Blank Check with Griffin & David - True Lies

Episode Date: October 29, 2016

Griffin and David this week discuss 1994’s action comedy remake, True Lies. But how does this film relate to Cameron’s marriages? Was the character Spencer Trilby, played by Charlton Heston, an intentional Nick Fury rip off? Just how gross is the interrogation scene? Join #thetwofriends examine Jamie Lee Curtis’ career, the BAFTA awards, the Flintstones movie and balloon metaphors. Plus, the return of Yarnel!

have you ever killed anyone, but they're all podcasts. That's a terrible Arnie. It's not Arnold, it's Yarnel. I don't know what's going on. Do you remember Yarnel, our friend? Oh yeah, Yarnel, right, right. We said he was going to be a recurring character on this podcast. Right, he was... I'm a Yarnel.

We forgot to do all the Yarnel jokes. Well now it's coming back, baby. All right, Yarnle time. Here we are. Blank check, colon, the return of Yarnle. My name is Griffin. My name is David Sims. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David.

It's a podcast where we study filmographies. We like looking at careers of directors in the macro, charting a little narrative of what happens when someone has massive success early on, and then they get a blank check. I would say that with every miniseries, we leave a tapestry. Yeah. Wouldn't you say that? It's like a constellation of stars,

separate stars that we tie together into some larger, beautiful picture. Using star rope. Yeah, except it says stars, they're checks, and sometimes those checks clear, and sometimes those checks bounce, baby! Yeah. But we like to find a little something good in every movie. Sure. This isn't a bad movie podcast, and if you say it is,

hey now, you're wrong. Wow, we sure took it to them, whoever they are. Sticking it to the man, taking it to the streets. Oh, okay. No, I don't know. This is a miniseries.

It's called Podinator Judgment Cast. It's about the films of one slippery wet James Cameron. Absolutely. Yes, the wettest director there is. Now, I know what you're thinking. That's the greatest title I ever heard. Let's leave it there. No, there's more.

There's more. Podinator Judgment Cast. What more needs to be said? There's more that needs to be said by us on microphone today. What needs to be said? What am I... We're going to talk about True Lies today. Oh, the movie. The specific movie we're talking about today is True Lies.

I just think our title is so bad and I just like making fun of it every week. I think it's the best. True Lies is the film that we were talking about today. 1994. Remake. James Cameron's only remake. Is it his? I'm trying to, yeah, yeah, it is, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Um. Oh, except Avatar is a remake of Frank Gala. That was the joke. I mean, fucking, yeah, whatever. I was debating whether to do that or the Pocahontas, and I thought neither one was worth the energy. Uh, yeah, right. Well, yeah, it's a mashup. Yeah, Avatar is a mashup. This is a street remake.

Of a 1991 French farce. Called La Tautelle. Do you think James Cameron saw it? Maybe, or someone might have described it to him. Yeah, right? Yeah. And... He wrote the movie himself.

He must have. He did. But that was the film we're talking about today. 1994. The first film under his Lightstorm deal. His $500 million deal with 20th Century Fox. Right. Have we said the title?

We did. True Lies. True Lies. True Lies. So, yeah, as we sort of covered in past episodes, Cameron makes two big movies of Fox. He makes Aliens and he makes The Abyss, right? One's a big hit, one's a disappointment.

He then goes to a weird group of financers and independent studios to make Terminator 2. Sure, distributed by TriStar, I believe, right? Right. But Kuroko is like the- Yeah, but Kuroko was the production company. And the Terminator rights are weird. We've discussed it on our two Terminator episodes.

They really were. Yarnel. Yes. Hey, Yarnle. Yes. Hey, Yarnle. How did we not do Yarnle stuff on T2? I know. We forgot. And here's the crazy part.

It's not like we didn't have enough time. So the running time, by the way, on True Lies is a comfortable 141 minutes, and we are not going to hit that one on this podcast. No, absolutely not. 141 minutes. Come on, James. Yeah, one. No, absolutely not. 141 minutes. Come on, James. Yeah, well, there's a sexy spy farce. Yeah.

So here are a couple of things to think about. Be like the length of Amistad. Like, come on. It shouldn't be the length of other James Cameron movies. That's the real problem. And it also this was at the time it was made the most expensive film ever made. And there's no reason for it to cost that much other than the fact that it was James Cameron.

He only works up. I guess so. And they blew up a bridge in florida or something there's a version of this movie that could have cost 60 million dollars yeah whereas there is no version of avatar that could have cost 90 million dollars do you know what i'm saying uh for sure i'm i'm looking at the budget of mission impossible 3 which was less than True Lies like 12 or 13 years later. And that movie has way more set pieces and looks more expensive and has Tom Cruise in it. I'm just thinking of them because they both have that long

bridge attack. Sure, sure. Anyway. But he makes The Abyss. It's a disappointment. He makes Terminator 2. It's humongous. And Fox wants him back. They want him back, baby. And they go, hey, Lightstorm Entertainment, why don't you set up your shingle here on the 20th Century lot? We'll give you $500 million.

Has this deal been fulfilled, by the way? I was thinking about this the other day. He's only directed three movies since. Yeah. But I assume some of the movies he produced were part of it as well, like Strange Days and Solaris? Perhaps. Oh, because both of those were fox as

well i i think i i assume like that i don't know i don't know i don't know um i think the original deal was for 500 million dollars and five years if i'm not mistaken 500 million dollars in five years yeah that's you sure it wasn't five projects i'm'm going to look this up. I think it was five years. Because he made the two films within that 97 and 94. God damn it. All this shit about Avatar's budget comes up. Okay, whatever. Who gives a shit?

The point is, this is the first film he makes. They give him this deal at Fox. He goes, first thing, remember Abyss, that movie you were, the one movie I made that didn't do well? You're going to give me more money to finish it. And they went, oh, fine.

Right, they gave him a little bit, a few million bucks to just remaster and re-release and finish the ending of the Abyss. Yeah. They gave him like three quarters of a million dollars, I think. And then... You're really digging into this. Yeah. Carry on, carry on.

I haven't been able to find much information about what drew him to True Lies or how it happened, but it kind of felt like watching it just sort of feels like he was like, I'd like to make another thing with Arnold. Yeah, it is funny. So T2, he makes T2. T2 is the biggest hit.

It's huge. It's humongous. It makes a gazillion dollars. It costs a ton and it makes a huge profit. I don't know. You can't really be superlative about it. Right. It makes a gazillion dollars. It costs a ton and it makes a huge profit. I don't know. You can't really be superlative about it. Right. It sort of cements Arnie as one of the biggest stars in Hollywood, certainly one of the highest

paid. Yeah. So all that, it's logical that he would make an action movie with Arnie again, right? Yeah. Very logical. What's not logical is James Cameron doesn't usually make a logical decision like that. No. Usually the next thing he does is sort of like a weird left turn,

and you're like, oh, why is he making an undersea alien movie? Anyway. Here are a couple things I'll say about this movie. One is it's the only movie he's made that feels like a career move to me, right? Yeah. You could argue that Terminator 2 as a response to The Abyss was sort of a career move. Yeah, I think so. But what he made Terminator 2 into is such a weird choice.

Sure, but I think. But this is. So this is a for them type movie? I guess so. I mean, it's just when you think about James Cameron, and that's what this podcast is about. Wait a second. Okay, yeah, go ahead. I'm in the middle of a point, goddammit.

What was your point? This doesn't seem to be any of the shit that he's interested in at all. Agreed. Can I make a point? Yeah. I think that was the voice of a producer. Oh, yeah. No, hey, I just added my two cents. Producer Ben? Yeah. The Benducer?

Hey, guys. Purdueer Ben? The Poet Laureate? I did write poetry in college. Mr. Positive? Wait, you did? Come on, that's breaking news did it did it did it poetry corner band's poetry corner do you still have any of it of course oh okay so did you write it for girls or did you write it for to like sort of spill your soul onto the page uh i wrote it for girls for sure. I was a tortured soul. Guys, I just know Ben.

Okay, so let's just paint a picture. Ben, dirt bike, slingshot in the back pocket. Wait a second. No, no, no. That's teen Ben. Dirt bike Benny. Dirt bike Benny, which is teen Ben. One day if we release a series of action figures

of all of Ben's phases of life. Which we plan to. We're in negotiations. College Ben is like emo tortured. No, no.'t don't don't label me emo sorry i'm sort of like i'm like a tortured punk okay yeah all right sure you're a tortured punk and so then what's post-college ben because that i imagine you like hanging out at punk shows and being into like the DIY scene or something like, right? Yeah, I mean, I was. To me, you're like the Emilio Estevez in Mission Impossible.

You know what I mean? Like you've got kind of weird glasses and I don't know, just sort of a look. Yeah, I definitely had a look about me. I was sort of like into graffiti culture at the time and was like, yeah, I don't know, running around causing trouble. Ben really has lived a thousand lives. It's unbelievable. I mean, I don't know. I just have always been interested in new experiences, trying new things.

Well, like, you know, being the tiebreaker. Yeah. Being the fuckmaster. Having birthdays. Birthday Benny. I get a birthday every year. You do remember birthdays, don, you know, being the tiebreaker. Yeah. Being the fuckmaster. Having birthdays. Birthday Benny. I get a birthday every year. You do remember birthdays, don't you? Now, can you confirm or deny, have you ever been Professor Crispy? Never. Never.

Okay. And let me just check my facts here. It says here that you have graduated to certain titles over the course of different miniseries. That's true. Okay. So just let's get a quick true or false to all of these, okay? Get all the diplomas out and go through them. Okay.

Producer Ben Kenobi? Yep, that's correct. Kylo Ben? Yeah. Ben Aichamalon? Oh, right, yeah. Ben Sey? Mm-hmm.

Say Benny thing? Dot, dot, dot. Correct. Okay, and one last question. If we saw you on the streets, how should we greet you? You could always say, hello, Fennel. Oh, hello, Fennel. Yeah.

Well, hey, this is a movie that I watched, and fuck, I love it, man. 1994. I wish I could live in it forever. There's some great computers in this movie. Yeah, Ben, before we started recording, was just like, man, 1994. Remember how it smelled, guys? Remember the smell of 94? What a weird guy Ben is.

The best we got. All right, that's enough about Ben. So, True Lies. I love you, Ben. Yeah, we love you, too. I love you, too, guys. Ben Hosley. Okay, True Lies, 1994.

It just... Does James Cameron care about, like, secret identities and marriage and things that are funny? He's not a funny guy. He's not a funny guy. He's not a funny guy. I was so excited because I've seen this movie with a new lens since we've been doing the James Cameron miniseries. This is like a weird divorce movie.

Yeah, that's kind of true. Kind of. So he's married to Linda Hamilton when he makes this movie? Let me get the, because I remember The Abyss, of course. Right. It does seem like he's wearing his heart on his sleeve. Yeah. No, this movie he makes this movie? Let me get the, because I remember The Abyss, of course. Right, is the Galen Hurd. It does seem like he's wearing his heart on his sleeve.

Yeah. No, this movie he makes in between marriages. Okay. So now I assume that he is dating and or living with Linda Hamilton. And he's already had a child with her,

but they're not married yet. Just trying to figure it all out. So, you know, he was married to Galen Hurd and we talked about that. Correct. And that's The Abyss is sort of about that.

Then he's briefly married to Catherine Bigelow. Oh right, that happens. From 1989 to 1991. That happens at that time period. Yes, okay. And they break up, but he still works with her and helps her make Strange Days. Which is part of his Lightstorm deal. Yeah, and that we'll one day

talk about on this podcast. Right. So then he has the kid with Linda Hamilton in 93. So that's post T2. They have Josephine. He's on production in this pretty much. Most likely. Yeah. And then they got married.

They started dating pretty much around T2, 91. They got married in 97, but broke up almost immediately. The marriage ends in 99, but they broke up eight months after getting married. Yeah. She's with him at the Oscars, and I think it's pretty much done at that point. That's a weird timeline. They break up, you know, because at the Oscars and I think it's pretty much done at that point. That's a weird timeline. They break up, you know, because he gets married and I think he'd already been having an affair

with Susie Amos, he later admits. Yeah, probably on Titanic. Well, yeah, they met on the side of Titanic or something. Maybe post, but like they met there. Now he's been married, of course, to Susie Amos since 2000 and they appear to be a stable couple. It's his longest marriage, yeah. Amos since 2000 and they appear to be stable.

