Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Power of The Dog with Richard Lawson

Episode Date: March 6, 2022

An unseen presence looming over the two friends, a man who has definitely ridden a dang horse, a larger than life character about whom many have speculated…are we talking about Bronco Hosley or Bronco Henry? Trolls impresario and Vanity Fair critic Richard Lawson makes his tenth (!!) appearance on the pod to unpack Jane Campion’s “The Power of the Dog.” Did Campion figure out the best use of Benedict Cumberbatch’s screen presence? Is anthrax the poison with the coolest name? Can you imagine Gerard Depardieu starring in this - it’s apparently his favorite book! All that, plus our final Campion rankings and the announcement of our next series. Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com

How come you don't wear gloves? How about because they're not needed? Castrate 1500 podcast that nicked your thumb on the last. Hard to do him. You need more gravel. I'm trying to think. But it's like it's nasally,

but then he's got my little banjo. No, I can't do it. It's really. Write it to him. Right. Can I try? I can't even hear. I am an American cowboy. Is? Can I try? I can't even almost hear it. I am an American cowboy.

Is that it? Did I get it? Well, this is what's weird about him is that he's grumbly in this, but he also does his Cumberbatch. I'm hitting American vowels too hard. Right? Like, I'm like,

there's like a little bit of like Nicholson, but then it's a Southern thing. Yet it sort of works, oddly. It totally works because it masks the stroke of casting. You think he's doing a bit of a performance and that's why he's so perfect for this film. Yeah.

And why other things like Doctor Strange are you're like, I don't mind this, but something's off or whatever. I don't, because I don't want to fucking talk about Marvel movies and campy in episodes, but I just want to get this out of the way because i had this thought while re-watching this movie i feel like we've talked about this david what that like you're like oh

he's so much better in infinity war as dr strange than he is the other movies as dr strange and it's because the one that's the one movie that robert downey jr is also in so he is the other movies as Doctor Strange and it's because the one that's the one movie that Robert Downey Jr. is also in so he is fully relieved of being fucking Downey Jr. snarkster yeah being quippy oh yeah that's true right yeah yeah yeah and watching this I'm just like if he

could have brought some more of this fucking menace yeah I like like I like that Doctor Strange is like this arrogant prick. I know. But those movies have to have some quotient. But the audience needs to like him

because these are movies about, you know, people to root for. You get to the vulnerability. I mean, that's why I'm like, this guy, Phil, the longer you watch this movie,

you do start to develop weird sympathy for him. Oh, completely. Cooper Patch is a skilled enough actor that I think he could pull that off. but it just feels like Marvel is terrified of the calculation

of like, I was hoping after Infinity War they'd be like, you know what, he doesn't need the jokes. It works. His fucking moment holding up the finger, him showing the tenderness, whatever, all of that works. And then fucking like Spider-Man No Way Home, it's like bam, bam, Scooby-Doo. Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.

I agree with you, but maybe in the movie the new one that's Bronco Henry in the Multiverse of Madness what if Bronco Henry shows up that would be good I want like Bronco Henry variants I want like six Bronco Henry's do you think that's who Bill Murray's playing in the third Ant-Man movie

maybe a tiny tiny Bronco Henry I'm just imagining a portal opening and then like a lasso coming out he's like what who's this now I knew he was in that because I was listening to your Ghostbusters right what if but wait what if

other comfort so you have Phil you have Sherlock he comes out with like a Blackberry or whatever Julian Assange Julian Assange Brexit man Mr. Brexit Patrick Melrose He's in a tub

I mean you obviously have Fucking Alan Turing The molester from Atonement Investing computers The molester from Atonement What's the Character from August Osage County? Oh, God.

Little Charles. Thomas Edison. Thomas Edison. Comes out as that with a light bulb or whatever. Today we call it electricity. And he can be both World War I characters from 1917 and War Horse. Wow.

Two distinct but fairly similar kind of pretty captains or whatever. Smog. Smog. Khan. Khan. Khan. He's played a lot of people. David, I don't know what you're talking about.

Bennecon Berbatches. He didn't play Khan. He played. You're trying to remember the name. John Harrison. There you go. John Harrison. What about The Grinch?

Oh, yes. It's me, The Grinch. I hate Christmas. Apparently, he's... I'll never, ever... I know I've been doing this for so many minutes of this podcast.

I will never get over that's the voice he did. Apparently, he's... I am The Grinch. Are you guys talking about Matthew Morrison? Remember that guy? He's Pitt I am the Grange. Are you guys talking about Matthew Morrison? Remember that guy? He's Pitt.

Pitt the Younger, the famous prime minister in Amazing Grace, apparently. Wow. An early Cumberbatch role. Okay. And, of course, Shere Khan from Andy Serkis' Mowgli. What's the subtitle on that movie? Jungle of the Dark. Legend of the Jungle.

Pretty lame. Pretty lame. Apparently, he played Stephen Hawking in a TV movie? Yes. You know what? the subtitle on that movie jungle of the dark legend of the jungle pretty lame pretty lame apparently he played stephen hawking in a tv movie yes you know what he talks about that a lot he beat to uh redmane to the punch on this one yeah i've watched about half of that thing he's crazy good in that good and he's talked about that he was like this is it this is the role that makes an actor's career and it aired and his career didn't go anywhere. He had like a lot of resentment of like I fucking nailed Stephen Hawking and no one noticed. And then like 10 years later, the guy wins the Oscar

for it, but thankfully he was very well established at that point. He beats Cumberbatch that year. I think if Redmayne had won for playing hawking before cumberbatch had even gotten nominated or had even more experience success right i'm sorry

yeah we're just doing a bit of a cumberbatch we have to look i just want to say this is a blank check the griffin david i think redmane i'm david i think redmane is the worst we're gonna go back to those nominees sure oh sure that's worst of those nominees. Sure. Oh, sure. Of those five, I think I put him last. I know you may like that performance more than me. Was that 2014? 2014. That was my first Toronto, and I walked out of the premiere, and I was like, he's winning the Oscar, and

everyone was like, Michael Keaton and Birdman is coming up, and I was right. Yeah. Keaton, Redmayne, Cumberbatch. I think Cumberbatch is good in the Imitation Game. I don't think that movie is particularly good. I think Never Lighten Anything Until Power of the Doctor. Wow. Let me get the fucking name of the podcast out because

we're going to talk about Cumberbatch for like an hour. We have to. An hour. Let's try and keep this episode. This is Blind Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. We did do that. I know, but then you interrupted it with the Redmane thing. That has to be a flow. How dare I interrupt? The power of the flow. Yeah. Okay. And this is a

podcast? Well, no, I have to start over again now. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear, and sometimes they bark, baby.

I said bark. Barf. Barf, barf, barf. Yeah. This is a miniseries on the films of Jane Campion. It's called The Podcastiano. The last time you're going to do that. Boof.

I guess maybe you'll do it on China Girl. Oh, sure. But that will come out before this? Yeah. Yeah. Say we're talking Power of the Dog, her most recent film, a film that is, at the time we're recording this, considered the front runner

winning Best Picture. It certainly got the most nominations at the Oscars. She seems to be a little bit undefeatable for Best Director. I think so. I think she could win three Oscars. Yeah, I think so too.

I would call her the front runner in all those categories. There also used to be the thing of like, the Oscars like to share the love. They like to spread it around. And recently we've had more of the like, Inuratu, Bong Joon-ho,

Chloe Zhao, where it's like, they just let you win all of them. Yeah. Why not? Zhao won three maybe? I guess she won two. Did someone else?

Screenplay? Adapted? Yes, went to The Father. Okay, guess she won two did someone else Screenplay Adapted yes went to the father okay so she won two Yeah but wasn't she nominated for Editing as well because that was such a you know She's nominated for the Eternals Maybe that's what you're thinking of for editing Right but she was nominated for best director of the Eternals She was nominated for editing And lost of course

To Sound of Metal Which is a good win It is funny how much A year out and lost, of course, to Sound of Metal. Oh, which is a good win. Oh, yeah. It is funny how much a year out now, it just feels like those Oscars kind of didn't exist. I feel bad for, like,

especially Daniel Kaluuya, and it's like, oh, no one remembers. I feel bad the same way. I feel bad for, like, Lauren Holt getting hired on SNL in the COVID season. Yeah.

Where I'm just like, you did, but it also kind of... Right. It's weird Oscars because I think the winners are largely good, but you're right that they're sort of weird asterisk Oscars. Yeah. And they always will be. Right, and they're just like...

People didn't watch them. I mean, look, I knew when Nomadland came out, but it was staggering to see the number repeated of like, oh, it did $3.4 million. Like, I understand. But yes, very weird. This year, it does feel like Power of the Dog alone, it feels like has been watched by more of the general public

than the movies nominated last year. Well, when it first came out on Netflix, it was in that top ten for a while, which was really surprising for a movie like that. It had more traction than you might have predicted. Partly because it's got a big star in it. It had the marriage story thing where you're like, well, this is a movie for the coastal elites. And then Netflix at large took to it more than you would imagine. There were memes? There were Bronco Henry memes? That's what what i'm saying much like the punch in the wall it was like it fucking worked have you guys settled on bronco hosley by the way is that i think it has to be

and i think that's it yeah yeah i think that's it because power the haas is too obvious well i mean you could no it's bronco hosley okay um i'm mysterious tell me the other ben says with his invisalign. Tell me the other two nominees that year. Cumberbatch is only the other. So this is rudely Ray finds my winner is snubbed. My winner too.

Is this the same year as the Lobster or not? No, it's the year before. The year before the Lobster, I guess. You and I talked about how weird it was that Colin Farrell didn't get in because it was week five. Oh, I think I know who it is. Can I guess? Yeah, of course.

Steve Carell. Steve Carell for Foxcatcher and A performance I don't like by an actor. I don't like that performance that much, but I think I'll still take it.

I like it. Channing Tatum, the co-director of Power of the Dog, right? He's better in Foxcatcher than Steve Carell is. I agree with that.

I would have given him the lead actor nomination. I would have put Ray Fiennes in there. And then, who's the fifth person? Was it a Best Picture nominee? It was. It was, David says, with his fingers intertwined. I'll tell you another fact, but then you'll just know. Okay.

This person has been nominated for nine Academy Awards. So it's Denzel. Nope. What? Who's been nominated for nine Academy Awards and yet, in my opinion, has been treated fairly rudely by the Oscars. So he's clearly won before. Nope. Nine noms, zero wins.

Lead actor. Mm-hmm. Nine noms. Mm-hmm. Now, I think two of those noms are producing. Oh, is it a Cooper here? It's a Bradley Cooper. Is it American Sniper?

Yeah. Okay. Oh, well, I forgot that one for good reason. He has nine Oscar nominations. Yes. Now, it's actually four for producing. Okay, so it's Nightmare Alley, Joker, American Sniper, and the fourth one is Star is Born. And then also Screenplay for Star is Born.

And then four acting nominations. Right, so it's the three David O. Russells and American Sniper. Correct. No, two David O. Russells, Star is Born, and American Sniper. Sorry, sorry. And yet I'm like, fucking Cooper is missing three noms here. You know, like I'm looking

and obviously no trophy. and obviously you're like, right, right. You're like best director. The first star is born. Uh, licorice pizza, licorice pizza,

supporting actor. Maybe that's it, but I don't know. Maybe there's another nom. I want to slip in for him. Got to think about it. Maybe burnt. He did.

He did. Supporting actor in the mule. Great, great performance. Supporting actor. Enjoy supporting actor in war dogs not bad performances no not at all but no beyond that the weird thing of like they're now treating him like young spielberg where they're like yeah okay we get that you're good right we'll give you nominations sometimes and no wins like the weird kind of chip on their shoulder they seem to have about him i don't know or or or as an actor they're also sort of treating

him like like dustin hoffman or pacino or someone where they're like you'll fucking wait you give it a rest you'll wait and you'll like acting and you'll win for something that's like not by any means right right you'll win when you play right mr Sad in Mr. Sad, the Mr. Sad story. I don't know. What's that about? It's a real sad guy. Sad story. We should add that to the blank check picture slate. I mean, anyway, he was nominated.

I think that his performance in American Slipper is excellent. I do too. That was actually the one that kind of turned me around. I used to be kind of a Cooper skeptic in that one. I was like, I wouldn't have bought this guy as this. No. I love that movie. That's a weird five, though.

Look, talking about weird fives. I think I put Redmayne last. I guess I put Keaton first. I don't love any of those performances. No, you know my... Keaton's, you know... Keaton, we all know Keaton is my guy. And my take on Birdman has always been that he is fundamentally miscast in that movie.

He is. I don't like it. And I think... Birdman's not... Birdman's a doo-doo movie and people get angry when we say this. How dare we. Well, maybe in David and our case is that because we're critics, we're supposed to be like, well, you're mad because the movie's mean to critics or whatever.

But that's not why I don't like them. And then whenever we talk shit about it, people are like, Griffin must like it because he thinks it's an inaccurate portrayal of acting. I'm like, that's one of 87 things like this. I'm just going to say my five for this year is unimpeachably good. You hate when I bring it up.

No, it's not that. It's the thing where you look at a screen and go, wow, this is a good five. It's a good five. Where you give yourself credit for the five. And these are five performances that I think, maybe not one of them, probably not, but four of them were definitely in Oscar consideration.

Okay. Matthew McConaughey in Interstellar. That's the one I would say probably wasn't. But he was sort of riding high then. I agree with you. I think that's his best performance ever. Yeah. Timothy Spall and Mr. Turner.

Oh, that's my winner. I did it for Mr. Turner. Remember when you just grab someone's boob and it shuffles off? He did win Potters and Murmers that year, though. David Yelowo and Selma. Of course.

Yes, weird snub. Ben Affleck in a little movie called Gone Girl Sure And then Ralph Fiennes in the Grand Budapest Hotel That's a complete multiverse choice I mean that could have legitimately happened Those are all movies that got Oscar attention They're all you know

So what the fuck Dick Poop got in I'll say just to re-center the conversation I don't like the movie at all I would have put Cumberbatch in my five So what the fuck? Dick Poop got in. I'll say just to re-center the conversation. I don't like the movie at all. I would have put Cumberbatch in my five. I think that's a good performance. I think he and Keira Knightley are both excellent in that movie.

Yeah, but Griffin, you're biased because you love computers. So I just feel like that's not fair. You love old-timey computers that had like a door. You had to like open the door. Do you guys know this? Computers used to be the size of a room. Now that you've got these things in your pocket, it used to be the size of a room well now he's got these things in your pocket it used to be the size of a room i don't know what you're talking about i only know about turing machines i don't know what you call them today right you

left before the title i know you've been rid of the turing machine i'm leaving now hold on one second i just need to do the firmware update on my turing machine the weirdest weirdest weirdest thing about the Imitation Game is that it won an Oscar for screenplay and nothing else. And that's like the worst thing about it. Yes, yes. I believe it was on this podcast

where I said I wanted the movie Home Again to take the Turing test. God, what a weird... Look, and with that, with that credit... That's a weird Oscar year. Yeah. Let's say, of of course joining us today The first time in a while

So this is my second time doing the last movie In a series Oh cause you did The Witches I think that this movie is a little better than The Witches I'm just gonna say it I remember our Witches episode being us Truly not talking about that movie at all That was Zoom at like 9.45 at night

Right My wife was like 8 and a half months pregnant Brutally not talking about that movie at all. That was Zoom at like 9.45 at night. Right. Like my wife was like eight and a half months pregnant. I was slurping down some red wine in my apartment. It was like in the jam. This was this period of time where we would record really late because you didn't want to record until after your wife had gone to sleep. And the Disney investor conference was that night. You had the issue with the drilling. Oh, that was the other thing.

