Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Shining with Timothy Simons

Episode Date: October 30, 2022

Just in time for Halloween, we’re checking into the Overlook Hotel - a haunted place not unlike the Beachwood, Ohio, Homewood Suites that Griffin and guest Timothy Simons stayed in while they were filming DRAFT DAY! Is THE SHINING about Native American genocide, or is it about how Stanley Kubrick thought ghosts were kinda nice? Is Shelley Duvall the MVP of this movie? Would Ben absolutely thrive as the hotel’s caretaker - taking inspiration from the stocked kitchen pantry to whip up some delicious dishes? Why does the spectre of Tim Robinson continue to haunt our Kubrick series? Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com or at teepublic.com/stores/blank-check

Oh, Pod and no cast makes Jack a dull boy. Does he say that out loud? No. Yeah, exactly. No, it's typed. It's not even a line. It's typed. It's visually depicted on screen.

It is, in fact, never said out loud. This movie has, like, a lot of famous quotes. Yeah. You know, here's Johnny. That's really another quote. Podcast backwards is... Oh. Scrap.

Oh, no way. Oh. Scrap. Oh, no way. Yeah. Scrap. All right. T-S-A-C-D-O-P. Sacked. Sacked up. Sacked up.

Sacked up. Sacked up. You can talk. Please talk. Please talk. I have a friend who you can say a sentence to. And he can just do that. And he can... He'll do that. He'll do like that mental math for a second and then say it backwards and then

he'll you know I don't do a sentence he can like not just a word sentence wow friend sounds weird uh well we're not like close okay he's more of like a friend of a friend I really I can't speak to what he's like I mean I feel like maybe i overstated it yeah you just saw this guy at a circus yeah he's my friend you guys ever heard of uh by the way it was a guy it was a chicken it's both words backwards by pecking hello danny come and podcast with us there you go right there ever and ever with us forever that's a classic that's a classic this movie here's the thing i'll say about this movie a lot of iconic elements elements. Yeah, right. Sure, sure. It is pretty wild re-watching this and just going like, oh, pretty much every single thing in this film is iconic. There are a few films that I feel like

are this thoroughly seeped into the culture. The fucking rugs are iconic. That's the thing. Even if you've never seen this movie before, this is absolutely a movie that you absorb by cultural osmosis, where it's like the the looks okay the movements the art direction the costumes even things like i i did not see this movie until i think i was like sort of much older but had had soaked so much of it in through osmosis like you're talking about even like red rum yes you would think would be a massive part of this movie but it's really just something that comes up and is dealt with in it's it's just something that sort of gives you a jolt and that's that yeah and that's it i mean it's sort of yeah hinted at for but right it's not like one of the million things i love about this like right it's not like at the end and they have to like put red rum

right into a computer and that unlocks a p or whatever like right it's not like at the end then they have to like put red rum right into a computer and that unlocks a p or whatever like it like it's not like this stuff doesn't come together in some way that's like important no nor need it but even the imagery of like the grady twins is another thing where you're like how can this one movie contain all of these elements and you watch it you're like because anything that happens in this movie that is on screen for more than three seconds somehow became indelible but can i say something i agree with everything you're saying and yet it's also a movie with kind of like 45 minutes of slow setup that's not particularly spooky and is a lot of conversation yeah and like then that's fine i love it all but you know what makes it spooky though if you just put on

dramatic strings sure there's that. I know. It's also one of these movies where somehow the pacing is in and of itself scary. Where even when you're in the 45 minutes, it's like he edited this film with like the weirdest rhythms of like too much air in between lines. God, I love that. Where the whole thing from moment one is just like, why won't this movie speed up? There is that thing like when you, if you had never seen The Shining, if you're a person who's never seen it but lives in this world, you would think, oh, like, well, what I know about that movie is it is the scariest thing I'm ever going to see. Yes.

And when it comes down to it, only one person gets killed. The entire film. The entire movie. One person. I mean, other people in the story die. Yeah, and right, there have been deaths. And there have been deaths. But there's only one murder.

And then Jack is murdered by the weather. Yeah, sure. So I guess, I mean, I don't know. The ultimate serial killer in many ways. But yeah sure. So I guess, I mean, I don't know, put the weather on trial. Right, yeah. But yeah, this movie is two years after Halloween, which is a film that really

kind of rewrites the rules of like, oh, you can kill everybody in a movie. Halloween only has like four murders, though. You know, people just were, you know, people were satisfied

with a murder or two back then. Sure. They didn't need, you know, 20 deaths a second but flash forward i mean i am i am as much a part of the problem because when i went to go see the meg i was like yeah not enough kills like there are not nearly that's all you got how many kills you go like that's all you got that's all you got you got the meg and they're only going to be like

five or six people this saw the Meg on a plane this is five years after Jaws Jaws is one of those movies also where it like feels like there are more deaths than there are it's really just the lady the couple at the beginning

the kid right Robert Shaw spoiler alert spoiler alert is that it? is that everyone who died in Jaws? maybe

it's maybe four people are we forgetting someone? but same what you're saying like Halloween only four people but I think especially at that time it was just, four felt like a lot.

And those movies have this pervasive sense of like, fuck, anyone's at risk. I rate movies by how many deaths. Of course. So two out of ten for The Shining. You give it two bloody nines? Right. Two out of ten. It is funny what you're saying, because I feel like this movie was hitchcock saying i want to

i want to try my hand at horror and my goal is kubrick jesus god it's got so alive he's still alive around now right he'd be really old i think you're asking now no he's dead now he is dead now he wouldn't be a hundred and twenty two three years old now no he died in 1980 right before this movie came out because he knew it was going to bum him out. He knew it was going to bum him out.

He knew it was going to be like, fuck, he beat me. No, no, no. Okay, now. No, Kubrick's whole thing was like, I need a hit. I'm going to go to a proven genre.

Let me try a horror movie and the challenge to myself is can I make the single scariest movie ever made? But it's coming off of the 70s, which was such a, like, boon time for horror

and sort of rewrote the rules of the genre and you're like, there's all the sort of, like, build that happens in the 70s, which were such a boon time for horror and sort of rewrote the rules of the genre. And you're like, there's all the sort of build that happens in the 70s prior to this movie. And then there's sort of like the run after this movie where you have like... Well, the slashers. You have Jaws, you have

Michael Myers, you have Leatherface before this. And then you have Freddy and Jason after this. You know, Chucky. It's wild that this movie sort of stands like on its own in this midpoint and is so different than everything that comes before now and i would love to talk to alex about this actually thinking about his taxonomy of horror that he did on our halloween episode right about where the shining falls in that because the shining is like alex's favorite or well Alex Perry to be clear

He's a director He's been on our show Alex Perry I've listened to the Halloween episode I didn't want to like fan out and say how much I enjoyed it Like I loved it Because like obviously The Exorcist Yeah Which is what like

Seven years before the 73 right Ah yeah 73 That's a similar thing where it's like Prestige horror with major actors The six, seven years before the 73, right? Right. Ah, yeah, 73. Okay. That's a similar thing where it's like prestige horror with major actors based on a bestseller. Right. That's going to be a little different in how you sell it versus like a Halloween or, you know, like a Texas Chainsaw, right? Like, I assume that's what The Shining's going for in every way of, like, this is based on a book. Yes, it's terrifying.

Don't bring your kids. But, like, you're not going to see this with a bunch of teenagers who are throwing popcorn. Like, you know, this is, like, this is a serious adult movie. Here's, like, the biggest leading man. Biggest leading man. One of the most famous directors of all time. At this point. Yeah. Without a doubt. Like, he's only got two movies left and king has already sort of proved himself

to be the guy at least the guy of of the decade at this point like yeah king is kind of the guy of the decade and he was and he was chill uh at the time about this movie like he only gripes later as it goes on right you know like yeah yeah, yeah. Yeah, where's King, actually? Oh, you know, there's a lot to talk about. God, I'm getting... Wait, can I ask this question? Because I didn't... I sort of intentionally didn't look into a lot of the history of it.

But was this calculated in that way? I guess related to what we're talking about. This movie almost seems like it exists out of time. If you had asked me if this came out before Halloween or after, I would have said it came out 15 years before Halloween. It seems like it does not exist. It doesn't seem like part of a trend or anything like that. It doesn't.

It seems like completely separate from that. There's a trend, there's an escalation, there's sort of an evolution of the genre that feels like it is not interrupted by this movie, but this movie exists out of line with it. Yes. And as impactful as this movie is, it doesn't affect any other movies afterwards.

Yes. And that's what I'm wondering. Was this calculated by anyone? Like exactly what you're saying of it's the biggest movie star with one of the best directors. Everybody's already established. Yeah. So was this calculated to be this sort of prestige horror? I think so.

A little bit. Here's what I'll say, though. This is the second Stephen King film adaptation. There had only been one before this, which is Carrie. And this was only his third published book. Third or fourth. Like, very early in his career. It's Carrie Salem's lot, Shining.

Right, because then the book's only, like, three years old. It's 77. um right because then the book's only like three years old it's like 77 um but so like after the shining comes the real 80s wave of like lots of king stuff yeah so that would be the trend you could point to not so much a stanley kubrick thing more of just like a yeah you know this established along with carrie like let's just whatever that fucking guy wrote that's let's put it on right that's maybe the point where he becomes like a franchise in and of himself. But at this point, maybe he's like Dennis LeHan

or something where you're like, oh, this guy gets big adaptations by big directors. You know? Yeah, it's Cujo, Dead Zone, Christine, Children of the Corn,

Firestarters, Stand By Me, The Running Man are the 80s adaptations. And then you also have, and then the ones he actually worked on, which are like Creepshow

Right Cat's Eye Maximum Overdrive Pet Sematary It's a lot of stuff and then the Salem's Lot miniseries as well

like so much stuff I wonder if the thing that we're talking about existing sort of it doesn't really affect any of the movies after I wonder if the way that this affected

movies that came after was you know like it always feels like this is a phenomenon of the moment of like just professional point missers like everybody in the world seems to be so good at missing the fucking point of everything yeah and maybe and it's like one of the reasons that i don't like being alive at any moment oh it's terrible it's awful it's one of the worst things but then i'm like oh maybe it's okay to be alive because they missed

the fucking point back then right and the point that they missed was oh everybody just needs axe murders and so like everybody's like oh well we're dumb and we missed the point so let's just have axe murder movies rather than thinking why don't you just make the scariest fucking movie of all time it just happens to have one guy get axed right but it's hard to make the scariest it's hard this is my dad called this this like i remember when i was a kid i was like what's the scariest movie you've ever seen he's like the shining like yeah i don't think you ever wavered from that it is scary from the very first this is what i'm saying what the helicopter shot you don't think that, you think that looks nice? Pretty.

It does. It's pretty, but it's really the soundtrack that does it. But even it's just. And the. There's something, yeah,

it's just every camera move in this is scary. Yeah, there's something like the camera almost makes you feel like you're going to fall off the road. Like it's very intentional,

I think. 100%. Like because you really need. You think this movie's intentional? You think some of the visuals in this film were made with intention? Yeah, I think that there's a lot of thought going into it.

I just imagine, because it's like Brett Ratner, asleep at the monitor, sort of like... No, I would say it was kind of intense, too. You think it's kind of intense? The set was a little intense. I mean, not to joke,

like the helicopter shot, I'm obsessed with and I actually watch it all the time. But like, and it's just in your head for the rest of the movie where you're like, that's the road you'd have to go down to get out of here.

Like, it's so long. You're not getting out of here. Right, right. It's upsetting. It looks hard in the summer. Can I say something? Yes, please introduce our show. This is a podcast called

Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear. Sometimes they bounce, baby.

Couldn't really commit to Nicholson. No, even though we've done him so many times on our podcast. He's one of the top ones. Probably going to do some ad reads. I like it when you say, when you put podcast into a quote i like it when you say sometimes they bounce baby when i like i don't like it when you when you mess around with the baby part oh i hear what you're saying you know what i mean yeah because i feel like they're right yeah right because sometimes i'll say like and sometimes they yeah i can't

even think of an example sometimes they they get dragged to hell, baby. Right. You don't like that. I don't like that. Look, I'm here as a listener and as a fan. But also I'm here to... To note us. I have some thoughts.

You have some thoughts. We're dying to hear them. Look, it's a miniseries on the films of Stanley Kubrick. It's called Pods Widecast. And today, a long overdue guest. Wait, what is it called? Pods Widecast. We're sorry. Pods... Okay, got it. Pods Widecast. And today, a long overdue guest. Wait, what is it called? Pods Widecast.

We're sorry. Pods Widecast. Okay, got it. Pods Widecast. Okay. You don't need to say okay. Why? You can say that's stupid. That's fine.

I think it's good. I think it's fine. It's what we settled on. I think it's good. Yeah. Our guest today, a dear friend, a gentleman, a scholar, truly a long overdue guest. I feel like in the early days of this pod, I remember very early on when we were like, could we get guests? I was like, I should ask my buddy Tim.

And you were like, what's this fucking thing you have? And then some years later, you started listening to the show. And now I think you feel like, oh, I like harangued my way onto the show. You've spent the last couple of months being like, guys, I don't want you feeling like you have to have me. Am I going to ruin the episode? I have a couple house. I wrote down like I took notes. You know, I want to be I wanted to be a good guest.

Our guest today, by the way, from the. Tim Simons, but also, most importantly, I don't know if you know this banner you put this together the voice of butcher boy member of shanks gang in Ralph breaks the into oh fuck yeah hold on let me shake your hands nice to meet you Wow look up look up what's your boy

just okay big big scary guy with a beard So nice to meet you. I don't think I knew that. Look up Butcher Boy. Just remind yourself. Big, big, big scary guy with a beard. Fucking handlebar mustache, right? Handlebar mustache, but he still has value even though he crashes in the race. Absolutely. You should watch that movie again. I only saw it the one time.

Yeah, it's good. I don't think it was funny, yeah. I wrote down some housekeeping notes that had nothing to do with The Shining. And only because you brought it up now. Do it. I think I have a lot, I think like a lot of people,

I thought that this show was, and I love you, Griffin. I love you too. I thought that this show was a weekly podcast where every week you talked about the movie Blank Check. Many people thought that. And every week it was just that movie blank check many people thought that and and every week it was just that and that's the bit we just never i'll say this too in your defense

i believe the first time i ever asked you to do the show was in the first year when the premise literally was we only talk about phantom menace every week so i definitely pitched it to you as i have a podcast with my friend and we talk about the Phantom Menace every week. I remember a phone call with you where you called me to say, I'm going to be in New York next week. And I went, oh, great. You should come on my podcast. He went, I might actually be busy. And I was like, this phone call started with you pitching to me that you're in town and would like to see me. And the second I told you Phantom Menace every week, you were like, schedule's going to be tight.

Schedule's going to be tight. But here's the thing. I love you. I love you. I love you too. But the idea of going on something that was blank check every single week. It's like a true, I ain't reading all that situation. Like, I'm happy for you or I'm sorry that happened. But I'm not reading all that.

And it was, so I was listening to the LA Film Podcast, which is like a podcast where they only talk about movies that were made or filmed in LA or about Los Angeles. And they talk about how it affected the city, whatever. And they mentioned what your show was about. And I was like, holy shit, that sounds great. I had no idea. I always thought it was this.

So that's when I started listening. Sure. And yes. And now I am mournful that it has taken this long to be into it well we all get there and in due time thank you for coming on the show thank you this show is very stupid we're here to talk about have you seen the movie blank check no i never have it's not good you know it was written by the man who wrote save the cat right yeah it's like his actual yes yes proof is in the pudding.

Here you go. And it was. We did an episode on it like years ago just to complete the joke. It's cool. A woman kind of is like attracted to a boy in it.

Yeah, that's true. There is some like boy-woman flirting in it. Yeah, it's a former MTV DJ, VJ Duffy. Duffy. Remember Duffy? Yes, yes.

Duffy is in it? Dude, it's like 1994, movie like tone loke duffy yeah michael lerner fresh off an oscar yeah lerner just being like sure i'll give you 10 minutes but duffy plays this like one of those walls of cathode ray tvs where it's like 12 of them you know where you're like this is cool more cool. More TVs. Duffy like full on kisses a boy, like a child. Yeah, what is he, 10? If that.

That was the second volume of the book. Volume 1, Save the Cat. Volume 2, French the Kid. They don't French. They almost do. Lips are a little parted. But blank check, yeah. Bad movie. The other housekeeping notes that I have.

Oh, yeah, hit me. As I just want to point out that the coffee spill from the draft day trailer is not in the final cut. No. Much remark done. Well, look. We've mentioned. Maybe. Here's the thing.

Tim, you and I have been friends now for almost a decade. A crazy thing to consider. I'm assuming you met on the set of Drafted. Yes, we did. We got to know each other. Sure. Staying at the Homewood Suites outside of Cleveland, Ohio. Yes, Beachwood, Ohio.

We were in Beachwood, Ohio. Yes. And we went to Cedar Point together and rode roller coasters. The largest collection of roller coasters in America. Did you get all the good ones in? That's a real spot. There was the one that got shut down that I think I kind of didn't want to do anyway. We both didn't want to do it.

We both didn't want to do it. And we really accepted the out given to us by mechanical failure. It was like one of those kind of like ones where it's like, it's all wood. No, it's the one where it's like it goes all the way up, locks you there in that position, and then crazy drop. And then spins you down. But it's not as long of a thing. It's just really the one big drop. And we both were like

in line for this for like over an hour and we're like, we're going to feel good when we've done this. We'll feel good an hour from now. And when they were like, it's broken

and it'll be back up in 20 minutes, we were like, we're good. Yeah, we're good. We're all good. But we went on pretty much everything else. I got a horrible sunburn. But the opening scene,

that movie all takes place on a day uh draft day famously it is draft day and we had already shot a bunch of other scenes we've been working on movie for like three or four weeks right yeah and then uh we went to cedar point i showed up on set and i was bright red and i had to like try to paint me pale on top of i always think like i mean like they've got, like, movie magic. They can make me, you know... No, it looks really bad. I look...

That one... It's that one scene. But all this to say, the main big stars in the cast, and we had a very large cast of characters, main big stars in the cast were all at the nice hotel

in downtown Cleveland, Ohio. Yes. And everyone else they put in... The Homewood Suites. Right. In Beachwood, Ohio, a town that is pretty much a series of car dealerships. Yes.

And the two of us, Wade Williams. Yeah, Wade Williams was there. Yes. There were a couple other guys. Wade Williams, I know that guy. Some prison break. Prison break guy, yeah.

