Blank Check with Griffin & David - Used Cars with Jason Mantzoukas & Paul Scheer

Episode Date: September 13, 2020

How Did This Get Made’s Paul Scheer (Black Monday, The League) returns with Jason Mantzoukas (Big Mouth, Brooklyn Nine-Nine) for a rare-Rated R Zemeckis – Used Cars (1980). Topics in this episode include the unique star power of Kurt Russell throughout his career, unpacking the bad luck sequence, and a general look at the state of major studio comedies. Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Merch is available at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com

I'll tell you something, this country's going to the dogs. You know, it used to be when you bought a podcast, that son of a bitch stayed bought. Good shit. This movie's got good lines. Yeah, yeah. This movie's got some nice, like, scummy monologues to wrap your mouth around.

This movie feels like any room in any residence that charlie sheen has ever lived in it's got good lines okay still okay all right all right they're still there that's my argument had you seen this movie before no i never seen this movie before uh our guests had you seen this movie before i have never seen this movie i thought it was a ron howard movie i don't know why in my mind i always associated used cars as like ron howard's first directorial debut well that's there's grand theft auto right that's because it's also a cars movie right and and in a certain way this feels like it could have been a Ron Howard, Michael Keaton comedy. Not the final product, but on paper, you're like, this could have been the thing that happens right after Night Shift.

Well, by the way, this is the closest thing we have to a Back to the Future prequel. I mean, this is all the power players that made Back to the Future, made this movie. And there are zero similarities. Like, if you put these two movies together, you'd be like, all right, who are the same behind the scenes players? You'd be like, oh, no one. And it's everyone. They have like opposite visions of America, these two movies, basically. I've never seen this as well, but this, to me, I was like,

because I don't know, I was expecting something different, and what it was made me so happy. Because this is the kind of movie that I feel like isn't, not only isn't done anymore, but very quickly after this period isn't done really at all.

I feel like Used Cars has more in common with Smokey and the Bandit than it does Back to the Future. Like, than it does, I almost feel like it's Robert Zemeckis doing something at a time when there is like blue collar scumbag antiheroes are like the lead of movies, right? Rousing people to help them combat, like usually cops or judges or whatever.

But this to me, that kind of shaggy, bad guy is the good guy kind of thing, that's like Burt Reynolds, that's Hooper. That's Burt Reynolds movies of the 70s. It's great like that's Burt Reynolds movies of the 70s it's great it's Burt Reynolds movies of the 70s and Bill Murray movies of the 80s like they're at the exact cross section between those two movie star runs I will

also say this movie there's an inherent like horniness to this movie and it's not like a sexual horniness but there is like there's a very like I don't know adolescent young man energy yes muddy yeah there's a very like, I don't know, adolescent young man energy. Yeah, smutty. It's a weird thing.

It's like, you just don't see movies like this. And Smoking the Bandit doesn't even have that like, and I'm going to use that term again, like horniness. It's just like, there's something very unique about here. It's like, we're going to blow up shit. We have strippers. You know, it's like, there's some energy. Yeah, it's got that kind of going to blow up shit. We have strippers. You know, it's like there's some energy. Yeah, it's got that kind of like early Landis thing.

You know, they're like Kentucky Fried Movie, right? Yeah. Even like Bad News Bears has this. Even like they're like, just like that, the guys you're following. And it's like you could not have. This movie doesn't work without Kurt Russell in many ways. No way. You know, like absolutely. This movie doesn't work without Kurt Russell in many ways. No way. Absolutely.

Kurt Russell at a time, in a place, where he is showing you so well that he can both straddle what is capable of being the slimy, smarmy kind of guy who is cheating people. Legitimately, that opening crane down from the lot into him dialing back the odometer is perfect it's like here is this guy he's a piece of shit and then the whole movie is just him being a charming hero and that is fucking amazing well look no paul wargast i

sorry no no go no go ahead sorry i'm gonna i going to do the proper intro, so I'll let you say your point first. No intros. This episode, no intros. Intro-less. We will end intro. We're going to end intro. Fine. Great.

There we go. So I'll say what I was going to say, which is just I've been digging deep uh into this run of the the early gail zemeckis movies and i won't explain why because i'm not introing the show or explaining our central premise but um i've been watching these movies obviously and uh also watching all the special features and trying to find any interviews i can and there are two things that really stuck out to me while watching this movie one is uh gail was saying in some interview, I think it might have been on the special features for Used Cars,

that Francois Truffaut always said that a filmmaker's second movie is always in direct opposition to their first film. In one way or another, whether their film was a success or a failure, once again, I'm not explaining why that's an interesting theme to this show, because that intro will come later, but whether their first film was a success or a failure. Once again, I'm not explaining why that's an interesting theme to this show, because that intro will come later. But whether their first film is a success or a failure, their second film is in some way a direct response to that and usually trying to play the

opposite of that. Either now that I've done this well, I want to try to flex this other thing, or because that was a failure, I need to zoom in another direction. And despite I Want to Hold Your Hand, their debut film, film being great did not do well and so this was very much like that was pg it was pretty soft it was pretty gentle it was pretty humane let's make the most like anarchic socially irresponsible r-rated gonzo comedy we can and the second thing is that in between this and back to the future is romancing the stone which was the one movie that Zemeckis didn't write because he had two flops in a row. He said, I'll take a script that someone

else wrote. I just need a hit. But Back to the Future is the third proper like Zemeckis-Gale collaboration. And when they were pitching it, everyone said, this isn't marketable. If you're making a comedy, it has to be Porky's or it has to be stripes so they had just made a movie that was like porky and stripes that was a flop and then they were pitching back to the future and everyone was like if you're gonna make this movie the lead guy has to be a bill murray like anarchic fuck the you know the powers that be guy or the film has to be a ribald sex comedy or both you can't make a gentle movie about a guy trying to help his dad get a date. And so this movie exists in such a weird specific pocket

of Gale and Zemeckis doing this thing incredibly well that feels like it's not necessarily what they are most driven to. And this is one of only two R-rated movies that Zemeckis ever made. one of only two R-rated movies that Zemeckis ever made. The second one is Flight. Well, I want to talk about comedy and Zemeckis and comedy, and then go a little bit further out and talk about Spielberg and comedy, because I love this context. I love Spielberg, but in comedy and Spielberg, I don't know what his sense of humor is, right? And I feel like we were talking about this on our last episode. Spielberg in comedy is very weird. Exactly.

And I feel like in a weird way, this is Spielberg's sense of humor. Because he's like, I want to continue working with these guys. I think this movie is like a sledgehammer comedy. And what I mean by that is that odometer scene that Jason's talking about, you know, the music that kind of underscores it. It's so big. It's so bombastic. When they hit jokes here.

It's like John Philip Sousa marches. Yes. Are used throughout the movie to give you this sense of like old timey, like grand kind of like Americana kind of bullshit. But then juxtaposing it with someone who is acting in direct opposition to what those kind of patriotic marches represent. It's uprising music committed to a swindler and a shit bag. Yeah. I mean, but in a weird way, you, the, the kind of thing that works really well. And I know that we're talking about Bill Murray being like this, you know, a guy who is against the system, like Kirk Douglas makes a shit bag likable. I think you could always argue that Bill Murray

could be unlikable to other people. But in this movie, Kurt Russell is likable pretty much to everybody, but the guy that he's against, right? The other Fuchs brother, which by the way, why did I know I was going to love this movie? When it said in the credits, Jack Warden as the Fuchs brothers. Yeah. Dual role, Jack Warden. You're in good hands.

Yeah. I was so excited when I saw that he was playing two roles. That was, and was, and was bummed when he died young in one of the roles or died early. Rather. He is a great shithead and he's a great like good old pal who knows your best bud he's great at both and he's like why don't i just do both i read that um he was he originally turned this movie down and then said only that he would

only do it if he was offered i can't remember which of the brothers and that he would only do it if he was offered. I can't remember which of the brothers and said he would only do it if he could play both. Yeah, they offered him the bad guy. The good brother was going to be a different actor. And he said he'd only do it if he could do both. Which I love. Amazing. Which is so good. Jack Warden, you know, Jack Warden is somebody who for me is, you know, Jack Warden in shampoo is unbelievable.

Jack Warden is like, and then, you know, yes. Like it's just one of my all time favorite character actors of this generation. Well, I mean,

this movie is chock full of some of my favorite people. I mean, Joe Flaherty. I just, I don't see enough of Joe Flaherty. Michael McKeon. Lenny and Squiggyon Lenny and Squiggy are both in this movie

do you think that Lenny and Squiggy create like I was trying to figure out the timeline is this pre Laverne and Shirley and did they cast them because of this movie or vice versa is it pre no it's mid Laverne and Shirley it's mid Laverne and Shirley and the selling point was

they were getting into such an Urkel zone where it was like their characters were becoming so big and they had started out as comedy partners that the pitch was do you guys want to come you get to work together we'll give you a lot of latitude you can make the characters as different as you want and that was the selling point for them you were not hiring you to play Lenny and Squiggy. And they were great. Yeah. I mean, that's like the only heartbreak. My only heartbreak is that Carmine Ragusa, the big ragu, didn't get in as well.

He'd love a little ragu on top of the dish. Yeah, just a little bit of that spicy sauce, you know? Why did they break up? Do we know why they broke up? Or they didn't work together more? I think it was probably that problem. I think it was that they were just like thing right the duo had become so iconic that to a certain degree i think they were probably

worried about like are we cheech and chong are we never going to be able to do stuff that isn't reliant on this dynamic the other thing that we need to lay out right away if we're talking about career arcs is that this is this is the first kurt russell movie that's not a disney movie right like i know there's the elvis the elvis miniseries the john carpenter before elvis miniseries comes out the year before and then use cars these two things come out within i believe six months of each other maybe a little bit this is a year before escape from new york yes but that's that's him being like i am a grown up. I can play a badass. Like, you know, I'm not just like a sweetie pie. But this is the beginning of him being like, I can have an edge to me in a movie.

This is where you see him being a charming rake. This is where this is the version of Kurt Russell I believe could have been Han Solo. Yes. Yes. Like that. That makes sense to me. The charming rogue, the guy who's operating only for himself

until he's forced to, you know, care about others. Think of this run. It is used cars, escape from New York, the thing, Silkwood,

swing shift. I mean, that's a pretty great run. Great run. And he's on his way to tango in cash. Yeah. You know, right.

When he hits perfection, but I believe it's the Disney charm that makes him like, that makes this kind of like this movie in somebody else's hands is a little less likable. There is something very like, so like charming and you want to root for him. And yes, he is a sc less likable. There is something so charming and you want to root for him. And yes, he is a scumbag,

but I honestly don't even view it like that because he brings a real level of an everyman to it. Not like Bill Murray. I think Bill Murray seems like he's working the system or Kurt Russell seems like the system's on him and he's just trying to do good. Like he's trying to run for, I mean,

the plot points in this movie are insane. Like, well, the fact to your point, exactly, Paul, the fact that his drive, the engine that is driving him through the movie is that he needs to raise

enough money for a bribe. Yes. He needs to like the system. It's another, it's a movie. It's another great kind of movie that exists in a world in which everything is corrupt. Right. It is. We are post-American graffiti in terms of everybody's great. Everybody's cruising the streets. Everything's great. It's the fifth like 50s nostalgia, which which Zemeckis will then like firmly engage in in Back to the Future. firmly engage in, in back to the future. But instead here he is, it's very present day. It is very much. We're fucked. You know, like we're post Nixon post card, you know,

it posts forward. Right. Yes. That kind of like everything like post Vietnam, everything is a fucking mess. And you got to scrape by as best you can. Politics are bullshit. Even to be a state senator, you need a $50,000 buy in to bribe some guy. And that's and that's what Kurt Russell wants in on politics. And let's make it clear. The reason he wants to raise that $50,000 bribe is so that he can get into office and then accept bribes for the rest of his life he explicitly wants to be a buyable politician that's what he tells everyone and like i i don't think that the other dealership is probably that much better but they're acting like well we gotta save our used car like they're terrible business they rob people they sell them shitty cars the the the main thrust of this film is incredibly flawed because it's driven a lot by these commercials. And we'll get into like how those commercials come about. They're big set pieces. But like these commercials are so effective that all of a sudden people in this town are like, oh, I got to buy a car now.

Like buying cars aren't like it's it's not like oh there's a new thing i must get it's like people are buying cars in this town at reckless uh recklessly as if they're like hitting up a new frozen yogurt shop yes yes it is bizarre like like i've never seen a used car commercial and be like oh yeah i should buy a car right now. Oh, they really missed an opportunity to make the, uh, pink berry, red mango version, remake of, uh,

used cars. Menchies. When that happened, when those two went to war with each other, used Gertz. Um, I'm going to lay, I'm going to lay out a little context here because I did a deep dive in the

formation of this movie, which ties together. A lot of things we're talking about in terms of what this movie gets right and how it almost could have been wrong. So Zemeckis and Gale were like the two filmmakers that Spielberg really mentored. And he says like the only time my career where I really formed friendships with two directors, kept them under my wing for over a decade, was very invested in everything they did. And it was from seeing their student film when he had only made Sugar Land Express before he was Spielberg. So as his career got bigger and bigger, he was able to slide more and more checks their way. But this movie started as a Spielberg project. And you talk about Spielberg not being particularly good at comedy. I think what he

loved so much in Gale and Zemeckis is him seeing this is what I would do if I had the facility for comedy. In the same way that he read their script for 1941 and he went, this seems fun, this sort of anarchy, this scale, this level of destruction, but he didn't know how to pull it off himself. John Milius was their other big mentor. Milius, Spielberg, Galeail and zemeckis which is crazy a crazy crew to think about but millius is the sort of like super like libertarian like fuck everything movies should be socially irresponsible he i think really stirs the sort of like anti-authoritarian chaos in gail and zemeckis and And the project started out with them all hanging out

and Milius saying, you know what I've always wanted to make a movie about? There is this phenomenon of used car dealerships right outside of Las Vegas, where guys are driving to Vegas, and right before they enter the town, they go, I should sell my shitty car so I have more cash in hand to gamble. And I'm going to make so much money this weekend that I'll be able to come out of it, driving a nicer car. And at the end of the weekend,

they end up having to downgrade and buy a shittier car from the guy they just sold their car to. What a great idea for a movie. I mean, a great, like a centerpiece. That is a crazy phenomenon. Right.

And the kind of thing that only somebody like john millius or like in later generations somebody like david milch would have the kind of like not base of knowledge of like how people fuck their lives up because of gambling that's a personal experience story that's like john millius saying. So I've heard that some people sometimes. John Milius is not out there. Like there was an article in The Atlantic about this phenomenon. John Milius is like, no, I live a monster's life. And they have eight of my cars.