So this is maybe he's commenting on the workaholic life and how it had wrecked three of his marriages. I don't know. I don't know the details of him and Catherine Bigelow's marriage very well. I don't either. He's a complicated guy.

He's a complicated guy and it's hard to get a read on him because he doesn't open up about his stuff when I call him and just try to catch up I do think I mean I think this is the central point and I should mention quickly Gerard Milligan is not on this episode we'd previously promised that he was going to be on this episode

scheduling difficulties where a group of busy men with multiple plates being spun each respectively and collectively. Yes. Jor-El will be on our next miniseries. We'll find a place for him. He's overdue as a guest

and we're excited to have him on. And apologies for, once again, Urbaniac-style calling the shot and then failing to follow through on it. Thanks for the burp, Ben. I do think this is the only film in his filmography, if we don't count Piranha 2, because he only sort of half owns it, right?

Yeah. I do think it's the only film in his filmography that could have been directed by someone other than James Cameron. Probably. Every other film could only be a James Cameron movie. But nonetheless, he's bringing lots of Cameron to the table. But I know what you mean. But you know what I'm saying.

His obsessions don't seem to drive it in the same way yes and yeah and even sort of the the technical explorations on a filmmaking side you know that are usually like he's the only guy to be able to push the technology to do this kind of thing this movie isn't breaking any barriers other than in how much a movie could cost sure i also think on a similar page it's the only James Cameron movie that might have been better had someone else directed it. I think James Cameron brings some interesting stuff to the table. I want to build up to my point.

I'll reveal it later of who I think could have directed the idea. It better be someone who was big in 94 or else I'll be mad at you. It is. Because you can't go ahead and say, you know, Brad Bird. No, it is. I have the right answer. I have the right answer for who should have directed this movie instead. This is a weird movie. I also think it has a very strange star and for the story

it's trying to tell and that it is all the more successful because it you know it's all the more impressive that it works considering Arnie and it's kind of I would say kind of a good example of what Arnie brings to the table even though he's so wrong for this role. Yeah. Like, on paper. I almost think the movie works in spite of Arnie. I think anytime he has to do something that isn't an action scene, the movie gets really clumsy.

Well, it's just the classic Arnie conundrum where they start casting him as sort of all-American goofballs. And it's just so insane to do that that you almost admire it. You're like, yeah, okay, I guess Arnie's normal. How did they pull that off? I mean, when I was a kid, I didn't even blink an eye at that. He is not a normal person. He's not. He's huge.

He's busting out of his frickin' button-down shirt, basically. Well, that's the problem with any- Sorry, I was caught at work, sweetie. It's just like, you just never buy it. He's so boring. He's this giant man. I could never believe that he'd be a spy. My old boring husband, Harry Tasker?

Come on, he's such a- I think that's the inherent problem with this movie. It is sort of the Incredibles joke. Yes. Except, of course, in the Incredibles, everyone knows, you know, in his family, at least knows that he is really a former superhero. But at the very least in the Incredibles, he's gained a lot of weight. His hairline's back. He looks so sad.

Well, animation helps, obviously, sort of exaggerate. Exactly. But you go like, this guy's huge, but he also doesn't look like how he used to look. This sort of central issue in casting him is like, you look at Jamie Lee Curtis in the movie, right? And transformation is a big element of her character and her performance. Where like at the beginning of the film when we see her and you're supposed to believe that she's sort of a wallflower, you know? And that she's kind of like a quote unquote boring housewife who settled into some sort of suburban domesticity. Right. You know she's still Jamie Lee Curtis.

You do. You're very hyper aware of the fact that she's like making herself more boring and dressing herself down. Right. And it's like a heightened sort of character performance. It's totally fine. It works. You're on board from the beginning to the end.

And it reads, you know, you understand the coding of what's going on. There's no question. Whereas Arnold Schwarzenegger never shifts his posture, any outfit he's wearing. You know what I'm saying? But this is what I'm saying. It's so ridiculous that you almost love it because it is just so nuts that he does. You're right. And this is my problem with the movie.

We barely see him in beaten down husband mode. And I think that it's partly maybe because they don't want to sell it. I think so too. But I also feel like my issue with this movie, it's a movie I'm really on the fence about. I teeter back and forth. And watching it last night was only the second time I'd seen it. The first time I saw it, I just went, oh, fine.

I was probably 15. I love James Cameron. I mean, certainly for some of my friends, this is a movie that was just in heavy rotation. A movie they loved. I love James Cameron. I mean, certainly for some of my friends, this is a movie that was just in heavy rotation. A movie they loved. I've seen it this is probably my third time seeing it. I've seen it. It's on cable. I've seen this a lot. I mean, it's a real Ben movie.

It's a real Ben movie. Me and my friends were really into this. Feels like it could have been a Ben's choice. It could have been on a long list of Ben's choices. I agree. It's like it's all the things that we could check off. It's like dumb action movie that's easily digestible.

I agree. I do think but it's also really long. I mean that's the other thing. It's got this weird It's too long. It's the Cameron 5 act structure thing. It does. You know? I mean it's

it's all wrong by today's hollywood standards you would never make a movie this with this plot today yeah you could make the same exact movie uh like you know the same premise right i feel like they do right i mean i just feel like we've seen now we've seen this premise so many times right like yeah maybe more on tv but you know the guy's a super spy and his family doesn't know you know or vice versa yeah whereas so and you would think it would go kind of like you know i guess the movie sort of follows that structure but then it just has this weird long middle all the from bill paxton's introduction all the way through to basically the finale or at least the final act because

bill paxton's introduction to that's an entire act of just them that whole chunk you're like wait what what is happening it's a five-act movie i mean say the opening set piece is an act in and of itself i didn't take a stopwatch to it but i don't think jamie lee curtis enters until like 35 minutes into the movie i think the whole opening mission and then seeing him with tom martle and all that stuff i don't think he gets home until after half an hour into the movie. I think the whole opening mission and then seeing him with Tom Arnold and all that stuff, I don't think he gets home until after half an hour into the movie. That sounds about right. Right? Okay, then there's like half an hour of like, you know... I'm trying to remember

exactly. You don't even see her? You do see her. I don't think you see her until there's the dinner scene. Am I wrong about that? Or when he gets home and gets into bed with her. That's the introduction is when and gets into bed with her. That's the introduction is when he gets into bed with her. Wait, so what's happened before then? All the stuff at the sort of... The whole

fucking opening mission. It's not half an hour. There's no way. Really? Yeah, no. That's at least 20 minutes. No, no. That's like the opening. There's the opening set piece and then we do see him at home. Tom Arnold shows up and makes 50 weird jokes about Eliza Dushku and then we jump into another set piece. The opening's really long.

No, it's not. Yes, it is. What? No, it's not that long. Yes, it is. Like 20 minutes, right? That's pretty long. Eh.

What happens in it? Come on. He swims underwater. It's like five set pieces. That's the thing. It keeps on extending, then he goes around, and then he has a little conversation with T. Career. He does the dance.

And then he leaves. He infiltrates. I mean, look, I can't argue this because I didn't take a stopwatch to the movie. You shouldn't T. Career. He does the dance. And then he leaves. He infiltrates. I mean, look, I can't argue this because I didn't take a stopwatch to the movie. Shouldn't have taken a stopwatch to the movie. Yeah. I don't think it's, I can't remember either. I mean, whatever. The movie is very long.

There's a whole chunk of like the banalities of like, not the banalities, but just sort of like getting you acclimated to his work environment, seeing how it works. Charlton Heston is Nick Fury. That's a weird choice. Right? It's not a weird choice if he then shows up back later. But when you see him, you're like, oh, okay. Charlton Heston's the boss.

Maybe he's going to be a bad guy. And he's on credit. He wasn't in the advertising material or anything. He's credited in the movie. But he's not in the opening credits, I think. He was on the poster. He was in the trailers. I swear he's in the opening credits. Really?

And Charlton Heston? I'm pretty sure. But again, I would... I just know I was looking through the advertising material and he wasn't present in any of it. He's definitely not. I just... No, but he is credited in the movie. Okay. You know, it's like Eliza Dushku, Grant Heslov,

Charlton Heston. No, I think he gets the answer. It's funny if he was sandwiched between grant heslov and like one of the one of the terrorists yeah it just like i mean the whole section of him trying to figure out what's going on between her and bill paxton takes a really long time so we're going to talk about that but yes that's where they even activate on the mission and then there's like the fake out ending before you get to the final yeah 20 minutes with elijah you don't know what the movie's conspiracy you you know, like you don't really know what the bad guys are after.

They're just kind of bad guys. They also drop them for 45 minutes. They drop them for a long time. I think the weirdest thing about revisiting this movie, and I feel like we're now both sound like we don't like it, and I do actually enjoy the movie. The weirdest thing about the movie is just that when the Bill Paxton stuff starts you're like, oh this is just gonna be like 10 minutes, right?

This is just a little detour, like a funny little thing and then it kind of takes over the movie in a way you don't totally understand and it takes way too long for the movie to let go of it. Well, here's the thing. It's simultaneously my favorite and least favorite part of the movie. Agreed. Yeah, I know what you mean. That section of the movie is kind of at odds least favorite part of the movie agreed the movies that section

the movie's kind of at odds with the rest of the film yeah but i think it's kind of interesting on its own sure i think bill paxton's character is really interesting i think paxton's very good oh my god he is such a good scumbag such a good scumbag um but what is interesting about it is for that chunk of the movie that's like middle 30 to 40 minutes i'd say it's like a solid 30 minutes right where it's mostly about like you start suspecting i mean and longer if you then include the sort of interrogation of her yeah which i'd include yeah all the stuff that comes after right um it it pretty much becomes like so so this is my thing with this movie i think this movie is teetering right on the edge of being like a very self-aware satire right it's like is everything problematic in this movie and i don't mean problematic even

just socially i mean like cinematically right uh but also both both i just want to make it clear it's not exclusive to one idea or the other okay is everything that is problematic in this movie self-aware and satirizing the inherent problems in action movies of this ilk and in sort of fragile masculinity, which is what causes. But you want more. That's the problem. Yeah. And James Cameron obviously is not master of laughs, right? Yeah.

He's never been a very funny guy. And when he does comedy, he does it broad. It's like a diffusion. It's very broad. Like, is there anything in titanic that is funny yes you laugh at things right but that's supposed to be funny like that's just a straightforward joke that stuff you're like it's oh that shit's like the like the spitting something picasso when it hits the iceberg though it's so so funny. The Picasso joke is a perfect example of what we're talking about, where you kind of go

like, huh, okay, I get it, but you don't laugh. And then Avatar, too. Yeah. I mean, I laugh at stuff, like Giovanni Ribisi scrolling too fast on the 3D map, but those are weird. He's not a funny guy. Well, the difference is, okay, in action films or horror films, genre films that are mostly based on tension, the idea is map. Yeah. But like those are weird. Like he's not a funny guy. Well the difference is like okay in like action films or horror films

genre films that are mostly based on tension the idea is to use comedy as like a bit of a diffusion. Right. To release some tension before you load some more back in.

So it's the difference between like someone who's like a master of balancing tones. I'm not saying saying this as a criticism of James Cameron it's just not what he

excels at. Right. Sure. But someone who would like, you know, someone like Hitchcock, right? Where he's got like really sort of sharp, subtle humor and also has like this sort of cranking tension. Sure, but I'll, yeah, go ahead.

He maybe never ties off the balloon. He holds onto it and then very slowly at certain points lets go a little so a little air comes out, right? I think when Cameron makes a joke, he literally sticks a pin into the balloon and air comes out really quickly. And then they have to like put the finger over it. It's a good it's a good metaphor. Right.