Yes, he's awesome. Great guy. There were a couple other guys like Wade Williams. I know that guy. Some prison break. Prison break guy. Yeah. Oh, God. He's awesome. Great guy. Yeah. There were a couple other guys like us who were like in the whole movie, but aren't like the lead characters. So whereas like someone like Pat Healy would show up and they'd put him in the shitty Beachwood Hotel, but he'd only be there for two days.

Right. But we were there for like six to eight weeks. Yes. In the shitty Beachwood Hotel. Yeah. And Tim and I immediately became fast friends. Wade Williams, at one point he was like, hey, come down, I'll cook you steaks. And he, like, cooked me pan-seared Homewood Sweets steaks.

It was, like, the most Wade Williams shit that's ever happened. Like, in his room? Like, in his hotel room? He just, like, had a frying pan? Yeah, they've got, like, little kitchenettes there, you know what I mean? Was it good? It was great. I mean, the man knows how to do it.

That guy rules. He's like, I don't want to just like guys and everything's like that. I mean, he didn't. There wasn't like a green on the side, you know what I mean? Oh, sure. It's just like your steak. You're coming down here for steak. That movie, as we talked about, is the most bananas loaded cast.

That's the thing. Beyond like the fact that like Chadwick Boseman is in it right just like a zillion character actors where you're like but like fucking like Puff Daddy is in it and Terry Crews

exactly fucking yeah that's right you know is it I always forget is it Chai or Chi McBride I forget I believe it's Chi McBride

Chi McBride and like yeah fucking Sam Superman's in it Tom Welling yes yes

yeah he's right he's Sam Elliott's in it right Sam Elliott's yes yes uh he's right he's uh uh sam elliott's in it right sam elliott we were just saying our cat we forgot yeah we completely her parts largely cut out but yeah but like she's in it right um the other little housekeeping note that i want to sure throw out there is that i was present i was present i witnessed okay okay The Ellen Burstyn thing Oh you saw Try silence

I saw This happen So it's That's how it went down It was just An absolute fatality In front of you It is

It was like The only words Scorpion like freezing someone And then like punching them Into a thousand pieces Or whatever Yeah like It was withering

Yeah It hurt It sounds withering Yeah It was i mean like i don't know that i feel like you've done a good job in describing this i think so but i can only describe how it felt inside i can't describe what it felt like to everyone else in a loaded hair and makeup trailer yes like every seat filled it was the kind of thing where you keep staring straight forward and at this point i know and love griffin and we've gone to cedar point right at this point we like we pretty much spent all of

our downtime together yes and we were in the same van every morning every night on set we were like chilling in the corner with each other like because we were both in this position where it was like this is weird this movie we're on yes you were a much bigger deal than me you've done several seasons of people no no i think this was after the i mean like the first season had maybe just come out i think it was you had just done season two but maybe season one was the only one that oh wait no maybe you're right yes no i think you're right yeah yeah yeah but still you haven't done many films no no we're with crazy big stars and we're in there with like dennis leary right you know like. And we're in there with like Dennis Leary. Right.

You know, like, what are we, you know, there was that one time where Dennis Leary was like, everybody's on their phone too much. And I was like, fuck, awesome. All right, we're talking. He was like, oh, I didn't know. I think. It literally turned into like a, like a. I was about to say, I would be like, tell me, Larry.

Come on. Yes. I don't think he was understanding. He was like, oh, God, now I got to talk. Yeah. God. What I could give, just go to a coffee place with Leary. Oh.

And like, you know, someone's like, you want like the maple coffee? And he's just like, all right. Here we go. Let me tell you something. I'm turning on the flamethrower. It was truly a like, you know, on set, people used to talk to each other. Everyone put their phones down and they were like, go off. But we, yes, we spent a tremendous amount of time together.

We saw movies together. We go see comedy shows together and stuff. Oh, that's right. I saw you perform. You saw me perform. We saw Nick. Nick Thune. We saw Nick Thune.

Yeah. But then at one point I saw you perform and you were great. You did the, I still think about you flipping through the names of like, it's the most famous person movie star you got. And it's like, no. Oh, the Space Jam. The Space Jam. Oh, that's great.

Classic Griffin. So all this is to say is that we were friends and I pretended like I didn't know you after she said that. It was, I did not, I didn't want to after she said that. It was... I did not... I didn't want to call any attention to it. I would say pretty much everyone else in the cast I would have considered a co-worker at the time.

And I was like, you and I were firmly friends. We were firmly friends and I'd let you down. She fucking bought it. And then Griffin looked over to you and was like, do you want to do my Star Wars podcast? And you were like, I'm so really busy. I have children. No, but when you come to New York, I'd go to LA.

We'd still see each other and stuff. But a bit that Tim has kept running for years is when the trailer for Draft Day came out, my coffee spill, which was supposed to be my character introduction, was given a prominent position in the trailer. Yes. And a lot of my friends were like, holy shit, you're in the trailer. You have a prominent position in the trailer yes and a lot of my friends were like holy shit you're in the trailer you have like a real part in this movie and tim took up it took it upon himself to correct every single person on twitter and let them know that

the coffee drop is not in the film not in the film and especially make the final cut of the film especially when the film comes out and underperforms at the box office and people make jokes about me being in the movie and their only frame of reference is the trailer they saw. Tim will always respond, I just need you to know the coffee drop is not in the final. He's kept this up for nine years. Nine years. And especially what's great about it is that there is a draft every year. So every year somebody brings up the movie draft day and I get to be like, just so you know.

Just so you know. Beyond people bringing up the movie Draft Day, I actually think Draft Day has gone from sort of like mid-sized hit to kind of like, oh, like a dad movie people sort of enjoy on cable to like genuine quasi-cult classic. Weirdly. I mean, Tim, have you had the same experience that I have where every year when the draft day residual checks come in, I am dumbfounded? Yeah. Because we were both paid like scale for that movie. Pretty much everyone was paid scale. 90% of the budget went to Costner and 5% went to the other six big name actors. Were you there when Langella rapped? When Frank Langella rapped?

Rapped? Frank Langella famously choked. No, no, no. I'm sorry. W-R-A-P rapped when Frank Langella rapped? He rapped? Frank Langella famously choked. No, no, no. I'm sorry. W-R-A-P rapped. Oh, yes. Yes. I talk about this all the time. Okay. That's less interesting. He took the sunglasses off. Well, I think you've told this story. Langella wears sunglasses

the entire film. He says he took that from some team owner he saw in interviews who was wearing sunglasses in the interview. He went, that's an interesting character choice. And he wore the sunglasses on offset, in between takes, lunch, trailer, whatever, 100% of the time. And then when they wrapped

and they went, that's a picture wrap on Frank Langella, he very dramatically, finger on each arm, took the sunglasses off as if it was like, as if you were going to be like, wait, you were Frank Langella the whole time? You're not very mr fuck yeah plucked them off his face and revealed himself he plucked off his face and

then he went like this he like oh he was like yes and then took a bow yes yes what did leary do when he quit when he rapped he went you know the fucking thing about rapping? Black coffee. Okay? Black coffee. Okay? I just want black coffee. 12 ounces. Black coffee.

What a weird fucking experience. Yeah. Sorry. No, it's fine. Everything about that movie. This is a podcast about the films of Ivan Reitman. Yeah. Hey, you know who's the guy

that loves to wear sunglasses indoors? Jack Nicholson. Jack Nicholson. He does do that. Although not in The Shining, but in general. Listen up, let me tell you a story. doors. Jack Nicholson. He does do that, although not in The so, so funny. I absolutely will be going again, says CBC Radio. Join the six wives of Henry VIII at the Royal Alexandra Theatre.

Now on stage. Book at Mirvish.com. What's that noise? Oh, that? That's a herd of cattle destroying our IT room. At CableMonkey, we won't let just any animals loose on your IT infrastructure. CableMonkey offers high-quality installation, maintenance, and repair services focused on your commercial IT infrastructure. Structured cabling, camera systems, access control, whatever you need,

CableMonkey has you covered. Higher quality, less expense, and no headaches. CableMonkey. Get your free quote today at CableMonkey.org. I have never looked up to, I want this story to be true so badly that I don't look it up. But apparently he has been asked not to go back to the Staples Center because he spilled homemade chili on the court. And it like delayed the game because they had to clean up the homemade chili that he brought in i believe i believe that is an onion story that took on in life

really it can't be real no i mean like there are pictures of him with like a tupperware and some chili on the floor and he's going like oh well you know but i like, I don't want it to not be true. I feel like in recent years when he has been captured at the Staples Center, he's sitting higher up in the bleachers. You never seen courtside anymore. I think he's generally withdrawn from like public figure. Yeah. Nicholson life or whatever. I don't want to. I want to.

My buddy, Matt. This is his story. But he at one point was, he was in his drive, he was driving in Los Angeles and he like, you know, the cars at a stoplight were a little bit off kilter. So he's driving, his driver's window is sort of right next to the passenger back window of like a town car. Sure. So it's a little bit off kilter. The windows rolled down and he looks over and it's Jack Nicholson and he gives him the little chin up nod. He just goes, he just sees him and goes like that. And Jack Nicholson, they make eye contact, gives him the little, the little nod. Jack Nicholson looks forward and then the window goes up.

a little nod jack nicholson looks forward and then the window goes up he didn't even reflexively give him the little nod back and then put the window up he just turned and then the window went up god bless him wow cool guy cool guy done so many nicholsons i was gonna look at the filmography to try and but weird ones now this is four. Now, there's four James Hill Brooks movies. Yeah, so I was just going to write that. Mars Attacks Batman. You see? There's a lot of them, right? But you're right.

Like, we've never done, like, Chinatown or Cuckoo's Nest or, you know, Easy Rider or, like, famous Nichols movies. Witches of Eastwick. Witches of Eastwick. I feel like that. But, yeah, like, Terms of Endearment, obviously. But, wait, Witches of Eastwick is a big one, though. Yeah. Broadcast News, Batman, Mars Attacks. quick uh i feel like that but yeah like terms of endearment right obviously but wait riches of easter is a big one though yeah broadcast news batman mars attacks yeah that's it i guess but it's a lot you know terms of endearment yeah yeah i mean gotta give as good as it gets somebody's

gotta give right oh oh oh yeah don't forget that no not at all uh but it is this run i mean we we haven't sort of talked about like your initial golden age run of nicholson which i would say is like uh i'd say easy rider to shining is the first sort of like because then i'd argue the james l brooks period is like a transitional stage of endearment is three years after this yes and that obviously he's like you know kind of flabby and right like the then that was like against type at that point it was like oh look at nich you know kind of flabby and that was like against type at that point it was like oh look at Nicholson kind of like letting loose here Reds is 81

Reds is 81 but that's him also being like I'll be a supporting actor in your movie I'll be a character actor I'll let Mike clout in a different way Postman always rings twice is the next year yeah and maybe that's a good cut off that feels like a transitional point you know before then it's all basically you know,

transformative starring roles. Easy Rider, Five Easy Pieces, Carnal Knowledge, King of Marvin Gardens, Last Detail, Chinatown, Tommy, that's a small role. Sure. Which we found out was meant to be Christopher Lee. Yeah. The Passenger, The Fortune, one of his rare bombs,

Cuckoo's Nest, Missouri Breaks, things are getting weird, Last Tycoon, things aren't going so great, Going South, the fortune, one of his rare bombs, cuckoo's nest, Missouri breaks. Things are getting weird. Last tycoon. Things aren't going so great. Going south, which he directs. Right. And doesn't do great. So the shining is actually a bit of a bounce back. Sure.

It's been like a few years since like cuckoo's nest, which was his last like massive hit. I forget who it is, but someone who worked with him had a story about like, uh, asking him how they thought the movie was going to do someone who was in a movie with Nicholson in the 80s or 90s, a supporting actor. And he said, like, I don't make movies. I make classics. And it is one of those things where even when you count the bombs or like the weirdo picks in that run. You're just like, by 1980, how many iconic Hall of Fame Mount Rushmore movies with

equally iconic Mount Rushmore Hall of Fame performances does this guy have under his belt? And even if it was only like a Burt Reynolds run

where then it's like, okay, and then it's diminishing returns with a few rare upticks. It's like, no, pretty much until he retires.

Yeah. The highest tier of Nichol, pretty much until he retires. Yeah. The highest tier of Nicholson movies is just kind of unreal. Are you a Jack fan, Tim? Huh? You're a Jack fan.

How do you feel about Jack? And one of the things, I have a very damaging take about this movie that I don't want to bring up until later because I came here

to do nothing but praise this movie and these performances but one of the things that i love about his performance in this movie there is a lot of the stuff it's almost like he invented the cliche of so many of the things that he does there's a moment where he's it's the second time that he's going back to the bar and i think he's just gotten in a fight with Wendy. And he's doing a lot of physical, big physical movements. Is that when he does the sort of, I got 220s and 210? He's got that whole monologue he delivers. Actually, it's in the walk.

It's in the walk down the hallway. Where he's just silently waving his arms. And in the hands of like a lesser actor that just becomes like a weird cliche of playing a crazy guy but he has a way of of making that real of having that come from a real place and feel grounded even though it i don't know like i i think this performance of his is incredible yeah and uh and there are so many opportunities for it to have been wrong or in the hands of a lesser actor it's stephen king's big complaint one of his many complaints is like the minute you see that guy you're like that guy's

gonna kill his wife and kids like i actually like you're king's like it's supposed to be a descent into madness this guy seems scary i I also know a lot of people who share that opinion and, like, big horror fans where they're like, that's the fundamental issue with that movie is that the first hour

doesn't work because you know he's crazy and you're waiting for it to happen. I actually, weirdly, I would have agreed with that until I rewatched it this time. And one of the first things

that I made a note of was that in that scene where he's talking to the guys, I mean, like, yeah, it's like a little weird when he's talking to the guys, I mean, like, yeah, it's like a little weird when he's like, that's intriguing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just remember coming out of that scene thinking, wow, they really make him sort of kind of affable and likable. Like, you understand why... It's because it's Nicholson.

It's also fascinating how well they're able to dampen his charisma in a way where he's compelling to watch. He's not being like used to the animalistic. Right. Yeah. Like it's not like Easy Rider where you're like, I love this guy. Right.

Right. Like it does feel like he's submitting to the Kubrick house style. And it's as much as I understand that complaint against his casting, it's like, but it's so greatly outweighed by the stuff he does in the last half of the movie is stuff no one else could pull off. Yeah. And especially no other like movie star of that stature. And your point is interesting, Tim, because it's like. In a way, this kind of is the scent of a woman, right, where it's like this is the performance where the guy sort of codifies all of his tricks and ticks yes into uh you know such definitive performance that's all kind of

like bombast and whatever yes but pacino has a hard time coming back out after that right right it feels like even though pacino made fun movies in the 90s right he it does it's like he uncorked something and he can't it's more rare he knows he can do that now and he's just kind of like I can just fucking do that all of a sudden he's like trying to push a rope and it's like that doesn't work the whole thing in heat where he's like I play the guy like he's on coke

and I'm like you did that well I know I'm not saying it's a bad performance but it kind of feels like every movie he walked into he's like I feel like this guy's on coke what? I can't play 100% normal again like he had to justify until like Insomnia that's what's so interesting

about Insomnia he's like I feel like this guy's on anti-coke or whatever should I just do the awful take right away in that second scene so he talks, like where the big party is happening. He's like,

I want to know who's buying my drinks. Right. Because the first bar scene, it's empty. The second bar scene, the second room is full. His performance in that second scene is about one half of a percent away

from an I think you should leave Tim Robinson performance. It it is it is madness and and what i what i what i don't why the reason i almost don't want to say that is because i don't want it almost affects the rest of the movie because you then start seeing oh no this is a tim robinson performance well i'll say this i it's, it's the enunciation, right? Like, which obviously is partly Kubrick being like, and take 87.

And like, Nichols is probably just like, I don't know. Should I hit this try differently? Like what the fuck does this guy want? Right. But like, obviously that's what Robinson is so good at.

And I think you should leave or whatever, like where he just says a sentence where you're like, I never would imagine someone saying this sentence. Yes. Benji's like, he's kind of doing it. He's like, yeah, I would like a drink. Yeah, right. I would like.

But that's why it's fascinating that he gives great subdued performances after this. Because you do feel like if he successfully uncorks this in this movie, the temptation to just like, I can do that. You guys will let me get away with you let me go this big sure right yeah yeah like right right why don't i just lean on that forever now right i can do that i'm watching it and you're right you're i mean like he's got this weird like crazy guy swagger he's kind of playing with his jacket yeah in this kind of like you know ways like that if you look at all the other, you can kind of see it a little bit. And I and I don't I almost don't I don't want to uncork this because I don't want this to come across as me denigrating their performance because I think it's amazing.

And and this is going to tie into my general thought about this entire thing is that low-key MVP of this movie is Shelley Duvall. Agreed. Oh, 100%. And one of the things that I love about that

first scene, like the why I disagree with the take of oh, he's he's not the right it's a descent into madness. Those two scenes back and forth

of Shelley Duvall at the house with Danny and him being interviewed for the job, you not only understand why he's the guy who's in a position to take a job like this. So he's not like a guy that's going to take over the world. Right. You also understand why they would have hired him because he's charming and affable enough and you also understand like he has like the domestic violence undertones of this movie that really stuck out and i want to be gentle in the way that i talk about this because obviously yes it's loaded with the history of this film and everything yes it is you understand the character

wise you understand why the wife is with him like you understand why he when he says i'm sorry i won't do this again why she believes him and you also see that underlying thing that violence in him and you see her giving like these rehearsed things of like you know and and he did a great job and it's been five months and you're like oh no the whole speech she gives about like you know you know it's a thing you do a hundred times you you know you grab your kid's arm or whatever it's and you almost believe it and then you're almost just like completely so sad about you know but like that's the thing like king obviously writes this novel it's about himself it's about like a frustrated academic who's an alcoholic who's you know can't get ahead and he slowly goes mad and so then he sees this

movie and he's like well i'm not this fucking guy you know like that's so much obvious of the undertone of king's objection to this movie the other part of it too is that like king has said like my father was like a man with rage issues and it could be prone to violence. And like when I became a father, I was worried about that within myself. And like the being a new parent thing where suddenly you find yourself

having so much animosity at this child because they won't go to bed or finish their dinner or whatever. Like the level of rage you uncorked there. They got afraid of that. Scared seeing the shadows

of his father in that. And this book is written from the perspective of a man who is like come to terms with that developed a healthy relationship to his children has come to terms with his own like history and all of that sort of shit his father and everything but i think it scares him to see this movie where it's like oh this guy's like a bomb waiting to go off yeah right but then yeah that's the thing it's like i don't watch this movie and think like, oh, he's like a psycho who's gonna go crazy.