One of the other monsters that I talked to told me this great story, you know, and that's it. other monsters that I talked to told me this great story, you know, and that's, that's it, you know, and that's, that's what I, and that's what I love about this is small stakes war. Yes. You know, small stakes war that never escalates beyond what it is like it. Nobody never like it. It doesn't get, um, it never tips into absurdity. It never, it onlyity. It only reflects more. It's all character-based war, which is wonderful. I would argue you could make an issue about them interrupting a presidential broadcast nationally as maybe slightly absurd. They were near a breaker that said White House communication. They're not in D.C. and they're in front of a satellite that says White White House communication. Like they're not in DC and they're in front of like a satellite. That's true.

It's just a White House communication satellite. Sure. They might've just gotten the local version of that broadcast. No, that was the national. They were going national. That was the whole national. Which was even funnier to me because it's like they're making a national commercial for a one store used car dealership.

Listen, when you've got Lenny and squiggy as your lone gunman type guys you can get anything done absolutely that's the sequel too i mean there's so many great spinoffs here but i agree with what you're saying there should have been a launching pad it's it really is like the easiest idea to get in front of it's just it's just you know store warfare it's just like one-upmanship it's super small stakes but such good character movement and the stakes are so well defined it's yes the gail zemeckis thing of just like you know exactly what everyone wants what the obstruction is what the workaround is um it's so fucking good but but so they're all talking about this spielberg goes that's a great idea for a movie i want to make it so

spielberg kind of calls dibs on it and at this point he's like post jaws right wow and and they're like spielberg's never gonna make this fucking movie but ostensibly millius is saying that he'll write this for spielberg someday and the exact idea is george hamilton they go the premise is it's used car dealership outside of Las Vegas. You can see the poster. It's George Hamilton. And the tagline is, would you buy a used car from this man?

Which talk about how well cast Kurt Russell is. This movie does not work if it's George Hamilton, who seems irredeemable. He's too slimy. I get why they would think that when they're pitching around in the bar. I totally do. But could not be a,

cause he also somehow reeks of Las Vegas. Too obvious. But, but, but Kurt Russell, and I could spend the next two hours alone, just talking about Kurt Russell. The best.

You know, because he really is unique in this way that we were talking about. You can root for him in a way that even when he is doing bad to every character who is a good character in this in this movie you are still rooting for him well i mean case in point and i don't mean to cut you off griffin like the the idea i do i do mean to cut you off, Griffin. When they kill Jack. You're going to railroad him out of this thing. When they kill one of the Fuchs brothers, I had a real hard time with that

because they bring in this demolition driver to destroy that car. I don't know why that moment hit me as heavier. I think it's supposed to be played for comedy, but this man kills another man. A good man. A good man. A good man. And it's at his brother's,

at his brother's behest. Yeah. The brother is, the brother has never shows any remorse for causing the death of his twin brother. And when that happens to me, there's nothing that Kurt Russell can do that is going to top that. So you basically, that moment cleans the deck.

It's like, it's killing John Wick's dog. Yes, that's the magic trick. It's true. Jack Warden is a cute little puppy. He really, I mean, that Jack Warden, nice Jack Warden. In that big shaggy sweater. Absolutely. I think there's also just, there's the universal sympathy for the guy trying

to get his pills you know what i mean like that's you always are like oh jesus just let the guy get his pills like no and i love that the bad guy the demolition derby driver or whatever he is uh he you know he's a bad dude because he walks around you know like when they have a tooth the guy has a toothpick in his mouth and you know he, he's a badass. Well, he's a gearhead version of that. So he carries like a screw around and dangling out of his mouth is a long screw. That's the sledgehammer comedy of this movie. It's like, you get it? You get it? Gale and Zemeckis, watching all these interviews, the thing they're so good at is character, right?

They always make these really compelling, really fascinating characters who are just like a meal for an actor to dig into. But also, they talk about their writing process is so pragmatic where they go like, what are the things we want to achieve by the end of this movie? How do we solve that? And what do you need to do to properly set that up? And in that sort of way, things like, well, if you have to do to properly set that up and in that sort of way things like well if you have to watch the good jack warden die that sucks so much that you're gonna be on board with

anything their rivals do for the rest of the movie like they do think pragmatically and i saw gail cite john wick's dog in one of these interviews where he's talking about his storytelling principles and it feels like a game recognized game thing where he's just like, yeah, you do that in the first act of the first movie. We're with John Wick for the rest of this franchise. Like that's just good, fundamental populist storytelling.

Well, because when you see that dog in John Wick, you're like, well, they can't kill this dog. Right. And that's usually how it goes in a movie. Like there's certain things, you know, are off limits limits especially because it's a gift from his now dead wife it's not just a dog it also yeah i mean it's it's it within such a short amount of time they imbue that dog with such heart and then just like boom so alfie allen comes in and kills So much so that when they blow up Jack Warden later in the film, you don't feel that Kurt Russell has done anything wrong.

No. Were they literally burying him in a shallow grave? You're like, good job, buddy. Great job. You had to do it. You had to do this. Right. Doing that is less disrespectful than letting his brother take over the dealership.

Yes. Oh, and that's what we should, because we haven't said what's at stake here is that the government is going to reroute a highway right through either one, right through one of the Fuchs brothers car lots. So one of them is about to be out of business and one of them is about to have the best possible setup for selling used cars right and the good the bad guy fuchs brother thought he'd bribed all the right people and done all the right he thought he'd played the game baby but he's wrong and now so now there's a

there's a ticking clock on getting rid of the bad fuchs brother so that he can buy out there, inherit rather that land. And there is a contested daughter who reenters the mix. Reenters late, by the way. Really? Very late. This movie is long, by the way.

This movie is too, this has the John Landis comedy vibe of it's almost a two hour film that really for the level of comedy it is this is a this could have been a 90-minute movie but i mean i guess it's that third act too where it's like which always kind of not puts me to sleep but i it's like the blues brothers thing it's like all right car chase car chase car like car chase holy shit that that car chase goes on for a long time but i also feel like it's one of the better executions of this I've ever seen.

Yes, I loved it. What should be a three-act, 90-minute comedy adding on an extra act that's suddenly action set pieces. Yes. It's that thing. This is where, too, it starts to remind me of the Burt Reynolds car movies, you know, car culture movies that are such a part of this. Like this big, you know, they get all, they've got, whatever it is, 200 kids to drive

jalopies across the, down the highway, and then when they turn, they've got, what's his name? I can't remember the guy's name, who is in the lead, who realizes he's in a red car. Oh, Derek Graham, yes, yes. He grinds everything to a halt because, like, is in the lead who realizes he's in a red car and then Garrett Graham. Yes. Yes. Grinds everything to a halt because like,

I can't drive a red. I, there are so many good little, little things woven throughout here about his fear of bad luck and bad juju and like good luck charms and red cars. All this stuff about cars and superstitions felt very real, again, to a used car lot. You know, like to guys that are like daily having good or bad luck selling a car. Well, that's where, I mean, you guys were saying that this does not feel like a movie made by someone who's like three years away from making Back to the Future. But on the other hand,'s like three years away from making back to the future no but

on the other hand i guess five years away but on the other hand that's where for me the last act the fourth act of this movie really starts to show oh these guys are about to make back to the future because the way all those things pay off all these things that for the first 90 minutes feel like just fun bits of characterization right like the teacher coming back with all his students like that's a joke that doesn't need to come back all that yes like this scrappy comedy at the last 30 minutes becomes tight as a drum and suddenly everything is suddenly like an activator for some ecstatic payoff and by the way i just want to shout out alfonso aro who you might know as el guapo from Three Amigos, who plays a very large part

in this movie because he owns the 260 cars. And a great little moment in the beginning that you forget about goes away for the entire film. And I was so excited to see him back again. It was a great, it was at the beginning, it was odd that they did set up, oh, I have 260 cars. But it was odd that they did set up, oh, I have 260 colors. But it was a payoff. I enjoyed seeing come back. Well, both of you guys come from improv.

There's that philosophy where it's like the perfect time to do a callback is the minute after the audience has forgotten the thing you set up in the first place. And that's what they do this a couple of times throughout the movie, you know, is they let you, they don't feel like they need to hold your hand at all. They let you forget that those cars exist. They let you forget a number of items, even as to your point earlier, how long they wait to have the daughter return. Yeah. You know, like not that you've forgotten, but you really,

in another movie, she would have come earlier. And in the John Milius version of the movie, they would have failed. You know, like it's a it's a it's a Zemeckis. You can feel Zemeckis and Spielberg in how the end of how the last act of this movie is unabashedly hopeful and successful yes you know like to the point where to the point where they are uh kurt russell and um i'm forgetting the actress's name who plays the fuchs daughter uh deborah harman deborah harman are like also the plutonium newscaster in back to the future who announces that it's yeah stolen um they are in the back of a pickup truck like leading everybody like rah rah rah it is it feels very it's it's it's it's it's ecstatic you know this this we're gonna do it we're gonna save the

show um in a way that i feel like the john millius version ends with like a wrecking ball going through the used car dealership you know and them crying at the funeral of an American flag. Yes. I mean, they win over Grandpa Munster. Oh, another great... Right, there's something about the infectiousness of this guy representing the good and the ill of the American spirit

is the Spielberg-Zemeckis connection. So they're developing this vaguely back pocket as Milius and Spielberg's project. I Want to Hold Your Hand comes out. It doesn't really make an impact. Spielberg's working on 1941 and Zemeckis and Gale are eager to make another movie. They set up a film that's a crime thriller,

which gets shut down- Griffin, I hate to interrupt. Griffin, I hate to make another movie. They set up a film that's a crime thriller, which gets shut down five weeks before production. Griffin, I hate to interrupt. Please. But I've never seen I Want to Hold Your Hand. Neither have I. It's a good movie. I recommend it. That's what I wanted to know,

just because you've now brought it up a number of times. Is it worth watching? Totally. Okay, great. All the music of the Beatles, right? Yeah. Yes, yes. It the music of the Beatles, right? Yeah. Yes, yes. It's one of those like super confident debuts

where you're like, oh man, this guy just knew where to put the camera from like minute one. Like it is a very involving, easy to watch movie. It's also a 90 minute comedy. Like this is a little more expansive. That's a pretty straight, like it's a pretty straightforward.

It's kind of like a B-side of American Graffiti, a little more like chipper, but it's got that kind of vibe. Yeah, it's a pretty straightforward it's kind of like a b-side of american graffiti a little more like chipper but it's got that kind of yeah it's a more manic it's like a looney tunes version of american graffiti but it's that kind of like a bunch of young teenagers at a turning point in american culture questioning their future and the future of their country uh through the prism of the beatles it rules uh but it doesn't do well. And it's like a very tender... So it's just like yesterday? It's exactly, exactly like yesterday. Got it.

Exactly like yesterday in that it's perfect. Isn't it crazy that we are still making movies in which we see the world that we live in through the lens of the Beatles? Yes. Like that's how much this generation is still like, that's the boomers right there. We can't get out from under that shadow.

They did it in the mid 70s and they're still fucking doing it. Trying to convince us the Beatles are the best band of all time. Right, they're like, I know for the last 40 or 50 years we've been making movies about the shadow of influence the Beatles have cast.

What if we change the game and make movies about how shitty things would be if the Beatles never existed? Because we can only understand worlds through the prism of whether or not the Beatles have landed. Oh, it's so crazy. Yes. I'm sorry. Please, please continue, Griffin.

So Gale and Zemeckis are supposed to do this movie that I think later becomes Trespass, the Walter Hill film starring Ice Cube and Ice-T. That's correct. Oh, wow. They developed that this early? Wow. Right. They were supposed to make that film and it got shut down. So then they're just like, fuck, we got to direct something. They go to Milius and Spielberg and they go, guys, come on.

You're never going to make fucking used cars like you guys are operating at a different level level now. Let us make this scrappy, you know, car dealership comedy. And they go, yeah, that's fine. So they go off and they write the script. They try to do the Las Vegas one. It doesn't work. They go, let's free ourselves of the premise. We just want to make a used car dealership movie. And we want to use this opportunity to make a movie that we think could be a hit. Let's try to make something more in line with the popular comedies of this time. They write a whole other draft. It doesn't work for them. Scrap it. They're like, we got to make something work. They finally come up with the dynamic of the brothers, of the sort of political aspirations, all of that sort of stuff. They still want to do it with George Hamilton. He passes.

Wow. George Hamilton goes to what? Love at First Bite? Is that what he does? Yes. Or Zorro the Gayblade? Z First Bite? Is that what he does? Yes. Or Zorro the Gayblade? Zorro the Gayblade. Yeah. One of those. But George Hamilton passes. Passes.

Is hilarious. Passes. But blessing in disguise, Russell has just done the Elvis miniseries. Other than that, he's a dude who has done

10 years of Disney comedies. A solid 10 years. Which makes him seem like a non-obvious choice, but also is the only reason this movie works. As you said, like movie stars are defined by their real life experience that somehow seeps into their performances, right? That's in a way,

the difference between a movie star and an actor is some ineffable quality that you can't beat out of someone that shines through and helps your movie. That is, they can't help but be themselves. They are not transformable. At the root, you are always seeing them. You're always seeing a Denzel Washington movie.

You're always seeing a Tom Cruise movie. And there is something where you don't even question it because it just, you want to see them. It's a sequel. It's like you're seeing them do sequels. It's why sometimes when those people try and go against that type it doesn't work like it's why tom hanks doesn't work in road to perdition right you know but it's that weird thing of like the 10 years of disney film school essentially that he went through acting in that very specific

vein and i found this radio interview he did promoting used cars and the radio host won't stop bringing up the Disney movies. And Kurt Russell's clearly trying to move past them. And he's being like, well, it was a great experience. I learned how to act and, you know, I was able to put food in my family's table, but, you know, I'm not proud of these movies. And this is a new thing for me. Like he was really desperate. He had something to prove in the same way this character wants to transition his life into a higher sort of gear of influence. But also, he just has that energy, that, like, Eddie Haskell, gee whiz, I'm going to charm the pants off you, all-American charm, that makes this movie work. work and then carpenter subverts it in a different way which is like i can put kurt russell in these earnest like sort of sci-fi dystopian settings and have him play an anti-hero and it's gonna work because he's always got that slight winking quality like he's mocking it it's so great because

here it it works in the real world if you put him in the real world as a down on his luck blue collar kind of hustler it still works in big trouble in little China even if he's surrounded by supernatural forces you know it still works if you put him

you know at an arctic base you know and there's and there's a Cthulhu style monster. It's still he still works because he's your buy in. He's got that characteristic that you're like, I want to be this wise. He's not an expert. He's never the smartest guy in the in the thing. He's never the he's always the guy who has kind of stumbled into and is trying to

make the best of these circumstances to that point is there something about kurt russell where and this may be true for a lot of characters but i'm kind of seeing it with him where he doesn't bring the problem to himself like in this movie he's not the owner of the dealership he's defending the dealership's honor right in escape from this movie, he's not the owner of the dealership. He's defending the dealership's honor, right? In Escape from New York, he's being brought in kind of against his will. He's never wanting to be the hero. He's never really wanting to step up. Whereas sometimes I feel like there are other characters going back to the Bill Murray example. Like he does stir shit up. He's like, I want, I am, I am the catalyst to a certain degree.