That made daytime recordings hard. So I was like, well, if we're going to record after five, let's record late. We'd record at like 10 o'clock at night or 9.30 and it was a nightmare. It would just fuck up. I will just say. I don't know.

Those night pods are kind of fun. Sometimes they were cute. Sometimes they were punchy. Sometimes it was nice to do a little night check. Took down an entire bottle of Pinot Grigio during our fucking Marwen episode. Wasn't it like a C-3PO Pinot Grigio or something? It might have been the Skywalker Ram.

You were hitting that Soderbergh liquor? What's the Soderbergh drink? Oh, Singani 63? Sure. Love that shit. I re-upped recently. Okay. Deal on shipping.

Well, he brings it to you. He does. Our guest today is Richard Lawson. Hello. Yeah. Vanity Fair, Little Gold Men, and our Witches episode. Yeah. This is eight timers?

No, it's more than that. Nine timers? Oh, I don't know. I might be a ten. I don't know. I'm behind. I'm going to double check my counting here. I'm sorry.

Okay. Do the math. All right. And literally. Because trolls, trolls. Trolls doesn't count. This is number ten. Wow. Wait, wait. T'm sorry. Okay, do the math. Trolls experience is... Number 10! Wow!

Where's my green jacket? Oh, wait. Hold on. I'll go get it. 10-timer club. Wow. Your first appearance was March 6, 2016. That was Lady in the Water? Mm-hmm. So six years.

Six years? Ten years? And then obviously Trolls the Experience. That was your... You've done two pandemic recordings with us. Mm-hmm. And this is the third, but we're in person, baby. We're in person.

Yeah, we are. But yes, you called this one early, Richard. I threw you a camp. I said, what do you want to camp? And I believe your line, as was relayed to me by David, was I want to do Power of the Dog I want to do Power of the Dog, quote,

for gay reasons. You did say that. Yeah. That's true. I think it's funny because I was thinking about it. I haven't done many queerish movies with you guys, but the other one was Philadelphia, which is really depressing,

and this is also really depressing. But this one at least has some kind of fun with it. I think this movie's very funny. It is funny, but obviously it is also sad. It's bleak. The second time I watched it, I've now seen it three times, I remember being like,

I guess the first time I was just kind of so energized and thrilled to be seeing this major movie. I was seeing it in a big screen and like, I guess I was also just like, what the hell is going to happen? I was kind of on the, the second time I watched it,

I was like, God, this is, yeah, this is very sad. Like, especially obviously Kirsten Dunst character. And I don't know,

just like, everyone's kind of sad. And the third time I was like, yeah, Benny's having fun. It's pretty funny. Mean old bastard with his ban sad. Yeah. The third time I was like, yeah, Benny's having fun. It's pretty funny. Mean old bastard with his banjo. Yeah.

So malevolent. Anyway, no, you've done other queer movies with us. Spanglish, K-19, The Widowmaker. These are all queer classics.

I should say, Home Again is definitely the gayest movie I think you've ever done on this podcast. But gay in like the Victorian sense where you just mean like, woohoo, having a lovely time! It's full of gaiety.

Yeah. That movie is fun and fancy free, right? What did Pico show up in something recently? Pico Alexander? Yeah. Esther was telling me that Pico was back. So I guess he finally escaped. A peek at the Pico?

My basement. I don't know what my joke is there. Oh, he's in The Sky is Everywhere The sort of like young adult Movie that Josephine Decker made That's like dropping on Apple TV like Friday I have a screener sitting in my inbox I need to watch it

I hear it's good though The book is based on Jandy Nelson It's like a really good way Anyway And The Witches is super gay. No, it's not. No, The Witches isn't super gay. It wants to be kind of,

in a way. Yeah. But yeah, this movie, Power of the Dog, I hadn't read the novel. I hadn't, I saw it like a little pre-screening before it was at Venice

in New York and I had no idea what it was about except that it was a Jane Campion. And Jane Campion I like, but when I was a kid, we had a babysitter who was one of my dad's grad students.

Phil Burbing? Yeah. All right, kids, I'm going to... He would talk to us in ancient Greek while wrestling with us. No, she took us to the movies and she really wanted to see the piano. And my sister was, I guess... I'm sorry, you mean the panani? Sorry. The piano. What is it, you mean the panani? Sorry.

The piano. What is it? Panano? Panani? Yeah, panano. The panano. And my sister, who was maybe 11 or 12, that was 93, right?

Yep. 93. They went to that and I was 10. And I was like, absolutely not. It's about old ladies in dresses on a beach somewhere far away. No thanks. So I went to go see the Pelican Brief by myself. Wait, arguably a more

adult movie in some way. It's about legal briefs. I was ready for the swerve to be Little Giants or something. It was the Pelican Brief. It's about like a Supreme Court justice. And I loved it, of course. It was the first movie I ever saw by myself. It was thrilling.

In Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts. Yeah. You as a little boy. Seeing the Pelican Brief. I have no interest in seeing the piano. One for the Pelican Brief, please. I was full Nelson Muntz in Branson, Missouri. Just like...

It's like Mulaney's bit about being the littlest gentleman where he would like take a briefcase or newspaper and go to a diner. It was thrilling. And afterward, I was like, you know, yammering away about the Pelican Brief. My sister could not have cared less. And then she was telling me about the piano and she was like, you see this old man naked. She was referring to Harvey Keitel. But you're imagining a sort of Santa Claus.

Martin Short comes along and tries to steal Christmas. it's like but you're imagining a sort of santa claus yeah like it's all it's it's martin short comes along and tries to steal christmas um like it was all like a piano on some sort of cloudy beach and i was like and so in my head at 10 years old and it took a lot of time into adulthood to like get rid of this i was like jane campion makes weird bad boring movies not bad just like esoterically art artsy and all that stuff and so i went in even now having seen a lot of her other films and like them trepidatious about power of the dog having no nothing about it and i was really like very happily surprised by the fact that it's kind of this mystery not a thriller but like it just it's a really entertaining film in addition to all of its artsy, deep thought kind of stuff.

It's a very unique movie in the way it functions. And it functions in a way that kind of defies logic. Like, you should not be able to construct a movie this way. In that you really—it was only watching it a second time that I realized how much you really don't know what the fuck is going on the first time. Like it is a movie that provides you with no handles to grab on. Well, Bronco Henry. Right.

Well, but it's tough. You have the fucking saddle is on the wall. It was true. I watched it again a third time to speak with you guys. And, um, especially on the third viewing,

it's like this movie tells you what's going to happen literally in the opening like that's wild about opening voice every single thing is is set is set before you uh plainly you know and so that's it's a little it's like it's this little mystery box that like is actually deceptively simple that's what's odd about it i mean this is what i'm. It's like you watch it the first time and you're like, what is this thing? Where the fuck is it going?

Yet, you're still captivated by it, right? Oh, yeah. Very often movies where there's not a clear, like, you don't know whose perspective you're supposed to be, like, seeing things through, who you're sort of aligned with or not.

You know, a character will be a central focus and then disappear for 45 minutes. Like, it's disorienting, but not in a way that ever pushes you out of the movie. You're kind of drawn in, even though you can't really get your bearings on what's going on. Doesn't really come into focus until the moment it ends. Right. Yeah.

And then you watch it the second time and you're like, yeah, obviously. Like, the first time I saw this movie, it took, you know, Johnny Greenwood's score is swelling. They're in the barn after the hides have been given to the Native Americans. And he's tearful. And Cody puts his arm on him, hand on him. And I was like, oh, it's a gay thing. And then in the second viewing, the minute he sees him in the restaurant, it's so patently obvious.

And I think it's just such an interesting, not Rorschach test. That's not the right, you know, analogy. But like, it really morphs kind of like Greenwood's score depending on how you're viewing it. How you're looking at it. That's so compelling. It's odd that it feels elusive in that way, though. And you say it's like a mystery movie, but it's also like the mystery you're watching is where's this thing going? What is the drive of this thing?

And who is it about? Who is it about? What's the drive? Why are all these people put Like, what is the drive of this thing? And who is it about? Who is it about? What's the drive? Why are all these people put together? What is the story? Where's the dog and what's its power? Right, exactly. Then kept on asking.

I mean, the dog, his name is Clifford. He's big and red. Yeah, that's his power. Which is a cool power. He's like an injured military dog and this actor who hasn't worked in like five years is paired up with him. Jane Adams

is bizarrely in there. Dog. Dog. Dog. Dog. Dog. Dog. Dog. Dog. Dog. That's gonna be a ton of money. Channing Tatum saw the power of the dog and he was like... Wait. Hold on a second. Cut the the and the power and the of and the the. It's cleaner. David's doing the hand gesture. I'm just doing the

longer. Oh, yeah. Power of the dog. I also... It's what you David's doing the hand gesture. I'm just doing the longer. Oh, yeah. Power of the dog. I also, it's what you say, Richard. She made the piano. She made the power of the dog. In between, it's not like her movies never resonated with people, but she never had broad appeal for any of them. No, and the piano casts a huge shadow over the rest of her career

up until this movie, arguably, where you're like, yes, that woman No, the piano casts like a huge shadow over the rest of her career up until this movie, arguably where you're like, yes, that woman who made the piano. And this is a movie where it's like, this absolutely feels like the movie she would want to make and would be interested in making.

But once again, somewhat serendipitously, it's just kind of crossed over with being more of a broad, right? Uh, commercial. I mean, it's so hard to say this with like Netflix,

but like, you know what I mean? It does feel like it. The kind of movie that I would tell everyone in my life to watch versus I love in the cut, but I'm not going to be like, you know, everyone should see in the cut when it's coming out. Yeah. No, that's when people

ask me, like, what should I watch? I'm like, well, you've seen Power of the Dog, right? And if they haven't, I tell them to see it, regardless of who they are I'm just like that's a movie anyone would find compelling yeah yeah I mean I took my boyfriend to see it and I afterward we went to see at the Paris which was in which was really fun

well I mean the crowd wasn't fun but the movie you know it was nice to see it on a big screen and afterward I was like so what did you think happened at the end and he was like and he just laid it out perfectly and I was like oh so I did you think happened at the end? And he was like, and he just laid it out perfectly. And I was like, oh, so I guess some people actually just is more accessible in some ways than it was even, you know, for me, who was sort of professionally. So, yeah, I think it has much broader appeal than a lot of campions. What was his take on it?

Well, he knew right from the restaurant scene that there was a sort of gay you know free song yeah something happening he he knew immediately like when cody was riding the horse that he was gonna make him kill you know fill with anthrax like it was like he had it all mapped out and um i this which is an interesting thing because again the movie morphs depending on what you're bringing to it i struggle to watch movies that way not because i just i'm not good at it i'm too like oh yeah like i struggle to predict what's going to happen but i truly was flabbergasted by the end of this to watch movies that way. Not because... I just am not good at it. I'm too like... Oh, yeah. I struggle to predict what's going to happen. But I truly was flabbergasted

by the end of this movie. Yeah. Like I was certainly not what I was expecting at all. I mean, I kept myself very clean. I... Even though I saw... Good, because you look at anthrax.

Thank you. Even though I saw... Anthrax is a sick name for a disease, though. Yeah, also sick name for a band. It might be... Well, yeah. Jinx. Yeah. I'm just saying, though. It, also sick name for a band. It might be. Well, yeah.

I'm just saying, though, it's like probably one of the better disease names. I didn't know until I watched this movie, which is kind of embarrassing, when they said it, and I was like, it's 1925. There's an X at the end. There's no way they had worse. You're like, what, did someone send an envelope to Tom Brokaw? Where are they finding anthrax? There's an X.

That's not a 20s word. They've had that bullshit since Greek times or whatever. Still taking Paxil? Right. Exactly. These aren't old-timey Western words. No, I was going to say, I kept myself fairly clean in this movie. Good thing, otherwise you get an anthrax. Despite seeing it

months after you guys, I had just sort of gone like, yeah, I'm going to gonna like that i want to see that i don't need to read yeah sure i'll read no anything else about it very often like with the with film festival movies like that i'm like cool won't watch the trailer don't need to know anything and the two things i sort of had the back of my mind before seeing it were you calling dibs on it quote unquote for gay for gay reasons. Oh, so you hadn't even seen it, I guess. No.

No. And I was just like, huh, I wonder if Richard has some gay reading of Power of the Dog. Oh, like I saw some subtext in there. Right. Like even watching it, I was not picking up on anything until the scene with the fucking handkerchief. Right. Right.

I thought like Richard's going to have some fucking galaxy brain take on this right no it's a very straightforward yes absolutely yeah um and then david saying the thing to me of like it's one of those movies where you really don't know where it's going and it's not until the final moment that you go oh now i see what she was doing and and when you said that to me i imagined it more in a sort of like oh that's what the movie is really about. Like, maybe the metaphor doesn't click into play. You know, her sort of thematic interests don't sort of become come into focus. But even still, with those two things that you guys had told me, I sat there just being like, huh, I really don't know what this movie is. And I don't know if I'm getting it less than other people. I'm transfixed by it. But like, I have no idea

what the fuck's going on. I would say I didn't really lock in until about the same scene as you and then i was sort of with it but just going like so what is this movie exactly yeah and then yeah and then was completely like thrown off by the ending and and kind of knocked out by the movie and whole and to that end like you know that the you could hear something about that movie like oh benedict cumberbatch plays a sexually oppressed cowboy in the 1920s right and you would watch a lot of that movie and be like this movie is explicitly and maybe solely a tragedy about this like horrible man who you know visits his repression onto a younger person who is more demonstrably himself. But then, at the end of the movie, it's

like, no, the tragedy is about, I mean, it's about Phil, but it's about Cody's, you know, it's about that kid and, like, that the closet has warped him to such a degree that he becomes a murderer, you know? And I just think there's such a surprise throughout the movie in terms of, like, well, again, who it's about and

how it's about that. I think, like, watching the the second time the thing that became so clear to me is like above all else this is a movie about for like unbelievably fragile people right and how differently they deal

with sort of protecting their fragility in like a hostile, tense world. Right. Exactly. Right. And the only guy who comes out of this like really kind of clean is Plemons. Right. Which I kind of disagree with, actually, because I rewatching it again, I think that a lot of I'm sorry about a character named Kirsten Dunst character. a lot of, I'm sorry, I'm bad at character names, Kirsten Dunn's character. I think a lot of Rose's mounting misery

is because, very pointedly, Plemons leaves the film for like a huge stretch. She kind of neglects and lets it fester. And he's like, I'm just gonna stick her in this house with my horrid brother and maybe her son once in a while and I'm gonna go off to town and do whatever. He's so afraid of confrontation.

He can't handle confrontation with Phil or with Rose like he also stopped drinking or anything. He he's not unique in this, but he like really cannot express himself. You know, he's really not good at verbalizing things.

