could sell me on this i think what you would lose is like any definable role for morpheus because he's barely in this movie i mean he's in in that you see him but he doesn't really do a single thing yeah you'd lose some stuff here here's what my lose a lot of my favorite stuff so I'd be very upset and sad

and I would cry. It's interesting that like Reloaded is like all ideas. Sure. Right? It's like ideas

and then some big fight scenes. I guess so. Yeah. I disagree with you but yeah. Okay. I see what you're saying. But it's a big idea movie.

This movie is like all plot. And it's all climax. movie. This movie is like all plot. And it's all climax. It's like, all right, everything's going to come to a close now. So yeah, we're going to do this big climax, this big climax, this big climax, and they're just going to flow right through each other. But Reloaded is like a conversation movie. Reloaded is like my dinner with Andre with some kung fu in it.

Sounds great. I'm not saying this in a negative way. This movie has a lot of talk too, but it's all like, all right, so. Exactly. Explain it to me. And the person's like, all right, here we go. I'm not saying this in a negative way or a positive way. I just found this interesting,

and I want to go on this little tangent here, okay? Yeah. So this movie, the dialogue is very sort of just pragmatic, right? There aren't a lot of conversations for the sake of conversation. They don't get these larger conversations. The stuff with the Oracle is a little bit, but yeah, no, I know what you're saying. Yeah, you know, but it's much more like this is what you need to do, objective-based, building up to these sort of bigger points. We talked in the Reloaded episode about the innate difficulties in making a sequel to The Matrix.

Because it's like, okay, you end the film at a point where Neo's perfect. So you have three characters who have no vulnerability anymore. Where are the stakes? The stakes are weird. He can do whatever he wants. And then this film immediately places Neo in different situations that are alien to him. Yeah. I think it falls down a little bit in explaining how,

just how he overcomes them. I agree. You know, it has, because yeah, it puts him in some real binds. But that's the interesting point is that like this film is like all movement. So you want to step back a few times and go like,

wait, explain to me how this is happening. And then Reloaded, you want them a few times to be like, hey, can we do some stuff instead of just like talking about it but I do think if they're I'm going to mention it in a second

I think there's a world where as like an inversion of the first Matrix if this was the sequel they said it was set like a year later and you had like three lines of dialogue maybe more like eight lines of dialogue specifically placed at points to explain ideas that were covered in the reloaded. In the reloaded.

In the reloaded. I think it could work as like the Matrix 2. And I actually think people would have liked this more as 2. I get what you're saying. Then they liked it as three or liked Reloaded as two because it would feel like this is the story continuation we were expecting. I get what you're saying. No movie could

live up to The Matrix. I mean, I think we've realized that now. Except for the sequels to The Matrix, which are great. But you know what I'm saying. I get what you're saying from an audience perspective, but I think you would lose just a sticker for Reloaded, which I love. You would lose a lot of stuff. I mean, Reloaded is set mostly in the Matrix. This movie is mostly not.

Almost entirely not set in the Matrix. And the Matrix is, to me, the most fun part of this whole universe. I love that idea. The idea of being in a world that you can bend the rules of and interacting with things that are not human

but are human and like finding that line between those things you know these are computer programs but they also seem to have evolved consciousness beyond that and it's fun to explore that territory which this movie does right at the start and then it has a lot of stuff to do so it kind of drops it my kind of point to you is it's talking about a movie where you're in a bind for the sequel because it's like, how do you make Neo interesting if he can do anything he wants in the Matrix?

Yeah. I think placing him in the real world is like a good story decision. If you're going to make him more vulnerable, of course. But he has to stay there,

you know? Yes. And to your point that like, you know, if you're talking like a person who wants movies to be entertaining in normal ways,

what are you, crazy? Right. I think maybe, and this is solving your Morpheus problem, maybe you put Morpheus in the Matrix. In the Matrix, sure. Yeah, sure. You know, I mean, it's the classic, like. You mix in a little reloaded stuff where it's like, in the Matrix, they have to go get the blob, you know, and so Morpheus has an adventure.

Like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Right, right. Morpheus is getting a key master or whatever with Niobe, you know? Or I still, like, watching it this time, don't understand. Keymaker. I think you said Keymaster again. I keep on fucking saying that, and he's my favorite character. The Pagemaster.

Yeah, that's my favorite movie. I do, re-watching this film right now, right, stepping away from my, like, massive Griff rewrite of the entire idea of this franchise right on just a very simple level i don't understand why they didn't make morpheus the one leading the like apc mech suit it's a good point i that's a fair point because of course you then have these characters who you barely know don't really care about don't really care about although you know they make some effort to at least be like charismatic, but it's all very like straightforwardly cliched. Like, you know, oh, the grizzled old captain and the young buck, you know, like helping

him out. You have this like cool like robot war that goes on for a really long time, but it's like you're away. You're less engagement because you're not with the characters who you've come to like follow for two or three movies. Meanwhile, the mission that they have Morpheus and Naomi on is like, okay, it's like mostly just them sitting in like a cockpit,

you know? Yeah. Uh, it's, it's a problem. I mean, I think, and I mentioned it in the last episode,

like Morpheus, that doesn't really work. And Trinity also doesn't get anything to do except, uh, spoiler alert, uh, get impaled by a bunch of spikes and die. Yeah.

I also think the entire thing with Bane in this film doesn't work at all if you've seen Reloaded. But if you pretend that Reloaded doesn't exist and this is the second Matrix. Yeah. You would need at least a little bit of info on how smith got into this guy's brain because i watched this with my girlfriend and she had seen reloaded but years ago and was just like how how how does he get in his i don't understand how did he get in the real world how tell me how and i was like well he's like in his brain and she's like no no no i need more than you saying that i agree but what i find fascinating about this movie, which I had totally forgotten,

is they treat it as like a mystery of like who the fuck is Bane. Like the scene where Bane goes like, Mr. Anderson, here we meet in the real world. There's literally four minutes

of Neo being like, who are you? What is this? It's not possible. But he doesn't even say it's not possible until four minutes. I don't want to talk about Bane

until we're getting to the plot. Are you finished with your thing? Let's get to the plot. Okay. I'll cover more points as we go through story point whatever. Okay. Now, so, all right. Great.

Matrix Evolutions is a great movie. I love it. I like it too. That's my point. Yeah. But I think if I, it doesn't matter. Okay. So the movie begins with my favorite part of the movie.

Neo did a thing in the last movie. He like sent out an EMP from his hand. Yeah. He like used like matrix powers in the real world. No one can understand how. And he went into a coma and was sent to a train station called Mobile Avenue. Yeah. And mobile is an anagram of limbo.

Good work. Which is I guess just it's kind of like a nothing place. It's like where programs are sent when they don't make sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is, I guess, just, it's kind of like a nothing place. It's like where programs are sent when they don't make sense. Yeah, right. And it's, this has my single favorite shot in the movie. Great design. Oh, yeah.

This station. It's kind of like a subway station with, like, white tiles. So cool. And it gets back to sort of the, like, great aesthetic stuff in the first Matrix, which is just, like, really clean, sparse environments. Well shot shot you know these sort of very like yeah what's your favorite shot

my favorite shot in the entire film is Neo wakes up in the train platform can't figure out where he is wakes up yells screams gets on the tracks runs and there's a wide shot of him just running in circles he runs off one side and then five seconds later runs off the other runs back in yeah I love that and I love off the other, runs back in. Yeah.

I love that. And I love that the track is just two rails. There's no, like, it's just like a little unreal. Like there's no power line. There's no third rail. There's no, you know. Oh, I didn't even notice that. It's cool.

You're a big train guy. We've established that. I do. I'm a big train guy. You love trains. I love trains. Yeah. So that's one reason this is a cool scene.

It's up my alley. But also, Neo meets a lovely Indian couple who are two programs. I love that they say what they are. He's like, I'm like an engineering subroutine and here's my wife. She's a security system. And they are programs that made a baby. And the baby doesn't serve any purpose except that they wanted to make her. Yeah.

Which is like the greatest fucking greatest sci-fi idea I've ever heard i love it so much a lot yeah uh the movie you know like both of these movies spends a lot of time explaining that uh-huh right because the audience i think is just like oh my god like is anyone gonna shoot any like what is going on well here's the other thing the last movie ends with like the architect totally blowing our minds, and then a bunch of action happening. Right, saying, like, this is all fucking control and not real, and yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're like, Jesus Christ, what's the fallout of this situation going to be? What does Neo do in response?

