Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Polar Express with Joey Sims

Episode Date: November 29, 2020

In the final days of 2020, Blank Check enters Zemeckis' motion capture technology period with The Polar Express. Joey Sims joins as we discuss the nuance of the Train Conductor character, North Pole logic and delve into everyone's personal relationship to the holiday season and Christmas. Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch @ shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com

Well, you coming? Where? Why? To the Zoom call, of course. This is the Podler Xcast. Ben clearing his throat, which I assume he will cut out in the middle of that, really drove it home. That was really good. The Podler Xcast cash it'd be great that that that

that ben clearing his throat was like the dad you know at who brought uh his kid to see this movie uh just clear like just completely bored by this movie like in the middle of the multiplex this is one of those movies where i i would pay anything to see a dad at a bar trying to explain it to the other bar flies the evening after he brought his kids to see a matinee like the person you're describing david i want to see that guy complaining to the bartender about this fucking movie he's like complaining but he's also saying the whole plot and then there's this hobo

I guess he's on the roof I don't really get I don't want to see that guy making jokes about it I want to see that guy actually angry complaining to a bartender who feigns interest. Hello, everybody. Do you hear that?

We need a little dinging sound, right? A little jingle jangle. What do you mean, David? I just did the jangle. You couldn't hear it? Now I can hear it. See? You weren't believing earlier, but the jingle jangle was there the entire time.

Of course. Right. That's what it was. This, of course, is Blank Check with Griffin and David. My name is Griffin. And I'm David. I'm David!

Hot, hot! This is a podcast about filmographies directed to a massive success early on in their career are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want

and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby and I want to just make something incredibly incredibly clear

from the beginning of this episode on this podcast there is just one rule okay never ever let it cool On this podcast, there is just one rule. Okay. Never ever let it cool. I can't believe you've never seen this movie, Griffin.

That's the only rule. You've never seen it. Only rule. That's the only rule. Genocide allowed on the train. Encouraged. Absolutely. With the hot chocolate. Only the strongest survive yeah look look if if if kids aren't strong enough to

stay alive that's on them but hot chocolate that's on you never ever let it cool children lose their ticket the ticket which only sort of exists in the physical world, if they lose it, then they're out of luck. Joey, I love, I love the 20 minutes of this movie that are about a stern, emotionally shut off white man hastily escorting a young black girl off a train in 1955. You don't know that it's 1955. It's just a generally sort of you know leave it to beaver

time in america david i looked it up and zemeckis said it was explicitly 1955 that was his intention even though it's not stated he's like right like the the eisenhower stevenson election is sort of building steam like that that's where he wants you to think you're you know he wants you in that mindset well there are all those scenes where you see news footage of the conductor shaking hands with whoever the president is right of course oh boy what there's so much to dig into here so david had you seen it um yeah but like on tv i certainly didn't see it in theaters I remember watching I would say probably 80% of it on TV like just out of like okay I guess I'll I'll officially hate this um and that's it I've never seen it again when you I mean we're gonna get into we'll introduce you and we're gonna get into this

but when you said like you know Polar Express I've never been more flabbergasted. I had no idea. It's like some dark secret you've been keeping. I just did not know that was an interest of yours. Let's also say like five years earlier, the two of you probably would have seen this movie together. Sure. Right. I mean, because no, but yeah, by the time it came out i was i was in college

out of completism if nothing else but uh but yes sure but i i just think it's interesting because not introducing the guest net yet not introducing the guest but the two of your brothers yes good point good point and you were both sending your best guesses when this film came out even if you were not children you know but you were you were young young adults and we also just we would as as the guest said uh you know we would we would see the big movies especially if you know a potential awards movie maybe or something like that you know it is just kind of funny for this movie in 2005 that joey you have strong opinions on it and david hay watched it on tv casually 10 years later exactly that's exactly that is correct you nailed it right

right yeah yeah i wasn't sure go on go on no just gonna say especially that flip of it i know you're a big film fan as well but david is the one who watches stuff obsessively it is odd that you're the one who like saw it and imprinted on it in any sort of way yeah especially since i would have thought that david might have might have an opinion because it is a significant movie not in its uh in its use of technology and in being the gr Griffin is shaking his head at that. Agreed, no, agreed, agreed. I thought you were going to throw out a hot take. No, it's like David keeps on throwing out his hot take that like Tron Legacy is the most important film the last 20 years.

And it's very similar to build, it's very easy to build a similar take around this movie. Which is why it perplexes me that david isn't more obsessed with this movie right because whether you believe it is a you know a a wonderful piece of cinema or not no one i think would question that i'm sorry i'm sorry what this is a pile of steaming shit we'll get to that ben this is on you you don't believe hard enough you didn't learn the lesson of the movie your your ticket does not say learned it does not say believe your ticket says scrooge no it says it says like uh what a ditch yeah it says ditch or i'd rather spend the whole movie with those fucking toys than watch any other part of this movie uh ben our finest film critic texted uh the two of us at i believe uh 1 15 a.m just

somewhere around there bah humbug and that's his full review he didn't say i'm watching it tonight he didn't say had just watched the polar express he just texted bah humbug and both of us knew exactly what had happened even though here's he doesn't even know that there's a christmas carol episode coming up um and by the way ben i would have really i would have guessed that this would have been one of the movies that you were like i didn't actually watch this one guys and i'm shocked right right that it is not well i love the book so i gave it a shot and man man oh man was i disappointed uh joey what were you gonna say five tangents ago our guest today a longtime brother of david sims uh joey c sims i was going to say that i thought um that david might have seen it for the first time last time

because he posted a very brief review on his uh on his letterbox, although I know that doesn't... Oh, you're letterboxing me. No, no, no. But the only reason, I do not use the box, but the only reason I'm aware of this is that I watched the movie with my roommate who asked me to name check him, so I'm making sure to do it right away. My roommate, Lane Montgomery, who did the theme song for a little little a little podcast this is the first

time this has ever been confirmed as blank check canon but you did not know lane montgomery and now through a series of circumstances the two of you live together and have been quarantining together the magic of blank check he reached out to to he just saw the listing on he saw it on facebook and he was like this looks like this looks great for me and also by the way as an aside like i think i did the theme music for your brother's podcast fuck yeah and then moved in on march 1st and then some other things happened perfect timing perfect timing yeah he texting me, the two of you playing Star Wars Monopoly together. I just keep on thinking of the two of you living together, and it seems like a really nice,

low-conflict sitcom, in my mind. Right. It's a sitcom with very little stakes. Yeah. He watched it, watched Polar Express with me last night, which he loved.

He loved that experience. He boarded the train. He was thrilled by the whole thing, than me last night which he loved he loved that experience he boarded the train um he he was thrilled um by the whole thing and then posted something about it on some form of social media i don't know what and then uh a friend of his texted him a friend who also follows david on the letterbox and texted him it just just texted him like did you and david sims both watch the movie the polar express last night yeah very understandably confused why why two people would be watching it for two different reasons but of course it's all connected here i'm i'll clear i'm gonna clarify this for for the fans and for you

know for everyone who cares well then let me also clarify for our our listeners the reason why random people would be watching polar express is this is a mini series on the films of robert zemeckis it's called podcast away and today we're talking about the polar express there i finished my intro one of his biggest hits right one of his biggest fucking hits maybe his third movie ever yeah well no is it because those back to the future is definitely messed yeah yeah maybe, maybe four. Maybe four. Castaway made a lot of money too, though. You know, he's got a lot of hits, but one of his biggest hits.

I don't... I'm quite persnickety about my letterbox. Like, you know, logging and all that stuff. You? Persnickety? About a site that allows you to catalog film opinions and watching habits? yes but um i am not always totally on top of logging things as like a rewatch if you know because like

letterbox will automatically do that if you've logged it on letterbox before but i i like i like so i'm not gonna like what happened like you, I think it probably logged it as a first viewing for me. Well, it's a first viewing in my, uh, in my letterbox life. Okay. So now it's been clarified for everybody. Wow. Um,

I had obviously never logged it before. Um, and my review was, that was some weird shit. And you know what? Stand by it. I just looked up the letterbox page and the top review I saw was our friend of the show, past and future guest, Patrick Willems,

Stop the Polar Express, I want to get off. Pretty good. Pretty perfectly said. Yeah. Yes. I mean, what can you say? Anyway, but okay. So with all the introducing done and all that,

there's just also, yeah, it's worth noting that Joey's on this episode. You know, your sister was on, okay. Your sister was on Julie and Julia. Makes sense. From my name and on Julie and Julia. She loves to cook. Like, that makes sense. Joey, you were on our Lost in Space episode.

Obviously, that was a sibling choice you were on ratatouille but uh but this was the first time in a while you were like well uh just just fyi i heard you're doing zemeckis i might be interested in talking about the polar express so let's delve into this joey i don't understand it when did this happen? Yes. How? Why? When? I was thinking about this beforehand, knowing I was going to be asked this. But unfortunately, as David can attest to from knowing me so well, I have a really bad memory. You do. Terrible memory.

And I do not remember when I first saw this movie or what specifically first began a weird interest in it i remember that it was not in theaters because i did not see this movie in theaters that would help to explain it if i could come on and say like look guys i saw this thing when it came out in like imax in 3d because that is yeah the right way because that is the form in which even certain critics from what i remember when it came out, who saw it in that form were like, Listen, this movie's weird, but you gotta see what this shit looks like in 3D. IMAX looks crazy. If you saw it in the fucking holiday season and walking in and out of the theater, you were greeted by fucking lights and carolers and a cup of nog or whatever. I could see you just being like

i don't know fucking christmas shit it gets to me right no i don't have anything like that uh for you i probably i don't know just watch it on probably tv was the first time and um i don't know it's just taken in by i think one thing i would say is that the tripping up point for a lot of people in this movie and the thing that they just can't get past is that, and we're going to talk about this. I'm sure some more is that the characters look creepy as hell. Which characters? Wait a second.

Wait, wait, wait, which characters look creepy? There's a lot of weird weird interesting stuff happening in this movie in terms of how bizarre the bizarrely the screenplay is constructed or not really structured in terms of how

creepy it is not in the in their in their faces but in the way that the characters behave yeah especially all of the adult characters in the tone the tonal mess of it the fact that it just turns into a different movie like every scene yeah um and then i don't know other than that i don't know there's just something about it no it is a fascinating object it is something i i could see myself getting dangerously attached to trying to make sense of it watching it too many times trying to like it could become an old dog type fixation for me and i'm putting real

bumpers on myself from going down the rabbit hole on this one because it's not a movie you i think what i expect or whatever i know the movie's weird so that's not true but you know it's not just a sappy bad movie like that would almost be easier to to deal with right if it's just like a movie where it's like oh you know christmas you know we just got to be there for each other and like that that's what christmas is all about like that i could handle the i don't i i literally was like saying to uh i was talking to emma last night because i was like what is this movie about i don't really know what the message is supposed to be about it apart from believing which we're gonna get into and she was like i know my dad loves that movie and so it's like it's to me it's so weird stefanski stefanski

yes stefanski and like and yet and she is not like i think she is representative of so many people where like it's just like they're like polar express family classic the train comes great movie go see santa yes what are you talking about like nothing weird about it it is weird that it does feel like it sort of got grandfathered into being a holiday classic on a technicality in certain ways. But I even think that like the year before this is Elf. And perhaps I'm somewhat biased because I think Elf is the best Christmas movie the last 20 years and is the one that my family tends to watch together. A good movie. Joey and I saw that movie in theaters.

