Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Sugarland Express with Esther Zuckerman

Episode Date: January 12, 2025

Young whippersnapper Steven Spielberg continues his run of dusty, road-centric films with 1974’s THE SUGARLAND EXPRESS, and we’re along for the (surprisingly chill) ride. Writer Esther Zuckerman joins us to discuss the cinematic persona of Goldie Hawn, William Atherton’s strange period of leading-man roles, the harmonica stylings of Belgian jazz legend Toots Thielemans, and Spielberg’s brief but fruitful collaboration with cinematographer Vilmos Zsigmond. Note - we recorded this episode a few months in advance. We no longer endorse the whole Hawk Tuah thing. Buy Esther's Book The Box Office Game is Sponsored by Regal Cinemas: Sign up for Regal Unlimited today and get 10% off your 3 month subscription when using code BLANKCHECK Sign up for Check Book, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter, Instagram, Threads and Facebook!  Buy some real nerdy merch Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit or Discord For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Blackjack with Griffin and David Blackjack with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blackjack The true story of a podcast who took on all of Texas in almost one. Oh. Okay, so I found three different posters for this movie. All of them have very weird tag lines. This was a movie no one knew how to sell. You can tell by when you look at the three posters where you're like, ah, this is three

attempts at getting it across. Let me recite the three at bats. The one unifying element is all of them were like Goldie Hawn picture. Big face, big Goldie please. We have one undeniable movie star, a Academy Award winning movie star. But the one you're quoting from this one, it looks like she's just having a ball.

She's on the poster twice. Yes, she's having a way more fun. She's just smiling. Her giant smiling painted face, directly below it, her holding a shotgun. The true story of a girl who took on all of Texas and almost won, okay?

Then there's this one, which is my favorite graphic poster. That's the poster I think of. I think it's the best image. With the teddy bear. Right, and her smile in that is a little more demented in a way that comes closer representing the film where it's like this is a woman on edge. The tagline is, a girl with a great following.

Every cop in the state was after her. Everybody else was behind her. And then the third poster I found, the tagline is, this true but incredible event happened in Texas in 1969. And it's just big Goldie Hawn shotgun, Goldie Hawn and the Sugar Land Express. That's definitely not like Obviously, everyone's always made fun of like based on a true story being a selling point

But like based on a true story supposed to come after your tag, correct? It can't just be like this happened and I'm like, okay, what happened? Goldie Hawn. Yeah, and there were cars? Yeah. You won't believe it! She had a gun? It's just like the first two taglines almost tell this like something about Mary. Right, it's like everyone's after Goldie. A whole line of police cops. Like, this is a hard movie to sell,

but I can understand how it was weirdly received at the time, especially if you're like expecting just a Goldie Hawn vehicle. I understand, of course, why they were like, let's sell this as a Goldie Hawn vehicle, not as an ensemble piece, which is what it is. As you're saying, Goldie Hawn was an Oscar-winning star. A William Atherton vehicle. We got Atherton! We're going to talk about Atherton.

We will! But this Goldie is five years past her Oscar win like she's like The big star Lee and post Oscar win era. What does she win for? Cactus flower Walter Massow Ingrid Bergman cactus flower introducing Goldie Hawn as Tony cactus flower. Have you guys seen it? I've never seen it. I write about it in yes in your book as Tony. Cactus Flower, have you guys seen it? I've never seen it.

I write about it in Mabuh. Yes, in your book, which we'll talk about. Cactus Flower is incredibly charming. It's really cute. And she's good in it. She plays a girl who's in love with Walter Mathau. Walter Mathau is this, is a fuddy duddy dentist.

Ingrid Bergman, who fucking rocks in it. Really. It's so funny. Is like his shrinking violet, you know, who really is persistent. She had done Laughin' and that was her first real movie. I'm saying Ingrid Bergman? No, I'm sorry. Of course it was the main cast member on Laughin'.

And of course, her first film was Cactus Flower. Everything else, she was uncredited. Casablanca, uncredited. And Goldie is like this hippie. She's a hippie. She won an Oscar for playing the first hippie in a movie. It's really how it felt. Who like says she's gonna hippie. She won an Oscar for playing the first hippie in a movie. It's really how it felt. Who, like, says she's gonna kill herself. So Walter Mathau decides to tell her that he'll marry her, but he has to get divorced

from his wife first, but he doesn't have a wife. So then he asks Ingrid Bergman to, like, pretend to be his wife. And then obviously, like, he and Ingrid Bergman fall in love. And then there's this other young hottie who Goldie falls in love with. It is it is an Americanized modernized adaptation of a French farce stage play. And then it's one of those movies you watch it and then someone's like, based on French farce, you're like, oh, okay. Okay.

Decades later, it was remade by Adam Sandler and Dennis Dugan as just go with it. Yes Same basic in which Brooklyn Decker plays the Goldie Honour. Right? I mean again and then plays the Isabella Rossellini or Isabella Rossellini senior have gotten Rossellini to play they should have that would have been good We're talkingelle Rossellini senior? They should have gotten Rossellini to play. They should have. That would have been good. We were talking about Rossellini right before the first... Is Sandler the Mafowl of his time? Kind of. In his hand doggy. Kind of. Yeah. Different styles in a way, but like, yeah.

If Sandler announced tomorrow he was doing a Pelham 123 style... Oh, that would rule. That would be so good. Well, because we like Sandler in New York mode. doing a pillum one two three style Because we like sandler in New York mode we all experience that the thought of that we just like him to be rumbled and New York I'm saying sailor in a shitty suit Eating a stale hot dog looking hungover Just going Well like math now andactus Flower isn't rumpled. He's playing, like, it's like when you watch Mad Men, and you're like, these kind of chubby guys with glasses

would, like, pull babes, and it's like, yeah, man, New York in the 60s. Like, you know? And that's Mathow. The pan line I love is that, like, the 70s were such a weird time for movies that your action films would be like, only one guy can stop this, and the camera pans over to Walter Mato in a crumpled suit eating a stale hot dog. It's so true, but that's what she won her Oscar for. And if I'm not wrong, she's only had one nom apart from that.

Private Benjamin. She got nominated for Private Benjamin, right? But is that it? Yes. Yes, let's find out. But she, laughing starts the year Yes, let's find out. But she, Laughin starts the year before Cactus Flower comes out. This is a time when actors,

and look, this is what we're talking about on early Spielberg, transitioning from TV to film was difficult, and she's transitioning from a sketch show to film, and then her first movie she wins an Oscar, and then her follow-up movies are there's a girl in my soup I have not seen great great title dollar sign yeah dollar sign which I want to make some movie called dollar known as dollars Warren Beatty and Goldie Hawn and dollars it's a that's a that's a

bank robbery movie where she plays a lady of the night. Butterflies are free. Yeah. And then this. Butterflies are free was a big drama that went on Oscar itself, but not for Goldie Hawn. But like she was undeniably a movie star and yeah, it does feel like in that first couple of years, she hasn't quite figured out how she works as a leading lady yet. Definitely hasn't and I think it takes her another five years. Until Private Benjamin.

I think basically until Private Benjamin. Like, Val Play was a hit, right? Yeah. So that, you know, with Chevy. I think that starts the transition. Obviously, Shampooshee's amazing in it, but that's about, the movie's about this guy, and he's like hot or something

She made a movie called lovers and liars. That's an Italian movie So yeah, and then I feel like private Benjamin and then she has her whole 80s is like a pretty reliable sort of comedy movie star thing. Yeah, right. Whereas in the 70s she's still like I mean it's what's fascinating about this is this is kind of an odd Choice for her like it's not's fascinating about this is this is kind of an odd choice for her. Like, it's not an obvious movie star part. She's well cast, though. She's great in it. Yeah, she's, would we all agree that Goldie Hawn good

in the Sugarland Express? Yeah. It's so funny, actually, just sort of like looking at her, you know, filmography. It's so, she hasn't made like all that many movies. She's a weird movie star because she is an icon. I would say a four decade icon. 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. She is at the top of the heap

of the type of like star she is, right? Like- It's sort of the point I'm trying to make is like, she immediately becomes an icon the second she appears on screen and laughing. Huge icon. Here's this woman with blonde hair and huge eyes and she's got the flowers. Huge mouth. Right, the flowers painted on her body. Huge icons. Here's this woman with blonde hair and huge eyes and she's got the flowers.

Huge mouth. Right, the flowers painted on her body. Crazy mouth. And she says Socket Toomey or whatever. And people immediately are like, this means something. The mailbox was Haldeman. The mailbox was Haldeman. No, but like people looked at her like she was the fucking...

I think about the mailbox was Haldeman all the time. Pile of mashed potatoes in Close Encounters and went like, this means something. This is culturally important, right? And then she, within a year, goes to movies, wins an Oscar, and they're like, you are legitimate. You're no longer just like pop iconography. We are taking you seriously. And so throughout the 70s,

she's just undeniably culturally humongous before figuring out what her thing is. And then she has a run that's like big in the 80s. She slows down in the 90s. She's made three movies in the last 25 years. Uh, she has so like, but even in the 90s, Goldie, we're just starting off with Goldie Hawn before he introduced the podcast, which is fine. It's fine. It's good. Have we ever covered Goldie Hawn?

This is a great question. Uh, one time movie. Swingship. Swingship. Right, I was the one time we covered her. Which is a very complicated film in her career. Yes it is. But like in the 90s, I would say the only hits she made were, Death, Death, Death. Excuse me, in order.

House sitter, which is both a huge hit and like kind of a well remembered like cable movie. Death Becomes Her, which is both a huge hit and kind of a well-remembered cable movie. Death Becomes Her, which is a big hit and well-received. And then, right, her 90s apex is First Wives Club, which people forget made tons of money. But I feel like it's also like when you think of 90s Han, she looks like that. Yes.

Same with 90s Midler. And honestly, 90s Keaton. Their looks are that. But those Right. Like the same with 90s Midler and honestly 90s Keaton. Yeah. Like their looks are that. But those are three big. Oh, when I said she's only made three movies in the last 25 years, I forgot that she did fucking two Christmas Chronicles. She is Mrs. Claus in the Christmas Chronicles one and two. Right. Because I was thinking Town and Country long delayed in 01, Banger Sisters 02, and then she doesn't do a movie until SNAS. And when we cover Chris Columbus on this podcast, we will do the Christmas Chronicles 2, but

not one, because he didn't direct the first one. But you're saying those were her only three really big hits in the 90s. In the 90s, she, In Bird on a Wire, like, is kind of a flop. Deceived is like forgotten. Chris Cross is basically forgotten, crisscross is basically completely forgotten. Right, everybody, everyone says I love you. It's an ensemble thing and out of towners, it's kind of, out of towners, town and country

banger sisters, it's kind of like, you know what? Yeah. I mean, I think she decides she's done. Yes. But like, it's like, you know what? The Goldie Hawn business is not a Hollywood business anymore, really. But here's another thing.

Like the three big hits you said in the 90s, those are big Hollywood movies. Yeah. Where the other thing was like she was someone where you could just sell it on. It's Goldie Hawn plus like the pairing of Goldie and someone would excite someone. You know, Bird on a Wire is like Mel and Goldie is like the whole selling point. Yeah, definitely. She did two movies with Steve Martin. You know, she did like four movies with Warren Beatty. Like it was a lot of like... Goldie!

Goldie plus someone equals excitement. God bless her having the name Goldie. She really lucked out. It's her birth name. It's a cool name. Goldie! Is Han her real last name? Yeah, Goldie Jean Han.

I mean, she nailed it. She did nail it. Her parents, of course, Laura and Edward nailed it, I would say. Mm-hmm. Half Jewish. Is that right? Goldie Hahn's half Jewish. Somebody is half too.

Paul Newman's half too. Put them together, that's one fine-looking Jew. Yeah, her mother was Jewish. Her mother was Jewish. Thank you, Griffin. Of course. Essler is not your... Mailboxes Haldeman.

I got you with the mailboxes Haldeman, though. It's not your fault. Welles Haldeman. I got you with the mailboxes Haldeman, though. It's not your fault. Well, okay, I had to, I will say that I do love the 30 Rock laugh and parody, and otherwise, like, the fake Goldie's like, like, your pardon. Right.

Esther, it's not your fault, and I'm not accusing you of mumbling or not pronouncing properly, but when you said half Jewish, this is just the culture, poison culture we live in. I heard it as Hawk to ish. And I was like, are you accusing Goldie Hawn of being Hawk to ish? I think you should cut that out.

Should Goldie Hawn go on Hawk to talk to us? I need to be honest about. Also, sorry, it's TWA. What? I'm sorry, what? What? It's not Talk Twa? It's Talk Twa? Yeah, because she's...

Please, please finish the sentence. Please. Because it's like, Twa. She's spitting on the deck. I understand what she was saying on the streets! The whole Empire built on the fact that she said it a weird way, that she didn't say it the way that makes sense. Twa, spit on that thing.

I think it's Twa. As someone who saw that TikTok, like, naturally, and had the same reaction that apparently millions of Americans did where I was like, that girl's a firecracker, I love her. And so now we've crowned her queen of media. She definitely said Tua. I think, okay, then I'm wrong. I thought it was Tua.

No, Hock-Tua. Tua would be if you were playing it real, if you were doing a realistic performance. The whole reason Hawk Tua was funny is not because she says Hawk Tua's been on that thing. That is funny. It's that she then lets out this kind of genuine laugh because she knows she's said something silly. And you're like, ah, she's not so bad.

She should throw out the first pitch at a Mets game. Maybe she should have a podcast. And then by 2025, I'm like, she's secretary of the interior? Are we sure? If we're lucky, she only mixed it up to secretary of interior. Look, for our younger listeners, and I say this as if the three of us fucking lived through Goldie Hawn's emergence. We did. But I do feel like Goldie Hawn appearing on Laughing was similar to the Hawk to a girl. I don't think that's true. Absolutely not.

Griffin. Griffin. Griffin. Fuck you. I'm not comparing the work. I'm comparing the cultural impact. I think... I'm just pro-Hawk.

People said what a firecracker. I like her. I mean, she's great. Unless she's done something bad by the time this episode comes out, which is eminently possible. She has endorsed, like, Victor Orban at this point. Like, I have no idea what she does on that show. I just, I'm like, you never know with Hawk Toa.

Has anyone listened to the podcast? I've seen clips from it on TikTok, but they tend to be 30 seconds long. Sure. I've heard that she brings on occasionally, like, hometown friends. I think more than occasionally. That sounds great. Her grandma's the co-host? Wait, wait, that sounds good. brings on occasionally like hometown friends. I think more than occasionally. I think her grandma's the cohost.

I know that. That sounds good. Like her talking to other influencers, that sounds boring. Her just kind of being like, this is my vibe. Sure. I think that's what it is. Right, yeah, great.

None of us know what the third most popular podcast in the world is. Yeah, but what I heard is that her friends were people who clearly had never, ever spoken into a microphone before in their entire lives. And weren't the best at being able to have an engaging conversation. We can't all be fucking hot to her. Like, Put your hands on my mic. They spit on that thing.

They don't know what to do with it they never been on Mike before this is playing with Griffin and David I'm Griffin I'm David podcast about filmography is and not about the Hawk to a girl like this episode in two months it's not so dated except she's kind of she's been a thing for a long time so I was gonna say this is what I like about talking about the Hawk to a girl in episodes we record far in advance. We can't imagine how much bigger she'll be by the time this comes out.

It's not like she'll become Hasse. It's oppression. Right. She's the star of Anyone But You 2 by this point. Anyone But 2. Fuck. Some Sony executive arm hair just stood straight hearing that. Tom Frostman just ejaculated.

He went butt to it. It's like, yeah, that's... Give that a green light at $82 million. Look, this is a podcast about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby. We're talking about the most successful filmmaker in history. Period. Right? I do think it's still basically uncontested.