And then he wakes up in a train station and talks to a nice family. Which is, I mean, it's a classic sequel trick, it's like slow down slow down slow down because you know we still have to be a movie and like the good stuff will happen later so which I like a lot I mean I you know I was sort of getting at this like in the last episode but I sort of believe the best way to make a sequel

is not to necessarily take the next linear step in the story or to the escalation rule that most people apply where it's like, gotta go bigger than you did last time. Bring back all the things people liked and more of it. I think you go parallel. I think the best sequels are parallel films

where it's like, here's a different character or these characters in a different environment, you know? Or a different angle, like the Toy Story trilogy. Anyway. It's a good call on the Toy Story trilogy as much as I don't love 3 but 2 for sure is a really good idea for a sequel.

I think 3 is half retread half really good new stuff which is why I think 3 is a great movie as opposed to the best film ever made. Which Toy Story 1 and 2 are tied for that title. But Toy Story 2, yeah. No, it's like a really smart, like, let's just go sideways.

Yeah, definitely. You know? Let's just explore different ideas. And so is this opening scene you're saying. Yes, I like this a lot. Yeah, it's good. And I almost was like, because I remember early on. I wish it was longer and solved in a more interesting way.

Exactly. That's my exact complaint. I think that's fair. When early rumors were coming out about the Matrix sequels, and I was like, we're getting two of them? What are they? I remember reading somewhere, probably fucking ain't it cool, like, oh, Matrix 2 is about, like, you know, Neo becoming the one, you know, whatever. And then Matrix 3 is Neo gets locked out of the real world.

I remember hearing something where it was like Neo gets locked out. Which is what happens, yeah. Right, and I was like, that's a cool idea. Like once again. It should have gone on for longer. You want to put the guy back on his heels, you know, like, like you want to have him a little disoriented as a character if he's all powerful. And I think it's a cool environment.

I like these new characters. Not crazy about the performance from the little girl. Oh, I like her. Interesting. I like her. I think she's a little child actor-y. I like it. I am into her. Interesting. I like her. I think she's a little child actor-y. Yeah, I like it. I am into her.

I love the couple, though. Yeah, Bernard White, who plays Ramachandra, who's like the one who does most of the talking, the quote-unquote father of this quote-unquote daughter, is played by Bernard White. He was in Captain America and the Winter Soldier recently. He's like around. Who's he playing? Remember how there's like the sort of the council of, you know, the UN-type council? He's like around what are you playing remember how there's like the sort of the council of you know the un type council he's like a pretty with jenny a gutter and who was powers booth

powers booth is in the avengers he wasn't in winter soldier but yeah jenny a gutter you know yeah those guys yeah those people okay and you know he's just one of those actors who's been on every single television show that ever happened he's good i think he's really good in this um you know i mean it's it's the challenge of you have a lot of information to dump and you're playing a computer program. Can you give it warmth and can you give it personality and make it emotionally engaging? And I think he really

does. You feel the guy. I do. I think that it's a, if you think deep about it, it's this brilliant thing where he is emotional. He has like obvious love for his creation, his daughter, but he also speaks has like obvious love for his uh creation his daughter but he also speaks with like a pretty direct kind of logical sort of tone yeah i think it's a really good performance i also i also just love the the way he talks to neo he's like oh i'm a computer program and neo reacts as

if he's like oh uh no i mean of course i'm not i'm not one to judge you know computer programs can have children i mean you know nothing there's anything wrong with that exactly like keanu reeves is pretty good in this he doesn't keanu reeves gets way less to do in this movie than he does in uh reloaded agree but i think he's really good i think he's good too it's just like he's he gets all this and then he's freed and almost immediately just sitting blind in a chair for like the last half of the movie yes which is what it is so they set up that they made a deal with the Oracle because the Merovingian's going to want to clear...

Yeah, so this... Okay, so I'll try to explain it. So this train station is part of the Merovingian's like old backwoods empire in the Matrix where like he hides and it's controlled by a program

called the Trainman who is played by Bruce Spence who played Tian Mi Dan. I know that. I thought I was going to be the one to have to build this up. Very exciting. Tian Mi Dan. I know that. I thought I was going to be the one to have to build this up. Very exciting. Tian Mi Dan in Revenge of the Sith,

but he also was the gyrocopter pilot in The Road Warrior. You announced this to us on our Revenge of the Sith episode, and I think me and whoever the guest was were like, oh, okay. I believe first. I think it was Gethard was the guest.

Like four consecutive episodes, whoever we had on as the guest, I'd be like, but do you realize that's the gyrocopter pilot? And they'd go like, who fucking cares? Big, tall, weird Australian dude. You know, pretty good as the train man. Kind of a little hacky, like, oh, I'm a weird hobo. You know, but he's sort of.

I love him. He's fun. There was a stat that year where he was, 2003, he was in this film. He played the train keeper or whatever the train man he played Chum the shark in Finding Nemo one of the psychic sharks

and then he was deleted from Return of the King he was going to play the mouth of Sauron this is right and I've seen that scene it's a deleted scene in Extended Edition because the eye of Sauron is the thing but they needed Sauronon to speak, so he comes out in a horse, and he's just like a mouth, and whatever. Guys, Lord of the Rings, Fellowship, Masterpiece.

Two Towers, good. Return of the King, horrible. God. The idea was, he was in like three humongous movies in one year. It was that moment, like we've said before, it was just Australia and New Zealand, you know, the Australasia was just like, let's make all the movies here. But he was the highest grossing actor of that year. Bruce Spence had a big 2003.

And then, of course, Revenge of the Sith, too. So he notched off a lot of franchises. Yeah, two years later. Okay, so the Merovingian controls this train station. I hate the Merovingian. Can I just say how much I hate this guy? He's a problem in this one. He's not good in the second one, and he's worse in this one.

Yeah, I just get bummed out any time they even mention him. The Merovingian. They call him the Frenchman a lot. Yeah, I know. I think because his name is, like, no fun to say. Yeah, but the Frenchman just feels goofy. It's like... Well, he's pretty goofy.

Yeah, I know. Okay, yeah. All right, so, you know, so parallel to Neo stuck in the, you know, Morpheus and Trinity get, they, like, they run back over to the uh the merovingians like lair he's in like a bondage club and let's not forget fucking the movie opens and they got neo on the table and they're talking about he's still in the coma and then we got this fucker bane right and they're like we don't know what's going on they rescued him from like another ship that crashed and they're like he's got self-inflicted wounds what's up with this?

And Neo and Trinity and Morpheus rather are like I don't know let's go have some fun. Yeah they get a call from Seraph who is the guardian for the Oracle and they all go, the three of them go to this club. They confront the Merovingian. And this is like the one classic Matrix sequence in the movie

where they put on cool jackets and they have a bunch of guns and a bunch of people grope in titties and they have well there's also a fun little action sequence where people are like jumping from the ceiling to the floor which is cool yes with the columns yeah pretty sexy little action sequence we go to like another like rave orgy yeah totally and i mean yeah whatever it looks i mean the costumes are nice yeah i'll say that there's a real good shot of a crowd scene and they're like several groups of people where it's like one person standing behind another person and just tweaking their nipples.

There you go. And you know Monica Bellucci's there. She's just sort of sitting there. Yeah her and Merovingian look exactly the same except they're red now. They're in red. Anyway and the Merovingian once again is like ah the Frenchman I am the Frenchman. Hello how are you doing?

He just talks for like five minutes. Yeah. How'd you feel about this, Ben? Because Ben, FYI, and yes, you can introduce me. Wait, Ben's here? Ben's here. Producer Ben? Ben watched this one and not reloaded.

Producer Ben? The Poet Laureate? The Haas? Hi. The Tiebreaker? That's me. Birthday Benny? Sometimes.

Mr. Positive? Yeah? That's me. Birthday Benny? Sometimes. Mr. Positive? Yeah, today, sure. I said Tiebreaker, I said Poet Laureate. The Fuckmaster? Yeah. Bruce or Ben Kenobi? Peeper? Peeps.

Kylo Ben? Mm-hmm. Ben Night Shyamalan? Wow. Yeah, yeah. All right. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. But are you professor crispy um

no no no oh i almost almost okay well hello hello hello so ben you saw this one and not reloaded well i i had seen reloaded years ago but uh yeah i this is the first time i saw this film ever so just just i mean well we can ask you other things too, but I just wanted to quickly get your impression of just this scene with the Merovingian monologuing. He's fucking gross. Agreed. He's so gross.

He's a bummer. Lambert Wilson. That's the actor. Yeah. And it's also like you totally at the same time to see what happens coming. It's so clear that he's just gonna like be annoying and then someone's gonna put a gun on his head

it's very true because it's like it almost seems like he's gonna set up the movie because he's like there's one thing that I would like to get Neo back and that is the eyes of the oracle and you must give them to me and then you're like that's not gonna happen right and you're just like I feel like this movie's gotta wrap it up I don't know if we're gonna have a a whole, like, let's steal the eyes of the Oracle heist adventure.