Like, and Kurt Russell's always like, he's not the lead guy in the thing. He's not like, he's always just the every man in a big situation who then is forced to step up. There's something you're right. There's something about him that is put upon. Yes. Right. And there's like Kurt Russell excels when he as a character has been put in circumstances that are not what not ideal for him that he needs to figure a way out of.

And and even Tarantino uses this in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood by forcing Kurt Russell's character to be in between his wife and Brad Pitt. Yeah. You know, he's still like, he's still jammed. He's always jammed up somehow. He's never in control. He's never, he's always somehow reactive. He's very, here's, here's the beauty of Kurt Russell. He's incredibly active in being reactive to other characters. Except when he's Captain Ron.

That's when you get him full-blown K.R. Unconcerned. Yeah. I feel like it is, I mean, he's a guy who always seems to have

a very canny understanding of his movie persona and his skills in that sort of sense and what sort of stories he functions best in. Because, like, Bill Murray is Bugs Bunny, right? Bill Murray, his dynamic is, I don't even want to be in this movie.

That's the appeal, is not only is he fucking with all the characters on screen, but it feels like he's fucking with the fact that he even has to be in the film. He's coming just short of staring down the lens and going, ain't I a stinker? Kurt Russell is very engaged in the stakes of whatever movie he's in but it is sort of that han solo thing with a little more post-modern edge of i'm trying my hardest to be a piece of shit but somehow there's some level of decency that's coming through there's some sweet little boy who's fighting for the right thing underneath there's a sweetness right and and he has the han solo thing of like i am about half a step ahead

of this like it is gonna this could fall apart on me very quickly but i'm usually good at staying just slightly ahead of whatever disaster is about to fall on top of me but you also talk about like the way this character is built he is a piece of shit everything he does is objectively kind of wrong and unlawful but as we're saying a he spends most of the movie trying to save a dealership that isn't even his b to defend the honor of his friend a guy we like so you're put in a position where he is doing something kind of selfless and the raising fifty thousand dollars is like a subplot but it does make you kind of root for the guy because you're aligned in this sort of like well enemy of my enemy is my friend and i know i was curious though why he wouldn't embrace the daughter and bring her into the plan earlier.

Yeah. Why is he suspicious of her? It's a good question. And, you know, and I thought, oh, they're going to pull the rug out from him. Like I kept on waiting for her to say, I'm actually not the daughter. Like when Jack Warden, the alive Jack Warden looks at the picture and they go, oh, that's his daughter. He would say, that's not his daughter. He never had a daughter. It was, you know, that was just a girl who came to the dealership and then you'd be like

oh no kurt russell's in a relationship with it was the person like this is a bigger uh you know i thought there was going to be a bigger switch because she's introduced as being suspicious like she's introduced where it's like who are you exactly you know like and she's just snooping around and i thought they would play into that. Yeah. What's yeah. I thought all that as well, but what I kind of like that the movie does though,

is when offered the opportunity to bring her into it and thus make her a part of the good guy's plan. Kurt Russell's character does the wrong thing and fucks her over. And again, he's a piece of shit. The movie, he actively romances her without telling her even that her father

is dead. He won't give her even the knowledge that her father has passed away, that she just had the first conversation with in 10 years. When Jack Warden, the good Jack Warden, comes out of the office having just spoken on the phone to his daughter and the derby racer is there with the screw in his mouth, Jack Warden cannot stop talking elatedly about how happy he is his daughter it's a miracle he

keeps saying it's a miracle my that was my daughter my daughter wants to see me and then he and by the way she was in a cult right we don't really get into that like he does say she was in a cult for 10 years and I believe that the script does not really pay off on that in her personality at all. Like, she doesn't seem affected. She doesn't seem like she's being deprogrammed. Well, she was in the NXIVM sex cult.

And so she was doing a lot of work on like supporting parts on TV shows that shoot in Vancouver. By the way, I thought that she was actually in that cult from that Netflix documentary where they took over the wild, wild country. It's about the right time.

I guess the only way in which it factors into her character is that she's very quick to fall for another sort of charismatic huckster. Okay, I buy that. But by the way, wouldn't that have been a great thing that she never did trust him? Like, I don't trust once bitten, twice shy.

It's a nice thing they do though because at this point they could redeem kurt russell and they don't you know they double down on making sure you know he's only in this for himself you're right they want you to walk out of there being like what was i rooting for you like why was I so pumped up about that? Like, it's a pretty acidic movie considering how fun it is. But this is another very subtle magic trick they're doing, which is you're watching it and you're going, this guy is wrong. Why am I rooting for him?

And you're not really even factoring in the fact that it is like, it's, it's his friend's legacy. It's someone else's business business it's all these other things like on a he doesn't even know he doesn't know he's doing russell doesn't even know about the highway plan it's not like everybody knows the highway plan is looming over everybody's heads he is literally just acting only for his own self-interest at all times until the very end of the movie. And even then it is only because he is only then does he have like a crisis of conscience in a way.

That's the magic trick is he thinks that he is exclusively doing the wrong thing, but secretly he's doing some right stuff over the course of the movie unknowingly, which makes him rootable. I also think there was an anecdote where they said the scene where he has to sort of like not confess to her but make the speech about like i really like you right and i think there's something here on the day they were supposed to shoot that zemeckis and

gail like took stock of every lie this character is maintaining at this point in time all the fucked up things he's doing and how much of a huckster he is. And they're like, this monologue is like four lines. I don't think this is enough. We would not be able to convince a girl to stay with this. We have to write this scene out. So they wrote a two and a half page version of it. And they went, hey, Kurt, we know that under the scene was underwritten. So we wrote a new version of it. Here you go. And he looked at it and he goes, guys, I don't need two and a half pages pages i can get this done in the four lines and they went really and he delivered the four lines that you see in the movie and they went fuck it kurt russell's right he as a movie star has the power to take those four lines and imbue them with enough earnestness activate his

fucking computer war tennis shoes disney charm super dead even though you shouldn't root for this guy he gives that speech and it's like gee whiz i i really like you and you go like fuck yeah i know she should stay with him i guess it's true yeah it really is like you don't lose you don't lose faith she came in at a weird point in time where her presence messed up the plan. And I believe that on a different situation and a different day, they would have connected the same way. He just couldn't let her in to this secret plan. So I believe that that's also a part of it too. I mean, not to keep on defending this character, which I really do like, but I do believe that you believe that there's a connection between them. Even when he comes after the bowling alley, there's something there in that scene with them. Oh, I like them together.

There's something genuine between the two of them, even if he can't crystallize it. Yes. Even if he can't until the end of the movie realize that he needs to perhaps put himself aside. It's only in that moment where he's actively giving the bribe over to a person who handcuffs himself to the bag of to the doctor's bag full of money with a chain that is seven feet long. I was like, what is this about? Why put a safe in your refrigerator, but yet not cover up the safe? Like if you were to open the fridge, you would see there was a safe there. It wasn't like, oh, you move a carton of milk and the carton of milk is actually a safe. It's just a safe in the fridge. But that moment for me, I also went, oh, this is one of 20 hiding

spots he has. Right. Well, by the way, this movie, for all we're talking about how it's good and twisty and turny, I mean, there are some real leaps of logic. We talked about breaking into a national White House transmission. I do want to even just mention the core of the film or the third actor. Are you talking about burying an Edsel? Or are you talking about the mile of cars? The stampede? Well, I'm even talking about burying an Edsel? Or are you talking about the mile of cars? The stampede? Well, I'm even talking about something even different,

which is like the lawsuit about how they've edited her TV commercial. Like, that seems to be the most provable thing to be like, oh no, here's the script. And someone definitely manipulated it. She doesn't even seem to have any defense. You're telling me Lenny and Squiggy can't figure this out? Yeah.

Lenny and Squiggy were able to break into a national broadcast. They can't figure out that the thing's been messed with? Like, that to me was such a logic jump. And the fact that she has no defense for it, like, she's like, like, just to shrug it off. Like, like, it would have been better if they went over there and convinced her like, Hey, let me give you a tip on how to shoot your first commercial. Say this. And she didn't know.

And they trapped her into a lie. Instead they go in this convoluted route doing something. She didn't say where there is a script. You actually show the script in the movie. Like there is proof. There's evidence. They could have just gone across the street and said, Hey honey, like using the character's voice not my my own way of talking wow hey honey you know uh let let me uh let me help you do this and they could have tricked her like it would have

even been more effective in a weird way in both this scene that you're talking about paul when the bad jack warden alters her commercial. And in the previous stuff, I wrote down a note because I was like, in this movie, there's so much AV explanation because this kind of stuff, like moving words around or breaking in using satellite feeds and all this stuff was so brand new.

It's like james bond shit they really had to walk people through but then in the in the lenny and squiggy version of it there are jokes the best being when they explain that squiggy has put a pacemaker into lenny like they're biohacking in like whatever year this movie was made. 1980. I was like, does he need a pacemaker? If so, he should go and get a real one done. What is going on? And he brags about the pacemaker by hitting it.

And there's such a good performance moment for McKean where he winces. Oh, yeah, I love that. The best. There's just a lot of, again, in a movie that is pretty straightforwardly, just a war between used car lots. There's a bizarre amount of it hinges on AV components. Well, that's,

that's the Zemeckis thing, right? Like that weird tech upset. Like they're, these guys are kind of gear heads. Like, that's true. I guess they're going to make,

or the back to the future is the rabbit. rabbit right yeah yeah yeah well i guess it is this idea too it's like it's this very contemporary moment that it's depicting but it is cutting he's gonna he's gonna insist on saying but yet there is cutting edge technology out there that we have access to let me just give you a glimpse. Let me let me show you. It's almost like let me show you, Jack Warden generation, the greatest generation. Let me show you, old man, what we can do now. And he's like, what?

You can do this? You know, like it really is like it's an explainer for old people. It is funny, as you said, that they just cut into the middle of one of those courthouse scenes. And Grandpa Munster says like, and because there's no evidence of tampering of the video footage. Yeah, they just don't show you the part where somehow that is completely disproven, even though it should be very provable. Like Eugene, Joe Flaherty basically goes, I have expert testimony to say it hasn't been tampered with. Right. That's what it is.

We're just believing the prosecutor. And I, Grandpa Al Lewis, love Grandpa Al. Incredible. And the fact that he's the hanging judge and all over his judge's table are like little effigies of like hanging i don't know like you know it's that to me little models right little models of the electric chair little functioning models little working models of a hangman's platform so that when he's talking he can activate it and the little man drops and hangs it's so good when i was a kid that's what i thought a judge was that it was mostly

just like you banging things to make things happen that was the role of a judge and the fact that the hanging judge is assigned well i mean there's so many things assigned to this like weird wording of a local commercial like it's so there's so many things it's it's so sitcom-y though like you know and that casting Joe Flaherty and Al Lewis and Lenny and Squiggy right like he's trying to like you know

invest that all into the movie yeah right this is a heightened universe right which is great because you've got I think if you're Zemeckis you know on the other side of it

you've got Jack Warden you've got some you've got people who going to ground it to enough of a degree that it's not going to float away into the sky. Everybody, because everybody, make no mistake, everybody is a capital C character in this movie. Everybody, even like, and I forget the actor's name, the guy who won't drive the red car. Yes. He's like a De Palma regular. His name is Garrett Graham. And he's great.

And he is, you know, you know, Kurt Russell's of the, he's the other salesman at the, at the used car lot. And he's kind of a Kurt Russell's partner in crime. This, the, the set piece where they bet against different teams for a game. Oh my God. And he tries to get bad luck inside of a bar.

He's for like two minutes, for a solid two minutes, he runs around a bar knocking over salt shakers, opening umbrellas. How are thereakers opening umbrellas how are there that many umbrellas in this in this place that is one of the most original yes and hilarious set pieces i've ever seen in the sense that oh you've seen very like you've seen so many of these things you know in different variations i've never seen trying to get bad luck. And again, they are so smart. This just sets us up for why he won't drive that car at the end. Yes. This like how extreme his reaction is in the bar. And it's extreme. And it is funny.

You know, it is not raining out. And there must be 15 umbrellas, closed umbrellas inside that bar. And the restraint that they took to break glass, I mean, or break a mirror, because we all know that's a big one. And, you know, he found many a thing before breaking a mirror. That's the artistry of Zemeckis and Gale in this period is like, they are able to look you in the eyes

and convince you that the Chekhov's gun in the wall is just decoration they're like I know you know how movies work I swear to god this is just a funny joke it's not a plot setup I I don't know uh Jason and Paul if you had this thing but like as people who write comedy when I recognized oh, this scene is now going to be him trying to create as much bad luck as possible. I got vaguely angry at how good a setup that is. Like when you just see like you so rarely see a set piece in a comedy where you go, wow, that's actually an original idea I haven't seen before. It's not a take on a on a classic. I was I also had the thought i was like oh i can't believe

i've never seen this this movie is 40 years old and you're like fuck this is the only time anyone's done this i i love comedy as magic in the sense of there's a chapelle special i don't remember what it was and he basically says at the top like i'm gonna make this thing funny like I don't remember what it was. And he basically says at the top, like, I'm going to make this thing funny. Like, you don't think I can make this thing funny or here's the punchline. He does something like that. He goes away for it for 15 minutes and then he gets back to it and he hits it. And you're like, oh, like it just, like, I love like saying like, here it is. I'm showing it to you. And then Nick's kind of sneak around. And this movie does a lot of that. It just, it really like plants those seeds really nicely

and it's so fulfilling when it pays off. There's something wonderful about discovery, you know, true discovery. Like unexpected, that's what makes things funny, right? You know, when you really are surprised by or discover something along with the characters. And that is, for all intents and purposes, what is, I think, exciting about performing

and what I think is also fun about watching improv because improv is all discovery, not just for the audience, but the performers as well. Everybody in the equation is seeing this for the first time be done. And that, that discovery is exciting when it works. And in this scene, I was like,

this is such a great game, you know, such a good game to play. They are against each other. They've bet against each other. And this man is going to try and engender as much bad luck as he can in order to win his bet on this game. And it also is a great friendship moment, a great character moment.

Yes! That's the other thing. It works so nicely because you buy this bond between these two guys. But you also get why he then is sitting on the side of the road later and is like, I can't do it, man. I can't. It's a red car, man. It's a red car. I was like do it, man. I can't. It's a red car, man. It's a red. I was like, fuck.