Yeah, of course. Is there any dispute of that? No, of course not. He's certainly earned the most money. Well, does James Cameron have him beat money wise? My guess is no though because Spielberg just has so many, you know, more movies. Spielberg's more, more of a mogul too. Well then, and there's that too. Cameron, I feel like makes most of his money from his good deals making the most successful movies in history. Spielberg also has his finger in, his finger's fingers in many other pots he's getting that fucking Universal Studios ticket cut Yeah

Looking it up. I sent James Cameron getting dizzy James I will probably repeat this 8,000 times across this series when Universal decided to Start a theme park Expand past just the back lot tour. The big coup was we get Spielberg to sign on as our chief creative consultant. Oh, so he gets like, just absolutely. I believe he gets 20%

As a director. Of ticket sales across all parks in perpetuity. As a director, just director. Yep. Spielberg has Cameron beat by $2 billion. That's a lot of money. And again, he's got many more movies. right? But yeah, he's got him beat Yeah, we're talking about the first half of Steven Spielberg's career in a series

We're calling pod rassic cast and today we are talking about his first what sorry Podrastic cast spit on that better the more you say it. Yeah, exactly. Okay We should get Haley Walsh to say it. She'd probably know how to make it sound good I'm laughing already. I love it today. We're talking about Steven Spielberg's first intentional feature film theatrical film Yes. Yes. He still calls it his first book. He calls this his first movie and that makes sense because it's the first thing He made that was released In theaters, right where someone said we are giving you money to make a movie. Here you go He calls this his first movie and that makes sense because it's the first thing he made that was released in theaters. First cinema.

Right, where someone said, we are giving you money to make a movie, here you go. It's called the Sugarland Express and our guest today joining us, Blankchuck's own little firecracker. Esther Zuckerman. I wear that badge proudly. Blankchuck's little firecracker.

Esther, you write about Goldie Hawn in your book? Yeah, you know, it's... You have a new book coming out. I have a new book coming out. It will be out by the time this episode is... It like is airs. Airs is the right word. Drops.

Drops? Yes, it is about rom-coms. I write, yes, I write about Cactus Flower a little bit. You know, it's funny, I write also about Goldie in the context of her daughter, Kate Hudson, who... Who? You never heard of her. Actually, you know, it's something really fun. It's not really funny. Whatever. I was at brunch the other day at like a local restaurant and there was a girl trying to explain to her boyfriend like Goldie Hawn,

she's Kate Hudson's mother and he was like, I don't know who those people are and I don't care. Either one. I'm not sure he just seemed so like, stop talking to me. Wild. And I'm not sure what brought it up though I think it might have been the fact that all of the the Hawn Hudson family is doing a Skims holiday ad campaign though not Kurt and not Wyatt Oh, you're kidding. They didn't want to jump in on that one But doesn't Oliver have Oliver is in it all of us are guests in the world. Anyway, all over Hudson

Of course is that Kate's brother? Never heard of this motherfucker. He has a podcast called like I'm a brother or something Deal with the US government for five trillion dollars. Anyway. I swear to you. The agency of global commerce has signed into broadcast this in people's brains. I didn't even interrupt my own self promo. Yes, you have self promo.

What's the title of the book, Esther? Falling in Love with the Movies. Falling in Love with the Movies. What's the title of the book? Falling in Love with the Movies, Falling in Love with the Movies. And Romcoms from the Screwball era to today. And it's with TCM and I talk about, I talk about the female Romcom star and sort of talk about Kate's run of being a major Romcom star

and how like, and the descendant and Goldie as sort of the, the sort of forebearer of that in, especially with Cactus Flower and winning the Oscar. There is an argument for, and I wonder if this is the argument you're making, that Kate was sort of the last person who got to pursue a conventional rom-com movie star career at a high level.

Yeah, I mean, that's not, I don't really go- She's in that last generation with Heigl and- Yeah, I don't really go chronologically. Heigl's truly the last. Heigl's the end of it, but yes. I don't really go chronologically. So like, I sort of talk about, you know, when I talk about the female stars of the rom-com,

I sort of divide it into two major types, which is the Spitfire and the Relatable Queen, in the sense that like... What is Kate Hudson? She's the Spitfire. She's definitely not a Relatable Queen. I was about to say, maybe we're maybe noticing what Kate Hudson's issue was,

is she's a pretty poor Spitfire. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I talk about Goldie. I mean, it's interesting, cause you's a pretty poor spitfire. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I talk about Goldie. I mean, it's interesting because, you know, it's funny looking at her. She doesn't have that many straight rom-coms, which is sort of interesting in the context of, you know, obviously Overboard as a classic one. A Cactus Flower is one. But she did a lot of like capers and stuff like that.

Private Benjamin really isn't like, stuff like that isn't a romcom. No, but also she, so many of her movies were sold on it's Goldie Plus X, right? Like it was like two big movie stars. She does two movies with Chevy Chase. She does best friends with Burt Reynolds, right? She does like two movies with Kurt. Burt on a Wire is

Mel and Goldie, first names only. She has two Steve Martin movies. Like that was kind of the formula, but most of those movies, even when there is a central romance, I would not classify as rom-com. No, they're capers. Right. House sitter is not a rom-com. Yeah. A rom-com. Yeah. So, yeah, so I do, you know, as a nice way to sort of, like, sponge our way into promo-ing my book for this podcast. Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. I do talk about Goldie.

And I do talk about Cactus Flower in a chapter about the Man in Crisis rom-com. It's sort of all about a chapter about all the rom-coms that are basically about, you know, it's such a female-coded genre but so many of these rom-coms are about men having deep problems. Yeah, but also, admittedly not having seen that, Cactus Flower feels like one of those like pictures of the revolution, turning point movies where you're like, Mathau is like an old guard movie star, and here's a movie about him trying

to reckon with a flower child, right? It is that launching its own star. I know it has other things going on, but like isn't that part of the alchemy that Goldie was kind of the first off the conveyor belt of like, this is a new movie star who represents a new type of woman that has not really existed in the media up until this moment.

Which also sort of makes, you know, Sugar Land Express so interesting in her career. Yes. Because, I don't know, it feels so, it doesn't, it feels so sort of outside of what she's known for doing. Well, because I feel like even when she's in kind of like, I'm falling apart, Liberty Jibbit mode, right? There's a sense of Goldie having some sense of self, right? There are things like shampoo where she's a character

in crisis because she can't fully hold the guy down, but there's still this sense of like, she's a spark plug, she's a firecracker, right? There's like a spirit within her you can't dampen. And that's certainly part of the equation of Sugarland Express, but the other part of it is like, what the fuck is going on in this woman's head, right? Like so much of this movie is everyone

just being and I guess this is what those poster taglines are trying and failing to capture. It's like this whole movie hinges on what is she thinking? Even just from the initial setup of like, why the fuck are you going to try to break out of prison when you're four months away from being released? And Atherton's like, I just don't, how do you deal with her? And because it's Goldie, it makes sense. And it wouldn't make sense with everybody, but that is Goldie's magic, I would say.

She makes movie kind of logic makes sense because she's such a big personality. And to the extent that later in her career, or even in this movie, a movie like House Sitters basically like, what if you met a Goldie Hawn type? Like can be basically kind of the premise of your movie of like, uh-oh, she's crazy. Like in fun, but insane, but like a lot,

but like, you know, but witching, you know, it's like, it's just like, yeah, Goldie Hawn's in your life. Is this the only movie that makes her dangerous? I don't know, Private Benjamin, she was in the Army. The US Army. Well, but she's very responsible. She is? Oh, nothing goes wrong?

She gets there. She gets there. She's a Jewish American princess in that movie. I know, that's a good movie. Yeah. Wildcats, is she dangerous in that one, running a football team? I've never seen Wildcats. The Anger Sisters, did they make like explosives?

Yeah. Is that why they're called that? Never seen, I gotta say, never seen The Banger Sisters. That's a classic movie that came out when I was a teenager where I was like, none of this, no part of this is for me, I think. I remember getting the completely expected, perfunctory best actress in a musical or comedy nomination

for Goldie at the Golden Globes. And when they cut her in the audience, she was like, shrug. you could see on her favorite. She was like, maybe I'm retiring. Maybe that's my last movie. Unless Amy Schumer makes a movie out. For 15 years. Is she good in Snatched?

Yeah, I liked Snatched quite a bit. I actually liked, I liked that movie. And I know I forgot about that movie. I mean, it wasn't well received, but like quickly got, there was a bit of a whispering of like, I know we're all over Amy Schumer, but Snatched ain't bad Yeah, yeah, yeah, snatched. Snatched low-key good and and felt like one of those things of like Oh, here's one of the few like major kind of eternal movie stars

Where her coming out of retirement is gonna be a big deal and it wasn't no Yeah, where it's like we got Goldie and audiences are like who? Yeah compared to like 10 years before that, when Jane Fonda does Monster in Law, it did feel like the press was like, -"This is important." -"Oh, that was huge." Yeah, she's been retired for 15 years, shackled to Ted Turner's bed.

And now she's free to be in this like, you know, five out of 10 movie. Right, but made a ton of money. Did, yeah, people saw it. People showed up. Yeah. I mean, Snatch made some money. Snatch did not do very well. How did Snatch do?

You know what I think a big problem with it was? Oh, it made 45 million. That's a terrible title. Domestic. No? Okay, that's not terrible. I thought it was even... I thought it was closer to 30. I feel like it had a better title throughout development and then they changed it to Snatched at the last minute and it was like, this was a mistake.

Yeah, that's, if you change the title, okay, but so what was the original title? It had the working, no, it had a bad title. Mother Daughter? Mother Daughter. It's better than Snatched. Yeah, it's still bad though. Yeah. It got its ass kicked by King Arthur Legend of the Sword. Oh no, it's still bad though. Yeah. It got its ass kicked by King Arthur, Legend of the Sword.

Oh no, it didn't actually actually be King Arthur. Legend of the Sword. That's embarrassing for King Arthur. This NFL season, get in on all the hard-hitting action with FanDuel, North America's number one sportsbook. You can bet on anything from money lines to spreads and player props, or combine your bets in a same-game parlay for a shot at an even bigger payout. Plus with super simple live betting, lightning fast bet settlement and instant withdrawals, FanDuel makes betting on the NFL easier than ever before. So make the most of this football season and download FanDuel today. 19 plus and physically located

in Ontario. Gambling Palm, call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Look, I want to, I want to be on top of it here. Let me just say this. The Sugarland Express. It is wild for, you know, this is a movie where Goldie is minted as a star, but has not quite figured out her thing yet. Spielberg is getting his first real shot at making a movie. Then both of them go on to have wild success

over the next couple of decades. They never work together again in any capacity. I wondered about this, yeah. Why did they never work together? I've sensed no ill will. He speaks very highly of her. You have to imagine they're constantly overlapping. At the same parties.

Right. And it's just funny that they never did anything together ever again, and it's almost as funny as when you remind people that Steven Spielberg's first movie was a William Atherton Like it just doesn't feel like wait dickless from Ghostbusters At one point was Steven Spielberg's leading man Atherton also never never worked with Spielberg You think he'd pop up and some FBI guy, some like... I will say respectfully,

I feel like Atherton has a reputation for being very difficult. And I feel like, who knows if JJ gets into this in the DOS view. But I think there was a bit of a narrative that he kind of blew his leading man shot after this movie. And then when he comes back in the 80ies as like a dickless stiff ass, that was sort of unnecessary. Okay, that's your lane. Rebrand, he came back a little humbled.

Not to jump ahead, but did you guys look up the guy who plays Slide and what his deal is? Yes. Wait, what's the... Should we just get into this right away? You mean Michael Sacks? Yeah. The guy, cause he's in Slaughterhouse 5.

Yep. Yes, but do you know what he does now? Like what he like. Is it good? Michael Sacks. Does he host the podcast? I don't know, he worked at Morgan Stanley for 10 years. Okay.

He's just like. Oh, he just became a rich guy. He just became a rich guy. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Michael Sacks did nine movies in total. Right. Two of them TV movies.

Slaughterhouse 5, Sugarland Express, The Private Files of J. Edgar Hoover, Hanover Street, Emmityville Horror, Split Image. His final film in 1984 is The House of God. It's kind of crazy that he was the star of Slaughterhouse Five, which is not, people don't remember that movie now, but it was a big movie, George Roy Hill movie,

and he was the out of nowhere Billy Pilgrim. And then, right, he does this. He's pretty good in this. He's got the right look. And yeah, like. And then right, he does this. He's pretty good in this. He's got the right look. And yeah, like by the eighties he's done and I guess he retired before. Yeah. He's like doing movies with like Harrison Ford. He's doing it on medieval heart.

Like he's in big shit. And then I'll just read this paragraph after spending time working in technology positions on wall street in 2004, Sachs joined the online bond trading company, Market Access, AXESS as head of global applications development. He was employed by Morgan Stanley from 1994 to 2004 as executive director, global head of bond technology for the fixed income division. Griffin, this is not interesting. This is fascinating.

I mean, reading it aloud, I mean, I mean, it's interesting that he just pivoted to being a rich guy, but. It just held like all of these fucking positions for. Yeah, he's fancy. 40 years now. And he's still alive. Yeah, you can look him up.

Ben Johnson though? I just looked him up on LinkedIn. Dead, what a loser. What's he thinking? Ben Johnson lived a lot longer than I thought. Should I connect with Michael Sacks on LinkedIn? Yes, you should. The thing with Ben Johnson is, you're like, oh, he lived like another 20 years after Sugarland Express,

so he must have died at the age of 100. No, he died at 77. He's only in his 50s in this movie. He reads like so much older. And of course, he won the Oscar a few years prior to this. And it was this Oscar that was kind of like ah the old lion of the you know Western like this old vet and it's like he was like probably 48 and they're like Hi old we're sending you out to pasture Ben, you know Like the reason felt that way is a lot of these guys died at 52. Yeah, I mean to be clear

I think he was he probably was in his 50s, yes, but still like. You know what I'm saying? Even like, you know, Robert Shaw, who we'll cover next week, was dead within three years of Jaws. A lot of these guys died very young and died very young basically of old age, where people just lived so fucking hard.

They just accelerated down the old age road. It was like, yeah. Right, Ben Johnson lives until the 2000s as making movies until the end. I was like, right, he's in Angels in the Outfield. He lived until 96. 96. I'm sorry. Yes, no, 96.

Yes, he died of a heart attack visiting his still living mother at a suburban Phoenix retirement community where they both lived. So I guess he was like going to the building across the street or whatever. And she lived another four years and died at the age of 101. That's insane. This is kind of insane. And there's a sculpture of Ben Johnson

in Pawhuska, Oklahoma that you can go see. Pawhuska, that's where they filmed Killers of Klaramen. That's cool. Well, then we should go see the statue and then the location of that film. Pawhuska live show? They have a venue, do you think? Like what's a comedy lounge?

What's like a, what's a chain? What are they? Exactly. Bananas with a Z. David Crack opened the dossier. Because there is more of a gap between Duel and this than I remembered. Duel. Have you seen Duel, Esther Zuckerman?

I have never seen Duel all the way through. I've seen clips of Duel. It rules. Duel does rule. Check it out. Duel rules. Talk to a Duel rules. We have to stop.

Steven Spielberg makes Duel. It's kind of hot stuff. And everyone's like, okay. That's what I'm saying. But there's buzz. Everyone's like, okay, what's Steven gonna do? And Steven says, Steven Spielberg says, he was offered a bunch of movies right out of Duel,

but they were kind of bad, right? Like suddenly it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, get that guy. But I think he's probably being sent whatever warmed over projects are kind of sitting around. Right. So instead he does two more TV movies, which I think we're planning on discussing on our Patreon. Yes.

Something Evil and Savage. Yeah. And, you know, he basically, so Something Evil was Savage. Yeah. And, you know, he basically... So Something Evil was for CBS. Universal let him out of his contract to do it, because they had nothing for him to do. And then Savage, which has Martin Landau, was a true, like, he says the only real time that Universal was like, you have to do this, literally. You owe us something.