Wait, how does that work? He's going to take her eyes and put it in his head? That's crazy. He's going to take her eyes off. It does feel like an unreasonably big ask. Yeah, I know. It's like, dude, are you serious? Can we come back to this Frenchman thing, too? Because

in the second movie, they say Merovingian so much, and in this movie, everyone just calls him the Frenchman. Well, so maybe that was a note they got, or something from the reaction where it's like, nobody knows what the fuck a Merovingian is. Stop saying. Also, it's a gross word that makes people feel uncomfortable every time you say it.

So, Trinity literally says like, I don't have time for this shit, points a gun at his head, and Monica Bellucci is like, oh, she'll do it. She loves him. Oh, my, my, my. Yeah, and Monica Bellucci

is like coming at the suggestion. She's just a fucking rebel rouser. Someone underserved character. But am I wrong? I mean, I might be being crass about it, but the idea, she seems to be getting off on the fact that like shits happen

she likes passion she likes passion you know in the second movie too she likes it when people are emotional because Merovingian sort of lacks for emotion except for I guess like spite like he doesn't like doesn't like people. Smug is smugness arrogance and emotion or is it mental state anyway so

so whatever then they get Neo from the train station yeah yeah it's way too quickly yeah it almost feels like they didn't know where to put the break between these two movies yeah they picked the wrong spot but I get that you can't then have this fucking train adventure in the second movie should they have done a little earlier or should they have made the train thing longer like you say which I think might have worked just keep it going and like you know what i'm saying like let each movie breathe a little i get you but i think what happened i don't know but my guess is what happened is like they made the matrix and then they sort of came

back together and like thought of a bunch of stuff they would want to do in sequel and had a lot of stuff and said well we'd love to do two movies, and they had, what? A blank check. And so, thus, you know, green light. But what's weird about it for me is that their plan included, like, such a finite end. You know, that they were like, well, let's set our own goalposts that we have to hit, and then we just have to fit everything we have in between these two goalposts. That's why I love these sequels, is because they tell a complete story. Sure.

But we forgot to say, so the idea is that the little girl program would be deleted because she doesn't serve a purpose, so they made a deal with the Merovingian that she can go to stay with the Oracle. Yeah, that she can be smuggled into the Matrix and be in the company of the Oracle. And she'll be safe there, so they're trying to get her on the train.

Neo tries to sneak on. Yeah, there's a lot of concepts here at work where it's basically just like, the way the Matrix works is evolving in a lot of ways that the machines can't keep up with. Right. So you've got this thing where programs are becoming so self-aware that they have bondage clubs and train stations and they're making babies. Like what? Like that's a lot of stuff.

And they're tweaking nipples. I mean, that's advanced. You know what I'm saying? To understand nipple play, that's a delicate art form. Then over in the real world, you have Neo, who is like the same glitch, this one that always happens, but he seems a little more evolved, a little more unpredictable. Yeah, I like the idea that they're sort of getting at, which is like all stories are the same story being told over and over again, but this time it's a little different.

It's evolving every single time a little bit. Guys, could we mention the Oracle's a different person. We're going to get to the Oracle in a second. I have a lot of stuff to say about that. No, no, no. Ben, we're going to talk about that for a while. Don't worry about it.

No, but the... All right. But I had another point and I totally forgot it. Fuck. Neo... The story's changing. We're advancing.

But there's another thing that's really... Oh, Smith. Yes. Obviously. That's the other thing. Agent Smith has turned into basically a computer virus and is overwriting all of their software. He got freed from his programming by Neo, killing him. And instead of just going away, they can't deal with him either.

It's like as Neo turns more good and heroic, there's this remainder of the equation, as they say, that's like the opposite. Yeah. Okay. The next thing is the Oracle. Sati goes to the Oracle. Yeah. She makes some cookies with her. They make cookies together. Neo shows up. And she chain smokes. She does all

the things we remember the Oracle doing from the first movie. Right? Behaviorally, environmentally, it's like exactly the same as the Oracle scene. Except now, it's a new actress. Yeah, now Gloria Stewart died. I understand that. She's played by Mary Alice. I think this was a humongous mistake. Interesting, I don't at all.

I agree, I also think it was a mistake. This is the mistake I think they made, right? She shows up, they go like, who's this? I'm the Oracle. You're not the Oracle. Right, and this is a conversation with Trinity Morpheus as well. I think she's introduced a little earlier. The idea is that the Fowl got corrupted

and she had to sort of evolve and she's like, you might recognize parts of me but not other parts of me. It's actually not to be because this is not explained in the movie. The trade that the Indian couple, the Indian program couple made with the Merovingian was to her outer shell. And the Merovingian actually references this in his really boring thing

where he says, like, oh, the Oracle has a new shell. Too bad. So the Oracle sacrificed part of her, like, programming to, like, let Sati into the Matrix, and that's why she looks different. Now, obviously, they had to write this on the fly because the fucking actress died. So I think, you know, it's a lot of. I understand that. Yeah.

Here's what I would have done. Hired a remarkably different actor. Yeah, I know. I know what you know, it's a lot of... I understand that. Yeah. Here's what I would have done. Hired a remarkably different actor. Yeah, I know. I know what you're saying. I think hiring someone of like the same age and the same sort of energy level, someone who feels like they're playing, like Mary Alice feels like someone else who auditioned for the Oracle. Sure.

Against Gloria Foster. Right. Yeah. She's very, very similar. Yeah. I think if the idea is going to be like, okay, someone died. We couldn't control that. This isn't a creative decision. Right. Right? Yeah. She's very, very similar. Yeah. I think if the idea is going to be like, okay, someone died. We couldn't control that. This isn't a creative decision.

Right? Yeah. This is a necessity. Who are you going to replace him with, though? I would have gotten like a fucking 13-year-old Japanese boy. No. No. That would have been awful.

I would have hated that. I'm not saying literally that. I'm saying I would have gotten Dennis Franz to play it. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I'm saying I would have gotten Dennis Franz to play it. Do you know what I'm saying? You can't replace a nice old black veteran of the theater world with a Dennis Franz.

My point is that they have to replace them, right? And with this idea, this thing that keeps on coming up in the Wachowski's work of this sort of transience of the human spirit and the bodies being the outer shell you know and all of this perception versus internal life and all this sort of stuff i think that scene if they're going to be like you look different well in the reality of movies recastings happen all the time right in fucking dark knight like rachel dawes shows up and she's maggie gyllenhaal no one's like you look a lot more like maggie gyllenhaal than katie holmes you know and like don cheadle and terrence howard could not look or sound any more different. I get you. Of course recastings happen. In this movie, it feels like it's just a minor recasting. Yeah. And then they treat it like

they're stunned by her. Well, she's a different person. But she's playing it so similarly. If the idea is... See, here's where I disagree with you. I think she's playing it 100% differently. That's where I think we disagree. I think it's a very similar performance. Same looking type. Same physical type and age. On a superficial level, they're both old African-American women, right?

But I actually think their physical resemblance is less than the similarity in their performance. I think the performances are very, very similar. I don't agree at all. And I think you need a totally different actor to come in and throw something different on. Point made. We get it. I get it. I don't agree with you.

The other part of it is, as we talked about, I fucking love Gloria Foster's performance in the first two movies, and it bums me out every time because I feel like I'm getting the dollar store version of it. I get it. I don't agree with you. The other part of it is, as we talked about, I fucking love Gloria Foster's performance in the first two movies, and it bums me out every time because I feel like I'm getting the dollar store version of it. Wow. I so disagree with you. I think Mary Alice is good. She's great in this movie. So good.

You should watch it again. I think she's strong. Over and over. Like I have. But I think it's a strong performance. I think Gloria Foster is just this weird like just fucking bullseye. Time and place, everything gelled. She's perfect. So good. And I think

like it doesn't benefit her. Mary Alice and her performance to be playing off of like something else. You know? Can I make my argument? Thank you. Please. Yeah. One, my guess is they were like this happened in the middle of filming and they're like we cannot

change the tone of this you know of the writing of this performance enough to match like a totally different person it makes more sense for us to kind of get a similar like person she's a grandmotherly figure we need a grandmotherly figure you know so you cast dennis franz and go play it like you're a grandmother stuck in dennis franz's body no because that would kill the movie why doesn't denn't Dennis Franz work more? Look, I love it. Having just rewatched a bunch of De Palma movies, I love Dennis Franz. He stopped.

He legit stopped making movies. I don't know why. Yeah, it's weird. Or TV. City Angels, and then he peaced. I mean, even Dennis Franz could not benefit from the patriarchy enough to become a movie star. I love Dennis Franz, but it's not like they were going to line up a bunch of Dennis Franz

vehicles. I just think the idea is that Even Dennis Franz couldn't benefit enough from the patriarchy. Alright, alright. Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad you thought that was funny. You're distracting me from my point about Mary Alice.