Yes. I love this. That scene accomplishes like five things at the same time. One of them is you think that's the Chekhov's gun going off of the superstition. That's the ultimate heightened that it's not going to pay off with the red car later. Two is it actually sells the bond between these characters, right? Three is it's a great device for devices sake but also talking about how like gail and zemeckis do these sorts

of payoffs without holding your hand ironically for guys who had just made a movie called i want to hold your hand uh it's that thing that storytelling principle and i think especially with comedy that's so satisfying where you don't spell it out for the audience. You give them one and one and allow them to make two together. You sort of have them betting on the game. He's bombing. Russell's depressed. Garrett Graham comes in. He's like, this is amazing. I'm so glad. I bet you should have bet on this. I did. I bet on the other team. The sinking realization, him saying how much did you bet everything the only way you can win is if i lose he says that you know this guy's internal mantra which is every superstition matters right and then he knocks over the salt he doesn't say anything but he slowly prepares to

knock over the salt as like the the other guy gives him the salt, which is even better, which is even such a great, small, slight move. It's also, again, not to interrupt you, Griffin, but definitely to interrupt you. It's also wonderful in a way to illustrate Kurt Russell's character. And it's not even brought up between them. Kurt Russell has, they've talked earlier about the bet. The friend has made. Kurt Russell has knowingly bet against his friend.

Yes. By the way, another bet that he made based on superstitions. Like again, it's a beautifully crafted. Yes. He are. He takes the opposite bet. He's such a contrarian. He, again, it's a beautifully crafted. Yes, he takes the opposite bet.

He's such a contrarian. He's actively working against one of his best friends in search of his own selfish success. Right. Which is great. And, like, Jim the Mechanic slides over the salt. He knocks it over, you know, slowly unscrews the top, knocks it over right at the moment. Like, the play gets fumbled and then he just sort of has that wide-eyed look and you realize like they have set up an

entire mousetrap board in front of my eyes and i didn't even realize it and now they can just go off now he can do fucking anything jim the mechanic by the way frank mRae right who's like he was like a football player he's in so many like yeah he is actively rising to the challenge of like I don't care how big any of you guys are going I will be bigger I'm going to be the largest performance in this movie like by hook or by crook the Gale anecdote is that because he'd come from sports he didn't come from traditional acting background I've been acting for a while but like you know had different schools of thought he when they started filming would say every one of his lines as slowly as possible and jack warden was like what are you doing and he was like see it's smart if you say your lines slowly then you end up with

more screen time in the movie and jack warden, kid, I've been making pictures for 60 years. If you say your lines that slowly, they're going to cut around you. You got to say it quick. And that way they have to use everything you say. So then Jack Warden put the fear of God in him and his game became, I have to say every line as quickly as possible,

which then Gail and Zemeckis used to motivate their actors to say, try to even outspeed him. Let's be at this tone the whole time. Let's get this energy going. The whole energy of the movie was sort of reverse engineered from that. That's amazing.

Unbelievable. I love that. And he's great. I loved when he, when they charge him with being a car salesman, not just the mechanic and he's trying to get that guy in the car there's there's just great everybody gets moments to be great in this movie everybody gets to have their character developed like two more steps than movies now do you know like like now an ensemble movie um doesn't give you those character beats for the kind of fourth and fifth bananas you know like they don't give you information they don't

give you enough to really root for them the way that movies here in this era did they this movie you know they really leaned into getting you to care about these other characters because of the just little beats here and there. Like that scene where Garrett plays the dead dog prank on the guy in the station wagon. It's amazing. And the fact that we see everybody at home watching those commercials, and then those are the same people who show up to the car lot the next day to buy those cars. You see that guy and his family, and then you see them by the station. in big movies because this movie is complicated in some of the decisions that are going on. But at the end of the day, it's just really an us versus them. It's just like, how do we shut down that other dealership? Things get in the way of it, but it allows you to have a lot of scenes of these characters just kind of hanging out. It's the ensemble nature of it. I think Ghostbusters

number one kind of exists in that same world where it's like, yes, they're getting ghosts, but at the same time, you're just existing in these guys owning a business and the ups and downs of that. And I don't know, you get to like every one of those characters because there's no other real world outside of it. It really is in that station and occasionally at his house. You also get to know a little bit more about Annie Potts. You also get to know a little, you get to know more of their other life issues and stories, the supporting cast, you know, in a way that now you just, you just don't, you know,

supporting players are oftentimes there as, you know, pieces of the mechanism to trigger, you know, this movie, where we talked about how this movie is a little longer than perhaps we feel like it would normally be. And it's longer because of these moments, because of these shaggier beats where you're like, now people would be like, we don't need to know that much about the other salesman, actually, because he's not that important.

He can he can just come in and save the day. Let's take out his whole thing with the dog. Yeah, but you guys know this just as well as anybody. So often the supporting roles in these types of films are just like, here's a slot for us to cast a ringer or someone who's on the verge of a breakout. Let them show up to set and just riff and score some big laughs in that scene. Just like fill it up with whatever funny you can while delivering whatever the exposition is that needs to get across in this scene. And what Zemeckis and Gale are so good at doing is disguising plot as character or humor, making things just feel like this is just charming. This is fun, behavioral stuff.

This is just a joke. But actually, they're setting a piece in the back of your brain that they can use later. Ghostbusters I love, but Ghostbusters is like half a very behavioral comedy with all this great character building and then the plot of the ghost shit. And it's kind of an amazing, miraculous accident that it ends up feeling cohesive. Whereas this, it's all unified. Like, that's why Ghostbusters 2 is so flawed, is because they focus on the ghost ship, but they don't focus on the characters. Let me ask a question that I, maybe it will be taken the wrong way. I don't, I don't mean to, I don't mean to slam this person.

Oh, are you about to slam Griffin? Oh, no. I don't mean to slam this person. Oh, are you about to slam Griffin? Oh, no. I was going to say, is Debra Harmon, Debra Harmon, who plays Barbara Fuchs, is she not a good actress?

I liked her, but she never really works again after this movie. And it feels to me like, I mean, maybe this is the thing of the 80s where you get one shot as a female lead and then you just are gone. But she really is gone. She's in bachelor she just does like sitcom stuff yeah yeah i was surprised at that she's fine like she's perfectly appealing

there's nothing about her in this movie where you're like unlike some of the people we've been talking about where you're like i gotta know so much more about this person like give me you know give me some big scene for this person versus like Garrett Graham or whoever. If I have a criticism of the movie, which I do, and it is this, which I wrote down in my notes, is they do her a tremendous disservice by not writing that role at all. Yeah. Like that role is so passive. She is she comes in without any engine we don't know she's just coming to just see her dad that's it right and that's all we know we she's been gone for 10 years the guys don't know her by the time she gets there her father is dead they don't feel

any allegiance to her and so she basically and she shows up so late in the film without a want, without any sort of discernible drive. She's an obstacle. That's her problem. Yeah, there's a problem where the movie, they've underwritten her so much that she only exists to kind of further the plot

that they've already set in motion and just kind of play a part passively in being used. Let me recast it and say, Julie Haggerty coming out of a cult, a little bit more injured or wounded, because she can play that, but then I feel like that's what you kind of need. You needed someone to

play something of the character and I think you could have hit all the other things but I think that she's not comedy forward right where everybody else is coming I think she's a good actress but perhaps for this role to work you needed to bring someone in

who was a comedian to find some comedy in a role that does not have shelly long right then she'd have a bit i mean her only bit is like essentially kurt russell being like uh-oh how do i like not tell her her dad is dead like you know she doesn't get to do her own thing versus basically everyone else in this movie at least gets a moment like a side plot well it's really it's tough to drop somebody in the middle of the movie right who is unaware of the plot of the movie she you know like and she purposefully so purposefully so she is yes purposefully like she cannot know what we've been doing for the last

hour you know and that's a tough thing to. I felt bad for that actress because I feel like she's in a thankless position. She can, and I'm not blaming it fully on her, but to lean into the cult of it all. And, and if you go, like in my mind,

I'm thinking cult, there's not a lot of consumerism in a cult, right? So then to come into this world, that's fueled by consumerism, it could be a really funny juxtaposition like she's the naive person coming into this can i say something when i missed some line where they said she was coming out of a cult that was when jack warden said it he goes my

daughter just called me after 10 years she's been i didn't know where she was she was in a cult right such a quick throwaway yeah oh i mean i just heard it because I thought he was lying. That's the one, I missed that. Yeah, like, but I mean, again, it's not led with it, but I think it gives you the explanation of why he hasn't seen her in 10 years and makes him also a good dad, right? Because he's excited to see her,

but she's been away, not because of him, because she was on her own, yeah, like, and he's willingly accepting her back. It's 1980. There's a lot of people who like had become flower children right or just like gone oh yeah lived in a commune or whatever like it all lines up and he's just like i don't get it all i get his head there's like you know legitimately 12 documentaries right now we could all watch about about like actual cults that existed during the 70s. Right. Did you know about the Wisconsin Three?

It's always some new spot in America. From the evil ones to the benign ones. What's the family? The one that had the health food restaurant in L.A.? There's them. There's, yeah, Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh. Everybody had a cult. But it speaks to how passive this character is,

that A, like even that setup is just to make Jack Warden look better for not having spoken to his daughter in a decade. And it's never played comedically as any sort of characterization. She just exists to help every male character be set up in whatever they need to accomplish within them. Well, let me ask the experts then,

is this something that you see in all Zemeckis films? Are the female characters more underwritten? Because I mean, I'm thinking about... Not in I Want to Hold Your Hand, because that's three female leads. The thing that's sort of intriguing about it. And Kathleen Turner is amazing.

But then, Back to the Future, there's, you know... I think Lorraine's a great character. Okay, great. No, I don't think that's certainly a case. I think Jenny in Forrest Gump isn't an underwritten character. Polar Express.

The train is a woman. I think she's crawling with ladies. Tom Hanks plays three women in Polar Express. Like Jenny is like a problematic character, but she's certainly not underwritten. I think this is a weird example, but it ties into what you were asking, Paul, of like, if she was a good actress, why didn't she have a better career? Putting aside just general sexism in the industry, a thing that's come up, I feel like anytime we get into 80s comedies on this

show is like 80s comedies were the absolute worst era for for actresses because i i think you look at like early comedies you look at screwball comedies you have these women like rosalind russell and katherine hepburn barbara stanwick who are like tough broads who hold their own right and then even to the 60s and 70s you have like goldie hawn and Barbara Streisand and all these people. And then the 80s, they really just start to become like one note love interests or like obstructions. And you have so many actresses where you're like, oh, it's weird that Beverly Hills Cop is still one of the highest grossing movies of all time. And I have no idea who the female lead of that movie is. Absolutely. And if it wasn't for the post-career of Geena Davis,

she disappears after Fletch because in Fletch, she's not doing anything. But she's not even the female lead. She's in the office. Oh, right. You're forgetting Dana Wheeler Nicholson. That's the actual, that's the point. You're in your mind relating it.

Right. And I was going to cite her as another example of like, who's the love interest in fletch we don't know sigourney weaver and ghostbusters is the one major example and i think it's only because she was already a movie star like if she was batting above her weight class so they had to give her more to do but for the most part in this era thankless you know um these are on male ensemble movies. All of those John Landis, Harold Ramis, all of those movies are male ensembles who are not really interested in women other than conquerable sexual conquests or like you said, Griffin impediments to getting to getting further to where they need to go.

And so as a result, unless it is a romantic movie like Kathleen Turner in Romance in the Stone, which I think is an incredible performance. When it's like pointedly a two-hander based on their push and pull. Exactly. But there are fewer of those that you can. But there are fewer of those that you can, then there are the kind of big, you know, big, you know, Revenge of the Nerds, Porky's, the big, the big sex comedies of that era, the big, you know, it's, it's interestingly at the same time, a period in which women are also suddenly eroticized as villains in erotic thrillers you know like it's the same time when things like that when women are also starting to like kill people

and are like dangerous the 80s are also like the same era when the guy's like well whoever this guy is he must have a real kill and then later he has to be like wait it's a woman? what? it's the 80s moralism where it's swinging to like all men are pigs he can't trust him but also like you know cheating on your wife or whatever like that'll bring doom and death upon your family like we're we're swinging away from the more like swinging 70s yeah back to like

more like no you don't you don't want to mess around with glenn close like she's gonna she it's gonna be bad news 80s conservatism yeah there's a way of or a thought process in the 80s with women in these comedy films like we don't want to get them in the muck with these men we respect them so much that we're out we're not gonna make them funny we're we're gonna make them a moral high ground. Right. Yeah. And there's that sneaking suspicion that, that her character kind of exists. Cause it's like, well, for Kurt Russell to be cool, he should be like getting late in

the movie. Right. Like I, I did wonder about that kind of halfway through where I'm like, is she just there? Cause he needs a love interest. Cause like, that's part of the five tool belt you know of like a male lead and then 80s movie he needs her for the end and because she provides redemption uh because without her he doesn't care about the dealership ultimately like he's just trying to get to the 50,000 so even if she was not there would he have gotten the50,000 and then the dealership would have collapsed?

Like, is that what the plan was? Yeah. Right. The only reason at the end he still wants to save the dealership is because he cares for her. And the last line is nice because the last line of the movie is finally her getting into the mess, right? Right. The last line of the movie is her now realizing there's value to being a huckster. But it's the last fucking line. Like, we never get to see her play. The last line of the movie is her now realizing there's value to being a huckster.

But it's the last fucking line. Like, we never get to see her play. And when she's on the stand, the bit is that she cannot even defend herself. Like, she's nonverbal. And Kurt Russell has to feed her lines. But when we meet her, the first time we meet her, she's giving him a hard time about the yellow taxi cabs that are repainted. And she knows. So she also shows us us i am a part of this game i grew up in this game right but then she doesn't have any of that game fun that she gets it but it's her background but then they sort of like defang her and i do wonder if it's going back to the 80s sort of like uh uh you know puritan sort of sensibility where it's like the 70s a lid comes off we're now like you can get really outrageous behavior in comedies

suddenly you're allowed to put things on screen and behavior on screen and language on screen that was never permittable before but then that cuts the other way to this sort of like Madonna or the whore complex where it's like, well, if we want the love interest to be compelling to the audience, she can't get too sullied by the boy's misbehavior because she has to be a good girl. The best version, the most perfect iteration of this is Sally Field being cast in Smokey and the Bandit. Let the flying nun be the Smokey's love interest. Let Gidget be in the car with fucking Burt Reynolds. Like the ultimate bad boy.

And she's the ultimate good girl. Yes. And that's such a... Again, as we kind of get back to what we were talking about before, she brings... As a movie star, she brings so much of her past to that counterculture movie, a movie about, or Cannonball Run, or any of these. Yeah, right, yeah. Yeah, about, like, this kind of, like, counterculture thing that's, like, the police are bullshit, fuck this, blah, blah, blah.

And she's in there in the passenger seat, like, along for the ride. Totally. You know? Totally. blah blah blah and she's in there in the passenger seat like along for the ride you know totally and like you look at once again like sigourney weaver and ghostbusters as an exception in most comedies of this era if a female comedy star gets some heat it's not because she played the love interest it's because she usually played like the janine role or gina davis and fletch where it's like you get a couple of scenes you don't have to be the love interest. You could just have personality. You can have a little energy.