That's a movie for me that really grows that I think is great. And that like, in the way David, we talked about in a recent episode, movies that like gain a star on Netflix. Elf is like a gain, a star from repeated viewing

around the holiday season movie. It just fucking plays. Right, gains a star on december right but i i sense like a real people are passionate about that movie and there's like an adaptability of it of like they did a broadway musical they did a fucking stop motion special they've done children's books of it like it feels like there's some potency to the story that works across different interpretations and this just weirdly the most i ever hear people say is just that boilerplate like oh yeah my dad loves that movie or like i loved that movie when i was a kid but

no one can unpack why this movie has any emotional impact on them like i totally understand you joey being like we have to look into this thing yeah but i don't understand people just being like yeah i don't know it makes me feel good any family views this is like the movie you just sort of put on in the holiday times. Then they must not be paying any attention to it. It must just sort of be on in the background because that's a wild thing to say. All caps must be investigated. No, no. But I think that's what Joey's saying is right.

I think it's a movie you put on the first half hour. You're into it. You're like watching it with the family, you know, and that's the part. It's like, okay, they're getting on the train going to see santa and then people get up and they start getting dinner ready or like doing you know like and then people are in and out because like the last half of this movie if you sit down and watch it oh yeah i mean what's wrong with you like come on not only is it bizarre it's bad like so like i think it's just that yes the score feels like such a musical encapsulation of the commercial spirit of christmas right of the sort of like marketing department like sentiment

of christmas this movie's about it's about believing that you're gonna get presents it's like elf is about like you say like that's a movie about a nice person who's nice yes and he And he comes to New York and New York is a tougher town than he's used to. But like, you know, the spirit of Christmas is embodied in him and how he makes everyone better. It's a Paddington story. And even though it comes into like belief of Christmas and Santa Claus, ostensibly,

it's about him selling the idea of like brotherhood and caring and compassion during the holiday season. Like it right it has some other shit it's tapping into this is just like completely self-reflexive this movie is like what's it about believing believing in what the belief but what am i supposed to be believing in the polar express but where does the polar express take me to christmas this movie is and i think there's nothing wrong with this but it is inarguable is for people who their god is santa yes like this movie is religious but about santa the the like coca-cola guy you know like santa the 20th century god like you believe in santa what

does santa do gets you presents what else lives at the north pole is there any like sort of christmas christian feeling here none at all that's not what this is about baby i'm sorry i have to pull the emergency brakes for a second okay because we're going straight in the deep end but i think there's a big question we all got to answer before we dig into this episode deeper. I think we all need to talk about our relationships to Christmas. Okay, go ahead. No, because I do think...

Yes, I mean, that's fine. I am a Jewish person, right? We're all Jews here. I mean, not Ben. Yeah, not Ben. i was a kid who loved christmas we had a sort of very uh uh agnostic uh celebration of easter and christmas in particular in my household i think because i was just a kid who loved ceremony and toys and candy and shit. And there was always this thing of like, I definitely, despite being a Jew in the private school system in New York City,

perhaps the most welcoming place to be a Jew where you feel like you have the most cultural currency. I still felt left out of the fact that I wasn't Christian and i couldn't partake in the holidays that seemed fun you know like i knew that we didn't have any spiritual connection i know i i get you i guess so we we very much celebrated christmas in a very polar express way where it was like belief in santa and rudolph and green and red and this music and presents and no deeper mealing and any of this. And I love Christmas and it makes me fucking sentimental. And I'm a sap for like when the fucking commercials come on. I built a little more cynicism to it, but it's still very easy to break me with Christmasy shit.

Wait, but so you believed in Santa though? You like, you did the whole ritual of Santa. Absolutely. All of it. All of it. We were, it was just the performative rituals of the holiday uh in a very hollow way like this well joey's birthday is on christmas eve which i don't know if you would remember that but wow uh so sorry joey that stinks yeah everyone says that, but it's really fine. But you don't get as many presents. As somebody who's like a June birthday,

I have six months between Christmas and my birthday to clear the slate so that the presents just stack up, baby. You clear this. You have a present table. And by Christmas, it's ready again. Yep. Around May, Ben just starts tapping on the table right giving the side eye to his parents looking a little bare folks huh um so i would say and i don't know if you agree with this i mean christmas was really more of just kind of like this afterthought to joey's birthday because joey's birthday was kind

of the presenty event and because we were jews we kind of like did hanukkah whenever we did hanukkah like yeah so that moved around so if hanukkah and my birthday had both passed in our family it would sort of feel like we were done with the whole present giving sure season and all that it was over and then christmas was an afterthought and yeah there was no santa presents no tree right the thing is because we have british relatives and then later lived in britain let's just get this out of the fucking way i i hate this new fucking you you just like mitch mcconnell style try to ram it through the system to block the bit from happening oh boy oh boy well because we have british relatives and we moved to britain in 1995 piece of shit you hate joy pausing okay there's no way come on all right fine fine fine fine fine

okay um we would get presents presents from some of the Brits because Christmas in Britain, that's the main event. So it would be kind of this vestigial, it would be like sort of the end of the present season, like we said. Sure. No Santa, never believed in Santa. Wow.

Did your parents tell you that Santa wasn't real or did you just never buy into it? I don't think it really came up. Yeah, there was just no effort to introduce him into the, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like you do have to like, be like, you know, Santa came, right? You have to, you have to do a little theatrics, right? I mean, it was my dad's big, big showcase as an actor every year was the Santa shit. Overreacting to anything Santa did or didn't do and tip in the hand of like do you think he's gonna eat the cook i think he might not eat the

cookies this year he would just he was not subtle with any of that shit it seems fun like and it's so funny because your dad is jewish like to think about him being like you know what fuck it let's just go for it um but so my mom was half and half and my grandmother very much tried to pretend she wasn't jewish for most of her life and my dad's parents i think were the same where it was like we're jews we're not super religious but we do christmas out of ceremony we do the santa shit and whatever but here's the thing and joey you should this is my thing i don't know if you agree with this joy but like so my experience of christmas like my experience of much of life is through movies like that's you know the christmas i understand the most the hollywood christmas like would you agree

joey i mean i think this movie is an example of that part kind of not registering with me as much because i don't have the like childhood attachment or whatever, sort of like the things that are interesting to me about this movie obviously have nothing to do with Santa other than his terrifying face. But yes, more generally speaking, yeah, culture would have been the only place, movies would have been the only place

where this idea would have been introduced to us us but that did not seep into us to the extent of us being like is santa coming to parents who would never introduce this concept it did not have that level of power which you'd think it might but it didn't well i will say this that my family staunch atheists sure tracks your dad's a man of science your dad's a man yes yeah you're an only child correct my dad was just like jesus santa easter bunny not real and i was like i was like like so young and he just like like just got it all out of the way yeah let's get down to brass tacks yeah i mean you also your parents were old first-time parents it's fair to say right correct so i think they also kind of like got to that point where they were just like sort of tired yeah right and they got to that point where they were just like sort of tired.

Yeah. And they had moved on already. So they were just like, listen, kid, none of this is real. All right. Yeah. You're going to get presents. We'll have some family come by. Like, that's just how it's going to be.

That's I mean, it's fascinating out of four of us that I'm the only one who grew up with Santa Claus. I just wanted to share, though, that i was the kid on the bus to tell everybody that santa is a real and made kids cry for like i was the first one to make sure that i let everybody know yeah you were one of those kids you try you tried every year to to break the story in the school newspaper you could but you couldn't you couldn't verify it your dad wouldn't speak on record so you could never get confirmation who are your sources i can't tell you they're very high level um i remember my dad at one point like i because i was such a hyper obsessive kid grilling him on like the the the the logic of santa claus not because i didn't believe i so avidly believed but i just wanted but i just wanted the answers i

was just curious to get some sort of definition and i remember him just like pulling a lot of wild shit out of his ass but then saying like how do you know all this stuff and my dad telling me there's a book when you become a father that they give you that has like just a lot of this information in it and i was like can i see the book and he was like you can't see it unless you're a dad and i always i think about that all the time because it is fascinating that santa claus still exists as like a concept especially in the age of the internet because it's just so easy to fact check this shit like all you have to do is like go to school and then go to one other kid and being like so what about your dad with that book and they could be like my dad

doesn't have any fucking book that's not a thing like every parent is making up their own mythology to fill in the blanks i remember going to a kid's house and looking at like a book they had and in the inscription on the inside it said like dear michael for being a good boy this year love santa claus and i was like why does santa claus write you fucking notes and he doesn't write me fucking notes right different approaches that that's destabilizing things doesn't track track from family to family, you know? My parents would be like, the presents that they got us would be wrapped and under the tree in the days leading up to Christmas. And then the surprise presents that Santa showed up with were unwrapped.