She has to be similar, in my opinion. It has to be like this continued theme of evolution where it's like, yeah, she's different, but not radically different. It's just like she's a little more hard-bitten. She's a little quieter. She's a little sadder. But that doesn't mean it's a completely different person. I fundamentally disagree on this point.

We're never going to be able to convince each other otherwise, so let's move on. But I also think Mary Alice is good. She's in one of my ten favorite movies ever, so that helps. Which is that? To Sleep with Anchor by Charles Burnett, which is one of the best movies ever made.

I've never seen that. You should check it out because it's great. I've seen the killer sheep. Sure. Sure. Of course. It was like Charles Burnett's only like vaguely mainstream film. Okay.

With Danny Glover. Yes. I know which one you're talking about. Yes. It's basically about like Satan comes to a house and won't leave. Like, but in the form of a really annoying guy. Played by the gloves. Danny Gloves.

You put a glove on it. Such a good movie. Great movie. So you're telling me the glove does fit in that film? The glove fits and you must acquit. Must not acquit? Whatever. So anyway, so the Oracle, there's this scene, you know, half an hour into the movie, maybe a little more,

where Agent Smith comes for the Oracle and he absorbs her. He refers to her as mother. Yep. But I take her as mother. Yep. But I take that as sort of like she's the mother of all, not like... She's the mother of the Matrix. Right.

Like, you know, the architect referred to her as such. Yeah. So that's the idea, I think. That's not like she raised Agent Smith. It's not like... Right? Little Smith.

Little Smith. Would be cute to do a Matrix Babies. It's like a little Agent Smith in a little suit with little sunglasses. Why did they stop that format of like, let's just make a cartoon show? Just babies. Yeah, babies was so fun. Well, they should do an X-Men spinoff with the X-Babies.

Yeah, they really should. I can't believe they haven't done that yet. With Disney owning, they still have X-Men TV rights, I think. Oh, Disney owns the X-Men TV rights? No, it's Fox, because you used to be's been on fox kids i know fox but uh fuck disney bought fox kids because fox kids spun off of fox which is why abc family used to be fox family became freeform um fox is doing a new live action legion tv show and they had to make a deal with disney to get the rights to do that even though they have the movie rights we're all excited for Legion on FX.

Although they got a good cast. They did. Dan Stevens? Yeah, I don't know why this show exists. There are like two other really good people in it, right? Yeah, we're not going to look at it right now. And it's Noah Hawley. Yeah.

Did Fargo? Yeah. I don't love the Fargo show personally. I know you don't, and I do. X-Babies would be a great- Let's do do uh X-Babies uh would be a great let's do it X-Babies and it's fucking canon it's canon David it's executive produced by Mojo Aubrey Plaza Hamish Linklater Katie Asselton like great actors yeah and Dan Stevens is a star of tomorrow love that guy yeah love I would love a Bond uh Stevens Bond if you're gonna cast a white dude I would too

the other one that was thrown out is uh he think he could actually do Snake Plisskenwell if they ever do the Escape from New York remake that they should not do. They shouldn't do it. They shouldn't. But, you know, gun to your head. Kind of like with Alden Ehrenreich about the Han Solo movie where I'm like, don't do that. But, you know, he's not a bad idea if you have to do it. Because he's different enough that he's not just going to do an impression.

He's not going to do it because he's different enough that he's not just gonna do an impression he's not gonna do the dollar store mary alice version solo vibe shop of like you know he's kind of a little guy like he's not like a huge imposing guy that's my favorite thing about alden is is that like yeah he he's uh he's like my size yeah and i like the idea of like harrison ford was always it's like six foot three or whatever and if you're gonna make a young han solo movie make him scrappy make him an underdog. I think that's a great choice. I hope they fucking put a ring on it and cast him. Yeah they haven't made it official yet. By the time this podcast airs

hopefully we all know that and we're living in a better world where Alden Aaron Rick is officially Han Solo. I don't know if the world where they're making a Han Solo prequel is a better world but at least with Alden it's better. I agree with that. We're already living in a world where they're making a Han Solo prequel. It's a bad world. The world in which he's playing Han Solo is better than the world we're currently in. I agree with that. We're already living in a world where they're making a Han Solo prequel. It's a bad world. The world in which he's playing Han Solo is better than the world we're currently in. We agree.

Great. I love you. We agree. I love you too. Okay, let's move on. We've got all the Oracle stuff, and I think this is a scene where at 17 years old, I was like, oh, enough with this movie, which is when Smith absorbs the Oracle. And then he goes like, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Hugo even really has fun with an evil laugh. Hugo's slicing some honey baked in this scene. Oh, boy, is he. Yeah, he's bathing in the river of ham. He's not dipping his toe. Why wouldn't he?

I, right, like... Don't hold it against him. I think, again, there is, like, a story idea to this, which is, like, Smith is, like, rapidly changing

from, like, the sort of restrained thing that we remember from the first movie. Like, his sunglasses are different. His suit changes color, which is very hard to tell is like rapidly changing from like the sort of restrained thing that we remember from the first movie. Like his sunglasses are different. His suit changes color, which is very hard to tell because it's all like greeny gray. Did not pick up on that at all.

And and he's like talking a little like when he talks to Sati, especially he it almost like talks to her like he's a normal person. He's like, I'm not so bad. But this is the thing I was getting at last week. If the idea is changing, I would love it if his look changes more dramatically. I love it if Smith shows up in a graphic tee in like Dockers. He shows up in an hearty. He's got penny loafers.

He's got a puka shell necklace. So back over back over. You just like saying puka. Yeah, it's fun. So back over to the real world where we will now mostly be stuck. One thing I like is that someone looks at like the Matrix and the code looks all weird and they're like, what's wrong with the Matrix?

And we're like, we don't know. Like Smith's just going around causing mayhem. Yeah. Off screen. Here's another thing. Okay. So the film starts, digital rain, the Matrix reloaded. We go into green code and then we go in further and we're in an orange zone.

Yes. And we're seeing a dragon spirals from the opening shot of this film. Right. It's not even a shot from the opening, like the credit sequence. They're establishing a visual language of like, OK, rather than the sort of fractally squared off hard edges, digital rain thing. Here's this sort of spirally. Yeah. You're seeing, do you know what that dragon spirals are?

No. Which it's basically like a mathematics, like a chaos theory thing where it's like you make one line then you make three lines you know like mathematically it keeps evolving

until it looks like a completely different thing. Okay, that's cool. It is cool. David's showing it to me right now. You can Google it if you want. Yeah, you guys should look it up.

It's in, I think it's in the Jurassic Park book where like chapter one has a little line and like chapter two has like the code keeps it. It's cool.

That's great. Yeah, it's orange keeps it. It's cool. That's great. Yeah, it's orange and it's gnarly and sort of cool. Yeah, weird spirally gnarly stuff. Yeah. And then Neo's going to see that stuff later. Right. That's like his viewpoint on the world. If he looks into the code of the Matrix and he sees green code, when he looks into the code of the real world, he sees that.

Now, do you think that means to imply that the real world, he sees that. Now, does... Do you think that means to imply that the real world is also a program? No. Now, I think that became somewhat of a popular conspiracy theory or, like, read on the... Like one of those fan theory type things where it's like, oh, it's all the Matrix. That was my read, but I'll also say... I think also

a lot of people thought that at the end of Reloaded. Exactly. That was the thing. At the end of Reloaded, I thought that. So when Revolution starts... Because Neo does, like, a Neo thing. Right. And it's like, oh Reloaded. Exactly. That was the thing. At the end of Reloaded, I thought that. So when Revolution starts- Because Neo does like a Neo thing. Right. And it's like, oh wait, maybe we're still in the Matrix. Right. Dream within a dream.

Right, which I thought was a cool area. It's like, not only has this thing been happening for hundreds of thousands of years, this keeps repeating itself. Or thousands, not hundreds of thousands. Hundreds, whatever. But it keeps repeating itself over and over again. But also, even that level. Like, this is so deep, you're never going to get to the bottom of it you know but i don't think that's what they're going

for i think the reveal that neo is the one like of one of many that's what they're going for right you know that's the that's the sort of big twist to establish a whole new like visual matrix too it's it's it's a little it's a little confusing especially after a movie where we explain a lot it's confusing and not explained is the best way to put it well let's get to because we're right there so you know there's a lot of fighting over like

we should take this ship there and this ship there and the audience is like what I don't even know and they start interrogating Bane they're like why is this guy a cunt on his arms he wakes up I don't know. I'm doing a kind of an Agent Smith voice. But not as good as your impression. He would not make Mad TV. He wouldn't even get a callback.