Because Gina Davis and Fletch is not funny, but she, I mean, and it's weird because I only can think of her now as Gina Davis. But like when you see that movie, I think she's just- Gina Davis, Olympic archer. But I will say like the breaking of that rule,

going back to Julie Haggerty, or probably the bigger one is Shelley Long, who comes out of TV and is like, she is funny. And she's got her own sense of like what makes her funny. And Terry Garr, I think, succeeded in this vein as well around this time. Absolutely. well around this time absolutely but it's a it's a much shorter list that you have to kind of wrap your head around than it is for the men of that area where you could probably lift lift off like you know and even shelly long she's coming out of cheers where she's like this is what i am everyone knows me i'm like i'm a comedy package ready to go and they're still like yeah we don't really have a lot for you you know it was still tough for hollywood to find stuff for her to do she had a very defined like you want to play a mom you know yeah yeah she had like five years before

she became a mom yeah no one's talking about like oh my gosh mia sarah and ferris bueller's day off i mean she really hit some home runs there you know you know who pops in that movie is jennifer gray again because she gets to be the little shithead yeah she's so good at that and then she goes on to have like a real like bunch goes on a run there you know it was better in this time period not to be the love interest absolutely because that person you

that character is usually the equivalent of a manic pixie dream girl for that era that person is usually put on a pedestal and is thought of as unimpeachably just beautiful or something that is untouchable, which is why, now I'm going to bring it full on back to Kurt Russell, overboard is such an interesting dynamic

because you've got him and you've got Goldie Hawn. Goldie Hawn starting as one type of a person and then turns into a different type of a of a of a person from like it's almost like she's splitting the difference between the two archetypes and he is along for the ride and you you that movie only makes sense because you're like I think Kurt Russell's ultimately a good guy not a piece of shit. Right. Although it's a problematic idea. Oh, deeply, deeply problematic. You believe that there's something salvageable in Kurt Russell, even if the character isn't showing it to you. And also just in the sense that like,

it's based around this guy trying to make this career move, even if it's for the wrong reasons, that he wants to be a corrupt politician, that he thinks he has a future, that there are places he can go past this dealership. And Kurt Russell is just filled with potential in a way that if it was George Hamilton, you'd be like, this guy is going to be stuck at a car dealership until he looks like Jack Warden. Right. You know, there's no way out for him. Absolutely. There doesn't, you know, like there's something hopeful about Kurt Russell. There is a future there.

But if it was somebody who was closer to Jack Warden's age, you'd just be like, oh, it's a movie about like two old guys going to war with each other. Who cares? You know, but there's something about Kurt Russell's down on his luck, but still has hope. even if it's just like selfish narcissistic kind of hope in himself in his future as a corrupt politician that's still driving force enough you know in a way that you just don't you know i guess you we were we're drowning in tv anti-heroes but you don't see the same kind of storylines in movies as much anymore where where we're really tracking someone's bad behavior throughout and still rooting for them and i feel like gail and zemeckis were such mechanics of this stuff i mean i'll get into it when we do our back to the future episode but like

i've just been reading and watching all these fucking interviews with him with them where they explain all these decisions that you've never even thought about before that are such tiny micro things that that sort of disobey any conventional line of thinking in a pure algorithmic like save the cat kind of way but are things that just subtly shift your allegiances or your investment in certain characters to keep you on board. They just make every calculation correct by and large. They let the characters' choices guide the audience's response rather than manipulating the audience with moments.

They let the characters themselves be manipulated, thus conveying that to the audience rather than now. Save the cat is a good example of what we do now, which is it's, it's external things rather than internal movement. And that is very different. You know, like the, the idea that,

you know, we we've retconned one of our greatest rogues, Han Solo, into like, he was always the best guy. He was always rooting for the underdog. He was always a good dude, you know, like is shameful. worst place to start because you are you you are solving that character's core problem in a prequel in the first movie you'd have to do so much twisting to kind of yeah it's it's such a mess it's like that's where you can turn him into a new hope han solo yeah after solo a star wars story Han Solo. Yeah. After Solo, A Star Wars Story, you would have to, like, really destroy the guy. Right. Not only do they sort of solve his problem,

but they also kind of make it clear that his central problem was actually kind of a smokescreen to begin with. Yeah. There was a thing I found on, like, all these different interviews where Gale keeps on saying, like, we had a really, really specific philosophy when it came to comedy.

When Bob and I were writing these movies, which was we don't really have many jokes. And our comedies are based on the idea that every character takes what they're doing incredibly seriously. And the stakes are really high. seriously and the stakes are really high and we believe if the circumstances are funny and the actors are keen enough comedically that their commitment and seriousness to the ridiculous of that world will be funny and you do think about like how well that works for all of their films and that confidence of just like we have very few set up punchlines. It's really just asking people to buy in. And even something like the bad luck sequence is like, we're hoping that we've earned 90 minutes of investment

at this point that'll pay out like a slot machine. That's funny though, to think, because this movie got crushed by Airplane at the box office, like which is the opposite? Well, Airplane is just jokes. Yeah, it's just jokes. No characters have any internal logic to them nor do they need to like it'll just we're just gonna pummel you with jokes

and you're gonna enjoy it and of course it was you know a sensation it comes out the week before this movie i mean like not to get ahead of ourselves but they they uh originally we're supposed to make this film at universal then uh universal passes they pitch it to frank price at columbia and he's like i worked at a used car dealership when i was young i get this i am so behind this movie so like sony was like really or at columbia at the time was like really gung-ho about it they do the test screening it's the highest testing movie columbia's ever what right it was supposed to come out in august and they were like fuck this we're holding a hot hand this comes out in 10 days so they essentially

pulled up the release whoa not really having the theaters in place right in airplanes path like literally like they just pulled it up so that it was just and they also advertised it horribly like have you seen the posters they suck yes they advertise it horribly they didn't have the advertising plan in place they advertise it on the car chase at the end i've seen posters where it's like yeah it's like almost like it's a mad mad mad mad world kind of like the biggest car chase ever on screen yeah it's like and so much they don't have carussell anywhere right yeah the teaser's all the lemon thing yeah yeah yeah but they pulled it up like six weeks they couldn't get the best

theaters they wanted so they were like we'll just release it everywhere that can play it now and then we'll get the better theaters in six weeks but by six weeks it was out the marketing was bad and also not in place yet and it was just like it disappeared like airplane was the sensation it was like a landmark comedy wow what that is amazing and it's just like that's the problem it's like once airplane is out it's like uh-oh like the whole the whole world of comedy movies just got reorganized and we're not in the you know like now we're not cool. Like if this had come out, whatever,

five months earlier, maybe. I was just going to say timing is so important in these moments. Yeah. And they joke on the commentary, like it probably should have been a Bill Murray movie. It would have been a hit if it was a Bill Murray movie. And in that sense, yes,

it probably would have been a hit when it came out if it was a Bill Murray movie. But also for all the reasons we've underlined it wouldn't be as good it wouldn't hold up as well today yeah it wouldn't and also that's very early for bill murray like he's done meatballs by that point basically yeah caddyshack is about to come out i guess around there right like you know that's that's like early murray bill murray would have been i mean it would have been good it would just have been a bill murray movie i think it would just be like and know that's that's like early murray bill murray would have been i mean it would have been good it would just have been a bill murray movie i think it would just be like and it that's its own we would remember it in the pantheon of bill murray good bill murray movies

but it would not be an ensemble movie the way this is it would have just all hung on bill murray would have talked over all the supporting characters not in a bad way but it would have been i mean i'm a big i'm the biggest bill murray fan but it would have just been like you would have i feel like bill murray again he's the the planner and i think kurt russell's reacting to the plans around him you need that earnest investment you know that kurt russell provides well it's bill murray is not good at playing someone who is invested and also losing the thread, barely keeping it together Bill Murray's guys

Bill Murray's guys are always like don't worry I got this he's above the conflict if the thing dies who cares, am I right? how are we going to save the planet? and he's just like yeah whatever Kurt Russell russell you need kurt russell here to be like fuck i need this i think if he was to seduce her it would have been sleazier absolutely

much definitely he's a sleazy persona for sure right that's part of the sort of edgy appeal you believe like in groundhog day or like in so many other things you believe bill murray's you know root to be he's only out for himself you know he is without generosity in that way you know and that that's the lesson scrooged that's the lesson bill murray seems to always need to learn is to care about other people but we don't know that he actually ever really learns it here in this movie that's the lesson Bill Murray seems to always need to learn is to care about other people. But we don't know that he actually ever really learns it here in this movie. That's the lesson that Kurt Russell needs to learn. And you get it immediately.

Like he's on track to figuring this out. You know? Yeah. And in the same way that it all boils down to Russell being able to pull off the like two and a half line version of that love confession in a way that Bill Murray couldn't with two and a half pages. I also think that was another deterrent against this movie being a hit was just like, if you don't have a concise marketing campaign, if you're rushing it into theaters very suddenly, if people look at a poster that's like, it's a used car dealership movie with a lemon on the poster starring the disney guy like what the fuck is this right pitch makes no sense to audiences if you haven't really worked to communicate it to them oh absolutely and i think

that's you know that's a failing that's i mean i'm and i'm sure that's why this movie is not thought of as like one of these because this should this movie is not thought of as one of these. Because this movie should be in that kind of clutch of classic late 70s, 80s comedies. Without a doubt, this movie is. And I'm amazed it took me so long to see this movie. It's interesting that it also hasn't like rebounded like people have found it because yeah it does feel like a movie that like this like oh how why aren't we why hasn't this been on earth there's enough great stuff and russell's in

it yeah yeah yeah it's odd that it still stays under the surface with the cast with the premise it captures an era and the filmmakers yes i didn't even ask you guys but i'm assuming yeah you both like zemeckis like i assume like that's a guy yeah i'm medium see i'm a medium on zemeckis you know um so for me like this i'm like like why does like why we reclaim certain what what i would say we we've reclaimed like sorcerer we've reclaimed we're saying you know what everybody was wrong friedkin made a masterpiece we're deciding now you know that that that was an amazing movie we don't do that comedically really we don't we don't go back and elevate used cars now and say wait a minute this isn't actually

this is an incredible movie we might we we still we will do it now with heaven's gate heaven's gate is actually not a bad you know what heaven's gate's actually a pretty amazing movie well let's re-evaluate let's recontextualize all of these kind of 70s auteur um they're kind of they're lost movies and let's find ways to make them to elevate them we don't do that i also feel like comedy for the most part is of its time and people don't look backwards yes there are classic comedies but i imagine that for most people uh it's like who's going back and watching police academy those were like the biggest movies of all time i also feel the same way about beverly hills cop which i like beverly hills cop is one of my favorite films i just watched beverly hills cop two two nights ago i mean i love these

movies a good movie it's a good movie it's a tony scott it's amazing it's a great action movie it's also a pretty good comedy but the tony scott part of it is kind of almost the better part of it yeah yeah yeah right right it's a it's a good sequel in the sense that if they didn't have the first one the second one wouldn't be as good because i think they knew what they could steal from the first one to make the action of the second one better right like they kind of yeah that was a weird alchemy in that um that i think makes it work it makes it flashy but uh but we don't go back for the most part like Like, yes, there are the beloved movies. And I think we talk a lot about, oh, people are realizing, oh, Popstar was really good.

Or MacGruber was really good. Just movies that the Lonely Island did. Right. Those are the ones, right, where it's like they have the long shelf life on. Hot Rod. Right. We're just promoting Lonely Island movies. Yeah, that's a big difference.

I think when we go back, it's in a very short period of time. Like, I can think of some other comedies that weren't hits when they came out that became cult hits. But it happened within the very compressed Sandberg-esque timeline of, like, Big Lebowski got rehabilitated fast. A Christmas Story got rehabilitated fast. It's only, like, it underperforms when it comes out in theaters. It goes to TV. And within three years, everyone. Idiocracy.

That's one. Right. Idiocracy. Like there's a few where it's like, hey, you know what? This is ahead of its time. But Idiocracy didn't have a chance to succeed. At all. Idiocracy came out in one theater or two theaters.

So it's like, oh, we are discovering this thing that didn't even really puncture the surface. And I feel like, yeah, I mean, it's an interesting debate because comedies are, I think that younger people don't care about comedy history. I think where you can be like, oh, I love a certain director. And I think comedy directors often are slighted in the grand scheme of things. A hundred percent. I also think that comedies are a lot more of their time than, uh, genre movies or dramas because genre and drama transcends time really. And comedy usually reflects the taste,

the comedic taste of that era, you know? So to put on, you know, in the midst of like the naturalistic Judd Apatow kind of comedy scene we've been in for the last 15 or so years, naturalistic performances, real life circumstances, to say to someone who's come up in this time, here, watch Liar Liar. Right. Here, watch Ace Ventura Pet Detective. This is what was a normal comedy.

A person would be like, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, comedy is so reactionary, both in terms of what it's saying in dialogue with the culture at the time, but also what it's saying in dialogue with the comedies that have come in right before it. And like the Apatow movement is 100% a retort to,

this has become $20 million, star above the title, super high concept premise. Jim Carrey can't lie. Magical realism, like all the movies have some sort of weird magical element or some craziness. Let me tell you right now,

just out of curiosity, I typed into Google, best comedies of 2019 right this is comedies of 2019 according to google so there may be a this won't be depressing yeah yeah all right spider-man far from home oh yeah well you're not you're not far off so the number one is long shot which i am in but i also think is a great, again, movie that came out. That's a comedy. Comedy, but didn't get its due, kind of found its way in its VOD release. Has gotten a sort of reassessment within eight months of its release. If it happens, it happens quickly. And that was also because they decided to release it the week after Endgame opened,

which was a problem. Then the second comedy, The Hustle, the remake of Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. I love it. I love it. I mean, it's definitely a comedy, but that was shelved for a long time that they tried to hide behind Avengers Endgame and it then made $75 million.

Then, Fighting With My Family, that wrestling movie that's a sports movie i like that movie but barely a comedy yeah and then it goes to book smart which book smart you know great you know indie movie great great but in indy always be my maybe netflix movie right uh the beach bum the matthew mcconnelly carmen then they go

Once Upon a Time in Hollywood now we're stretching definitions and then we're going Pokemon Detective Pikachu I mean there were laughs laughs you're absolutely right there are no

this speaks to a much larger conversation that we could all have that I would love to have is the state of, just as somebody who writes and acts and works in this business, the state of feature film comedies is in disarray. Guys, I eulogize this at least once every five episodes. Griffin is on that horse. We're in an era where people, because I mean, listen, this is for me, and I've been in movies that suffer from this and have

you know, whatever. Comedies have now decided we don't care about visual storytelling at all. And so people don't feel like they need to go to the movies to see something that is visually unspectacular because they can wait and watch the jokes at home, not realizing what's fun is to laugh along with an audience.