And I think that was partially for the impact of like waking up seeing things that magically were there. But also because they were just give us a fucking break we don't want to wrap all of these but then you talk to any other families they're like no the santa presents are the ones that are most wrapped right those are the fanciest yeah so what did your dad say about living in an apartment like how did santa get there came through i had a fireplace in the house that grew up absolutely absolutely we lived on the 11th floor he said that santa came through the window despite the window obviously having bars on it magic is the answer right that's always the answer yeah a wizard did

it but um there are a lot of holes how old was i david when i saw uh the movie the santa claus yeah and was and was totally distraught by it when did that come out this is referenced very often on the podcast the impact that the santa claus had on you oh yes i don't know about very often but i've definitely referenced it yes uh that came out in 94 so you would have been jo Joey like four or five years old. Right. So I was, I was that young when I saw it and was, uh, became, uh, so,

so upset by the opening of the movie, which is Santa Claus dying slash slash being murdered. Or is, is he killing accidentally? No, he just slips. Yeah. He slips,

but it's because he's kind of, he's scared by Tim Allen. It he's scared. By Tim Allen. It's like manslaughter. Tim Allen's like, ugh. Yeah, he grunts too loudly. Yeah, although actually, I guess this anecdote actually proves the opposite point that I was trying to make, because I was distraught by the idea of Santa Claus dying, which suggests that I had an attachment to him. You had some sort of investment in the idea, at least santa claus uh dying which suggests that i had an attachment to you had you had some sort of investment in the idea at least as a fictional character you felt some

fondness apparently or maybe i just sort of felt general human empathy for the for the for the fallen but yeah hey gotta respect the fallen i mean but anyway i uh yes i got so upset that i had to be taken out of the movie theater and she eventually took me to the hospital because she thought that something was wrong with me. No, no, I want to she didn't she didn't take you to the hospital. She took you to the doctor like the hospital would have been extreme, right? But yes, I you basically just would not stop crying. I believe you because you were so upset just sort of eventually she was like this year

ear hurt, you know, and you were like, were like yeah you know like i think you just kind of she was like there's gotta be it can't just be this don't fucking movie you know like you don't even believe in the guy it's an actor for crying out loud you stupid four-year-old you never see the guy's face he doesn't have any dialogue uh you don't that's true you don't it's just just a crazy premise anyway but we're not talking about it's a non-speaking part he probably got below sag minimum why are you crying joey um but so when this movie comes out yeah we're talking oh four october oh four yeah so i am in college right it's my first year in college i'm not gonna get the boys together you know you'd be like come on guys let's let's let's

strap on our 3d glasses and go see fucking santa claus like so i guess that was my yeah i just missed it and then it was this sort of mocked movie. So I was like, I didn't miss anything. Right. My main or only memory, big memory from its cinematic release was that there was a teaser trailer that premiered like a full year before. It was one of those movies that had like a promotional rollout that started like way ahead of time. rollout that started like way ahead of time and i feel like this teaser was possibly attached to some big movie but i can't remember which because i feel like i saw it multiple times and the teaser is just the opening scene of just the polar not quite the opening of the train

pulling up and then tom hanks being like this is the polar express and that's it right and then i feel like there's one and that was just out there forever and it was one of those trailers that came out so early that you're just like after a while you're just like, when are you going to fucking release this thing? I remember seeing that trailer October 03.

I want to bring this in to outline the difference between David and I. David saying I would never gather the boys together to go see Polar Express. October 03, a year before this movie

comes out, I gather friends to go see Looney Tunes back in action at midnight. Sure. And I remember seeing the teaser before this.

Me not seeing this movie was an active decision. Like, I was soft protesting this movie. I was like, it looks like dog shit. I hate it. This is fucking creepy.

There's no way to adapt that book. Like, all this seems dumb. I think I was in the, like, is Zemeckis a fucking sap and a hack period? As much as I love Back to the Future, and even though his movie right before this was Cast Away, which I loved, I think I was like,

fucking Zemeckis lost the plot. I'm out of here. of here like i was like i don't want to see this fucking thing and i would like criticize like i would like but why would you see that it looks like fucking garbage um which i was still very much in a period of sort of a you know animation completism b I would rarely not see one of the top 10 box office releases of the year, if only for a sense of like cultural knowledge. It's rare that I wouldn't see something that grossed this much money, if only to figure out why the fuck is this popular. And C, Romilly's nine years younger than me.

Right. So I'm 15 when this comes out, but she's six. And I would use having a six-year-old sister very often as an excuse to see children's movies that I wanted to see, but didn't want to try to convince friends to go see on a fucking Friday night or whatever. And I remember just being like, mom, that's on you. You fucking take her to see the Polar Express. I'm not boarding that shit. And I like actively abstained,

never had any interest in seeing it. I feel like the only times I've ever considered it were in the years following the release of this movie when it would still get re-released every holiday season in IMAX 3D. Like four or five years out from the original release, I remember considering, like is it worth going to Lincoln Square

to see this in IMAX 3D just because I'm a fan of 3D? But I never cared enough to do it. And then when we agreed to accept the results of the March Madness election and Zemeckis was elected our fall miniseries subject

without contention, I tracked down the 3D Blu-ray. I bought the 3D Blu-rays for this, for Christmas Carol, and for The Walk. The Walk I saw in 3D in theaters. Christmas Carol in this I never saw in theaters. Beowulf I saw in theaters in 3D. Weirdly, it's never been released in home video in 3D. But I felt like, I mean, because as you said, Joey,

like most of this film's reputation, at least when it came out, was just you got to give them credit video in 3D. But I felt like, I mean, because as you said, Joey, like most of this film's reputation, at least when it came out, was just, you gotta give them credit, the 3D's impressive. Knowing it was never gonna look as good at home, I still wanted to see this thing in 3D because that seems to be one of the only elements that everyone agrees is positive in this movie. On that level, it is impressive,

especially if you view how early it was. It's the first mainstream studio film to be released in imax 3d uh it's kind of the first major digital 3d movie spy kids 3d is the year before this but that's like red and blue cardboard glasses that suck and that sort of spurs the 3d revival because that movie does so well. And then after this, the 3D train is rolling, if you will. This movie is both the first. It has two major firsts. The other one is that it is, I believe, the first all digital capture.

Absolutely. So it is a pretty historic. Huge milestone. And a thing that is now the bedrock of so many of the blockbusters. Like everything. That totally dominate the book. Yeah, right. But like uncontested status is in the Guinness Book of World Records.

It's the first mocap movie. I'll say this too. Not to get into too deep. Within the first hour of what I assume will be a five-hour episode. But there was a rumor circulating. We've got to spend one whole hour on hot chocolate. We have to. Well, that's what we're building up to, right?

That's act two of five. Hot, hot. We got it. Hot, hot. Sorry, go ahead. No, all I want to say is just on this train, there's just one rule. Never, ever let it cool. No, all I want to say is just on this train, there's just one rule.

Never, ever let it cool. There is a sort of, there's always been a whisper, I feel, amongst the visual effects community that I saw people circulating on Twitter recently. I forget who it was, but I don't want to cite them either because they ended up deleting the tweet because it was too hot. I know what you're talking about. That Gollum really was a visual effects performance not a motion capture performance. The tech wasn't really there yet. Right. Because 2001 is Fellowship. Gollum barely appears. They don't even pretend that was motion captured. You just get the little shots in the shadow and what you see the model looks different. It's mostly just a little bit of voice.

O2, two years before this, is Two Towers, which is the first real big mo-cap performance as presented to the public. And people are like, holy shit, this is fucking incredible. This is the beginning of everything. Now this technology, you could do anything. And then two years later, this movie comes out and looks like dog shit. And not just like it looks bad which you could their faces don't move they have wax faces i was watching the the 3d blu-ray i bought is actually weirdly stacked with special features but one of the things is they have like 10 minutes of scenes where it's side by side, seeing three angles of Hanks on the motion capture volume alongside the footage in the movie.

And Hanks's performance is good. Like in just a sketch comedy way, when you're watching the live action footage, you're like Hanks is doing really kind of impressive, subtle, broad work differentiating these characters. kind of impressive, subtle, broad work differentiating these characters. And when you see that side by side with what ends up on screen, like 5% of that is making it through the data. The technology is clearly so rudimentary to a degree where you can't just chalk it up to, well, it was hard to render that many surfaces or whatever. It's clear that just like the intention of the performance is not being picked up. The receptors weren't there. And at the very least, it is known that Gollum was massaged a lot. But watching this movie, it really feels like they thought that they could do it by capturing the data.

Then they looked at the data and there was barely anything to go off of there. It was just sort of like a chalk outline of a dead body and then they sort of just animated based off the reference footage i think gollum is anti-circuses and performance in the sense that it is people trying to reanimate what he did on the day but i think there were there was a lot invested in the idea that they had pulled the technology off and so they attributed more of it to an automated system than perhaps was accurate because watching this movie it's just impossible to believe that this big a step backwards happened two years after that it's impossible is this ilm

though is it a different company i think so but even still even still but you remember at the time the narrative was ilm they did like the mummy returns like they they suck they're they're being left in the dust and like wingnut the the new zealand guys have figured it out that would be the argument against this right now to move on though because there's something else i want to say uh the book now joey and i didn't read the book right jo, Joey? Book means nothing to you, right? No, no, no. Not at all. Now, Ben, sounds like you read the book.

Forky, in my household, big fan of the book. Griff, did you like this book? Was this a book for you? It's from the writer of Jumanji, classic children's book. Huge book for me. I just want to correct, this was not ILM. I believe this was Sonyy image movers okay yeah sure okay or image works or whatever what ends up becoming animation but this was this was a bad

year for ilm they had azkaban which has really dodgy cgi uh uh riddick which does not hold up particularly well anyway anyway yes the book was huge for me but i remember even like you know unsurprisingly i was a kid where anytime i read any picture book i liked i would go oh they should make it into a movie and then in my head i would say the movie should star blank and blank would usually be tom hanks tim allen or robin williams like the three guys i liked in movies right those guys make me laugh they're good in family films. So I would read like Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs. I'd be like,

they should make this into a movie with Robin Williams. And I remember my dad just saying to me like, it doesn't have characters. You can't, what? It's Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs. Come on, there's meatballs.

Well, but yeah, but like, and the Cloudy movies are great, but they ended up wholesale creating a narrative just off of it's a place where food comes out of the sky. The book doesn't have characters. It's just sort of almost like a travelogue of this weird town where the shit happens. And I feel like even as that kid who would want to see these movies, I knew like you can't make a Polar Express movie because the book is really like, from what I remember, the opening narration

that Tom Hanks does, and then it's about him getting whisked away on this train, and it's sort of like the middle section of Where the Wild Things Are, where it's just like images of Rumpus happening, you know, and just saying like one or two sentences about what's happening on the train, but there's no incident, there's no conflict conflict he gets on the train he goes to the north pole they get there very quickly it's an easy train ride he meets santa santa gives him the bell he goes home and the end of the book the thing that always stuck with me is the idea that he says i got it and i could listen to it my parents couldn't hear it and the book is being narrated by the adult version and as i got older i could still hear it and then could listen to it. My parents couldn't hear it. And the book is being narrated by the adult version.

And as I got older, I could still hear it. And then I had kids. And then one day I stopped being able to hear it. There's this sort of haunting quality to the book. You read it as a child when so much of what you're reading, like Christmas mythology is about like, Santa is real.

We all believe in it in forever. And like Christmas movies are usually about grumpy adults needing to accept that santa is real and this book is the opposite which is like no someday you're not going to need santa anymore he's just not going to be something that rings true to you anymore uh and i watched this movie the whole time wondering how they were going to thread that needle of that ending which is the most potent thing in the entire book and instead of course the movie does the exact opposite he's like i'm a good kid so i never grew up and i heard the bell forever bye and now here's josh groban right good night my sister's a narc take it away yeah you know and i'll say too like loving the book i remember the illustration is like beautiful. Like it's, and then that this movie is dog shit.