Which you're already, I mean, you're in talks. Can I say that? Are we allowed to say that? You're in the pool. They put a pin in you. They put a pin in me? Yeah. What were we going to say? So Bane, yeah. Bane's a problem. They're trying pin in me? Yeah. What were we going to say? So Bane, yeah. Bane's a problem. They're trying to deal with him.

He, like in a little side scene, he stabs a nice lady with red hair. Not nice of him. We talk about, I feel like the Bane thing is this movie trying to have it both ways, right? I think they just thought, like, we need an action beat. Because these movies are very dependent on action beats.

Maybe almost two. You know, both of them are. Like the Wachowskis are obviously like big ideas, big ideas, big ideas. And then we'll have an action scene. Right. Yeah. But we talked about last week of like whether or not we thought bringing Smith back was the right idea. Right.

Yeah. Because it makes the world feel a little small. So you're saying Bane is them being like we brought back Smith, but we didn't. Yeah. And the way they play this, it's like so confusing because it takes Neo so long to figure it out. And the conversation goes on for so long that I'm watching it going, are they betting that we haven't figured out that he's Smith yet? But you already know he has to be Smith. No, we know he's Smith. Because they fucking end the last movie on him.

They put such a fine point on him. You have six months to stew on it. I think it's more, what's he going to do, right? I think this is the least interesting thing about this movie though so i do too but i almost like the idea of like if there wasn't the film in between if this was what happened at the beginning of reloaded or if revolutions was too i almost like the idea of like smith is dead and then the film starts out and there's a new weird guy and you're like what and it's like smith has transcended this he went

to the spirit of someone else and now the the villain is Smith in a new form. But the film is doing... They're doing so many things with Smith at the same time. It's like... I agree. The main stuff is a waste of time, and it's also just a sort of story mechanic to blind Neo. Yeah. Okay, so just to rush through the story part

quickly. They split into two ships. They split into two ships. Mr. Anderson. What? Do you recognize me? Yes, we talked about it. Jesus. Niobe gives Neo and Trinity her ship. What? I can't be. It's not possible. I'm going to respond to everything you're saying as if I'm Neo in that scene.

And then everyone else goes off in another ship. But how? I don't know. And then so Neo and Trinity are going to go to the Machine City to try and make peace with the machines. Impossible. That's what they say. But Bane has stowed away on that ship.

He almost, he attacks Trinity, but doesn't kill her. Yes. And then he fights Neo and blinds him with like an electrical, I don't know, cord. No, I won't believe it. Well, at this point, Neo definitely believes it because he can see him. They like sear the flesh over his eyes. Yeah, it looks gross. It looks real gross.

Real gross. But I mean, also, and this is what I was talking about earlier when I said this movie is really kind of almost mean to the audience. Who watching at this point is like, are you kidding me? The hero guy? Yeah. He's blind and sad now? And he's got beautiful eyes. Very nice eyes.

Very nice eyes. He's a good looking guy. Like that's your move? Is you're going to, oh, okay. And pretty early on in the film. Pretty early. It's pretty much the end of the first act. Pretty early on.

Jesus. And so, and Neo, while blind, he can still see this. The idea, I think, is that it, like, elevates his sort of consciousness to some new level where he can see into the code of the real world. He becomes Matrix Daredevil. Yeah, good call. Yeah. And he sees Smith, like, sunglasses and all.

Yeah. In, like, this guy's's consciousness and he smashes his head open. Yeah it's weird that the sunglasses are that much a part of his being. Hey man he really loves those sunglasses and so now it's like okay so here's where we are with the movie

Neo and Trinity, Neo now blind are going to try and fly to the machine city. Niobe Morpheus Link, you know, the Harold Perrineau character, a bunch of schmoes. Which, once again, it's like, God, if that had just been Dozer, I understand why they didn't want to bring him back.

It's Tank, good Lord, three episodes in a row. I keep on thinking I got it right. If that had just been Tank, it would be so much easier to be invested in that just because, like, it's so, they're putting so much on just cause like it's so I like him I love Parano I just wish Parano was in the first one almost like maybe that would make it all better that would be better one thing I want to point out he's really

small what are you looking up something from merchandise spotlight we'll get to there's an actor called I think his name is Leitchie Holm. Do you remember this guy? No. Okay, he's not in it much.

He has basically one scene. He plays a character called, boy, Sparks. Okay. And there's a scene where he's sitting in the other ship, and they fire up the engine, and he's like, can you clean the windshields too? He's kind of a little funny. Do engine. He's like, can you clean the windshields too? He's kind of like a little funny. Do you remember this guy?

Really? Yeah. For some reason, this kid who has kind of a distinct profile gotten thrown into discussion for casting of the Joker for the Dark Knight. Now, it was always hard to tell that whether or not this was real or like maybe his agent had thrown him into the mix like somehow had late but it would always be like in consideration for the joker and it'd be like five names you'd heard of and then this fucker yeah and it was like it's just and the only thing anyone knew him was was like well he's kind of funny in like one scene of the matrix

revolutions can you show me a picture of this guy geez that's so weird he's like an australian actor anyway just wanted to mention him now i recognize because i just remember him from this brief like you know internet spasm sort of in the glory old days you know yeah and uh it was weird it was weird People used to be like, well, maybe they'll cast him. He's an interesting, like, ooh, out of the, and everyone was like, what the fuck are you talking about? It was one of those things, it took on a life of its own. It was very hard to tell if it was real. Yeah.

If it was ever real. Yeah. Anyway. So he's on that other ship. That other ship's going back to Zion to maybe rescue Zion. Okay. Right? That's the story now.

Yeah. So let's, now let's move over to Zion. Zion's Last Stand, which also makes sense as a plot for The Matrix 2. Totally. You know, like Matrix 1 is about like fucking taking down The Matrix. Matrix 1 is about fucking Zion. We haven't seen

it yet. No, I'm saying as a direct sequel, it makes more sense than as the third film. Yeah, well I think their argument is like, well in Matrix 2, you meet Zion and you get to like it or whatever. I don't know if that's true, but they're trying to make you like it. Take a stroll. My roommate Alec pointed this out to me last night.

He was like, what's with Zion? It's all either young people, like teens to 20s, and then old people. Where are the middle-aged people of Zion? Where are they? Also, their clothes are all dirty. They don't have any laundry beds. What's going on? Everybody's dirty. The poet laureate.

Himself. Oh, boy. Boy, are they dirty people. Very dirty. But anyway. So, yeah, well, whatever. And then in third, now you're invested in Zion and you want it defended. Now, I don't think that works. I think you're like, Zion Schmeier. Yeah.

Who gives a shit? And it also feels like the time we spend in Zion, the second way feels like you're spending too much time in a rest stop. You're like, get the fuck out of here. Boring. You're on a road trip and you spend like two hours at a rest stop. And you're like, can we get back on the road? You're like at the Albany bus station trying to transfer somewhere. Because nothing interesting happens in Zion.

Whereas in this movie, they give us this big action sequence that takes place with characters we don't care about that's the problem now i would say especially re-watching this i remember when i saw it the first time in theaters i was like that was boring and i hated how cliched the old captain was it's very unengaging i think for a robot fight which i love robots i think it's good i now like it a lot more importantly i think it looks great yeah you think it. No, I think it's good. I now like it a lot. More importantly, I think it looks great. Yeah. You think it just looks fine? I think it looks really good compared to what things look like now. Yeah, yeah.

You're saying like the actual quality of the effects and everything? Yeah, totally. I think it looks good. I just think like the Wachowskis are really underrated as action directors at this point. They are. They do very clear stuff. I agree. The sequence doesn't, I don't know. So wait, why do you like this movie better than Reloaded?

You don't seem very hot on any of it. Here's the thing. I intellectually respect Reloaded more. Yeah. I think as a piece of like storytelling, this is more engaging and more satisfying. But you don't like, if you don't like this sequence, then I'm not sure, because that's a lot

of the movie. The Neo stuff kind of works for me in this film. I like Neo's story in this film. Okay, alright. Yeah. Well, so to at least just briefly, the Zion defense, yeah, they're in these mech suits. I don't love the mech suits, but I also, I fucking love robots. Any movie that has robots gets knocked up. I think the mech suits are real cool. I mean,

it's anime influenced much like a lot of their stuff. Like, this is right out of like, a lot of anime series where it's like, you know, guys in mech suits are real cool. I mean, it's anime influenced much like a lot of their stuff. Like, this is right out of, like, a lot of anime series where it's, like, you know, guys in mecha suits. Yeah, I also want to see someone... I feel like all the mech suits we've had in films

in, like, American live-action movies have all had, like, a pretty similar design. I want someone to come in with, like, a new fucking crazy form of mech suit, you know? What was there... What before this

are you thinking of? The Power Loer and aliens. Great stuff. And after this, the, the APC thing. No, of course.