It's why this whole season as like he would get thrown onto lists, I'd be like, look, I love Plemons. He's fucking great, but I'm sort of surprised he's even in the best supporting actor conversation, especially when there's already another supporting candidate from this movie

because he's doing such sort of like just quiet, sturdy work. Right. And then rewatching it, I was like, oh, right. I forgot that he kind of owns the first hour of this movie. That he is sort

of the closest thing to, like, a principal character you have. As much as it is on one. The dancing scene where he cries and says, I'm so happy to not be alone. That scene was so wonderful. But then the other scene that's so sort of telling is when he goes into the back room and he just puts the fucking

wine-dripping blanket over his arm and starts serving the food and whatever where it's just like you're kind of taken by like command this guy is so sort of attentive to the sensitivities of other people he can sense it the thing he says he picks up on her crying all that sort of stuff but you're right there is this question of, why does he leave her for that long? Is he oblivious? Well, he also, I think, railroads her horribly about the piano playing. And because he's not listening to her. Because all he saw was a pretty, lonely woman who he could marry.

She was probably the only such woman for like, what? A hundred mile radius. Hundreds of miles. And so kind of plucked her out of this, what he deemed a lonely, miserable existence. But we kind of, as the movie goes, we're like, actually, maybe it wasn't so bad. Like, yeah, these cowboys would come in and be jerks and she was grieving her husband,

but like, it was better than rotting away in this house, you know, and then he embarrassing her in front of the fucking governor, you know? So I think that like Campion really subtly and, you know, in the script, like teases out that Plemons yes is one of the better people in the movie but even still like is

well he thinks he can just fix it with like yeah we'll bring her piano to the house we'll spruce the house up and it's like the house is kind of terrifying it's sort of dark imposing what no that house was gorgeous she moves to Crimson Peak those interiors were really nice.

And also, and right, and it's like, oh, come on, all this house needs is a lick of paint. Don't mind my brother who, and like Cumberbatch is just like lurking at the top of the stairs. David won't stop miming Cumberbatch playing the banjo. I just want to make it clear. Every five minutes, David is doing banjo hands. And when, you know, and Cumberbatch is basically like i hate you you fat

fuck i see that you and he's like yes brother you know it's been a good 25 years like he cannot you know deal with i guess that's that's sort of more what i'm saying is that plemmons is the only one who doesn't feel sort of broken by the world right like everyone else it's succeeded right central damage on them. And perhaps the casual cruelty of the Plemons character is the thing that gives him the best survival mechanism, which is, he's able to sort of disconnect a little bit.

Whereas everyone else feels, like, too fucking deeply all the time, and has to develop some sort of protective barrier. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's more just that, like, Campion may be arguing that, like, even for a relatively decent guy like Plemons' character, that in this hierarchy in the 1920s in

Montana, that male interest, whether that's conflict or compassion or whatever, still operates higher than the concern for a woman. You know, like Phil is more important to attend to or sort of, or appease or whatever than his wife is because of the way that this social structure is ordered.

Sure. I mean, there's also, there's something to, like, almost all of her films have some sort of conversation with, like, the indigenous people of whatever land her movie is taking place on. And this movie does it a very small amount a little bit and so hides yeah right into adam beach and so the first time watching i'm sort of like what is this doing in here like what is the purpose of this but watching it the American people in general, right? Sure. That there were these people who lived on this land that belonged to them and had this fairly organic life. Right.

And then you had people come from another country who existed in opposition of the country that they were leaving, who were just like, no, this is what America is now. And so much of it country that they were leaving, who were just like, no, this is what America is now. And so much of it was that they had to affect the bravado of how to be tougher and more deserving and appreciative of the land than the people they were stealing it from. That the cowboy, the American cowboy,

exists almost as a performative one-upsmanship of the Native American. Right. Of just like, we have to seem like we are more in touch with this, more in control of the elements, tougher, you know? And that's the whole Phil Burbank thing is just like, how do I inspire respect in people if I just seem like I fucking get this better than anyone else? Right. And it gets to an embarrassing point of like, You can't wash this off of me. I fucking get this better than anyone else. Right.

And it gets to an embarrassing point of like, I should probably stink, right? Like, that's a mark. But it is that thing. It's like, Plemons asking him to wash up is so offensive to him because he's like, this is all I have. Right. If you clean me up, the whole fucking facade is gone. That's the thing.

I'm right back at Yale doing my classics where I'm sure there's a whole backstory there, you know, about whatever happened with some guy at Yale, you know. Right. There's a certain degree of anti- intellectualism that is, like, baked into the very DNA of America because it's an opposition of, like,

the cultured Europeans, I would argue, to a degree, right? And how quickly, like, the cowboy forms as like the archetype of like the alpha male. But then George wants to civilize. Right. And he's like, no,

no, no more ranching. I want to meet the governor and I want to have a nice house and I want to have a nice place that people can come in the railroad. And you know, like all that. And Phil is like, as you say,

he's like ridiculous. Like you can't do that. Like that's not what we're here for and and the the governor and his wife was kind of like flinty and sassy and like and even the parents like they see through him like it's he is he and and the other cowboys kind of tolerate it because he's their employer but like and maybe he's kind of an oddity to them but like like there are people within the very tightly contained world of this movie who also it's not just the audience in our modern times seeing how ridiculous and pathetic he is it's them

right contemporaneously it feels a little full of shit he is tough stuff i suppose yeah if he wants the compliment you know whatever he's castrating bulls with his hands and all that like there aren't that many movies with on-screen castration of any kind that's true as david points out he does do the shit like he has become very good at everything but it's like the dinner with the governor is like the thing he cannot do is he is not a skilled enough actor to be fucking like little lordleroy, academic whiz kid, pretending to be a cowboy, trying to appeal to high society. Right. He knows that, like, if he tries to split the difference with them, he's going to roll all the way back. Sure.

Right. He doesn't want to lift the veil. He just wants to be mean banjo man. David's doing the hand. David's doing the hand. Benny Dict Cumberbatch is incredible casting for this very reason. Because people, I saw

some reactions, maybe even before the movie was out, of people being like, British actor playing a cowboy. He's very good at that. You feel like it's a performance. He's an incredibly cerebral actor.

He's a great actor. And to hire him to play a tough guy feels like a mistake. To hire him to play an American feels like a mistake. Like all these sorts of things. Although I like him a lot. But it is such smart, like, meta casting in that way. I mean, because I sort of blithely said that I haven't liked him in anything before this. I just, you know, thinking back to when Sherlock was such a big show. And I would try to watch it because I was like, this seems like something I should love.

But it was like excruciating for me to watch. That was a show I really struggled with. You know, but watching Power of the Dog, you're like, oh, Campion was like, you guys have been using him wrong. Everyone has used him wrong. This is how you play him you know you you you don't try to like shy away from his you know aristocratic bone structure and and bearing you just kind of use it to make a different point you know it just it's really like genius and the accent work is a little bit you know wobbly from i don't mind it i want to say a couple things for let's do some i want to give you a

little context for this movie because it is interesting obviously the campion took such a long break in filmmaking but uh ben anthrax the etymology greek the word anthrax in greek means carbuncle referring to the pustules you go so that's why it's called Anthrax. Damn. There you go. Sick. Anyway. So yeah, so, you know, Jane Campion. She makes Bright Star. I would say that that salvage is probably too strong. But like, you know,

it sort of mellows the blow of two critically reviled flops. It resets her. It doesn't make a big enough impact to like salvage fully the damage of the previous movies but it does sort of reset her to like oh that's a director who makes critically respectable films um but she does not after bright star have like some usually she would have like a project in the hopper i feel like like she would always have stuff that she's like well i

want to do that next she doesn't really have that she thought about adapting alice monroe's runaway a short story okay uh which she never got off the ground uh she thought about adapting the novel the flamethrowers which was a big those are both great choices for monroe and the flamethrowers i know like the flamethrowers is what is set in like Revolutionary 70s Italy Right? And also the really really desolate American West because it's like these motorcycle races Right

Seems cool It's in the hands of Scott Rudin Which may be why it never came together Of course then she goes on To do Top of the Lake I think we may have forgotten to mention Did we mention that Anna Paquin was supposed to play that role? I don't think we did.

I forgot about that. Because I remember the thing that happened was that show was supposed to be funded by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. And then when Paquin pulled out, I think because of True Blood or something, and was replaced with Elizabeth Moss, they pulled out because they were like, she's not Australian.

Yes. So, like, the BBC came in or whatever, you know, like anyway. There's a part of me that wonders because Power of the Dog was partially financed by the New Zealand Film Commission. like her stature in her career is sort of a like favor of like, we need to get X amount of New Zealand, Australian actors in supporting roles in order to get financing. Because yes, very often these grants from countries, you can't just film there.

You can't just be a director from there. You also need to be employing not just behind the scenes, but on camera locals. Do you think they were upset that Cody Smith-McPhee is from space? Richard, are you Top of the Lake pro, con? Have you seen him? I saw all of the first season. I only saw Little China Girl.

Top of the Lake was, again, because I had that campaign blockage from like age 10, the Pelican Brief Affair. I was like, oh, this is going to be some dirge and that but that show is great I mean you know and I had issues again with accent work I was like oh is Elizabeth Moss doing this right and Australian Fred says it's the best he's ever heard an American do an Australian

accent it's a great show and it again like she you loved it yeah I love it yeah I think it's maybe the best thing she's ever done but yeah I mean it's funny that it's like supposed to do top of the lake which obviously would have been powerful to see them reteam in that sort of way I

mean I'd still love to see adult packman do something with campion again yeah but the final seasons of true blood were way better than anything Jane Campion would ever make so it was where I could have just taken over the last season how dare you I'm trying I don't know. Being a southern vampire.

Suck it. Suck it. Suck it. I recap that show. For the AV Club. Until the bitter end? No, I eventually got to drop it. It got really...

The final season and final episode are among the worst television ever made. Really. I want to do bad things to you. Remember True Blood? True Blood kind of kept HBO going in that post-Sopranos pregame. My roommate was a True Blood fanatic for all of those years.

It was kind of the thing. Yes, it was the thing. It's an enjoyably wacky show, even though, yes, it completely went off the rails. Like I did, you know, that Alan Ball thing where you're like,

I don't know, go off, King. And then you're like, cease going off. Come back in. Go on. Come in, King. But it also, it gave us a lot. It gave us Skarsgård,

you know. It kept Michelle Forbes working for a year or two, you know. Just the year. She was a main ad. That's right, yeah. Anyway,

I like... Has referred to Michelle Forbes as that actor who always gets added to the fourth season of a TV show you're watching. She doesn't swing in. It's true, yeah. Hey, she's first season

on The Killing. The Killing. Okay. Remember The Killing? Okay. But my, all I was going to say here, I don't know if this is where you were going with this, but it's like Paquin hands off to Moss.

Moss was supposed to do this movie. Interesting. She'd probably be good. Yeah, it was supposed to be Moss and Paul Dano. Oh, I'm glad that didn't happen. But absolutely, like, upgrade. The two actors we got are a better fit for it, and there's so much you get.

Once again, just smart casting. You have so much work done for you by the fact that they are a real couple. I feel like so often, when you put real couples on screen, it's that very vulnerable thing where you're like, they don't have that much chemistry. Oh, is that a bad sign?

Or it's like they just want to play up like the fucking sexual magnetism of the two of them. The very easy comfort the two of them have with each other and the intimacy they have with each other helps this movie get their entire relationship set up in like three minutes. Yeah. Okay.

It's so natural that it's just like there's no I mean, it sounds cor corny but like you kind of forget that they're acting yeah exactly I agree with that I just want to say the campion felt doing those top of the lake seasons even though season two doesn't go over as well yeah helped

change the perception of her in positively true she thought it was good it was good for me and she says the atmosphere has changed I really feel like I've reached granny level. Don't be rude to granny. You know?

System respects your longevity in the industry. I feel that. So, you know, whatever. Certainly the most watched thing she's done since piano. Has to be. Has to be.

And when she brought China Girl to Cannes, she was seen at many a party by myself with my own eyes Oh just dancing like a maniac Oh she really dances Like every party I've ever seen her at

She's always As well that she's a fucking dance machine Yeah that's her thing She's a party monster So yeah she also as we know In this interim Chaired the 2014 Can jury Gave the Palme d'Or to Winter Sleep So, as we know, in this interim, chaired the 2014 Cannes jury,

gave The Palme d'Or to Winter Sleep, which put me to Winter Sleep. Hey, David. I was supposed to see that movie, the first movie at Cannes, because I arrived after the festival had already started, and we got to the Airbnb, and I was like,

do I now want to watch a three-hour movie called Winter Sleep? And I said, no. Thus began my great tradition of not seeing The Palm Door when I'm at Canton by accident. Beyond All... Did you not see Tatan? No, I did see Tatan, and I didn't like it. She considers

retiring after Top of the Lake, but then she reads this book by Thomas Savage that was, like, a critically acclaimed book when it came out, but it's not a well-remembered book has fallen out of print when did it come out? 67 I'd never heard of it and he was like a gay author, queer author

and it was like it must have been kind of bold for that to be published at the time given the subject matter it's semi-autobiographical from the perspective of yes and all he wrote I think or mostly what he wrote were westerns and like were about for yes and all he wrote i think were mostly what he wrote were westerns and like we're about for sure life and all that um it's i think it's an acknowledged influence on brookback mountain the story like any pool uh but uh it got reprinted sometime in the 2000s and campion

stepmother judith sent her the book just they are always apparently sending each other books she reads it and not in this way of like i'm looking for a project she just reads it yeah and is like i fucking love this book uh let's see what most impressed me was thomas savage had lived on a ranch that this was his life this was not a romantic vision of the west he had moved to a ranch with his mother which is the story that he's telling in the book. Right. And the brother of the man that his mother married was this talented chess player who went to Yale and was a

mean bully. So clearly, yes, this is inspired by real life. Pretty fascinating. Pretty fascinating. And so she just can't put this book away. She finds out that some Canadian guy owns the rights to it she

reads oh my god this whoa okay it was jim carrey huh um apparently it's gerard de perju's favorite novel and that is why this canadian guy had bought the rights he read that in an interview and he's like gerard loves this novel are the rights available like i want to make it as a play of like right okay gotcha apparently at one point at one point in time does that i think we're talking like the late 80s like early night at one point paul newman was attached to play phil who kind of a cool idea yeah um and they meet she meets this Canadian guy. His name is, um, Roger Frappier. Okay. Is he credited in this? Yeah, he is.

He's a credited producer on this movie. And they meet at Cannes. And he's basically, she's basically like, come on, man. Like top of, you know, let me do it. I'm top of the lake right now. I'm top of the lake right now. They get the funding together. Uh, budget apparently is about $30 million.

Her most expensive film to date. Wow. together uh budget apparently is about 30 million dollars her most expensive film to date wow and um you know she she just wanted to recreate the thrilling shocking experience she had reading it they they shot this during the pandemic obviously because the you know we're living in the forever pandemic right or in new zealand uh in new ze Yeah. They didn't start shooting before the pandemic, right? It was a project that was like getting ready to go, pandemic hits,

and then they sort of wait out when it feels vaguely safe to film? Or did they film a little bit? They started shooting January 2020. Okay. And production was halted

in March. I'm seeing here because of the pandemic of the novel coronavirus. The novel coronavirus. Interesting. And then production resumed in June.

Okay. And concluded in July. So, you know. I mean, we're at, I think, the tail end of this. He and Cumberbatch was in character and refused to speak to Dunst on set. Wow. They were, you know, doing that whole thing.