Like it's trying to approximate the look of the sort of, you know, oil paintings from the book. I mean, he was like, you know, in addition to being, I feel like this very big children's book author in terms of how sort of sticky his ideas were like Jumanji and everything he also was just this amazing artist and the books looked so much more high quality than other picture books at the time and it was so effective in selling that like fuck this book looks like Christmas spirit like it's hard to read it and not feel a little festive and Zemeckis's whole pitch on this because Hanks buys the rights early Hanks bought a lot of children's books in the 90s. Like, he bought Where the Wild Things Are and Ant Bully and this. Like, all these things that were in development hell for over a decade and then finally got made in the 2000s.

And he was like, I'm buying it because my kids love it. I think the book is good. I'm signing on. I'm going to play the conductor in Santa. And then no one ever fucking had any idea how to write a full movie out of this rob brown was supposed to do it for some period of time they go to zemeckis i think zemeckis writes the script one of the conditions on selling the rights to hanks uh what's the guy's name chris van chris van arsdale no no

no chris van arsdale is one of the birthday boys i keep on correcting it in my mind chris van alzberg um shout out to chris van arsdale but uh one of the conditions on selling the book to hanks in the 90s was it cannot be animated i don't want this turned into a cartoon so i know that like zemeckis signed on and then had to sell on the idea that it should be animated. I think his argument was, A, I want it to look as much like your illustration as possible. That's going to be hard to do in live action. I think the illustrations are the whole mood. In animation, we can do that.

And B, if we did it live action, it would cost a billion dollars. If we did it animated, it would only cost $160, which is this other weird thing Zemeckis was on about in the 2000s when he becomes like, you know, the fucking Henry Hill of mocap going from town to town telling everyone to try it is like, you can do these things that would cost too much money in live action. You can make them cheap. Like that was his whole thing with Beowulf was like, I went to Neil Gaiman and I said, write the most expensive movie you can think of because we can make it.

You can't do it in live action. Well, I think what's confusing about the fact that he kept doing mocap is that this first one you can sort of chalk up to like i believe that zemeckis and hanks like had this technology like put in front of them and they were showing in the like sort of rough like you know draft form like here's what we can do for you like here's what this shit can do and here's how fast it can do it and here's the things you can do which you've never been able to do right as like a director on a set like stuff that was it was too expensive or like a camera could never move this way or like you know here's all the amazing things you can do and they were like great what a dream camera moves a huge part of it joey well it may be one of the biggest

selling points as a mech is you have to believe so I just I am perfectly willing to believe and give the benefit of the doubt of like he was showing shit where it's like look how amazing this is gonna be yeah and then it did not work but what's confusing there is that he why he just then kept trying and trying but that's gonna probably gonna be more of a topic for your future episodes but but in this one and this is you know gets to part of

what i sort of uh what i love about this uh what i love about this movie is the moments where you the moments where you get it the moments where you get like why he wanted to do this is stuff like uh the sequence with the ticket like the one shot sequence with the ticket flying out of the train and then flying all over like all the world all over going through this whole journey where it's like in a bird's nest and it's like in a pack of wolves and it's like flying around and all this stuff and it's all one shot in those moments i get it i'm like i get why this seems so cool to you it's just like the spielberg long shots in um in in tintin where it's like he's just like the Spielberg long shots in Tintin, where it's like, he's just like,

I can do these things that I could never have dreamed of. It's wild, though, because I feel like the Tintin shot is the example of that that works. And I haven't seen Christmas Carol, but Beowulf, he does an almost identical shot. I remember a long overhead shot that I think is from the perspective of like a bird or something that ends up like traversing across land, goes into a tavern. There's like a woman with her hand on her hip. It goes in the crook in between her arm and her waist. Like it goes through a glass. Like he's just doing all this fucking David Fincher keyhole, like, panic room shit. But it's similarly, I remember, and I like Beowulf when I saw it in theaters. I remember the audience having an adverse reaction to seeing that in 3D IMAX, where it was actually just like, fucking too much.

Like, too fucking much. Slow it down, Bobby. Like, too fucking much. Slow it down, Bobby. And Spielberg with Tintin is smart about trying to make it look and operate like something that could be a very complicated shot, even though it couldn't really, you know? It's like he has it function as if it were on tracks, even though it's impossible for tracks to be that long. David, do you like that long shot? Yeah, sure. Whatever.

I mean, it's something. I like it when there's, look, look, we got to dig into the plot or whatever, I guess. But I mean, I don't know if I've ever seen a film that is more exclusively based around happenstance. This is just a movie where every 10 minutes a thing happens none of it has any correlation to anything else there's no reason why anything happens there's no reason why this happens to these characters like i've i've rarely seen a movie not even attempt to make the argument for why these characters are at the center of the movie

you know it's just like here are just some kids they've been asked to come on this train for no apparent reason there's not a unified thing he's got to be by himself just how it is right but it's not like oh they all have very specific lessons they need to learn until the end where he sort of tries to retrofit lessons onto them that don't really feel like we're character defects and also i i don't even feel like they learned them right yeah well uh central to the central problem i think that creates all of those weird plot contrivances and that makes it all a mess is the conductor and it's because they could not figure out they never decided and this sort of gets to the weird tonal confusion of the movie as a whole they never decided is the conductor

a kind grandfatherly figure who looks after these kids and is like guiding them on this beautiful journey or is he a monster yeah he's a train fucker he's's a train fucker. He's a classic train fucker. Yeah. Chaotic evil. I vote for chaotic evil. I think he's like a trickster god. Like, he's like a Loki type. You know what I mean?

Like, he's a mischief maker. But, like, I was watching this behind-the-scenes, side-by-side footage, and, like, to answer that very question, Joey, like, what was hanks's intention in this performance is there something that's just not coming across and watching it it's like

no he was trying to be brisk he was trying to play this weird sort of emotionally distant like sort of like blunt you know sort of authority figure um but when you filter that through very rudimentary technology that also makes him a lifeless robot so there's not even any sort of comedy to him playing like a grump you know it's just sort of like he really does feel like some malicious force he feels um he's mean he's mean to the kids constantly yelling at them um his rule the rules of his train are are are all over the place and make no sense i'm sorry there's just one rule it's never really cool but go on no no my favorite thing is that he repeats the note both with hero boy have we said that he's Hero Boy yet? Hero Boy is his name? Ben, may I please read some character names for you?

The poor kid is eventually named as Billy. That's the only one who ever gets a proper name in the entire film, okay? He's the gay kid, let's be real. But anyway. Tom Hanks plays Hero Boy, okay? Tom Hanks, as boy okay Tom Hanks is as an adult man did all the motion capture

and that early teaser that you mentioned Joey when that teaser came out if you rewatch it online it is Tom Hanks' voice as hero boy I think they thought

they could just pitch up Tom Hanks' voice and use that for the movie and at some later point they said we gotta get a kid because there's a weird he goes like well you coming coming aboard and then you just hear tom hanks go who

like there's just where is she brave girl is that who she is what's her name she's hero girl she's hero girl eddie deason is know it then Lonely Boy who later gets called Billy yes and that's it right uh yes and then it's all like Toothless Boy, Elf General, Santa, Conductor, Hobo, Scrooge Puppet their narrator like they all just have titles other than of course Smokey and steamer the two haphazard we'll get to that train and dynamic duo but um i think the other thing i would need to say about the conductor is that he repeats the same mistake twice in a row despite the fact that apparently his whole job in the world is running the polar express which is that both with the hero boy and then again with uh with the sad boy um when they are initially like disturbed by this train that is materialized out of nowhere and like don't know what to do because they're children.

And they're like, is this real? What should I have? What should I get on? He's just like, all right, fuck you then. And he's just like gets back on the train and they start moving. He's got no bedside manner. It's also, there's something very unsettling about that scene when Kira boy watches Billy the Lonely Boy not get on the train, right? Right, right. Where you see the distant window version from behind of essentially the scene we saw 10 minutes earlier.

And the conductor is saying word for word, the exact same thing. Like there's something very bizarre about the performance of it where he's in the exact same time and going like, well, are you coming aboard or not? Like it's the exact same. It's like being on a theme park ride where you can hear the robot. That's like a mile ahead of you saying the dialogue that you'll hear in a couple of minutes.

It's a look, it's a, it's a kid's movie, blah, blah, whatever. But like internal logic is, is important.

Um, nonetheless. And so that's where it just gets lost with this conductor character, because then later he's mad that they pull the emergency brake. And then when he finds out that they did it, so the sad boy could get on the train, he's like, Oh, well, what a noble thing that was. And and i'm like you just told that kid to go fuck himself a second ago like this character makes no sense um and is uh yeah it's like he's uh not to make light of this but it's almost it's almost like he's like bipolar

or something absolutely what his mood is or his attitude towards these kids is like different in every scene or even within the same scene. And it's really destabilizing as you watch this movie. Sorry, what did you just say? I said bipolar express. David, I believe there's a coin on your desk you might want to hold up right about now. Oh, five comedy, wow, I never thought. Wow, God.

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. five comedy wow i never thought wow god um it is i feel like there is a classic children's storytelling trope of like the adult authority figure who seems like a menacing asshole and then ultimately reveals to have ulterior positive thoughtful motivations. You know, there's like the Willy Wonka thing of like, I'm trying to trick you, but I care. It's all a test. It's kind of a Harry Potter trope that comes in a lot. You know, Dumbledore is very hot and cold often. Yeah, classic like trying

to win your parents' attention and affection dynamic, I guess. I don't know. But this guy is just such an asshole. And there's some indications as you get to the end of the movie and he's becomes much kinder um in the sort of last santa claus part that that might have been some idea they had but it's just too all over the place and there's too many problems like the fact that in the latter half of the movie he he apparently has noticed the fact that he's lost like four of these children on a north fall but didn't he doesn't deign to do anything about it like it's just human um but again that yeah so it's not clear

which just speaks to how haphazardly this uh screenplay was uh together this whole fucking thing of like so hanks options the screenplay himself he goes i would like to play the conductor i'm sorry yes he options the book himself I would like to play the conductor. I'm sorry. Yes. He options the book himself. I would like to play the conductor and Santa. So when Rob Reiner's working on this movie, when he brings Zemeckis on, everyone has the clear marching orders. Hanks is going to play the conductor and Santa, which means the conductor now needs to be a major character, which I mean, who the fuck is the conductor? Who gives a shit? I don't read that book and go like, I want to know what's going on in the front engine. You know, I'm sure David does,

but it's like the train is means to an end to meet Santa Claus. The book is not that much about a perilous train ride and certainly not that much about this inscrutable conductor, but by him signing onto it, the guy needs to have a lot of real estate then zemeckis has the idea what if you played every character so they tested out what if he's literally every single character and they said hanks found it too exhausting so then they scale it down to a manageable seven it's five he plays the conductor the hobo santa hero boy scrooge puppet hero boys hero boy's dad like right you know briefly right hero hero boy hero boy's dad right narrator um i i seen i was like starting to dig into this there because watching this movie it is so devoid of any meaning right it doesn't even have like a consistent uh uh theology