And in this movie, you're like, well, this whole period, especially like at this time, we're kind of at the peak of it, of like this arms race between Schwarzenegger and Stallone that was so based in like sort of who had the bigger dick right and like whose movie had more I don't know it's all pre-Michael Bay

who could fuck more attractive women right this is when the star was still auteur and the shift is with Bay it becomes

the director is the one but beyond that with Bay it becomes yeah it's spectacle first there is a weird sense of irony to it, even if you're not detecting it, because it's just so stupid. Right.

But, like, yeah. I mean, I guess with Bay comes like Hollywood's like, oh, these movies don't need to even be good. We don't even need to write a script, probably. Right? Yeah. Just, like, set piece, like, we'll just plan eight giant set pieces. And the other interesting thing.

And I like Michael Bay in some ways. I do too. And I dislike him in other ways. I do too. His impact on the industry is fascinating. But it is crazy that Bad Boys is 95, right? Yeah. So I really do think you're seeing people like James Cameron.

You're looking at me putting my hand on the wall. I am. It's interesting. At this point, I feel like I've done all I can with an action movie. With just a straightforward action movie right and like so then like these other guys

are sort of rushing in to fill the gap Bay being the best there's so many bad ones like Simon West or right yeah I don't know

well the thing I find interesting about Michael Bay is that his protagonists are largely beta males yeah right

yeah like he makes these movies that feel like Stallone Schwarzenegger movies in terms of attitude no but there you but there's a guy who have a huge chip on their shoulder right but it's nick cage in the rock or it's shia labeouf in the transformers movies even you know martin lawrence i was gonna say a hundred percent but i mean ewan mcgregor in the island this is the other thing will smith is kind of a beta male and an alpha male right i mean he finds that balance

better than anyone. Forgetting just the Michael Bay movies. He's probably the best leading man that Michael Bay ever had. Men in black. Someone who's a tough guy, but it's also really funny the whole time. Like he's always kind of undercutting himself, but he's also really cool. Like, and he just like can always keep those two things going at the same time. Well, Will Smith is kind of our bridge to the modern perception of masculinity and leading men.

to the modern perception of masculinity in leading men. He's sort of the guy who gets us from Stallone and Schwarzenegger to today's Bradley Cooper or whoever, where it's like you can't just be McKeysmo. Totally, totally, yes. And even someone like Jason Statham, part of his thing is that he feels kind of vulnerable. He's got this quiet, whispery voice. Schwarzenegger does love playing with his machismo in his

own weird way in his own weird way and this movie definitely does but only to a certain extent I just think at this time that is all reached a peak where these movies are odes to these guys masculinity right and then this is a movie about

like fragile masculinity it's about the panic of that. Right. So the whole Bill Paxton section of the movie is essentially and you're gonna be angry at me for using this word. But the whole section of the movie is this horror movie where it's like, OK, the whole first chunk we've watched him deal in like really high stakes life and death situations. He's a real action movie. But also where he's just like, yeah, this is my job. Exactly. He never loses his cool. It's work a day. It's blue collar. It's clock in. It's clock out, right? The Bill Paxton section is the only section where he's like suddenly like in an emotional panic

and it's because the greatest threat for this character is being cuckolded. Absolutely. But, and I think that's interesting. My problem with the movie is that it doesn't fuck with him enough for that fear. I agree.

And it also feels like it kind of is taking his side. Too much. I agree. It's taking his side too much. It doesn't feel knowing enough. And he pushes things way too much. And all he's getting is pushback is Tom Arnold occasionally being like, I don't know, man, like this seems a little much.

And he's like, we just have to do it. He's like, oh, OK. And then finally, the movie does hand off to Jamie Lee Curtis. And to me it he's like oh okay and then finally the movie does hand off to jamie lee carter's and to me that's a good move i agree and i like it once it does that but it takes it takes a little while to do it well the problem is he's an actor incapable of showing vulnerability i mean and we don't mean that it's like he doesn't want to i think it's just actually i think it's very tough for him to do It's very tough to sell him as a vulnerable person. Now you can do it.

Now you can because he's older. Because now he's kind of old and broken down. Right. But at that point in time, I mean, just physically, there's a problem with Arnold Schwarzenegger movies where the test for whether or not to cast Arnold in a role is would any time that character walk into a room, would someone go, wait, who the fuck are you?

You know? Like if the plot of the movie would get slowed down by logically character should be asking who the fuck he is and why he looks that way. And he's wrong for the role. And this movie, he's so he's the least. But that's that's the Arnie magic, isn't it? That's the thing. I mean, that's the catch 22. And so it's almost like this movie is trying to analyze his star persona in the same way that Last Action Hero does I think this movie is more well executed than Last Action Hero but Last Action Hero is a more interesting idea

of how to deconstruct him this is a better movie so let's get to the plot those are the main themes I want to lay out just about the two stars we talked about Arnie a lot in T2, but just to reiterate, you know, before this he made

Last Action Hero. That's a bomb. The same year Junior comes out. I think it does okay, but That's 93? It's 94. 94, okay. The same year as Oh wow, crazy. Junior comes out. Gets really bad reviews and I don't know. And then I think as we talked about, everything after that is Arnie and Sirius the Clown.

Yeah. Eraser, Jingle All the Way, Batman and Robin, End of Days, Sixth Day, Collateral Damage, Terminator 3, Governor. Yeah. You know, and so we talked about it in T2, but for this really, it is the end of like. Yeah. This is the last big one he has. Yeah. Now, what's Jamie Lee Curtis been up to?

Jamie Lee Curtis. I mean, out of the gate strong. You go Halloween, Trading Places. Halloween, The Fog, Prom Night. We forget she was in a lot of horror movies. Yeah, I did forget that. Terror Train. Jeez.

Halloween 2, although she's only in that. No, no, she's in that. She's in that. Yeah, no, she's straight up in that. And then Trading Places. Trading Places was her first non-horror movie. That's 83 and Halloween is 78. So yeah, after a few years as being

a scream queen, like, whoa! She's so funny in that movie! She's so hot! She's like a star, right? She wins a BAFTA award. Wins a BAFTA. Very... Best Supporting Actress, which is weird. Well, because the BAFTAs used to be fun and different. The BAFTAs really... Look back at the 80s and early 90s. They gave out... They did whatever the fuck they wanted.

And do you know who they gave Best Supporting Actor to that year? I'd have to look it up. I can tell you who it is. Please. Denholm Elliott for Trading Places. That is an interesting choice. They gave both of their supporting trophies to Trading Places. That movie was huge in Britain. That is so

funny. Because I would even think if you're going to give a supporting trophy for Trading Places I'd maybe go Donna Mesha more than Denzel Elliott. That's the year Educating Rita and Trading Places sweep the Baptist. What the fuck? Because Educating Rita wins picture, actor, actress.

That's the thing that people don't talk about is before 2000, every award show used to have different results. Well, because this is the thing. The Baptist wasn't televised in America. So who cares? And even when I lived in Britain, the BAFTAs had the movie awards at the same day,

the same ceremony as the TV awards. So you would have like Educating Rita, Best Picture, and then like Coronation Street, Best Soap Opera. You know, like everyone was just there and it was kind of dorky. And then they turned into an Oscar precursor and I think that just ruined them they all start getting screeners and I don't know like yeah and then like you look at something like

if you look at the history of like the independent spirit awards before they were televised and before indies broke through the Oscars so they got covered they made so many cool choices like Spalding Gray was nominated for best actor for Swimming to Cambodia who would think to nominate right but it's like it's a monologue film that's such nonlinear thinking have you seen all the doc now this year are you like I'm a little behind? Right, but it's a monologue film. That's such non-linear thinking.

Have you seen all the doc nows this year? I'm a little behind, but I think it's probably the best show on television. I agree. Yeah. It's extraordinary. Yeah, I can't recommend this whole season enough. So Jamie Lee Curtis,

and then she does her comedies. She does Trading Places. She does Perfect. Not really a comedy, but funny. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. She does A Fish Called Wanda. Right. Great in that.

Yeah. Gets a BAFTA nomination and a Golden Globe nomination. Yeah. BAFTAs love Jamie Lee. And she got a Golden Globe for True Lies as well. She never gets the Oscar. She won the Golden Globe

for True Lies, which is crazy. Yeah, but they put her in Best Actress. Best Actress in a comedy. Yeah. She's the lead, I would say,

in this movie. I agree. Sag put her supporting and she didn't get the Oscar nomination, which I think might have been an issue. Weird category shit there. But yeah, she's in Blue Steel, which is directed by Catherine Bigelow, so maybe that's one way she's getting in touch with Cam.

Sure. I would guess that's probably it, yeah. Yeah, she's in My Girl and Forever Young. So I feel like, I guess at this point, she's transitioning out of comedy and more into, like, mom territory. A little bit. More into, like, 30s actress.

Sure. An actress in her 30s. Yeah. Where Hollywood starts being like, yeah, let's get you in a house frock. You're boring now. I'm always interested in, like, movie star in their... Which is not fair, I just want to be clear.

Yes, I agree. It's not a good thing i agree um movie star in their third decade is always interesting you know if you've been able to exist in three separate decades she's only 28 when she makes this movie are you serious isn't that crazy wait how's that fucking possible she was born in 1958 oh no i'm getting it wrong. I'm sorry. I'm totally off. Yeah, thank you. She's like 36. Yeah, yeah.

There's no way she's 20. I just was doing the math and I was like, wait, what? That's, even for Hollywood, outrageously sexist. No, I was going to say, because from late 70s to early 90s, she has now stepped foot in three different decades. If you're able to bridge different sort of cultural trends. I mean, I was talking with past and future guest Richard Lawson the other day about how interesting I find this phase of Tom Hanks' career.

Even right now, Tom Hanks? Right now. Because he's gone through so many different phases and he's found his sort of new footing. He's had to evolve in all these different ways. Mid-2000s Hanks, where he's struggling to figure things out, is a really interesting thing. Right.

We're now in like the fourth decade that tom hanks has existed in as a leading man and uh what i find interesting about it is he stripped away all the tricks and he's become really good at playing people who are really good at their job without any theatrics because on a level tom hanks is just so good at his job. That's his persona as a person. He exudes a sort of quiet, calm confidence and control. You know? And like Sully, Bridge of Spies, Hologram for the King, Captain Phillips. Yeah. It's interesting.

Right. He has... All right. He's found his groove again. Three or four of those were, you know, out of four were very successful. Interesting. Jamie Lee Curtis is now in her third major phase. Right? Yeah. But it's a weird nebulous one. It hasn't totally found footing yet. out of four were very successful. Jamie Lee Curtis is now in her third major phase, right?

Yeah. But it's a weird nebulous one. It hasn't totally found footing yet. And it's not going to, I feel like it's not going to make it. No. No. Because after True Lies,

it's like she doesn't even really make, she makes House Arrest, which I don't even know what that is. Oh, right, with, yeah. Who's the fucking dad in that? Evan Pollack. That's what I was going to say. Jeez, right. With the, yeah. Who's the fucking dad in that? Evan Pollack. That's what I was going to say. Jeez, right. And then Fierce Creatures,

the sort of quasi-sequel to A Fierce Child Wanda that is not funny. Right, which is a big flop. I mean, it's not a sequel that just has the same cast. Right, and it was sort of thematically, it was trying to be their runaway bride. But it's really, have you seen that movie? No, I haven't.

Fred Skepsi directed it? Yes. Yeah, weird. And then she makes Halloween H20 20 years later. Which was a big hit. Which was a hit and is a fascinating movie, even though it's not quite as good as you want it to be. But it's such a good idea where they're like, forget those other Halloween movies. That was all a bad idea.

We're just going to make a sequel to Halloween 2, right? Like, let's just pretend like this is a J.B. Lee Curtis series. Which, you know, I've talked about it a little bit in the Jack Reacher series, is one of the things I love about the Godzilla franchise. Because do you know the Godzilla franchise does that a lot? Sure. Where they're like, this next one is just going to be a direct sequel to. They've made like six Godzilla 2s. Sure.