Right. After this, after this. Avatar. Yeah. I just think they're, they're always like sort of a similar sort of like shape and build. I think they're cool in this.

I like their guns and I like the chains of, uh, uh, bullets that they're. Yeah. I like how they look. I like how they move around. Yeah.

I like the squids a lot. Yeah. The sentinels are cool. And I like what they look like is like how they move around. I like the squids a lot. Yeah, the sentinels are cool. And I like what they look like as weird flowing rivers of metal. Babyface Edmonds? Yeah, it's great. You want to get to Babyface? Well, we'll get there. But I agree with you that the downside is it's like

Captain Mifune and the kid. Those characters you don't know. The kid fucking sucks. He sucks. The kid is out of a Johnny Tsunami. out of like a Johnny Tsunami. He's like a Johnny Tsunami side character. Clayton Watson is the actor. You haven't heard that name again for a reason. First of all, they make a big point of him being 16.

He's clearly 29. Yeah, yeah. That's a good point. So it's like a 29-year-old trying to play a kid. He's now 39. Right. Right. So he was like 27 or whatever.

Yeah, he was in his mid-20s. Right. And like the way he plays 10 years younger than he is is just by going like, gee whiz, Mr. Mifune. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like a real Eddie Haskell performance. Yeah, no, I think Nathaniel Lees, who's like a Samoan actor who plays Captain Mifune, is kind of fun and cool to look at.

He's got a great face. He's got a great face. He's got cool presence. Nice, nice like accent. You know, just like he's finding it, but you're just like,

well, but who is this guy? I haven't spent enough time with this guy. And it's very just hacky, grizzled, like army captain. You might as well have a cigar. Now,

how cool would it be if Morpheus was fucking in that suit? I agree with that. That's a good call. Especially after Reloaded, is everyone being like, I don't know if we should trust Morpheus. Especially since, I guess for the story, it would make a little less sense. But I don't know if we should trust Morpheus especially since I guess for the story

it would make a little less sense but Harry Lennox who doesn't like Morpheus could just be like just go get in a fucking you know APC yeah

I was just about to say though Mifune doesn't I will say Stephen Lang does the same bit in Avatar like I'm a grizzled old cigar chump and he nails it

in a very similar he's great Stephen Lang's great in Avatar it can work. In the same suit with the chain of bullets and everything. And we also, there's like a weird side mission of what's her name? A Nona Gay's character. Z. And this super

hot butch lady. Yeah, some new friend of her. I don't know who she is but she's cool. Some new Switch, you know? You can't replace Switch. There'll never be another switch time and place i just i'm desperately looking for a switch anywhere i can find oh yeah um but they have like a side mission of trying to like yeah they're making some homemade bombs and then they have like a rocket launcher but we also haven't really spent enough time with her

well also like the the and this is something my friend our friend david or like talks about a lot which is like sort of the the uh the location needs to make sense and the geography of zion needs to make sense and they're like attacking the drills and it's not clear it's like are we above okay it's very where is this yeah and it's never makes any sense they just have to shoot the missiles at some drills yeah i like i pretty much like all the non-zion stuff in this movie. I think the Zion stuff looks good. I like the designs of most of the things. I don't love it, but B-minus, fun enough, the non-Zion stuff, yeah.

There's a lot of it. There's a lot of it. And, you know, yeah, that's a problem. Yeah. And then you're cutting to Morpheus and Niobe piloting their hovercraft like through the sewer system to try and get back to Zion that also goes on too long. And it just feels like pick your battles. Like if you want us to care about

what Morpheus is doing and you want us to care about Zion put them together. Put them together. And it's like it's a lot it's a lot of time wasted on something that like the hovercraft eventually gets there they like detonate their EMP and take out a bunch of squids and then the reaction is like yeah great more coming so you know who cares like and we're like we'll just watch 20 minutes of them fucking flying through the sewers

in a race against time to get there yeah there's also this thing of like nobody gets a lot more screen time in this movie i think she i think jada's great love jada i love jada and let's just quick jada corner here like chris rock made that bit at the oscars about like you know that's like saying like you're not gonna go to the super bowl when no one asked you to go or whatever perfectly good joke directed maybe at the wrong person i i like the idea of that joke yeah but the problem of it is i think she should have been nominated is one of the most underrated actresses absolutely agreed that she wasn't even in the oscar conversation so Pinkett is one of the most underrated actresses. Absolutely. Agreed that she wasn't even in the Oscar conversation so her protesting is kind of silly but on the other hand the fact that she wasn't even in the Oscar

conversation is the entire reason why the Oscars are fucked up right now. Like I think she should have been nominated for Collateral. I think she's so fucking good in that movie. I just yeah I'm just going to run down a few great Jada's performances. Magic Mike XXL is an incredible exceptional performance. Set It Off which have you ever seen that movie? It's a terrific movie. just going to run down a few great Jada's magic. Mike XXL is, I mean, incredible, exceptional performance. Set it off,

which have you ever seen that movie? It's a terrific movie. She's maybe the best part. Queen Latifah is incredible in it too, but great, cool, like heist movie from the nineties. Uh,

what else is she good? And she's really good in a bamboozled. Yeah. Where she plays like the sort of militant sister of the main, of the Damon Wayans character. Love that performance. She's great in Ali. Yeah. And has like electric chemistry

with Will Smith. Yeah, surprisingly. Menace to society. Yeah, right. That was the start of her career. I love her in Collateral, like you say. And you know, then she basically kind of stopped making movies. Yeah, she did Hawthorne for like six years? No, that was two years.

That wasn't a long run. Since Collateral, she's done the Madagascar movies. She did XXL and she did Reign Over Me. She's like the third lead in that movie. Oh, she's good in that. It's an underwritten part, but she's good in that.

Let us not forget her metal band, Wicked Wisdom. Yeah, okay. Ben, yes. Thank you. She was in Gotham for a year. Of Fish Mooney. Of Fish Mooney. But yeah, you know about Jada Pinkett Smith's shredding new metal band, right? I vaguely am aware that she is in a new metal band. She's the front woman for a new metal band under an alias, right?

Doesn't she use a different name? Yeah, yeah. And she wears a dread wig? Yeah, it's Wilford Brimley is her, no, no. She dresses like Rob Zombie. She's got like dread wig and you can't see her face and she wears like UFO pants. Do you think that was an influence by the Wachowskis or that's why they first started to be friends? Great question.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I just want to say me and my brother. Wicked wisdom. That's a great pull, Ben. Her name in the band is Pocket Honor. Thank you. Well, well. I knew that was worth digging up.

Yeah, she looks cool. She looks like Rob Zombie, right? I mean, she basically just looks like a slightly crazier Jada Pinkett Smith, but you know. But like a Jada Pinkett Smith who's like fucking down to hacky sack. She also directed a movie called The Human Contract starring Jason Clarke and Paz Vega that I've literally never heard of. She wrote and directed it in 2008. I just want to say, me and my brother saw Rain Over Me in theaters.

It's a weird movie. Very weird. It's about a 9-11 survivor. His family was killed in 9-11 who plays the PS2 game Shadow of the Colossus a lot. And he reacts to the tragedy by becoming Tim Burton visually. Yes.

And he's sad. But it's incredible how much of the movie is about him playing the game Shadow of the Colossus. And then there's a court scene at the end where BJ Novak is a lawyer who's trying to do something bad to him. I don't even know what. Maybe take a kid from him or something. I believe. And Don Sutherland is the judge. Is that right?

This is what I'm getting to. Don Cheadle is the lawyer representing. He's his friend. He's representing Adam Sandler. Donald Sutherland out of nowhere plays the judge. the judge of judging the judge is the judge i'm the judge but he's the judge and there's a scene i'm donald sutherland i'm the judge and it's sutherland at his most like bushy eyebrowed you know like you know it's adam sandler come on come, come on, come on, man. Come on, run with my story.

He's Tim Burton. That's the end of it. That's the end of it. That's the end of it. Okay. But you know what I mean? When Sutherland really eyebrows out, when he really lets them grow out. The pussy willows.

Those Sutherland pussy willows. And he really droops. He's like, oh, let's have my face droop this time. And in the scene, he turns on BJ Novak like starts to side with Adam Sandler I guess like you know he's like he's finding a lot of sympathy in this argument that's being made and BJ Novak says something and he just turns to me goes shut up shut up shut up and me and my brother would do that to each other for years it is bonkers I hit. It's like out of nowhere. I hit myself in the face with my microphone laughing at that.