in and of itself let alone relation to anything that anyone believes in in the world other than the very abstract idea of belief that there's in the train i guess the sequence where they lose the pin and everything's going haywire you can briefly see a flux capacitor combined with the fact that this movie is set in 1955 the year that marty goes back to there is an online rabbit hole of people who believe that the conductor is the grown-up version of the hero boy no no but fuck this david here's the thing i don't i don't buy this for a second but i think it is so telling that in a way that's not like you know oh people want to read that fucking andy's mom is jesse's owner from toy story 2 right which is just like there's no evidence of that there people just like the idea of having a clever take this movie almost needs you to come up with some fucking unifying thread like there's

desperation of like i don't know i guess okay so the director makes a reference to his own movie that explains why it's time travel that explains the conductor's behavior you know he's nice because it's himself but none of that's supported by the movie the more likely explanation um you know the only way that you can try to make sense of why this movie is just just strings together a series of like of incidents that have no relation to one another and it's so totally weird and all of that is is that it feels like what zemeckis was more interested in was like what he could pull off visually and that they weren't that concerned um weren't that concerned with the screenplay yeah i i would believe that but

it is then interesting i guess they just sort of like it's just events they just sketch it i was like so the train will arrive that's an event hot chocolate that's an event the ticket that's right like you know they just they're just like it'll just be all set pieces where we get to do crazy things with the camera. And it's all wonder. It'll be all wonder for the kids. They'll never seen anything like it. It's spectacle. It's Christmas.

Right. Like, that's how you that's how you do this. Right. What weirdos like me who are into this movie are left with is that you have like a musical. You throw it. You throw in a musical number. So they're like, what can happen next? Like, next like all right a musical number what's what's it gonna be it's gonna be a bad hot chocolate like i don't know and a bunch of waiters come out

and they create floating tables and they do flips and they serve hot chocolate and tom hanks sings and says the word chocolate really weird um and because it's not like a visual like wonder in the way that they had intended or hoped it's instead just it's very unsettling and um it's just it's i don't i don't know it's transfixing you're clearly into it i mean you sent us an extended youtube version of this song saying we had to listen to it by the way oh did you watch the other video though ben no all right you're in you should watch that video but anyway um we'll get to that yeah so then it's just right so the it's instant so the musical number is one uh example

and then there's the whole uh crazy ticket sequence um and then you have the hobo uh which is just god oh boy there's a whole lot going on with the you speak to another like who is the conductor why does he make the choices he does? What are the rules of this train? Hero Girl doesn't have a ticket. So he drags her off the train, above the train, in the middle of the cold. It seems violent.

The racial implications of it, especially for the time in which it's set, incredibly uncomfortable. And the reveal is, no, he promoted me to be the conductor? It's a train for Cryella. It's made for you to move through it he promoted me to be the conductor. It's a train for crying out loud. It's made for you to move through it without having to go to the roof. Why is Billy seemingly in the luxury car?

Like Billy's in like the VIP car by himself. Right. For a good chunk of the movie. All of it is so strange. It's also just like this. No character in this movie has any interiority right no character in this has any they don't have exteriority they don't have facial expressions forget interiority got a creepy hobo lives on top of the train has appeared so okay like if the point of this

if the whole like message of this movie has been like you gotta believe like this kid just needs to just needs to be everyone's telling him you just gotta have faith then like you're gonna have this hobo figure come along and like maybe be the like the devil on his shoulder you know maybe people are like no kid like trust your trust your instincts it's all a lie it's all but that isn't really what he does no the hobo is super magical go ahead what does he represent please the hobo is the key to everything. Okay, so this is another online rabbit hole I went down that some people theorize that the hobo

is supposed to represent the Holy Ghost in a way that I presume is Santa Claus is the father and the conductor's the son or Hero Boy's the son. Maybe Hero Boy's the son. Yeah, I don't know. But it does feel like you watch this movie and you're like there has to be some codex that deciphers at least what their intentions were like the whole time i'm watching i was like what does this feel like oh it feels like watching some weird propaganda recruitment film for a cult and they just keep on using this buzzwords or this language

and i'm like this is all like circular what's what's the thing that unlocks it for me of what they're actually saying you have to believe in like you know you have to believe in the magic of this train but and again not to get overly obsessive about the plot please like about like the plot mechanics but like you have to believe in the magic of this train this train which we then discover for the sake of them having a big action sequence is run is being driven by two like total morons who don't know how to drive a train and and they end up like uh end up in like mortal peril and the kids have to like rescue the train and it's just sort of like it just it just the whiplash of like this is a magic train that takes you magically to the

north pole but also it's very poorly run right it's barely gonna make it right we are on the edge of our seat but also like okay unifying thread like in a charlie and the chocolate factory way where it's like each of these kids has like uh an inherent sin right an inherent character flaw they represent extreme archetypes of like youths you know uh these kids have no personality but they also just have no wants other than yeah i guess i'll get on a train like there's no reason why they're collected other than the fact that all of them happen to live directly next to train tracks what a fucking nightmare how close all these houses are to train tracks because i this movie doesn't seem to imply like oh these are magical tracks that only appear they might be magic i couldn't i. I couldn't figure that out.

It's plausible that they are magic train tracks. We never really know what his normal life is like, right? Fine. I will give the movie that one thing, but this is the point I wanted to make. You hear Hanks as an adult saying the thing of like, I lay there in bed hoping for the one noise.

What do we know about this kid? He really wants Santa to show up. Then he hears a noise. He goes out his door. He sees the silhouette of what he thinks is Santa Claus jingling and jangling. No, it's just his father played by the same actor who will later play Santa Claus carrying his sister played by Robert Zemeckis' new wife. And then the kid goes back to bed disappointed, right? and this is as much character shading as he's ever given which is apparently this incident broke his spirit being confused for one moment that perhaps the shadow of his father was in fact santa claus the rejection of that moment

killed his belief in santa Santa Claus enough that when he wakes up an hour later and is told to get on a train, he's dubious. When he gets on the train, he's dubious. When people start communicating things to Santa Claus about him, he's dubious. When he gets to the North Pole, he's dubious. When he meets the elves, he's dubious. When he's inside Santa's fucking toy sack, he's dubious. and then he meets santa he sees the bell he doesn't hear it and then they go i think you gotta believe harder and then he finally decides to start believing what what what what is this fucking kid's deal what made him turn off believing that fast what made him turn it on again that quickly why is he so resistant to the best evidence anyone

will ever get of santa claus existing and then it's just about how he was fully converted into the dogma of santa and while all other adults go on and pursue other interests he just keeps on ringing this bell for the rest of his fucking life end of movie there isn't as much to say about the latter section once we're in the north pole but it is again kind of weird because most of the space that they move through in the extended fairly boring sequence where they're like trying to get back to the the town square um are all huge like empty like barren spaces where you'll occasionally see a couple of elves like working at a computer or whatever and it's like it's kind of bleak like it's kind of doesn't really it's not really a very happy environment um and it's very blank um and just sort of i don't know it's like

very like uh industrial um and so again you're just left at a total loss of what this, this movie is like going for. If it's like every now and then they'll just for fun, throw in a little bit of commentary of like, Oh, wouldn't it be funny if the elves were just kind of like guys from New Jersey or like working in an office and they're like this, but then it's like,

no, no, but actually they're magical. And it's all, and it's all amazing. And just forget we did that. That was just for fun. It also is wild and it raises so many more questions

seeing the physical structures of the North Pole itself and being like, they have tall buildings and a clock tower. I feel like most depictions of the North Pole are like, here is Santa's house and here are the barracks where the elves sleep. And his house is also where the workbenches are. You know, it's just like a little collection of like cottages or whatever in the middle of the snow. And it's like, no, this is like the streets

are paved with cobblestone. There are multi-story buildings. Like, are there businesses? Do the elves like populate this town? Are there elf baristas who don't make toys? Or is this just a factory town where there's one fucking job and they get one night a year to cut loose? And there's one person, or there's two people. Right. In fact, there are four people, well, five if you include, there's five people in the North Pole City.

Santa Claus himself. Sure. The conductor. He lives there the rest of the year, right? Yes. Yeah. Sure. Male elves. Female elves. santa claus himself sure the conductor he lives there the rest of the year right yes yeah sure male elves female elves steven tyler those are the five those are the five mrs claus what the fuck i don't know but i see male and female elves there are female elves that have breasts otherwise they're exactly the same as the male elves. There is Steven Tyler. And of course, there's the two Tom Hanks characters. That's it. That's who we got.

That's another thing where like, aside from just obviously, this is a Tom Hanks movie, we need to give the audience enough Tom Hanks, we need to give Tom enough reasons to want to be in this movie. Most children's stories in particular, where roles are double cast, it has some sort of thematic meaning. Like the classic Peter Pan thing of like having the same actor play Captain Hook, you know? Or, you know, the Wizard of Oz thing of like mirroring the guys at the farm to the Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion and the Scarecrow or whatever. This is just like the relationship between the hobo,

the conductor, Santa Claus, and the boy's dad is very odd, especially because they all are different digital renders of Tom Hanks, especially because they all recognizably sound like Hanks and look like Hanks. They're just, the sliders are adjusted a little bit. Just another way in which the movie feels like sort of an early version of them with this technology, like trying out some things and one of the things that they thought would be cool

and crazy is like, what if Tom Hanks played all these characters, we'll make them look different so it'll work. And then they were like, well, we're not doing that again. Well, except then they do with Jim Carrey, but I've never seen that and I never heard of it. I haven't seen that either, but that tracks for me conceptually of like, well, we're not doing that again. Except then they do with Jim Carrey, but I've never seen that and I never know. I haven't seen that either, but that tracks for me conceptually of like,

oh, get the same actor to play Scrooge and play the three ghosts. Like that works in a way. Right, because it's like he's confronting aspects of himself. This makes a little less sense unless, as you say, Griffin, you just kind of try and go bananas deep with it. Where you're like, this is clearly about Jesus. There has to be something going on.

This is a back to the future allegory. I don't know. You're just desperately figuring it out. Or you could try to make it like, well, but Tom Hanks plays his dad. So is he like seeing his dad and all these people? Except you barely see the dad. So that idea the problem. Like if there was anything with the fucking dad at the beginning, other than him killing his son's spirits by merely walking through a door, then maybe there'd be some meat on the bone there. But as it is, you're like, if it's all just reflections of this kid's perception of his dad, there's not enough grounding to go off of there.