They made six films that treat every other Godzilla film. That's almost like comic books. Yeah. Where some new guy comes in and is like, well, the thing I like is this. Exactly. So can't we just do this again? Like, go back to this. I just love that there have been like six times where someone's gone like,

I'm going to make a film that's the first Godzilla attack since 1954 because I'm an artist who wants to put my spin on the Godzilla thing. And then I feel like that's a big hit. Then in the 99 she makes Virus. Huge flop. Huge flop. And I feel like that's it for Jamie Lee Curtis as an above the title star. Okay. Let's talk about Tom Arnold. Well, I just want to it for Jamie Lee Curtis as an above the title star. Okay.

Let's talk about Tom Arnold. Well, I just want to say she has one more big movie. Freaky Friday. Thank you. Fantastic movie. Which she got some Oscar hype for. And she got a Golden Globe nomination. Right.

She's so good in it. But that is a mom role. Yeah. It's definitely, you're right, a big starring role. Right. With Lindsay Lohan, obviously. And it was a big late summer surprise hit. Huge hit.

But I don't think- And it was supposed to be someone else who dropped out the last second. Annette Bening maybe? I believe you. Jamie Lee Curtis took over like a week before and then she got like the best reviews she'd gotten in a long time in her career. Because she's incredible in the movie. Yeah. But nonetheless that's not Disney thinking like oh here

we're going to have a big Jamie Lee vehicle on our hands. But the thing is after that I think there's an attempt to do the fourth wave of Jamie Lee Curtis which is mom and family comedies and the other ones don't work. So Christmas with the Cranks. Right. She did that Kristen Bell You Again movie, which is Kristen Bell's mom. I mean, that's basically it.

She actually has sort of stopped working. She's largely retired from acting. Apparently she was in Veronica Mars, the movie. I did not see it. Because I think she's friends with Kristen Bell. She's on Scream Queens right now the TV show and she has a recurring role she has a couple episodes a season New Girl

which she's really good on she's always funny on New Girl she plays Zoe's mom yeah we love her she said she doesn't really want to do movies anymore she's kind of largely retired and of course she makes yoga commercials which she's great at she's a star I mean as someone with poop problems it you know it means a lot to me to see Big Star up there talking about their own poop on television.

And then now Ben wants to talk Tom Arnold. More like Tom Yarnel. Tom Arnold. He is so gross in this movie. He really disturbed me in this movie. I mean, we could just do a flyby, but Tom Arnold. I didn't like it.

Tom Arnold, stand-up comedian, right? Starts sitting Roseanne Barr. I think she's out of the first marriage where she had all the kids that the show was based on,

that the sitcom was based on. Yeah, to Bill Pentland. Right. Or whoever, who she was married to for like 15 years or something. Right.

And then she marries Tom Arnold. Right. And then from 90 to 94 they are married and they are like bizarrely like tabloid material well and here like the other factor is that a lot of made a lot of people resent tom arnold and tom arnold in my household i was raised as like this guy fucking sucks like my dad would always go like he was like a notorious monster right yeah but the other factor is he's the worst. Because he was like a notorious monster. Right. Yeah. But the other factor is she finds the stand-up who's like a middling stand-up. She marries him. She hires him on the show

as a writer and then puts him in as an actor marries him. Exactly. Like she it's she pushes him up the ranks of Hollywood. You know?

Kind of quickly. Like he's in the writer's room and everyone's like this guy's not qualified to be head writer and she's like okay head writer. Like she keeps on like promoting him. Sure, sure, sure. You know now he's a regular writers room and everyone's like this guy's not qualified to be head writer and she's like okay head writer like she keeps on like promoting him

you know now he's a regular on the show now he's the star of movies and then they like hosted SNL together it was like she was so big and she made everyone

have to take him if you want me you gotta take him Roseanne's crazy I mean the story of the TV show Roseanne is crazy but they also

they were doing a lot of drugs they were certainly drinking a lot and they were, I think they were doing a lot of drugs. They were certainly drinking a lot. And they were like hypersexual. He got a tattoo of her on his chest. He got married a couple times since. I just want to say, in 2009, he's now sober and whatever. He got married in Maui to his fourth wife, who I think he's still married to, yes.

Dax Shepard was his best man. Shrug. I have nothing for you. Why? I don't know why. David's not even shrugging. He's waving his arms in the air like Howard Beale in Network. He's losing his mind.

So before this, he'd been in some movies, I guess. He's in Coneheads, not Conan. But he's in True Lies, and I feel like at this moment, people are like, oh, Tom Arnold is like a comedy star in the making, right? We've got a Tim Allen on our hands or something, right? This is going to be like a crossover success. Well, this is actually, because I listened to his WTF. Oh, I did not.

Cameron cast him. Cameron thought he was funny. Tom Arnold at that time, public opinion of him was so low. Everyone was so tired of having him hoisted upon them. Already at that point, opinion of him was so low. Everyone was so tired of having him hoisted upon them. Already at that point people were sick of Tommy. Yes, 100%.

Sorry Tommy. So they actually kept him out of all the advertising for the movie. He's not in the advertising. But the advertising is just Schwarzenegger's big face. But I'm telling you

they consciously were like people don't like Tom Arnold. They did a test screening. He tested through the roof but they were like people don't think they want to see him. Right. The audiences like him in this movie. So that was like the big thing was they like hid him from the movie. And then people liked this performance.

People liked him in the movie. It did well. And then they tried to make him a leading man. And that was a conclusive failure. Then he's in Nine Months. The Stupids. He's in Big Bully. Carpool.

I can't believe we're doing this. He's in Touch, whatever that is. I don't know. He's the and in that one. But that's the big run of leading performances. Excuse me, McHale's Navy. Oh, McHale's Navy. Oh, I love that movie.

He pops up in Austin Powers. He's really good in that. I rewatched Austin Powers like a week ago. He's really good. Is he show number two who's boss? Yeah, exactly. He's the cowboy in the bathroom next to him in Vegas. He is funny.

He's really good in that. And then I think it's finally like, okay. Out of here. That's enough Tom Arnold. And you don't see him again. I mean, he's in stuff, but I think of... Yeah. Okay, fine.

I don't remember. I think of Happy Endings, the Don Roose movie, which is like him, where you're like, oh, who knew about Tom Arnold? Right, here he is in a dramatic role. By the time Austin Powers came out, he had had enough successive leading man flops in a row that I remember being there in the theater with my dad

when Tom Arnold came on screen, he was like, ugh. And it's just a cameo, and he actually does a good job. My dad was like, you know, the best thing I can say for that movie is they actually made Tom Arnold funny. Sure, right. Like, I think they probably shot a cameo, and he actually does a good job. My dad was like, you know, the best thing I can say for that movie is they actually made Tom Arnold funny. Sure. Right. Like, I think they probably shot that cameo being like, Tom Arnold, high tide raises all ships.

And then by the time it came out, they were like, we got to overcome. High tide raises McHale's name. That's what they told themselves in pitch meetings. That's what they told themselves. Anyway, he plays Gib Gibson. Yeah, who's gross. He is Arnold Schwarzenegger's partner. Which makes no sense.

Yeah, he's kind of chubby. Yeah. He drives the car. He's very everyman. Very everyman. He's the guy in the van who's like listening on the headphones and helping out. He's like a henpecked sad sack. But he's got like way too much self-esteem in this movie.

You know what I mean? Agreed. I feel like part of the joke is supposed to be like, oh, yeah, he's like kind of the schlubby partner. But I don't know. He's making a lot of weird sex jokes. A lot. He just sort of seems really high on himself as a secret agent, which I guess, I mean,

he is a secret agent. I guess he should be proud of that. I guess own it, Tom Arnold. I don't know. And I feel like- He's just a creep. I feel like in real life, secret agents look more like Tom Arnold than they do like Arnold Schwarzenegger, right?

And if you want to make a movie about that point, then that's fine. And I think this is an issue with the movie. It's like, of course spies become glamorized by movies but I think in real life they're just kind of fucking guys like Tom Arnold. Sure, maybe. But it's very jarring when you have the guy who's like maybe the real world version of a spy

up against the guy who's the most fantasized, like cinematic version of a spy. Right the guy who is the most fantasized like cinematic version of a spy right the one guy who like can't move cannot like slip into his environment like Arnold Schwarzenegger could never go unnoticed but also right but also this is not a realistic movie no they work for something called the omega sector right it's a made-up thing yeah they're spies like the joke is that they're spies. This is not about CIA agents. I know. But then Tom Arnold is almost realistic

casting. We're saying the same thing. I know. We're not arguing with each other. We're arguing with the movie. I also agree with you too. Thank you, Ben. You're a great friend and a better producer. In a moment, you'll learn what makes True Lies a signature James Cameron Arnold Schwarzenegger film.

So the opening of this movie, which we don't need to talk about, is exactly what you'd think. Yeah. It's just, look at him. Isn't he a spy? Nice party. He slips in. All the women turn their heads. He swims.

He's a swimming operator. And then he swims. He gets out of the engine. Nice to see you again, Chancellor. Who's that guy? I don't know. It feels like James Bond spoof, which is what La Total is, which is

the movie that this is based on. And La Total, let's make clear, did not cost $115 million. Yeah. I'm going to guess the budget on that one was, I don't know, a few francs. Yeah, because the final gross was $13 million, which was like a smash runaway success. For France

it is.'s good good money i'm saying it probably cost four million at most yeah it was a claude zd movie and claude zd uh who plays asterix i know him best as the guy who plays asterix and in at least the first few asterix french movies he's like a big french comedy star and uh he uh you know the french love those movies like the the artist guy made a bunch of those spy spoofs as well. Yeah, the OS OSS 117

which Dujardin's amazing at. Yeah, they like making fun of that stuff. He did not star in it. A guy named Thierry Lhermet starred in it. No, no, he made it. He directed it.

And that guy's sort of like, you know, it's not a perfect parallel but he's sort of like if Steve Carell starred in this. Yeah, Thierry Laramie, you've definitely, he's been in American movies, hasn't he? I feel like you'd recognize that guy's fate. He's in a lot of stuff.

But it's like he's a Steve Carell type, right? Absolutely. Someone like that. I mean, he's like a comedy star who also can do drama and has sort of very conventional sort of like every man. A nice looking guy, but nothing, nothing. Right. And I think that movie is more based in most French comedies are sort of social farce, you know, comedy of manners type.

That's the other thing to crucially note is that, of course, that is like a bedrock of French comedy is like mistake, you know, double identities and like people like changing their costumes and their attitudes and their accents. And balancing the politics of different aspects of your life and different relationships and domestic shit like you know being you know the sort of notion in france that you would like hide secrets from your wife i don't mean to impugn all french people sure that is a notion that i think a lot of french people would totally get on board with yeah but the french comics are always about culture clashes always culture clashes almost always someone hiding

some deep secret they love secrets remember that movie The Closet which was like an extraordinary hit in France yeah I like that movie

it's fine and he's in that too Terry Limited or whatever his name is he's one of the guys who antagonizes him but Daniel Ote who is again

a serious French actor in that movie but like he's funny like yeah I mean like the movie is just about a guy who pretends he's gay. He pretends he's gay so that they can't fire him. Yeah.

And then everyone starts to go like oh I don't know how to behave around you anymore because that's enough in France. That's an idea. I'm really surprised they never remade that movie. Like you couldn't do it today but in like 2001 that movie felt so prime for a remake. This is America like they made I now pronounce you

Chuck and Larry right like you know these movies existed now I don't think you could possibly no you couldn't say that but at the time I was like

they're gonna remake this any second now but there are a lot of French remakes I mean it was like Three Men and a Little Baby which was humongous was a French remake

it's Three Men and a Baby and Three Men and a Little Lady sorry I'm a fucking idiot the Visitors they remade that which was unsuccessful. Usually unsuccessful.

I mean, often these things- Jungle to Jungle was a remake of Little Indian in the Big City, which was a humongous hit. Huge. Jungle to Jungle was a humongous hit? The original French film it was based off of, Little Indian in the Big City, was humongous. Yeah, but in France, you mean. Yes. Jungle to Jungle was a solid double or triple.

The Le Jeté, the short that was then developed. 12 Monkeys. 12 Monkeys. That's a French art movie. Yeah, sure. Yeah, more about the comedies. But yes, Ben, you are our finest film critic. Thanks for the excellent poll.