Exactly. Yeah. Have not seen Savage? Have you seen Savage? No, we. Like, exactly. Yeah. Have not seen Savage? Have you seen Savage? No, we will. We'll watch it. And then we'll watch it, and then we'll talk about it on Patreon. And we'll see Lando mugging it up in that one.

And then he's thinking of making a movie called McCluskey, based on, sort of based on something that Greedo once said to Han. Oh, fuck you. It's based on that in the same way that Sugar Land Express is based on True Story. same way that sugar land expresses based on true story It takes some liberties that changes some of the words Clunky yeah, that's what I'm saying

Sort of based on fire Because that is the real thing that grito said a long time ago still Weird that he just says we're talking Connor Aleph when we do George Lucas talk show, anytime he refers to the McClunky cut, or he tries to, like, sort of pathologize the thought behind the McClunky change at the last minute, it feels like the kind of thing Connor would make up.

And it's so weird that it's just really the last thing that George Lucas did before selling the company. Right, like, little like perfect. One little change. And then I'm ready to let go of Star Wars forever. His final statement was McClunky. Anyway, Spielberg wanted to make McCluskey. McCluskey, Burt Reynolds' vehicle,

which is later made by Joseph Sargent and is given the slightly better title of White Lightning, which is, you know is a good title. Spielberg truly works, comes aboard that project, but decides not to do it because he's working on it for like two months, scouts some locations, is starting to casting, and he's basically like, this is like a journeyman movie

that is a Burt Reynolds vehicle, why am I doing this? And so he backs out and decides like, I need to do something a little more personal, which is why I'm sort of like, how'd you get to Sugar Land Express? But we'll get to that. Yeah, yes. Major pin in that, cause I got some thoughts.

He also briefly was flirting with California Split. Interesting. And Cruisin'. Okay. I'm assuming that's not the free kid moving. Cruisin'? Not the free kid moving. Not the free kid moving. Is it cruisin' with a apostrophe? Can you imagine Steven Spielberg directing Cruisin'?

Is that the one that... Steven Spielberg's cruising, like, they go into the gay bar and the camera just doesn't go in. It's just like, let's leave. I was gonna say, it's the most explicit handshaking movie you've ever seen. Hello, nice to meet you. Good. Just leather daddies tipping their caps. Right, right, right. Good afternoon. It's the most explicit handshaking movie you've ever seen. Hello nice to meet you

Just leather daddies tipping their caps Good afternoon. She was like this is sick Unbelievable Violent underbelly is cruising with an apostrophe the movie that ends up being the the Curtis Hanson Tom Cruise Jack Yelloh Haley movie or a third entirely different movie. No, that's losing. Oh, I'm sorry I don't know what Cruisin' is, but JJ has highlighted it. Now Spielberg had been thinking about the Sugarland Express since in 1969, he had read a news story

about this true story. He'd pitched it to Universal back then, you know, about this Texas couple that, you know, I even hostage. Universal's like, eh, this seems like a bummer now. But now he's got a little juice. He's trying to revive it. He takes it over to Jennings Lang, who pairs him with these screenwriters,

Hal Barwood and Matthew Robbins, who have a credit on the movie, along with Spielberg. Yeah. Robbins becomes a major collaborator. He's in the Spielberg-Amblin ecosystem. He's working with Lucas a lot over the next couple decades. He's a major recurring figure. He wrote, even recently, he wrote the screen story

for Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio. Yeah, he wrote Batteries Not Included. Right, which, yeah. Anyway, so they have a title, Carte Blanche. Oh, interesting. French for blank check. He knew. They wrote a script in like 13 days and a universal thinks about it but puts in a turnaround

but then they revive it and for whatever reason, you know, Hollywood's a crazy business, I guess. They respect Steven enough to be like, okay, let's fucking do it. Do you have any sources on that? Any sites? Hollywood, Hollywood's let's fucking do it. Do you have any sources on that? Any sites? Hollywood, Hollywood's just a crazy old town. Yeah, hard for me to believe that. Uh-huh.

Spielberg says he likes the kind of media circus part of it, right? It's not just that he's interested in this couple. He likes the sort of American condition of today, you know, sort of statement you can make about it. Like he relates it to Ace in the Hole, the great Billy Wilder movie, right? But it's not just about the event,

it's about the thing that unfolds around the event. Which, you know, does start to become a major theme in American movies across this decade. Like Dog Day Afternoon is sort of the apex of this. A better film than The Chocolat. I agree, but the modern relationship to crime and news and... Right. The first wave of...

I mean, Ace in the Hole is actually more of the first, but yeah, but like television and all that stuff. Television, that's the first wave. Yes. Sugarland Express becomes the title, I don't know. It's a good title. It is a good title, but it doesn't really tell you anything about what you're in for. No, but it's kind of like the... It's a good title, but it doesn't really tell you anything about what you're in for. No, but it's kind of like the...

It's a catchy title. It's the Peter Bogdanovich Paper Moon story, where he's just like, that just sounds good. It does sound good. And he reaches out to Worsenwells and he's like, what do you think of Paper Moon? And he's like, the title's so good, you don't even need to make the picture. Like, Trickland Express doesn't tell you anything about the movie, but it is just kind of a fun set of words. Universal is basically like, we will do this, but you need a star.

And so that's how Goldie Hawn comes aboard. He has two recent Academy Award winners in this movie. Who's the other? Ben Johns? Oh, Ben Johns, you're right. Of course. At just 1971, right? Yeah.

Spielberg has acknowledged later on that casting Goldie Hawn was risky because you do kind of expect a Goldie Hawn picture and this isn't that right? The ending of this movie is sad like this is a downbeat, you know experience It's not a Goldie Hawn picture in that our point. She has not quite figured out what a Goldie Hawn picture is true So like you're playing with sort of like weird elements But I do think that the Goldie Hawn like idea is still the girl from last time. Absolutely.

She's just gonna be wearing a little mini skirt and doing a little dance. This is what's interesting about it. And you know, you can listen to our Swingshift episode. Come on, Liz, it's the 90s. That is maybe the greatest live delivery in that episode. It is incredible. It's the perfect episode.

It is my favorite episode of 30 Rock, probably. Never follow a hippie to a second location. Never follow a hippie to a second location is just unbelievable. To me, that's the epitome of what I think 30 Rock is about, especially in the early seasons, which is about Liz, the allure of Jack Donaghy to Liz. Right?

Of like, no, I don't wanna be like you, but also this era of politics and thought kind of is like, eh, I have to stop to be like you, but also this era of politics and thought kind of is like, eh, I have to stop worrying about being radical and just make money. Like, and Jack Donaghy is the devil on her shoulder being like, yes, big office, be mean. It's the heart of the show. It's the heart of the show. Tina Fey's relationship to Lauren Michaels. 100%.

Her like alternating confusion, revulsion, admiration. Not romantic attraction, but like, you know, just like to that lifestyle. And like the most good 30 Rock episodes end with her going to his office and him being like, well, Lemon, and she's like, yeah, I don't. And he's like, mm-hmm. And you're like, this rocks, it's the best.

My favorite running thing on 30 Rock is when they get angry by people suggesting there's maybe sexual chemistry. But yeah, right, that's like never. Right, the show is like, fuck you. That's also the episode where Jack Donaghy says, chipper robe, when he does the entire group therapy with Tracy Morgan playing like 16 characters.

Right. Yes. But that's not the, lemon is 5 p.m. what am I a farmer? No, that's in season one, that's early. That's that episode, that is in- Is that Black Tie? No, that's in season one. That's early. That's that episode. That is in- Is that Black Tie? No, that's in Tracy Does Come In. That's right.

That's really early. Yeah. That episode's good. I rewatched it like two years ago. Now I wanna just watch it all again. It's solid gold. Here's what I was gonna say. 10 years later, she does Swing Shift.

We covered Swing Shift many years ago on the podcast, right? Swing Shift is a movie where this calamitous production, birth, post-production, battle, that's basically because Goldie won't let go of what a Goldie Hawn movie is in her head. That she could not accept a movie being a piece of a Jonathan Demme movie and was like, my persona's this, Kurt and I have this chemistry, this and that. Right. It's interesting that Goldie Hawn represented a very clear thing at this point, but hadn't figured out how to successfully build a movie around it. So she seems more open to just being an instrument for Spielberg.

And she's a very good one, but an expensive one, Griffin, because she had a deal with Universal so they could get her, but she costs one Griffin. She had a deal with Universal, so they could get her, but she costs 300 grand. The movie's budget is about $2 million. So she's a big ticket. She's close to a fourth of the budget. And, but she says, recently she said this. I guess it was the one fifth of the budget.

Whatever, but she says it was the most beautiful time. I love Spielberg. I was amazed that this young man I worked with so many years ago went on to make all these movies. I love you, Steven. That's her take. William Atherton, Spielberg says, and I do like this take from him.

He says, very soft spoken, but with wild eyes. You could easily misunderstand him, like looking through a pair of binoculars. Interesting. You know what I mean? It's like I wanted to cast someone who maybe looked crazy, but not in like an obvious way. Atherton, yeah. Atherton. And then he says he cast Michael Sacks because he looked like Atherton and he wanted them to resemble each other.

Like, he wanted them to be two sides of the coin. Like, kind of straight-laced and crazy. It is funny that Atherton... But it can be distracting sometimes because they kind of look alike. Yes. It's just funny that Atherton's thing at this time is, is this guy insane? And then it just, within atherton's the thing at this time is is this guy insane and then it just within a decade But like this fucking suit is here to ruin your party

The second he walks on screen you're like get him out of here buzzkill Spielberg says Hon is wonderful on take one and two her gets her second win on take seven and is marvelous again on take 12 or 13 On the other hand atherton is this New York actor who's very serious and demanding and he gets better with takes. So Goldie would be wearing thin as Bill was getting better. I love to hear directors talk like that. Because then you really are like, yeah, they know.

They think about this stuff and they won't talk about it too much because it's a little impolite. But also, like, this is Spielberg. But now it's like 50 years from now, Spielberg can talk about this. This is his first proper movie. He's directed less than 10 professional things at this point, right, in total. And for him to already have a sense of, like, you know,

when people talk about, you know, an actor's director, director who's good with actors, what that really means is someone who is intuitive and empathetic and observant and understands how to deal with different people differently, because. Because there is no one size fits all thing. And like you do have actors who have different processes, different like arcs of when they're going to have the most juice and shit like that. And for Spielberg to already at this age be able to clock that and be able to manage that and figure out how to like create a flow around that. It's like the Spielberg blocking ship, right? Not to get ahead of conversation here, but it's like, you know, you look at this movie and it already has the crazy Spielberg

oners that are totally on showy. You don't notice until like two minutes in like, wait, there hasn't been a cut. And it's always it feels like for the sake of how would I put it it's a story economy right like he's trying to simplify things and I'm sure also simplifying his shoot day by figuring out how to get thing in one extended shot and the blocking is so precise but you compare it to someone like Hitchcock who would do similar things but was so contemptuous of his actors and talked about them like paper dolls and puppets right and he would like hire a movie star and just be like do your fucking movie star

thing and then hire a woman and yell at her you know and like Spielberg is someone who is like collaborative with actors you really feel like he's trying to meet them where they are and like synthesize different sort of acting styles performance styles tones and whatever but in an era where a lot of other filmmakers are going like, I let the actors do whatever they want. They're free, there's no blocking, the camera's loose, we're shooting it almost verite style.

Like that's the style that's on the rise, because this kind of traditional blocking framing, sort of like intentionality of shot structure is starting to seem a little rigid and classical and passe. And he's like this one guy who's able to marry the two things, like the modern style of performance and like treating actors as collaborators, but also have these sort of very intentional,

man, the actors keep on landing in just the right spot at just the right time. Yeah, absolutely. It's just wild to me. They shot it for 60 days on location in Texas. Shot in continuity to keep costs down. Makes sense because of all the cars you need at the end of the movie. Spielberg is basically never working, has never worked with a crew this big, right?

So Saul, sorry, Zanuck, the producer, is like, well, let's ease him in, give him a sense of control, and then gets to set on the first day and says, he was about to get ready for his first shot and it was the most elaborate fucking thing I'd ever seen in my life. All in one shot, camera going and stopping, people going in and out, and he had such confidence in the way he was handling it, and I was kind of like, oh, I don't think I need to like,

you know, warm this kid up. Like, he'll be fine. But also, this movie, he's already working with Vilmos, John Williams, and Verna Fields. Yes. And Vilmos Jigmund had just done McCabe and fucking Long Goodbye, right? Like, he, it's not like he's some amateur

they picked up off the heat. He's already like really hot stuff. Right. This Spielberg altman overlap, I keep finding fascinating. Cause Williams had done. Close they were at this point in time for very different filmmakers. Yeah.

And Spielberg had loved McCabe, which is, he says this is his favorite film that Zygmunt ever shot and images. And he loved Deliverance and he loved The Longer and he said I'd heard about this crazy Hungarian who lights with six-foot candles and would try anything. So I sent him the script and he loved it. And I said I wanted to shoot this whole picture in the rain with windshield wipers going and he was like, let's do it, bro. They only shoot, they only work again on close encounters. Also a good looking movie though.

I think a pretty terrific looking film. I think two of the three best looking things he ever shot shot. Yeah along with the pilot for the Mindy project That's his final credit. He's so she's so funny. I can't do I don't know what he sounds like How can she balance her work with her? I think three of the guys here need to sort of be cycled out for other guys Remember how many project would be like that guy guy's fired, this guy's in. And then like over and over again. Two new guys.

Maybe too much Ike Barinholt. Lots of Ike. Oh, you want less? OK, OK, we can have less. We can have less. Yeah. I just believe that was straight up his last thing he ever shot. Well, yeah. Uh, Spielberg says he's an interesting man. He employs great camera lie, but for gratis, you get his thoughts as well.

He's opinionated and sometimes he'll conflict with your own ideas, but he's enough of a professional to do immediately any way you wish. But Spielberg likes that. For how much this guy has a vision, he's not someone coming in being like, it's all in my head and all of you need to do what I'm telling you to do. They get along really well. It's almost weird that they didn't make more movies together because it does, they do talk about each other

both so positively and Zygmunt's like he's the most talented filmmaker I ever worked with. And this movie looks incredible and has like a kind of surprising look, like there is a kind of muted quality to it. It always feels like it's like sunset or like, you know, early morning, like, you know, the way the light is. The brightest daylight scenes are still, something's a little like shadowy

and sort of sad about that. It's using this new Panaflex camera. I think this was the first feature. The first ever, yes. And so it can do these big pans, I think like 360 degree pans, they can like move around the car really easily. And yeah, I mean, another person he collaborates with

for the first time is John Williams. Who worked with someone else on the squad, right? The Toots? Yes, Toots was the main harmonica player. Who the fuck is Toots? Who isn't Toots? I clocked Toots. Me? Clocked Tootsa?

No, you're a dumbass. Okay, well, 10 commentary points. Been like just, I clocked Toots. Me? Clocked Tootsa? No, you're a dumb. Okay, well, 10 comedy points. Do it. Been like that, or is mad at me. No. One or the other. I'm mad at you. I looked up Toots Sugarland and I got Toots Thielmans,

a Belgian jazz musician who is known for playing the chromatic harmonica. Also known for his whistling skills. I don't think, I don't think, I don't know if you'll listen, but... Oh, he does the harmonic on Sesame Street. Oh, wow, what a fucking legend. Holy shit. Is Toots still with us?

I do think Jordan Hoffman probably is deeply aware of who Toots is. Well, I'm not gonna get Jordan Hoffman fucking started on that. I get 18 text messages about Toots before breakfast. Jordan Hoffman has a whole shelf of toots 75s. Exactly. Toots died in 2016 at the age of 94. He tooted his last toot. So Spielberg had really liked I think we mentioned this on last week's episode, the Mark Rydell film The Revivers, which had a John Williams score. And he was always like, I want the guy who did the score to do my movie.