By the way, this is only going to get worse because a movie like Palm Springs, which I think is a really fun, great movie. I really enjoyed it. But now it's like, oh, great. It's almost reinforcing it where Tenet is pushing off and off and off, you know, and it'll we're in a weird time but like palm springs throw it right onto hulu you know you're right you're right i saw palm springs at sundance with an audience who didn't know what they were in for and it was like a wonderful crowd experience i would have loved that in the crowd to feel them all cluing in yes which is why it then sold for like 14 million dollars or whatever like

yeah it's a it's a record-breaking sundance sale because of how well it played with audiences thought this could cross over yes well here's what i'll say and this is my only and i am on i am on team comedy i agree with what everybody here is saying the one positive about going direct to vod is the lack of bigger advertising so i was able to go into palm springs going like i don't know anything about this movie and the same thing for uh the uh be my maybe like i don't know anything about it i'm just gonna based on the stars i will hit play because i have nothing invested in it and it made both of those films to me that much sweeter. Cause I was like,

Oh, I didn't see the 10 jokes in the trailer. I didn't get, I know. Now I'm not saying that they should make them, but there was something really enjoyable from a comedic perspective. I was like, Oh,

I, I was totally surprised. But what we don't have anymore are those centerpiece, those movies, like the, the last kind of comedy that everybody it used to be that I always

gauge it by like, I'm a comedian so everybody I know is dialed into comedy, you know, big and small and rare and broad and whatever, but when I talk to like my cousins, you know when I'm like, what's the last big comedy you saw? A lot of times my cousins will be like I don't know, Br the last big comedy you saw a lot of times my

cousins will be like i don't know bridesmaids that feels like the last one that really sort of like tied the culture and that's kind of it bridesmaids and then maybe dot dot dot game night maybe another one where it did it did pretty well and has grown only in the 18 months. Yeah. Guys, unfortunately, I have to jump right now. I'm sorry to end this conversation in this moment where I'm so passionate about things, but continue and I apologize. Do you have any final passing words on the statement? Final thoughts.

Sign off. Let's go back and try to unearth these comedies because I think there's something to be found. Like when we talked about the set piece that we, all of us have never seen before, there is worth there to applaud these performers that we've forgotten about that we can, even as people who make things, reuse. Like, let's get some of these people back in the mix because they are legitimately funny and they should be held up. I want to go back and watch other movies now

because they were too old for me when they came out like just to kind of get back in there i think i don't revisit comedies at all i revisit the ones that i love but not the ones that i've never seen so that's my that's it all right thank you bye guys and that was paul sheer we now give him his introduction okay okay so now we can really get this podcast started. I feel like, I mean, and I understand why this is the case, but I've talked about it with David a lot. When this pandemic hit, right? This thing that was unprecedented that has rattled the film industry to its core, and it will take years to figure out what the actual long-term effect of this is. But certainly it seems to be changing behaviors already in terms of how people think about movies and moviegoing as an experience, and I think is only like putting steroids into trends that were

already going in a certain direction, which is what types of- Negative. Yes. Negative as far as I'm concerned. Right, and I feel like theatrical movie going has been trending closer and closer to something like live sporting events where the things that people think are worth going to see in a theater

are it's opening weekend. I need to be part of the conversation. There are things that could be ruined for me and it's spectacle. I don't want to be spoiled on social media and it's got to be something that has components that are going to look spoiled on social media and it's got to be something that is that has components that are going to look better on a big screen than they do on my 65 inch television everybody

that's the thing is everybody has an enormous television now so so you know a movie like you know um i'm trying to think of a comedy that's come out, a movie that's a good comedy. People are like, I don't need to see that on a giant screen. It's going to look just as good on my 65-inch television. Well, even something like Game Day, you can imagine people did that sort of math, and that's a movie that's actually very visual. It's a comedy that's actually cinematic,

but it feels like it took a while for people to get that. One of the only comedies in the last five years to break a hundred million dollars but but domestically it was under and also it like opened okay but then it was a rare comedy to start doing better and holding in future weeks because it felt like there was yeah actual word of mouth there which so rarely happens and is how comedies really catch on not because all the best gags have been in the trailer, but because people start telling each other. And what happens is comedy also is this weird world in which,

you know, in which we all live and work and all that. But comedy is this weird thing that when you get good enough at it, you decide now I'm going to go do that other thing. You know? So, so, so like,

it's like some of our best comedy director, some of the people, some of the best comedy visual directors, or let's say, I'm just going to say, I'm going to take one and say Todd Phillips. Todd Phillips is an incredibly good director of comedy. You know,

I think old school is amazing. I think hangover is amazing like he's an incredible comedy director he he imbues very simple like what we're talking about very simple game-based uh comedy stories with stakes with scope with scale everything and does so with incredible uh visual storytelling he now does not make comedies. Right. He's fully out. Yeah.

And he's embraced serious movies as him, like leveling up in some kind of a way. And that's the thing. That's like at a certain point, you get good enough that you're like, well, now I want to be in. I've gotten good enough at this. Now that I'm the king of comedy, I want to go do this thing because because that's the that's the real club i'm trying to get into which makes me so confused there's nothing weirder than todd phillips's career because like you said he's a huge comedy director he makes so much money doing it he's basically atop the game he's like i'm done with this i'm gonna go do a like gritty scorsese reboot of and he wins like the golden

lion at the venice film festival like it's not just that the movie did well like you know like he won like prestigious awards it's insane it's insane it's crazy also i mean the director of dumb and dumber making his like weird uh you know uh driving miss daisy which also played like gangbusters overseas and to that guy you're like comedy's been trending downwards my last couple of movies weren't hits i make this sort of saccharine dramedy and i win best picture can you imagine winning best picture just years after you did the three students insaneoges. Insane. Like, this is wild. Here's another example of this. We don't think of Robert Zemeckis as a comedy director, but let's go through his career.

I want to hold your hand. Use cars. Romancing the Stone. Back to the Future. Who framed Roger Rabbit? Back to the Future 2. Back to the Future 3. Death Becomes Her.

All comedies. There are other genres sprinkled in there but all of those movies are comedies first and foremost and then he makes forrest gump it's his biggest hit he wins the oscars and he never looks back that's the problem forrest gump was him leveling up yes or what you know that's how it's perceived yeah that's the thing that happens so often is there's a tip where once they get it. And I hate to say it, but I think it's like and maybe I'm wrong, but it's it is it is the false idolatry of the Oscar or in your case, Griffin, the Saturn. The desire this is something about even Jim Carrey was on Howard Stern recently and they started talking

about how he's never won an Oscar how he's never and he even still with everything Jim Carrey has done with like what an icon he is you can still feel the hunger and the hurt he has it's so on the surface to have not been given that Oscar, you know, which is such an incredible, who cares? You know, what's also wild is I recently watched the, the trip to Greece,

the fourth, the trip. Amazing. Great. Amazing. One of the best franchises ever. Not talked about as a franchise. Hands down,

Coogan and Bryden are one of the best comedy duos of the last 25 years they are but also I love how that movie feels different like how they find weird new angles on the exact same format

every time are you guys aware that those are shot as British TV series and are longer yeah of course but Jason how would I know that

I've grown up in the United States I only watch American television wait David you knew that listen David

as a lifelong New Yorker, David, how would you know how it works? I'm explaining British television and how it works to you guys as 100% Americans who, my understanding

is, have never even been abroad. I assume that you're the one who has the greatest understanding on this subject of any of us. Sure, I mean, as the child of Greek immigrants, I am closest to an international consumer of European content. David, I believe you to be

a lifelong Upper East Side boy. Upper West Side, but close enough. Upper West boys in the house. Anyway, trip to Greece., sorry Griffin, I interrupted you No, I went to London a thing that I assume no one else on this podcast has done

You took a trip, one might say I took a trip, but I think it was when we were doing Tick Press and on British Netflix they had the seasons of the trip TV show, which is how it was released over there. And I just like stayed up all night binging all of those seasons. Cause I was like,

I, when I fly back to America, I'm stuck with 90 minute versions of these. It's so, when I discovered that for the first one, somebody told me and I flipped out and it's so much better. It's such a reverse story. That's crazy.

It's more riffing. The trip is something I've been chasing for years. Again, it gets back to what I like about used cars. It's what I like about Lebowski. It's what I like about Lodge 49.

I like a shaggy hangout kind of rambling hangout movie that has emotion though like that's what's sort of magical about the all the things you're talking about it's like the trip you're like oh this is just you know initially maybe you're like it's just them doing bits it's funny but like what you know what's hanging this together and like those move those shows movies what they're so sad and they're so heartfelt. And they're kind of like, you know, they're kind of genuinely mean to each other and genuinely loving. And like, I feel like Grease is all about dying. Like the latest one, like it's all about sort of confronting your mortality.

But also those are the most joke dense comedies. Like, you know, if you look at things in the last 10 years, years you're like what comedies actually just have really good joke hit ratios and i'm like those four movies what we do in the shadows and pretty much the sandberg movies you named right like those are the only ones that are operating that level apatow has gone more and more towards sort of tragic comedy he's trying to do james l brooks he's given up on he's given up on comedy. He's trying to do James L. Brooks. He's given up on comedy, and he's trying to do James L. Brooks movies, and that's it. That's now his template.

Aside from the fact that the trip movies are sort of, despite not even being intended as films, what we wish we were seeing in American studio comedies, there's also the fact that in terms of the character arcs in those movies, I don't remember if it happens between two and three or between one and two, but like Coogan's soft spot is you never made it as an American movie star, right? With these guys poking fun at their own identities, that's where Bryden pokes him is you tried to cross the pond. You never fully translate as an A-list American comedy star.

And then his defense at some point starts to become, but look at the awards I've won. The character gets his sense of confidence from him. He is Philomena. He is Philomena, and he gets the serious nom

for Laurel and Hardy. Right, right. It's exactly what you're talking about. In Greece, he's talking about, like his BAFTA. i got a serious actor in a dramatic film yes and the slight where and bryden soft spot is he's a tv or a light entertainer he's a tv actor still doing a man trapped in a box but bryden bryden really is that's that's a thing in brit that Britain, I feel like, values much more, right? The light entertainer, like you say, right? Like, you know, the guy who can, like, do 10 minutes on a talk show, host an awards show, do a serious sitcom, do, like, a wacky sketch show.

Like, can do it all, basically. Do a little bit of everything. But Coogan, Coogan wants to be a superstar, an American star. He wants to be a movie star the way that american movie stars are coogan wants coogan's drive is to be the is to be no and it's in tristram shandy as well like it's it's in it's in there it's baked into that as well it is coogan getting his shot it's and it's it's so like he not only wants to be an american he knows that's funny though yes he knows it's funny that he wants to be an american he knows that's funny though yes he knows it's

funny that he wants to be an american movie star which is what he's leaning into it he's leaning into it i mean it's why the movies are good and that the guys own everything that they're insecure about but not only does he want to be an american movie star as as a comedian he wants to do that so then he can also then do the jim carrey of translating to drama. And so he's had to become very defensive of the fact where like, well, the American career didn't work, but then I went back to England and I sort of got the dramatic respectability, which is his whole defense. And Bryden is so comfortable in the fact that he's a light entertainer and Coogan has had so much more success and is so much more insecure about it. It speaks to this whole dynamic you're talking about of like how comedians

perceive what they do and what the ultimate aspirations are. That's why they're so brilliant together. It's almost as if to say the thing that I have pursued, the thing that I have wanted and pursued the most is only in service of some other thing I'm not allowed. I'm not being allowed to do. It's almost as if comedy is a tool or will grant you an invitation to the cool kid table. You know, it's almost like the high school mentality of like,

hey, I bet if I'm funny enough, the cool kids will invite me to sit at their table or will invite me to hang out with them. Not realizing like they're boring. I don't want to hang out at that table. It's a huge bummer. Yeah. That table sucks. Why can't being a comedian be enough?

But then we will, I'm certain we could sit here and just like lean in on Sandler and be like, oh, here we go. Here's another Sandler grownups movie. Here's another this. And then we reward him for uncut gems. We reward him for his more serious turns when he turns it on and is like, hey, wait a minute. I can do a PTA movie.

I can do uncut gems. I can do, I have this gear. But then when he continues to churn out happy madison movies we are all kind of rolling our eyes and being like is this still what we're doing good like i can't defend all of them sure there was some interview he did during the uncut gems tour where it was like a longer form podcast interview and someone asked him like look every time you do one of these movies you get really really great reviews. You've proven you can do this, even if all your dramatic turns haven't, like, worked, you know, financially. You always get good notices.

Why are you still doing these Netflix comedies? And Sandler, whose persona is so like, yeah, yeah, laissez faire, I'm a chill, yeah, buddy, whatever, actually got kind of defensive. And he was like, because I love comedy. Like, why are you asking me this? Comedy is my first love. It's why I got into this. Why would I stop doing it? I like doing the dramatic stuff.

It's satisfying. Yes, it is nice to finally get some good reviews, but I don't view that as a way out. And you're like, we wish our comedy stars had a little bit more of that attitude, where instead, I think, not to make this second half this sheerless half of the episode, and I'm saying half because this episode is going to be 17 hours long, about psychoanalysis. I do think there's something tied to the fact that so many comedians, their development of their comedic personality is rooted in some sort of insecurity, right? comedic personality is rooted in some sort of insecurity right yes basically what it seems to me is especially those guys that generation before the Jim Carrey the Mike Myers the big

solo it's me the I am the movie you're the franchise Farrell is the closest you have to that now right like but I think Farrell works here's the difference though and i'm gonna i'm gonna say this carrie mike myers these are guys who are solo lone wolf performers right yeah and feral likes bouncing off someone you're right feral always has an ensemble yeah he always has an ensemble because he knows i work better when other people are also being funny. I don't need to just be Ron Burgundy. Brick Tamblyn might as well be just as much a hilarious character and whatever. Whoever else, I can't remember the character names of everybody else. Paul Rudd can have his game.

Everybody gets to have a game. But in a Jim Carrey movie, he has the game. Nobody else has a game. And those guys seem to always be trying to prove something to someone else not come and will ferrell operates from a and i i'm saying this because i've been in will ferrell movie like i know him he is coming from a place of joy in that this i don't know this cracks me up but mixed results sandler's the same fucking thing oh yes sandler's all about like fill the cast with other funny people.

Let other funny people score. I want the movie to be a hangout. You can strike him for that being sort of lazy and him getting caught up in his same stuff over and over again. But those movies do feel like he's doing them because he finds them fun. Yes. And I think that translates into viewers. Like his movies on Netflix have been massively successful because for nothing else than people want to hang out with him, hanging out with his friends. Okay, so now I'm going to tie together a bunch of threads we've been throwing out.

So one, I feel like. Watch this, third beats. Third beats. Connections. You have a lot of comedy being rooted in security in terms of what drives people to pursue this as a career in the first place right which means that for a certain type of people who isn't keeping their love of comedy and the craft of it at the forefront of their mind and are viewing rather comedy as some sort of solve to the emptiness in their lives if i can say this perhaps you get to the top of the mountain whether as a director or as a star, you're making $20 million a movie. You're the guy above the title. Your films are all hits and you still feel empty inside. You go, I guess

this isn't it. I need to go serious. Maybe the awards fill the gap. You start chasing that thing or you do sort of a Mike Myers thing where you're like, I don't know. I guess I just kind of disappear. I'll show up when I feel like it. Right. Myers is like, you know what? I'm out of ideas. disappear i'll show up when i feel like it right myers is like you know what i'm out of ideas see you later right i guess i just well i'll check back in yeah i think mike myers was basically like oh the thing i do uh people don't want anymore right and i'm not gonna just be the cat in the hat instead and i can't do that i can't evolve otherwise like i can't because here's the thing mike myers could have just become a working actor. He could have been a plug and play comedy star.