I think we're at the tail end of it now. But it has been interesting. And probably six months from now we'll be fully out of these, but movies that had unplanned six month breaks in the middle of shooting. Right. It's a very unique phenomenon where it's like this movie fucking nightmare alley,

jackass forever. Batman is like one of the last big ones that had that effect. The last day of the card counter. The last day of the card counter? The last day of the card counter? I would love to know if I ever interview Schrader, I'm like, what's the one day? Like, what's in this movie that you had to shoot after a fucking six month break? It was so funny. Just the fingers. When he was like,

just let me do it! Yeah, his Facebook on like March 12th. And he's like, get me gone to fucking town! It must be really hard to get back into that mood or filming. Yes! That's why I find it so fascinating. There's that one, I mean, this is the fucking casino. It must be really hard to get back into that mood or filming. That's why I find it so fascinating. There's that one. I mean, this is not exactly related, but remember the show Rome, the HBO show?

Yes. So they built this, you know, ancient Roman street set. How long did it take? Like a day? Like Cinecitta or something. Yeah. Thank you. That was good.

Well done. You. Boing. You flipped me over. Fiver for you. Well done. You. Boom. He flipped me up. Fiver for you. Comedy point Fiver. They were about to start filming or something. And then this like huge storm blew through Rome.

And they were like, oh, my God. Like the set we just finished building. It's destroyed. And they went back. But it was like grass had started poking up through the thing. And they were like, wait, this is perfect. So I wonder if in some sense it's like maybe sometimes this six month COVID

break helps or maybe not. That's why I think it's interesting. It's hard to quantify, but some films I do get the sense of like, this might have helped them. The perspective, the distance, the time to reset in the middle, all that stuff. Look at the script and you're like, wait, why are we doing this? Right. And other movies

less so. But I'm surprised this doesn't feel like, I couldn't remember which one it was, but this doesn't feel like a movie that had break. What it seems like when I'm reading, it seems like most of the exteriors were done. And most of the stuff they did post-break were interiors on sets in Auckland. The exact opposite of how you would want things to go during a pandemic. But also, New Zealand was infamously the single safest place to film Right Getting back to her

Annie Pruel She talks to Annie Pruel The author of Brokeback Mountain About like Phil's homosexuality And how to reveal it Like how much to get into it Because I think it's a lot more coded in the book In the book she says it's sly.

Right. But there are muscle men magazines and obviously, yeah, Bronco Henry. There was a big discussion over Bronco Henry. Would we have any images?

He's this powerful ghost. I made this rule. No flashbacks. We'll move chronologically. It gives an audience a sense of security when they can, you know,

what they can get to know, what they can't. Flashbacks, she, totally the right call. No joke intended, if they had ever shown Bronco Henry in this movie, it would lose 25% of its power. I think so. It would have been cool to see him in the sky at night, you know what I mean?

That would be, if the clouds formed into his head. Yeah, that would be kind of cool. So, like, Bronco Henry, obviously, has a lot of meme value, right? People really

took to the Bronco Henry idea the moment this movie hit Netflix. I find Bronco Henry so funny. It's one of those things where any time it's referenced, I find myself giggling, even when it's referenced i find myself giggling even when it's referenced in the movie or in conversation or whatever and i was trying to think like what is it that's so inherently funny about bronco henry to me and then i realized it's the bill braski thing it's bill braski it's the idea of just like there's something about this name that's

just like bronco and he wants to jump a horse over a bar or whatever, and you're like, okay. And that he feels so abstract that you're like, here's this fucking bullish name that everyone keeps on fucking talking up, and in your mind you can't reconcile what this person would look like or how he would behave. I mean, virtual characters like that are incredible. I mean, Beckett would tell you, obviously.

But I think it works so well in this because the more you hear this ridiculous name right and these exploits that like who knows because it's all these younger guys being like tell us another tale of bronco henry who knows if it's real right but like it just makes phil look you know he starts let's say 40 and then he's 32 and then by the end of the broncos henry stories he's like an eight-year-old boy you know that's the other thing of the Bill Braski effect you know which it's like the more they talk about him the more these people

seem kind of pathetic yeah where you're like why do they idolize this fucking guy so much and it's also not to their whole existence is based on they can't stop talking about fucking Bill Braski it's also deeply un butch in a way like like like this obsession with this like cool guy from the past you know like

you're talking about it's nature out there it's hard to tame it or like no one can do it except for bronco henry obviously who is 18 feet tall like it it really feels like a lot of yeah a lot of the anecdotes could be followed then why don't you marry him right

fucking anthrax would you do it yeah i would also just the way phil is like george remember what we were doing earlier and george is like what oh i don't rightly know he's like we were hanging out with bronco henry for crying out loud like he only wants to tell the one story it's it's really like it's really like tony soprano waxing nostalgic about the old days. Sure. You know, but... Wrong silent type. Yeah. And then, you know, Bronco Henry narrating from a gravestone, you know, in the prequel for this movie. Now you're wondering

how I ended up here. Me, Bronco Henry. Sorry if I sound funny. My neck's a little sore. Yeah. Can I say, there was such a huge spoiler at the beginning of that movie which movie many sense of new or amazing sure i was so excited to watch that right i go to see that in theaters

i'm loving it i get home i turn on hbo max i'm like they already have a spinoff series and i know this is this thing they've been planning on doing of like oh we'll do an hbo max batman series and the dune series or whatever But then I watched the show and I'm just like, well, this fuck, you've spoiled the thing. I know where this... I should have gone to get a drink while you did that. Should have gone taking a walk around the block. My bit was I genuinely saw

Many Saints of Newark in theaters without ever having watched an episode of this. You were the one. I said to you, I want to do it Phantom Podcast style. Anyway, I want to tell this. JJ is earnest. I mean, one thing is Jane Campion combo of being incredibly smart and cool in interviews and just being old and like who gives a fuck. Yeah.

So apparently while she's writing this film, she has crazy dreams about being on a big black horse. film she has crazy dreams about it being on a big black horse and so she goes to a dream analyst and like gets into her head and like is like this was such a great process analyzing my fears and so she makes cumberbatch cumberbatch do it too she's like you're gonna go to a dream analyst yeah and cumberbatch is like but jane campion's dreams are rich in imagery they're sexual and fantastical and spiritual exploding orchids of blood and I'm dreaming about not being able to climb a tree. My dreams are boring. I'm a dumb actor. Is this the longest research dossier?

Yeah, it's 24 pages long. I can't do it all, but there is so much good stuff in there. I think JJ kind of likes to top himself sometimes. He does. He was posting he was doing victory laps on Twitter about the fact that he'd broken this one to chapters. Well, much like the movie.

Bronco Henry used to like to top himself, too. Hey. That's just one of the many amazing things that man could do. Truly, every time we mention him by name, I start like, Bronco Henry. I made a Bronco Henry joke when we're recording this. The Oscar nominations came out yesterday

about the In Memoriam having Bronco Henry joke when we're recording this. The Oscar nominations came out yesterday about the In Memoriam having Bronco Henry in it. Because I found a photo of a metallic blue mannequin head that's wearing a cowboy hat with a crocheted dick and balls on it. Right. Rip.

I will remember you. I'm supposed to be writing a magazine piece with a really short turnaround time and I'm just giggling in my apartment about Bronco Henry. It's the thing. It's like Bill Braski where it's like you can say anything about it.

You can assign any visual descriptor onto him. If she like cast Nick Nolte, but he's not in the movie. He was just on set sort of glowering at people. Like Matthew Broderick in the Christmas story where he's just standing there staring. Right. He was just on set, like, sort of glowering at people. Like Matthew Broderick in the Christmas story where he's just standing there staring,

but no one can see him. Right. I don't know if you ever watched that. Right. You're just like, so were his scenes cut out? No, no, no. He was never even written

into the script. No. He wasn't even on set. We just had, he stayed at home and we told people, just know Nick Nolte is playing Bronco. Exactly, exactly.

Yeah. Here's some other things she did. So, they gathered the actors for three weeks to hike To improvise, not really rehearse But like do exercises I'll say that's a value to starting production

Before the pandemic Because once the pandemic starts That shit you can't fucking do All that stuff has to be cut, essentially They ate together, they cooked together They would sit in rooms together in character Not talking She had Cumberbatch write a letter to Bronco Henry She had Cumberbatch write a letter to Bronco Henry.

She had Cumberbatch write a letter from Bronco Henry back to Phil. She had Cumberbatch and Clemens waltz together to learn intimately how they smelled, felt, and moved. Because she was like, you guys have been in it for 25 years. You need to be like that. Pretty cool. And then she goes to montana to see savage's ranch i think thinking maybe we'll shoot here and was like it's too modern

there's like infrastructure there's oil dairy you know like it doesn't it's not gonna work and so she's like let's shoot it in new zealand like you know because it's it's these incredible mountains it looks like a fantasy. Which ended up being a very, very beneficial move in retrospect. Completely agree. They have more shooting freedom than most productions

that started up again during this. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It doesn't feel... You know, it's funny. I watched Marry Me last night, the Jennifer Lopez,

Owen Wilson. I'm jealous. And that was filmed before the pandemic. Should I be jealous? No, it's interesting. It's a good time. It's basically been stripped of any possible comedy

because Jennifer Lopez can never have the joke be on her. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's fun, though. In an odd sort of way. I like that it exists. And it's gentle.

Yes, right. It's nice and glossy and it was like, the big thing was like, oh, it was filmed before the pandemic so they could do more. But Power of the Dog looks like more of a pre-pandemic movie than yeah like something that was actually shot before i don't know i mean i guess that's like i don't know yeah i get it but

shooting all the extras before the pandemic is interesting i don't know yeah um to get everyone excited about coming back actually you guys are talking about this break that they took they cut together like a sizzle reel of everything they'd shot already just to kind of get everyone excited which is sort of a cool idea yeah yeah yeah um anyway uh benedict cumberbatch this is the thing and i've heard this from other people who are trying to make movies he is a green light yeah and like i think some people would be surprised to hear that because it's sort of like you know does everyone know who he is but it's like Because of Doctor Strange and his

General ubiquity every studio Is like green you ever been to the Cumberbatch On board you get finance With a certain cap I would guess on the finance There's another massive budget movie That he was supposed to be in that he ended up Not being in but the minute he was cast the studio

Was like yep you got it. What movie was that? I don't want to say it on mic, but I'll say it off mic. Oh, interesting. But I was just sort of, I was like, really? Cumberbatch? And it's like, yeah, man, it's that Marvel thing. I think there are a couple other things. And Sherlock. Yeah, I was going to say. Like, Sherlock, streaming,

television being sort of global. I think that did a lot for him. I think we forget that Imitation Game made $100 million domestic. They honored the man, honored the film. Richard and I were most of that.

We just kept going back. But I would walk out before the final titles part. I don't want to know what they're called now. Can't tell me. But yes, I think that's a movie that actually really kind of boosted his budget because, look, the Marvel thing is the Marvel thing, right? But I think not every Marvel actor maybe has immediate green light power to that degree. that degree i think the fact that he was able to take like an oscar baity movie and make a crossover in addition to him being this like global tv star right that he's big in like every

country um no one looks like him no one looks like him he's certainly unique no one sounds like him no not really what was the fucking thing oh god why am i forgetting this now there was i was watching something with romilly where she was like who's that actor and i was like it's benedict cumberbatch who do you think it is and i couldn't believe that she didn't immediately recognize him but now i can't even he's not a chameleon nick actor i'll say this for his looks i was in telluride where this movie played uh last labor day and he was there um we were like an outdoor event and i met him and he was wearing jeans a white t-shirt a baseball cap and had scruff like hadn't shaved in a few days gorgeous by the way but like did kind of look a little bit more like like he he might actually be capable that he just hasn't done it.

Sure. Because that's not how the industry thinks of him or whatever. It was no way home. Bromley and I went and saw it no way home, which she's seen like no other Marvel movies. She showed up and she said, who's that actor? That's really funny.

That's why, that's why it was so fun. Cause the most extreme example of that, but, but this is a weird thing I was thinking about. Like he has more value because the stuff he's done outside of Marvel

has also been successful commercially and crossed over, right? Current war, obviously. Huge hit. Which means, I think things like the current war,

but also, what was that fucking movie that came out last year that was like him as a spy or some shit? The Courier. Like, not just is he

a green light for big budget shit, studio shit, whatever, but it's like, those kinds of like $20 million adult dramas that don't really get made anymore. If you want to get one made, you kind of need him in it. He's a good five estate movies. Yeah.

You know? Yes. I've only seen the fifth one, but it's a franchise. But the thing I was going to say about him and just the phenomenon of casting a Marvel actor in your smaller movie or art house movie or indie movie or drama, your whatever, is that like so much of the value is you're going to get so much free publicity by sending those actors out to do any sort of press tour or

festivals. And then they will get hit by the questions about the upcoming Marvel movie and people scourging for any spoiler or secret and then that getting recirculated to the high heavens. It's funny that that's so much of the like, getting an actor on like a late night talk show doesn't really fucking move the needle or a magazine cover, any of those things.

The cachet is just, while you're promoting your smaller movie, do you have a bigger movie upcoming that interviewers will try to sneak in questions and any offhand mention you make will go viral on Twitter? Right. I'm curious how far you think that extends for people in the MCU. Like, is that true for Elizabeth Olsen? I mean, maybe now after WandaVision, but like, you know what I mean? Because there's so many actors involved, but I feel like Cumberbatch has the Marvel thing, but also he has like the nerdy Tumblr fan people from Sherlock. That's a whole other contingent.

Right. There's a weird sort of mix of Cumberbatch elements that add to his value. Right. Where you're like, this weird fucking heartthrob status. What's Super Hulock? Isn't that a term from Tumblr fan fiction?

Really? Where it's supernatural and Sherlock fanfiction? Well, Super Hulock is just... And Doctor Who, obviously. That is just the general term for what dominated Tumblr at the time. The sort of engine of that kind of fandom in like around 2010. Those three shows. To have that and

Marvel fandom, which are distinct things, is fascinating. Right, and then also sort of highbrow, like legitimate actor sort of... Sure, yeah legitimate actor is sort of sure yeah absolutely right his name's sticky too he's got a good name you don't forget i feel like the name is kind of a part of it a little bit too because like i just i don't know i somehow have always known his name are we talking about bronco henry now yeah but this is also when when my fucking sister turns to me and goes who's that actor i had this moment of glee where I'm like, I get to now say Benedict Cumberbatch.

You know, like there's nothing. That's the funniest punchline. It's like saying the Aristocrats or something, you know, where you're just like, I almost said Aristocats. I mentioned how methody he was. He was Phil on set and all that. He said that he refused to wash for a while to try and and then he was so stinky that you like couldn't take him anywhere this is one of those movies where you feel like you can smell it yeah he's pretty great like when clement tells him to take a bath and then he's kind of like

you cut to the roof like back to phil just see that you're like god yeah it is really interesting to watch someone of cumberbatch's stature like in terms in terms of, like, he's a big franchise actor. He's a respected, you know, like, British thespian kind of guy. Sure. To just do a role like this that is just routinely so embarrassing. Yes. Like, it's not, it's not like the actual

Marble Man tough guy. It's that embarrassing approximation of it. And it's just like, I think that's really brave in a way. Like, there aren't a lot of marquee movie stars who would be willing to do that. No, and who are

unique enough in their whole energy, their look, their demeanor, what have you, that them doing these things has its own unique power. You know what I'm saying? I think Chris Evans is somewhat underrated as an

actor, but he is such a Kendall that it's like it's not as sort of fascinating as it is watching benedict cumberbatch put a beard and a cowboy hat on and then dance around with a bandana and like you know right right exactly yeah because i think with evans it would be like oh he's doing dress up but you know whatever right like right here there's actually, like, I don't know, there's something different happening,

something more happening. Yes, yes. And it is, he seems very unafraid to do things that other actors could find embarrassing and in a poorly executed movie would become, like, the shit of fucking Twitter legend. Like, it would just be, like, everyone would joke about this fucking scene can you imagine what he

does right like like how many big like what few like bankable movie stars are left would like do like the tough cowboy role that where people keep talking how much he smells and it's like pathetic right right right that's not common like knowing me like that like there's no ego involved there which is not necessarily

a quality that I would have put on him before seeing this movie. Great Plemons quote here. Apparently, at one point, he's in character, he called Plemons Big Boy instead of Fatso, which I think Fatso was in the script. And Plemons was like, that really got under my skin. I feel like a few people in my life

have been like, hey, Big Boy. And I was like, goddammit, what the fuck? So, like, I like that Plemons admits that that little tweak he does found its way through the armor or whatever. Yeah. It just seems like he's really good at playing someone who can look at you and kind of figure out what your vulnerability is.