Sure. But you do think like, oh, this is a guy who's bottled so much up. Yes. And in that interview scene, he's a little charming. Yeah.

And he answers the questions the right way. Yeah. And also, I love about that interview scene, and again, I do think this is what Kubrick gets out of doing 100 takes

of boring dialogue. Like, suddenly everything sounds stilted in this really cool way like you get the sense that they're just like can we get this over with we need to leave this hotel like you know who fucking cares like right they don't really care if this guy's gonna chop up his family you know like they the way they talk about it where they're like it was an unfortunate incident you know like he almost chuckles the guy what's his name? He chuckles. He's like, what the hell? He's like, my predecessor.

He killed his family. It's just like, you just think like, everyone is just trying to ignore the thing, the elephant in the room. And that's how you feel about Shelley Duvall. And that's just how I feel about all of it. When everything, it should feel natural that everything goes to shit.

Another thing about the show, but also it's ghosts. Yes, yes, ghosts. Which is Kubrick's take. He's like, it's ghosts. Yeah. Because that's why he, I don't talk about it, but he gets so resistant to the King thing

of like, well, this is a metaphor. And he's like, that's too depressing. Ghosts. It's about what if ghosts drove you crazy? Which is interesting. There's this fascinating thing that jj our researcher pulled up okay it's like early conversations between king and kubrick and i mean we could dig into this more but it was like off of barry lyndon was a flop and he's made

several movies now that were like so huge and unwieldy and whatever that he was like i need like kind of a commercial genre play right and i the challenge of can i make the scariest movie of all time like that's how to make myself excited about this he reads through a bunch of horror books until he finds the shining and that's the one there's this great anecdote from like his secretary at the time where she said she kept on delivering stacks of different the books hitting the wall right she'd deliver stacks like just get me

all the bestseller horror novels and every 10 minutes she'd hear a book hit the wall right like he'd like read it and be like

this is trash and would throw it against the wall into the garbage and then one day she didn't hear it happen for like two hours

she was like fuck that's a good sign she opens the door I mean those books are page turners his nose is buried deep in the shining and she's like I think the search is over but he reaches out can you do you know the quote i'm talking about i don't but i can start looking at the dossier uh kubrick reaches

out to king and says he like wants to do this and he's like there's something kind of sweet and like a poetic uh optimistic about the the ending that the that thats are real that there's like a thing Yes right yeah yeah yeah right And he's like what do you mean he's like well it's just kind of sweet Like to consider that there is like an afterlife Alright let me get you the quote Because it is really good right like King obviously Calls up Stanley Kubrick

And King is still he's famous But he's like Jesus Christ Stanley Kubrick's on the phone Like you know He's so flattered and King The, Stanley Kubrick's on the phone. Like, you know, he's so flattered. And King, the first thing Kubrick says is, the whole idea of a ghost is optimistic, isn't it? And King is like, huh, what are you talking about? And he says, well, the concept of a ghost presupposes life after death.

That's a cheerful concept, isn't it? And King is silent and then says, but what hell and stanley kubrick is just quiet and then says i don't believe in hell and uh king's like okay like but like it's just that like that like kubrick is not whatever like engaging with whatever selectively yeah like whatever personal like demons are fueling king is like it King that's like, ghosts? No, those are the things that haunt you, that reflect the traumas of your life. And he's like, no, I don't think about that.

Isn't that nice that we keep on picking around? Isn't it nice that you can be like, eternally giving a blowjob wearing a bear costume? That's nice. That's nice. You watch this movie, and you know, my takeaway is not really like, Stanley Kubrick thinks ghosts are nice. No, it's...

So I don't really know. It's a funny anecdote. This movie's... Yeah, it's so bizarre. It's one of those things where like even watching this, I felt the like, am I like kind of dreading

doing this episode just because it is one of the most like chewed upon movies ever, you know? And people who go so far in different directions with it

in terms of like what they want it to reflect or what they choose to focus on and everything. I started. So the things that I did to prepare were I watched the movie a few times. I started watching the Stephen King Shining miniseries. Yeah, I watched it before. I bought what is apparently like clearly a bootleg copy off of right it's weirdly hard to find these days and in i it's not great elliot gould's in it really playing he plays uh the guy the boss guy right right and he's like really aggressive of

like i cannot believe that that the board has decided to entrust this beautiful historic hotel to an alcoholic. I mean, it's like the most, um, it's very, it's not great. And they use the original hotel that like King stayed in that he based it

on. Not this like magnificent, scary fucking lodge that Kubrick finds. And Ben, you know, the whole thing is like that mini series with Stephen King being like, okay, time to roll up my sleeves and show you folks the real shining.

It's like, you've seen, it's like six hours long though. Like it's, it's, it's the whole book. Yeah. And it was on ABC.

So like, how scary can it be? And it's Andrew McCarthy, which feels like him over correcting this. Like, I want you to not believe this guy could go crazy at the beginning of the film. And you're like, but is Andrew McCarthy ever going to be able to get to Jack Heights by the end?

Wait, is it McCarthy or I thought it was Stephen Webber? No, it's Stephen Webber. Stephen Webber. Oh, it's Stephen Webber. Jesus Christ. Rebecca De Mornay plays... Rebecca De Mornay is Wendy. Weird.

Melvin Van Peebles plays Dick Halloran. Right. And let's see, Pat Hingle apparently is in it. Commissioner Gordon himself. Tony is actually like, there is like a floating teenage Tony who talks to him. You like see him. You see him.

And also Tony is a, is like, it seems to be a little bit more of a, of a figure that like Rebecca Dorn, the morning will ask hey uh how is the job interview going and the kid will be like it's going good he's gonna get the job oh he's like a sort of seer she's like a seer and the mom knows to ask and it's like oh that's great you know um uh but i also started watching room 237. Sure. Documentary people know it probably about shining obsessives and conspiracy theories and all that.

It's a movie about how many different ways this movie can be read. But it's also just about that obsessive mindset in general. It's trying to be read. It's like proto-QAnon. I guess so. I don't know. A little. It has.

How like you can dig so deep that you're like in an entirely new hole if I could just vindicate myself quickly Andrew McCarthy was in the American remake of The Kingdom which I think was also

for ABC The Lars Von Trier Kingdom and also Stephen King I just confused those two projects go on so as I was watching it

I absolutely agree with what you're saying. Like, it's I do feel like it's going to be hard to do this episode because this is one of like this is well, well, well worn area. Yeah. But as I was watching it, I was like, this seems maybe a lot more. This seems a lot less complicated than people are making it. If you just look at it from like a domestic violence, but also at one. And like, maybe this is me oversimplifying it,

but he, the first time he's at the bar, he says, I'd sell my soul for a glass of beer. Yeah. And then a bartender appears and gives him a drink. It's like, I don't know,

maybe it's the fucking devil. Like, I don't like, it seems so direct that it's like the whole reason. I think that people obsess over this movie and Kubrick movies in general. And i like stanley kubrick is that every single scene looks so magnificent yeah in its blocking and staging that you're like this is a this has to mean something right which like it's not like stanley kubrick's just like yeah and i'll point the camera over there it looks nice like obviously he's thinking a lot about the like when i think of room 237 and the way the band

you know the bands around the bathtub the way everything's perfectly like set it's so indelible you know when you think about the girls yeah standing there and then the cuts to them being you know it's all beautiful yeah but then you like watch room 237 they're like i think it's about the moon landing why well the kid wears like a moon sweater and you're like uh-huh anything else no like i think it's about like it's on an indian burial ground oh is that because someone says that and then there's like a fucking there's like a label barrel right on a can of food in the back and then i'm like so what do you mean they're like well it's like you know they angered the indian you know burial ground and i'm like yeah with the premise of 80 horror movies fine right i I don't mind that. That's fine.

And I don't really care what is happening here. I'll say this too. Nope just came out. A movie that all three of us like, Ben, you haven't seen it yet? Not yet. But there's like such... You were supposed to say nope. Yeah, you should have said nope. To try to come to Christ. Have you learned nothing?

Have you ever listened to this show? Ben, you should have said nope! You should have said nope! To that question! Fuck! The industry around, like, the second nope is released, every single outlet has their, all the Easter eggs decoding

nope. Sure, the way the modern internet responds to these things. You watch the movie, you're immediately like, I guess I gotta read some articles on this. You texted us, I feel like and we have a our blank dough thread as well we're just sort of like what are the good note pieces you guys have read what are the things and and and i think you get to a point where people like like and and i think successfully but like peel a shamalan at times certainly ari aster a degree. You have filmmakers now who are sort of consciously constructing movies like this, where they're like,

I know the expectations going into my movies are that people are going to look to do that work to crack the puzzle. So why not put that many weird sort of puzzle pieces in there? Whereas I think Kubrick was not intentionally leaving a trail of breadcrumbs for people to maybe he thinks that's interesting the indian i just i'm just sort of like that's fine that's a totally fine read yeah it just doesn't strike me as something where i'm like throw everything else

away right from minute one i'm only thinking about indian burial grounds or you know like where i'm like you know it's fun to read into movies. I love that. I do too. It's great. It also doesn't mean that it's true. Right. And it becomes this weird, right, this weird sort of thing of like, no, we have to investigate the secret message the director was leaving for us. And I feel like most of the time when directors get into like Lynch

or Kubrick or like who are people obsessed over the most, they're kind of like what do you think? And you're like blah blah blah and they're like, yeah, I like that. You know, like, or like, yeah, you should think what you think. Like, it's rare that, like, Lynch would just be like, wrong. Mulholland Drive's not about that. Think again!

The secret message part of it is the interesting part to me because people watch this movie, not everyone, but so many people watch this film going like, what's the thing I'm supposed to decode here? Yeah. Right?

And it's not just like, what is the secret meaning of this film? But they treat it almost like it's like a fucking Dan Brown, you know, like, what is the puzzle left by the Knights Templar to uncover a conspiracy? Obviously, it's compelling to fold this conspiracy theory moon landing shit into it and be like, he was, you know, he's telling us something. Like, yeah, it's compelling to fold this conspiracy theory moon landing shit into it and be like he was you know he's telling us something like yeah it's a confession you know like that's cute um but i've never really gone beyond that beyond the fact that he wears a fucking moon right that's the

main thing to your point what you're saying tim it's like i started watching the movie feeling daunted by like how the fuck are we gonna talk about this and then i just watched the movie i'm like oh i can just talk about the movie I just watched. Talk about the movie because it's fucking great. Right. We could just not feel the burden of fucking everything this movie really represents. Right. The other thing apparently is that the moon is 237,000 miles away from the Earth.

Which it actually is. And it's like 238. Yeah. I mean, by the end of this, we're all going to be like, oh, it's about the moon. Oh, it's about the moon. I mean, by the end of this, we're all going to be like, it's about the movie. It's about the Mooney movie. Anyway. I want to throw this out and it's related to what we're talking about.

And I do, I recognize the irony that I have come on a podcast, which is like a, you know, a talky medium. One of the talkiest. I'm fucking so sick of talking. Yes.

As a performer, I guess I'm sick of talking. And I am sick of talking as, as, as, as a performer, I guess I'm sick of talking and I am sick of the, like the, the, like the take industrial, this is very stupid. The take industrial complex surrounding television and movies where like the thing that always comes to mind is the last episode of Mad Men aired. I watched it. I it i enjoyed it sure and then the next day and even later that night you have 1500 articles where every person involved in the production tells you exactly what it means right yeah it became more and the oral history being published three hours after the thing is released yes yes and so there is that part of me where I, as much as I have both read and

enjoyed some of those and also participated in some of those as a performer, when I, one thing that was really exciting about Nope. And one of the reasons that I wrote to you guys to be like, what do you guys have on this? Because I didn't want really want somebody to tell me what it was. I just wanted to read people being excited about it. I wanted to, like, that was one of the things I loved about Nope. And so it was like one of those times where I, a rare time where I really wanted to hear. I really wanted to hear more about what people thought about it. But that's like, I mean, the thing that's so exciting about Pele is that he's making movies at such a high level that are like super commercial mainstream in the sense that like you put his name on a poster and it's going to open big and everyone's going to see it and engage with it.

And part of the experience is that people know, I'm going to see this movie and I'm going to need to talk about it afterwards. Yeah. And if people want to do the fucking work on his movies that there's that kind of like challenge to them where it's just the best thing when i had this thing nope and i had this i us opening weekend where it's like people spill out of the theater really slowly and then they hang around outside they're like so what do you think that was and it just feels like we so rarely get that rather than the sort of pre-digested take. Yeah.

Here's how you're supposed to process this thing. Yeah. And this movie is such a, dare I say it, Rosetta Stone for engaging with movies in that kind of way. But such an extreme example of it getting, like, gamified. And I think Room 237 where people were sort of saying like, oh, are you guys going to do a Patreon episode on that?

It's like, no, just watch that movie. We don't need to do an episode on that movie. And I think the bigger point... We thought about it, but right. It's sort of like, what are we going to say? What are we going to say?

Right. But the bigger point of that movie, I think, is almost like about the weird relationship so many different people will have to this movie in so many different ways rather than trying to solve that people do with like we know 2001 obviously is one of those like

wait what's the meaning of that what was happening at the end there obviously eyes wide shut has become this thing where people are like he's telling us about like jeffrey epstein and like hollywood sex abuse and kubrick so dark the kind of man every film is like it's this very like This weird Kubrick, so dark the con of man, every film is like, it's this very like QAnon way of approaching things where it's like the confession is right in front of our eyes and we need to decode it. And everything has to be some like buried message left to be discovered. Buried secret. Buried secret. recently where like a sort of an ex-family member has been texting long story short it turns out that this this person is kind of gotten some q anon oh sure and is texting someone still in the family some some threads or some check this video out or whatever. Right. They texted, they were like, you know, uh, you know,

here's all this crazy stuff that happens in Hollywood. And I mean, you know, Tim has mentioned that Hollywood's crazy before. And I was like, yeah, yeah. It's a little crazy.

Yeah. But why didn't you think of the 15,000 other fucking reasons? It could be an insane place to work before we harvest children for adrenochrome or whatever just say just admit it just admit like you harvest children for adrenochrome whatever that is you're like so much easier that's what you make your film stock out of probably something like that that's what you're doing it's hard to find adrenochrome wait a second the clues were there the whole time they They were. And honestly, like, Dr. Sleep is kind of about that.

Like, Dr. Sleep, the sequel to, which I feel like is actually a better movie than maybe people are willing to give it credit for. I think the movie, re-watching this made me even appreciate Dr. Sleep more. And the director's cut is

an improvement if you haven't seen it. We are doing that on Patreon. Oh, you are? Okay, great. I actually haven't seen the director's cut, but I will have to go check it out because I really liked it. But that is like, guys,

that's just part of that movie. I'm trying to remember now. They're trying to get the gas from the kids. It's like, guys, if we were really doing that, do you think we'd, I don't know. Do you think we'd leave hints in movies about it? It is fascinating, though. Right.

The hints part of it is always what confuses me, where you're like, you think these people have these secrets that they have to hold on to their dying day, but yet they leave these hints out in public to sort of like taunt everyone into like, you'll never fucking catch me. And the weirdness of the Kubrick thing where so much of it is that like, he doesn't do press. There's years in between the films he's got such a

he lives in like a castle in England he's so mysterious that people just are going like every one of his movies is him revealing

the secrets that he can't directly speak about the weird subcultures conspiracies and mysteries

that he's gotten too close to where it's like you think he's tied to all of this he's like the one man link between every secret society every like American ill you know and it's just like

he might be a guy alright let me give you some context while you know we might as well actually get on to Right Researched evidence of Cedric Kubrick's thinking Yes Post Barry Lyndon, as you say Kubrick doesn't know what to do with himself

The movie's not exactly a colossal hit Although it does get an Oscar nomination So, like you say, he's just reading He's reading Pulling anything he can find Newspapers, magazines, anything. Paddy Chayefsky approached him. To do network.

To direct network. Which is an interesting what if. Yep. Because I feel like Lumet is a master. But Lumet is the master of like, I'll mold myself to whatever this project is. I do all kinds of different stuff. I mean, in the opening credits for that movie,

it's Paddy Chayefsky's network. And I remember people at the time asked Lumet, like, why did you do that? And he's like, well, he's like the major author of this film. I'm not gonna, I just directed it. I mean, look, that's what's so good about Lumet. Like, he was so generous about it where he was just like, I'm just serving this script.

You say Lumet and you say Lumet. I say Lumet. I say Lumet. It is Lumet. I say Lumet. It is Lumet. I think I say Lumet as like a matter of... Oh, yeah. I do it all the time.

I've been thinking, okay, I don't know. It's just Lumet, right? It's just Lumet. You read the Lumet book. It's incredible. The best. I love that he's just like...

The number one best book on movies. Here's my... Here's how to make movies. Don't forget to take a nap at lunch. Everything about it is so practical. I avoided reading that book for years because I thought it was going to be like a lot of director books where they're like

let me take you through my filmography and i was like i should watch more of his movies before i read that book and then one day i cracked it open and it's obviously more just that it's just him being like let me tell you about what it is like to make a movie every element you have to balance like and he mixes in some anecdotes i mean you must be obsessed with this book. It's like your favorite, right? Yes, yes. But there's every type of thing. Like, he talks about,

like, taking a nap. I mean, it's like that, the fucking... Talking to actors. The Michael Caine... Looking at brushes is part of it. Teaching acting,

especially that was then transcribed into the book where it's just like, okay, here's what you should eat. Right, yeah. Or not eat. Yeah.

You know, that sort of shit. Yeah, you don't want to turn up to set on with, like, bacon in your stomach or whatever. Right, and then eat. Yeah. You know, that sort of shit. Yeah, you don't want to turn up to set on with like bacon in your stomach or whatever. Right. And then Lumet will like talk about shit where he's like, I made this movie Daniel about a suicidal guy.

So my big choice was like never show the sky. Yeah. So it feels really claustrophobic. And like save it until the end of the movie where his world finally opens up. And you're like, that's smart filmmaking. What's also smart filmmaking is like, you know, have a banana in the morning.

Right. Or whatever. Always have a pocket banana. The other thing that's amazing about that book is that Lumet, like, never worked in Hollywood.

Like, that's why he's the greatest ever. Like, he says, like, I shot, like, one movie in LA.