He, you know, like he's good in studio 54. He could have been a good actor, you know, like he didn't, but he was so used to being these, it was all about the externals of his characters,

the broadness of a love guru or these kind of larger these cartoon characters whether it was literal cartoon character you know with prosthetics and stuff or whether it was austin powers cartoon big bright color kind of cartoon characters but the world just was like we don't want that anymore and he was like i don't know how to be i think he was like i don't know how to be funny without that and you got to give him credit for that level of self-awareness you know in the same way that sandler and farrell have the self-awareness of like understanding where their bread is buttered what they do they'll still try other things they'll be in other people's movies they'll try dramatic roles the idea that will farrell was like you know would it be funny if

we made like a spanish language telenovela that I was the star of and people are like great go do it like I that tickles me I like that you know I love I mean I love Farrell I'm the huge but like with Myers we do have that sort of sickness and we had it with Farrell I feel like when he was at his anchorman-y height where like when he takes the stranger than fiction role where like the press and i feel like even moviegoers are like oh like is this it is this the serious turn like you know it has become so much a part of the arc and like anytime mike myers pops up in something like inglorious bastards i feel like there is that kind of thing of like oh i want to see mike myers be serious like and then he you know that he doesn't want to do that like that's not his thing it's such a funny trajectory that i feel like um both tom hanks and um robin williams kind of pioneered yeah you know the flip from tv

popular tv comedian to oscar-winning dramatic actor became a path pretty close to each other. Those two did that thing that a lot of comedians were like that. I'll do that. That's the template. And it's the same template for both. It's like sitcom to Madcap movies to sincere comedies, like still a comedy, but more of like a sweet comedy, to I'm taking the dramatic roles. They both went on the same path or like the comedic role.

Like Patch Adams is a comedic role in a serious movie. Right. You know, um, uh, uh, you know, uh,

and there's like serious stuff in big, you know, that's like versus like bachelor party or splash or whatever big has like emotional stakes yeah that are that help hanks get to the next level big is his good morning vietnam where it's like oh you have a perfectly set up to allow him to be funny while the outside trappings of it are vaguely serious yes while mercedes rule can give you like real grounding element. My son has disappeared. Yes.

Um, but, but I think it's also telling that like Hank's, you know, it's, it's Philadelphia and then it's Forrest Gump that are the pivot points where it's like, well now he's America's dad and his comedies that he makes that are

successful after that point are like romantic comedies right the rare examples where it's like he's playing a human guy right the guy isn't goofy it's more based on charm or whatever hanks has this insane box office run that pretty much is like uh kneecapped by uh the back-to-back flops of the Terminal and the Lady Killers, which are his two attempts at, like, I'm going to do a big, goofy character again. And he's funny in the Terminal. He's, like, genuinely funny.

I don't like that movie that much. Lady Killers, I think he's great in. Lady Killers, he's funny, too. Like, he's good when he goes for it. And I appreciated that he did. But people don't want it. People don't want it anymore. People don't want it people don't want it anymore people don't want it because also by the time lady killers comes around nobody remembers

bosom buddies right nobody remembers him as you know a tv star yeah yeah you know yeah it's that's not part of people's uh memory of who he is you know i think i think the modern version of it has become the Chris Pratt, which is like, you want to go Let's get you in a franchise. Let's get you buffed up. And I've heard stories from friends who worked on shoots with people who are like

UCB people where suddenly on this shoot they have an entire team around them that's going like stand up straight or don't do this. Can we get a shot of him with his shirt off? Because they're viewing still their comedy work

as a soft audition for, can we make this guy more of a conventional leading man? Yes. Oh yeah. Well, that's the thing is like, like any indie movie can now take Jake Johnson and take him from Safety Not Guaranteed and put him into Jurassic Park, you know,

because of Trevor. Right, and if you get to play the tech guy in Jurassic Park and prove that you can fit into this genre, then it's pretty much in your hands to go, do I want to cash in the trips and try to be the Chris Pratt next? Exactly. And,

and, and that tip, you know, but what we're talking about now, again, is that tip is only available into these certain franchises because there are no more used cars. There are no more budget. Maybe.

Yes. It's no more main budget. maybe. Yes, it's on TV. Right. But the reality is, like, everything now is an audition for a Marvel movie,

some Disney subsidiary, a Lucasfilm Star Wars movie, a Marvel movie, or I guess now Jurassic or something. One of these giant tentpoles. And this is coming from someone who's in John Wick 3.

So take it with a grain of salt. But this is what I was going to say. Like I look at you and I feel like you are one of the handful of people of sort of like your generation, your comedy class, you and Paul both fit into this thing where it's like, you guys have done other stuff, but you really have had like great comedy careers. But the comedy career now is kind of just like you just do everything, you know, because

if you want to go from being like the guy who scores in supporting roles or on TV shows or whatever to being a leading man, you almost have to sell out your comedy bona fides or evolve it into something else. If you want to be doing pure comedy work it's more like a potpourri of a lot of different stuff because i i yeah i talk about this with my buddy all the time where you're just like it's very weird that we live in a timeline where we haven't gotten like three nick kroll character comedies oh yeah well i i used to think that i kept being like when they made the sandler deal

at netflix i was like why aren't they making tiny versions of that with all of us with it right why is and why isn't hulu or you know right the competitors they're paying him an enormous amount of money why don't they do the same for our uh crew of people i people and just give us a smaller amount of money. Name your price. You know what I mean? And say, This is a public forum. Yeah,

give us, you know, like, we'll give you, you know, $10 million to give us three movies over the next three years.

And people talk about this thing where it's like, comedies used to be, they were so low budget, funny was what sold. If people said, man, this movie actually

made me laugh, that would get people in the theaters. Because there was a little more breathing room for something to become a word of mouth hit. And also, home video was big. Cable sales were big. I think the actual residuals on those things for everyone involved were richer than when they end up on streaming platforms. And so those movies, those budgets got bigger. Yes. You know, so you're making then suddenly in the 90s and early 2000s,

you're making 60 to 80 million dollar comedies. Which then becomes a problem of if this guy cost 20 million dollars and his movies cost this much and the expectation is that they're going to gross this much. Why would we give Jim Carrey a script that's really good? If a script's really funny on paper, in theory, we could cast unknowns and sell it based on humor. What we're going to give Jim Carrey is a premise that sounds funny, but the script isn't great.

And the hope is that Jim Carrey and a steady hand behind the camera will make it funny, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. But these guys stop getting the best material. And the best comedies used to come out of, this guy's been on two seasons of SNL or on this sitcom or scored in the best friend roles in these other movies. Let's put him in a $5 million comedy.

What's there to lose? But that's the thing is, what doesn't happen anymore is exactly what you just described. And what is in fact had to take place is those people that even that are within the um comedy machine let's say you just brought up snl if that's the case kyle mooney who i think is a genius has to go sideways and make brigsby bear. Like he has to go and make it on his own basically. Right. Right.

Like you basically have to make a Sundance movie, even though you are already an established comedian. You have to make a Sundance movie or the equivalent thereof. There isn't, there aren't studio movies that are for people that are there for up and come. There are, there isn't a building block,

a feeder system. It is really just, it's's you know Chris Pratt only happens because James Gunn is like I want Chris Pratt right you know

Helms Galifianakis and Brad Cooper Bradley Cooper only happens because Todd Phillips said right yeah Todd Phillips was like I will forego my director's fee

because I want to cast these guys because the studio was like we want Jack Black I my director's fee because I want to cast these guys. Because the studio was like, we want Jack Black. I can't remember. Jack Black and the two other well-known. Thomas H. Church and Jake Gyllenhaal, I think were the three. Something like that. Yeah. It was nuts.

Yeah. Phillips was like, I'll give you back my $10 million director's fee if you let me cast these guys. And made movie stars out of all of them. And comedy tends to function best with that kind of hungriness and that kind of risk i have two thoughts uh on the stuff you're talking about one the other thing that has kind of changed in a weird way as well is that there used to also be the avenue of like we're gonna construct a network sitcom around you kind of like what you know sandberg did with brooklyn 99 but that's weirdly rarer now like that was such a thing when I was a kid of like you like this comedian you liked him

on SNL or some other thing here we go it's the X show that's it it's gonna run for 100 episodes plus he's gonna make a fortune like you know and for some reason just because network TV is becoming so diffuse that's kind of going away too the other thing is what do you guys think the biggest comedy franchise right now is because i have an answer and it's weird in in movies comedy franchise in movies did you say best or biggest biggest not best no offense to it oh yeah uh hotel transylvania that's a close that's oh funny yeah is it animated nope what is it you know action you know action comedy obviously that's what every big franchise is now it's not a marvel it's got to be something that the rock is in it's got to be a rock yes that's right oh jumanji it's Jumanji yeah like I'm thinking of

like you've got the big franchise right you got your Marvel your Star Wars your Jurassic Park sure and then it's like Sony's like yeah we have Jumanji that's the world we live in now where Jumanji is a tentpole franchise well that's the thing is like as as also a writer you know I will have scripts in development and at certain points they will reach a point where we start looking at casting and the casting lists for actors

the top 10 people are not comedians they are not comedians this is another thing I talk about these are they're not andians. This is another thing I talk about. Yes. These are, they're not. And I've had conversations. I,

I've had conversations with, with studio executives. I had a movie that I wrote and they were like, we will give you a green light to make this movie today in this room. If you will agree to cast one of these three women in the lead role. And they named three pop in the lead role. And they named three pop stars, not actors.

They named three pop stars, all of whom, what they then told me were, the three of them were the three pop stars who had the largest social media following. And they're probably funny

and relatable on Twitter, which is why they think they'd be good in a comedy. And that was their whole thing. Their whole thing was, literally, if you can get Katy Perry to star in this movie, we'll give you the money.

And I was like, nothing gives me, I like Katy Perry, but nothing makes me believe she can carry this movie. What are we talking about right now? And also, if you're bringing her in, there's a whole apparatus that comes with her that kind of just takes over your movie. And I'm just trying to make a funny movie here. So it's like a, in there's a whole apparatus that comes with her that kind of just takes over your movie yeah and

i'm just trying to make a funny movie here so it's like a it's we're in such a weird time because of the jumanjis because of all these things you know the the top grossing comedy stars are people like uh you know the rock or zach efron or ryan reynolds. People who are not necessarily, and I think all of these people are funny. Let me be very clear. I think all of these people are funny. I've been in movies with some of these people. I think they are funny,

but they are not comedians. Comedy movies have become the Arnold Schwarzenegger thing where it's like the only comedies that can get financed now are, it has to be the brand, the franchise. It has to be at a certain size. It also has to have the spectacle. And the selling point is, here's this guy doing comedy.

But to a degree now where you're like, there's no novelty in the same way that Arnold eventually did five comedies. He's just sort of become a guy with a parallel comedy career. And I think, I would argue there is one pure theatrical comedy movie star left, and it's Kevin Hart. And we'll see if it lasts but he's the last guy who does like comedy movies that get released theatrically and do well and also half of his movies are now him with the rock his last big hit movie he did the upside which is him trying to tiptoe into that prestige territory. I will say this, though. In his defense, they shot that movie five years ago. They did shoot that a zillion years ago. You know what I mean?

That's not a recent attempt. That movie, they shot that movie so long ago. But do you know what his next movie is? It's also sort of a tragic comedy about him raising children as a single father. It's a Paul White's movie. Right, and no disrespect. Fatherhood.

I hope it's good. I'll take that. I tend to like Kevin Hart movies. I'm a big fan of Ride Along, I will say. And I'm not just saying this because you're on here. But he's already tiptoeing into that territory. He's got a big action franchise. He's got his fucking lifeboat with The Rock.

And he's starting to do his dramedies. To that point, when I wrote my iteration of that movie, it was not for Kevin. It was supposed to be Andy Samberg and Ice Cube. And it really, and it, it went into turnaround. That movie died and came back to life multiple times.

Wasn't it The Rock and Ryan Reynolds at some point? Oh, no. You might be thinking of Central Intelligence. Maybe. But when it came alive again yeah it universal bought it out of turnaround uh and made it a kevin hart movie right um uh which was awesome and that i did not rewrite that was not my right you know that was uh man freddie and hay wrote the version for Kevin Hart but that

really was capitalizing on the momentum of both Ice Cube coming out of 21 Jump Street and Kevin Hart on the rise being like let's put these guys together let's lean into this two-hander that we don't have much of anymore and it worked it was great it's about fatherhood

the movie that Kevin Hart is currently making the weirdest thing about it. Paul Scheer is back. We're still doing. Whoa. I'm back. Huge reveal. What happened?

Death of theatrical comedies. Oh, well, good. Wow. I have a couple of thoughts on it. Wow. This is huge. One thing I just want to say about it is it's a Kevin Hart movie. It was written for Channing Tatum, who's another one of those guys. Like we're talking about like the rock star comedian who counts as a,

who's, who's on the top 10 list of can, can open a comedy question mark, except he, he has kind of vanished. Like there's the weird thing with Channing Tatum where he kind of is just, it seems like he's sort of soft retired or he's taking a break or something. I don't know what.

Yeah. Yeah. Where it's like, where, what happened to Channing? Like, where'd he go? But he was also in that zone anyway hi paul hi i'm back i'm excited to talk about comedy you're wrapping up that's fine i just wanted to jump on four hours left we're just getting cooking jesus no i i think it's interesting we've gotten very fired can i tell you my theory that gets me angry then Then this is, I'll bring it to the group because I talk, I yell this all the time,

which is I'm really upset because what happened, and I'm not talking about the outliers, but what happened to comedies is this thing where we've adapted this weird thing that happened in independent movies, which are these dramedies. And what is becoming the norm is it's not funny and it's not dramatic, but it's a dramedy. And then we're fucking sucked in this thing of like a really mediocre movie.

Like, give me a really funny movie or give me a good drama. But I feel like we're in this weird zone where it's like, I guess that was funny what I just watched. I don't know. Yeah. I think the problem that to answer that, Paul, I think the problem that, to answer that, Paul, I think the problem, the reason that is true is because we're not casting comedians

as the stars of those movies. So those movies have to percentage-wise lean more towards their strengths, which is as actors, rather than lean towards jokes, which is not their strength. But here's another crazy level. So when you're talking about Kyle Mooney being in the position that used to launch movie careers,

right? You've done a couple seasons of SNL. You're starting to pop. A studio goes, you got a script or we have a script that could fit you. Here's $2 million. Make the movie if it doesn't hit. No skin off her backs, right? You're Billy Madison. Right right they're now launching these sort of indie films the the the pathway to them having a movie career is to play at festivals which Brigsby Bear is the best example of this but I think the worst examples of this that I'm not even going to name are I need to make an indie type comedy yeah which either has to be that level of quirky or meta or, or dramedy. That's what I'm saying about that dramedy. It's like,

I got to show all sides when the truth is what I want to see you do is be funny. You know what was an indie comedy? Meatballs. That was fucking Ivan Reitman going, Bill Murray's funny. We should make a movie where Bill Murray can be funny for 82 minutes. And it was independent.