Are they all supposed to be different depictions of god you understand running to that as a theory because you need something to hold on to or but is are they all reflections of the boy i mean it's joey do you have a grand unified theory or are you more just fascinated with this as a strange chaos reigns yeah right yeah Just like a weird thing. I'm fascinated in the sense that like, I can't make any argument for the, uh, the order and arrangement in which these individual sequences come one after

the other, but every single one of them individually, I love, like, I love watching like the, the weird musical number. I love watching that, the whole,

that long ticket shot and that whole like ticket like sequence, even though it doesn't make any sense. The really fancy camera work in the train sequence where they have to like turn the train around on the ice and then they have to outrun the water. I think inarguably the best sequence in the movie. You would say that. The lake sequence is really cool.

I love that. That was fun. I think it also helps that. The lake sequence is really cool. I love that. That was fun. I think it also helps that it's the sequence least dependent on human characters. Humans, exactly. That's why it's cool. And it's just a weird idea and it's something you could never do

in a live action movie. But carry on, Jeff. Finish your thought. That's basically it. And going back to the link that you had mentioned that I had sent to you guys i had a man one thing that i had a memory of there being more of which in fact when i we brought you realize i

realized that there's actually fairly little of this was a ton of physical humor with the two like two train drivers um one of whom is played by a character actor michael jeter and then i i don't remember who plays the other one. No, he plays both. He plays both of them. He plays both, yes. But then, weirdly, someone else is credited with the voices. I was trying to parse this, because there's pretty much four people credited for each character.

I think because of doubles who needed to be doing mocap off of Hanks when he was playing one character. The children were largely redubbed from the adult actors who played them. Because, like, Scolari is playing Lonely Kid, but then there's another kid who did mocap for Hanks to act across, but then Jimmy Bennett did the voice. Like, there's all this shit like that. But Jeter is credited as motion capture for both of them.

Someone else is credited as voiceover for both of them. Someone else is credited as voiceover for both of them. Jeter dies summer 03. So I wonder if it's a situation where, A, his audio wasn't usable, or B, they needed someone to fill in the gaps of what they didn't have. Because both of the voices sound like Jeter. It's like they pointedly hired someone to sound like him. Yeah, it might have right it might have just been that he died before they could finish his work or whatever right yeah

right so yet as yet another example of something that happens in only one scene the two train drivers okay now i realize they're both in which is even better um are like do this physical humor where they're like pulling on each other pulling one's pulling on the other beards and they're all like flying around the uh the train car as they try to get control at what point they like lose gravity and one of them eats the pin all that stuff and all that kind of wacky physical humor is not really present anywhere um anywhere else a whole lot but that is far and away my favorite part of the movie that was the one time where I felt like the movie had some fucking lifeblood. It's super fun.

And I feel like as much as it's a brief thing, who knows how much work Michael Jeter actually put into this thing. It feels like a moment or one of the rare moments where you can actually sort of feel like what the performer like, like really brought, brought to this in a way that actually does come through in the technology. Because as you will have seen in the link that I sent that to you guys, that a video, which I'm sure you will have to talk about it along with this,

Michael Jeter was an incredible physical performer who like the all time great physical comedians. Yeah. Who could move his body around in insane ways, kind of like Bill Irwin esque. Um, and, uh,

just this sort of, you get a little taste of that and then it also makes me sad to think about because i feel like at this moment in his uh career uh michael jeter was sort of having like kind of a a moment where he was kind of becoming a go-to right like character actor yeah guy and he's been starting to get roles like this going david right because he'd been in jurassic park 3 he'd been in open range he green mile it well it was post green mile i think he started to pop up in more movies in bigger character roles it was clear that like whatever right he had like crossed hollywood's desk is like oh this guy is uh this guy's a real spark plug

like this is a great guy to have but it's also so wild that by that point he was like a decade after having won two emm performance at the tony's uh 1990 joey is it the 1990 tony's or 89 like it's the 1990 tony's yeah right um where he won who will first he performs a number from the musical grant hotel uh and then pretty good i watched it it fucking watched it it rules uh so joey joey you joey you talk about it for a second in fact you're the one who sent us this clip it is a yeah so the well this video is a one two of him performing this number and then later in the night him winning the tony for uh i think

best feature musical because he was still right after yes because he's still sweating the wings yeah yeah um and the performance is just a perfect encapsulation of everything that he could do as well as a wonderful encapsulation of what musical theater can do even within a show that uh i'm not super familiar for the with the show but i don't the many people would say the show as a whole grand hotel although it has its fans is not kind of a stodgy show yes yes i mean based on a very stodgy old movie right it's got its following um but this number we'll take a glass together is just like this joyous burst of energy of like these two guys like dancing around with the with a big ensemble behind the but mainly jeter just throwing his body around the stage like he's a

rag doll just in especially by the end and then just kick lining at the end it's like the energy and the joy that it brings you to watch it especially given um that you don't expect someone who looks like him and has a physical presence like him to be able to do it. And then, of course, it's followed by his speech where he talks about having had problems with alcohol and drug use. I mean, that's the thing. You see him do this joyous performance. Yes.

Go ahead, Griffin. No, I was just going to say, Michael Jeter looks like someone you could see in like a shelter you know i mean he's he's so scrawny he's got this push broom mustache he looks like he was born with aggressive male pattern baldness like everything about him is so sort of physically odd and he's got this sort of folksy voice but yes as a performer he so often could do things like this and he was also on sesame street at this time playing mr noodle and then was succeeded by bill irwin they very much were similar physical

performers in terms of comedy uh and he did end up playing a lot of creeps in movies but it seeing that performance which is just like pure magical showbiz razzle dazzle. And then hearing him talk about his demons is a pretty, uh, uh, emotionally affecting combination. It's incredible. It happens to be the case that polar express was his final credit. Uh,

it worth mentioning mostly in the sense of like, that it's just a little like, uh, blimps at like what more like amazing work like that he was going to keep doing if he would have kept being sort of uh pulled up by hollywood right because he was he was only 50 right yeah he was not that old hiv related complications right ben if i can just put him in perspective for you, he, of course, also was the scummy clown who was Air Bud's original owner in Air Bud.

Sure. Oh, okay. That's probably his big-ass film role. He's got it. Well, he's also, he's in Fear and Loathing, Ben, which I have to imagine you've seen. Am I wrong? Yeah, I had the poster and influenced me

to take acid a bunch of times. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I am'm not sure i can't remember who he plays in it but he is in that as well he was in a lot of stuff oh yeah i was wrong too he only won one emmy for evening shade but he was nominated uh three consecutive years and that show was like this overhyped over expensive cbs sitcom where everyone on the show was like this overhyped, overexpensive CBS sitcom where everyone on the show was like a star and he was the guy who kind of broke out from it. But then as you say, that's like

92 and then it takes the better part of the decade for him to start really translating to movies and it felt like he was really starting to enter an exciting period of his career when he passed. Watching this sequence, A, I think these are the two best

designed characters in the film. I think, what are their names? Steamer and fucking Smokestack or whatever? That sounds right. Smokey and Steamer. I was pretty close. You were pretty close. Smokey and Steamer, I feel like,

are the only two characters who are on the right side of caricature. Like, he really exaggerates their physical characteristics, the lankiness of one, the roundness of the other, to the point where it conquers the uncanny valley. capable of moving like a cartoon allowing you to really use the effect of motion capture in a way that that technology can actually translate versus hanks trying to do very very subtle mannered performances you know like it just doesn't connect like watching them just and knowing that he's doing slapstick with himself it's just like i don't know i was into that and it underlined for me what i feel like this movie is closest to but this scene is the only time it gets there is uh and excuse me for throwing out this reference point in a year where where this was

taken from us david but what this movie kind of feels like, it's trying to emulate to me. And I would not be surprised if it was a direct inspiration, like a noted inspiration for Zimakis. But this feels like the early Disneyland rides. Like the rides that were like World's Fair rides that then became the flagships in the 50s and 60s, like Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion and the storybook rides, where they're just like a slow vehicle moving through very immersive scenes where a lot of weirdly three-dimensional caricature mannequins are like acting out little vignettes. And there's like sort of a story, but not really. You're just getting glimpses of like different set pieces, but it has that sort of old timey vibe to it and a similar kind of, uh,

spirit to it. And those two characters feel like they're on the right side of like the best sort of comical pirates in the pirates, the Caribbean ride, uh, which fucking rules. But then the second, you know,

they get to the fucking North Paul, I'm like more bored than I've ever been. Like that's my peak enjoyment at the movie. And then it falls off a cliff. Yes. He has no take on the elves. You know, he's nothing funny. He's doing that.

It's not like, there's no, like, what's the name of the guy who played all the Oompa Loompas? Deep Roy. Deep Roy. Right, there's no, like, Deep Roy type, like, idea where they're like, what if we did this? Like, it's just, they're just, I don't know,

they're small and they look weird. There's Charles Fleischer as the one, one like curmudgeonly lead elf charles fleischer who's a legendary stand-up in the voice of roger rabbit is the one who's like ah come on we gotta get these kids moving the one who's like right yeah yeah he's like watching the kid on tv or whatever right but i i hate all that shit hate i hate that shit. Yeah. The elves, elves suck enough, enough with this. Like he has this army of creeps. I hate this shit. And again,

like it's fine when it's like Will Ferrell, cause then the joke is, isn't this whole elf thing weird, right? You know, like, you know that then it's, he's making it the joke,

but like they, they're creepy. And like, I can't stop asking questions. Like the autonomy of the elves too like when elves are introduced in a movie like this i'm like do they have their freedom is this indentured servitude where did they come from right um yeah it's all upsetting i i mean i hit the the um pause button when they got to the North Pole

because I was curious. I was like, wow, so there are like five minutes of the movie left? And when I saw there were 50 minutes left, a chill ran down my spine. I mean, Joey, is there anything you stick up for in this sort of, because there's the thing where they get stuck in the sack. I would like to defend the giant sack's there's the thing where they get stuck in the sack there's like you know like I would like to defend the giant sack

that's the one takeaway I have right let's have a little sack chat lives up to the logic of Santa having all those presents it is big as hell yes yes okay

again like the sort of bits the more grounded bits that they try to throw in like oh the elves are doing kind of a bad job like taking this big sack and like dropping it on the on the on the santa sleigh like oh and they almost like kill people in the process um it doesn't land because it's so confused um because it's going to be followed up immediately by Santa appearing and being like this magical sort of like ethereal. Friendly grandfather, right. Yes, yeah. Well, no, more than friendly grandfather. They give him a godlike presence.

And you can't have your cake and eat it. Well, they did. But you can't do that and then also be like, by the way, this organization that he runs, it's a fucking mess. That being said, I guess I would, even having to completely contradict what I just said, which is in the spirit of this movie, even having just said that, I do find the sequence once Santa appears properly after Hero Boy is briefly very upset because he can't see him through a crowd and we're like, what's the problem?