Right. I always just work on location. But it's like, I fucked this one up. Here's what I learned about what I did wrong, too. Yeah. And when he's so mean

about some actor, but he won't name him, and you're like, sick me, you class actor. Anyway, Kubrick, considered for network, liked the script,

but Chayefsky, eventually is like, you shouldn't do it, we're two control freaks, it won't work. It's two type A's. Seems very correct. Yep.

He reads The Shining, he's consumed by it, he had seen Carrie, but otherwise has no experience with Stephen King, and not read Stephen King's books or anything. Look, in this research, there's a lot of him being kind of like, you know, a little passive aggressive about Stephen King. Or a little like backhand complimenting where he's like, Stephen's, you know, ingenuity lies in construction of the story. I don't think he's very interested in writing himself or whatever, you know, like.

Yeah, there's that quote. He keeps sort of saying like, look, he's a little trashy but he puts like every idea he has on the page without editing which makes for a compelling read but doesn't make for a compelling movie but i also think kubrick's whole thing was like a movie's not about what it's about it's about how it's about it sure so he's just like kubrick lays out a really good plot king rather right yeah he's a really good plot. King, rather. A really good plot, really good elements. I can make whatever movie I want with that as a blueprint. And the way he puts it is he's just very compelled by the

you're going to be in this movie for so long wondering. I mean, it's such a simple concept now. Maybe a little different then. Is this guy crazy or are these supernatural events? Like, he loved, I i mean he just loved he calls it ingenious and exciting an extraordinary balance between the psychological and the supernatural i guess i don't know enough about horror literature to know maybe that really was revolutionary when king's writing where he's like i'm writing a character study of a broken guy, like, of an alcoholic.

And so you can read this book for a long time thinking, like, am I, you know, is this an unreliable narrator? Like, is this just not supernatural?

Sure. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. It's really not. I mean, it's been going on since fucking, whatever, right?

I also, Jekyll and Hyde or whatever. Not to be like a fucking obvious motherfucker okay well then don't be fine then i retract the same what were you gonna say what were you gonna say did did you guys find as i did that this movie plays differently post-pandemic oh yeah oh jesus that was one of the things that i wanted to talk about right because you do have that thing where like even beyond like the alcoholism this guy's's sort of latent rage, you know, his own anger, what have you. There is that thing we're watching it.

I'm like, yeah, I understand how being stuck in one place for this long would eventually make you break your fucking brain. And I do find now that like if like I had stomach troubles yesterday, I spent the whole day in bed. It's so much easier. It takes so much less for me to start feeling like I'm losing my mind if I am in isolation for 24 hours after spending like 15 months in isolation. Yeah. It's it's almost like the body says I'm not a doctor. It's like the body says, oh, well, now we know how to get there. And it becomes so it's a quicker pathway. Yeah. Over the course of the pandemic, twice I had to go to Canada to to finish jobs.

I had to do two separate two-week hotel questions right yeah and and one thing about spending two straight weeks in one room without leaving is that you go insane very fast yep and so yes this did hit differently post-pandemic especially because by like the 11th day, you're like, I belong in here. I don't exist anywhere else. And frankly, I don't want to go out there because it's better for me. And there's no going back.

I can't be the person I was. No, I can't be the person. And that, and that pathway. I remember the second time I hit that on like day five, because the body was like oh we know where we're going that's the thing right i mean when i when i got covid and i was

pretty lucky in that i got a pretty mild case and i was like free of symptoms and testing positive again after like five days or whatever when i when i text uh david and ben and marie on like a sunday to say like i just tested positive got to fucking reschedule episodes for the next 10 days or whatever. I was like, I feel not great, not horrendous.

Right. The thing that scares me most is I just now have this like, You just have, I have to be alone in my apartment for 10 days and I'm just preemptively worried about knowing

how quickly my mind is going to slip into just like Jack Torrance shit. So it's 34. I'll be in this hotel forever. I've been here forever. It's 3411 into the movie

and you get the title screen a month later and he has lost it. And I'm like, oh, big deal. One month later. Yeah, sure. Like post pandemic. Whereas before this shit, I would have related a little bit more to the isolation i'm

like whatever whatever you can deal with that you're already showing signs of insanity i i watched this movie and maybe it is a little bit of a post-pandemic thing i've seen this movie one billion times it's like one of my favorite movies but just the tour they do yeah where and you know scatman's you know doing a great job just he's so friendly i want to circle back to scatman who i think is the second mvp of this movie he fucking rules yeah but like where he's like and in here we've got like 20 chickens and eight and i'm just like obviously there's the comforting side of like great they've got enough food and then the other side of like fuck like this is it it's for you you're

gonna be locked in here like i just start to like my hands itch yeah there was one what are we gonna eat tonight love i don't know another fucking leg shoulder lamb shoulder or whatever you know yeah the i have a thing about about like transitional spaces and there's a great moment in the movie where where the family comes up and the guys are kind of walking them around they show them that room and it's like i don't why can't they like stay up in like the nice penthouse room why is that right like that shit like a boring hotel room they're showing them around during that tour the fact that it's like so busy it's one of the scariest things this idea that it's so busy but they're like by five o'clock, it's going to be like no one was ever here.

That transitional time has got to be fucking terrifying. I started thinking about it, and I think there's a little more of it in the book, which I haven't read in a long time, of the idea of like you sit down and then you watch people leave. Yeah. And it's like watching sand through an hourglass. You're like, oh, they're not coming back. That's another one that's gone forever. And then like, you know, the janitors start to go and you're like off they go and then it's right just scatman

maybe and he's like all right guys all right you see it obviously we just cut forward but like that is so scary to think about it's i wouldn't take this job i wouldn't either it's like any of those movies or tv shows where people are on like arctic bases you know like the show or whatever right it's just like that life cargo delivery this is the first new face you see for six months and then you can set your watch at six months until there's another you know there haven't have either of you guys ever seen any of you guys there's the great fucking twilight zone episode i'm trying to remember what it's called but it's jack warden and he's like stuck in a weird desert in a small house with the lonely, the lonely.

He's got this beautiful wife and he's, you're like, is he, is this some experimental? Is he here for research? What is this? And then these guys come down to get him and it turns out like, no,

this is a form of prison, right? He's been like put on an asteroid or whatever. He's been put on an asteroid. He's on like a prison planet where the whole thing is isolation but they're like we don't want to totally lose their minds so we give them a robot so there's like someone to talk to and his wife is this robot and they're like we can't take the robot back with us because she's too heavy there's not space for her on the ship and he's just like my entire identity has become

being in love with this this robot yeah i can't right like he's like i have to kill one of you i have to get off this planet but i can't lose her you know and it's like he gets so conditioned to this bizarre reality this punishment at the end the guy shoots the robot and then she's a robot and that snaps him out right like that's what it is that's yeah you see her face like with all the gears and wires under it's a really fucking good episode yeah problematically when i think about the show west world it never really hit for me because mostly i'm just like i don't know turn them off right you know what i mean just turn it off like, okay, I'm sorry, this robot loves its daughter.

Okay, they're both fucking robots. I don't know, turn them off. You would be considered a villain in Westworld. I think I would be a villain in Westworld. Honestly, you might have been good at, like, one of the guys with, like, the iPad. Turn them off. Like, the trauma meter is so high. Why is this thing so traumatized?

Back to the death storyline. I don't know i mean like does anybody does anybody feel bad about like one of the parents like at my kid's school even asked me they're like well what if you found out that you know our son was a robot i don't know fucking turn him off like what the fuck like what if i found out the toaster didn't work i don't like i i don't anyway that's it that's like that we don't need to go too far yeah yeah the shining uh so right so kubrick another backhanded quote the novel is by no means a serious literary work but the plot is extremely well worked out and for a film that's all that matters again hey sure be nicer stan yeah just

be like you know what i love the book like why doesn't he just say that it's really just the same sentence it's especially interesting because when the movie comes out thought the book was great right yeah but from the first screening stephen king's like fuck they like they massacred my boy and then proceeds to like for five years be very polite about right right the griping was like a slow incline like very slow increase whereas kubrick when the movie's coming out is like like, I mean, obviously this novel's dog shit. This guy can't fucking write his way up a paperback. It's just very interesting, all the Kubrick quotes, which is funny considering that people are, you know, unpack his movies in this way of like, what does it mean?

And he's instead just like, a story story the supernatural shouldn't be taken apart or analyzed closely the whole test of its rationale is whether it's good enough to raise the hair on the back of your neck like which she's right like every way he described this movie was just like i really want to see how much i could scare people it was an interesting challenge i bring up casablanca all the time for this example because i showed casablanca to my friends because i love casablanca good movie what do you guys think great movie great movie yeah that's probably not seeing it is that the one or where they're in casa blanca yeah exactly and uh you know i remember showing it to my friends as a teenager it's like a little budding cinephile sure and them watching and

being like that movie's corny and i would be like well i mean no like every movie copied it right you know like and like when you watch the shining for the first time literally there are little girls who say come play with us forever and ever and ever and you should be like well that's the i've seen this a million times like right if you're in 2022 and you've never seen the shining creepy little Creepy little girls being, come play with us. Like, anyone. And yet it is still so, so scary. We were talking about where you're like, how do you talk about this movie? And it's like, oh, you just watch it and react to it.

Because the thing, you don't have to, like, create a context around it. I had to correct them. Again, like, just feel like that's cheesy. And yet not at all when you watch the movie. You're so unsettled. It's so, it's so good. And while I was watching it this time, instead of thinking about those big things, those sort of like fangy analytical things,

I found myself thinking about how the fuck did he make this so scary? That's right. And I feel like one thing that I noticed, and it happens a few times, is he waits a really long time. Like, it happens a few times, I think three or four with Danny. The first time, Danny sees the girls in the game room, the tennis ball, and shit, there's one other time where it kind of gets in on his face somebody sees something and he just doesn't fucking cut to show you what yes they're looking at and the first time is in the game room it goes into danny and he just holds on that kid and you are like show us what it is you are it is maddening because you are fucking show me i am so scared right and when it turns like even just

the technical things of like an an un like a new horror filmmaker or somebody like maybe without the clout might do like a zoom in on the twins or on the on the two girls but it's just he just kind of has them wide in that room and it's like you are now inside danny's head just seeing these two girls in the room the weird magic of the editing rhythms of this movie where you're like everything goes on for too long without being boring and it somehow only makes you more on edge where you're like can we please fucking hurry this up and whether it's the terrifying image whether it's the wind-up for the terrifying image, or a conversation. You're like, something's wrong here.

Can we just get on with it? One of my favorite scenes is the scene Tim, you know, dragged red for filth earlier and said was basically just like a fucking Netflix sketch. The bartender scene. Because, like, it's, you know, Danny's in his weird, you know, air taker outfit. For sure. His, like, sweater thing. Yeah. Everyone else is in, like, 1920s regalia. Joe Turkle, who recently died, right?

Very recently died. Who's the bartender. Yeah, just a few weeks ago. Who just has, like, a face like a fucking slab. Like, the most incredible tomb's face. And is also a Tyrell and Blade runner. Right. Love him.

Oh, shit, yeah. He's, like, so clipped and chill. And nothing happens in that scene. Yeah. Except this weird exchange of dialogue that's so stilted. And you're just like, what the hell is going on the entire time? Yeah. Or what's the turn that's about to come?

Yeah. Like, what's the... And there's, you know, there's no jump. There's not really jumps in this movie. Right. Really? Right? I mean, like, I guess Scatman getting axed is a bit of a...

I'm sure. But even that, even that you, it's, even that when you're going up the hall, every one of those pillars, you're like, fuck, he's behind that one. Right, you're pretty prepared for it. And you're like, oh, fuck, he's behind the next one, and then he isn't.

Yeah, and also just the way the music works. It's just, it's not, whatever. It's not how jump scares evolved. I don't know. I think Scatman Crothers is kind of incredible in this movie. And it's an obvious, like, complaint to the people who like to ding this movie.

And it's rooted in King's analysis of what he thinks Kubrick missed or lost from the book. But, like, Kubrick's whole thing was he took all the emotion out of it. He's, like, such an icy clinical filmmaker. And he's like, literally, the book ends with fire and the movie ends with ice. The guy seems crazy from the beginning.

No one really feels like a human. He made Nancy? Wendy. He made Wendy into too much of a victim from the beginning. All this sort of stuff, right? That's sort of the push against it. I think Skimming Crothers has so much humanity in this film. Yes, so much warmth with the kid and later.

And it's like, it's such a respite, that scene. Like, every time I watch this movie and I get to the scene where he relates to Danny and talks about The Shining, I'm like, this is the only scene in this movie that makes me feel a little comfortable. And there's something about the fact that like talking about the whole dynamic between Wendy and Jack, the other piece that I think Shelley Duvall plays so well is like her undying love for this kid and the understanding that she's sort of got to be with this guy. And the way that I think a lot of people who are in abusive relationships justify these things to themselves. It's like, I have to maintain this family dynamic for this kid. I have to try to fix this man

for this kid. I can't ever truly hate him because he gave me this kid. And Jack has this resentment of his kid being weird, right? Like, why can't you be normal? And Scammy and Crothers, like, you think, like, going back to this idea of, like, Redrum being this gigantic thing, like, you think like going back to this idea of like red rum being this

gigantic thing like you think the shining the shining the shining i i had forgotten that scatman crothers is like we called it the shining because it's a positive thing right you shine and it's like here's the one person who knows how to talk to this kid you know wendy has so many levels of sort of self-justification and sort of what she chooses to accept in her reality or not, as much as she loves this kid. Scatman's able to talk to her, to Danny, so directly,

so calmly, so confidently, and with such true, like, warmth. There's that feeling of, like, when you see someone who really knows how to talk to a kid, not talk down to them, treat them as an equal,

but with understanding of the delicacy of the thing, you know, it's really impactful. Yeah. And that it is like, you shouldn't feel burdened by this. He's so, he's so goddamn good.

He's cool too. Yeah, he's a cool guy. Like, I like his voice. Little finger guy. You're sad. Yeah, he's a cool guy. I like his voice. Little finger guy. You're sad. Yeah, absolutely. What? No, I was going to say,

do you know that Scatman Crothers was the voice of Hong Kong Phooey? Really? Yeah. He was the voice of Hong Kong Phooey? He's jazz, right?

Autobot jazz? Yes, with the Transformers. Will you tell me, because I didn't intentionally didn't look up a lot about it, what did Scatman Crothers do outside of this?

Hong Kong Fooey, Audubon Jazz. He was like a big like band leader and then singer. Like that was his, that's how he got famous. Like initially he's like a, you know, a famous singer and performer. He's called the Scatman because. The song Scatman is about him. Well, yeah, he was a scat singer. Like he would do that.

That's what I assume. You know, like, but yeah, it would be funny if he was just like no it's just like no no his real name is benjamin yeah it's like if there's a guy named rock and roll tompkins and they're like why you call him rock and roll tompkins like that guy created rock and roll uh he's in a you know he was the best i mean he's in a zillion movies but he had been in a bunch of nicholson movies he's in king of marvin oh sure and the fortune and cuckoo's nest and so nicholson recommends him for this and nicholson apparently said to kubrick like look he's really good but he will struggle with these lines like to remember his lines he's not like that's not his forte and apparently you know that scatman struggled with

the kubrick 80 takes right per shot thing but nicholson does say like kubrick was never going to replace him like there was never any kind of tension like that all right so here's a scatman quote one scene i get out of a snowcat and i walk across the street with no dialogue 50 takes yeah i i really do wonder what you think as an actor when that's happening i just think i think kubrick like even with a very obviously emotional performance like wendy in this he finds a way to break his actors to a point where they all have that odd kubrick vibe to them you know and even danny casting like a real kid it's such an extensive search to find a kid who felt real but he exists on this kubrick wavelength

and scatman somehow avoids that where you're like, he's from a different movie. He's from a warmer reality where people know how to relate to each other. And when that one scene where he's on the phone at the airport, you're weirdly chilled out

all of a sudden. That's the thing. Oh my God, right. Every time he's on screen, every time you cut away to him, whether or not I think he's going to be able to save anyone or stop anything from happening.

I knew he would die because of Groundskeeper Willie. Like, I'd seen the Simpsons episode before I saw this. He has, he strikes me as one of those guys like everybody else on that shed is set is going to show up and be like oh wow stanley kubrick okay well okay stanley kubrick and he strikes me as the kind of guy who the fuck's that yeah like okay all right but i'm scatman crothers right i'm here to do my thing i'm here to do my thing. I'm here to do my thing. And he would be like, and maybe that's...

I always admire people like that. Yes. That they're so willing to not worry. There was this thing went around recently, this anecdote where the movie he did after this was Bronco Billy, which is a Clint Eastwood movie. Right. And apparently, like...

Mr. Half a Take. That's the thing. Right. after months and months of kubrick he shows up to bronco billy they shoot a shot they do one scene and clint's like great move on and scatman says like he started crying because he was like yeah that was good you know like the opposite and so people are like god you know then the narrative of course just sort of rears up ptsd yeah kirk was so awful and like he broke scab jj does link to a video here that i watched beforehand that's why uh where like he seems very

positive about doing this movie having done this movie it's not like he was like what a nightmare but i do think he was baffled by doing 180 takes of like listing chickens who doesn't come from like an acting background and it's like, you're an interesting, charismatic figure. We should put you in movies. And his career, like, sort of grows and grows and grows and grows, but it's based on his understanding

of his own naturalism and whatever. And then here's this guy who's, like, forcing him into rigid perfectionism. But it's, like, that's why it works, because he's coming from an entirely different...

I mean, Shelley Duvall is also so fascinating on this count, because it's, like... Right, but I so fascinating on this count because it's like... Right, but I'm just saying in terms of background, like... Well, she had not really worked with another director. Yeah, she's discovered for Bruce McCloud

as a makeup tester at a mall. And the producer was just like, Bobby, you gotta come see this woman. She's the most fascinating human being I've ever witnessed. That's how she ended up in this movie. In Bruce McCloud, in her first like because like she does what six altman movies in a row it's brucer mccabe thieves like us nashville buffalo she was doing like makeup demonstrations at a mall and the producer went to bob altman was like you got to see this woman

and they like have her audition and they're like i is this act like this is how she talks and how she moves what she looks like and everything like just the most bizarre energy and he essentially like was just like well you can't act but you're so fascinating and then movie after movie she starts to like really develop where you get to the point of three women where you're like this is like a fucking incredible performance this is someone clearly has come into but she also does just have such magnificent natural enemy energy in those movies it's so cool and then she is in annie hall yes for a second that was her only that's her only non-non-altman until then and altman's whole

thing was like when he found somebody he was like you only work for me this is like my little mafia i'll keep you he made like a movie a year so at least you were working but right yeah but like bud court does mash and brewster back to black back and then gets offered harold and maude and he goes to take that and altman's like door closed you're never welcome back what a fun chill guy incredibly unshilled guy so like her taking this was a big ass deal because altman was like have fun she's cast in Popeye against Altman's wishes. Like, the studio's like, you have to cast

Shelley Ball. No one has ever looked more like Olive Oil as a human being. And he's like, I don't talk to her anymore. Oh my God. She's so good in Popeye.