75 and 78 score. And now Ben was just really shooting some dirty glances at me. Yeah, it was also, but it's fine. William Goldenberg, who scored dual, thinks he might've been able to sneak in there and beat John Williams to the punch if he'd read the script faster. This may just be William Goldberg sitting there full of regret,

being like, why didn't I turn out to be fucking Stephen Spielberg's go-to composer or whatever? But he's like, it's all to do with my procrastination. I was the first person he gave the script and I didn't reply, and he probably thought I didn't like it. I don't know, man. I'm going to be citing the John Williams Disney plus doc a lot in these early episodes because we're close together and I just watched it.

But Spielberg says that he saw the Reavers, which is the, Oh, you, I said revivers. It's the Reavers. There you go. The Mark Rydell movie. Right. And he said to himself, if I ever get to make a movie, I'm hanging with this guy. Right.

It was like locked in in his mind. And then his career got bigger. By the time he goes to him, obviously he'd won the Fiddler Oscar. He wasn't John Williams legend status, but he was like, this guy might turn me down. Right. Um, but it seemed very locked in on the idea that this was the guy he wanted to work with and I think had a notion. The thing he said was that at that point in time,

the sort of big classical orchestral score was going out of fashion. And Spielberg wanted it. He wanted an Aaron Copeland 80 piece orchestra score. That when he hears the Reaver score and some of those other 60s Williams scores, that he's like, this is the last guy keeping up this old school tradition,

and I wanna support him, and this is what I want my movies to sound like. And John Williams is like, no, no. That's not right. We're not doing that for this. We're going to do a small string ensemble and I'm getting toots. Yeah, this is not joking. He's like, and harmonica. This is incredible. It's great. It basically was not really in circulation. It just got put out on CD in the year 2024 for the 50th anniversary. But outside of like times he's performed the main theme as part of like concerts It's never been like that's when people like go get a hot dog, right?

If you're at the fucking Boston Pops or whatever, I think it's like why I think it's a lovely school I'm just saying you're there to see John Williams. Do all this shit You don't he's like and now the Sugarland Express and you're like, I'm gonna make an express stop bathroom. It's a Brown town express Music's making me need to poop he's playing the brown note to notes the brown. I'm sorry I'm going to the bathroom is a major plot point in this movie. It's true Well, if it's something you always think about with car movies We're like when's anyone peeing and they make it very explicit that it's like, she's going to need to go,

but then she doesn't go. This is one of the only movies with like basically a porta potty heist. Yeah, we gotta go. Um, I just think this score sounds like nothing else in the rest of John Williams' entire career, right? It's a total one of one. It is fascinating that this is what starts their relationship and that what starts their relationship is Spielberg being like, I want you to do the John Williams thing.

And he immediately pushes back and is like, hear me out. And Spielberg talks a lot about that. He would go to John Williams with ideas in the early years. And then John Williams would be like, what if I veer here? You think Joss is gonna sound like this, I'm gonna play two notes. You want sweeping orchestra, I'm gonna bring in toots, whatever it is.

And Spielberg is like, at this point, he has this line that's very touching in the doc where he's like, anytime I'm making a movie, the thing that keeps me going is like, oh man, at some point at the other end of this. John's gonna be like, showing me the first thing. I get to hear John's first ideas, and I have no idea what they're gonna be,

and I've never been disappointed by them. And there's some amount of conversation, but I love seeing his first instinct without me giving him any guidance, and me not giving him temper or anything like that. And then in that same documentary, they cut to Lucas, and he goes, you know, a lot of people, you work with them, and they go, well, I have this idea.

And you go, no, that's not what I want, and they push back, and you get into a fight. John's never fought me on anything. He's a real prince. You're like, God, what an interesting comparison point for these two guys where Lucas is like, and first of all, I'm like, what other fucking composers were you working? You worked with so few other composers in your life, but he's like these uppity guys who are giving you ideas.

Right. And Spielberg's like, I like that John Williams like zags and that our relationship was formed on him zagging right off the bat. I also just truly wonder how much. Yeah. Like George Lucas is informing the music of star Wars, which is so clearly like John Williams is like ongoing opus, right? That like every time there's a sequel, he's like, I actually have something new. Like, you know, every time. Yeah.

There's a part where he's like, you know, some of the stuff John gave me, it wasn't right. And I had to explain to him how the mood was wrong. And they play the Luke to sunset moments with his original track. And Toots is going crazy. Bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap bap George Lucas gave in between it. Like obviously it got to the right place, but knowing George Lucas. He just like mumbled something. Was he just like, oh no, it's wrong.

Louder. Yeah. French horn. Don't you dare disagree with me. Sibalba. Is Sibalba in this scene? He's over there. You can't see him.

McClotty. What if George Lucas buys Star Wars back and then just puts Sibalba in this scene? He's over there. You can't see him. McCloskey. What if George Lucas buys Star Wars back and then just puts Sebalba in like one scene of the original Star Wars and then sells it again? That's the biggest mistake Cathy Kennedy's made. Not like doing a Sebalba movie? Not going all in on Sebalba. I think it is a mistake...

Star Wars story. I think it is a mistake how they did a bunch of Star Wars shows, but they never like had the guts guts to do a pod racing show. Where it's just like, that's so built for a show. The world of pod racing. Also just synergy. Walt Disney Company, right? Their whole portfolio.

Just start animating full pod races and airing them on ESPN. Don't make a show that's a narrative. Just let me watch. Invent pod racing as a real sport. Script it, rig it, animate it. Right, like you're gonna have to roller ball it. It's gonna have to be in some country

where you can do that. Some regulations that may be a little lighter. Get proofs in to record some new color commentary. That's gotta hurt. I don't care what country, universe you're from. My dad's losing it. Okay, back to the Sugar Land Express. Let's begin the plot. I heard I don't care what country universe you're from. I'm losing it. Okay Let's begin the plot

David yes, I just heard something mind-blowing. Well, my mind is blown It's going on Netflix. Have you heard of them? Yeah, of course. You have more than 18,000 titles globally. Oh, oh this oh, it impressive. Oh my god. Wait, but what? Only six thousand of those are available in the u.s. Ah You're missing out on all those shows Griffin. This is the problem the overseas show. They're all kind of hidden Unless unless you use Express VPN. Yes, Netflix, for example hides content from you based on your location all the streamers do Express VPN Netflix, for example, hides content from you based on your location. All the streamers do. Mm-hmm. ExpressVPN lets you change your online location. There we go. So you can control where you want Netflix to think you're located. Look, I understand it's a frustration sometimes for people who listen to this show.

We go through careers in order. We have a very set schedule. There's a movie. You see it's on the streaming service you have. You go, great, that episode's coming up in six weeks. I'll watch it then. And you come back six weeks later, it's been pulled down. Where'd it go?

Where'd it go? Hungary. What can I find it? Well, sometimes that's the answer. Sometimes they're hiding the movie in Hungary. Netflix has servers in over 100 countries, so you can gain access to thousands of new shows, never run out of stuff to watch if you use a VPN,

like ExpressVPN. This works with Disney+, BBC, iPlayer, and more. You fire up the app, okay? You click one button to change location. You just pick where you wanna be. Works on all your devices, phones, laptops, tablets, smart TVs and more, and you can stream in blazing fast HD speed with zero buffering.

It's not throttling anything, okay? It's rated number one by top tech reviewers like CNET and The Verge. ExpressVPN also keeps you private and secure by rerouting all your traffic through an encrypted tunnel. Like Coraline. We tend to focus on the... just like Coraline's tunnel. No, we tend to focus on the streaming benefits because that's what...

Yeah, but it's security. It's security as well. And sometimes, look, maybe you're traveling overseas, you want to watch your favorite show, but that streaming service isn't available in the country, and then you can pretend you're back home. Have you watched anything, Griffin? Do you have any examples? One to two, maybe? Yeah, like, I don't want to spoil, but our next mini-series has a director...

...whose stuff is really hard to find. Several films are just weirdly gone. Not on any streaming service, not rentable legally through digital platforms. Interesting. And then suddenly I'm going like, oh, well, well, Disney Plus in Belarus is looking pretty nice about now. That is fascinating.

Yes, okay, so it will be expressly useful for expressly. Expressly useful. Listen, here's what I think. I think everyone should be smart. Stop paying full price for streaming services and only getting access to a fraction of their content. What you should do is get your money's worth at expressvpn.com slash check.

Don't forget to use our link. That's expressvpn.com slash check to get an extra four months of ExpressVPN for free. And then all you have to do is you open it, you select your country, you tap one button to connect, you refresh Netflix or whatever, and then that's how it works. That's how it works. It's great.

["Sugarland Express Theme Song"] Sugarland Express is not a short film, but I do feel like it's a pretty- It's one hour 50. Simple, you know, economical, kind of straightforward moving movie about a couple, Lou Jean, played by Goldie Hawn, and Clovis, played by William Atherton,

kind of crazy names, and Clovis is in jail, and they have a son, and the son has been given to foster parents, and. And Clovis is in jail, and they have a son, and the son has been given to foster parents. And even though Clovis is about to be released from prison, just a few months, four months. He's on pre-release? Right. They're in the sort of like lower security,

Right, the sort of halfway. Facing back. Right. She gets him out, breaks him out of jail, and they are gonna go retrieve their kid, I guess, which is stupid. But this whole movie hinges on the plan being inexplicable.

Right. Right. They never really have a plan. They don't have a plan, yeah. Beyond, we're just gonna go get him. And it's like, okay, and then what? It's like, nobody seems to have an answer. By the end, she's like, oh, like, we're gonna go to Mexico, we're gonna do,

Sure. And like, at the very end, she's like, we're gonna, we're going to go to Mexico. We're going to do it. Sure. At the very end, she's like, we're going to do this right. We're going to do parenting right. And it's like, wasn't this your whole plot? Wasn't this your whole idea? No, the major difference from the real story is that in the real story, he was not breaking out. No, they had already been released. He had been released.

She had been released. And then they proceed to hold this cop car hostage. Right. And have them escort him across. They did want to try and get their son, and it had the same basic ending of he died. I think he was shot and killed instantly, and yeah, she went to jail.

Yeah. It is very fascinating to think about This and Badlands coming out in successive years Badlands is 1973 is that yes it is Yes, they feel an amazing movie an incredible film a similarly striking debut film from a better film I'll say I love that. I do as well But they do feel like twinned movies in a weird way. Badlands is obviously like a period piece. But they both have this sort of like what is up with the youth vibe, this sense of rebellion,

where Badlands also hinges on like why are they killing people? It's never really clear. They never like become malicious. You know, there is one death that sort of makes sense in terms of them trying to secure their freedom. And then you're like, why are they making this situation worse for themselves? But it is this sort of just, like, young in love,

feeling some sort of, like, conflict with the culture around you and the old institutions and being like, we want to just do shit our way. MEDLANDlands actually is 74. It was actually released pretty much at the exact same time. It's a 73 movie on like, because it was at the New York Film Festival, but it was actually pretty much released like

the same week as this movie. So you could basically see them around the same time. But I will say one thing about the parenthood aspect of Sugarland Express is really interesting and also interesting in the context of, like, the whole Spielberg deal with parents, in the sense that, like, obviously, they are not primed to be good parents,

but the sense of, like, blood people wanting to... wanting to care for this child feels, feels like sort of justifies their wrongheadedness in a way. Like they have this love for this kid, which obviously we never see in practice, but there's a sense that like, yeah, she'd do anything for her kid, even though we'd, like she obviously messed up in the past.

I mean, my read on why they make the change, that he is being, that he is escaping, right? That he is on the run before he's finished serving his time. Not just obviously it adds some greater movie stakes, but also it's like, from that decision, you're immediately like, well, I understand why they lost custody of the child, right? with some greater movie stakes. But also it's like from that decision, you're immediately like, well, I understand why they lost custody of the child.

Right? You know what I'm saying? Like beyond just the fact that obviously both of them went to jail, there is just the feeling of like watching this thought process or lack of thought play out of like one bathroom conversation turning into like, you're gonna put on sunglasses, we're going

to get someone to drive us, we're going to go pick up our kid. You're like, this is not going to work. This is so poorly thought through. You can't even really explain this. Why the sudden immediacy? And like, yes, if you wait four months and then you calmly go to the foster home or you go to whatever government office and you plead your case, you're gonna have a better chance of getting that kid back than like holding someone hostage, getting them to drive you to the door and then like negotiating with Ben

Johnson and being like, and we want our kid back. But it also adds to this, you know, even though there are no stakes to, I mean there are, sorry, no stakes is the wrong word, even though like there's no reason that they have to be acting so quickly. Like, her, and erratically, her desperation to get her child also, I think, like, endears you to her a little bit, because it's like, you know, this sense of, well, I fucked up, but all I want to do is be with my kid,

even though she's going about it in, like, the worst possible way. Well, and Badlands has the same thing, where in both cases, the couples feel like they're kind of just overgrown children. Like, they just don't know how to be grown-ups. In Badlands, Sheen is just sort of this agent of chaos, right? Like, he's just, like, doing... And Sissy Spacek's kind of along for the ride.

But he's an agent of chaos in, like, a... In a very disaffected, where he's like a boy lighting shit on fire. And then in this, Hawn is the driver of everything and Averton is kind of like, yeah, I don't know. Like, he's the one along for the ride. And she's, the one thing she is fully in power of is knowing how to use her charms

to get people to do what she wants, but it's not in some obvious, like, seductress, feminine, wilds way. It's more just like, well, she's Goldie Hawn, she has movie star energy. She's cutesy. She's cute. She's cute, she's compelling. People just are kind of taken by whatever she's saying. Yeah. So, they initially just hitch a ride, they just hitchhike. But then they get stopped. His friends' parents. They initially just hitch a ride, they just hitchhike.

But then they get stopped. His friends, parents. But then they get stopped by Maxwell Side, the patrolman, they buy Michael Sacks of JP Morgan fame. A man who I'm sure has done great things behind the scenes. And so they hold him hostage, and have him drive them. But it is the most chill, hostage situation. Yeah, it's nice. They sort of become friends.

Right. This is not a thing where they're basically just like training a gun to him on all times. At a certain point, they're basically just all hanging out together. Well, he doesn't... I don't think he really views them as dangerous. But he also is just immediately kind of like, what are you doing? Well, there's also the really good sort of establishing, like, moment with him with the sort of drunk guy in his car

before he pulls them over where you're sort of like, this guy is sort of like whatever with the people in his car. Like he's sort of tolerant of them and their weirdness in a nice way, which I think sort of sets up the fact that he's gonna be like, yeah, okay guys, like let's just deal with this and move along. So, Sam and I were kind of teeing this up

at the end of our dual episode, that this movie, much like the score is in John Williams' filmography a total, like, one of one outlier, there's no other Spielberg movie like this. And we were like, what tone is even close to this in one of his movies? And I do think like tonally, Catch Me If You Can has a similar vibe. Melancholy too, like the same kind of like light drama vibe.

And almost a similar kind of look, like color palette and shit. But Catch Me If You Can is more self-conscious obviously, because it's doing a period thing, right? And is him kind of doing a bit of an epic, like a weird kind of epic on its own odd way? But it's the same kind of vibe of like, you're like, I'm having fun, but I have a feeling this won't end well. Now Catch Me If You Can sort of has a happy-ish ending.

Yes. But it's not like, you know, he gets away with it ending. It's kind of a, hmm. But the thing he truly never comes close to doing again in his filmography is this being a hangout movie That like as we said once like 30 minutes in they're in like Saxe's car. It's a slow Chase movie. It's not like a real propulsive chase movie. It's everyone's kind of amblin along propulsive chase movie. It's a, everyone's kind of amblin' along. Amblin'.