Shut up. I was so taken aback by that. I hit myself in the tooth. Anyway, so J.D., we love Jada Pinkett Smith. She's great. Do you have a note on Niobe, on her performances in Niobe? Well, okay, so this franchise starts becoming a lot about love. So, you know, this franchise starts becoming a lot about love.

Like the Neo Trinity relationship becomes like a big fulcrum for these films to work emotionally. Right. Two and three. And then the idea for three is like, let's put Morpheus in a very specific mission where he spends a lot of one on one time with Niobe. Sitting next to each other. All four of these characters, Neo Trinity, Morpheusheus, and Naomi are so fucking stoic and emotionally reserved. Look, the real world is a sad place. Impenetrable, you know?

Yes. So the idea is supposed to be like, oh, here's two people who are in love and will sacrifice anything. Here are two people who can't admit how they feel for each other. Right, that's the thing with Morpheus and Naomi, right, is that they're too busy and I guess I'm not a, I don't really care. I like the computer programs. I don't either. I don't either. That's what I'm saying. I think Jade is cool. I do too. And I like that in this movie she just takes her shirt off and she's in like her kind of undershirt and she's just like working hard.

I just think it's a little bit of a miscalculation to be like, the thing we should do with Morpheus is make his entire subplot about spending time with Niobe. Now I'll say it's nice to see the man take a backseat for a change, I guess. But it's not like Nobi gets a lot. No. Like, in comparison to him.

She just is doing the action, which is driving the car, essentially. You know, she's piloting this hovercraft. They're, like, both splitting one sleeve of saltines for dinner. Do you know what I'm saying? And she gets a few more saltines. She gets more saltines, but it's like, come on, this isn't a fucking dinner. What are you talking about? Good call. So, like it.

Saltines. A sleeve of saltines. So that's Zion. Moving back over to Neo and Trinity, they journey to the machine city. The logic, again, geography, we don't understand this. Nope. Neo's super blind. We don't understand where the city is in relation to Zion. And he's just like, kind of that-a-way. And so Trinity's like, I trust you. We don't understand this. Nope. Neo's super blind. We don't understand where the city is in relation to Zion.

And he's just like kind of that-a-way. And so Trinity's like, I trust you. We're going to go that-a-way. Because he's seeing the orange. They go to the machine city and there's like this attack of squids. And Neo just like puts his hand out and blows them all up. But there's still so many of them. There's a lot of them.

So they go up above the clouds. Yeah, Griffin's making a face that is a fair face to make. And basically, you emerge from the clouds, and it's like a renaissance painting for one second. It's like fluffy golden clouds and sunshine. And it's like, this is what the world is like above the scorched sky. No, is the implication that because the sun is up, right? It's like a beautiful full sun. Yeah. So it's like, because the sun is up, right? It's like a beautiful full sun. Yeah.

So it's like, oh, this is day. Is the implication that the robots created so much? This is a serious question. Humans did this. Humans did this. That we create so much pollution that we can't see the sun anymore? No, no. It's a bioweapon.

It's in the animatrix, so we'll get to it. We detonated like a nanobomb into the clouds and just accelerated pollution to such an extent that like the clouds never go away. Now we have super clouds. We're just blanketed in robot clouds, basically. It's cloud two, hyper cloud. Exactly. Callback.

You know what? You know what? You really got it. Thank you. Good callback. Yeah, I mean, this moment. Yeah, well, the real problem is Trinity goes, beautiful. You're just like, okay, all right.

Neo can't see it because he's fucking blind. Everything already looks like the sun to him. It's a fair point. Neo's vision is like when you stare at the sun for a while and you close your eyes and you see the remnants. That's like what he can see now. Well, that's Trinity's little special moment before the ship crashes and she gets impaled on a bunch of tendrils. Yeah, they all puncture. I totally forgotten this had happened, by the way.

Trinity dies? Yeah. You just don't remember that she dies. I remember so little of this movie. That's a real implication. That's just a real indict she dies. I remember so little of this movie. Well, that's a real implication. That's just a real indictment of how crappy your story is in this movie. You don't even remember what it is and that it ends with her death. She essentially just becomes Neo's chauffeur for most of this movie because he's blind.

He's blind. I mean, he needs a chauffeur. Yeah. He says, you're going to need to fly. Now driving Miss Daisy. Now you're the blind guy. Neo is Miss Daisy. Right.

Yeah. Hoke. Is that his name? Hoke. What blind guy in the back? Leo is Miss Daisy. Right, yeah. Hoke? Is that his name? Hoke? What's Morgan Freeman's name? Oh, I don't know. Hoke? Hoke? I think? Maybe? I don't know. Okay. We should do ten episodes on Driving Miss Daisy. Should we, though? Potting Miss Castie.

Talk about a movie that has been forgotten. Like it does not discuss much anymore. Well, I don't think it's forgotten. I think everyone was like, let's pretend that we really pulled an arm in Tom Zarian on that movie. Do you know what I'm saying? It's not like it slipped away. We were like, let's pretend that we never saw that.

I just got an email about a high school musical for open audition if you're interested. What's the age range they're looking for? I can't sing or dance. Do you think that's relevant? Possibly? Okay. Yeah, I don't know. So Trinity dies. It sucks. Yeah, it blows. It's a long

death scene. She has like a 20 minute speech. She basically starts with like, I have a dream. It's just like we're going to be here for a while can i say something though uh i think her performance here is very good she's a good actress this is what i like about it good actress she's not overplaying the death no a lot of people when they're doing death scenes play the pain that thing and she's just playing that she's weak it's like she's falling asleep it's leaving her you know the the fluids are leaving her exactly and it's just she's very sedated the like she's falling asleep. It's leaving her. You know, the fluids are leaving her. Exactly.

And it's just, she's very sedated. The whole thing's in an actual whisper and she's really focused. She, you know, she knows she has a little time left

and she wants to say what she has to say. I think she does a really good job with this. It goes on very, very long. Quite long. I like stood up,

went to the bathroom, came back because I've seen this movie a million times and it was still going on and I was like, wow, it's, wow, it's really that long. I wish I had saved my pretzels.

I ate them all during the burly. Should have gotten more pretzels. Yeah, I should have, yeah. So Trinity's dead, and I think the real reason it's a bummer is it just doesn't seem to serve any purpose, larger purpose in the story. No, she could have stayed alive. I mean, could have stayed alive, could not have.

I mean, I guess it would have been hard for her to get back after neo's end in this movie ask one of the sentinels be like hey can i hey can i hit your ride you got like a squid i can uh mount she rides on the back like falcor sounds good actually matrix four right squid falcor yeah and then neo goes to the machine city uh-huh and someids, a lot of squids come out of some holes in a machine. Yeah, they're all gonna attack him

and then he's like, oh, he's like, I just want to say something. And so, you know, as you do, these squids form the shape

of a, you know, skyscraper size baby face. Yes. Wait, what size? Skyscraper size. Very big.

Huge, you could say. Like a huge baby face. The. Wait, what size? Skyscraper size. Very big. Huge, you could say. Like a huge baby face. The scale is large. I love it. I was very excited. So Ben, were you kind of like a little sleepy for this whole movie and then you really perked up for this scene two hours in? Yeah, because I also I didn't like that it was just like the same sentinels.

They didn't mix it up. Too many squids. It was boring, but then they put them all together made a giant baby-faced sentinel thing and i was all aboard i love it thank you i i what what can you say uh you hear that uh lana lily wachowski ben thanks you for your work, for your contributions to big cinema. I appreciated it. In a big way. When we release a book under our blank check press, our imprint, right? We should.

Ben's book, the collected film criticism of Ben Hosley, will just be called Big Cinema, right? That will be his big contribution to the landscape of film criticism, his big cinema. Absolutely. The collected writings of Ben Hoss. Oh, boy. Not big enough. That's Ben's complaint. Bigger!

Ben's complaint is that the book's not like coffee table sized. Yeah, he needs a coffee table book. Oh, boy. I'm hitting a wall. Yeah, actually, we have our other record. Oh, yeah? Okay, so we're near the end of the movie. Yeah, so let's just power through. Yeah, boy. I'm hitting a wall. Yeah, actually, we have our other record. Oh, yeah? Okay, so we're near the end of the movie. Yeah, so let's just power through.

Yeah, okay. Oh, yeah. Oh, sorry. They talk to the baby. They talk to the baby, the baby, and he says to the baby, like, you've got a problem on your hands, such as Agent Smith. He's basically ruined the Matrix. Yeah. I mean, one assumes that's not good for the humans, you know, that he's overriding.

We have a common enemy. The enemy, my enemy, is my friend. Let's team up. And they're like, well, what do you want? And he says, you know, that he's overriding. We have a common enemy. The enemy, my enemy is my friend. Let's team up. And they're like, well, what do you want? And he says, you know, peace. I want peace between humans and machines. Yeah. And so they plug him into the Matrix in quite a scene.