That might be like one of her greatest performances. Yeah. But it's like, you know, she's someone who sort of developed her own acting process purely through working

with one director who had a very unique approach to actors over the course of a decade uh where you get to the point where three women she she like wins the best actress at con right and people were just like oh this is someone who clearly knows what they're doing this is not just an interesting energy anymore everything that she does in this movie is incredible yeah even when i like you know when he's finally writing and she goes in to talk to him like she has like she has this way of keeping everything light in that way of like well i just thought i'd come in and check on you you know like in that way of like somebody who is like, well, I never know what I'm going to get from this person.

Right, just constantly dealing with a powder keg. Yeah. And like, and also like the sort, it feels like, especially like what we were talking about earlier, that scene where she's talking to the doctor who comes to the house looking for Danny, and she's telling the story about, you know, like a hundred other times you do this it's it feels light but also rehearsed and it feels like she has gone

through it enough times that it that it sounds true but it is but you if you dig through it enough you're like oh no this is an act like it's a really amazing performance that she gives Like, it's a really amazing performance that she gives. King's objections are known. So I'll just wrap that with, he has his quote, it's a big, great Cadillac with no motor inside. Sounds spooky. Sounds like the premise of a Stephen King novel.

Yes. And like you said, he has a sort of like, the book is hot, the movie is cold. You know, ends in fire, ends in ice. He lubricates emotions. He doesn't care to dig into these things. And he has the complaint that many have lodged over the years of like it's misogynistic she's a shrew she's a nag like turns wendy into this one-dimensional character which i don't think is true but i i wow i couldn't agree with i think she's one-dimensional in the way that every character in this movie is one-dimensional which is not but you know what i mean like where

you're like well nicholson's crazy and she's scared. Like it's just because performances are so at the surface. Yeah. Yeah. Um, anyway, uh, obviously he co-wrote this movie with Diane Johnson,

who's a very famous novelist before and after. And she obviously is a huge influence on the writing of the script. Um, and they, they like, she like moved to London, you know, and worked on this script with him for months. Like it wasn't just they, they like, she like moved to London, you know, and worked on this script

with him for months. Like it wasn't just some kind of like she took a pass. There's a lot. I mean, look, I mean, look,

we love you, JJ, but it's the longest dossier ever. I can't do it all. Yeah. It's also just one of those things with The Shining where you're just like,

if you start digging into the context too deeply, you're like, am I ever going to get out of this? The more I know, the more aware I become of what I don't know or haven't considered or whatever, you know? It's such an endless pool.

The thing you said, Kubrick's kind of complaint of like, he just puts everything into it, so they start pulling stuff out. The topiary animals that come to life. There's all these flashbacks. They remove all of that that are in the novel. Things like that. Have you guys read that? anyone read the shining part for me i think i read it when i was like the sixth grade one of my bona fides for being on this is that i grew up in maine

right true you're a mainer mainer you're a mainer right like you can go back and they're they're like you're still a mainer or are you no oh yeah no i guess just because the cat had kittens in the oven don't make them biscuits. My parents are from the Midwest. So that's cause that's what my, I have, we have close family friends in Maine and I guess it's the, the mom married the dad and like the dad's a Mainer and she's lived there for like 40 fucking years.

And she's like, I'll never be a Mainer. Like they'll never accept me. I'm from Ohio or what? I mean, like I was born at a hospital in Augusta, Maine. Sure. I grew up my entire life there.

Right. Uh, 207. But is that, that's the area. Oh, sure. That's the main train code. But no, I mean like I met, I met a guy in Chicago and I said, Oh, it's like, I'm from Maine. He's like, yeah.

I was like, yeah. He's where your parents born. Jesus Christ. This motherfucker. Also, you left the siren where your parents born. Jesus Christ! This motherfucker. Also, you left the siren call of the Adrenochrome. You couldn't resist. The Adrenochrome. Kubrick casts Jack Nicholson, a famed actor.

He had wanted him to play Napoleon in his Napoleon movie. Yeah, which is wild. Kind of unbelievable. What the fuck is that movie? Nicholson is Napoleon? Reading that, though, and Kub Kind of unbelievable. Like, what the fuck is that movie? Nicholson is Napoleon? Reading that, though, and Kubrick had some quote about, like, yeah, I think pretty much everyone in Hollywood

wants Nicholson for every leading role. You're like, oh, Nicholson was kind of in that Adam Driver position where it's like... It's like, why wouldn't you want this guy? We have a leading man who is so unique and so interesting and also has become bankable. If you're a serious director that's with a difficult role

why wouldn't you pick this guy he actually is a scene as a box office draw he's also like a top actor Kubrick compares him to who he thinks are the two greatest stars

Spencer Tracy and Jimmy Cagney so and I and both of those make sense or it's like those guys are not like conventionally handsome sure and they're not even

necessarily like like big robust guys, but they are such good actors and they were movie stars like fuck off movie stars. Yeah. And I think the thing he shares with Cagney is the like, why is this guy so watchable? Like this guy can kind of make anything interesting, you know,

and can play dark and can play light and funny and serious and anything it's just like oh he can kind of sell an audience on anything so the more difficult the material or the character the more you're like i just give me nicholson then then the movie makes sense then i don't have to pitch it to people they both like the book they talk about like what do we want to keep what we want to the fight the thing they fight over is nicholson wanted like the sexual element like the sort of sexual repression sexual violence how surprising um and he says like i think there's more for me to work with i thought it'd be really terrifying and stanley's answer was it will be too terrifying yeah which is interesting it was like that put your dick away for a second jack not

everything's about fucking um you know the way stanley put it like the murders have to be less sinister to keep the idea of the supernatural real. I don't really know what that means, but it does make a sort of sense anyway. Like, if she said that to me, I would be like, okay. Like, you know, I wouldn't really fight Kubrick on that. I will say this, too. I do think you talk about how few people die in this movie. Especially for a movie where a guy's wielding an axe for over an hour straight, it feels like.

He's got an axe for a while. There's a bat in there. There's some weapons. There is a certain catharsis, weirdly, to a killing on screen, right? Where, like, if you see Michael Myers stab somebody, the tension's released out of the balloon for a little bit because you're like, well, at least it's probably five minutes until that happens again. That's exactly what it is. You can sort of set your watch over. Right.

And now, great. The movie's got to dip for a moment. Because the whole thing with a slasher movie is like, if he's going to kill someone else, we're going to have to meet them. Yes. Figure out where they are. And then we're going to get going. Like, you know, even if we've met the character before, we're going to need to be like, okay, this character's in a fun house. Right.

You know, whatever. Like, and in the same way, it's like, if you're never letting this guy fuck. It's like, if you're never letting this guy fuck, and you're kind of never letting him swing the axe at people, you know, and making impact, then it's just building and building and building and building. You looked like you had something you wanted to say. No, no, no. I just really enjoyed your, like, oh, they're in a funhouse.

Sure. I really enjoyed that. Like, Myers is in a funhouse. Nicholson says the scene where he's writing, and he unloads on her right that was his suggestion yeah he's like that's like me when i got my divorce yeah uh and you know under the pressure of like being a family guy and like i don't know like he that's the you know he talks about that um you know what i think is so good about that scene it's like the torturous relationship to writing

where you're like well first of all the reason I can't write is one problem and if I fix that one problem then floodgates gonna open and this won't be a torturous process to me oh the problem is I'm around too many people I gotta move to a empty hotel top of a mountain and then and then it will flow baby right like there's the amount of times i've told myself like oh the problem is i don't like physically writing if i get a text-to-speech headset then i'll write fucking four novels a week or whatever it is right and i love that like all of that is present at that first scene where he's like well i'm working on an outline of a new right story and it's like oh no an outline of a new story. And it's like, oh, no. An outline.

You're not great. You're going to crush this living alone in a cavernous hotel. He's so committed to this idea of like, I got to take a big swing to solve the writer's block, you know, to just loosen everything up. But also when he spills on his like, you don't understand the pressure keeping this family, whatever. So much of it is like, I can't write because i'm so busy with this family that's the problem and when she comes in and quote unquote disrupts him yeah it's that thing where you're like i'm looking for there to be an outside thing i can blame this yeah you can just place all this on too right right where it's like i i was gonna be writing for the next 10 hours. Yeah. And now you've broken the flow.

It's addiction too. Yeah. I mean, that is what, that's my big read. I mean, and it's obvious, but like him not having alcohol for five months and now locked with, locked in a space with basically the cause of it, which is his wife and his kid. I mean, that behavior, that reaction, it's like subconscious when you're an addict. You just lash

out at anyone around you because you just want the thing that's making you feel empty. But it's also the same line of thinking where it's like, okay, how do I kick the bottle? Seclude myself in a mouth. If I don't have access to alcohol, then i'll be

fine then i just if i can't then i will be okay it's like no you're gonna go nuts yeah so ben you you would said you would take this job though so is it like the simple plan where you were like if i'd found that money i would have kept it and used it wisely here you're like if i got in that hotel i would have written a great novel and the guy comes back hotel spick and span i would have written a great novel and not the guy comes back hotel spick and span i would have been eating fucking racks of fucking ribs i would have had a good dining out like a king yeah man you would be watching this movie like jotting down recipe ideas that scatman's going through the dry story he went to indeed.com looking for people. I can't peaches. Oh man, get some ice cream. That would be a delicious little dessert. How long?

I think I could do a week. And then I would have to go. I think about a week is what I can imagine doing. Just like you can't fucking leave. You're just in this empty hotel. I was an only child. So I think I could do a solid two months. I'm not kidding.

I had stomach problems yesterday. And by the end of the day, staying in bed, I felt like I was losing my mind. I think it is the pathway, though, what you're saying of like. It's just been opened up and you just like you're tumbled down that hole. It takes an hour alone. I start to go like, well, do I ever leave? All right. There was the moment where he's throwing the tennis ball against the wall. Like it starts on the typewriter with nothing on the page and then it pans out.

He's throwing the tennis ball against the wall. I'm like, oh, man. Yeah. I've been there, but I get it. Like, yeah, there was something very relatable and great about that, even though it was about him going like beginning to go crazy. I was just like on like the writerly part being like, yeah, man. Yeah, do it.

Yeah, actually, two months seems like a long time. Yeah. That's a lot of time, my friend. All right. I'll scale it back.

You get Netflix in this world. Oh, okay. Big difference. Just Netflix. Also, Ben, you wouldn't need that much time. You know what?

I had Netflix when I was in those hostels and I still went fucking insane. Oh, yeah. I don't think it really would help. No. But Ben, you wouldn't need that much time because you'd finish? I had Netflix when I was in those hostels and I still went fucking insane. I don't think it really would help. No. But Ben, you wouldn't need that much time because you'd finish the novel in like three days. Oh, easy. Yeah, right.

It would be funny if this movie it's like day three and he's like, novel done! And then he goes crazy. It'd just be funny if he actually wrote the novel. He has to start editing it. Oh, that's crazy. It's also...

It's interesting that this comes from Stephen King, who I think is thought of as, like, a faucet. Yeah, right. He just writes and writes and writes and writes. Right. And, like, Kubrick's complaint is, like, well, he puts every idea in the book. But it is...

The benefit of that is, like, he writes four books a year like he just takes whatever he's feeling at that moment he talks about writer's block and he said he's had it and i'm sure he has but then also you're like your writer's block must be very short and intense because you do produce so much one i think he was like struggling to come up with a concept for the shining or for his next book before this. Well, he saw something shiny and he was like, I don't know, what am I going to do with this? Uh-huh.

No, but I saw quotes from him where he was sort of like, you know, I went on vacation and then I was in this abandoned hotel and then I, you know, there weren't that many people there and the hallway started to scare me. Like, it was true,

like a 12-hour process where he like woke up the next morning and was like, I think I got the whole book in my head. And then he starts writing. That's what he's got. I mean, that's the same with Pet Sematary. It was like a truck almost ran my kid over,

and I was like, all right, and then I wrote a novel. Right. And showed it to his wife, and his wife was like, this is the most fucked up thing you've ever written. What the hell is going on with you? You know, Pet Sematary is my favorite scene. I saw some interview with him recently, where it was him in sort of conversation with another writer,

and I forget who it was, on stage, and he was asking him, like, how do you fucking do it this much? And he's like, well, I just think my books tend to be about 500, 600 pages long,

and I just commit to writing 10 pages a day. That means you pretty much get it done in two months. Yeah, I mean. And they were like, and you just open up the laptop and you

successfully get 10 pages done every day, and he's like, yeah, pretty much. He's like, I don't use a laptop. Write it by hand. Well, sure.

I don't know how to write it. Whatever it whatever yeah yeah he does another shout out to maine who to maine oh great shout out state generally sure what is what is the what's this like it's the what state you know you know how like it's like oh the nutmeg state or whatever like does mean over the pine tree state oh pine tree state wow so there is a certain new England-y work ethic that that speaks to of like, I think everybody there would have a hard time being an artist. And so it makes sense that he's like, I just get up and write. He's like, right. It's work.

I'm not precious about this. I woke up and just like every other person that lives here, I did my work. And at the end of the day, I was done doing it. doing if i'm a writer it is my job to write every day i'm not gonna question whether dreamcatcher is insane yeah i'm just gonna finish writing he has said about that's that's the goofballs book where he was like i do not remember right i was 100 on painkillers the entire time Nothing about that book of course Suggests that at all And you know we talked about this on the KingCast You know what the original title of that book was

Buttweasels? Cancer And his agent was like That's a bummer and also this book isn't about cancer I don't know I feel like it He was like Anyway Shelley Duvall Kubrick casts her Both Nicholson and Kubrick sort of talk about her in the same way I don't know. I feel like it. He was like, yeah. Anyway, Shelley Duvall. Yes. Yeah.

Kubrick casts her. Both Nicholson and Kubrick sort of talk about her in the same way that feels like mildly insulting, but you know what they mean where Kubrick's like, you can't have Jane Fonda

play this part. You need someone who's mousy and vulnerable and eccentric. And Nicholson talks about it too. Nicholson kind of wanted Jessica Lange who makes more sense

because especially at this time she's so fragile. He does. Emotionally in those early roles. With her. Right. The next year, which is a movie but she but she was a very delicate actress despite being very poised sure at the early run i think the first 10 years they both sort of have this thing of like we need to like in the book she's a much more self-possessed person but you're like

why is she still putting up with him we wanted someone who felt a little more self-possessed person, but you're like, why is she still putting up with him? We wanted someone who felt a little more vulnerable. Or what, you know, like that's the sort of logic of casting someone like Shelley Duvall. They also talk about that thing where it's like the fact that she's not a trained actor,

she didn't have all these weird behavioral tics taught out of her. You know, there's something just, she does things on screen, the way she moves her body, the way she holds herself, her energy is just stuff that like, she's something just, she does things on screen, the way she moves her body, the way she holds herself, her energy is just stuff that, like, she's completely unique. You know, she just sort of vibrates in every moment. I think she totally, she's such an incredible actress.

I mean, I think, like, the whole conversation around her has gotten tied up in the fact that she had, like, mental problems later in life. And, like, people sort of connected the dot of, like, well, The Shining, like, ruined her. Right life, and, like, people sort of connected the dot of, like, well, The Shining, like, ruined her. Right. Which is, like, not true. Yes. Like, and she's very clear that that's not true. But, like, it's, you know, there's that one interview.

What was it? Was it Dr. Phil? Yes. That's, like, devastating to watch where you're like, she shouldn't be in front of a camera. Right, right. It's from, like, a few years ago. Dr. Phil, a very exploitative man. Right. He used to be very pro-Phil.

I went through a period where I was finding it very cathartic to watch Dr. Phil yell at families it was 2016 like it was just one of those things where it was clearly like

turn the cameras off like she's not ready for this like or whatever and like she's she did that Hollywood Reporter interview like last year yeah which was good

it felt a little more like okay she sort of found her peace a little bit right but like there's no question that making this movie was an absolute nightmare for her like and yes the one of the biggest things that nicholson talks about that's interesting is like he's like we all lived in london we all rented places in london and she rented a place in l street which is you know north of london where London where the studio is, and, like, never fucking went into the city. Yeah.

Because she was, like, so in it. All right, shut up. And he was, like... How do you know geography? I'm a little bit confused. Elstree is actually, like, a later stop on the Thameslink, which is what I took to school every day. Well, but...

I'm sorry. I'm leaving. You took the subway? No, not the subway. It was the Thames subway. No, not the subway. It was the Thameslink. It's not the subway. Well, that's a really long train ride to go into New York City. It would be funny.

For school every day? What's the turnaround time? I took Thameslink from Kenishtown to Blackfriars, guys. Hit me up for any other Thameslink riders. Those are such strange names for an MTA. Right. I'm like, what line is that? Two threes?

I'm so sorry. You're a guest on our show. This feels like some Kubrick-esque. Is there a mystery? My college roommate was Irish. He was from Northern Ireland. And when he came to visit me the first time in London, where I lived for 13 years.

What? Yeah, I lived for 13 years. What? Yeah, I lived in Kentish town. And he was like, that's such a funny name. And I was like, why is that? What do you mean? And he's like, you know, it's like, not Kent. Kentish. It's like if there was a New Yorkish city.

Where someone's like, this place is like a lot like Kent. The guy's like, no, it's okay. It's Kentish. It's Kentish. Yeah. I just, as absolutely as a side note, and David, I think you're going to appreciate this. As the podcast has gotten bigger, you know,

and it feels like people are really starting to listen. I described it as unwieldy, but go on. Unwieldy. Good call. Yeah. Griffin, you've gone fucking soft on the bits. You've let David get in your head. And you know what? Fuck him.

You thought I was going to enjoy this? I like this. I like this. I like this. I like this. You fucking do you. I will fucking do you. No, no, no, no, no. Do the bitch. I've been giving him a break

because he's got the kid at home. You went soft. Sleeping less. You went fucking soft. No, I admit it. I admit it. You're trying. You're kowtowing to David.