Because that's what Phil is good at. Yeah. Because that's his intelligence at work. He's a catty old queen. He's a neat fucking roommate. As Franan former guest for best future guest said like this is a movie about having a bad roommate yes well this is also a sir violet bliss past a future guest uh did our sweetie episode hadn't seen power of the dog yet watch it about a week or two after we record it and texted me and said like there are a lot of similarities between that and Sweetie, right?

Like, they're both sort of, like, bad roommate family member comes in, disrupts the balance of the house. Right, and just that simmering tension of just, like, the alliance is shifting, what's gonna go wrong here? Like, knowing there's some tragic

end coming. Yeah, it's... God, it's fascinating but but it that that is that's a cumberbatch value you get in this movie which is few actors project intelligence more consistently than him right right and it's something about it is annoying like the kind of intelligence that could craft a turing machine but something like this you just go like when he's at the beginning he's just sort of playing tough ranch or whatever you're like he's too smart and intellectual for this and then once you start to realize that scene where they like where who is it kardine the governor he says like i heard

your brother uh he he studied the classics right yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're just, like, the first time watching, I was like, Who are they talking about? Exactly. What? Exactly. It really is. Right, and then from that moment on, you're just like, oh, it's all a chess game for him. He actually is paying attention to everything that's going on. That's what's so brilliant about the directly

sort of chronological approach to the fact that George is not one to drop exposition Jesse Plum right so Right like when someone says something like That to him you're genuinely surprised Right like about his brother you're like Phil's his brother Phil but Phil's

Like a mean old rancher Bronco Henry's a friend Like wait what do you mean he went to Yale Stuff like that like the way she Layers in exposition without It ever feeling that way or layers in new dimensions to the same thing with creepy little cody peter we gotta we gotta talk more about when he gets the bunny yeah and i'm like right because this is like a sweet sensitive kid and then like pretty much the next scene is him dissecting the bunny yeah yeah and thomas and

mckenzie is like horrified right and i'm I'm horrified. But then I'm also like, the kid lives on a, why am I horrified by this? Right. He lives on a ranch. Like animals are being killed every day. I don't know why this is upsetting me. And isn't he a medical student?

Like, you know. Yeah. He wants to be, but then there is something about the precision of what he's doing that you're like, this is kind of unsettling that he knew exactly how to do this. And let his mom bond with it. Yes.

Yes. And then did it. Knowing he was going to do it all the while. Yeah, right. And that whole scene is so good too where he comes in and she's in bed. He hides the bottle under the pillow. Yeah. Yeah.

There was someone I was talking to. I can't remember who. And I'm not putting it on blast. And I also just can't remember who it was. I'm sorry. Bronco Henry? The best talker there ever was. Did I ever tell you about the time

I talked to Bronco Henry? He talked your ear right off and on. He talked a horse dead once. I just, hold on one second. Talked his way through a mountain. Yes, what happened? Deadline saying that Spotify just signed a $200 million deal

with Bronco Henry. Oh no. He's going to take over podcasting. Rogan is running for the hills. Complete creative control, no censorship. Bronco Henry. You know Bronco Henry invented the phrase lock the gates. Complete creative control. No censorship. Bronco Henry. You know,

Bronco Henry invented the phrase, lock the gates. It was just stolen from him because he didn't have a podcast until now. Right. Marin. When Marin bathes himself in the lake, then he'll draw Henry's handkerchief. Bronco Henry was the best at locking gates.

I ever saw that. No one could lock a gate like Bronco Henry come on Blanket Mark Barnes the thing I was going to say someone I was talking to was like I was a little confused

by the Dunst character because it feels like she's got her shit together and then like the presence of Cumberbatch just like completely unravels her right

right and I think watching it a second time A I think this movie uses sort of like ellipses and jumps in time very interestingly which is the thing i think she does in a lot of her work right where you suddenly are like wait has a day passed or six months right in the way that like most of the plemons dunce courtship happens off screen we see these two kind of very

quiet moments he mentions offhandedly that they've gotten married. Right? And we just, we missed the wedding. We missed the progression of their relationship. Brock and Henry officiated. It feels like it goes from being a flirtation to, I'm telling you, we've been married. She's moving in.

Right, exactly. Did he have a wife already or something? No. He's been too busy being a rich man. I think he was a perpetual bachelor. Right. And without going to- He's like a sad sack. He's been too busy being a rancher man. I think he was a perpetual bachelor and without going to He's like a sad sack. He's like a Marty.

I have family, older family members, one of whom is no longer alive, for whom that was true and I think one of them was kind of a closet case and the other one married late in life

and it destroyed the other brother. Right, because that was the partnership. Because Phil's assumption is, well, he's what? My brother's like late, I mean, in 1925,

like late 30s and not married. I'm in the clear. And a fatso, quote unquote. But the success is what causes him to be attractive in a way, right? Like the success they built up with this. And then you have the devastating line that Phil doesn't hear,

but probably feels it anyway when Plemons says to Rose it's so good to not be alone anymore but you have your brother but he doesn't think of him that way well it's also that like fucking Phil is like negging him all the time like Phil is just constantly like he's the worst party guest

right mocking him treating him like shit and like you know Plemons what what's, George is his character's name? Yeah. Is clearly a very sensitive guy, and a thoughtful guy, an intellectual guy, even if he's not good at expressing himself. And he's just like completely abandoned.

It's like, you know, Phil playing this like mind game, and then he's surrounded by a bunch of boys. Like the other fucking cowboys in the group are just like young boyish hooligans and very cleverly painted as that you know there is that one scene where George

walks into the barn and Phil is like doing some rope or some saddle shit with one of the cowboys whose name we don't know and there's a look that it passes between them where he's like again you know right I don't know if that's necessarily supposed to be happening right but like george knows he is fully not of that like that right that's that's phil's business and his

company and but but they're not right they're not company for him and his relationship with phil is like this business agreement yeah and the familial ties but phil is just constantly trying to fucking keep him in check. Like, it does feel like Phil is very aware of the fact that he has to threaten George's masculinity in order to get George to be completely beholden to him, right?

Right. So I think there's part of the mind game of just being like, you can't fucking marry anyone, you fat piece of shit. So the second he meets a woman, I mean, Phil's response is that sort of like what is this about is this about getting laid you don't have to marry some old

lady if you want to get laid yeah i i'll say i think that there's something you know my my coming out experience was was obviously i wasn't it wasn't in 1925 montana but like there if you have a close male friend if you're a gay kid, a boy, I'm sure this is true for other people as well. Like there is a resentment that can sort of blurt out

when you realize that for straight people, not for every individual. It's easy. You can just, like this weird, you know, kind of overweight bachelor

who lives in his, like this weird Crimson Peak mansion. Like, no, he can get married like he can. He can find a lady in town. Yeah. And that's that. And Phil knows that, like, for him, it's pretty much impossible because the one person he could do that with is dead. Like, I just think there's something really like keenly observed about that.

Yes. And that's why he sort of terrorizes Dunst is that it's like she represents the thing that he cannot have. You know, and he throws the like you're an interloper you're just trying to steal money. Right.

He doesn't really believe that. Right. He's just mad that she's there at all and he's trying to like he's trying to create a public reason for why he wouldn't like her that's like socially acceptable.

Right. Which is that he's suspicious of her. Right. Phil could not make a home with someone he loved. Right. I do think he correctly sees in her that she is

a sad and vulnerable person. Now, obviously... He preys on weakness because... He decides to just jab at them. Right. Right. But, like,

he could be nice to her. He could. What if that movie was about him being nice to her? Welcome to my home. Make yourself comfortable. Marry me. Do you want to play the banjo?

Like, obviously, like, there are moments where you're like, my home make yourself comfortable marry me do you want to play the banjo like but like obviously like there are moments where you're like they might have things in common especially if he's this more well-read you know like right and now i want hallie myers-shires hours at top nice boy yes yeah like three nice boys i'd like one of the boys is a huge bronco Henry fan and it's like wait your dad knew Bronco Henry that'll be good Candice Bergen's in it you're Bronco Henry's daughter some more so on Cumberbatch's

last day of filming his last shot when shooting when camp being called cut the lights came on the cast the cast and crew all popped champagne and started playing Jeff Buckley's Hallelujah because they were so happy

that he would not be in character anymore. They were basically like saying goodbye to Phil and saying hello to Benedict. Benedict Cumberbatch, he was very embarrassed. Another thing about Dunst, she would sit in silence for hours before filming because she's like Rose can't vocalize how she feels

and I wanted to like get in that mind her performance is really good yeah okay so to circle back I would say gets better every time I see it and I liked it a lot I mean watching this a second time my thought was I can't wait to watch this a third time because it's clearly a movie that's just going to keep unfolding and there's so much

in every single scene but also a weirdly very watchable movie for a movie that's quite going to keep unfolding and there's so much in every single scene. But also, a weirdly very watchable movie for a movie that's quite serious and dramatic and sad. Like, every time I throw it on, I'm like, hell yeah, this scene's coming up. But it's that campy thing where she just identifies some weird energy in every scene that's not what you expect and you can't quite put your finger on, whether

it's a performance thing or whatever it is. But, um, this not-straw person friend of mine who said the thing about the dunce performance, right? I'm like, A, through the ellipses of time, we don't know to what degree he's actually fucking with her, right? Right, right. So, like, I'm not saying there are worse things offscreen that we're not seeing, but the pervasiveness of it is perhaps only reflected to us in a couple key moments. Right.

Where it's like, the banjo thing is just sort of like, weird and eerie and certainly annoying. And I think to some people they go like, well, and then she starts like, binge drinking the next day. And it's like, we are left to infer whether that has happened for 30 consecutive nights. Right. Yeah.

And also she is- Could be the kid's whole school year, you know? It could be a long time. Exactly. Right. He's gone for a long ass time. And she is just a fragile person in general she's a vulnerable person in general the fact that cody schmidt mcphee uh pushes the bottle away shows you this is a thing she's had a pattern of doing

in the past she is a widow like there are just you know she she is together at the beginning of the film but when you're watching it a second time, you are aware of the fact that she is made out of porcelain. She is just so delicate. I think that's one reason Phil resents her so much, because he sees himself in that. He's lashing out of vulnerability. Because that great monologue he has near the end after she's given away the hides,

where he's like, she was drunk, pie-eyed! He's screaming. You're like, this is really an intense reaction to something that's not a big deal. She's the worst combination that, A, she was drunk, pie-eyed. He's like screaming. You're like, this is really an intense reaction to something that's not a big deal. She's the worst combination that A, she represents the sort of happy domestic life that he could never live himself, right? That his brother has access to

and it's quote unquote easy. And B, she's just like an open wound. Yeah, and I think he also... And both of those things are threats to him. Chill, chill. You're not supposed to... You're supposed to lock it all away. When he first meets her,

there are little moments where she is showing tendernesses toward her fae, strange son. Right. With a scowl on her face, taking the flowers back off the table after he lights a cigarette with one. And she's clearly supportive of him

having him come to the ranch. And I think that, like, he's envious of that kind of attentive care from a mother figure that he probably we can glean from his relationship with his mother that we like doesn't have and yeah she and she she represents care in a way that he's never felt and yet over the course of the movie she starts to fall apart and starts kind of facing the wrong direction i mean she thinks that phil is going to turn her son into him and to this like hardened asshole,

but actually they're sharing something much deeper and unspoken that she doesn't really. And I think that Phil kind of sees that as her pie eyed and whatever. Right. Like this woman, he thought from a distance maybe actually was like one of the good ones. No, she's just as clueless as the rest.

But I think there's another aspect too, which is that, uh, to some degree, you know, everything in his life is so aggressively constructed and weaponized, right? That, like, whatever jealousy he feels of the fact that Cody is being treated with a sensitivity that he could not get from his mother as a child, that perhaps is also a sign of a world slowly becoming more and more modern, you know, and that resentment. There is also the fact that I think,

and this is indicated by the fact that he, like, after mocking the kid so thoroughly when he gets an opening, decides to so completely take him under his wing and be like, I'm going to fucking teach you how to be a man, where I think he thinks it's almost a little bit irresponsible that Dunst isn't, like, slapping going to fucking teach you how to be a man. Where I think he thinks it's almost a little bit irresponsible that Dunst isn't slapping in the back of the head

and going, toughen up. Oh, you're going to parade this kid in front of all these cowboys? You can't do that. If she's not going to help you, I'm going to help you. Right. He's bragging about his paper flowers to them, basically. How fucking horrifying. And the shock or the sort of sense of shock you feel in the scene

where he's like, oh no, sir, I made them. And it's like, Jesus, kid, what are you doing? You can maybe do this in New Haven, but not here. What do you guys think of Cody Smith-McPhee as Peter? The fourth performance.

We haven't talked about it much yet. Okay, so just parallel for a second because we didn't talk about it in the episode and I can't believe we didn't talk about it because I think it's one of the master strokes of that movie. But Bright Star has the end credit sequence where you just have Wishaw reading Keats' poems

over the titles, which is just like an incredible thing. I feel like I haven't seen movies ASMR practically. Yeah. You're just tingling. But also you're so used to end credit sequences having just like the score playing. Bloopers. I expected Bright Star to have some bloopers. I was a little upset that it didn't actually.

Right. Or if characters are talking in the end credits it's usually in a jokey way like that. To in a drama have a character's voice stay with you in the end credits is interesting. Comes in the bonnets on the wrong way around. This movie has the opposite thing which is it doesn't have an narrator. But just this opening passage over the opening credits you have his voice disassociated and then

you enter into the film and like i'd completely forgotten that was the opening the first time i watched it i did not clock and then as you say the second time you watch it you're like oh shit i didn't realize he's telling you started, I'm going to kill someone to protect my mother. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's like so upfront. But then, yes, then one of the first, I mean, you see the guys and they're fucking wrestling,

whatever. And then one of the first images you see after sort of just like Western tough guy miscellanea is the hyper closeup of the flower. This like amazing artistry. I mean, it's like impressive. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then once you cut out Wyatt to this kid, you're like, he doesn't stand a

fucking chance. Especially because Cody Smith-McVie is this sort of thin, odd, kind of angular. And he worked, I think, with a coach just so he's sort of stooped over a little bit. He's got sort of a funny posture. He's got the lisp, obviously. Yeah, absolutely. You are being a bit of a Phil Burbank

where you're like, don't say that in front of Phil Burbank. I barely met this guy, but I know you shouldn't be talking about flowers in front of him. He's like, yeah. Shine drips. He's so tall.