No problem. So yeah, True Lies, I have to imagine, didn't really go too much into the action sectors of the idea. It probably didn't blow up a suspension bridge across, you know, like a giant part of the ocean or whatever. Or like a horse versus motorcycle chase

through a hotel lobby. That's a funny, it reminded me of that line in Adaptation where he's like, it's like horse versus man or whatever. And that's when the movie

feels like it knows what it's doing and it's in on the joke. But the problem is that joke costs as much as the thing you're making. But I don't have a problem

with that. I don't have a problem with that. Let the movie be expensive. You're so, Here's're making. I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with the expensive. You're so here's the thing. I don't have a problem with that, like sort of morally or anything. It just feels like you can't really make fun of the thing if you are the thing. OK, I get that argument. The fine line you're walking where it's like, well, wait, you have just made an action movie. This can't just this can't get away with making fun of action movies.

I get I get what you're reaping all the rewards of it. you have just made an action movie. This can't just, this can't get away with making fun of action movies. Right. I get what you're saying. You're reaping all the rewards of it, and even though you're making fun of the fact that this guy is more threatened by his wife wanting to sleep with someone else than having a gun in his face, it also feels like it gives the Arnold character all the support and satisfaction he wants.

It all pays off for him. You get fucking Bill Paxton pissing himself twice, so it's so clear that he's the guy you're supposed to like be aligned with so let's get to the plot we introduce him he's a spy he does spy things he's on the tail of some spy villains

does a little dance with Tia Carrera which everyone wanted to do in 1994 everyone wanted to dance with Tia Carrera Tia Carrera however Tia Carrera who had been in obviously Wayne's World and less obviously Wayne's World 2 And less obviously Wayne's World 2. And less obviously Wayne's World 2 and Rising Sun. She was a hot star of the moment who did not happen.

No. No. Although she was in those, the Librarian or is that Noah Wiley? What was it called? Yeah, Librarian with Noah Wiley. Is she in those? No, she had Relic Hunter. Oh, Relic Hunter. She had? No, she had Relic Hunter. Oh,

Relic Hunter. She had some TV, you know, kind of ongoing, yeah, Relic Hunter. She gives a very good voice performance as the older sister in Lilo and Stitch.

She does. She's very nice. She's very good. And then she sings a couple songs. She's got a lovely voice. But anyway, this is her at the moment where she's just like,

kind of like a famously beautiful actress, right? She's just the kind of person who's going to be in a movie in 1994 and not even 1996. It was already kind of over for her. I think she had pretty good chops, actually. You watch this film, I think she plays her scenes well.

She does. She has no character. She has no character. But as a sort of lady who is at first nice and then mean, she's good. She quits herself. So Arnie's on the tail of some spies. Yes. I mean, some bad people.

Stealing weapons. Nukes. And then, oh, he goes home. Oh, he's married. He's a boring office drone, or he pretends to be. This is the real danger zone. We're both slapping our foreheads. When he said, I do, he never said what he did.

Marriage. So you've got Jamie Lee Curtis in like full like dowdy 90s oversized glasses giant glasses now we know that Jamie Lee Curtis is good at having short hair but what if the short hair wasn't sexy hey now they've got a teen daughter played by Eliza Dushku who looks like a human hacky sack I thought of that while

watching a new I would get that response from you David laughed so hard he took off his headphones It's a good line She's got a little hat and she's holding a pet the whole time and she's grungy It's like if John Connor had aged three years since Terminator 2

but didn't have to worry about saving the world just about getting laid That is her entire character is that she wants to get in the back of a bike with a boy yeah and tom arnold's like your daughter makes a lot of uh uh what's the word uh implications about her sex life yeah arnie and arnie's like oh hey man like don't talk about that stuff to me whereas he should be like hey what is the matter with you yeah stop talking about my daughter why are you so interested in my daughter's virginity? She is 14 years old. If she was 24

years old, this would be weird. Yeah. Now, I know you've already raked me over the coals for misidentifying how long certain sections of this movie run. Oh, boy. And I didn't take a stopwatch to it, but I do think that conversation about Eliza Dushku's virginity in the movie lasts for 55 minutes. I think, right? Isn't it

sort of, it's like an interstellar where you're too close to the black hole, right? Like time starts to move slowly. It's two mirrors facing each other and it goes into infinity. You're sort of just like, when is this going to end? And he's like, one more thing about your daughter's vagina, though. Like he just won't stop. I do think this is important because that is the entirety of her character development.

And I guess, you know, when you see her, you're like, oh, well, she's going to end up getting kidnapped or whatever. Yeah. And she does, but it's actually not as big a deal as you think it's going to be. Like, it's almost an afterthought right at the end of the movie.

But I think it pays into this gross thing where the movie, the success of the movie is he stops another guy from fucking his wife and he saves his daughter so she doesn't get fucked either. It's, yeah. Like, I'm not saying the terrorist

in the movie are going to fuck the daughter. no, no, no, but you're right. No, there's a weird virtue.

Because there's no other character there. No, yeah. He comes home, he gives her the snow globe. Oh, thanks dad.

She throws it out. Oh, what a loser. She's actually pretty great. I think she's good in it. Yeah, this is, she's going to be in Buffy

four years later. Mm-hmm. Bring it on. And she's in Bring It On a couple years after that. But I mean, like, and Buffy,

her character's a bigger version of this, which is just like all Tude. Like, leads with Tude. Yeah, it's got rude Tude. And in this, there's nothing else. In Buffy, obviously, there's a little heart behind it, you know. Was she your dream girl when you saw this movie, Ben? Um, no.

She feels like a female Ben a little bit. Yeah, I suppose. Opposite track. But I mean, I think it was just Jamie Lee. You were into Jamie Lee. Yeah. Okay. Hey, can I make a quick point, guys? At any point. Great. So there's the scene where Arnold's talking about, you know, what he was doing on his

business trip. He's like lying really badly. It's like a terrible performance. But this moment and a couple other moments. Maybe think of Trump. Ben, I'm sorry. Did you say it's a terrible performance? Yeah. Well, play the clip quickly. Ben, I'm sorry. Did you say it's a terrible performance? Yeah. Well, play the clip quickly. Arnold is great at everything.

Yeah, Arnold's good at everything, Ben. You're right. Ah, damn it. But it reminded you of Trump? Yeah, I don't know. It just made me think, especially the way he was talking, like his sort of like the language

and the way he was talking, it was like Trump to a T. It's like, this is a T. It's magnificent. So good. Yeah. But that's for a movie called True Lies. A big cornerstone of this character is that he cannot lie convincingly. No, not at all.

He's barely, barely selling it. And when his wife finds out that he's a spy, she's like, that's impossible. This boring, Shmoe? Okay, so opening chase, he gets back home. He gives the snow globe. Eliza Dushku's giving him the toad. His wife's impossible. This boring, Shmoe? Okay, so opening chase, he gets back home. He gives the snow globe. Eliza Dushku's giving him the toad. His wife's boring. And then he goes back to the office with Tom Arnold, right?

At Omega Sector. And Charlton Heston's their boss. Grant Heslov, who later becomes a writer and a director. Yeah. And George Clooney's pal. Producer. Smokehouse. Co.

But didn't he direct The Men Who Stare at Goats? I believe he did, yes. But he produces all of Clooney's movies and writes them with him and they have their smokehouse shingle together set up at WB. Smokehouse pictures, yeah. You know, he's an office drone. Yeah. I think he's

partly included because James Cameron is smart enough to know you gotta balance out. Yeah. I think he's partly included because James Cameron is smart enough to know like- You got to balance out. Yeah. We shouldn't just have all the villains be these sort of brown people. Like these evil Middle Eastern- They're called the Crimson Jihad. Yeah.

It's very, this is a very pre 9-11 movie. This is, I mean- It's a very post Gulf War movie. This movie is so of its time in every single way. Yeah. In terms of where it stands politically on everything. I'm not saying that Hollywood treats Middle Eastern people with respect these days or whatever, but it wouldn't just have literally just a bunch of turbaned guys with rocket launchers and beards.

Who just hate America inherently. But also think about how safe we were at the time, that we would actually portray terrorists coming into our country with nuclear bombs. Yeah, and have it be like, oh, another day at the office for Arnold Schwarzenegger. I mean, and their plan is to set off some nuclear bombs. In every city.

It's not like, they don't even like, and like the movie's not like, oh, they because this. No, they just hate America. Yeah. Crimson Jihad. I guess this is right around the bombing of the World Trade Center had probably happened. You know, like. Yeah.

That was 92, maybe? I don't know. I mean, yeah. 93. 93. So, yeah, you know, I don't know. But, I mean, it's just, you watch it now, you're like, oh, boy. Toronto Haston is literally playing Nick Fury, which I find really interesting because I'm sure at this point in time, Cameron was like, oh, I can just have Charlton Heston play someone who's like transparently a Nick Fury type because they're never going to make a movie with Nick Fury in it.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. No, it's fair. Nick Fury's never going to be in a movie. I can just put an eyepatch on Charlton Heston. No one will even object. Right.

No one will know. It'll just be an inside joke for some people for a few little souls okay so all that's going on and then how does Arnold find out about fucking Bill Paxton he goes to her office and she's not there he goes to her office

and overhears her chatting to a co-worker about like this mystery man who she's interested in. And hears her on the phone. And then she leaves all of a sudden. He catches her in the lie later. Yeah. He goes back home and he's like, I went by your office today.

Lunch. Lunch. How is the lunch? And she's like, oh, wouldn't you know it? And she does this scene really well where she talks about the problem with the printer and the ink. And having to go up to a different floor and makes it into a whole big dramatic story and it's like she's now playing the part

of the boring domestic wife she doesn't want him to know that anything exciting is going on in her life so she's making the story as banal and uninteresting as possible she's good in that scene I think she's good in every scene I think it's a terrific performance I agree and then Arnold goes on to the major offense

and is like, I'm going to use all the resources of this spy agency I work for to spy on my wife and stop this other guy from giving her the D. This is in the middle of a crisis in which terrorists are targeting a nuclear weapon, and it's right after he just had that long chase scene, which is the second set piece in the movie, with the horse and the hotel and all that crap.

And let me make it clear. When I say that he's trying to stop someone else from giving his wife the D, he's not trying to stop someone from hiring Caleb Deschanel to beautifully lens his wife in stunning widescreen frames. Well, no, this is not a Caleb D movie. That's what I'm saying. He's not trying to do that. This is Russ Carpe. He's trying to give her the dick. He's not trying to do that. This is Russ Carpe. He's trying to give her the dick. He's not trying to give her the D.

Okay. Okay. All right. Well, I'm going to move right past this, but it is creepy, right? So this is, we should talk about this. Yeah. So the central, the middle hour of the movie is all about this, basically. It's that the greatest threat in the world is that your wife would not be sexually satisfied by you.

Even though you, the movie has spent 40 minutes setting up how shitty a husband you are. Right. Like, forget the lies which we can forgive. That's one thing. He is like completely, he barely cares. There's no remorse. He's emotionally distant. He seems to completely neglect her.

He doesn't feel like the weight of like, God, what's happened to our marriage? We've grown apart. It's like he just doesn't give a shit. And they often talk about the fact that they haven't had sex in forever yeah

so he's not present for her in any possible sense he's lying to her he's not emotionally present for her and he's not physically present for her at all

he sucks he sucks but the idea that she would sleep with someone else how dare she terrifies him and that's where

you know the reason why Cuck has become this, like, fucking, like... Do we have to litigate every fucking awful word of this current sociological moment? No, but the idea is, these MRA, like, alt-right dudes think the most offensive thing

you could ever say about someone else is that their wife would want to fuck someone other than them. Or their girlfriend would want to fuck someone other than them. Which gets in these gross connotations of, like, you know, your job as a man is to, like, own your woman, that she's your property and no one else should have any piece of her, you know? Yeah. So, like, Cuck becomes this, like, horrible fucking insult.