I know. I reply. I think you stopped doing it. Jack Torrance over here. I don't like how he shouted at me. You think what? That you stopped doing it just because I was getting incredibly bored. No, no.

I think this is exactly the kind of like light blood infusion. Wait, why do they? I'm a new listener. What is this? If I met you right now, I would never believe that you would be the kind of guy to do a weekly podcast about the movie Blank Check. Right. And I just want to know what you're putting out into the world right now. Right.

Today, you'd be like, this pussy would would never ever do something that punishing no he would never commit to a bit that hard that's yeah uh anyway she lived in elstree uh how would you know that so wait wait sorry i did i did give you a clear example like like a new yorkie example it'd be like if you fucking like we're shooting a movie in like even beyond westchester like rockland county and rather if you were holed up in a hotel in beachwood ohio while everyone else was yucking like okay that how long was like the the car ride from your hotel to the set it was the car ride the hotel the set was very short we were closer to the location okay that helps because like yeah basically it's like nicholson is like, we took the two-hour car ride.

Right. But it's worth it. It's a year and a half making this fucking movie because it's a Stanley Kubrick movie. You live in London. You can go home and be in a city. We were in that position. Like, Kevin Costner was like hour-plus car ride

and we were like 15 minutes from location but with nothing around us. So you have to do it with Shelley Duvall. But of course, like, how long does draft day take to make? I don't know. We were out there. Four years? No, no.

We had six weeks of real filming, our section of the movie. She lived in Elstree for 18 months. Yeah, but also, and Shelley Duvall didn't have a Tim Simons

to keep her safe. Yes, there was a Cedar Rapids. You were two years old. Three? I don't know. Three at the time. You could have been helping.

So I would say, I had an experience. I was filming something in uh in new orleans but if you know new orleans it was like on the other side of lake poncha train sure which would be like staying in l street sure wherever that place yeah yeah yeah way the fuck out and it's not something i'll ever do again and that thing like i that i wasn't for a year and a half but that thing you're talking about rings true just because if you are that isolated from everything it wears on you and i wouldn't make that choice again um right angelica houston talks and who she's dating nicholson at the time she talks about like i would see shelly having a

hard time she's like an outside observer she's not there a hard time. She's like an outside observer. She's not there all the time. But she's like, I may have been misreading this, but it kind of felt like the boys were ganging up on her. Like, it's like, you're Rick and Nicholson, these old hands. And she's like much more inexperienced with a production like this. There's always been this. And look, I don't think it's exclusive to this movie, this dynamic, these actors and

director. But this is sort of an example. It perfectly kind of exemplifies this thing that you hear about sometimes where it's just like it is assumed the man can act and is assumed the director has to trick the performance out of the woman. You know, right. Yeah, sure. Like, why don't we like psychologically get her to? And also, like, she's fucking sobbing and screaming for so much of this movie.

This is the biggest thing. I want to put a pin in that. I'm going to get back to that in one second. But I do think there's that thing, and I think it's tied to sort of this, like, the way that method acting is mythologized with this certain type of leading man, right? And these men who punish themselves,

but have the strength to create the circumstances for themselves, put them And these men who punish themselves, but have the strength to create the circumstances for themselves, put them, set them up for themselves, give the performance, take themselves out of it, survive. Right? Whereas like women are not really given the cultural leeway to talk about what they put themselves through for a performance.

But I also think they don't feel this sort of need to make acting feel tough in that way. I think it's very much this sort of like masculine overcompensation of what can be seen as a dainty job of like, I have to make this torturous. Sure. Whereas like when you talk, when you hear interviews with the best female actors of any era, they're all like,

you just do the work. It's more studious. It's more academic, you know, but like all the best actors sort of just talk about like meryl streep i mean there's the anecdote i always think about when meryl streep's on the set of doubt and meryl streep is by all accounts someone who just turns it on turns it off right right and she's in the scene with philip sauer hoffman he's like pacing back and forth and like punching himself in the head and like digging his nails into his leg. And she just is going like, you don't need to do it,

Phil. You don't need to do all that. I'm telling you. And of course she's so good in that movie. The point is, got her. Jesus. Sorry.

Meryl Streep dead on the floor. You conjured her out of the air just to murder her in Ben's apartment. Um, so there's that whole thing. Right. And the other part of it, I was reading, I think it was in the dossier, but some quotes from Shelley DeVault in the making of the film, which just because

the production is so fucking long. I think they'd originally told her it was going to be 12 weeks, and then it was like 18 months, right? But she said, like, there's a lot of crying in three women. She was like, I think that's why he hired me, because I had this extended sort of emotional breakdown at the end that movie that showed him that I could do that sustained for a longer period of time. Whatever. 18 months is a different story.

And she sort of was like, look, there's a certain point in time. And it goes almost back to what you're saying, Tim, about like the heat stroke thing. Right. Where it's like whatever tricks you have to get your body into that state, your mind into that state. I have a playlist, sad music. I'm listening to it on a Walkman, whatever, right? She's like, at a certain point, your body doesn't enjoy that. And it starts to go like, I'm not falling for that. I'll give you the quote. After a while, your body rebels. It just says, stop doing this to me. I don't want to cry every day. And the thought alone would start to make me cry. Waking up on a Monday so early and

realizing I'm crying all day. Like that's the schedule. Right. I would just start crying. And I would be like, I know I don't know how to do it. I can't. And yet I did it. I don't know how I did it. Jack said that to me, too. He said, I don't know how you do this. It's this weird thing of like all the tricks you have to be able to do it in your own control start to go away because your basic survival mechanisms start to rebel against the way you're fucking with yourself. And she would say, like, I would actually by the end of the day, I would find myself feeling very relaxed because it was like sort of I've exercised everything from my system. It's really hard to get there and it's harder to get there the longer the shoot goes on.

And then it is this weird thing where it's like, oh, the thing that gets her to cry is the fear of needing to cry, which then becomes a very unhealthy cycle. I will say that I had not read that quote even in the same way that when I watch a movie that when they're shooting like in the same way that when I watch a movie

that like when they're shooting out in the cold I'm like oh everybody was cold that day yeah sure I'm watching this movie and watching her performance and I'm not saying this to take away from Jack Nicholson's Jack Nicholson's is very good is incredible yeah but also but I look at that I'm like okay he's doing it and I look at her and i say i don't know how she is doing this right i that is so it's so hard to do for such a long time nicholson's performance is also like iconic and i mean that in like he feels like an icon or you know like whereas she's giving this just like insanely emotional performance that he's they're very very different i don't know she's really good everyone's good in this movie. I agree. The think you should leave thing, right?

Yeah. I went to a rabbit hole watching Robert Duvall interviews recently. You know, one of the best to ever do it. Now one of our last sort of living elder statesmen of that era. I mean, don't even fucking bring him up because you'll probably die. It's worrying.

It's worrying, especially with the way we've been losing a lot of the grades recently. I mean, this is the thing. Someone i was like i can't believe all these guys are dying i'm like they're all like i know i know i know just we're we're like getting to a generation of more celebrities existed which means more iconic people are able to die in greater numbers part of it and then it's also there used to be fewer movies yeah you're right you're right um but i yeah i don't know how to tell everybody this. Everyone that created something

you liked will die. They will die at some point. And if you're lucky, you die before them. You don't have to grief them. Colbert did an extended Robert Duvall episode sometime last year where he went to his fucking ranch in Montana and talked to him for like

30 minutes. That's cool. It's really cool. And Colbert just kind of keeps on pushing him, going like, okay, but how do you act so well? And he's like, I don't know. I read the script and then I say the things. And he's like, but what's your process? He's like, I don't know.

I just act. Like, he's one of those guys who's very unfussy about it. And he sort of says, like, but what is the secret? Like, what makes you so good? And Duvall puts it this way that it's been ringing in my head, but it kind of nails it where he's just like, it's about understanding your basic temperament. Like, who are you? What is your temperament?

What are you feeling that day and not allowing yourself to reach outside of that? So whatever is on the page that you have to find a way to dramatically depict that day you don't want to push for something outside of where you're feeling at that moment you want to find a way to do the best version with the emotion you have in you at that point and i think that i think links tim robinson and jack nicholson is there are two guys who can go so fucking big, have these crazy outbursts, but it never feels like they're pushing. It somehow feels like that's within their basic temperament.

How are we still temperament? No, because it is this thing when you're talking about like, does it ruin this performance, right? I think the unified thing, and Tim Robinson uses it for comedy, but that with Nicholson, you're just like,

he's able to go fucking humongous and you never feel like this guy's overacting. You're like somehow he has this access to like, yes, mania in a second. And there was a clip from the Vivian Kubrick documentary, which is, you know, one of the things that people study to go like, were torturing shelly devol right right but there's a moment where he's there with his script and he's like sort of underlining just his character name on his lines with like a check mark and he goes like i stole this from boris karloff i saw that karloff used to mark his lines this way and i started doing it and then the camera pans up and he's like and much like karloff i can go mad at any second and you're just like oh he literally can just like turn that on right and it doesn't feel like goofy yeah no it doesn't right and it is that thing with him where you're just like oh he had this very broad canvas and could go bigger than most actors could without it ever feeling like a push. Like it was outside of his basic temperament.

The fucking making of, there's a whole bit with him brushing his teeth in the bathroom, right, before going to set. And then that day, right, when they're shooting that little moment, he then goes and grabs an axe and starts swinging it at a fucking door and is like he just goes from like a normal funny guy to being so i mean fucking yeah he famously like broke the door down more than

they thought he could like because because he used to be a fireman as well i think he like he knew what he was doing there's the story too that like on a few good men he did every single take of the you can't handle the truth scene where there's like you know coverage of 15 different people in that courtroom sitting in the you know in the court marsh he did off camera for everyone's like fucking takes and he did full energy every time and rob rand would go up to him go like jack very generous kind of you but you don't need to do that for like fucking demi moore's coverage it's's fine. And he'd just go like, I love acting.

Like he was just like, this is the good part. You know, I enjoy this. Like he's one of those guys who just seemed to have kind of endless energy, never got tired of doing the thing. I mean, you hear the stories about like when Bob Rafelson was writing head with him,

another recently departed legend, where he thought, like, I'm going to be more of a writer director. Maybe I'll act a little bit. And as they were writing the script, Nicholson would like get up and act out every part. And he'd be like, why the fuck is this guy a movie star? Like anything he starts embodying, he'd do an impression of a dog. And I'd be like, this guy is so fucking compelling, you know, where it's like you can give him a role like this, where it's like, by the way, at the end, all bets are off. Nothing's too big. And it remains somehow a little bit grounded. Tim Robinson does the thing where he like tilts his head 90 degrees and it's going,

do you actually believe that that is what that's the thing? That's the magic. And I agree with that, but I am now calling. We will not talk about Tim Robinson. Anyway, we've not discussed the shining enough. Tim Robinson,

the Jack Robinson of his generation. No, I'm retiring him. His number's getting pulled up to the ref. Jesus. The last coffin has flopped. No, I'm retiring him. His number's getting pulled up to the ref. Jesus. The last call has flopped. We are moving on. Wow.

He's done. We can't keep... Someone's eventually going to send it to him being like, do you realize you're compared to Nicholson for like 25 minutes? The means, the Reddit's going to go fucking wild on this one. Either putting like Nicholson photos

with I don't want to be around anymore. This is why I was almost worried to bring it up.son photos with I don't want to be around anymore. This is why I was almost worried to bring it up because I don't want to anyway, anyway, anyway. All right. The Shining.

The Shining. We've obviously been talking about The Shining. Obviously. I mean, maybe do we talk about Danny a little bit? Here's the thing I want to say. This is the thing I want to say

because it gets into this whole mention what happens in the movie yeah you know i could do that you talk about scatman cruther kubrick kubrick's little fucking freaky deaky because he fucking puts like as you go in scatman crothers is miami apartment sure you have like the naked woman picture above his TV. True. And then in the reverse shot, there's another fucking giant naked woman picture above him. Well, this guy's a fucking hound dog. He's a hound dog. He's having fun.

Yeah. He's got a good energy. He's having a good time. No, the thing I wanted to say about Danny, I guess I got this whole thing. The actor's called Danny Lloyd, and it's basically the only thing he ever did. Yeah. He makes a cameo in Dr. Sleep. He does. Yeah, yeah. He's like, but like. He's basically the only thing he ever did. He makes a cameo in Doctor Sleep? He does, yeah, yeah.

He's in the stands at a baseball game or whatever. I think it's the Jacob Tremblay scene. Jacob Tremblay, another actor who, by all accounts, can kind of just turn it on, turn it off. He's incredible in Doctor Sleep. Yeah, incredible. You ever worked with Trems? No, never worked with Trems. One day, I want someone to give me a trim saying

uh go on what were you gonna say about dan dan i i struggle with kid actors i just like would like with like this kind of kid actor where it's like it's not like he went on to become a grown-up actor and you're like oh how interesting you're just like what an interesting you know they did a great job conjuring a performance out of a kid no this is what i've got a great look this is what i was gonna say because the whole conversation of like a Kubrick breaking people, does he have to force the performance out? What is it? He was very adamant that like this kid did not know he was in a horror movie.

They talk about that a lot. Right. He built this like it was a drama. Right. I like found ways to get the shots I needed out of him without ever submitting him to the reality of this film. Right. They were like very protective of this kid.

Yeah, totally. And then this kid seemingly had good parents and they were like, you're not going to do this for the rest of your life. Great, like very protective of this kid. Yeah, totally. And then this kid seemingly had good parents and they were like, you're not going to do this for the rest of your life. Great, great, great. I say this as a joke, but I actually kind of mean it.

I don't think children should be allowed to do this. I think that you should have to, you should have to play, babies should be played by 18-year-old people. people you're just and i know what you mean like it's just like child acting is just kind of inherently exploitative no matter how much control you put on even in the best circumstances yeah it's not it's not a great idea i also think

like at the very least my my thought has always been you get to do one yeah if you're a kid you do one job and then you got to move on right we can't the second becomes a career and you're spending too much time in this adult world and all of that uh what's his dude for that ran that show ran uh sons of anarchy and his writer on the shield kurt stutter kurt stutter yeah he talked about like his kids were like yeah they were like they were like what if your kids want to go in because i think he's married to katie yes yes and they have kids together. And he was like,

yeah, they can absolutely act if they want. They're in a high school. They can do high school plays. But they're not stepping on a set until they are legal adults and they can make that choice.

Right. And this is like, this is a happy story where it's like, here's a kid who gives a great performance in an iconic film. Everyone on the crew

in the making of the film went out of their way to not let this traumatize him. And then he pretty much retired and he's a school teacher and he's very happy. And he's great in this movie. He is.

He is. It's just very natural and like there's just something about the way his face reads. You know, those reaction shots they get out of him. He's a little sickly.

Like they put a little, I think, like rouge under his eyes or something. It's just like he's got a little... David's doing the face. I mean, the big wheel scenes are just like my favorite. It's like, I could just watch that for hours.

It's unbelievable. It's truly hypnotizing. It's the thing of the carpet, and then you need the wood floor. Yes, the carpet and the... Oh, I love it. So when I was looking at the special features There was a commentary

With people who worked Behind the scenes Camera operators And he said the inventor of the Steadicam This was early enough In the run of the Steadicam I'll give you the Steadicam research Because it is important

Bound for Glory is the first one Correct, that's the first time it's used and Kubrick I guess had been sent a demo reel like even before then and writes a long letter back being like with lots of questions where he's like you need to he actually

gave notes on the reel where he's like you can see a shadow of the person using it and it's going to give it away so you know to protect your patent you should delete that from your reel. And he also is like, is there a minimum height at which it can be used? He has like lots of questions.

Yeah. And he calls it like a magic carpet, which is really cool. I think that's a really fun way to, you know, describe it. And Garrett Brown,

who invented it, does all, operates the camera for all the Steadicam shots. Like John Alcott's the DP of this movie, but, who works on other cubics. But like john alcott's the dp of this movie but um who's works

on other cubrics but like that that's all garrett brown and it just sounds really cool like i mean what you know what garrett brown says about him what really demanding lots of takes um 50 to 70 takes of you know going down a fucking hallway i mean there's that amazing people have talked about it for a million years the The Steadicam's really important. It's kind of like a character in the movie. It's so hard to talk about shit like this. No, it is. It is. There's the moment that I think is pretty directly

lifted from this, even though it looks different. You better not bring up I Think You Should Leave. In that episode of Camp Hill. No, no. In Zodiac. Yeah. It's one of the killings uh it's like the the car killing where you have that extended overhead uh shot um that i think is done entirely in cgi but fincher steals that move of like when the car turns a corner uh the camera somehow turns with the car remaining

perfectly in place in the center of the frame. Yeah. And it does make you feel like, oh, there's like some sort of uneasy, otherworldly presence. Yeah, it's like perching. Right, which I think is really taken from this, where it's like the speed at which

the camera is able to adjust every time he turns a corner and he remains perfectly centered in the frame makes you feel uneasy and the other thing is like the difference between the carpet and the wood it's that thing where when you're a kid and you're able to like let your mind run off of so little you can just start imagining where you're just like yeah oh this game of the difference of the sound right how much carpet do i've left before i hit wood and how different does the wood sound than the carpet it's like yeah you can spend six hours doing that when you're a kid and never get bored of it that

would be if i was in the mansion that's something i would be doing yeah you'd kill it i'd be riding around you break his fucking records he your dust it's also funny like i mean it was a thing and i should mention only 90s kids will understand this but watching this movie for the first time when I was in high school or whatever and going like oh the opening to Bobby's world is a reference to this that's weird it's because it's Bobby on a big wheel and yeah the opening credits of Bobby's world are Bobby on a big wheel running through his like family home and everyone like jumping out of the way and it so clearly has to be

an homage to this but you're like that's a pretty cursed thing to put in the middle of your cartoon about a little boy with a big imagination yeah he's on the big wheel

there he goes he's on the big wheel how he's fucking weird I don't know how he does yeah how he do it I don't know how he do it what are some

things in The Shining we haven't discussed yet we did discuss fair blowjob shout out to the costumer because at one point they go straight from there's that one shot of jack nicholson in the green turtleneck where he's just kind of staring blankly out the window and it's like the moment where it's like all right so he's gone crazy it's happened they cut right from that to that yellow coat that she wears and it's such a fucking amazing coat oh it's such an amazing coat so i want to just i want to throw out those two specific uh costuming choices are just great dude that whole fit like i wrote that down too it's like

it's like a yellow chore coat with, like, this beautiful embroidery on it. And then she's wearing, like, very now hip, straight kind of, like, denim jeans with, like, moccasins. That is, like, yeah, one of the best looks. The fact that you're, like, Shelley Duvall fit watch right there.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, Jack's got some cardigans, yeah. Yeah. It's also... I mean, Jack's got some cardigans, too. I was going to say, it's one of those movies where at least the three Torrance characters, anyone who walked into a bar

in Bushwick wearing any outfit they wear in this movie would be the coolest person at that bar. Even Danny. Yeah. I'm saying, even Danny.