He's so like, he looks like Beaker from the Muppets. Like he's just a line. Have you seen Young Slow West? No. Oh yeah, it's great. I feel like most people haven't. Richard has.

And I kept bringing it up to people where I'm like, he gives a fairly similar performance in that movie, but no one saw it. It's a really good little movie. It is a good movie. But I think, you know, the discomfort you feel about or the sort of frustration you feel watching this kid just talk to

people in a way that he really should not be, you know, for his own safety or whatever. You know, it's like, I probably do it less now that i'm you know a full adult but like when you're growing up and you have you know a more effeminate voice or whatever like you do learn to code switch a little bit and i find myself if i'm going to buy jewel pods at the the little smoke shop down the street from my apartment hey you know hey can i hey, can I get a whatever? You know, I'm not, that's not actually what it is. But, you know,

and the frustration that Phil feels, he's like, you know, oh, little baby Twinkie, you don't know the ways of the world. This is not, you can't get by this way. And he's right,

but therein is the critique of the whole society that they're living in. Yes. But in the immediate terms, like, Phil is in a strange way toward the end kind of trying to protect him those scenes are very arresting those let's do a back

third of the movie where they're going out together which is what probably gets cody the oscar i mean we're like all in agreement we're talking before the record is that but it's also the the final reversal gets in the usual suspects thing where you're just like a he assuming he kind of owns the last 30 40 minutes of the movie right so you walk out of it really like thinking about him the most and then the ending reframes his character so much kind of had the wool over your eye right that kind of thing of like oh shit this character was like operating but it's funny that like spacey gets so much credit for the walk kevin spacey

will you let me be frank for one minute can i be frank for one minute he shouldn't get any credit for the rock robert zemeckis direct that movie i'm sorry he shouldn't get any credit for the walk robert zemeckis directed that movie it's what i said i'm gonna flip you one comment you've

taken the five you tear off a strip. Tunk. The walk at the end of the suspect. Right, that he has the scene with the reveal where you watch this physical transformation. And I think people overstate the fucking that moment as an actor where it's like, oh, the whole guy, you realize the whole time? It's the fucking hammer blow of that moment, right cody doesn't even have a scene like that no it's really just that like your perception

of him changes and there's no scene where then he does his fucking monologue or you see him have a totally different demeanor everything he was doing in the movie that's what's fascinating about him now becoming this oscar front runner is it's just a performance that like gains power the moment it ends when you then replay the scenes in your mind. Because even having watched the movie three times, I still can't determine where, when he decides to do it. No, he's inscrutable. Because, because there is an unavoidable, you know, a factor involved where, where the Native Americans come and she, Rose gives them the skins that like the hides. Like, he couldn't have planned for that.

No. But it works to his advantage because then he can be like, oh, Phil, I have this. You know? Yeah. It's such an opaque performance in a good way that it's weird that it would win an Oscar. But he's so compelling and he's so odd. And it's sort of look, I like him a lot

as an actor. He, of course, is my beloved Paranorman. I think very underrated voice performance. He is Paranorman. He's the lead, right? Yeah. But he was like, you know, the road was obviously like kind of his breakout thing. He's in Planet of the Apes, right?

He's in Dawn. He's in the second one. Yeah. He's very good in that. He was supposed to play young Wolverine in X-Men Origins Wolverine and then didn't for some reason. Isn't Tro Troy Sivan?

Yes No He's in it but I can't remember He might It might be I think he's Young Wolverine I think it's Troy Sivan Do you think Asa Butterfield is like

Just torn up about all this? Absolutely Well Asa Butterfield was trying to Stretch himself to Cody Yeah He did try to kill Ben Just to prove his point Yes Troy Sivan

You are Absolutely And of course eventually That means he can play Nightcrawler of cody yeah he did try to kill ben jacobo bats just yes troy savann you argue absolutely why and of course eventually that means he can play nightcrawler is what it is right which i thought he was a very good nightcrawler and i call her one of my favorite characters i love nightcrawler and i thought the thing about it is like i had always thought of him more as this kind of a performer sure odd kind of muted and in nightcrawler i remember him being fairly like jovial and sweet and that's that's the balance of nightcrawler which i love is that he's so self-loathing and uncomfortable but then he masks it in defense of humor he's cute in dolomite is my name he's like one of the film crew guys in that but i i will say this like that's a movie where he

showed up and i was like huh that's what he looks like now. Because his his it's just physically he is so striking. He is so odd. And that's like, he's very sweet. He plays just sort of like normal, like positive energy film nerd kid and all of that. But when he shows up in this, you're like, that's a really good way to use the way that guy looks on camera. And as you said, Richard, like, when he is showing so little tact for how to interact with this rowdy group of macho men in the opening of the film, not knowing that he shouldn't brag about the flowers. Like, not only should he not put them out, not only should he not admit that he made them,

he also shouldn't give them any more information beyond that. And he should avoid S's and not say it's for drips. You know, like, you know, like, all this stuff. Don't say drips. Like, obviously, like, we want a world where he can do whatever and be whoever he is. But, like, in these narrow confines, like, come on. We joked about this on our We Bought a Zoo episode 87 years ago. But where you're like, the fact that that movie is called

We Bought a Zoo makes it so hard to defend because it's like the kid showing up at school gets picked on wearing the worst t-shirt and you're just like change! Why'd you wear the t-shirt? Don't wear the shirt! I know you like it, but you have to understand. Like when my friends in high school, we want to play Magic the Gathering, I'd be like

right, yes, but she had lousy play sports. But that's why even watching it second, third'd be like, right, yes, but shut up. Yes, I would actually play sports. But that's why even watching it second and third times, like, I find that the Dunst-Plemons-Cumberbatch performances unfold for me

in different ways on a second viewing. Cody remains totally elusive. And the lack of self-awareness in that opening scene makes it so hard

to believe that he can actually be in control of his surroundings at any point in the film. And gauging when that happens is hard. I think you kind of have to at least allow the possibility that he knows and doesn't

care. And when he has that scene much later with Phil where he says that his father called him strong and Phil's like what and you're like no he is though in his way and Phil is so flummoxed by that because it is this decidedly on cowboy stoicism kind of strength that's how he's defeated right

cannot see this kid as he can't see him coming equal he's developed an alternative form of strength I mean this is why he has weaponized his critical thinking skills into forms of defense. Right. And viewed that way,

the scene in the restaurant is like that kid, like being the strongest person in the room. Right. Like, no, I'm going to say whatever I'm going to say. I'm going to tell you I made these flowers. I don't care.

The only problem is his mother. Like, you know, that's the thing. It's sort of, you know, it splashes onto her, even though he is,

does seem kind of impervious. And weirdly leads to everything happening because it's how George ingratiates himself to her. See, this is the thing with this fucking movie. You can zoom in on any one scene, unpack it for two hours. Like, just examining the dynamics and trying to understand the intentions of people.

The way he uses the comb, you know, how he's like, he'll like drag his thumb across the teeth and it like annoys, and you're like, oh, this is like anxiety. Like, is this like a coping thing for him? And Cody Smith McPhee was like, that's how I want you to think about it. But I think about it as his methodically thinking through step by step what he's thinking he's going to do next. Like, that's what I wanted the comb to be that's cool it's pretty cool that's cool yeah it is it is just kind of funny that he's probably gonna win and he's very good actor he's a good body of work but i don't think has been thought of in that like well clearly this is one of the greatest young actors yeah he's very respected he works constantly he's worked in all sorts of different things but i feel like he was never on those lists even like compared to someone like as a butterfield who just like started as a kid and was fucking like running the table and all these guys

and then was earmarked for Spider-Man and you know yeah yeah it's it's a very very fascinating performance I mean I wonder where he goes after this yeah you know because you're like you want to grab him and just go like

Cody whatever you do don't play a Bond villain. Like, don't. Right. Don't do the easy things that are going to lie to you playing villains. Right. Yeah, that's for sure. Don't be some sort of, you know, mark of a movie's unsettling. Like some, like, you know, prestige horror movie.

Or if you're going to do it, do the Domino Gleason thing where you work a lot. So you can do roles like that, but you do other stuff too. Because, like, I feel like that's what Domino Gleason thing where you work a lot. So you can do roles like that, but you do other stuff too. Because I feel like that's what Domino Gleason was smart about. He was like, yeah, sure, I'll play a villain. I'll play a weirdo. But I'll also play a romantic lead. I'll play Sweetie Pies. I'll play About Time or whatever.

He's in that, right? That's him. My dad. That's a great movie. Johnny Greenwood did the score to this film. It's incredible. Yeah. Watching this movie with captions, my favorite part is just in brackets, uneasy music over and over again. Now, I mean, I'm not wrong that There Will Be Blood was his first score, right?

Like his first movie score. I think you're right. Yeah. And I remember, yes, it was. Apart from that thing. And then he did Encanto and then this, right? We don't talk about Bronco, Henry? We don't talk about Bronco, Henry. We don't talk about Bronco.

He talks about us, though. He talks about us better than Henry. I remember... It is a profound cinema memory for me. Sitting in... I was in the Phoenix Theater. It's where I saw There Will Be Blood. And like, you know,

that opening shot of just the landscape and the music's like, and I was just like, the fuck is going on? Is it broken? Like, just like completely squirming in my seat.

I love his score so much. I love that he'll kind of vanish for a few years because he doesn't need the money. He's not a working composer in that way. Yeah. He's in this band called Radiohead.

I don't know if you guys have heard it. And then he'll just pop back in and do the Spencer and Dog score this year. And you're like, these are both like distinctive and wonderful pieces of music. Was there a third score this year or was it just those two?

Just those two. I mean, you know, the thing he did before that, his most underrated score, obviously the Phantom Threat score is incredible, but the You Were Never Really Here score is so good. Like, you need to tell me that. I know.

I think it was just him emptying metal cans down a staircase, but it's incredible but then there's there's the main piano theme in that movie which then they replay on strings and whatever uh i listen that score all the fucking time it's it's a little bit of a jangly listen if you're just taking a walk there are these incredibly romantic tracks on it in between the ones that sound like metal machine music. Yeah, absolutely. no,

he's probably going to win an Oscar too. Right. I mean, I hate to predict this movie winning all these Oscars. Here's what's funny about it is you're like, she feels kind of unbeatable for director, right? Cody probably has it by default.

And then you're like, she probably wins screenplay, but then in all these other categories, and then you're like, there's a very good chance it wins Best Picture. It would be sort of considered the odds-on favorite at this point. But then the other categories where I'm like,

well, Will Smith probably has it locked up unless Dog is so unstoppable that they give it the Cumberbatch. Ariana DeBose probably has it locked up unless Dog is so unstoppable that they give it to Dunst. Like, I also think it's the number two in a bunch of categories.

Yeah, yeah, right. It's a consensus favorite, so unstoppable that they give it to Dunst. Like, I also think it's the number two in a bunch of categories. Yeah. Yeah, right. It's a consensus favorite, which is funny because it's a very distinct film. Yeah. But it makes sense. Well, I mean, you know, this is such a trite thing to say, but it's like, you know, when I saw Power of the Dog, you know, back last summer, like,

everyone was so excited because it was like, oh, finally something for Kirsten Dunst. It's definitely gonna be her first nomination. She could easily win. We knew dimly that West Side Story was out there and that Anita is a role that is kind of hard to argue with in terms of winning an award, but it's just so silly that they're even being

thrown into comparison. It's just a different fucking thing. Totally different thing. And that's no fault of Dunst or whatever. It's just that I think that they will want to spread the wealth and they want to give something to West Side Story. And that's an easy one. And just as they could maybe go director,

go to somebody else, but I don't think so. I will say this to Dunst's credit. I mean this entirely as a compliment to her. There is a version of this role where other actresses could have played it and had an easier walk to winning an oscar by blowing out some of the breakdown scenes yeah and i think it is to dunce credit and the performance and the film will age better because of it that she doesn't go for the huge fucking oscar clip it's a very, very well-observed, specific,

humanly rendered portrayal of this person rather than the overly dramatic Oscar version of it. I'm realizing the third thing Greenwood worked on was Licorice Pizza, which I believe he has some brief involvement with. He composed one piece of music for it.

No, I knew there was another. I think there's like five minutes. He made all the water beds uh he he had the hose um ben you haven't talked you like dog yeah i mean i could have used more quiet tension you know not enough not enough for me too many loud yeah a little too loud. Yeah, exactly. That's the thing, it was loud. I had to turn the tension button down on my remote. Or up, I guess I wanted. Anyway, what do I want to say about it?

I mean, are we at the end of the episode? We're winding down. Okay, do you want me to refer to my notes? Please. Ben's taking out a notepad okay smoking in bed when he's listening to them

kind of have their first night their first like yeah slumber yeah party yeah that is a like a really cinematic moment of peeping yeah i never know what he's gonna say me neither and and to think he was just gonna let that go unsaid he had it written down on a notepad and if you hadn't asked him i wasn't setting him up i had no idea you had no idea you never know

he didn't have the energy of call on me. I have something to say. I was just kind of realizing, like, Ben's been quiet. Yeah. Peeping of the ears. It's a good point. We rarely think of the peep of the ears. Right. Yeah. No, I mean, it's, you know, historically, I would say, there's probably a lot of that going on.

I mean, the walls are thin. There's not that much going on. A lot of other noise. Well, that older maid is definitely, you know... Genevieve Lemon. Sweetie. Sweetie herself. Right, yeah. Oh, my God.

Okay, and another thing I'm going to... Thomasin McKenzie. Obviously, we haven't even mentioned her, but she's in it, I assume, just to work with Jane Campion. And it was a school assignment. She was sent there by her teacher. Now you have to go be in Jane Campion's movie.

Work study. Oh, rats. Okay, Ben, note number two on the notepad she tells a story that is you know very era appropriate it's like a fable about the coffin with the hair there's something about that

that was so striking to me it's such an aside I don't know how it would necessarily relate it's gray only at the end well no it's gray only at the end that was just a moment that to me dream thing yeah it's just like there's so much dense her films are so dense there's so much going on that even just that little moment i don't even know what it says about the story look the title itself you're watching the whole movie you're like why the fuck is this thing called Power of the Dog? Someone's not looking at the shadows of the mountains.

This is my point. And that's this bonding moment for him. Such a huge. Cumberbatch plays that so well. You see the dog too? Yeah. Where he's like, did someone tell you? Like, yeah. I mean, obviously it's a biblical verse. Deliver my

sword from the soul, my precious life from the power of the dogs. I don't know my Bible. I don't really know. Or my darling in the film. Yeah, right. Which is meant not in like a romantic way. Sure. It's a different...

Yeah. It's from the Psalms. What does it mean, though? I don't know. It means basically it's kind of protection from oppressors and enemies. Phil is deeming this necessary. He has to get,

I mean, sorry enough, Peter has to get rid of Phil to protect his mother. I think there's also stuff about inner demons and closeted things, you know, like, let me kind of destroy the thing in me that's, that's,

you know, hounding me. Let me destroy in others what i believe the psalm is like he's asking god yeah and i do think that the final couple of shots you know from that him reading the psalm to the end like i mean maybe i'm totally off base but i'm like i think that george needs to be a little worried you know i don't know that this kid is done protecting his mother there's this sort of implication, and he mentions this. In the book, this is not implied.

But in the movie, you do kind of have this weird suspicion of like, wait, did he kill his dad too? Sure. Which they were like, we intentionally did not want to speak to that, but we also kind of do let it be a thought you might have. Yeah. Like, what is this?