Okay, all right, we are an hour in and we're not going to talk about Cuck anymore. This movie is, like, based all around that same central fear, which is, like, if your wife is getting the Deschanel from someone else. All right. All right. I'm cutting you off. Then you have no value as a man.

Everyone knows what you're talking about. The movie would be fine if it was mocking Arnie's insecurity. But it feels like they kind of think he's right. It feels a little too much. It goes back and forth. It goes back and forth. Scene to scene. And the biggest problem is you have all this stuff with Bill Paxton that is very good because Bill Paxton is very funny.

He rules it. So all the scenes with Paxton pretending to be a spy to impress Jamie Lee Curtis are funny because you kind of get the con he's running. I mean, she seems maybe a little like an idiot, which is a little too bad because you feel like, I don't know, go on. And this is the central hook of the French movie. From what I gather, the French movie is far more based in that right well it's right out because like as someone watching an action movie you're like wait a second so she's maybe dating someone who's pretending to be a spy while her husband's a spy pretending not to be a spy like this is too many plates spinning like I don't know if I need this why can't she just have a flirtation with an

office guy well and especially when the first 45 just have a flirtation with an office guy? Especially when the first 45 minutes have nothing to do with that and the last 45 minutes have nothing to do with that. I like that part of it. We like it too. I think it's great. We're saying that should be the whole movie. The French movie sets it up as here's a guy who's lying about being a spy.

His wife and he are distant and she starts maybe having an affair with a guy who's pretending to be a spy, lying about being a spy. It's the inverse, and the whole movie is centered around that sort of triangle of the three people. This movie loads so much stuff around it.

It does. That just feels like a thread. No, you're just getting more movie, baby. It's like a MacGuffin. It's like a plot activator. Yeah, I guess so. Anyway, Bill Paxton's pretending to be a spy. Arnie goes on an extended drive with him

in which Bill Paxton is like, Hey, yeah, my whole thing is I pretend to be a spy. I'll tell you this. That gets him wet. Yeah, and he makes all these gross jokes. He's very, again, as we've noted, very good at being a creep. Arnold has a fancy about punching him in the face. The kit.

Do you remember when they do the close-up of his kit? It's like a flashback of when him and Jamie Lee Curtis first met. Yeah. And she brings that suitcase with her from the Chinese food restaurant. It's like a gun and the passport and the money. That is the grossest thing you could do as a dude is trick a woman and also put together a kit. Right. And it is gross.

Like a a kit. Right. And it is gross. Like a spy kit. And like, and then, but then the movie is, like there's that bit where he's like, I have a small dick. It's really lame

what I'm doing here. Like, it's really sick. And you're like, yeah, okay movie. We already thought he was a jerk. And then he pees himself for the first of two times

in the film. Oh no, he poops himself too. Does he? The second time? They don't. It's subtle. Did you watch this in 4DX, Ben?

This movie is subtle. Yeah. If there's a word for this movie, subtle is it. Yeah. But it's like the audience already knows that this guy sucks. And also that he's not a spy, even though the movie I feel like is trying to be like, he's definitely not a spy, or is he? But to have him himself offer up the information that his penis is not only small but doesn't work well feels like an Arnold note, which is like, I want everyone to know this guy's a fucking loser.

You know? Yes, definitely. We already know it, Arnold. And he's like, no, he needs more. He's more of a loser. I'm Arnold. So there's all the Paxton stuff. And then, you know, Jamie Lee backs out.

Like, he takes her to this, like, remote cabin and tries to sleep with her. I love that bit where he's like they already got guys watching my my penthouse in Paris we're gonna have to hide out here. Like he acts like his shitty little place. That's his backup yeah. Is like his backup like one of his 17 hideout paths. Here's where I want to get to. Here's where the movie loses me because I'm actually I'm willing to be

on board with most of the stuff happening so far as long as the sort of rug pull is good. And if it feels like the movie is setting up Arnold as being almost the bad guy of the movie. Exactly. Like they're both bad guys and Jamie Lee's the hero. And it almost does this anyway because Jamie Lee is so good but then

the scene where they interrogate her and Arnold and Tom Arnold Hey they both got the same name. What's problematic about that scene, guys? Where she's essentially been like, you know, grabbed and put in a cell by some scary men. So gross. And then they're talking to her through these distorted voices and they're being like, did you sleep with him?

You know? Yeah. And she's like, you know, crying and sitting on a chair. And then the movie is kind of being like, oh, he's realizing she didn't cheat on him. And you're like, oh, he's realizing she didn't cheat on him. And you're like, oh, who cares? A, ew. And B, Arnold's incapable of playing that moment. No, they're asking the question that's on everybody's mind.

Did she bang that dude? Did he give her the day? Yep. Yep. Oh, God. And so to me, that scene is just all wrong. Even though Jamie Lee then kind of takes charge of it when she starts smashing the window. Yeah.

But it just feels like boys will be boys is kind of the moral of Arnie's crazy expedition to like sort of entrap and kidnap her and interrogate her. Which, you know, I mean, feels very gross, especially in a post like locker room talk world world where we're so aware of this, but also knowing that Arnold had this years-long affair with his cleaning lady. No, I'm saying don't even think about right now. Don't think about Donald Trump. Don't think about the cleaning lady. It's gross in and of itself.

I'm just saying the scene just doesn't play. I agree. It could play and it doesn't play because it doesn't reverse it on Arnie. It doesn't work. He doesn't really get a comeuppance in this movie. I agree. I agree, but I think it plays even worse now than it did back then.

I'm less interested in litigating a film in context. I mean, out of context. Yeah, I understand. But then you have the big stripping scene. The dance scene. Which, again, very French. And at this point in the movie, let's just say, Arnold has been

abusing his status within the agency. Yeah, is no one checking his line items here? Like, come on, this is a lot of money he's spending. He's sending, like, fucking helicopters and SWAT teams. He's having that French dude recording the VO booth. While Crimson Jihad is stealing nukes from under his nose. Right, he's just forgetting about Crimson Jihad for, like, a couple days. I mean, this is probably millions of dollars and eyes spent, you know,

away from monitoring the things that they're supposed to be doing. millions of dollars and eyes spent, you know, away from monitoring the things that they're supposed to be doing. Taxpayer dollars. You know what you have to do with Crimson Jihad? Knock the hell out of them. Yeah. You gotta knock the hell out of them.

You gotta build a big wall. Build a wall around them and knock the hell out of it so it lands on them. Yeah. All right. Tremendous. What if Trump just started

campaigning on the grounds of being able to knock down Crimson Jihad? Specifically Crimson Jihad. With these Crimson Jihad, they're trying to destroy our country. I'm going to destroy them. You won't even believe it. Art Malik is the biggest.

If you've seen the movie True Lies, I'm going to do True Lies times two. It's going to be true or lies. That's not Yarnel either. This is a new character. It's Yarnel Trump. All right. I'm Yarnel Trump. Crimson Jihad. Yarnel Trump. All right. I'm Yarnold Trump. I feel like the most.

Crimson Jihad. Yarnold Trump. All right. Okay. Okay. I feel like the most famous scene in True Lies is the bedroom, the hotel room scene. Yes. Right?

The dancing. Right. Which is a very high wire moment, sort of a weird mix of comedy and sexy romance. I mean, everyone knows. Let's just set up. Bill Paxton made her believe that she was going to have to be an agent with him, quote unquote, in order to go on a mission.

They send her on a mission. Right, so they're now flipping the script back on her and saying, we'll let you go without any charges. Now,

correct me if I'm wrong, women though, or anyone really, loves when you're tricked into role playing, right? Yeah. That's a cool thing to do.

It's so good. No, but what works about the scene is, she is dancing for Arnold, but it also plays into the larger plot of the movie. Wait, no, it doesn't at all. No, he's just setting up a sexy encounter for them where she can't see his face. The scene works because it's a masterpiece of physical comedy.

And because Jamie Lee is really good. That's what I'm saying. And because James Cameron's a great director and he lights it beautifully. He lights Arnold's face. and because James Cameron's a great director and he lights it beautifully. He lights Arnold's face. That shot you keep cutting to of Arnold covering his face where you just see his eyes, he looks like such a predator and such a creep. And I do feel like there's something you can read in

to the movie there. And Jamie Lee's so awesome, but also the whole time you're like, wait, what the hell is happening? where is this going but but it is yeah if you take it in the french way where the like where it's literally just like what this is how you rekindle a marriage you know a little bit of threat a little bit of anonymous you know like coercion you know that's how you just spice it up in the 40 in your 40s look i don't know if this scene exists in the french movie i've never seen. But I also think the French movie is so much

more focused in terms of what it's exploring whereas this has so much more going on in it. Different sort of threads and everything. Jamie Lee plays this scene beautifully. And this feels like the scene where you're waiting for them to fully flip the script and make it clear that Arnold has completely

acted the wrong the whole movie rather than the film feeling like it has its back being like, God, it is tough if your wife's trying to get the day Chanel. Right. But, um, but it never really does.

And it also is, I'm willing to go along with movie logic. I don't expect things to abide by the rules of the real world. Sure. But, but this is another scene where you look at it and it's like, okay, Arnold's in the shadows.

She can see his body, but she can't see his face. He's got a tape recorder in which he's playing the lines that he had this French guy record in a VO studio, right? Right. I don't think she could walk into that room seeing his body and not recognize that it's him. I mean, he's got such

a specific physical presence. You just know, you just have, this is Superman logic. You just have to go by the mental thing where she hasn't considered it yet. It doesn't matter. It's the same thing where you want when Bill Paxsonxton when he shows up at the fucking used car dealership to go who the fuck are you why do you look this way but it's no you're the the movie fails if you're thinking this way it's the one scene where it pushes it for me what do you mean superman logic where it's like no one buys that clark kent could be superman even though they look the same

superman doesn't even wear a mask but because cl because Clark Kent's performance as a bumbling clod is so effective, no one would make the connection, right? Like, that's the joke. Uh, yeah, fine. Maybe he should put glasses on. Well, maybe he should. Or a hat or something. I don't know. Oh, that's a good call. Like a bucket hat. So, the scene's well shot.

It's great. I feel like we're being too negative about this movie, but I couldn't help thinking about this stuff when I was watching it. we're being too negative about this movie, but I couldn't help thinking about this stuff. It just kept grossing me out when I was watching it. Arnold's character in this movie feels like the kind of guy who made fun of me in middle school. I don't have those issues. I'm not projecting that onto it, my friend.

Who are all these jocks who are making fun of you? Not like literally, but it was... Austrian? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. All these Austrian bodybuilders used to... The Austrian bodybuilders were the coolest kids at my school. You're Arnold Schwarzenitzer.

It just, I don't know. I just kept on watching it and being like, this is the kind of dude where if I'm at a bar and there's a finance bro who's talking this way, I leave the bar. But I also think it is 1994. That's not an excuse for how you view a movie to this day, but you know, I just think things were different, and this kind of shit was less unusual.

And, I don't know, James Bond movies were more sexist. I just want the movie to hold him responsible a little more. It does, and it doesn't, and that's the big problem. Now, here's what I'll say. Then we finally lock back into the real movie. Yeah. You know, the Crimson Jihad bursts in. They get taken prisoner. Right. Right when

she turns on Arnold, because you think she's going to, quote unquote, cheat on her husband. Because she's been told he doesn't want to have sex, he just wants to look. And then he's trying to initiate sex. She like, then she tries to attack him, realizes it's him. We don't have to go to jail. Which is the most satisfying part of the movie is watching her hit him a bunch of times. And then she realizes at the last second and goes, Paul, how is this possible?

Well, Paul? What's his name isn't it like the character Harry oh Harry whatever but it but um I like that and then I would say it continues to be satisfying when they are then taken prisoner and Harry has

the truth serum injected in him which is an hour and a half into the movie we're getting to this stuff if not an hour and 45 minutes it right I mean it's the last act of the movie except then there is that tacked on final set piece that sort of like 15 20 minutes yep but she keeps on thinking that she's responsible for him getting caught up in this that she's the one who got well at first right she's like i'm sorry it's just yeah i'm on a spy mission you wouldn't understand he's like i'm a spy, she's like, I'm sorry. It's just, yeah, I'm on a spy mission. You wouldn't understand. He's like, I'm a spy. And she's like, don't try to cover for me, you know?