This is. Entertainment? Amblin' entertainment. This is what I'm kind of locking into, right? Amblin' in this, do not feel insincere to me. Griffin is of course referring to the short film that he made in the sixties, this bill was made in the sixties, about a couple hippies, hitchhiking. A-M-B-L-I-N, apostrophe.

Which then he later removes the apostrophe and makes it a production company as if like, oh yeah, I guess that's the real world that means something. It's like, no, it's just ambling without the G, right? I don't think either one's insincere, but these are the kind of like personal films that directors of his generation were making at this point in time, speaking to their, the youth, right? And the vibes and these sort of like character pieces, and actor-driven pieces, and hangout pieces,

and all this sort of shit. Kind of innately not who Spielberg is. Not what he becomes, for sure. And he seems so, you know, what we know about his youth, like, so disconnected from all of that in any way, shape, or form. But he did give us a very serious, moody kid who was, like, very focused on his work.

But he lived out in the desert in Arizona. I feel like he does have some sense of that here. He moved a lot too. He lived in wildly different states. So he has this kind of sense of America. And I do say the shadow of Seth Rogen cucking his dad looms over this Sugarland Express. You hear the laugh echoing. Oh, oh, oh. Close Encounters is the movie, his third film,

where you're like, oh, okay, this has been torn out of his soul for us. Like that is, this is everything that's going on in this boy's brain. This and Jaws is a little more, both of them, they're both good movies, I take, Sugarland and Jaws, but they're both, and Duel, but they are both like, this is a supreme stylist who has grown up on a fire hose of like television

and movies, like who just has such a sense of how to deliver entertainment. So Duel is just like tie-as-a-drum filmmaking exercise, right? And then this is like character piece, hangout, like charm. The maps of dogs- But still like quietly flashing. But I also think, I don't know,

but I do think it gets at something that like has preoccupied him for like his whole career, which is like the sense of how flawed people sort of sacrifice for their children. Yes, I mean, let's get back to that, because there's a lot more to unpack in that, right? But I think like Jaws is fascinating because it's basically combining everything he figured out

on Duel and Sugar Land into one movie. Sure. Which then becomes the alchemy of, oh, can he make like thrill ride entertainment that also has this level of characterization, specificity, performance, charm, wit, empathy, what have you, right? But Jaws does feel in a way more personal

than this movie does. In a certain way, it feels more reflective of his psyche, whereas this movie feels like what you said, a story he remembers hearing on the news and being kind of compelled by, which is also how Malick talks about the Badlands. Which is like, the Badlands! Badlands coming about was him being like, that's so weird that these two kids just killed a bunch of people.

What were they thinking? Right? That he's sort of trying to psychoanalyze them? But it's also a movie that's kind of about, I don't know. Right. Yeah, like is the answer. But in the soup of his generation, the movie movie Bratz there's the story that gets repeated a lot where you know cast of eddies was a big mentor to

Scorsese and Scorsese invites him to a screening a boxcar bertha and he's like, what do you think and Cassavetes is like What the fuck are you doing and Cassavetes is basically like you're wasting your life and he's like you thought it's that bad He's like it's not bad, it's just whatever. Like this isn't what you became a filmmaker to make. This is you trying to like make strategic career moves, pay your dues, whatever it is. Like make the movie you'd be willing to die for. And that conversation motivates him to make Mean Streets.

So basically sit down and be like, what's the movie only I can make? And then Casabody saw that and he was like, F, I hate this. Total F, right? But there was this feeling a lot of these guys, it's like you're paying your dues in the Corman fields, right? De Palma is like basically coming out of experimental theater, greetings high mom rule,

but are like fairly inaccessible movies. And then he figures out like thrillers, right? Lucas is making a THX and people are like, make something about people, right? He's like, I'll try Like American Graffiti is the movie that comes out of like Coppola shaking Lucas the way that Cassavetes shake Scorsese, right? like make the thing that only you can make like what's your story and Like, make the thing that only you can make. Like, what's your story?

And Spielberg, like, doesn't know how to tell his story directly. He starts making these entertainments that are unbelievably personal and emotional because he knows how to tell it through refraction. But this feels like a distant movie that has all of his themes in it, made very warmly. Yeah. I mean, the refraction thing, like, I'm sure it's, like, impossible not to talk about, like, the fabled men's now, like, talking about him. But, like, yeah, the only way he can look at his life

is through his to watch, the only way he can watch his parents' divorce is to take out a camera. And I do think that, yeah, that he finds, even though this film has the sort of, yes, impetus of like, oh, I heard this on the radio and I think it's interesting, I think he finds this really sort of perfect, this really personal story,

which is ultimately what makes it so tragic, you know, by the end, is that you do start to feel for... feel for how much they care, despite... and especially how much Lou-Lujine cares, just despite her wrongheadedness. GIGIERA Well, he also, like... not to psychoanalyze him too much, right? But, like, this feeling of kind of what you were saying,

of, like, his relationship to his parents for so long, and what he talks about, I think, in... at this point in his life, he were saying of like his relationship to his parents for so long and we talked about I think in at this point in his life he was sort of like I could not imagine being a parent right and that's reflected in shit like the Close Encounters or watches that today and he's just like I would never do that today as a filmmaker because if you have a child you could never imagine doing that in a certain way right and I think a lot of that is like the kind of thing a lot of people go through in their twenties where they start to take the toll of the way in which their parents fucked them up.

And there's like an anger that then goes to like, the worst part of this is they actually were trying their best. I can't really villainize them. Yeah. Which is sort of the stance this movie has of like, it is so commendable they are willing to put everything on the line for the sake of their child, and yet everything they're doing is wrong,

and is actually just gonna fuck up their ability to have a relationship with their child. Yeah, it really fucks up African's ability. I'd say. Majorly. He gets shot with a gun. He's in a pretty bad position as a father by the end of this movie.

And also just, there is this sort of trick too, of that first shot of the child in the foreground and he's with the dog and he's just like crying. Also, it's Zanuck's son is the kid. But like, there's this misery to the kid and obviously the kid is probably fine with these stuffy, duffy parents, but you know, you, the fun and the life that this couple,

Lou Jean and Clovis has, is so inherently attractive. The first moment you see the kid, I believe, is like minute 47, right? And you basically have these two mirrored shots. It comes right after the porta potty standoff. And then you have this shot of basically from inside the porta potty of Goldie opening the door, right? Yeah. And then it cuts to right Goldie opens the door from inside the porta potty, she closes the door, and then it cuts in the blackness

to the kid opening the door. Incredible. And outside- Verna Field's worked on this movie, obviously. Right. The legend in the- Outside the press coming to interview the kid and the foster parents about this growing story, right?

The shot of the kid in silhouette from behind the door opening is so similar. Close encounter. Yes, yeah. Probably like the most famous shot of his. Right, except this is the first time we're seeing the kid and it's a moment of just like,

this kid doesn't know what's about to hit him. Like this kid is oblivious. But also the kid is oblivious the whole time. Like that is also the sort of the tragedy of it too. This kid has no idea what's going on. Like he's so little, like that there's just this sort of aura of trauma around him, but like we don't, but he probably has no actual conception

of what's going on in his life. But like Spielberg is so close to making this pivot to realizing a lot of his magic is the ability to tell stories from the vantage point of a child, right? And children who are cognizant at the center of this kind of chaos, and they're processing it, they're digesting it, it's changing them. Even close encounters where the kid isn't the main part. Yeah. Or does where the kid is part of the cast, but the kid is very specific.

And in some ways, I think the fact that this kid is just not really cognizant and like sort of overwhelmed and you see him crying and you know, is just being sort of shuffled from place to place also like sort of fits with the theme of the movie too. And that like, no one has any fucking idea what's going on here. You know, so, and then, you know,

and then you get back to the thing which you guys said, which is basically like, Lou Jean and Clovis are children. There's like the incredible, so Spielberg-y moment when they get in the van, what are those cars called? And they're watching the Looney Tunes through the window and you see it reflect in their faces

and Clovis is doing the sounds and you're just like, oh yeah You know, these are children themselves and they they are looney tunes characters in a way I apologize. I correct myself. You have the earlier glimpse of the song on the front wall That's what I was talking about, which is the like that first, you know, there's the shot with the dog Yeah, but that's that's foreground the kid just kind of playing innocently as the cop is pulling up in the back. And then the cop is pulling up and the kid starts like sobbing. Yes. So minute 27 is the entrance of Ben Johnson, right? And in this movie that's already taken this pivot of like, oh, how quickly they get comfortable basically being in a throuble with this cop, a non-sexual throuble, right?

Like now they're just like three folks hanging out on a road trip, you know? There's that immediate sense of like, are they like bulletproof because they have this guy on their side? They have this kind of like magic armor and now they're just gonna drive to their destination and they think they will be able to make this work and everyone else thinks like,

this is gonna end up badly somehow. Ben Johnson's introduced at minute 27, and he gets a kind of very classical movie star introduction. And he looks great. He looks incredible. And there's this air of like, here's a legend in your movie. Like, here's like a heavy hitter coming in.

And the moment you'd expect in most movies, like, okay, now the plot's really gonna kick in. Because now this guy is on the hunt. He's gonna be like a fucking sniper rifle trying to take them down. Yeah, we're gonna be bouncing between these, and this is right. Gonna be the dominant supporting performance of the movie, and he's gonna get an Oscar nomination, and it's Tommy Lee Jones or whatever, you know, in the Fugitive or whatever.

Totally. And yet, he also has this much sort of like more melancholy, wistful energy. Hugely understated performance. Totally good performance. But performance, I think. But not like a big dominant character at all. Basically kind of just does it all through nothing. You kind of get everything you need to know about this guy through very little dialogue.

Well, and also the feeling that he, it's not spoken, but that he is like, this is a tragic story. Right, that he knows right away. Nothing good will come of this. Exactly, that nothing good is coming of this. It's already a bad situation. Right, that he knows right away. Nothing good will come of this. Exactly, that nothing good is coming of this. It's already a bad situation. And like, I mean. And they either have to shoot them

or figure out a way to stop them. Right, like, Last Picture Show is one of the shorter runtime two Oscar win performances ever. He's in very little of the movie. He just has the amazing monologue. He has one amazing monologue in the first 30 minutes. As does Cloris Leachman, basically. Each of them win an Oscar for it.

Cloris Leachman is really amazing in the movie and she's all over it, but I think they both are winning for these big speeches they have that they crush, right? But hers comes at the very end and Ben Johnson, without spoiling last picture show for people who haven't seen it, is basically out of the movie at the 30-minute mark. Yeah, he is good, though.

He's fantastic. The lion, right? But you compare that movie. Sam the lion. Foregrounding him so much at the beginning, giving him one big emotional speech, and then he's gone, versus this where he's just kind of steady and stable throughout.

Yeah, I mean, he's just, he's almost not, he's just this steady hand, and you sort of, yeah, you come in expecting him to be a villain, quote unquote, maybe, and instead he's sort of as resigned as everyone else to, ah, these kids are, like, I don't, you know, I have to handle this in the best way possible, but I feel for these kids. Well, there are two takes.

There's one in which he's the villain and you wanna see our heroes out with him, right? Yeah. And then the other- But you know they're never gonna out with with them him cuz there's silly right but the way this movie is characterized with them being silly There's also a version of this at the 30-minute mark. He enters and you're like finally a grown-up Someone who's gonna take responsibility and he's gonna sort this out and we're rooting for him to find some amicable He'll solution everyone else is is running off half cocked, but he wants to cool it down and maybe get them out of this alive.

That is your hope, but then it doesn't happen. No. Get shot. He's just patiently. I love the scene where he takes down the two local dudes who have been self-deputizing and unloads their guns. And it's just like, this isn't like a game, you know? Right, right, right. And I think that's Spielberg's take, right? Is that it's like you have this

tragic little story and wrapped around it is this little circus, this media circus that, like, helps nobody. And... the movie isn't like Dog Day... Dog Day Afternoon is loud and very forceful... And political. ...and so, like, compelling to watch. And Sugarland Express never gets to that kind of fervent, polemical point. It's more just quietly saying, like... you know, isn't it a little sad how, you know, the story becomes

people almost waiting to watch these guys get shot versus trying to figure out, you know, how to help them. SHANNON No, I mean, but also, you know, the dog day afternoon thing you're saying, it's like, yes, there's this sort of, don't you want, like, yes, everyone sort of itching to watch them get shot. And it's interesting here, there's a kindness to the way people are perceiving them. Like, yes, there are the, you know, self-deputy guys who are like, you know, let's shoot them very, you know, which feel, I don't know, feels very modern in a way,

in a gross way. But then there's also this like, you know, which feel, I don't know, feels very modern in a way, in a gross way. But then there's also this like, you know, but then there's also when they arrive at the town and they're just like, they're welcomed with open arms. They become folk heroes and they become, which it's like, you know, yeah, I mean, there's this weird kindness to the whole movie about them too.

Yeah. They kind of know they're screwed. Well, and also the spirit of it is, like Spielberg reading this story in the newspaper, right? And you have to imagine he's probably reading this as a resolved story. Hey, weird thing happened. Sure, right.

He's dead, she's in jail. Maybe he later learns that she got out and did manage to get custody. I don't know. It's basically been packaged into bite-sized entertainment as a story with a beginning and middle and an end of an odd thing that happened. And that becomes the kind of thing that you can sort of gawk over. And he's making a movie that's focusing on all of the things that the newspaper would not cover, which is what are the fucking conversations they had? So wait, these three people were in a car together for how many hours, how many days?

How did they eat? So they had to go to drive-thrus only? So what, they're just hanging out and eating chicken? Like the movie is all the hangout shit. That is, well, you could just hit the big bullet points of, they hold this guy at gunpoint they get the car there's a final standoff whatever it is you know some big emotional reckoning with the foster parents or whatever and he's like no the movies about like all this stuff

in between that happened yeah and that weird reality where it's like they're basically holding existence hostage they're in this like transitory state that is not sustainable. Yeah, I mean, it is their moment of liberation, you know? Say he was in jail, she was in, we know she was in jail beforehand. You know, this is the one moment where they have this idea that they can do anything

and they're doing it with this ostensibly like good natured thing, you know, in their, in the back of their minds, which is like, let's get our kid, but it's also, it is a joyride. It is, it is fun. I mean, I'm basing this predominantly off of movies and TV shows, right? But all the scenes we see where someone's holding a bunch of people hostage inside a gunpoint and they're demanding a helicopter and a million dollars and a private island and whatever the fuck it is. I'm just like, how many stories historically are there of, as Ben would say it,

it all working out? You know, like I just figured out the situation and they never caught up to me. I negotiated so successfully that I released all the hostages. I got everything I wanted. I had political immunity and they never Islands is beautiful, right? And I'm like, you know I've seen eight trillion fictionalized completely false versions of it and versions of it based on true stories that are fictionalized and whatever but all of them end with Eventually, they just you can't outrun it, right? These weird like standoff situations

where you're in conversation with authorities and they're just trying to get you to let go. Let go of the vehicle, of the weapon, of the hostage, of whatever it is, and they'll promise you everything and you think you can gain this out to your own advantage. And it just like fucking never works out. Like maybe our listeners will write in and be like,

here are the 20 most famous examples of someone just nailing it. But I feel like if those stories existed, we would know them. So from the moment you get into this situation where you're like, the longer this goes on, you're just kind of prolonging the inevitability. How does this end? Do I fight it violently? Do I just like hand myself over and go back to prison? Like there's no version which they go like, you know what, if you let go of the car, we'll let you move into this house

and raise this child no questions asked. Because they don't kill anyone, there is a version of them being like, look, we're sorry, we shouldn't have done this. And the answer is like, well, you're going back to prison, probably with a little extra, you kidnapped a cop, but you're not gonna die and you're, you know, who knows what will...

You're not gonna die and maybe one day you'll see your kid in bed. Maybe one day you'll see your kid in bed. But you know, you know. And the logical fallacy of people in this situation is they're like, fuck, I just can't go back to prison again. Is there any other option? Is there a third option?