Wait for him to walk closer. But once he actually appears and starts talking to him, I don't know, it has a kind of, it has a kind of, there's something about it. I don't know,

there's something sort of hypnotizing about it. Hanks almost makes the Santa scene work. I agree with you. Something sort of hypnotizing about it. Hanks almost makes the Santa scene work. I agree with you. But then you look at what Santa Claus actually says in these scenes. In this scene.

This bell is a wonderful symbol of the spirit of Christmas. As am I. Just remember the true spirit of Christmas lies in your heart. That means next to nothing.

That's a negative statement you somehow know less than when he started speaking he says four things that are completely antithetical to one another he says like this physical object is proof and i in front of you and proof but also the proof doesn't matter all that matters is what's in your heart all the different messages or takeaways that you could be he just says all of them it's so convoluted i mean he's even saying like this bell is physical proof of my existence but i don't matter i'm just an idea what do i represent the spirit the spirit of what me christmas that's the thing i i kept saying because i was i would say to forky i would say to emma like who i was sort of like yeah like

having like talking about her dad's life i'm like what does this movie think christmas is like i i like it's not about being good to your fellow man or you know like what you know what the spirit of giving or anything like that it's just like you'll get a present is that is that what it is it's bizarre that it extrapolates nothing else from christmas other than getting presents and like the arc of billy the lonely kid is he lives on the wrong part of town he is poor he doesn't like christmas because he can't trust it i guess the implication is because christmas sucks for him so they convince him to get on the train they make him sit in a car separate from everyone else that's nicer pjs which feels like some kind of mocking thing then he

sings a song about how much he loves christmas and they're like christmas great honey he's like i don't know i don't like it i don't like it. I don't trust it. Why were you just singing that song? Then they go, do you want to meet Santa? He's like, I don't know. I should probably stay here in the train. Christmas isn't all it's cracked up to be. And then at the end of the movie, he's the first kid dropped off. There's a present there and he holds it up victorious as proof that anyone can get toys. The weird rules once they get to the North Pole of like, you know how our rituals work, right? The most important thing is that Santa has to give out the first gift before Christmas can start in earnest, before he can begin his flight.

That's why we bring kids here on a train so that he can give the gift to one of the kids. How does he pick which kid he gives it to? I don't know. The one whose name is Hero Boy. That sort of helps. Right. Then the kids are so over-eager that they decide to break into Santa's lair to rummage through his sack themselves, which then leads to Christmas almost getting fucked up. That's coal-worthy, man.

And they experience no repercussions. It's coal-worthy. It's some coal-worthy shit. That's cold worthy, man. And they experience no repercussions. It's cold worthy. It's some cold worthy shit. Can I read this quote from Manola Dargis' review,

which I remember at the time, because I feel like she was pretty new at that point in 2004. At the time, certainly. Yeah. The headline is, Do you hear sleigh bells? Nah, just Tom Hanks and some train which is great but this is the the chunk that has been burned in my brain forever i just remember my dad being like you

gotta read this polar express review she just folded this movie like laundry she bodied them he wasn't using those terms but it was just like this is savage, right? The line is, here we go. Tots surely won't recognize that Santa's big entrance in front of the throngs of frenzied elves and awestruck children directly invokes, however unconsciously, one of Hitler's Nuremberg rally entrances in Lenny Raffenstahl's Triumph of the Will.

But their parents may marvel that when santa's big red sack of toys is hoisted from factory four to slay it resembles nothing so much as an airborne scrotum that's i remember the lenny ravenstahl writing yes right i remember i remember that because yes the the arrival of santa is like fucking saruman or something it's bizarre you know like the the the shadow that he casts and all that like and or it's like uh immortal joe like you know it's like do not grow addicted to presents like and all the elves are like i give you the gift of eggnog and then he flips the switch and the eggnog pours onto them they're holding up their buckets oh it's just so weird

um but scrotum that's the imagery having not seen this movie until tonight i've spent the last what almost 17 years trying to imagine what the sack was going to look like. And it did not disappoint. It's big. Big as hell. Big as hell. Two big nuts. Yeah.

What else is there to say about this movie? In the end, the answer is just, what can I tell you? I watch this movie, or at least bits, sequences of it over and over a lot and find it weirdly, uh, weirdly, uh, reassuring. And, um, it's just one of those for me and who knows why. I think, I think that is the story of this movie. Cause like, as much as this movie is an absolute freak show, it is a Christmas classic. Like that is watched all the time like i'm saying yes right i'm saying this like like like it can't be true but i think it is like it's just that's what it is i mean talking about more lines that mean nothing right because joey you're like why do i like this movie

the way to answer it is with some shit the conductor would say, right? Something like, seeing is believing, but sometimes the most real things in the world are the things we can't see. What? Or what he says. Or, oh, I'm about to say it, Joey. The thing about trains. It doesn't matter where they're going. What matters is deciding to get on. I'd say that's almost the direct opposite of the thing about trains.

Trains, famously, you should figure out where it's going before you decide to get on. Yeah, you don't just like get to like, you know, Grand Central Station and be like, track 42 for me today. Like, you know, that's not how it works. Nothing bad has ever happened to someone who got on the wrong train that's the message of this film a few things i want to spotlight quickly leslie zemeckis plays sister sarah and also the mom in this movie um they had gotten married uh in between castaway and this uh she i i believe was predominantly a burlesque performer when they met.

There was that weird moment when they go into the car of all the abandoned toys. Oh, yeah. We didn't even talk about that. Right. The mythology of that is very weird where it's like, well, the big guy wants us to reclaim the forgotten toys so we could someday maybe salvage them. Now they just sit here in the dark, all fucked up. No one touches them. Then the one Scrooge marionette tries to assault the boy saying like, you're like me, you don't believe in anything, right? But there's a moment where the kid is walking through all the marionettes

and he stops on one marionette that is a burlesque performer and like holds it and looks at it longingly for a little while and i'm pretty certain that is supposed to be a likeness of leslie zemeckis which is a very very weird moment it is like a lady in like a va va voom like v cut black uh slip and a feather bow looks like his whole sequence is weird hot hot we got it hot hot we got where do they go after they've uh done their number where where where those guys at great question great question just like santa's like all right all right okay okay okay everyone be quiet everyone here's all right i'm gonna need two billion elves one conductor steven tyler obviously five we're gonna need a

rail system so i can pick up 14 kids can we also get steven tyler a solid gold unicycle but also an extra long microphone stand with a wheel at the bottom of it so it can follow him around on but of course it has to have flair it wouldn't be right right right yes but it was santa's like i'm not done i'm not uh for the to drive the train anyone you i don't fucking care any idiot i don't care at all right it could be two dumb people it could be a little girl who doesn't have a ticket it doesn't matter doesn't matter definitely be people that are inappropriate to be around children yeah right right right uh if the train has a weirdo that's fine i i can't really

deal with that guy he has his own sort of way of doing things and um uh oh and like five tap dancing hot chocolate guys we need to serve the kids hot chocolate. Can we get some chocolate boys or what? I'm not a monster. Hank's famously turned down Toy Story when it was first offered to him without even reading the script because it was an animated Disney film. And he was like, I can't sing. I can't be in a musical. And they had to like follow up with him and be like, no, we're like doing something different here. It's not a fairy tale movie. It's not a musical. And he was like, oh, thank God. Okay. If I don't have to sing, then that's fine. But just like, don't trick me into singing. And then Toy Story 2, there's the moment where they see him, the Woody puppet singing, You've Got a Friend in Me on TV.

And he always talks about like, Pixar got me. They finally got me. They tricked me into doing a song. got me. They finally got me. They tricked me into doing a song. This movie being a soft musical with songs by Alan Silvestri and Glenn Ballard, the man who co-wrote Jagged Little Pill, is so bizarre, especially because your lead actor who's playing seven characters refuses to sing. So he's only really involved in one musical number, which is just him yelling stuff semi-rhythmically did we say this already alan sylvester he wrote this song wrote this song yes how many times did he just write hot hot on a piece of paper he co-wrote it with the man who co-wrote jagged little pill fuck what that is so fucking weird how um what's the other song called the the end

credit song believe um believe that's what it's called right he also wrote that right right that song is a bag of dog dick and it's but it is it is just crazy where they're like ah this movie's not complete until we just have a fucking awful. That's the worst shit. Which has got like an autopilot Oscar nomination. Of course. I cannot imagine any of them listen to it. Did he perform that trash on the Oscars? He must.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I remember it. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And it was one of those things. They put him on a gold unicycle with a roller. Mike's stand.

It was one of those things where it's like, all right, let's go. I'm going to go. Oh right. Cause this is those things where it's like all right let's go i'm gonna go all right because this is the year where it's like this is the year where the nominees are so fucking bad that it's almost a crisis so you've got this shit you've got something from i think it's a french movie called the chorus called look to your path yeah that was the biggest hit in france yeah you've got accidentally in love from shrek 2 by

the counting crows guy right yeah yeah you've got um learn to be lonely the the the absolute vomit that anthony lloyd weber'd like puked out like to add to phantom of the opera that got a nomination well because it was nothing else and so the winner was the song from the motorcycle diaries like which is not a musical remember is is dream girls 2006 uh yeah right because that's the year where they're like this category is a disaster we haven't had good nominees in years and dream girls got three out of five nominations and since then it's almost always seven it's three nominees right uh yeah it kind of it's weird it kind of expands and contracts it's a weird category but they made the the qualifications for nomination a lot more stringent like i just feel like they've been trying to prevent that kind of shit from getting nominated again definitely

definitely um i think i think the last thing i want to just briefly shout out this is kind of the last major film role of nona gay who i have always found very compelling and i thought was going to be a big star and we've covered almost the entirety of her filmography on this podcast because it's essentially the matrix sequels, which she fills in for Aaliyah after Aaliyah passes away. Ali, in which she's really good. And then before that, it's like she's in a video

as herself. She's an extra in Harlem Nights as a child. But it's Ali, Matrix Reloaded, Matrix Revolutions, Crash, the same year as this, then Polar Express, Polar Express the video game, The Matrix Online the video game, and then 2005, XXX State of the Union,

2005, Some Movie Called the Gospel, 2009, Blood and Bone, Never Seen Again. Never Seen Again, it's weird. She is very charming in the Matrix movies and in all of them. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what her story is. No idea. It's just like this is her last major thing yeah it's weird yeah very odd um yeah so this movie as griff and i were sort of briefly discussing before the recording started opened poorly because they opened it at before thanksgiving they opened it november 12th 2004

i thought it was october for some reason but it was november okay and like people were like well that was dumb you know people sort of did the like what were they thinking and it's like then it did what it was i guess what they had bet on which was it just played like gangbusters all the way through christmas and became this surprise sort of surprise hit it was kind of a comeback hit like it made 300 million dollars worldwide that's very much the modern release strategy for holiday films because they're like if you release a movie in december no one goes to see a christmas movie on december like 26 like the second christmas day has passed no one wants to watch a christmas movie so 26th. The second Christmas day has passed.