Danny's got some fits. Right? But all three of them... The space sweater? Love that thing. I was going to... And all the weird Shelly Duvall sweaters. I'm just But all three of them, like all... The space sweater? Love that thing. I was gonna, and all the weird Shelley Duvall,

like, sweaters. I'm just like, all of these, you'd just be like, where did you find that? I want to throw out one, one shot that I made a note of

without revealing too much about myself, but feeling very comfortable with you all, that there is a great moment where, and it sort of has to do with, like,

I like how the titles of the timing become more and more frenetic because it starts out like you know the interview and then one month later and then all of a sudden it's like 8 a.m 8 a.m whatever like yeah yeah so at one point when it's like a one month later she's bringing uh breakfast up to Jack in the room. And he's like slept until 1130 and just immediately you're like fuck depressed dad. Immediately.

And there is a moment later on where Danny has to go up and get something out of the room and she's like just don't wake up. Just don't wake up your dad. He was up late. And there is just this, Danny comes into the room

and you can see Jack in the reflection of the mirror. And he has this sort of nice scene with Danny. And there was something that I liked about the mirror being there in that he's only seeing who he is jack is only seeing who he is in that moment and sort of what he's become is because his son is the mirror like only by looking at his son does he realize who he is and who he's become and it kind of leads to a nice moment between them and i just wanted to throw that out that was just something

like the fact that there was a literal mirror there. And then the sort of metaphoric figurative mirror of the child there. I don't know. I liked that. Yeah, that's good. I love that. I don't know how it would fit into like,

I think you should leave, but I like that shot where Jack Nicholson's looking out the window and the camera just kind of looks at him and you're like, Oh, this guy's going crazy. Yes. I think that's the green turtleneck shot. It's just... I was thinking of

some crazy shots. I mean, Jack Nicholson's face is just designed for the Kubrick stare. As much as he had all of his actors do that, pretty much, it's like he's just got the right dimensions. That forehead, those eyebrows.

The way his hair is. Yeah. It's moving. Yeah. It looks kind of animalistic slightly. He writes this book, but it's all just the same word over and over again. Terrible book.

Terrible book. Yeah, I wanted to say the poor fucking PAs. Yes. That must have spent fucking hours because you know Kubrick is such a psycho. Yeah, they're like, can we Xerox it? And he was like, uh, no. The spacing's wrong. And it's also like, whatever.

It's a stack of 50. Or no, let's say a stack of 200. It's not like he asked them to do 200 pages, but 100, if not 150. Do you know what I mean? Yes, yes. And like, she's going through them and they did 50 takes

and some of those pages like you can't have them. Every one of them needs to be real. They kind of look crumpled. Right. They need to be clean. Right. Oh my God.

There probably were thousands. God. Typed up. Yeah. Manually. By hand. Do you think it was manual? Well, because they look different

so they have to. Yeah. Yeah. Here's one thing I'll say about and it's I don't want to be psychologically manipulated. So I'm not asking for this,

but as like this, there was one director that I worked with who I loved working with, but was one of those people that like did a bunch of, a bunch, a bunch, a bunch of takes. And you, you do kind of disassociate.

Yeah. But what it does is allows like you almost blow something up so completely. It doesn't make sense anymore. And then it can become something else. That's the way Fincher talks about it, that his whole thing is like, it's not psychological manipulation. I'm very direct about what it is.

I like getting to the point where, you know, the line so well. Yeah. And you've gotten out of your system, any preconceived notions you had of how you would play this scene. The intent of the scene is bone deep and now suddenly you're free to just like play it any way that comes to you in the moment. And I do kind of I do kind of enjoy that. But in the same way that like it must suck for the pas to type that many things

i don't i don't i i want to balance this by saying like everybody nobody has to nobody should have to work 20 hours a day no one has to suffer like nobody should have to suffer for all of it but there is a reason there is a point at which something becomes good because you put that much work into it yeah shining is incredible and they did 70 takes for each thing right right you know what i mean the shining is beyond incredible it is like a a landmark work of its medium or whatever yeah it will always be remembered forever and ever and copied and thought about you know's like beyond what? You're like, I'll be remembered forever. And this, you know, it's this landmark film.

It is beyond whatever masterpiece level you want to reach. It's on some higher echelon where it's like, no, no, no, you've made like a thing that's just etched into the collective memory. Right.

That's hard. It's like The Shining and Assassin's Creed. Right. The top tier. It's what's so difficult about Kubrick, though, where you're like, you have so many people who try to follow his example, misunderstand, are not able to execute the same level as him. lessons from him for the wrong reasons and applying them incorrectly and then justifying the sort of difficulties that they put people through is like, well, this is what Kubrick did. Right.

I'm like Kubrick. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're not. No. Here's the thing. Boy, howdy, you are not like Kubrick. You are not.

You are not. And like, you know, it's we'll devote an entire episode to this on Patreon, but it's one of those things that I appreciate so greatly about Dr. Sleep, where I'm like, as opposed to a lot of guys who self-style themselves as like, well,

I'm a Kubrickian filmmaker. I feel like that is not Flanagan's default mode or style. I think when he needs to, he replicates the Kubrick style incredibly well in that movie without it feeling like forced pastiche.iche like it actually feels like a direct. No 100% vocation of the thing and also all stories you hear about him are like super chill collaborative low key guy that he didn't feel like I have to Kubrick the shit.

We'll talk about that movie. It's also crazy how it has to thread paying some homage to Kubrick and also like also, like, being a sequel to a book that is, like, I hate the movie The Shining. Right. You know, like, Stephen King's like, I'm gonna write a movie, a sequel to The Shining,

and boy, do I not bring up that fucking movie. That's where I go, like, you almost just have to automatically give that movie a masterpiece stamp just for doing both things at the same time.

But that's also when it came out why I think everyone was like, what? What is this? How do I deal with this? Right. You cast someone else as Jack Nicholson, but it looks like Jack Nicholson. Like what what is this how do i deal with this right uh you cast someone else as jack nicholson but it looks like jack like what is this like anyway we'll talk about it later

uh what do you guys think about the scene where he goes into room 237 he sees a naked lady and she's all sexy but then she looks scared well but even you talk about the fucking kubrick thing it's like the strings are swelling her walk is too slow i'm never turned on by this. This is the least I've ever liked seeing a naked lady on screen. Oh, I say hachi machi. No, see, I don't. Because I'm just, it's the fucking, the weird shining rhythms where it's like, this feels wrong. It feels wrong. And also, again, it's the, I've got the movie queued up.

I'm just looking at things right now. See, when you show me a still image like that, I'm like, oh yeah, boobs, love them. But I'm watching the movie. I was trying to say, well, I mean, I think you're right. But it's also, it's the framing of it where you're like, you almost feel like he's in like a death chamber or something. Like, there's just something really frightening about the symmetry of it. But also, her walk is so fucking slow.

You're like, what's wrong? If I walk into a hotel room that's abandoned, and I see a naked lady, I'll tell you what I'd do. Walk slowly towards her and give her a kiss. David! You just give her a little... Good behavior, right? David, you're a bad man.

That's true. But no, I might be like, one, there's also the impulse to be like, oh, I'm sorry, and leave.

But also, two, like the, oh, no one's in this hotel. You're a ghost. Right. Goodbye.

And she like very quickly turns into Henrietta from Evil Dead 2. Yeah, and she's like, eh. Another thing about that scene is that my memory of it. Yeah.

Is that they went to the room five times. Yeah. And we saw that naked lady eight times. And the old, scary, crazy woman that she becomes is kind of always around. It's the same thing. There's so much less of the twins than you remember there yes there's so much less of everything and not only that they don't matter obviously they right they matter but it's not like at the end jacks has to fight the twins and the

lady and and like or like meet them all again or they all come together and it's like and here's what happened here it's like yeah no no just a crazy hotel filled with ghosts. Right. All kinds of shit happened here. You know what, you know what has no bearing on the movie? A bunch of blood coming out of the elevators. Oh, that's just so good too. It's just fucking scary. Right.

No, that's actually, it's a thing that happened. A bunch of blood checked into the hotel and lived there for a while. It's just actually. There was a blood convention. Right, exactly. It was,

it had lost its key and had gone all the way up to the room. It's like it's spirited away when a river shows up. They're like, fuck this year. The blood is coming. This is going to be a nightmare. They were trying to get to room 24AB,

conference room 24AB, which is the guest speaker. Can we have him not? His money's good, okay? The blood guy pays. It's blood money. Well, sure. Yeah, what else do you expect him to have?

I hope you're wearing red pants. You're going to hide all that blood money in your pocket. They only did three shots of the blood. That is one of those things where everyone's like, that's one of the ones where Kubrick didn't actually fuck us. He showed a little compassion to the blood where he's like, it might be tough for them to do multiple takes. Here's one thing that I'll say.

I wish they had bolted down that one chair. Oh, that moves around? You don't like it might be tough for them to do multiple takes here's one thing that i'll say i wish they had bolted down that one chair oh that moves around you don't like it okay i i think that it was like i kind of like it just because it makes it feel natural and so or mistaken i don't know i like that okay i like that it breaks the cube brick like everything control yeah like totally okay yeah i don't know i just i just wanted to i know i know what you mean that every time you watch the shot you're like it's funny that the chair moves yeah what then what do you want to say we're talking about some dang ghosts right we're framing it it's like this is just a story about ghosts in a hotel and i think we need to shout out to or just mention that the hotel in itself is kind of a character kind of alive

yeah so you're saying the hotel is a character in the movie kind of like new york is a character in sex in the city or whatever okay yeah sure sure yeah should have been the billing nicholson devol hotel hotel hotel played by hotel yeah which is kind of the vibe of dr sleep like at the end the third act they're like and you missed him. He's here. It's what? The Timberline Lodge, correct? Yes. Which is in Oregon.

It's just the outside. All the inside is just sets, and it's mostly based on the Awani Hotel in Yosemite. It's also just something about the hotel where every... It doesn't feel congruous. There's a massive gold room, and then there's a you know like the big lobby that feels a little more like native american and has like kind of like a totally different aesthetic and then like the bathroom is all red and white and it looks like a futuristic bathroom in a way like every room feels a little which i love like well it is that

weird thing like most uh movies you hear about like, oh, the exterior was one place. This was shot in a set. This was shot here. Like the rooms are piecemeal constructed from different places. If it's an office building, if it's a home, whatever it is, right? Where you're like, oh, we're all Tannenbaums. Each of those rooms was somewhere in an entirely different part of town. Because he found this bedroom looks right, but it's in a different building or whatever.

And usually magic and movies, you accept it all in your head it all threads together and this is almost like making the most out of like no these things wouldn't fit together the the transitions between room to room hallway to hallway or whatever it's like there's too much going on in each individual space and it's hard to place them all as part of one continuous structure in your head. There's a teddy bear blowjob happening. There was a teddy bear blowjob. We haven't talked about that enough. How do we feel about all those ghosts at the end? Fucking love it.

Wait, was that always in the original movie? All of those were? Really? Yeah. It was something that I had weirdly erased from my mind. You don't remember Teddy Bear Blowjob? I don't remember the head wound guy because the thing about him that guy's the thing about him that's interesting is that it's wendy who sees him and of course like

jack is obviously the one who's mostly seeing all this stuff and so when wendy sees him you do have this sense of like it's all kind of bleeding out right now like they're all coming out because like shit's going down yeah man's dead maybe scatman dying they're like coming out because like shit's going down and Scatman's dead. Maybe Scatman dying and they're like, all right. But like, Wendy sees him, it's weird

and he's just like, which I love. Love that guy. She sees all of those ghosts at the end. Yeah, right. It's just like,

only right at the end is she starting to see him too, I feel like, right? But to Ben's point. Skeletons in the cobweb is like, fucking, are you afraid of the dark i wasn't i

will like you're looking at me for backup and i will back you up on this a little bit then i think that maybe the skin who am i to say anything against stanley no i kind of agree with you in that i'm sorry i'm wrong i think those skeletons maybe are a little bit bit like, we don't really have a lot of money left. Who are you to say? It's supposed to be three months. Who are you to say? This is an expert opinion coming from the 10th billed lead of Goosebumps. You have all the.

Tim, are you in Goosebumps? I am. Oh my God, I got to see that movie. Right, you're one of the cops who doesn't take anything seriously, right? Don't bother me with these Goosebumps kids. I got coffee to drink. That was one of my famous lines. Don't bother me with these goosebumps kids i got coffee that was one of my famous lines yes don't bother me with these goosebumps kids yeah hey kids don't bother me times that i felt um like kind of famous was one of the kids at my at my kids daycare

yeah it was like uh was like hey are you in goosebumps and i was like that movie's kind of spooky for somebody your age and they were like yeah but i'm tough and i was like, was like, hey, are you in Goosebumps? And I was like, that movie's kind of spooky for somebody your age. And they were like, yeah, but I'm tough. And I was like, all right. Yeah, cool. Fucking rad. You won over

the toughest kid in Europe. Did you read all the Goosebumps or it's preschool? Did you read any Goosebumps? How deep did you go on research? I was, I think about a year too old for Goosebumps.

Yes. In the same way that I was a couple years too young for 90210. I was in that very weird. You were like a teenager or whatever. And it was sort of like, yeah, it was like,

it's a little too young for me. I was like obsessed with goosebumps. Yeah. Were you? Are you kidding me? I love goosebumps. But I think that's one of the things that I brought to the production is that I just didn't, I was kind of like the scatman Crothers of the Goosebumps set.

You know what I mean? I wasn't there paying homage to the old masters. You're like, I'm here to do my own work. I think the thing about doing my own work. I'll say this. I love that she goes into the lobby and it's suddenly covered in cobwebs. That's cool. The skeletons, maybe it's the only skeletons.

It's the only like Hat on a hat thing Of like I was already creeped out Sure And this is almost Almost out of the monsters Or whatever

Like It's not really But like It's one of those images In The Shining That whenever I rewatch the movie I'm like Oh right

Skeleton room Yeah I forgot about that one It's a little bit like The haunted houses That I would go to Like in a small town In Maine when they'd be like, well, what does this room have? Ooh, some skeletons. And then it's just one skeleton that heads towards you.

Yeah. To Ben's point, though, it just reminded me. He asked if the bear blowjob was always in the movie. The two notable sort of cuts of this film. Yes, go on. There was the original ending that he cut out pretty quickly, but that did screen originally, right? Where there was sort of the epilogue.

There's like an explanation. Wendy and Danny. It's sort of the end of Psycho. Which I love the end of Psycho and I defend it, but I think Kubrick was kind of correctly like, they don't need this. Wendy and Danny in the hospital and the guy. The guy's like, your husband froze to death or whatever but we never found the body how weird

right yeah and it was like oh don't explicitly get into did this happen or not shit they were like it's better to leave it all elusive there's also something around a scrapbook of photos that was also something that was shot but got cut out that's is you see it in the final cut still on his desk yes it's a photo album uh that he discovers sort of midway into the movie that shows a picture of him that shows that right of right yes it's it's um it's in the book but uh yeah they they whatever i think hubert kept erring on the side of, like, no explanation. Yeah. Like, wait, like, the less the better.

Like, it has to be for so long. Because he's basically, like, until the door, the meat locker door opens and he comes out, you can still be like, this is all in his head. Right. Yeah. That's when you have to be like, well, okay. Like, you know, something supernatural opened that door. Yeah.

But he loves that. And David wouldn't understand this, but the other thing is, in the UK, the movie was not playing well, and Kubrick himself cut 30 minutes out of it. He cut it, like, way down. He cut it for, like, two hours. And some people prefer that cut.

Yeah. Which I've never seen. Not me. But it is an interesting thing. It was, like've never seen. Not me. Um, but it is an interesting, it was like he himself at the same time was like, well,

I want the movie to play well. You know, it wasn't like a, a sort of forced studio concession. And he just has a cut that just like, gets to the point faster. That some people swear by.

Um, Ready Player One, they, they go to the hotel. They have a fun sequence in there. Yeah, that's bizarre. I really love that sequence. One of these days, you now force me to fucking rewatch this movie at some point.

Huge fan of that movie. And obviously, Kubrick and Spielberg are very close. Sure. He's like, meh. They're doing a TV show called Overlook. Oh, yeah. Maybe that'll never happen. But one of those classic happen, but, like, one of those, like, classic HBO announces,

like, over, you know, Hotel Origins, you know, get pumped, 10 episodes. Is Mark Romanek... One hour a plot. Is Mark Romanek doing it, or was he previously attached to do some version?

Mark Romanek? Yeah. Who so badly wants to be Kubrick. No, he... It's, like, a doomed prod. It's, like, one of his many, like... Right. It was going to be called The. No, he... It's like a doomed prod. It's like one of his many, like... Right. It was going to be called

The Overlook Hotel. Right. This is now a different thing. Doesn't sound kind of cool, but... What's the name of Scatman's character again? Scatman's character in The Shining?

Yes. The character that he plays? Yes. Oh, Halloran. Dick Halloran. So that's the other thing. When they were making Doctor Sleep and they were so bullish on,

like, this is going to be a fucking blockbuster, they had Flanagan write a Halloran movie. Oh, Jesus. Because they were making doctor sleep and they were so bullish on like this is gonna be a fucking blockbuster they had flanagan write a hollering movie oh because they were like fucking shining expanded universe let's do all of this and then the second the movie bombed they were like shelf um but but another thing that's probably better left unsaid i mean i i feel like it it always anytime they would sort of talk about doing any Shining follow-up it was like, hubris, don't do it, you're gonna fail. And Doctor Sleep does it so well. It does it so well.

And bombed and was only sort of half well received when it came out where I'm like, don't do it. You're never gonna do it better than this and this didn't even work. At the time. I think that All Work and No Play make like, that would be a really great movie. Do you know what I mean? Oh, just adapt the book. I think that All Work and No Play make John, like that would be a really great movie. Do you know what I mean?

Oh, just adapt the book. Yeah. Yeah. Come on. Just take that. Yeah. Straight from the source. Hollywood announces IP, great IP.