These are people in desperate circumstances, a movie about people where it's just kinda like, they just know like, no man, like, it kind of has to be all or nothing. it's just kind of like they just know like now man like It kind of has to be all or nothing. That's the vibe of this couple of like look either we're gonna somehow pull this off in some fantasy cartoon way we'll make it across the border and live this paradise life or What's gonna happen is what we kind of don't want to think about, but is always sort of gonna be our end. Which is like, yeah, either we're in the slammer,

or we're dead or whatever, and like, at least we gave it a shot. But it also speaks to like... Like, they're just not gonna be like, oh, you know, I'm gonna put my nose to the grindstone, and I'm gonna convince these people. No, but the larger cultural themes that the movies are really tackling at this point is the movies are trying to speak to a younger generation...

Right, who just feel without options. Who feel without options and are just like, all of this feels wrong. I want to fight against this without any sense of what I'm looking for instead, other than that I need to push past everything that's being told to me as a given. Ben, I feel like you wanted to say something. Often when people commit crimes, they're-

I was kind of trying to cue Ben up. Not really thinking it through. Exactly, right. And so people, for whatever reason, just go through with it and don't think beyond just the goal of I'm gonna rob this liquor store and then I'm gonna have money. I need the money.

Right. And then I'll figure it out. And then, yeah. Today's problem is I need money. Right. With parenting. Yeah. I'm a parent.

You are. Times three. Now, you know, there's sort of, there's the sort of gentle parenting world or whatever. And sometimes people say, like, you shouldn't say, be careful to your kid all the time when your kid is fetching knives from the stove or whatever, you know, insane thing your kid wants to do, climb the Empire State Building. You shouldn't say you think you can do all these things, Nemo, but you can't.

Wait, what are you saying instead of be careful? I'm gonna get to that, but the idea being, you say be careful, you're kind of instilling fear in them. This is what awful parenting blogs do. They're just like, watch your language in every single way, and if you don't behave this way, you're terrible. But nonetheless, instead you're supposed to say, what's your plan? Right, you're supposed to say, what's your plan?

Right? You're supposed to say, as your kid, I guess, is climbing up the couch, you're supposed to be like, what's your plan? Right? Like, so that's sort of the thing, where the kid is like, well, I want to get to the top of the couch. And you're like, you're the one who has to instill in them, like, well, what's going to happen when you get to the top of the couch?

Are you doing this now? I've done it, but I say be careful all the time because I'm a bit of a nervous Nellie. Yeah, no shit, but like, I don't know. I'm not a parent, but I think that's Nellie. Someone should say to these guys, what's your plan? But if you ask them, they would be like,

our plan is to make it to Mexico and we'll figure it out. Top of couch good. I mean, hell yeah. Top of couch good. Who are you, JD Vance? Like, raising Arizona. Wait. No, raising Arizona, I? Top of couch good. Who are you, JD Vance? Like, Raising Arizona. Wait. No, Raising Arizona, I'm just barreling past that.

No! No! Raising Arizona Griffin. He likes the inside of the couch more. Yeah, Raising Arizona. Ew. Movie comes out in the... I'm sorry!

Enough! Movie comes out in the late 80s. Yes. Kind of has a plot like this. Yes, yes it does. Obviously a much more absurd movie. It's so much more personal. Right. But it's the same, and they're not kidnapping their baby, they're just kidnapping a baby

that they kind of feel like is sort of a free baby that they can have. And that is a movie that walks you through them being like society basically is set up in a way where this is our only way to solve it. We deserve a baby, we're good people, we're sweethearts. We're just gonna go get a baby. And we're gonna figure it out. And what I love about Erasing Arizona is they kind of are doing it for a while. And then, yes, it comes apart and they return the baby

and it actually works out for them. And the ending of Erasing Arizona is so moving. But that to me is the sort of fun version of the Sugarland Express. I agree, but here's like the even more loony tunes. Yeah. The lack of a plan in this movie is what makes it most fascinating to me. Right. And yet. I bought a bag of Beetlejuice gummies, discounted Halloween candy, and they are

so addicted to them. Unbelievable. Weirdly good. So I went back to Target to be like, they must still have some more, probably even more discounted, and they're not there. And now I'm like, fuck, do I go online and figure out where to buy more of them in bulk? Because these are somehow the best sour gummies I've ever had. I don't know why. And on top of that, they look like spiders and skulls and eyeballs. Also fun.

And they come in bags with sand worms on them. There's only one gummy in each bag? I know, huge waste of plastic. I mean, I think they're meant to be fuckin' trick or treat. Even if I was trick or treating, I'd be fuckin' pissed. I agree, but I like that they're big. I like that they're hearty gummies. David! Yeah?

I've suffered a great loss recently. Oh no! A profound loss. What? Half a tooth. That's true, they sawed half your tooth off. I a cornectomy they cut my tooth in half and I'll tell you what experience like that does to a person Go ahead makes you really value the teeth you do have you want good teeth my full teeth Mm-hmm. This was a trouble tooth and so they took part of it out

But the teeth I got the good ones in there I want to take good care of them and sometimes oral hygiene can be a real pain in the keister to stay on top of. Yeah, so why don't you get yourself Quip 360. It's an oscillating toothbrush, Griffin, that's literally going to revolve around you. That's what I like. I've been using Quip for a long time, but the 360 is the kind of like round brush. Sure, yeah. So the whole thing with Quip.

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Listen, what I was gonna say, there's this weird kind of juxtaposition, I would say, of like, you know, William Atherton goes to the bathroom. She's waiting in the stall. This is the beginning of the movie, right? She leads him into the bathroom. Right. She leads him into the men's room and he's like, you gotta get out of here. Right. And he's like, what are you doing here?

And she's like, I can't wait. And he's like, what are you doing here? And she's like, I can't wait. And he's like, right here, right now. And she's he's like, I'll be out in four months. And she's like, I can't wait that long. Right. So you're like, oh, basically like unplanned conjugal visit. Right. Spur the moment. Heat of passion. They're making out.

He pulls down her pants. Great Spielberg shot of her with second pair of jeans under. He goes, there's another pair of pants underneath. And she goes, yeah, we're leaving. And you're like, oh, she did have a level of plan of wearing two outfits at once so that she could go into the bathroom and quick change and pass clothes off to him and they could walk out of there. So there's a level of intentionality of she left home that morning with that much figured out.

Well, but that's, I think that is very purposeful. It's like, she only has that figured out. Correct. She has, she has a plan. She does have a plan. But the plan ends there. But the plan ends there. And it's like, we're gonna walk out

and we're gonna get in somebody's car and then we're just gonna drive. It's the least plan I've ever seen and yet, it's not just that in the spur of the moment, she's like, fuck it, let's make a run for it. She's planned this stupid plan. She planned enough to wear two pairs of jeans and that's the end of it. It's the cake and the cartoons.

Yes. With the nail file inside of it. I brought you a cake. Right. And you're like, even if the cake makes it through... Right. And the guy's able even if the cake makes it through, and the guy's able to slowly but meticulously grind through the bars. Then what?

Then what? That's just the start of it. Has anyone ever actually done that? Has anyone ever actually seen something? Yeah, my uncle, my uncle Ken. He nail filed his way out of a prison? Yep. Is that true?

No. I don't know, I believe it. Okay. I just think of the cake escape in Grand Budapest. Well, it's a great question. Is that a thing that became shorthand in cartoons and such because there was some example. Did it happen one time?

That actually you're like, no, the origin of that is Bugs Bunny. Right, Bugs Bunny came up with that. No criminal ever attempted to do that. I still watch Learning Students with my kids sometimes and I watched this Daffy Duck one that's set in the Hollywood lot in the 40s. It's just filled with jokes about 30s and 40s Hollywood.

And I was like, this is the most inscrutable thing I've ever, all of this is flying over her head. Do you understand how important that was in printing upon me where I I like see that cartoon? I'm like, I need to figure out who all these people are. Me too. It's called Hollywood Daffy. Yes.

Uh, and it's got like, you know, Betty Davis, Johnny Weissmuller, Charlie Chaplin, Jimmy Durante, Bing Crosby, like, uh. And all the caricatures and you're like, are there people who really look like this? Yes. Jimmy Durante's nose is the size of his leg. The joke is that- Clark Gable has Dumbo ears. Jimmy Durante has a house that he's in

and there's an extension for his nose. That's fucking 100 comedy points. Yeah. He did, he had a big schnoz. Yeah, the big schnoz. So, Sugarland Express. Sorry. No, I'm just trying, like, are there plot points

we need to, it's somewhat of a tough movie to go beat by beat through, because it's shaggy. But I'm trying to think of like, what are other plot things we need to mention? I do love the bathroom, like when she needs to piss, and there's, you know, he has that frame, which where he keeps Atherton in the foreground and she's in the background

and she keeps running back and forth and she's doing her little pee pee dance. But this is what I mean about the Spielberg, like it's all storytelling economy where he's like, how do you get as much in one shot? Yeah. In one scene as possible. And it all feels so him in terms of the framing of faces

and you know, it's all there. Yeah, I don't know. They go get chicken, they go to the car lot, they sleep in the RV, which is a term I remember today. The term is runaway vacation, but RV for short. Six inch summer, is that it? Yeah, he has a six inch summer. Robin Williams gives Josh Hutcherson a motivational talk about the fact that he's picked on by the bigger kids at school

And he's like I was like you and I was you very short One year I had a sixth and summer I came back It's spread like a beanstalk and sixth and summer lives in my head forever especially because Josh Hutcherson never got anything Got shorter Robin Williams Was watching clips of Robin Williams on Craig Ferguson recently Yeah, yeah, that's that's a real we didn't know what we had we took him for granted And we took the late late show with Craig Ferguson for granted. Well, that's what I meant Oh, I feel like Robin got his flowers in his lifetime not not consistently, but across on balance. Craig Ferguson, it was just like, we let this go,

and now like the fucking late night talk shows are a graver. The shift from Ferguson to Corden. Beginning of the end. Is beginning of the end, but it's also, is that the most drastic shift in vibes, like in quality? Cause it's like from Leno to Fallon, it's kind of like, well, you know.

From Carson to Leno, right. Carson to Leno isn't great, but I guess old Carson was pretty phoned in. Right. Yeah. But Corden is just doubling down on everything that was already heading in a bad direction. Kilbourne to Stewart is one of the biggest leaps in history. People try to act like Kilbourne was good.

Kilbourne was terrible. Kilburn was so bad. I talk about a guy who had a six inch summer. Did he ever? Paul drank a water. He had to at some point. Right. He had several. Yeah.

Maybe. I just like that when- What else happens? When Atherton's being questioned by his friend who's trying to stop him from like, you're gonna fucking ruin your life. Don't walk out of here. His response is just, I got it.

If I don't, she's gonna run off. Right, yeah, that's what I'm saying. He's the one for the right. She's the driver, he's the passer. But everything is just sort of like caught up in the intensity of a moment. I don't dislike William Atherton at all. I think he's a very good screen presence

and he's fine in the movie. I kind of wish someone else was in that role who sort of popped more. There's something... There's nothing wrong with this movie. This is a good movie. So it's not like I'm like, I've only fucking, you know, Robert Redford had played that role.

I'm not saying that. But there's also something nice about him being such a zero. You know, like, she's so vibrant, and he's sort of in the, as you said, like, he's on's along for the rhyme. So like something him being like sort of a nerdy little, you know.

Can I have like one more fun character in this movie? Yeah. Right, cause it's basically like Hawn is a firecracker. Slide is pretty boring. Johnson is very compelling, but you know, it's a quiet performance. Yeah. But yeah, slide's a little boring.

Atherton, he's doing his thing, but it's not, you know, like what if there was just like, I don you know, it's a quiet performance. Yeah. But, yeah, the slide's a little boring. Atherton, he's doing his thing, but it's not, you know, like... What if there was just, like, I don't know, like a funky grandma or something? Like, just like someone else, right? But Atherton is what Ben's describing. He's just like a low-level criminal who's not really thinking. He's just kind of like driven by, like, energy. I don't think... We already recorded our Jaws episodes,

so it's not like we start the Jaws episode by being like, Steven Spielberg, after making the Sugar Land Express, was like, I need a fucking movie or a shark bite someone in half God damn it, but it does feel that way where in sugar land He's like I'm treating this like pretty realistically and this is a human movie about like people in odd Circumstances and in jaws he's like quint, and like, it's going to be big and like, explosive. Can I circle back to, this was a thesis forming in my head, right?

All this stuff about the cultural moments, looking at him relative to the other movie brats and as they're developing, right? All the other guys I said who basically had to be forced to make a personal film away from commercial instincts, and then they found their voice, right? Whereas Spielberg starts with something that feels more like a smaller, more personal film on its face.

And the other guy who's kind of similar to him in this way is Coppola, who kept doing these sort of like exercises. And it was like, no one wants these. These are not connecting. And then it's sort of like, if you don't make a hit next you're done You're like wonderkin status. Yeah, has enough with your Rambo and your rain people and it's like take this fucking beach read and make this something that works And what's weird is in the case of both jaws and Godfather? These guys find really personal ways into this material It's not just like the sort of I got to take a job for hire and just make it the best that I can Godfather, these guys find really personal ways into this material.

It's not just like the sort of I got to take a job for hire and just make it the best that I can in the sort of, let's say, Zemeckis romancing the stone thing. I just need a hit. Give me a solid script. I'll direct the shit out of it. But that feels like a job for hire for him, whereas Godfather and Jaws, those two guys found things that no one else could have found. They're working off best-selling material. So you're right, that they have that in their hands of like,

well, that's a bit of a guarantee, isn't it? Like, this is something that people have even heard of. Right, this movie's gonna sell itself in a certain way, but also it's a throw- But those are not movies where they were like, yeah, I'll just direct the shit out of it. You're right, it's much, much more expansive than that, what they did there.

They like tunneled into it, and they both were guys who maybe needed to, as I was saying, kind of refract themselves through someone else's story. I just feel like with Sugar Land, like there's just a lot of restraint with Spielberg. Not that this is, it has flashy moments, and obviously people like Pauline Kael watched it and were like, wow, this guy is a stylish filmmaker.

But it- I mean, it's so stylish, but yeah. Yes, but it is not, I mean, what are, like, let me look at the movies of 1974. I mean, and I think what that gets down to ultimately, and I don't wanna repeat it, but it's like this weird sweetness to it too, that it's like- You know, Spielberg. Yeah, which is so Spielberg-y,

but like, because I think the thing is, is when you're dealing with people like this, there's a, you know, making it flashier might mean sort of, like obviously there's a Looney Tunes element to them. So I don't want to say like cartoony in a bat, but might turn them into, you know, more over the top characters, but instead sort of the lack of flash

is just him burrowing into character. Yeah. Does that, yeah. It's fascinating because, you know, famously, Polly and Kale put her, like, chips down and was like, this is one of the most exciting debuts in movie history. Right, and then she's on Rage of the Lost Ark

and was like, hack! Dogshit. Hock-to-a. But she, like, went all in on him on this one. And you read the tenor of that review and you look at the other reviews that this movie got most people are kind of like whatever it's like some flashy thing yeah it's got moments we'll talk really together right we'll talk about it but talk about it

there was a feeling coming out of this that it was like most people were not bowled over by this it didn't even have the sort of dual like oh shit people in the industry are sitting up straight he was in a position where he needed to, coming off of this, make something that worked. This thing totally flatlined commercially. You know? And people were just kind of comparing it unfavorably to Bonnie and Clyde and other shit like this. Lovers on the run movies. I can tell you a little bit about that, but is there anything more

we want to talk about in the movie before we do that? Talk about the reaction to the movie. Should we talk about the ending proper? I mean, a thing that is funny, if you try to put yourself in the headspace of 1974. Sure. I found that in part two. Sure. Ex's chainsaw master.