Yeah, right. Where does this... I don't think that it's like a movie about the birth of a serial killer. I think it's just that this kid maybe has a pretty... a too intense read on protection. You know, slippery slope

once you kill one. You gotta wait the perfect time. Anthrax. Yeah, nailed it. I think Jane just likes a bone boy. From what we've seen with... There's that prominent character on top of the lake

who's got a lot of wishbones. B't lie right never lie bones never lie sorry and then yeah similar with this character he has a prominent human skull yes in his room another thing i love is that he's uh he's such a good draftsman when he's dissecting the rabbit i mean that seems so fascinating because she she's like i brought the carrot. And he's like, leave. And he's not even doing the like, get out! He's just like, you're not going to make it to this. And she's like, I want to give him the carrot. He doesn't want the carrot. There's no interest.

And then when she walks up, there's no sort of like, you got me. There's no sort of like, trying to hide it. Right. There's that weird element of like, why aren't you reacting to me catching you doing this? And then he just very calmly goes back to his drawing of it, which is so well done. Yeah.

That's another thing I love is the early glimpse we see of Phil diarying and how good his penmanship is. And you're like, good little clue, right? Cause you're just like, that feels weird that this guy would journal when he writes in the, um,

let alone that he would, the guest book at the restaurant. Yes. It's like shitty bourbon or whatever. Right. It's like, wait, where did he go to finishing school? Right. Yeah.

Right. Sorry, Ben, you were saying? Plemons fits. Good hats. Nice sort of... Hats. Nice big white hats. His, like, the suits, the air-appropriate suits.

He's looking like a fucking snack. Wow. Plemons is looking really good. Ben wants to chow down. I want to chow down. Call Ben Kiki Dunst. He's hungry. I'm hungry.

I have a funny Plemons snack story that I'll tell you about. Okay. Wow. Wow. Interesting. Drawing rabbit. Drawing, I don't know. Okay.

Oh, and all right. The handkerchief work. What did we think of it? Obviously, we haven't really talked about Phil's stash. His muscle magazines. Which Bronco Henry wrote his name on. Yeah. That old son of a bitch.

Property of Bronco Henry. You know, I used to be the chief critic for Physique World. But they folded. It is such a funny thing to think about. but they folded. It is such a funny thing to think about in a pre- sort of like openly pornographic

industry that there'd be things where it's like, no, I just buy magazines when I admire the human form. It's a nudist journal or whatever. And it's funny that even back then, people were like, no, we know what it's for. There was no hiding it. We like pretend it's not right like right we're not making these

so people can like admire like people's you know the anatomy but you're like what are the articles like in those because obviously everyone who buys them knows what they're buying short stories it was a good you know we had a good time yeah we were proud everyone was buying them there was the arash Chast cartoon. Yeah, of course. She's so funny. They know what they're getting, right? I feel like I'm going crazy looking at this butt! But then I left because everyone

signed this letter about cancel culture and I was like it was just... They pivoted to video, right? That was the other thing. Yeah, so Jim Spanfeller from GeoMedia bought us. And yeah. And then we all had to move to LA

and so we took buyouts. They wouldn't give you... Which coincidentally happened right after the unionization. It was like immediately they're telling you, oh, you moved to LA, no relocation costs

or you lose your job. Ben, sorry. No, it's okay. There was a moment there watching the movie where I thought when the Native American father-son, they have a box. I was like, is this movie about to be them reckoning

with the porn that was found in the woods? Oh, wow. That's what I truly thought was about to happen there for a moment. Yeah. I mean, obviously, that wasn't the case. The found in the woods. Oh, wow. Like, that's what I truly thought was about to happen there for a moment. Yeah. I mean, obviously, that wasn't the case. The power of the mags. Do we think that... But that's vintage porn in the woods.

That's the oldest porn in the woods I've seen. It's like finding your dad's Playboys or whatever, but it's woods porn. My question is, so there's a scene where Phil catches The kid Where he's bathing or whatever And then he chases after him or whatever And then shortly thereafter Phil decides to kind of change his tack

And be like we started on the wrong foot whatever Do you think there's any vague thing That like maybe Phil knows That he found the porn Yes Phil's afraid because he chases him away Like he's afraid In that like He would never admit to being afraid that his

secret will be revealed. But I guess he's just like, maybe I should stop. Better to have him close by. Don't you think, though, if you put porn in the woods, you kind of want someone to find it? Isn't that kind of part of it? He's not hiding it very clearly. Everyone's looking at me.

But it is... But it is far away. You have a bag in your apartment that says Woods Porn and it's full. And it's sitting by the door. Okay, you got me. Isn't the principle of the Woods Porn kind of a take a penny, leave a penny thing?

If you're of the age that you can buy the porn, you give it back to the Woods so that the next generation can have the porn. It's like a lending library. It's one reason he's so dirty like when he's going out to that lake he's like letting off the pressure valve right like so like it's like sort of a special place for him he can't go there that often yeah this is my parents are gone for the day right kind of yeah uh and those bathing scenes are so again again the first time you're watching you're like what should I be

looking for here you know what I mean I mean the first time I was watching I heard about the pecker and I didn't catch it this time I was eagle eyed it like flaps up he scrubs and it does a flap up to the belly button almost yeah you're not wrong that that is what Benedict Cumberbatch's penis does in the film

but it's But it's also It's a flap up. It's also just like right in those scenes where like it's so quiet. Yeah. Like this doesn't seem plot centric.

Like why am I seeing him bathe all of a sudden and be kind of tender? Well, you're sort of like is this indulgent like cinematic poetry sort of shit? Is she just giving me

nature shots? Malachy sort of getting in touch with the earth? Rooney Meyer discovering carpeting for the first time in Song to Song. Have you ever seen that movie? Yeah. She doesn't know what a window or a rug is, apparently, because she's just like, what is... Yeah, anyway. I want to do Malick.

We should do him. We should do him. There was a great movie at Sundance called You Won't Be Alone that people are unfavorably comparing to Malick, which I think is unfair, but I think it's a nice homage to him. I also, I like, anytime a movie is compared to Malick,

I'm like, yeah, I'll see that. Sure, sure. That's why you're going to see Dog with me. Yeah. I saw, I took my dad to see Jackass, and he was just like flummoxed during the Dog trailer. Like every other trailer, he was like,

this looks like the worst thing I've ever seen. He kept on saying that to like four consecutive trailers in a row What's it called? Uncharted The Dave Grohl movie, Uncharted of course, nailed it The Dave Grohl haunted the fucking album recording movie Right, Northman

They didn't play Northman God, I mean it was like two more things like Uncharted That are coming out soon Lost City Lost City, yes. He was very down. I said, I think this looks charming. He went, really? Batman, he had no response to.

But then the dog trailer came up and he was just like, what is this? Dog. Yeah. It's not even really clear what it's about. Dog. Dog. It's just about dog. The poster has a really annoying tagline. Do you have it handy? I'm trying to find it. R.F.R.F.R.F.

So it's not about Dog the Bounty Hunter. It's not about Dog the Bounty Hunter. Here is the poster's tagline. Channing Tatum. And then there's a picture of him sitting by a pickup truck and there's a dog in there too. And the tagline is, a filthy animal unfit for human company

and a dog called Dog Dog Dog Dog. And feels really like dated. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, the movie is, I don't know if you guys know this, but it's a prequel to Alex Garland's film Men, which is coming out next. Oh, good. I don't know.

Anyway, one last grace note on Jane Campionion who we are wrapping up here unless Ben has any more notes what's this okay yeah what did you guys think of the film I liked it yeah very good

okay all right well then should we just stop recording no no no carry on what did y'all think of the significance of the mother giving the rings to Kirsten's character at the funeral? I could not figure that out. I'm assuming it's his.

And this is my guess. Like that she was like, he was such a monster to you that here you go. I think that might be some of it. Some sympathy. Yeah. that here you go. I think that might be some of it. Yeah.

Some sympathy. Yeah. I think she might also maybe see in her the faintest possibility of grandchildren and so she's trying you know like

trying to bridge the gap. That's the weird thing is that Phil I think kind of despite his irascibility was I think the favorite of the parents. You know or the kind of

golden you know. Because he's the smart one. Right. And I think that like now that he's the smart one right and i think that like now that he's gone she's like i have to turn somewhere else and like okay that makes you know yeah right i think i think she was still holding out hope that phil would like continue the lineage at some point yeah you know for sure yeah he's impressive and when the freaking governor comes over with his wife he's like i want to meet this guy yeah i keep hearing about and it's

implied that the the ph it's implied that Phil's mom, that she and Bronco Henry were like roommates in New York City, right? And they had two wacky friends. I mean, Richard? Clink! Five. Ben, anything else? That's it. I just want to say, well, we're done with Campion.

We will be doing China Girl. We haven't recorded that episode yet. So I suppose we'll have one more dip. But we're wrapping up a very fun miniseries. So fun. The next thing she says she's doing is starting a pop-up film school in New Zealand. She's going to have

10 students that she teaches movies to, movie making to, with Netflix's support. I guess they gave her money to do this. I am always for She's basically like I'm full of wisdom, you know? Spending money on anything

like that. Right. To sort of like mitigate the other stuff. But I mean she's For every red notice there must be a film school run

by Jane Campion. It's a carbon neutral. Yeah. She's 67 years old. Like she could absolutely make more movies but she does always sort of seem like someone who's like

Well when something feels good I'll be interested right It's not like she's like I'm about to go work on X But it'll be very interesting to see What she does after this You know the depressing stat That was getting thrown around yesterday At the time we were recording this

The first one we nominated for two directing I don't know why people are shocked by this It's not shocking But it does make you realize The first one was nominated for two directing Oscars. Ever. I don't know why people are shocked by this. There's like five total. It's not shocking, but it does make you realize that so often it was the exact arc she has where it's like, you make this breakthrough and then they go like, fuck, is this going to be the

first female director who builds like a body of work that is held up in the pantheon by, you know, the literati at the time. And what often happens is like sofia coppola everyone turns on marie antoinette and then the next couple are just like i don't know is that like the you know and like we are all in this room people who like sofia coppola's movies but she has never returned to the heights of loss and translation much in the same way that like

with the crossover to the general public and the osc and all that sort of shit, much in the same way that like Piano cast this incredibly large shadow over her. You know? Over Campion's career. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And even Bigelow, in this weird sense, post-Oscar, has struggled to like figure out, I mean, Zero Dark Thirty, you felt like,

okay. Huge. Right. And she got it. But she didn't get nominated for it. She didn't. I know. Which was, you know, I mean, that was a weird year. Yeah. And then Detroit just completely destroyed her. Right. And now she didn't get nominated for it i know which was you know i mean that was a weird year yeah and then detroit just completely destroyed right and now she hasn't made a movie in five years she should make it she should but yes it's that it's that point it's like that was the one that was surprising was bigelow not getting the zero dark 30 nomination and then i would also say uh gerwig not getting the little women nomination was a little absurd yeah uh that was the bigelow thing that the worm had turned a little bit in terms of the pushback against

the torture stuff? Yeah, that movie went from re-favorite to I feel like slightly, and obviously it was a box office success but then it was slightly on the downswing when people were voting. It was a huge hit but it felt like

the controversy around the movie supercharged its box office at the same time as it killed its Oscar chances. Because it did feel like there were two weeks there where you were like, is this going to win picture director? Well, Chastain won the Globe. Is Chastain going to win the actress? Right. And then, yeah, and then it all dissipated. I don't know. That's a movie we've already spent two hours talking about.

Right. I mean, you know, Gerwig missed that nomination, but like it was Bong Joon-ho, Tarantino, Scorsese, Sam Mendes for 1917. And Todd Phillips for a movie called Retired Bit. Don't know that one. That's the one I was hoping Gerwig would get. But obviously that movie made a billion dollars. Yeah.

You know, obviously there was a reason he got... Bradley Cooper's Retired Bit? The one he produced? Yeah. Anyway, but no, it's very exciting, obviously. She got another nomination. I agree with you, Griffin. She could probably do whatever she wanted right now

I just have no idea She's probably waiting for Something that intrigues Yeah curious to see what it is Do we want to do rankings here Or do we want to do them in the China Girl episode No I think we should do them here because this is dropping After the China Girl episode

You know what it's not China Girl is actually dropping Six what? It's not. China Girl is actually dropping six days, five days later. Save it. Okay. It'll be on the Patreon. That's the only thing. Will people be mad that we paywall our rankings? I've got a ranking. I'm going to say this.

This is the hardest ranking I've ever done. Interesting. Now, can I just say something? People be mad. I'm really glad you said that. This is another hardest ranking I've ever done Interesting Now can I just say something? People be mad I'm really glad you said that This is another thing my dad said to me the other day We went to see Jackass He was like do you feel like everyone's just like really mad these days Every time I pick up the phone I think someone's angry

Pete's got the pulse of the nation right now He's pretty tapped in I thought it was a pretty striking insight from my father Do you guys not consider this movie to have box office? I was about to ask about that. Unreported? It's unreported obviously. Even for the theatricals. Yeah. Because it wasn't

like I have seen. Yeah but Netflix is four walls. They just don't report box office. Right and like with Red Notice and shit they'll like sort of talk about it or I guess it's playing in enough theaters that those theaters individually report stuff and they get a rough estimate. But something like this, there's no fucking reportable number. The thing is, we can do the box office game for the week it came out, but we did just do it because it's the same weekend as Benedetta.

Well, then never mind. Yeah, then never mind. What were the top ten movies on Netflix the week it came out? Red Notice. Can you look that up? I don't even trust those. No, I don't either. You don't think they're being on the level?

No, I don't. That's why I can tell that Power of the Dog was actually a crossover hit. You can tell when something permeates. When you're surprised by the people who have watched it and the speed at which they watched it, how quickly it caught on. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you

the top 10 movies on Netflix right now, it's a bunch of bullshit. I don't even want to get into this. Remember when Miss Sloan was on there for like three months? Well, she took on the whole industry by herself. These things are obviously impossible to tabulate, but I remember reading some article that was like,

there's a chance that Secret Life of Pets 2 is the most watched movie in Netflix history. Like, Netflix won't admit it. But like, come on. Well, it's in a way that YouTube, like, children's programming is. Videos have a billion views. It's just like exactly in the middle

and something about the fact that movie kind of underperformed at the box office means that everyone waited for Netflix. According to Flix Patrol. Okay. Which I'm not going to investigate how. That's a spin off of Physique World. On December 3rd, 2021, Power of the Dog was the number one movie on Netflix the day of its release. Richard.

I don't even know if it's called Physique World. 20. 20. Number two was a film you just mentioned red notice red notice number three was what looks like a French comedy about a millionaire trying to help his spoiled children be better people

it's a film it's a picture it's a film what's it called spoiled brats okay there's also something called single all the way Film? It's a picture? It's a film. What's it called? Spoiled Brats. Okay. There's also something called Single All the Way. Oh, that is gay. With Michael Urie.