It's in the movie. Yeah. Sean Anders. Everyone loves the movie. It's a family comedy. It's a family comedy. Yeah. Right.

What do you guys make of the closing shot where where Jack Nicholson's in the picture but it's from a long ago I'm just trying to do the thing where I like reference movements in the shining that

are famous now it's funny that people like talk about that being so elusive and I still find like the ending of 2001 confusing and have a hard time even coming

up with a thesis in my head that like tracks whereas 2001 is just like man this shit's just gonna keep on going baby no it's just ending of 2001 confusing and have a hard time even coming up with a thesis in my head that like tracks. The ending of 2001 is just like, man, this shit's just gonna keep on going, baby. Here's some shit. The ball keeps rolling. What can I tell you? Spoilers. For an episode we've already recorded

by this point, even though we have in real life. The ending of this, I'm just like, oh, it's sort of like that's where everyone's cursed to. It's not like, oh, he was literally there before. No, he was literally there before. That's what's sort of like that's where everyone's cursed to yeah it's not like oh he was literally there before he was literally there before that's what's weird about kubrick's rejection of of the idea of hell or whatever where i'm just like that night is weirdly the frozen in time night that repeats itself in a continuum in this hotel it's the cursed night and if you become a victim to

this hotel you're like stuck there right that's how I take it that's how I take it too but maybe he was at the July 4th ball in 1921 or whatever maybe he's a time travel maybe he's a quantum leaper I read something that was actually no he can't be a quantum leaper because in the picture he would appear as the

person that he left him to so that theory is fucking stupid does not apply just trying to think of anything else did I mention the little girls who say come play with me creepy big wheel come on is there anything like blood elevator it's just funny red rum red rum we

talked about red rum crash zooms are just always so effective with that fucking Wendy Carlos music is so scary yeah good you know I don't know it's a Crash zooms are just always so effective with that fucking Wendy Carlos music. It's so scary. Yeah. It's good. Yeah, Wendy Carlos rules. You know. Yeah. I don't know.

It's a good movie. It's one of my favorite movies ever. I watch it all the time. If I'm ever, like, on vacation in, like, the winter in, like, Vermont. Like, if I'm in some kind of cozy lodge. Which one of my best friends has a little ski house and like a little ski lodge in Vermont.

Humble Bregg. I mean, it's very humble. So, yes. The humblest of Breggs. We always are like, six hours into getting there,

we're like, all right. Really? That's like when I least want to watch The Shining. I want to watch it. Although, I will say,

I mean, he's always been a big Shining, but he's not a, you know, whatever, cinephile or whatever. And then one time he was like, you know, Kubrick, I've seen X, Y, and Z. And I was like, have you ever seen Barry Lyndon?

He was like, no. And I was like, I'm putting it on. And like 10 minutes later, he was like, what the fuck is this? And then I was like, don't worry. And we watched it. And then like he watched like 10 more times. Yeah. That was just a nice memory.

Yeah. He just kept texting me being like, I can't stop watching that movie. Like that's, you know, that's watching that movie Have you guys done 2001 yet? No I did it about 21 years ago I had a good time I was 15 years old I saw Shrek four times Lord of the Rings came out that year

It was a sophomore Oops I did it again Oops I did it again, Oops, I did it again. Is that 2001? Yeah, right. Because Hit Me Baby One More Time is 99. Oops, I Did It Again is 2000. Fuck.

Flat on your face. Fuck. Lucky? Yeah, lucky. Or I'm a slave for you. I'm a slave for you. Is 01? Is 01.

I would have bet any amount of money that was two or three. It's Baby One More Time, 99. Oops, 2000. Britney, which is the one with Emma Slanky, which is kind of like a relaunch, is 2001. It was that brief. Right. Because, wow, because In the Zone is 2003.

She took a break. Yeah. Her greatest hits are 04. She's been a pop singer for five years. It's incredible. All right. So quickly, I'll just share this. This is an entertainment weekly article with

johnson the producer and writer uh is quoted dying job uh there is an explanation for the photo though it's a bit strange and paradoxical because it's both real and unreal the idea that jack was always at the hotel in some earlier incarnation jack had somehow been the creature of the hotel through reincarnation. Right. It's like there's always gonna be a, but that to me is just,

that's the poetry of it. It's like there'll always be some fucking person being tortured by this place. Right. Right. Like he's not, he's Grady,

but he's also not Grady and yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And like that's why I like that Grady, when you meet,

you're like, you imagine a most feral guy because you hear like, oh my God, he like chopped up his kids and shot himself. And then he's like a posh butler type yeah like you know that's crew cool that's creepy yeah um yeah i don't know uh yeah good movie b plus yeah i think good two out of two knives out of ten i already gave my great scary movie yeah no i love it i feel like you don't

love it as much as i do i feel like you've never been a Shining guy. No, I mean, you know, I'm less of a Cooper. You're more of a Shining Time station. Well, yeah, that's my vibe. I mean. But I feel like I'm less of a Cooper guy than most, but this is at the very top tier for me, even still. I think I like this movie a hell of a lot.

I think I didn't realize how much you loved it, the scale at which you loved it. It's one of my faves yeah no but I I'm a I'm a big ass fan of this movie this is near the top for me all right you want to do a box office game Tim is there anything else in your notes come on we're winding down it's been a long uh just run down a couple please just uh just because you brought your lap I mean you flew in to do this podcast and the go-kart thing on your laptop and brought your laptop in so you could consult your notes. Oh, yeah.

Absolutely. Guys, I'm a guest here. I wanted to be a good guest in your home. Ben's home. Ben's home. It's been amazing. Axe was a bit intense, but it's fine. We don't need to talk about it more. Don't question Tim's method. Whatever it takes to get there. Whatever it takes me to get there, it's kind of like a dinky

job, and I need to... It's justified. It's justified. It's justified. All's fair in art. So. There are no crimes. I would say that there are like a couple things just going along with what I was really noticing was that that sort of like the domestic violence thing is the Jack's manipulation, especially when he's in the freezer or in the, in the dry goods. When he's saying like, you in the, in the dry goods. Like I, you really hurt me.

It's just like that. He, yeah, it does a really good job of like, he tries all the tricks to get like that sort of tracks with that thing. And also the fact that even as he's coming at her with like, you know, I just, I just want to go back to my room. I just just gonna go back to my room i just want to go

back to my like she's like i just want to think a little while whatever that is like she is still trying to make it all okay and the only reason that he gets hit in the head with the bat is because she kind of accidentally brushes his hand with the bat right you know what i mean it's not like a i'm gonna take this moment to take control of this it's a oh fuck i hit him a little bit which means now he's gonna kill me unless i do this right and i just thought that part of it was incredible rarely directly attacks him when she hits him with a knife later that's a mistake too, basically. She's just kind of like flailing with it.

She mostly just wants to get away from him. They kill him by running away from him. Yeah. He dies in the maze. Like, it's like, you know, again, you know, you could put Snow on trial. We could, but I don't think she killed him.

We could and we should. Yeah, we should. And also like that cut to him being frozen, incredible. I think that was generally all the stuff that I have from my notes. Yeah, that cut. I forgot how quickly they go from like him sort of like lurching through the maze to just hard cut.

He froze. Yeah. The Simpsons. I really. That is the only problem. I had seen that episode like 50 times before. I feel like I'd seen so many parodies of different elements of this. The Simpsons one is.

Oh, good. Yeah. All work and no play makes Homer something something. Go crazy. Don't mind if I do! It always gets me. The shinnen. So fucking funny.

One thing that I love about movies like this is that no matter how many times they've been parodied, no matter how many times they've been ate... You can't hurt it. The power is rarely still there. No matter how many times they tried to makeodied, no matter how many times they've been ate. You can't hurt it. The power is rarely still there. No matter how many times they tried to make a sequel, you know, a hundred percent bullet. No matter how many times some asshole comes on a podcast and says,

this is just like Tim Robinson. Yeah. It will never put a dent in how good and scary that movie is from the first moment to the very end. And the bones are their money. David, I. Bones are their money. Bones are their money david i bones are their money

man if you found a big old skeleton room you'd be rich david yes i i saw i was not trying to look up box office oh sure but i did just see that like most of the kubrick movies were kind of platformed that they were like well this is this heady filmmaker you have to build like slowly the interest in this film. This movie was like 10 theaters opening weekend and then like a thousand. Like they were like,

this is a commercial. This played more as, of course, it was famously nominated for two Razzies and got like mixed-ish reviews at the time. I feel like the Harvard Lampoon also like dubbed this

the worst movie of the year. Like a lot of people thought they were smarter than this film. People never behave that way. What are you talking about um i just real quick one more thing yeah we've been going a long time i'm very sorry yeah no in that scene right before she hits him with the bat he's gone crazy danny's been strangled by a ghost and she says i want to talk to you. And he says, what do you want to talk about? Which is so funny and so scary. Anyway, that's

it. The thing I think you're trying to reference Griff is this movie came out platform against the wide release of another very famous movie. The most successful movie of the year. The Empire Strikes Back. Which I was surprised that this was a like Memorial Day weekend. Correct. That's exactly when it is right

release i just would have assumed this movie came out in the fall or winter you would you would think you'd want to put this out in the winter it's set in the winter yeah famously uh empire strikes back also a snowy movie but no it's for people you know fanning themselves it was a very go to a cool air condition very snowy may at the at the cinemas that year. So number one is The Empire Strikes Back. New this week. Luke, I am your father. Yep. Spoiler alert.

Number two is a horror film. And I just, it didn't say in the episode description it would have spoilers for Empire Strikes Back. Oh, sorry.

I wouldn't have listened to the episode if I knew they were just going to spoil other movies. Okay. Did Truman Capote listen to it? I don't know. I the episode if I knew they were just going to spoil other movies. Okay. Did Truman Capote listen to it? I don't know.

I found the film distasteful. Number two is a horror film. I cut open a tauntaun. We actually mentioned this, you know, this franchise at the top. A slasher film. Is it the first Friday the 13th? Sure is. Wow.

First Friday the 13th. You're here to think about them. Isn't that crazy? Coexisting theaters at the same time So two very different Yeah Things right alongside each other The Shining

Those These two movies Friday the 13th and The Shining Opened up the same week? No Or they were just playing Friday the 13th had opened Oh maybe

Two weeks ago or whatever Like it's been around Empire and Shining are new this week Wow Friday the 13th just opened and uh yeah you could could bounce from you know star wars over to jason over to the same where you're like those movies can't coexist one of them must have flopped how could audiences want both of them at the same time it's bizarre that's like no both of these work this was a very

solid opposite and this is like you know one of the true hits of kubrick's career obviously like spartacus is the biggest but like this was a big ass hit in 2001 but like this is big um shining opening limited number three number four is a movie i've never heard of i'm gonna have to look it up let's see 1989 dave's never heard of that i've never heard of it. It's a teen comedy. Okay. Depicting crass and mischievous antics. Screwballs? Practical jokes. A 1950s era car club.

This looks like a kind of American graffiti knockoff. Mischief? Sorry? Mischief? Is there mischief in the movie? I'm throwing out titles of movies I know

that are like this. Oh, it's not mischief. Okay. I will say this film stars an actor who you know personally. Who I know personally? Tim Simons? No. Actor who I know? Oh like this. It's not Mischief. I will say this film stars an actor who you know personally. Who I know personally? Tim Simons?

No. Actor who I know? Oh, oh, oh, oh. Is it the Jack Earl Haley? Nope. No? Fuck. Okay, when I say you know him personally, I mean you've watched a lot of his television show

with him on the internet. What? How many people have you done that with? How many people have you live streamed watching their TV show with them? Robert Wool's in it. Is it Hollywood Nights? It's the Hollywood Nights.

Robert Wool, Tony Danza, Michelle Pfeiffer, Fran Drescher. His character's name in that movie is like Pangborn Krillhorn or something. U-Bomb Turk. Yeah. What kind of a fucking name is that? It's one of the great movie character names. That was like an Animal House runoff. But it's like set in the 50s.

So I guess it's got like... Animal House is set in the 60s? Actually, this is also set in the 60s. So there you go. Yeah. So total Animal House. But yeah, Robert Wall's

playing like the Bluto type character. It was incredibly weird. Never met Robert Wall. Right. You've only... That's why I did have to correct where I'm like,

you're not like Jackie O'Haley type friends where you actually work together. No, I thought it was losing it, maybe, which Jackie or Haley is in. Yeah, okay, anyway. Number four at the box office is The Hollywood Knights. Number five at the box office is the film version

of a sort of cult TV show of the moment. So it's a continuation of the show having been on air or is it much later? It's. Is it the nude bomb? No. I'm sorry. The show had just gone off the air. Okay.

Okay. But it's like not a narrative show. It's like a variety show. This is one of the famously awful movies. It's the gong show movie. The gong show movie. Yeah. Okay.

Chuck Beres is the gong show movie, which was like... The gong show movie? I think it was like... Remember how you used to watch the gong show and you'd go, I wish this thing had more plot. I wish there was a real strong narrative backbone to this. Was one of those things where it was like taken out of theaters immediately, basically. It was so bad. Is it the plot that's like a mystery happening on the set of the gong show

or whatever I don't know sounds bad to me how did he get the paper bag on his head that's the question you've also got it's an unknown comic

a Walter Hill western called the long riders I feel like we've mentioned this one before it's got all three caridines in it isn't that the one that has like

but then it also has like both quades it has both quades both guests yes Christopher and Nicholas and both keeches right James Stacey It has like But then it also has like Both Quades It has both Quades Both guests Yes Christopher and Nicholas And both Keaches Right

James Stacey It's the brothers movie Sounds stupid But I don't know I kind of want to check it out Because of Walter Hill You've got Tom Horn What is that?

No idea That is another western A Steve McQueen Old Steve McQueen Wow Like late in life. He probably died just a couple years ago. He died that year, that 1980.

You've got The Nude Bomb, which is, that's the Get Smart movie, right? I fucking just guessed it. You just guessed it. Like, earlier, you mean. I guessed it for number five when you said it was a TV. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The Nude Bomb.

I feel like it came, we must have done a movie around here recently, because I feel like we talked about The Nude Bomb, didn't we? I'm always talking about the nude bomb have you seen the nude bomb because the nude bomb is like 10 years later right the nude bomb it's the nude bomb it's the get smart movie but it's

you know get smart and it was like 12 years after the show had gone off the air and it was a huge bomb and Hollywood's takeaway was like never put the word bomb in the title that means the movie will bomb. Truly, that was their... Well, or at least like the fucking press will leap at it.

Like, I'll put it on all their headlines. Number nine is all that jazz. Maybe that's when the new bomb came out. Oh, sure. Right. And then number 10 is Coal Miner's Daughter, which I also feel like

we mentioned on that episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That episode had Lin-Manuel Miranda on it. Yeah, it's pretty wild. Pretty cool. This whole time, I've just been thinking that if I can't imagine you at the breakfast table

with your father, the box office game hits different. Oh, sure. You know what I mean? It lashes some emotion if I can't imagine you really trying to guess with your dad. David's a stand-in for your father. No, no, no. In many ways. Absolutely. No, because

it is, with things like this, I'm like, what are other movies we've covered from this year when I've looked at box office? It's like remembering triangulating versus... What do we think

of the Starship Troopers steal? I think it's pretty good. Pretty cool. You see this, Tim? Pretty cool. So I have the previous steal they put out for Starship Troopers

that was sort of like the Nazi propaganda poster. Right. Which I liked. And I'm looking at this and I'm questioning are they going to get me to fucking swap steels?

Am I going to upgrade? Because it's not a new edition. Anytime I do that now, I just give it to Emma Stefanski who lives near me. Yeah. Every time I see her, I'm like,

I got like six more DVDs that I've viewed. Sure. I have offered this service to you guys. Just text me and I'll say don't spend your money you're offering

the opposite service we don't want to do that don't buy the thing in the first don't do it you don't need this Emma gives me the other thing

which is like sure I'll take Interstellar off your hands if you're upgrading Ben wants us to text him and say should I upgrade to the new Steel and then we'll go

no and you shouldn't have bought the last one you need go outside you never should have bought the last one you bought. Go outside. You never should have bought an edition of this movie, period. I'm so hungry. I am too.

We gotta get sandwiches. Tim. What a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. You gotta come back. In my opinion. In my opinion. IMO.

I'm HL. You gotta come back. You're the best in the best. Thank you for having me. You guys are great. Is there anything you want to come back you're the best not best thank you for having me you guys are great is there anything you want to plug I know you've been doing the V podcast right yet no I don't want to plug anything great

perfect okay fine don't plug anything you don't even want to plug goosebumps come on goosebumps fun for the whole feel I would say I'll fucking plug I'll plug I don't know fucking double indemnity i just watched double indemnity a couple nights ago it's fucking great go watch that can i just say you do have such a fucking cool career like i i do think when i look at your filmography you've been able to do such different stuff like both in terms of you working with like very cool

first-time filmmakers having like small parts and like fucking inherent vice and shit you know like you're like you're building one of those like ideal random roles careers i you know which is like my favorite kind of acting career where it's just like different sizes different projects different genres budget levels working with really interesting different people i've i have come into a thing where like, all I want is to have anything that resembles the careers of people that I admire, which are like, like when it comes down to it,

I think Roy Schneider is sort of quickly becoming my favorite movie star. Yeah. And Steve Buscemi and like those, like those guys, like those are the guys that I've always loved. And so I don't know anything that gets me

close to anything. I think you're doing it. Those guys do. I think you're doing it. All right. Well, thank you. You're very flattering. Well, thank you

for doing this podcast. Yeah. And thank you all for listening. Yeah. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to

Marie Barty for our social media and helping to put the show together. Joe Bowen, Pat Reynolds for our artwork, AJ McKeon, Alex Barron for our social media and helping to put the show together. Joe Bowen, Pat Reynolds for our artwork. AJ McKeon, Alex Barron for our editing. JJ Birch for our research.

Go to blankcheckpod.com for links to some real nerdy shit, including our Patreon page where we're doing James Bond, Roger Moore commentaries. And we'll do the Dr. Sleep episode. Tune in next week for Full Metal Jacket, seven-year break in between movies. Who's going to be the guest on that one? I don't know. We have no idea. That's the end of this episode. And as always, I'm checking my notes here.

I believe the coffee drop made the theatrical cut of Draft Day. I have to tell you it did not, Griff. I'm so sorry. I'm double-checking my notes here. It turns out the coffee drop did not make the final cut of Draft. God damn it. Theatrical.