But you're also like this Spielberg kid. Scheinberg's folly, right? This young kid he signed to like a multi-year deal. What's he doing? He just makes car pictures in the desert? It's true. And you look at the negative reviews for this movie and people are like, he just seems really interested in the cars.

He's this gear head. Yeah. They truly were just sort of like- Which is so weird. I mean- Because it is such a character-based humanistic... But it's got really good vehicle action in it. When it has that stuff, it's well done.

But it's, yeah, this movie is not like an Evil Caneval style, like, car phantasm... And the credits rolling over just like slide, just, you know, sitting there by the water. Similarly to the ending of Duel of the Deadest Weaver, just sitting by the cliff. It has almost the exact same to the ending Shot yeah and draws has sundown the silhouettes and just someone left to kind of process what they've just been through It's it is interesting to think that Texas Chainsaw Massacre came out the same year, which it did because it's you know True Spielberg like big-time's, Toby Hooper 10 years later, right, or yeah, about 10 years later with Paul Treguise.

But is another film that feels weirdly twin to this in certain ways? It is, yeah. But they are contemporaries really, even though by that point Spielberg was more powerful. This film, yeah, the ending, yeah, Atherton dying. Yeah, I don't know, is there anything else to say about it? It's sort of like, this is what's gonna happen. Like, it's not even some big moment, it's just...

like, yeah, someone was finally gonna just get off a shot, because they've been waiting to. I also think there's just the credit to Goldie's performance, though, too, which I do think is really, you know, like... She can't believe it. In that moment, like... Her whole world collapsed. Even though it's like, like... Her whole world collapsed.

Even though it's like everyone might have seen this coming. Everything, yeah. Yeah. But everything has drained out of her face. And she, all that light is gone. And I do think, like, you know, I do think this movie, you know, like, it does really sort of surprise you in what she can do. And I think she sort of in some ways rarely like used that full toolbox

in the rest of her career. Well, and when we did our Swing Shift episode, the fascinating thing is, you know, she demands these recuts and reshoots because she feels like she was being minimized in the movie. Her scene, Lottie was gaining attention. She wanted more of the focus on the chemistry between her and Kurt.

And then you watch the original cut that we did, and she's so much better in the demicut. He was wrong. But it's like a performance that's tonally much closer to her in the final moments of this movie. And then Goldie's sort of rock solid movie star persona from the late 70s on becomes like she seems just kind of like a ditzy funny girl but she's smarter than she seems and she's got a deeper well of emotion than she

seems right and this is not that we're like this you're watching it the whole time you're like is she crazy is she an idiot is she like playing everybody like you can't quite figure out what's driving her. And then what is so effective about that final moment is she plays it away where you immediately see, oh, she genuinely just never thought this could happen. It's pure impulse. Like every, you realize that like everything she was acting on is pure impulse.

And I think that's sort of what makes the plight of like her trying to get the kids sort of so moving too is that like, yeah, she doesn't realize this is a bad idea because she does sort of truly love her kid. And she does just want to take the, there's nothing else going on in her head other than just like that pure goal. And so it becomes so sad.

Versus like from not here on out, but shortly here after, Goldie's whole thing being like, you think she's just dumb, but actually, she has the bones to be the best soldier in the army. This is a movie where the reveal at the end, not that it's like a twist or anything, is like there's actually kind of nothing else going on. Yeah.

She's not, there's no... She's like a shell of a, she becomes a shell of a person and you're just like, holy shit. I don't know. This is not one of my favorite Spielberg movies. I mean, is it anyone's? No. But every time I've watched it, which is basically like three times in my life, like every 10 years or so, I've always been quietly impressed.

Like, you know, and I know what to expect and nonetheless. You saying is it anyone's favorite. I've relayed to you a number of conversations I've had with people when people off the record ask me, hey, who's coming up on the podcast? And I go, we're doing the first half of Spielberg. I've had a couple of people, particularly filmmakers, say, you know what fucking rules? Sugarland Express. It does rule.

And I think it's for those guys also, probably they're just so used to the imagery of his big movies and you watch something like Sugarland and you're like, wow, there's stuff to discover here. But it also feels like, and part of it's like maybe, you know, 50 anniversary stuff, but like it is recirculating a bit more for a long time. It was like only available in Spielberg box sets. I hadn't seen it. And I went to see it at Film Forum.

Griffin and I tried to organize it together, but it didn't work. But I also think it did like a big Tribeca thing. Yes, and Spielberg spoke and was like, this might be the first time it's screened commercially in decades, which I kinda feel like can't be true, but also it does feel like for a long time

it was treated as like weird early Curio. The film was tested in the fall of 73. Universal loves it. They're like really impressed with the movie, but preview audiences were shown it, and this is interesting, on a double bill with paper moon, which makes sense vibe-wise, but maybe they're also just kinda like,

I'm loving that movie I just watched, and like, okay, here's Sugarland Express, and it's like, that's not jiving with them or whatever, but it basically got kinda bad test results. Paper Moon's also just like a fucking crowd pleaser. You read the way people were talking about it at the time. Tatum, like, Dan Laugh, cute. Despite it getting Oscar nominations, people were like,

this is just sort of like popcorn fluff for the masses. Like this thing's fun, quaint, black and white. Right, about a Bible salesman. Right. Big Bible salesman. Spielberg says, you know, oh sorry, Universal executive Bill Gilmore says like, the first half audiences were with

when it was more of a caper, that's fun. And then as it starts to kind of curdle into, you know, melancholy and darkness, they would lose the audience and the ending, they would just kind of be sitting there in silence. It doesn't ever become like a proper chase movie. And it doesn't ever or becomes less and less of a Goldie Hawn picture as it goes on. Spielberg, the original cut was about 121 minutes. Spielberg cut it down a little bit, trying to kind of hone it a little more commercially.

It wasn't forced to, but he just sort of did it. They intended to put this movie out Thanksgiving 73, but because it's not testing very well, they kind of dumped it into March 74 and it made $7 million and was pulled from theaters quickly and like, meh. And it came out around the same time as Badlands and Thieves Like Us.

Oh, wild. And there was kind of this like, yeah, there's a little too much of the same thing right now. The long tail of Bonnie and Clyde of people trying to recapture that type of movie. None of those are carbon copies, but I also think Badlands was not a big hit, but it was like kind of a film festival sensation.

And there were like 50 people who responded the way that Pauline Kael responded. Where coming off of that, it was just like Malick's anointed, people want his next project, and Paramount's going like, what's the most ambitious idea you got? Whereas coming off of this, Universal is not like, great, do another one of those.

Universal's like, you gotta figure out what your thing is. And it's, I think the reason we've been saying that a lot of filmmakers now seem to be rediscovering and finding a new love for this movie is it is this kind of like fascinating sliding doors glimpse into like what if Steven Spielberg wasn't forced into becoming Steven Spielberg and in a way what he became feels like the most honest reflection of who he was meant to be right imagine a path in which this movie you could imagine this movie making 14 million dollars and the

studio being like cool you make youth pictures. And he just stays there for a while. He could sort of turn around there. I mean, Spielberg Recollects, you know, that period when it was supposed to come out, you've got Exorcist, The Sting, Papillon, American Graffiti, Serpico, these like big movies, you know,

with big stars making a lot of money. And by the time Sugar Land came out, he just kind of felt like an afterthought. The fact that it was like, oh, based on a true story, it's like, that's not that juicy a pitch. Right. There's another movie saying that. It's about a guy named Leatherface.

The story's a little bit wilder. Now, the title of the movie is very subtle and will not grab your eye. Wait, you're telling me this shit's true? Um... Texas Train's the funniest based on a true story where it's like, what's the true story? And they're like, well, like, some people have killed people in the past. Murder exists.

It's kind of about Ed Gein. It's not, like, remotely about Ed Gein, in that Ed Gein also used human skin. That's like it. Anyway, Spielberg, this is a good quote, says, after Sugar Land, I learned how important marketing is. I think it's as important as making the picture. And that is part of the Spielberg thing, without a doubt. He says if he did it again, he might make it differently.

He might have the first half really be focused on Ben Johnson's character, Captain Tanner, and have everything sort of from inside the police part of it and don't see the fugitives until you get to them later. Interesting Spielberg-y kind of swerve. It feels like a late Spielberg thing, in the sense that it's like, it's like, okay, like a Bridge of Spies type of thing,

or like, you know, it feels like, you know, procedure and authority feels like something, yeah, like he would definitely do later in his career. It also feels like Spielberg's still being haunted by the energy dip from test screening audiences. Little, yes. Still 50 years later trying to game out, like, is there a way I could have kept them locked in

the whole time? Because starting with Jaws, he becomes the guy that, like, straps you into the roller coaster and you're with him. Pauline Kael, after a few jabs about how, you know, she's not sure if Spielberg is actually smart and the movie is commercial and shallow, but she's like, composition seems to come naturally to him

as it does to some of the young Italians. I assume she means Marty and Francis and Brian. It's not like American. Spielberg uses his gift in a very free and easy American way for humor and for physical response to action. He could be that rarity among directors, a born entertainer, perhaps a new generation's Howard Hawks. The thing with Pauline Kael,

where you're reading her reviews, and it happens all the time when you read them, where she's like, eh, this piece of shit. And then four sentences later, she's like, I don't know, maybe it's the next Howard Hawks. And you're like, that guy was pretty good. Look, I also like a pretty good comparison for Spielberg. It is, he is. I mean, she's right, I don't know, maybe it's the next Howard Hawks. And you're like, uh, that guy was pretty good. Look, I also like a pretty good comparison for Spielberg. It is. He is. I mean, she's right.

I genuinely get goosebumps from that sentence as a pill to just be like, God, the degree to which he fucking nailed it. He just was fucking right. The only thing she's wrong about is by the time he makes like Raiders of the Lost Ark, she's like, pooh. Ah, he's just treading on his own jokes and this is airless. And you're just like, Pauline, what's the matter with you? Who like stepped on your feet today? I wish I could go in a time machine and show Pauline Kale red notice.

Yeah, exactly. I'd be like, don't you understand? Yeah. Don't you mean red one? No red notice. Both red ones. Either, all. Wait, what's red notice?

I'd love to show the Babelmints. I forgot what Red Notice is. Esther, that's so weird because you're a professional entertainment journalist that you forget Red Notice, the most watched movie in the history of movies. That's the Netflix one? It's Dwayne Johnson, Ryan Reynolds, and Gal Gadot. Eight trillion minutes watched every episode. Where there are like all are thieves and cops?

I can't remember. I watched it. I did not watch it. I'm bad at my job. Esther, that's mathematically impossible that you didn't watch it. Everyone watched it every day. Okay, okay, okay.

The film, one best screenplay at the Cannes Film Festival, which people forget, came out in March 1974, at the end of March 1974, Griffin, and it was not charting. Number one at the box office is the Best picture winner of 1973 the Godfather part two no Oh, oh, oh, oh

Huh, it's not French connection. No It is that I believe is 71 1973 No, it's not midnight cowboy. I'm trying to think the the early 70s winners. Uh, that's 69, I think. Oh, you're right. But it wins in 70. Okay, so it's not... What's the movie that wins in between the Godfathers? That's what I'm trying to... David, in fact, that's what I'm trying to remember.

The movie that wins in between the Godfathers. It was a gigantic hit starring two major stars... I'm fiddling with the room. Uh, it stars two major stars. It's stars, who made the stars? It's the sting. The Sting. One of the highest grossing movies in history. I was just rewatching.

Adjusted for inflation, the sting made like. It's right up there. Made like 20 billion dollars. I mean, Thanos was in it. He was. Huge hit. It's been out for four months or whatever and it's still completely crushing it. Number two at the box office is a big flop.

It is a musical film starring someone who didn't make a lot of movies. Interesting. It's based on... Based on a musical. Is it mahogany or lazy? No, no. But when you say someone who doesn't make a lot of movies, is it someone like that who is primarily musician or singer? No interest the other medium of

performance comedy Television star of a TV star not that she didn't make movies, but oh, it's Mary Taylor Moore. No fuck Nope, and it's not Lucille ball and he is me Lucille Ball and Mame. That's exactly what it is. And what we got there. Her last role. Lucille Ball's last film role. Right. She didn't make a lot of movies. Now she did tell J. Edgar Hoover to go take a hike though.

Yeah. And everyone applauded. Or whatever. Someone did that. No, it was the opposite. J. Edgar Hoover said, I like you. And everyone went. And everyone was like, yay! You haven't seen Juror number two yet. No, maybe tomorrow. It's crazy that you haven't. It'll be old business by the time this episode comes out,

but I'm sitting there watching it and made me so retroactively angry that J.K. Simmons got an Oscar nomination for being the Ricardos. I'm like, J.K. Simmons should get four acting nominations just for Juror number two. He's so good. That's exactly what you want him doing. Yeah, he does a Chicago accent. Oh my God, David. That sounds good. You're gonna nut.

I'm gonna nut, I'm already nutting. Number two is Mame. Number three is the film that the sting beats to best picture that is another of the Adjusted for Inflation, like highest grossing movies of all time. That's not, it's not The Exorcist, right? It sure is. It sure is.

William Friedkin's The Exorcist. Yeah. Which is good. Was Exorcist the expected winner, or was Sting just a juggernaut? I think the Sting was a juggernaut, but I think that was a pretty hot Oscars because The Exorcist was such a like hot button sensation.

And you had two of the highest grossing movies of all time. Yeah. That were like humongous cultural phenomenons. And then you've got three, the other three biggest movies of all time, Cries and Whispers, A Touch of Class, and American Graffiti, which was a big movie. Yeah.

That is funny though. No, it's a really good five. To have like three full on blockbuster. Sting, Graffiti, Exorcist, Cries and Whispers, which is a wonderful nomination, and then Touch of Class, where you're like, yeah, they had to have a British thing. Right. But it's not the worst movie.

Two austere European emotionally devastating films, and then three raw looking hits. I've never seen Touch of Class. Yeah, it's a good movie. Yeah, it's a good movie. Yeah, it's Touch of Class. I've never seen Touch of Class. I watched it for my book.

Exorcist is a far better film than The Sting, in my opinion. But I get it with The Sting just in terms of, like, the vibes were great, right? I mean, like, right? I mean, everyone had a good time. Tinkley piano, cons, hats. Things slowly transitioning from daguerreotype into real image. That's good. That still gets me. People were losing their shit number four the box office so Bradford would have been Captain America and Paul Newman would be Tony Stark. Yes, he would if if Robert Shaw is Thanos, right? Right sure and Marvin Hamlisch is our

St. Right number number four it's a Adventure action adventure movie one of the drunkest films ever made One of the drunkest films ever made it's an action adventure movie. I'm just assuming It's not like Kelly's heroes or something like that. No. That was probably a drunk one too though. Is it a war film though? No, no, it's not. It's not. One of the drunkest films ever made.

Does it have a lot of old British theater act? Correct. A lot of Brits. It's got a lot of Brits. Including one who was just like a walking barrel of wine. Oliver Reed? Correct. Okay.

Ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. But one of those guys with like, he was really famously drunk. You're like, that guy? Are you sure? Nothing about him reads that way. I mean, I just love like maybe twice a year, I read the Wikipedia entry on Oliver Reed's death during the filming of Gladiator.

And they were like, he's uninsurable. If he has one more drink, he'll die. And they hired a body man to watch him at all times to make sure he didn't drink And then he was found dead at a pub sitting next to his body man And they were like you had one job and he was like I was never gonna stop He died doing a drinking competition and they were really The guy was basically like what did you expect and everyone was like yeah, we press no charge He had like an accountability The guy was basically like, what did you expect? And everyone was like, yeah, we pressed no charge.

He had like an accountability buddy. It was, I believe it was truly David Hemings who is in, another great British actor who had been drafted into that. And he was like, yeah, I'm sorry. I don't know, man. And you're like, what, he died of old age? No, he was 27.