Christmas movie. Oh, that one where it's like he brings his friend home for the holidays and all his family. To be his fake boyfriend. So it's sort of like Happiest Season but with a boy? No, they know that he's gay, but he doesn't want people to know that he's single and gay so he brings his platonic gay friend home as his boyfriend. But then that is

they figure out pretty soon and then they set him up with a local guy, play Luke McFarlane. Right. And then he's like perfect on paper but then the friend is there and then of course... Maybe stop talking about a film you wrote and directed. I'm just saying. Look, I'm here to plug things. I mean, I didn't come out here for free. And also this is a great example of like the blank check

in effect, which is like you make the Trolls movies. Those are your big popular films that you get to go make your small personal. Was I not clear that Single All The Way is all Trolls? Number five on the Netflix chart is of course everyone's favorite two movie stars in a great

Christmas classic. It's Brooke Shields and Carrie Elwes. What's the film called? A Castle Christmas? is of course everyone's favorite two movie stars in a great christmas classic it's brooke shields and carrie ellis what's the film called a castle christmas christ what's it called a castle for christmas a castle for christmas come home to where your dreams begin i have no idea what this movie's about let's see to escape a scandal a best-selling author goes to scotland where she falls in love with a castle and faces off with a grumpy Duke who owns it. Uh-oh. You know in cartoons... You're not charmed? You know like in cartoons when there's a bad smell and the flower goes...

The recorder's doing that right now. It's just like... I like that it's turned into rubber. And people say Netflix is full of garbage. If you were indexing this episode on a website and you had to put tags or whatever, it would be like

Jane Campion, Power of the Dog, Annie Proulx, A Castle for Christmas, single all the way. All mentioned in one episode. You know what? I realize this is worldwide charts. That's how that spoiled rats movie got in there. But even still,

look, that is a positive of Netflix is it does feel like people are watching international shit. That subtitles kind of are no longer a hindrance. That is true. But I will say in America, it went Power of the Dog, Single All the Way was three,

Castle for Christmas was four, Halle Berry's Bruised was five, her boxing film. An example of a movie that probably has been underreported in how many people watched it. I would not be surprised if that was like one of the 10 most watched things in the last year on Netflix. I agree. Number two

was the Eddie Murphy Martin Lawrence comedy Life. Wow. These weird like fucking TBS movies that just pop. Okay. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. We should do rankings. Richard, do you want to talk about the third Trolls movie,

which is in theaters November 17th, 2023? Or should we wait for plugs? I mean, I don't think I'm legally allowed to do that. It is. It's about the coronavirus, right? I mean, like, explicitly. Well, I mean, I guess you could say that. I mean, so it's actually, it's kind of an allegory.

Me and David Sirota put it together. So it's not explicitly about it, but, like, if you if you like get it you get it but like critics are gonna hate it because they hate they you know they hate being told the truth right exactly it's just a little too blunt for them right yeah my ranking griffin well actually what's yours do you have one you do yours first well I think the most Basically the top four for me are very close I don't know maybe you don't agree There are four movies I adore Okay And I have them ranked like this

Number one Bright Star Number two The Piano Number three In The Cut Number four Power Of The Dog And if you caught me on another day I might put them in a different order Then I would have Sweetie, which I love. Then Angel at my table.

And then I think I go, holy smoke, Portrait of a Lady. I'm going to put two friends last. Last friends. Yeah. That's my nine. Okay. And I feel confident about five to nine. But I don't about one to four.

One to four is sort of tough for me. I'm like, how do I not have the piano number one? But I love Bright Star so deeply. I mean, she's obviously one of your favorite filmmakers. I do love her. You've seen all these movies more times than I have. A lot of them are fresh watches for me. My list might be somewhat different than yours. I'm going to go bottom up

because I find it easier to organize it that way. Two Friends is last. No disrespect, but also they're kind of stepping on our territory uh yeah so actually maybe they should watch their back uh then i got portrait of a lady which is the fire enough for you it's the only other one i'm not like pretty gripped by right um because even i guess you kind of have to, by default, put Holy Smoke next. But I'm pretty fascinated by that movie, and it stuck with me a weird amount, even though I think it's a mess.

Okay? Then I would go... See, this is where I may be different from you. Whatever. It's fine. I go Sweetie. Uh-huh. Then I go Bright Star.

Angel at My Table really surprised me. I love it. Then I go Bright Star. Angel at My Table really surprised me. I love it. Then I go Piano. Then I go Power of the Dog. Power of the Dog. Arf, arf, arf. Oh, oh, I forgot In the Cut. You did.

In the Cut goes in between Angel at My Table and Sweetie. Okay. I'm sort of losing the thread here, but I guess that's fifth. Two Friends. Ninth. Portrait of a Lady. Eighth. Holy Smoke. Yeah. Then I. Ninth. Portrait of a Lady. Eighth. Holy Smoke.

Yep. Then I go Sweetie in the Cut, Angel at My Table, Bright Star Piano, whatever. I think you already just jumped Bright Star a couple spots. I think I did. I don't know. Listeners, figure it out. Top of the Lake remains my favorite thing she's done, but I still haven't watched China Girl. No. We're going to watch that soon.

Okay. You guys don't rank Billboard Dad or Winning London or Passport to Paris? We try to be very specific about TV doesn't fit into main rankings, but it's tough with her. Okay, fair enough. Because Billboard Dad didn't play festivals.

Well, it was out of competition. It was a market screening at Cannes, but yeah. It was in the basement. It was in the Marche. Yeah. Along with four Bruce Willis movies. Richard, do you have anything to plug? No, just the VF stuff.

Obviously, I have a review of Power of the Dog written in a pre-festival haze many months ago if people want to read it. I actually think very differently about the movie now than I did then. But no, that's it. Just read BF. Listen to Little Old Men podcast. Remind me what your number one of the year was. Oh, Worst Person in the World. Good pick. It's a good movie and it got

an Oscar nomination I didn't expect it to. That was a very pleasant surprise. I thought that maybe Renata might squeak in there somehow, but it was just too crowded. I'd love to see it, but... Yeah. Guys, I'm like 85% done with it. And I'll send it to both of you guys.

I've almost successfully compiled the entire Worst Person in the World soundtrack as a playlist. Ooh, I want it. When I saw that. I've been waiting to finish it to tell you. Oh, that's incredible. I'm almost done.

Please, yeah. Because when I saw that... Because it took a lot of work because there's a lot of fucking songs in that movie. I was so obsessed with, you know, the Waters of March cover

at the end. I listened to it on a loop. And I... When I was at Cannes, you had to get a... If you were an American because they didn't accept your vaccination,

like, QR code, you had to get a test every two days. And for whatever reason, maybe it's just France, the people administering the test were like these beautiful, like French 26 year old guys. And so I showed up, that song blaring in my headphones, weeping. And I'm like, here's my info. Can I get my COVID test, please? And he looked at me like I was crazy. So I'm eager to have that.

I have almost all the songs now, and I'm trying to get the order correct. What was your number one of the year, Griffin? I just saw that. Yeah. And so it's still settling for me for a little bit. As of this moment, there's still some other things I need to see,

a couple other big ones. My number one is still French Dispatch, which I am on, and I love it. I mean, I love that that's a couple other big ones. My number one is still French Dispatch, which I am on. I love it. I mean, I love the Dutch number one. Yeah. But Worst Person in the World is maybe the closest threat. French Dispatch completely flaming out at the Oscars was

interesting, but I think anyone at Telluride could have told you that was going to happen because it went over so badly there. The other thing that's wild is that people were like, I can't believe it didn't even get cinematography or costume or art direction, all this stuff.

And it's like, fucking, Grand Budapest is his only movie that has ever performed in the craft categories. It is bizarre for how much he is thought of

as like Mr. Visual, craft, bespoke, what have you, that like, his only other nominations are writing and fucking animated for any of his films.

He's never gotten an acting nomination. Not even Hexen. Budapest is the only one that got other categories. It's bizarre. Because it feels like, yes, he should be getting those fucking Nightmare Alley kind of gods.

I think it should have gotten at least four craft nominations. Yes, it's absurd um we have a plug a special guest plug that's right from a friend of the podcast uh uh John Hodgman

uh who left a voicemail that I would like to be back on the show what are we doing I know idiots fucking idiots blowing this fucking celeb um okay so I'm gonna play this and then I'll send you the track so you can drop it in. Yeah, okay. Hey, Griffin. Hey, David.

It's John Hodgman here. Come in. Remember the old days, how we know each other and everything? Hey, I'm sorry to use the blank check voicemail account for this, but Griffin hasn't been returning my texts. And I sent a guy over to his apartment to hand deliver a letter, but he escaped by shimmying down a pipe in an alley. So I don't know why he's avoiding me. But Griffin, I love the fact that you're Orko in He-Mans of the Universe. I've enjoyed seeing you promoting that on your social media. I'm a little concerned that you've spent no time promoting

your role as Lance in Dicktown, the animated show on FX and Hulu that I created with David Reese, another blank check guest. Lance, your character, that lovable juvenile delinquent Lance. You remember we made the costume for you in the big plastic Lance head. You agreed to go to at least 35 cons in 2021. I mean, you didn't agree to it. We signed it. You didn't. But I mean, it was clear the intention. Hey, don't worry about it. It's all water under that bridge that we burned. Because guess what? March 3rd, Thursday at 10 p.m. is the season premiere of Dicktown Season 2. And also, Griffin, you're in it. Lance returns. Remember, you recorded it. So no big deal. You can make up for lost time by giving us your podcast for four weeks. We'll just do a hybrid, you know, blank dick, blank dick checktown or something like that. Okay. Or maybe you could just mention it and play this voicemail maybe.

Hey, everybody. It's me, John Hodgman. Check out Dicktown Season 2 on FX on Thursday nights at 10 p.m. starting March 3rd. Hulu the next day. And check out Season 1 at bit.ly slash D-I-C-K-T-O-W-N. Always be plugging. That's Dicktown. Thanks, everybody.

Come in. Thank you, Hodgman, for sending that in. I have a slightly different memory of events, but I will say as sort of a good faith negotiation, I am willing to play the message I just played on air. So not going to give him the podcast for the month. He can have it. No, come on.

All right, fine. We don't have much else going on. Not going to do the conventions, but I will agree to do what I just did. Ticktown's so good. It's a great show. It truly is a great show, and I say that season one,

I was only in one episode. In animation, you feel a lot more divorced from the process, and it was recorded a lot. A while in advance, it came out during the pandemic, and it was one of the few pandemic shows that really captured me and distracted me and amused me. And it's really good.

And, uh, I have more to do in this season, including as John spoiled riding a motorcycle. Um, but I think it's really good. Yeah. And if you like,

uh, the Hodgman Reese episodes, then you should like these episodes of a cartoon that both of them are on that. We're, I, I, I'm in actually,

you're not in it. Uh, I'm not in it, but I do love this show. Funny way to end our Campion miniseries. Perfect. Look, sometimes a giant network owned by a giant company announces that they're premiering your show in four weeks

with no advance notice, and you have to scramble and text a bunch of your friends and ask if you can beef it into their podcast. He's welcome to come on the Physique World podcast because it's been pretty dormant. He will.

Huge following. Yeah. Hodgman's been getting yoked too. Hodgman's like, cut these fucking things. It's messed up. We'll figure it out. We'll get him back on.

Richard, you're the best. Yep. Thanks for having me. It was fun. A good movie this time. Arf, arf. Yeah. Richard, 10 Lawson. You didn't... The Big Ten. Oh, I know. Isn. Thanks for having me. It was fun. A good movie this time. Arf, arf. Yeah. Richard 10 Lawson.

You didn't. The Big Ten. Oh, I know. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. You and Bo Derek. I've skipped all her episodes. I'm sorry.

Richard Bo Derek Lawson. It is wild that we've had Bo Derek on the podcast that many times. Exactly. Always talking about Dudley Moore movies. Always. Of course. Always. It's weird that we also keep on picking that many directors

who have worked with Dudley Moore anyway you know who she's married to right Bo Derek they got married last year or two years ago Aidan Shaw right John Corbett

really she's only five years older than him remember when she was on that show Hawaii with Jacinda Barrett from Real World London? Wild. Wild stuff. David,

tour is a business. We've got to announce our next mini-series. Fuck. Jesus. Let's not do it. Let's just surprise people. This is the thing with final episodes where you forget like, oh fuck. The next mini miniseries, some of you have guessed it.

Many. It was originally planned to be earlier. The order was flipped. We were always going to do these two directors at the beginning of the year. Right, but Campion was going to be the second one.

And then his movie got pushed, and Campion was popping so much that we were like, oh, shit, we'll just reverse them. The director's name is Sam Raimi. Sam Raimi. He has a new film. The director's name is Sam Raimi. Sam Raimi. He has a new film coming out. The films of Sam Raimi. We've been waiting for him to make a new movie and he has. Doctor Strange

and the Multiverse of Badness, a passion project. We get to talk Cumberbatch again four months from now. We're going to do Sam Raimi, one of the OGs. One of the, on our list from day one. I don't know what's going to be good. We don't need to preview Sam Raimi, do we? He made the Spider-Man movie.

He has not made another movie in the entire time we've been doing this podcast. We've been waiting for him to come back. The Oz the Great and Powerful episode is just going to be three hours of silence, right? That's right. Respectful. Sort of just a slight sound of wind in the distance. A cough, but not from you guys,

just from outside. It might break the witch's record of the least we talk about a movie in an episode on a movie. And then an hour and 45 minutes in, Bronco Henry starts talking. Absolutely. I should mention I recently bought Oz on 3D Blu-ray. Damn

good, I guess. Pot committed. But yes, excited about Sam, Raimi, Got Good, Guess, and obviously big movies coming up from that. Next week, the Blankie Awards. Oh, my favorite episode. No other palate cleanser. No other Ben's Choice.

That'll be your buffer. We're jumping straight into Raimi because as it is, our Doctor Strange episode's gonna be a couple weeks late from when the movie comes out. So we wanna strike while the iron is lukewarm. But that's what's going on here and also March Madness has just started.

We will have messages about that in other ways, but if you're not already paying attention, you can go to our website where there's a new poll up every day. It's off of Twitter, but Marie will be posting those links. Marie Barty will be posting those links every day on our Twitter to our website for the voting, which will not be posting those links. Marie Barty will be posting those links every day on our

Twitter to our website for the voting, which will not be done on Twitter because Twitter is a hellscape. What? Something's up with Twitter? No good. Very bad. Don't do it. I just signed up for Twitter Blue, though. Oh, David. Oh, no. David's

profile picture has just become an octagon. What if you make an NFT of the fucking you watching the interstellar trailer yeah i'm to be clear not going to do that but just to be yeah yeah i'm sorry we can't joke just to be clear i think nfts are stupid yeah we hate them yeah they're bad bad dumb um they are they. Yeah, we don't like them. Jesus. It's starting to feel... Did anyone else feel like at the end of the episode, the guys were saying they didn't like them too much? Do they secretly love them? No, we don't. All right. Any other orders of business?

I don't think so. March Madness. Dicktown. Premiered three days ago. March Madness started six days ago. Blankie Awards are in a week. Sam Raimi in two weeks. 14 days. And then, yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

Remember to take a walk and drink water. Touchgrass. Touchgrass, if you will. A permanent reminder. And I want to remind you all to rate, review, subscribe. Thank you all for listening. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media. AJ McKeon and Alex Barron for our editing.

Pat Reynolds, Joe Bowen for our work. Pat Reynolds for our editing. Joe Bowen, Joe Bowen, Joe Bowen, Pat Reynolds for our art work. JJ Birch, Nick Laureano for our research. Liam Montgomery and the great American novel for our theme song. Go to that nifty new blank check website, uh, for links to our merch,

Reddit, and listen to episodes. You can vote on March Madness, all that sort of good stuff. Tune next week for the Blankie Awards with our friend Joe Reed. And as always, to Bronco Henry.