That's cool. Yeah. All these tendrils kind of hook up to him. And then there's this final tendril that like snakes up like to go into his back of his neck. Yeah. And when this happened, my friend Michael Cross leaned over to me and he said, major anal play. Because this looks like it's going to go into his butt.

It sort of like flurrily teases up his body. And he was pretty convinced this was just going to jack into his ass. Yeah, it would have been cool. So then Neo goes into the Matrix to fight Agent Smith, who is now every person in the Matrix.

But most of them don't want to fight. Most of them just want to watch. 99.9% of them, one could say. It's like if Evander Holyfield was made up entirely of Holyfields in the audience. It was not a tournament of Holyfields watching one Holyfield. Yeah. Evander Holyfield fighting. Holyfield Tyson was what I meant to say.

I get it. How do you feel about the look of this scene? You know, it's like, you know how it rained all the time? More rain. You know how it was really green? Greener. Yeah. You know how it was like, you know?

So what do you like about this movie? I'm genuinely interested. I don't know. It's weird. Maybe it was just my expectations were so low. Yeah, sure. But I found this one easier to watch, and I found it more emotionally fulfilling, I guess. The Neo arc is good.

I think this fight's okay. I like that it's not him fighting all of them. I do like that it's one-on-one. Yeah, I mean the fight, like everything in this movie, maybe lasts a couple minutes too long. It's basically just them punching each other and they're equally strong. Pretty flubbery too. Yeah. pretty flubbery too yeah i think it mostly avoids the flubbery until a final moment where neo's like fist like in like slow-mo punches him in the jaw and they just turn into cartoons when

that happens and it feels like they did that just to be like let's see if we can do this and like technologically if we can pull it off you know they were 70 there but they couldn't do it then anyone had gotten yet but it feels like they did that just to break the barrier you know? I know and it's also like after five minutes of fighting so you're like this I think there's also this idea because Smith says to Neo like why do you keep fighting me? Like why?

Why are you doing this? Yeah. So you need I guess a little bit of a drag out Neo keeps standing back up. He's like a standing man from A Bridge of Spies. Vulture, Muzak, or whatever. So Neo's been winning. Great movie.

He's an important actor. Mark Rylance, 2015. 2015. Oh, he won in 2016. So Neo, he stands back up. Smith. No. Smith defeats Neo Technically Smith turns Neo into a Smith

And then Neo's like nope and then blows everyone There's this line where Neo says Because I choose to and I think the Implication here is that Neo is Letting he chooses To let Smith take him over rather than Resisting him and that's what uh you know you know fuck smith over i do like hugo weaving's line where he's like finally i did it

is it over yeah and then they all start to blow up and he's like it's not fair yeah i like i like i think he's good i like hugo weaving yeah but he's just been so sidelined for a lot of this movie yeah he's not in it at all to build up to this like final battle of like this is Luke versus Darth you know and it's like you know as they did in Reloaded they the Wachowski subvert a lot and sometimes it works better

than it doesn't and sometimes it doesn't work very well I think both these movies have like a little bit of a like a um robbing Peter to pay Paul thing. You know? There were so many things they wanted to pull off that they had to take away

from other things. I mean, here's a thing I do like about this movie. I actually think this film flows better cinematically. I get you. I get you. I think Reloaded is so overstuffed

that it feels like a little coverage-y to me. It feels a little less precise. You know, we talk a lot lot about like the language of cinema. Yeah. But I do think there's this sort of like music to movies because movies are like, you know, I think we both agree are the best art form because it combines everything. Absolutely.

Music, visuals, performance, like, you know, movement. Right. And I will refer to like the music of movies in the way that it's sort of like, if you're listening to a song, you don't really try to pick out those separate instruments. You know, it just feels like one thing. It feels like that sound is what should have existed. Yeah. And Reloaded feels a little clunky to me.

Like, I'm like, that's an oboe. That's a violin. Even if I like some of the things that are being played, I'm recognizing the separate pieces in the orchestra. And this one has a sort of fluidity to it, a nice sort of rhythm to it. I think it's a lot cleaner

visually. It's a lot more practical. There's a lot less CGI in this movie. Until we get to the end, there's a lot of practical sets because they're in Zion of them being in the inside of ships and rooms. There's a lot of CGI in this movie though because all the machine stuff is CGI. Two felt like it had more. It also had more CGI bodies and stuff.

You think. Yeah. I mean you're thinking of where it's more the seams show. Yes. Yeah. And there's more sort of like dialogue character moment scenes in this because a lot of Reloaded are sort of these like you know these intellectual debates. And when you have characters

having emotional exchanges and actors are able to play off each other in that sort of way it leads to that sort of music of it. I don't know if I can really rationalize why I like this one more or less. They're honestly pretty close for me right now. There are a lot of people who think one and the other. I don't think it's a settled debate.

I like the other one because it's less it's more illogical and more machine like and that's what i like about these movies yeah i think it's a little more cohesive as a film but i i almost look at the two now as like alternate reality versions because they each sort of have their ending i mean if you imagine that reloaded ends after the architect scene right it's like that's that could be the end of the matrix saga it's just him realizing this is going to happen over and over again and he saves tr and that's, you know, it's sort of a bleak ending of like, well, now this matters. Or it can be the film where it's

all about him fighting Mr. Smith, Agent Smith and it's like a shadow thing and that's what it's about. It just feels like these are alternate tracks. I don't know. It's an interesting franchise. It is. Now, I have a question for you. What happens at the end of this movie?

Because I feel like most people couldn't answer that question. Like, what is Neo's achievement? Neo explodes everything, and then he's dead, and then the Oracle and the little girl- Sati, yes. Sit on a bench. The Matrix reboots. Yeah. You see the cat from the first movie right

you know and that that suggests like the matrix is and you see literally the code like rewrite itself to be an empty city sati is lying on the sidewalk like she's dead and then the cat glitches and she comes back to life and she goes and sits on a bench and there's a sunrise you also see the oracle's body in the crater where smith. Right, right, because that was the Oracle. The Smith that Neo fights is the Oracle Smith. Is the Oracle Smith, right. He has all these lines about, like, I've seen it, I'm going to beat you. Yeah, and then they sit on a bench and they look at a sunrise, and she goes, what do you think of it?

And the Oracle's like, it's very pretty, implying that, what's her name, Sati? Sati. Sati made the sunrise, even though she previously had no purpose, and then she says, I made it for Neo. Do you think he's going to come back? So you're forgetting something. She says, I think he will. Yeah, she says he might.

What am I forgetting? Who else is in this final scene? Seraph? No, well, yeah, he's there. Oracle, Seraph, Sati. Who? The architect. Oh, right, yeah. He shows he shows up yeah and he's like and he says to the oracle you've played a dangerous game which is sort of implying you know the

dangerous game being what she did with the one pushing him towards making the other choice yeah and also i think letting smith absorb her yeah which was like a you know obviously was letting giving him the keys to the castle yeah and she's like you know whatever change is always dangerous whatever and then you know what the conversation they have is like the new world of the matrix is if you don't want to be in the matrix you're not in the matrix that's all about choice that's the piece that's been struck right everything's about choice rather than having to rescue people in this sort of eternal conflict it's gonna be like if you want to be in the matrix you you can be in the Matrix. Because these movies are always kind of saying, like, they get that, like, maybe you want to be in the Matrix.

Matrix is much easier. Yeah. Cypher is not like a classic villain because he won, like, in the first movie. His idea that maybe he just doesn't want to, like, drink piss water and, like, wear a dirty sweater is like, yeah, maybe he doesn't want to do that. Yeah. So it's like, instead of this eternal struggle, like, why don't we just have it both ways? Right.

You get your power. They get their life. Yeah. And people who aren't dissatisfied with that can maybe not do it. Yeah. So that's the movie. I got to explain it. You can take it from that what you will.

Look, I'm good. But there's a real arc. I think I'm going to keep shooting on it over the rest of the series. I bought the Blu-ray box set that has all these discs of appendixes. We'll talk about that stuff. So we'll get back around to that and the bonuses. Next week, we'll be back with Speed Racer. Guests will be determined, but it might be plural guests.

Might be, might not be. Who knows? Might be nobody. We don't know. Might be nobody. We've had a lot of people want to talk about this film because it's a film that draws uh strong emotions but um as always uh thank you for listening uh please rate review and subscribe um no time for burger report today no time damn it for reading reviews uh the studio's double booked so we have to get out of here right now

uh and as always just just keep on making those sunrises. Don't do another thing like you did last time. Let's start the episode. I'm worried about that. Let's start the episode. This has been a UCB Comedy Production. Check out our other shows on the UCB Comedy Podcast Network. We'll see you next time.