I mean, Oliver Reed is one of those things where you see him in Gladiator and you're like, oh, he's like 75 in this, right? And they're like, no, he's like just turned 60. Denzel now is 15 years older in Gladiator 2. Right, like he could like have sex all day in that movie and does. In the movie? He really is very good in that film.

He's so good. In a film, I think is totally fine and entertaining, but like he is just sort of... He's so good. You see we got the bucket after? His little bye. Yeah, so good. In a film, I think, is totally fine and entertaining, but he is just sort of... He's so good. Did you see we got the bucket after? His little bye. Yeah, it's a good... The bucket's good. I haven't seen the movie, but I'm a big fan of the bucket.

It's a good bucket. Anyway, what's this movie? It stars Oliver Reed. Oh, okay. Oliver Reed, drunk adventure film. Action adventure. Can you give me, is there another subgenre? Is there a setting?

Swashbuckler. Oh, is it Three Musketeers? It's the Three Musketeers, a film I've been working on for a while. I've been working on it for a while. I've been working on it for a while. I've been working on it for a while. I've been working on it for a while. I've been working on it for a while. I've been working on it for a while. Can you give me like is there another subgenre is there a setting is there a swashbuckler? Oh, is it three musketeers? The three musketeers a film I've seen I don't remember very well, but I've seen both it and the four musketeers But you know, it's just it's not just that it's like Oliver Reed and stuff It's like Oliver Reed and Richard Tamer and they're you know, they've got their hats like wow fuck you

Waving swords around. These are not like, yeah, these aren't really like, nuanced performances. Raquel Welch? Yeah, Raquel Welch. I've never seen those. People love them, right?

I think now they would probably play a little like, stiffer than we think. I feel like there's been a bit of a reclamation project recently on them. Well, cause Soderbergh is so fond of the Richard Lester sort of vibe. I think Tarantino loves those movies. They shot on a really unique film format too.

Oh, Drunk-O-Vision? I was going to say they just poured Brandy into the camera. Beer-O-Vision? They used a beer bottle as the lens? Oh boy, alcoholism is a serious business, except when it's British actors from the 60s. You can't say that while I'm already laughing. Then it's funny because now they're all old and or dead. So it's like okay, you know. Remind me who the four were. Oh, in the three musketeers?

Michael Yorke as D'Artagnan, Oliver Reed as Athos, Frank Finlay, the great Frank Finlay who recently died, as Porthos, and Richard Chamberlain as Aramis. Who is American? Richard Chamberlain. But, you know, kind of in that world. Love to pull the cork. You know, I've been mis-attributing that for years. You have, you've been a... Or I have.

One of us has been mis-attributing the speaker of that line. Yes. Because Deacon Matthews is in the scene, but he doesn't actually say it. Deacon Matthews is the one who she negotiates with. And he's amazing in that scene. And I already forget the name of the actor, it says Paul DePauw. But it's my favorite actor of all time. My favorite performance in movie history.

Number five in the box office, I already mentioned it. It's a big drama with some big stars, big long movie. It's a big long movie. Is it Touch of Class? No. It was a big hit. It was like a big long movie. Is it cut for class? No. No. It was a big hit. It was like a big expensive film. I think of it as kind of a boring movie, honestly.

Interesting. But it's- Major director? Yeah, yeah. Kind of, yeah. I mean, yeah, major-ish. He made some big movies, including this one. Two huge stars.

Kind of boring. Two huge stars. Dalton Trumbo wrote the script, so it was a wet one. You think it's- Two huge stars. Kind of boring. Two huge stars. I've always thought that. Dalton Trumbo wrote the script, so it was a wet one. He was in the bathtub. Mine could be click. Splish splash. Click click clack.

Dalton Trumbo wrote it, you think it's a male and female star? No, two boys. Two boys. It's a boy movie. Big boy movie. It's a big boy movie. The movie is a teenager that boys would tell me rocked and I'll be like

It's okay. Really? Yeah, it was remade recently like in completely irrelevant Lee Teenage boys loved it now, but that's a kind of a bad clue. Yeah, cuz I feel like I'm just it was remade Irrelevant Lee it's in the last ten years in the last ten years. I'm gonna give you it's a prison movie Oh, Peppi. Oh, what I mean, I'm gonna give you a hint. It's a prison movie? Oh, Peppium. What, I mean, I'm not wrong, right? Yeah. Kinda boring.

It's interesting. Well, he disagrees. Wow, he completely disagrees. It just goes on a bit. Yeah, it's got cool stuff and they're good. Yeah. I've told that story on the podcast about Steve McQueen smuggling the Coke

and the tires of his luxury sports car that he made them fly to the island. It rings a faint bell, but I'm not sure. Well, I've ruined the story. You sure have. Yeah. You just told it. It was Dustin Hoffman recognizing

that's the level of star power this guy has. That he demands they fly his sports car so he can drive it around the island in between. Right, and he's like, oh, ho, ho. And he was like, that's a power move. And it's like, no, the car is the packaging system for the cocaine. He can snort this car.

Yeah. Number six in the box office, I just wanna say, is a, I think, Hong Kong action movie called Bloodfingers. Looks fun. Cool. I don't know how that's in the top 10, but it is. Bloodfingers. You've also got Serpico. You've heard of that one. Cool. I don't know how that's in the top 10, but it is. Bloodfinger. You've also got Serpico. You've heard of that one.

Yeah. A good movie, although lower on my 70s, Luma and 70s Pacino. But it kinda rocks. Yeah, no, it does kinda rock. It just kinda rocks that it's about a guy who's like, I don't wanna be a cop. I wanna be like kind of a dirty hippie guy.

Peter Serafino, which would always shit talk Serpico. I've had this conversation with him like 15 times where he's like, you know a movie I don't like? I want to be like kind of a dirty hippie guy Peter serfino, which would always shit talk serpico I've had this conversation with him like 15 times where he's like, you know, I don't like Serpico and I'm like really wine because annoying God I love the movies right. He's right. I mean like Serpico's in the right infamously annoying. Yeah, it's annoying movie. He's right. He is right. I mean, like, Zerpico's in the right. Infamously annoying. Yeah, it's annoying that he's so right. Number Eight is a movie I've never heard of, starring Elliot Gould and Robert Blake, the

mystery man himself called Busting. It's not Bustin. Yeah, yeah, that's the Hymes movie. I don't know that movie. Yeah, it's a Hymes movie. It's a cop movie? We talked about it in our 2010 episode a little bit. I don't remember.

Good name? I've never seen it. It's a gold blind spot for me. Do you think it makes them feel good? In the 70s, Bustin' didn't really make anyone feel good. Number nine at the box office is the great Blazing Saddles. Gunna might have my favorite comedy of all time. Good call. And number 10 at the box office is a major flop of the year,

the Great Gatsby. Oh yeah. Jack Clayton's terminally dull, nice looking. Just one of those inexplicably inert movies. Yeah. And that's why when people shit on the Lerman movie, I'm like, I don't know, man, that movie is fun and moves. And you can see the really boring Lerman movie. Right. I've seen it 1,000 times.

I think if they try doing four more Broadway musicals, they're gonna crack. But at the same time! Okay, apparently the one that was in Boston was good. Right, the other one that we haven't gotten yet. The one that's currently on Broadway is Garp. But apparently the other one. But is the other one gonna transfer or is it?

I think, yeah, definitely, probably. Definitely probably. It does seem like the bad one made so little impact that they can probably just have another one. Also the one from Arda's has music by Florence the Machine, so it's probably a little bit, it is more grabby. Sounds like the dog days are over. Mm. Here's the thing that's interesting about this current era of David Sims we're living

through. This current era of David Sims? What's the great thing of what? David, you are admittedly pretty stress and sleep deprived at all times. Sometimes you have 90% less tolerance for my jokes than you usually do and other times you are so susceptible to them. Very amused by that. I'll throw out just real weak tea and it'll break you.

You do seem, David does seem, just to place this episode, real tired all the time. I think that's not gonna change for a little bit. And you know, previously you've always been considered a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. We'd be alone. We're done. We're done.

We're done. I think David said to me recently, when I asked him, how's it going? He said, hanging by a thread. Yeah. We're living through good times. Esther. Oh yeah, buy my book.

Buy her dang book, folks. Buy my dang book, if you want to. The link's in the episode description. The link's in the episode description. By this time, I will have had a wonderful launch, hopefully, with David Sims moderating. Where's that happening? The Strand, I emailed you about it.

You gotta check your email. Ben also got it, and Ben acknowledged it. It's on December 3rd and it'll be fun. We're gonna go drinking afterwards. But- I did respond. Okay, I'll shoot you right now. Ah.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. But yeah, I am proud of that and it's, I think it's fun. I think it's a fun, fun little read. Is it the dumb question you've been asked a trillion times? I've maybe asked you in the past, what your, do you have a like sort of perfect rom-com in your mind?

Not even favorite. I saw you're doing a Philadelphia story. Yeah, that's my favorite. That's, yeah. That's my favorite. I don't know, perfect is so hard. Is there one that you just think is like, I mean, it might be Philadelphia's story,

but it's like- I do think that movie's brilliant. The sort of like ultimate example of what you like or want out of the genre. Roman Holiday always ends up real high on my list. It's a really good movie. Sabrina always ends up really high on my list. Yeah. We're both horny for Bogie.

Actually, and Bill Holden too. He's hot. Yeah. We're both horny for bogey. Actually, and bill hold him. He's hot. We, yeah. But bogey. Bogey in that Sabrina mode. You don't see it enough. Yeah. I just never can process how short he was.

He's a little guy. But he's one of those guys where just on screen, it doesn't make sense. And then you hear that he was like my size. So those are, those are obviously, obviously, I think. Oh, a great pick. You know, the Nora is like, when Harry is pretty boring to pick, but I do think it's pretty perfect. Kate Leopold.

Kate Leopold. Someone like you. Raising Helen. Yeah. Is there a third Hugh Jackman or Uncombed? Oh, you just like the Hughes. Is there a third? X-Men Origins Wolverine.

Oh, beautiful. Him and Dominic Monaghan. Well, there isn't, right? Yeah, I mean, it's just so annoying where it was like, let's get this guy in some rom-coms. They make, Caitlyn Leigh pulled which Loki rocks, someone like you, which is fairly anonymous. And then they're kind of like, yeah, forget it.

Like that era is over. It's the thing we talk about a lot, that he was like in the last generation where they were trying to do the conventional movie star track of like, we got to get you in one of each. We got to build your audience piece by piece. And then they were like, what if you're just Wolverine? And then every 10 years you get to catch him.

That's what I'm saying. Like it was basically like, if you do six Wolverines for every six Wolverines, we let you do your own thing one time. And then greatest showman work. I just love the premise of a someone like you, where Ashley Judd's like, someone dump me. Greg Kinnear, fucking dump me. And Hugh Jackman plays a guy who's like,

well, man are pigs. Yeah, he's like, man are pigs. And she's like, oh, you, I can't listen to you, handsomest person who ever lived. And he's like, all right, I'll just sit over here. And after a while, she's like, you wanna fuck, baby? And you're like, yay! And then it's like, roll credit. I'll just sit over here. And after a while she's like, you wanna fuck, baby? And you're like, yay! And then it's like, roll credit.

That's a Tony Goldwyn picture? It is. Yeah. Pretty funny that it's a Tony Goldwyn movie. I don't really know why. That movie is fine. And then The Last Kiss, that movie with Braff, is so fucking excrucible.

That you were like, banish this man from filmmaking. And then he just had like an incredible second wind as like a hunk once again. As sort of a hunk for moms. I went to go see The Last Kiss in a movie theater because I was so excited about the new Zach Braff picture. That really makes me feel like a piece of shit. No, but it was like his first big move post-Garden City. Oh, 100%. I was like...

Zach has something to say. It has his fingerprints all over it. Like that Braff clearly was like, here's my iPod, I'm doing the soundtrack for this movie and all that. It's so bad. Anyway, yeah, not a good movie, but there are a lot of good movies in my book,

which has also some nice pictures. Can we restate? I just always like this game, especially as now we're firmly in our 10th year of the podcast, the Esther Zuckerman blank check cannon is. I'm not going in order here. The little mermaid, the piano. I'll do going in order here. The Little Mermaid. Uh-huh. The Pianer. Uh-huh. I'll do anything. Regular musical cut. Yeah. Uh, Gone Girl. Uh-huh. Sugarland Express. Uh-huh. I feel like for a while you were like,

you guys saddled me with the bad movies. You were getting the big one. My first one. Uh, well, Aloha, which of course is about the sky. Am I forgetting another one? We can't see the sky in here, it's so dark. I do think you've successfully, you've won back the narrative. I have, I have, it's really nice. You've now covered more good films than bad.

I know, next time you can give me a piece of shit. Oh, get ready, you're gonna get a fucking stinker. Yeah, next time you can give me- Let's tell him Shad Yaxworth's movie. No, I'll refuse, just kidding, I'll always come up. Yeah, next time you do... What's Tom Shadick's worst movie? No. I'll refuse. Just kidding. Evan Almighty.

Yeah. 2025. Get on the arc, baby. Get on the arc, baby. No. You're welcome to give me a piece of shit next time. They are fun. I've had some real nice luck, though.

Doing some good ones. You're one of the best. You're the best, Esther. I don't mean that to sound sarcastic. You are. Yeah, you sounded like, wow. You're the best, Esther. She says. Yeah. that to sound sarcastic. You are. Yeah, you sounded like, wow. You're the best sister. She says so.

Yeah. Jugglerland Express, great movie. Woo. Next week, Jaws. Woo. Never heard of it. What's up with that one? Yeah, and just a pre-warning,

that one's kind of more of a mini, so we just didn't have much to say about it. Who's on your Jaws? Timothy Simons. Timothy Simons. Aw, fun. The great Tim Simons is back to talk about Jaws in what is... Definitely these 20 minutes to talk about her text styles. There's a lot of text talks.

But a lot of very on topic conversation with the movie Jaws in what is, jokes aside, a very long episode. Yeah, it's long. I don't know. Fuck you. Hey! Not you, the listener. You don't like it? Listen or talk to her. Let's see how long those are. How long those episodes are.

How much do you think she talks about Jaws per episode? Is she complaining that we're talking too much about other shit? I don't think she does. It looks like she does about an hour. Yeah. I would guess she's maybe never seen a movie. Well, she's seen like parts of movies.

Yeah. Then she's probably seen like The Lion King. We're still waiting to hear back if she wants to do Empire of the Sun. Come on, she's seen like parts of movies. Yeah, then she probably seen like the Lion King We're still waiting to hear back if she wants to do Empire of the Sun Come on, she's seen a movie Usually I have my dad on Empire of the Sun, my dad fucking loves Empire of the Sun Really? Yeah, my dad loves Empire of the Sun Well, it's one of my dad's faves

It's between him and Hayley Welch, so Yeah Tell him to work on his pay Okay, I just typed in Hayley Welch movie? I typed in talk to his favorite movie. Yeah, like just calling her Callers of the girls and Google's AI which to be clear. I don't think should exist answered that her favorite movie is the jazz

I'm just trying to think of like this sort of computer brain. Which one? Which one? Which one? Which one? The 1927 one. The sort of computer brain fart that would lead to it being like, I don't know, it's kind of just the first movie with talking in it would be the answer to that. Does talk to us sound like jazz scatting? What is the math they're doing? Well, that's, I think. Oh, talkies.

Yes, I believe that's what it're doing. Well, that's, uh, I think. Oh, talk talky. You're sorry. I believe that's what it's doing. It wasn't like choosing between the old time and now. Think of no more appropriate way to end this episode. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Tune in next week for Jaws, a very successful film.

Yep. Big one. Over on the Patreon, we're doing our Spielberg bonuses, covering a lot of his early short films and TV work, and of course, most importantly, we are finally tackling the Jelly Trilogy as commentary. And as always, from the bottom of my heart, I implore all of our listeners to spit on that thing.