Tia Carrera is like, oh, nice to see you again. She's like, who the fuck is this? Right, right. Like, I don't know her. She's a prostitute. She's disgusting. Yeah, he's trying to just, yeah, get safer. Right, and she's like, how'd I get this fucking locket?

The locket's funny because Arnold's got this really kind smile on the locket. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just love, I just, I want to talk about the truth serum scene. I just think Arnie's incredible in that scene. He's so funny. Yeah. When they're like,

you know, are we going to die? And he's like, yes. I can't even do the line exactly right. Because he's not capable of playing naturalistic comedy,

he's funnier if you put him in extreme circumstances like that, where you account for his lack of naturalism. You know? I mean, that's why he's funnier if you put him in extreme circumstances like that where you account for his lack of naturalism you know i mean that's why he's funny he's funnier in terminator 2 than he is in any of his comedies because the comedy comes from a robot trying to be funny yes also it's a better movie right but it's like anytime someone acting like they're on drugs, it's usually the worst. Sure. Right. He can pull it off. Because he never seems like a normal person.

So if you add a qualifier like, well, but he's on drugs, then it becomes, you're able to laugh at him because you go like, well, that's why this guy's so weird. Because he's on drugs. Schwarzenegger should be in a stoner movie. That's a good idea. That is a good idea. So there's that line that you did to lead off the podcast, have ever killed anyone yeah but they were all bad yeah and like and then that great i think it's great uh sequence where they're like uh you know what's do you want to say anything

to me before you start and he's like yeah i'm gonna kill you then i'm gonna kill you and then i'm gonna kill you i'm gonna use this to do that and he's like how are you gonna do that he's like oh because i pick my handcuffs and then he takes takes them all down. Yeah, it's awesome. It's a great, I love that. I want a lot more of that in this movie. Yeah. There are two things that come up right now. I'm fine with the mistaken identity shit. I just squeeze it down a little bit.

That's all. There's no reason this movie needs to be camera length or camera size. And once again, not talking about the budget, but just in terms of like, you know, he makes epics, right? it but just in terms of like you know he makes epics right i mean even when the scope of what the movie covers isn't huge the way he tells the story is huge and i think he can't help but filter it through that kind of thing but this story demands a sort of precision and leanness in order to work as any sort of trenchant kind of like you know social comedy it's also just not interested in having a villain like i feel like cameron's just been like you know what we're just not gonna bother with a good villain right we just don't have the time here it's so the villains are very tossed

middle eastern which is is sort of boring and and then yeah and it means it feels reductive yeah it means that the multiple final sequences in the movie you're like alright can't they just die Benny you're fired or whatever is great but you don't feel no urgency for him to take this guy down specifically

is this our least favorite James Cameron movie other than Piranha yeah I guess it's probably mine too that's sort of a bummer. I like this movie. I'm really mixed on it. Yeah, I'm mixed on it, too. I'm sorry. Yeah.

There are two comedic set pieces I think work really well, and they're short, that come up right in this sequence. I feel like we've now done the whole movie. Pretty much. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, we're near the end of it. Which is funny, because it is long. I know.

But it's like, what the fuck? It's so drawn out. There's the scene earlier in the movie where he tries to like cameron it up where like arnold yarnald meets with tia carrera and then he leaves and then art malik comes in and he's like dressed like a janitor and then when he closes the door like slaps her in the face and it's like oh she's working for him and then later in the movie they say the thing where it's like you think i care about you you think i care about them they just offered me more money and it's good money you you know, which is like he's sort of trying to make everyone a little more human, you know, and he's sort of setting up that

you should hate Art Malik specifically, not because he's a jihadist, but because he slaps a woman in the face. But it's like then you don't see him for an hour and a half like it doesn't matter. Right. Is that sort of like saving the cat? Yeah, it's the reverse. It's honestly the reverse of saving the cat. Right.

It's like, here's the thing we're going to do to make it clear you're not supposed to like this dude on a micro level. So that the macro, you know, indiscretions become more insulting. The two things that I actually kind of like laughed watching the movie, you know, a couple Arnold's line readings, but that's also like half laughing at, half laughing at. But nonetheless, that's part of the Arnie magic. Sure. One, I think there's one really smart, funny funny idea which i would be astonished if it wasn't in the french original which is the battery dying on the camera while the guy's giving that's so funny maybe it is in the french maybe it isn't it is really funny it feels like a very french gag to

me i'll say that i i'm it's not that i don't want to give cameron credit but knowing that it comes from a french film that's a a very, very French gag. Yeah. I also think the bit with Jamie Lee Curtis trying to shoot out the guys and then dropping the gun and then the gun perfectly as it lands on all the steps,

only shooting the enemies. That is one of those things where at first you're like, okay, I get it. And then it carries on and you're like, this is going on too long and then it keeps going

and you're like, I love this! It's so overboard. Because the gun is just so perfectly bouncing down. It makes no sense. It feels like an Austin Powers bit. I love this because the gun is just so perfectly bouncing down it makes no sense. It feels like an Austin Powers bit I mean it feels like it's so drawn out. It does and it's so not James Cameron because if you think

about the spatial geography there's no way it works and nonetheless and it's those are the two funniest things in the movie for me because they both play off of Cameron just like putting something ridiculous into a very tense high stakes situation which is what he's good at more than like one-liners or little like behavioral stuff you know yeah it's like what if you create a James Cameron scene and then something went wrong is

the joke behind both of those things but so they break out and then they fucking you know they save the day and whatever and they rush in and uh he kisses Jamie Lee Curtis and they tango the explosion happens behind them no no no no and then Tom Arnold's like I got some bad news he did get away he stole one fugitive it's your daughter and it's like oh fuck that but that's that is such a James Cameron thing and Arnold I not the fake out bugs me what bugs me is Arnold hears the news and immediately runs past Jamie Lee Curtis doesn't tell her that the daughter's in danger, gets on the plane and flies away. Like the whole movie's built up to this thing of like they work together now.

She's his equal. And then the second there's the final threat, he's like, wait, I'm the only one who can save my daughter. He doesn't even message to her that the daughter's in danger. That's a good point. Because this, and it helps make, I mean, it hurts the stakes. It hurts the stakes. But I mean, also the stakes are kind of non-existent anyway.

What if the movie is like, we finally rediscovered our marriage and then their daughter's a charred corpse. Right. At the end of the movie. But shouldn't she fucking go on the mission with him or whatever? Once again, it's like the man has to save the woman from being. Very true. You know?

It's very true. They do this final set piece. Who gives a shit? He shoots the rocket. No, I think it's a fun set the rocket I think it's a fun set piece I think it's a great set piece on the bridge

I think it looks great we agree I'm just saying looks good and you're fired Benny end of movie thank you Ben

quite a scream from him Ben you like the movie I still do it is good it's just it's like iconic for me.

Yeah. And all of the things we're pointing out, like how it's aged, I mean, it's an unfortunate thing. I think we're just going to have to deal with any older film at this point. But it still reminds me very much of my childhood. I think that's fair.

Yeah. I think Ben's being fair. The end of the movie, I think Ben's being fair. What would we call him if we wanted to give him a nickname about fairness? Well, he's already the judge, the tiebreaker, whatever. I don't know. Fair Ben. I don't know.

The end of this movie, it cuts forward a year later. Oh, Benity Fair. Benity Fair is really good. Yeah. That's really good. Ten comedy points. Yeah. Right. It's a 10 comedy points nickname the one year later to show that the family gets along well

is the thumb war and she's like no you have to keep your thumb straight it's like this is how you this is the coding to show you the family's getting along guys the family's getting along with a classic thumb war they get the call oh cool they're agents together and then they do like a replication of the opening scene

but now it's the two of them together, and they do the tango together, and that's nice. And you're almost like, hey, man, I check out a True Lies 2. If it's her having equal weight to him, 100%. Yeah. You know, because she's got more layers and more coloring, and it's interesting, and I like the movie

where he has to respect her the whole time, which is what the end of the film sets up. Yeah. For years, there were sort of whispers of a True Lies 2. Tom Arnold was always pushing that rock uphill because he wanted it so badly. Poor Tom. He always was like, it's going to happen. It's going to happen.

And then 9-11 happened. And he was like, maybe we have to wait a little bit. And then Arnold got elected. And he was like, I talk to Arnold all the time. He says the second he gets it off is True Lies 2. True Lies 2 is never going to happen. No ma'am. But he still sometimes in interviews is like we still talk about it. What else does he have to say?

He's the punchline of a fantastic Paul F. Tompkins story. Tom Arnold? Yeah. Have you never heard it? Don't spoil it but give the thing how we can look it up. It's his anecdote I believe it's on his album Laboring on Delusions about being on the set of The Informant and watching Matt Damon being handed

a bowl of blue liquid with like jelly, a square of jelly in it or something and just eating it like nonchalantly and no one reacting. And Paul F. Thompson's going to be like, what the fuck is going on? Is Matt Damon an alien who eats cubes? And then, yeah, you should listen to that.

It's really very funny. Very funny. This was the most expensive movie ever made at the time. Are you sure? 115. 100%. As much as listed as 115, was T2 only like 100 or so? T2 was like 97.

Oh, okay. I mean, who knows? There might have been some tricky accounting here, but this was the first movie on record that was costing over 100. And at the time, it was certainly the number one most expensive movie.

It feels like he was just like, I want to do the most of everything and, you know, spare no expenses. I mean, and of course, hey,

this podcast is called Blank Check. After T2, you know, you're going to get a blank check, especially if you're reuniting with the star of T2.

Can I make my quick argument for who I think should have directed this instead? Oh, yeah, of course. Because every point I've made is going to feed in perfectly. Here's the code. Who's the person? Paul Verhoeven.

Oh, interesting. I mean, that would be a very different movie. I think the way this movie works is if you crank it up that much that it becomes so clearly, knowingly satirical. Sure. That's not a bad suggestion. It'd just be a very different movie. I think Total Recall is the only movie

that posits Arnold Schwarzenegger as an everyman that works because the universe around it is so insane that you know not to take that literally. Good call. Good call on Total Recall. Might be harder in True Lies because it's not set on Mars, but you know. But I think, I mean,

his movies that take place in the real world, if you imagine this with like a basic instinct milieu and then just like turned up, you know? I mean, Paul Verhoeven loves... He is himself a bit of a chauvinist, but he is also someone who hates everyone equally to a degree. So I think he would make Arnold's character

a lot more openly disgusting. That's probably true. But he would also make him more lovable, weirdly. Which I kind of like. I think he's the one guy who knows how to- It didn't happen. It's a good idea. Good idea, right?

It's an interesting idea. Interesting idea. A what if, and perhaps it'll be discussed more someday when we do, a Verhoeven miniseries. Oh, that'd be great. The movie made $146 million domestic. Good number. And $378 worldwide. For the time time very good certainly was an expensive

movie though so maybe it wasn't like quite the money maker say t2 was yeah i mean t2 costs less made more but this was really because it was an r-rated movie like you know this was a solid hit jamie lee got close to an oscar now i mean this big hit it got one nomination for visual effects that's it yeah but yeah it got an Oscar. It got a Golden Globe win. It got a SAG nom. Blah, blah, blah. The Weekend is July 15th, 1994. Wow, right in the middle of summer. It's right in the middle of a

very hot summer for Hollywood in general. The movie opened number one to $25.8 million. Number two is one of the big films of the year, which in two weeks has already made $72 million. Forrest Gump. Yeah, and guess how much it dropped by?

5%. 1.3%. Wow-y-zowie. Now, of course, Forrest Gump for the time was, $330 million domestic was one of the craziest hits ever. It goes on. I mean, I think at the time was one of the craziest hits ever. It goes on. I mean, I think at the time was one of the five highest grossing films domestically. Quite possibly.

I think it, at least until recently, was Paramount's number one movie of all time. Yeah. I believe that year we had two films enter the top five of all time domestically. And I would guess number three was the second of those films. Yeah. The Lion King? Correct. Right.