No one wants to watch a Christmas movie. So you need to give it a month of lead time, and then it experiences a second wind in December. Elf was a November release as well. But this one, it felt early, and it underperformed the opening weekend, and then just fucking lingered and multiplied. I think the imax

helped them like the word of mouth on imax was good and that was at surcharge and that continued to play they continued to re-release it every year and it would make another couple of million dollars every fucking year for a while until there just became too much imax competition i will say as a fan of 3d this movie works really well in 3D, not just from a technological standpoint, but Zemeckis is a smart visual filmmaker in terms of knowing how to frame things to play well in 3D. And his basic composition style has a lot of depth in it and is very blocking dependent. And even the way he uses his camera movements is very very effective in 3d and this movie watched at home in 3d has a very effective move it does that martin scorsese got a bunch of fucking credit for doing 10 years later in hugo which is the thing where like sasha baron cohen is interrogating the kid and he like leans in and it's like he's leaning into the audience like it's a close-up

that feels like it's invading your space and he does that with like the hobo in this and it's very effective so that's the that's the best argument for this movie existing all right polar express but here's the thing that's all right so this is a box office with the top five movies four of them are new wow four are new the only old movie is last week's number one this week's number one it's made 143 million dollars we've discussed it on the podcast um what is interesting oh it's the incredibles it's the incredibles yeah that was the other thing people were like what are they doing releasing an animated film a week later this juggernaut like what are they idiots like yeah so the incredibles right joey one of our favorite movies number one uh and that was pixar's biggest opening weekend ever too like they're opening

against the second weekend of the biggest opening pixar had had right but then weirdly like i feel like every pixar movie had kind of outgrossed the previous one nemo had been so huge that people thought incredibles was going to do nemo style numbers and it came in a little under and i wonder if that's polar express stealing a little bit of its repeat viewing right right right right and but here's the other thing so we have done the incredibles weekend so sometimes that's a problem for us because you know but no ray the grudge saw alfie all out of the top five because there's four new movies number two is the polar express opening at 23 million dollars looks like it's 30 i think it opened on a wednesday or something like that yeah yeah what is number three it is a oh boy oh boy uh i guess an action

comedy from a fairly major director for the moment not a good director but you know a hit maker and it is sort of a forgotten movie from him uh kind of like a kind of like a throwback 80s sort of sleazy action comedy i've never seen it is it a two-hander no it's like four four people above the title uh You know, kind of like, hey, look, we got a lot of cool and interesting people. And it's like, it has this really vague title. This is a tower heist, isn't it? No, but it's after the sunset. There you go.

Brett Ratner. Joey was on the trail of Brett Ratner there. But it was after... Rosnan, Hayek, Harrelson, andson and cheetle and cheetle that's right yeah you also got uh naomi harris you got uh michael t williamson troy garrity there's people chris penn fundamentally does not exist yeah what the fuck is that movie yeah it's like you know it's one of those movies where it's like you imagine someone saying we got to get over all these guys but i actually have no idea like who is getting over on what i feel like in my memory that was one of the last or the last movies where pierce brosnan was still

trying to pretend to like he was still like to be a non-bond star like i can watch any movie but also that he was trying to still be like hot and then he sort of did a shift where he was like what if i just started bracing my age and for like more like character issues and that and then he was like all right this works better that's him sort of doing steve mcqueenie kind of stuff that movie i feel like vibe wise correct correct because the same year is laws of attraction where like the lawyer rom-com he did with Julianne Moore. And the year after is the matador,

which is him being like, I'll play an antihero. I'll play a washed up guy. I'll get a golden globe nomination. All right. Number four. So after the sunset, by the way,

opens to 11 million and made 28. All right. Number four is a horror sequel. Hmm. It's not The Ring 2. No, it is. I want to say it's the fifth in a long running, but recently revived, you know, at this point in time, franchise. Saw?

No, not Saw. No so i was about to emerge it's not it's been rebooted so it's fifth in total but there was a gap they took a break for a little while you're saying that's right there's three then there's a gap and then there's a relaunch with kind of a new tone that that were into. And so they were like, well, okay, all right, we'll do this. In 2004, you say? And how many have there been since then? There has only been two since then and then a reboot, a maligned reboot. Wow.

And I believe the next two might've been kind of straight to DC. It's not, it's not the Texas Chainsaw prequel, is it? It's not. It's not. It's a franchise you like, Griffin. It's a franchise I like. Oh, oh, it's Seed of Chucky. Seed of Chucky.

So that's the one, right. Because Bride of Chucky is the one where they're like, do you like this? Yes. This tone. And people are like, yes. And so Seed of Chucky is the one where they're like do you like this yes this tone and people are like yes and the so seed of chucky is the one that's really bananas right like yes it's really going for meta it's also the one where they let don mancini directed who had written all the films and had steered the weird evolution of the franchise and he was just like i'm going full like like seed of chucky is like a john waters movie down to john waters playing a paparazzi uh and chucky murdering britney spears it's just vulgarity but it kind

of rules it's like a trauma film i believe like red man is like fourth built you know that's the right and jennifer tilly who played a woman who then becomes gets her spirit trapped in a doll plays in this movie jennifer tilly the actress who then also fucks chuckie correct correct yeah seed of chuck maybe i should see this movie yeah i mean you would dig you would dig that whole series ben all right number five their son is named glenn as a glen or glenda joke it's a very odd film yes number five is a sequel okay maybe a slightly more whatever it's a sequel i think this movie was probably like oh well will be a huge hit and it was a disappointment in america but this movie made 260 million dollars worldwide it made 40 in america but america was not and i lived in

britain and when this movie came out it was like we're going everybody come on come on come on round up the house we're going to the od in newcastle we're gonna fucking see this thing because and like the theater was packed and was howling. This movie stinks, but it was a big deal in Britain, but it's a comedy, comedy, comedy sequel. And they never made another one, even though this one,

no, they did like more than a decade later. They did 12 years later. They made a third one. Is it big mama's house too? No, no, that was a spring release.

Britain did not care about big mama's house.'s what i'm trying to figure it's not mr bean's holiday it's not no no that's more you know right that makes more sense right i try to think of big big spaced out sequels you might forget that one this was made and that two the other one that the later see is it is it Johnny English returns no again you're you know you're sniffing around the right area but this movie did put it this way the first one got an Oscar nomination whoa and this one gets a Golden Globe nomination for besticulous. Oh, is it Bridget Jones and the Edge of Reason? Oh, there we go. My friend, Bridget Jones, colon, the end of reason. The edge.

Big lawyer, big liar, big dilemma. That is the tagline. It is weird how much that movie just fucking farted at the u.s box office considering how big the first one was people were like nah we only needed one of those yeah but in britain and overseas like it killed i'm sorry i'm just like i'm running through this because i was just trying to remember if i had this correct renee zellweger essentially disappears 2010 right then there's like the photos that come out with the plastic surgery and everyone freaks out and she kind of hides again

then a couple years later she comes out with bridget jones and the edge of reason or bridget jones's baby and it was like here's her return it's her first movie in six years yes people kind of shrug fully doesn't exist patrick dempsey is like a major part of it because she granted want to be in it right right uh but yeah it's like she disappears for six years comes back with her like most beloved character the world shrugs and then she just casually wins an oscar again right like i'm not saying she would have won an oscar for bridget jones 3 but it is weird that people were clearly ready for her to return and then we're

just like no not the one we like give us some dog shit biopic can you just fucking phone in some jenny phone in it but whatever like can you be in the most phoned in biopic she's fine oh god that movie stinks i can't believe she has two Oscars, but whatever. She's in Jerry Maguire. She gets a free pass for life. That's the thing. It's like,

I, there's a universe in which I'm happy to give her two Academy awards and neither of them would be for the performances she won for. Absolutely. She's given good performances and right. It's neither of her wins. That is a weird, like,

cause like with swank, it's like, okay, she shouldn't have two Oscars maybe objectively, but those were both very they're both yeah you you can see why those performances landed at that moment you know with with sally field norma ray that's one of the greatest movie performances the other one you're like well that was stupid like they just fucked up whatever it was a weird year i can't believe that you guys are gonna have to do a whole i say this is the guy who wanted to do the polar express episode i can't believe that you're gonna have to do a whole

christmas carol episode absolutely and we're gonna do it we're gonna do it with bells on ring-a-ding-ding can you hear them can you hear it um no because you know i don't have uh i don't believe in anything. You guys are cynical adults. Do not believe in Robert Zemeckis' whatever. Wait, real quick. Yeah. When the bell falls down, we hear Santa's coming to town slow as hell, right? Do you remember this in the movie?

Chopped and screwed. Okay. For years, I've been working on a slow christmas album and and for our christmas carol episode there will be a link to this album i finally finished it ben you're gonna drop the album this is your official slow christmas album y'all all right so this is a preview. December's going to be a huge month, guys. Santa has come to town.

Ben has never mentioned this. Never. Never mentioned this before. We're talking about is you taking existing songs and then just slowing them, slowing them way down, and that's it, right? Is it like Inception where it's like, like that? Like how slow is slow oh it's slow baby

do you have a name can we officially reveal the name of this album or is it still untitled i mean i've just been going with like untitled slow christmas album but yeah i'll try to come up with something catchier i don't know untitled slow christmas album is pretty perfect i don't think we're gonna get a better title than that all right well there we go uh that's really yes and david i wanted to second what you said ben has revealed so many of his deepest hopes and dreams to us over the years so many of his greatest ambitions this is the first we have ever

heard of this years in the making slow Christmas album oh boy I wasn't ready to reveal it yet so the time just felt right wow Joey thank you for coming on the show.

Thank you. Thank you for kicking off our December to Remember Zemeckis podcast event. We're going to get silly. As we traipse through these mocap movies and his holiday films. People should follow you on Twitter.

Yes, they can also now subscribe to my sub stack, which is about theater. So if you enjoyed me rambling about Michael Jeter and Grand Hotel, that is joeyzims.substack.com. Hell yeah. You got some of the best theater takes around. Beowulf next week. Yep. It'sulf, next week. Yep.

It's going to be good. Zemeckis' weirdly horny, weirdly violent, still somehow PG-13, mo-cap, adult, 3D action film. I'm excited for that. And thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe thanks to Joey's roommate

Lane Montgomery for our theme song Pat Rounds and Joe Bowen for our artwork and for Guto for social media helping produce the show go to blankies.red.com

for some real nerdy shit and patreon.com slash blank check for blank check special features we're polishing off that alien franchise uh those commentaries um and as always on this podcast there's just one rule. Never ever let it cool!