They were both in the top five at the time. The Lion King, which in its fifth week, has made $175 million on its way to $312 million domestic. Yeah, I mean, both those movies would make over $600 million adjusted for inflation. I mean, just nuts. They're crazy, humongous hits. Yeah.

Number four is a film I saw in theaters. I also saw The Lion King in theaters. I did not see Forrest Gump in theaters. I saw none of these in theaters. You didn also saw The Lion King in theaters. I did not see Forrest Gump in theaters. I saw none of these in theaters. You didn't see The Lion King in theaters, huh? I was terrified of death, and I knew it was a plot mechanic in the movie, so I wouldn't see it. Fair enough. I didn't like seeing movies that I knew were based around death.

Fair enough. You probably didn't see a lot of movies. Saw some very friendly kid movies. Yep, and some of them, if we knew the death was at the beginning of the film, we'd walk in. I swear to God, that happened on Fly Away Home, because we knew the death was at the beginning of the film, we'd walk in late. I swear to God, that happened on Fly Away Home because we knew that the mom died of cancer in the opening scene. What a great movie that is. Is that Caleb Deschanel too?

I believe so. And Carol Ballard? Yeah. I think that's Caleb Deschanel. It definitely got a cinematography nomination. I just don't remember if it is. I think they gave the D in that one. I saw this film in theaters though.

Number four, it grosses 50 million. It stars a young boy who would go on to become quite a famous actor. Decaps? What? Decaps? No, not Decaps. Not quite Decaps level, but he's in a movie with Decaps. Marky Wahlberg?

Nope. Think like real kid star. Well, not star, but kid actor. It's not Lucas Haas. It's not Elijah Wood. I'm trying to think of who. He's in a movie with Leo. Just one.

He's in a movie with Leo. Before Leo blows up or after? After. Way after. Way after. Oh, yeah. Like recent. Like five years ago.

Six years ago. He was in a five years ago Leo movie. He was a kid actor, but he wasn't like a kid star. He was just a big actor. He was a fairly big kid but he wasn't like a kid star. He was just a big actor. He was a fairly big kid actor, and then he made a fairly seamless. Oh, is it Angels in the Outfield? Yeah. Joseph Gordon-Levitt.

Correct. And Danny Glover. A nice solid Disney hit. 50 mil is pretty good for that little movie. I like when they stand up and they wave the wings. That movie also had dead parents, but they were more alluded to than on screen, which meant I was down to see it. I saw it in theaters.

I don't think I've seen it since. I think I liked it in theaters. I might have seen it two times in theaters. It's just that run of kid baseball movies in the mid-90s that were really being crammed down my throat. Rookie of the Year. Rookie of the Year. There's The Sandlot.

Little Big League. Little Big League. There's a lot. There's a lot. Kids and Baseball, baby. Number five is one of my absolute favorite films. This is so far the best I've done in the box office game. You've done great.

I'm killing it. You're killing it. One of my favorite films to just rewatch. I've seen it so many times. It is a big hit in 94. It made $120 million domestic on a $30 million budget. It's in its sixth week. It's a huge hit.

Now- It was kind of a- What? Kind of a reboot? No It's a huge hit. It was kind of a... What? Kind of a reboot? No, I was going to say it was kind of a rebound for its star, but I guess it was a little bit of a rebound for its star after a few years of making kind of weird indie movies. Interesting. 94, and is it like a movie

that you liked as a kid, or do you re-watch it now a lot as a grown-up because it's better as a grown-up movie? It's an action movie. I definitely liked it as a kid, and I've just always liked it because it's great. Is it Stallone? No. Is it Bruce Willis? No. Is it... You're doing a weird

little hand thing like you're banging a drum. There's nothing to do? Yeah. Give me another hint. It's an action movie. It's sort of a rebound for its star, but it also introduces a new leading lady to Hollywood. Ah.

Interesting. It's an R-rated action movie, quite violent. Quite violent. Although not consistently, just has moments of violence. And it's not Bruce, Sly, or Arnie. It's not. They've been doing indie films. I'm kind of stumped on this one.

I'm thinking it's Van Damme, but I don't know the movie. No, because I feel like it has to be someone who wasn't exclusively an action star, like a physical presence guy like that. Not that kind of a guy at all. Right. Kind of a small guy. Although not tiny, but just a little more compact. Well, it's not TC.

No, Tom Cruise, no. It's not TC-14. No, it's not TC-14. It's not Clint Eastwood. No. Give Cruise, no. It's not TC-14. No, it's not TC-14. It's not Clint Eastwood. No. Give me the actor. Keanu Reeves. Oh, Speed.

Correct. Okay. Damn it. Yeah. I gave you some okay hints. You did, yeah. It's a tough one to talk about without giving it away, but of course, introduce the world to...

Sandy Bullock. That's right. And it has some great lines, all written by Joss Whedon. What a great movie. Great movie. Great movie. So that's the top five? That's right. And it has some great lines all written by Joss Whedon. What a great movie. Great movie. Great movie. So that's the top five? That's your top five. Is Batman Forever in the bottom of the ten? No, Batman Forever is not in this. That's 95.

Oh, I thought that was 95. I'm almost certain that's 95. I think you're right. Some of the other movies in the top ten, you've got I Love Trouble with Julia Roberts and Nick Nolte. People didn't love that one. They did not. Reporter movie.

You got Blown Away. The Stephen Hopkins movie with Jeff Bridges and Tommy Lee Jones. Isn't it like a... It's some kind of action. I've never seen it. You got The Shadow with Alec Baldwin. You got Wolf. Jack Nicholson.

Which my mom always contends is not a movie. It is. It happens. And I know she went to see it. I remember my parents would go see movies. Yeah, my parents also went to see that movie because it was a movie for grownups. Right. And I would stay up late and wait for my parents to come home and my babysitter would be like,

okay, your parents are home. And I'd be like, how was the movie? Because I always wanted to hear how the movie was. And they were like, it's not great. And I remember them coming home and telling me about Wolf. And I've invoked it to my mother a couple times. And she's like, I don't think that's a movie. And I was like, it is. Mike Nichols directed a Wolfman movie with Jack Nicholson and Michelle Pfeiffer. But set in like the boardroom. Right. And she's like, I would have remembered that. And I was like, you've seen it. And what's the tagline?

He's a real animal or something. The animal is out. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Great. Ten comedy points. The Flintstones, which is also a film I saw in theaters. A film that is almost incoherent. The plot movie that i saw it in theaters and my brother saw it with us and he was five years old and when we walked out of that my brother was like that was really bad like even a five-year-old i'm the same age as your brother i had the same thing i was so hyped for i had so much flintstones merchandise i had a flintstones lunchbox for years after that. And I was so fucking pumped because I was a Hanna-Barbera kid. And I went to see the movie and I couldn't have told you what that movie was about.

I rewatched it about a year ago. It's about like corporate malfeasance, right? The plot is so bizarre. It's about, they take a competency test, but the scores get mixed up. So Barney, who's an idiot, actually turns out to be like an idiot savant. Right, right, right. But then Fred takes the credit for his scores because he thought Barney was's an idiot actually turns out to be like an idiot savant right right right but then Fred takes the credit for his scores because he thought Barney was gonna fail and he felt bad for him because Barney was gonna get fired yeah okay I vaguely

remember this and Barney was gonna lose his job and he didn't have any money because they just adopted the kid but then Fred ends up thinking it was gonna make it better for Barney but actually made it better for him and the kid's a nightmare right because they just adopted Bam Bam or whatever right so Fred becomes like a high roller and he works up the ranks. But then isn't there

like some whole deal where it turns out like the company is like selling shoddy product at like a markup and they have to like uncover all of that. All these 90s movies, even the kids movies were about like corporate. It's like Wall Street but with the fucking Flintstones. But the thing about that. Halle Berry plays Sharon Stone.

Yes, yeah. And doesn't it have nine credited writers or something crazy like that? Like a famously large amount of credited writers? It's from the director of Problem Child. It was a huge Steven Spielberg production. But the thing about the movie is it looks insane. You'd never see a movie that looked like that. No.

The production values are kind of amazing. Incredible. They built the whole fucking town of Bedrock. Yeah, but it's very strange. They also, there was so much merchandise for that movie and I had like all of it because they were convinced

it was like coming the summer after or two summers after Jurassic Park. No, it was the summer after. It was one year after. They thought it was going to be as big

of a merchandising bonanza as Jurassic Park because they were like, we got dinosaurs and humans. Sure. And there were these articles that they were like,

this is a once in aetime opportunity for merchandisers. Like, not since Batman is there a movie that's going to look this much. All right, all right. I'm cutting off your- I had the lunchbox and everything. I keep mentioning the lunchbox because it was cool. It looked like Fred's little lunch pail. That's enough.

Baby's Day Out, Wyatt Earp, Schindler's List. Hey, but are we pretty much almost at the end of our episode? We are done. This is the end of our episode. So are done. This is the end of our episode. So very quickly, this is just a new segment. We're going to call it On the Record. On the Record, okay.

Okay. The reason why is because I thought, hey, you know, we have the election coming up, right? Sure. We have predicted how the election will turn out, and that'll be in a future episode.

Yep. So I just want to point out that I've also mentioned one of my favorite films of all time is The Man Who Knew Too Little with Bill Murray. This movie is very much in the same territory, and I just want, on the record, to say, man, wait till you guys see The Man Who Knew Too Little.

You're going to be blown away. It's so much better than this film. Okay. I agree. Why is that called on the record? Because when we record the episode than this film. Okay. I agree. Why is that called On the Record? Because when we record the episode and you guys watch the movie

I'm going to play this again and you're going to listen to me say this, what I'm saying now, in the future. But the difference is with calling the election that's like a thing where there's like a, you know, unless you're Donald Trump there's a solid result which we can all agree with. You're calling your shot that you think people will like one movie more.

I just want to say every day that I think about this election, I do think about the panic that was in our voices when we recorded that bonus episode that will air in a few weeks that was going to air after the election. And just I just want Dunford to lose so that I can listen to that and laugh. Me too. And I just that's how I want it to be. By the time this episode comes out, we're going to be like just a week away pretty much, right? This episode comes out and then election day is like eight days from then. Yes. Terrifying.

All right. Yeah. So the Titanic part one. We're ducks in between. Huh? Ducks in between. Oh, the ducks come after. You're 100% right.

Okay. So get ready. We've recorded this one, so there's no threat of a false guest promise here. Ha ha! Big announcement. Titanic's a two-parter, baby. Yeah, yeah, Titanic's two parts. Much like the VHS,

we had to split it into two parts. It's two long episodes, and I feel like we didn't get to everything. No, it's crazy. There's too much to talk about that movie. There's a baby in that one. It's crazy. Yeah, and two

past favorite guests coming back. We'll leave them as a surprise, but those episodes are in the can and they're nutty, baby. Yeah, if anyone's a big fan of the series, they'll have guessed who's going to be on this episode. Yeah, probably. On this show, I think. Ask to talk about Titanic. Okay, so That's next week. That's next week.

That's next week. This is True Lies on the Record with Ben Hosley. Right? That's the name of the podcast? week. That's next week. This is True Lies on the Record with Ben Hosley. Right? That's the name of the podcast? Yeah. Yeah. And we're all wishing you a goodbye fennel. And right?

Any last thoughts, Griffin? I'm putting my finger in the air. No, I think I'd like to see the Verhoeven version of this movie. It's still more interesting. I don't like it that much, but it's like it's Cameron. There's always interesting stuff going on. There's immaculate craft, and I just think this was sort of a breaking point for Arnold in terms of

what you could get away with having him do as a leading man, how you could present him. I wanted brief final thoughts, my friend. That was my final thought. Okay. Ben? Ben is sighing. Oh, great horse work. Agreed.

Agreed. But did you hear Ben just go, oh. Yeah, I did. That was interesting. That's how we all feel all the time. All the time. For me, at least. I'll speak for me all the time.

And as always. Yes. Goodbye, everybody, from your friend, Yarno. At least you didn't say cock. Cock. from your friend Yarno at least you didn't say cock cock this has been a UCB comedy production check out our other shows on the UCB comedy

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