Give me a movie where Bill Murray yells at kids. Done. Can somebody write that? Right. Boom, we got it. And no one's making those vehicles on a studio level, but the people also aren't making them on an indie level. And indie films are now rising to the size

of what used to be the lower level studio comedies. And the indie movies that are interested in being funny are more interested in being heartfelt or showing giving you an arc being funny isn't enough can i also just maybe throw one thing into the mix that the stars of these movies and i'm not thinking of anyone in particular also aren't satisfied with doing two or three movies where they're just funny it's like no no i need to show you the range where we used to have like robin williams just become a giant comedy star and then take a drama swing don't move a little bit right yeah so it's okay sorry

all right so that yeah i feel like there is an energy of that yes absolutely no there is we we talked about that idea that like it's a step comedians believe that at a certain point once you get successful enough at comedy it for some reason is something you desire to leave behind now and become a dramatic actor like it's like if i get good enough at this the other i can sit at the cool kids table and do drama but i'm even you know i'm even saying that where that used to be a step step step now this is like let's start with that step let me show you i see a comedy movie that has a a really solid dramatic core like i'm gonna show you in movie one i got the goods to go off and be in a sorkin uh you know uh miniseries absolutely a sorkin joint yeah

like here's a career i think about all the time bill hater right, right? Griffin Newman. Well, I think about that all the time in the wrong way. I'm just like, why can't I make this work? What's the angle here? But Bill Hader is a guy who in any other era had made every single correct move to be an A-list comedy leading man. And I think it was very much a choice on his part. Barry is, for my money, one of the best TV shows of any stripe in the last 10 years it's so good but is also telling in terms of how much the industry changed that hater was like just amazing utility player on snl right just serves everything small roles in comedies working up to bigger roles in comedies being key supporting eventually being second lead in bombshell

not bombshell train wreck and uh i wish he was the second lead in bombshell not bombshell train wreck and uh i wish he was the second lead in bombshell i wish he actually was a lot of the character a lot of a lot of makeup in that movie a lot of makeup he did the first makeup test for uh for me oh wow sure they thought he was a little it was an interesting yeah curveball right yeah yeah um but then he gets to the point where in any other time period it it would have been like, hater, what's your movie? Who do you want to write it with? Who do you want to hire as a director? Who are your buddies in the cast? What's your ideal vehicle? And for years, I remember hearing like, he's working on a script with Apatow. He's working on a couple scripts. He sold pitches for what his vehicle would be. And instead, it's like, here's the master of Nunpath. When you get the moment to be the guy, you want to make the sort of personal thing that is the juxtaposition of tones and shows that range and grows you to that point where you bypass the just being the star of the pure comedy thing. Once again, Barry is the absolute best example of that. I do not criticize him at all for doing that. But I also think now that's the paradigm that people follow.

And sometimes you get what sucks, which is the shittier version of that, where you're like, just be funny. Yeah, I think that what what this is kind of illustrative of is the fact that and I don't know about, you know, we can only conjecture about what haters headspace is at at that point but at this point in time if i'm create if i'm wanting to create for myself tv is the safest place for me because i have more control that's where you get the control yes and you don't need to worry about an opening weekend yeah yeah that's where me as the writer performer i can exert more control over this than if I say to Sony or Paramount or whoever, I'm going to go into your big movie and cede control to whoever this director is. Because that's like Donald Glover is another person who could have done that. You know, who could have become a movie star. I will tell you this.

I was in the office of a place. I won't name names because I'm sure they would be fine with me saying it, but I won't name names. I was in the office of the- Was it Dunder Mifflin? The CDC? Yeah. You were in the office of Dunder Mifflin.

I was there on the day that the studio delivered the poster mock-ups for the film, a comedy film. And they were terrible. One of them was used. They were awful. They didn't convey comedy whatsoever. And they were so bummed, you know, as an office, because they couldn't really fight back on that because on that it's the level of um trust us trust us that that's our job and you work so hard and then the simplest thing the one image that represents your film you have zero control over same with trailers that that that the marketing for your movie is in the hands of not you. You know, like somebody else gets to cut your movie up

and say, this movie is this. Yeah, and give away the biggest jokes and the reveals. Like, I didn't see a trailer for Palm Springs. I'm so glad I didn't. Yes. Because there could be a way back in the day

that you could have cut that trailer in a really cool way that wouldn't have revealed anything. Just tease a little bit. Just a little bit. Trust Us was the tagline on the poster for Used Cars, so I want people to know we're still on subject. I want to say something about Used Cars. We should wrap up.

I'm saying we have two hours left. A movie that I rewatched recently that kind of has a used cars vibe um it's a little maybe slightly less mads cap which is a movie i liked when i saw it but when i on re-watch i was like oh this is a very smart movie is logan lucky speaking of channing tatum oh yeah um which is a movie when i saw it i was like that was great i had a great time i didn't think about it much you know and obviously it wasn't a big hit i also re-watched it recently it was something i jumped to in quarantine is like i think this movie would make me feel good and it's kind of used cars is more acidic because used cars is really like it has the stuff like um jimmy carter's getting interrupted in the middle of a

sincere speech where they really are like fuck you guy like you know america's a shithole um whereas logan lucky is kind of like the whole trick of that movie is that the whole time channing tatum is smart and he's smart because he knows how the system fucks people like him and he knows how to work around that and like the first time i saw the movie like everyone he involves in his scheme are the same types of people who like you know the, the system fucks. Can I bring up another movie that used cars reminded me of to get back to used cars? Good Guys, the Russell Crowe. Nice guys.

Nice guys. Sorry, nice guys. Nice guys. Which also has the same element of, I mean, I think oftentimes these kind of scumbaggy guys are often caught up in like a, more of a thriller heisty kind of a thing because well Shane Black this is like a that's a Shane Black special you know like Kiss

Kiss Bang Bang might as well be the same thing like Downey Jr. and Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is legitimately a bad guy you know like he stumbles into the events of the movie trying to run away from the events of his life that have been that are bad. You know, so that is such a Shane Black like trope that is part that is from this era. That is from his, you know, that's from the action comedies that he does in the late 80s, early 90s. Like it's he is like he's a through line up until now. You know, I'm underrated oh a great movie best marvel movie the best marvel movie um predators maybe not as successful but a lot went wrong there i think can i drop my very quick predators anecdote yes please i was out at dinner

with somebody and uh they ran into a guy walked by and they went oh my god how are you doing nice to see you da da da da and they went this is my friend he's an editor it was you know what it was he had edited I think the pilot of the tick but didn't do the series and I was like oh why didn't you do the series I was with

the tick cast and and he was like I got pulled into editing Shane Black's The Predator. And that was two years of my life where the studio greenlit a movie going, yeah, we get it. We want a Shane Black movie. He delivered a Shane Black movie. And I had to spend 18 months making it less of a Shane Black movie.

Oh, I would love to see Shane Black's cut. Yeah. There's like a full cut that I think whether or not it's perfect is a Shane Black movie. And that's interesting to me. I mean, I remember reading some synopsis based on scripts

from more reputable sources and it sounded at least it's not a Predator movie. It was a Shane Black movie about Predator, which I... Right.

Look, I'm down to that kind of idea. It's like James Cameron in Aliens. It's like, you could take a director and redo something. Totally. Oh, I love down to that kind of idea. It's like James Cameron in Aliens. It's like, you could take a director and redo something. Totally.

Oh, I love, you know, I just watched Aliens. I'm watching everything from that era during quarantine. My quarantine media diet is wild. I want to just offer a movie up to the group here as a rewatch in this used cars vein because I was thinking about it the other day

and i loved it as a kid and that movie has tones of kiss kiss bang bang it's called the hard way i was just gonna say i bet it's the hard way holy shit that's so weird i try i'm i'm i'm that uh go ahead no i i haven't watched in a long time mich Michael J. Fox is an actor who wants to learn how to be a cop, and he is paired with, why am I forgetting his name? James Woods. James Woods. I looked into the rights for this movie to remake it a couple of years ago. Can I just say very quickly, I was playing the mental exercise of,

if I became a comedy star and I was in a position to be able to make my own vehicles, what premise would suit me well? And I independently came up with the premise of The hard way and then found out that existed because i was like that's such a good comedy movie premise soft actor has to actually learn yes right the premise of the hard way is james woods is a homicide detective in detroit i believe twitter comedian james woods no it's's New York because the final scene takes place on that giant billboard above Times Square, like the smoking billboard.

You're right, you're right, you're right. Sorry, yes. And so, and he gets assigned like this, they're like, there's some actor who's going to play a cop in a movie. So he's going to be in your car with you. And that's the day that like all of the crime lords decide to go to war with james woods

and michael j fox who's just an actor is along for the ride it's right right along it's right along the movie right of course i forgot about that i want i'm gonna watch it now let's all watch it and get together and talk for four hours about it please please here's what i'm gonna say the hard way the reason i was looking into remaking the hard way is because the hard way is to me the perfect version of movies that should be remade because it's flawed it's not a great when you re-watch it you're gonna be like oh this isn't great but the bones of it are it could can, the things that are wrong are very easily fixable. So it's a rewatch that is like, ooh, so tempting because it's not, you don't watch it like, fuck, this is a gem. And it kind of is.

Remake Logan's run. Remake the broken scripts that like, you know, or the movies that can be done better. Like a good premise that is executed. Don't remake a classic. The closest I have ever come to selling something is I almost, almost talked some junior executives at Universal off of a general meeting into letting me try to develop a Last Starfighter remake like years ago. And it was a thing where where A, they were like, we'll quietly let you do this without any money

to see if it turns out good enough that we could pitch it up the ranks. But also the rights on that thing are fucked. But that's one of those things where you're just like that premise

is perfect. It's even more relevant today. You could apply like any new comedy star, build it around their personality, totally transform it,

do it with better effects. Like that's the kind of thing you want to fucking remake is the thing that didn't totally hit the first no or something that has no uh it's ip without an emotional connection you say the thing i've heard of last starfighter i don't remember it so i have no connection like wait you're not gonna have the guy who takes out his eyeballs and washes them with the handkerchief, you know, like no one cares. And that's what you kind of have to walk this line of familiarity, but not a devotion to or connection to it. It's weird. It's a weird, there's a subtle line there.

I also wanted to say other one other thing about, as we're talking about actors and stuff, I had this realization the other day, whether or not it's a good, and maybe I change it in a couple of days, but I was like, I almost just want to strive to be like Eugene Levy. I'm like, here's a guy, co-wrote some of the greatest, you know, big comedies, improvised comedies,

just subtly just working away, did sketch shows, now created, you know, Schitt's Creek, like just continually getting to do his thing for a long, a long time. But that's what you guys are doing. I'm not blowing smoke up your ass, but we're talking about these sort of comedy careers that don't

exist anymore and the types of comedies that don't exist anymore. And it's like, you guys represent the modern paradigm, which is, you do a little bit of everything. Like, both of you guys have great careers, you're, like, beloved, and you're in a lot of popular great projects but there's no longer the like you become the guy here's the brand here's the thing and

you're just doing pure comedy it's i'll do guest spots on this i'll do an arc on this i'm a regular on this i do this movie i rewrite this script i sell my own projects i do sketches not for nothing i want to be like very clear not for nothing, a huge component of, yes, exactly what you're describing, Griffin, is true. The comedy career currently is you do myriad things, including what we're doing right now. You cannot underestimate how big a driving engine podcasting has been. For building an audience? Yeah. For the rise of comedians.

You know, like, you see somebody, you know, you see people come up through UCB, you see people come up through whatever, but, like, the people that come up through UCB that then, like, Lauren Lapkus being in. The wrong Missy. I was going to bring up. It's almost the one.

It's what we're talking about should happen. Yes. Is so much about comedy. Bang. Absolutely. You know, comedy. Bang.

Bang. Is that is the SNL for her? Is the, is the thing that takes her from a UCB kind of, she's doing her own character stuff. She has the Netflix thing, but like, but like you comedy.

Bang. Bang. I think introduces her to an enormous amount of people that ultimately garners the attention of the happy Madison people who are like, how about her? Let's do the movie where she just gets to go full lap. Yes. Right.

Where she gets to be the full on character and spade is get her in the room with maybe just a little bit underneath her. Like, and then she can score and just kill it. Like and crush it. To me, the one career that I'm always kind of amazed at, and I believe it will continue to go, but Nicole Byer, I think, is like this full package of just- Why isn't she a movie star?

Why isn't she a movie star? She's the best. Put her in a movie. And she'll never be on this podcast. Because there aren't comedy movies. Right, this is the problem. This is the problem. The only reason a lot of these people are not comedy movie stars is because there are not comedy movies.

And when there are, comedians aren't in them. To bring everything full circle, you're like, what needs to happen is, as you said, Jason, Netflix having the courage to be like, let's have a $20 million slate of like four to five comedy movies made at that cumulative budget where it's like what's the nicole byer vehicle what's the this what's the that in the way that like the wrong missy is the first time it feels like they're using one of their pre-established netflix comedy stars to launch someone else's leading star career they need to start doing more of that like proper two-handers well tim robinson too it's like he did his show they gave him they gave him his characters then he got his show it's like i'm all for that but i love what jason like i've been

i've been saying where is the blumhouse of comedy forever make this one million dollar movies go and then one can hit one can 24 should do it net Netflix should do it. All these places should do it. It makes, it should not be the rarity. It should be like, it's like, it's the same thing I feel like this should every shop, every streaming service, every studio should have

a low budget comedy division that is just making deals with people like us. I mean, listen, here we are panning ourselves on the back, but to be making and forwarding... It should be... The Blumhouse thing is a collective where your ownership, you get ownership of it, you get this whole thing,

but you'd have to do it for like two years to really see the effect because all you need is one movie to make $120 million and the other 10 movies that you made for $1 million, you've just ate up all the cost. They're paid for the way they might be great they may actually be really great movies but if you have one that just hits that's all you need one a year to do minimal hit guys let's let's start a cult guys that's what we're doing let's start a cult let's start a cult uh

and let's get jack warden's daughter on board but i do i do think to like bring everything in together all these threads right it is that you keep saying that no but watch this watch this and let's get Jack Warden's daughter on board. But I do, I do think to like bring everything in together, all these threads, right? It is that fact. You keep saying that. No, but watch this,

watch this. Okay. Wow. Third beats of the second Herald. It is the fact. Connections, baby. Comedies do come out of movements,

right? Whenever there's a big shift in comedy, you're like, there's the spider web connecting all of these people. They came out of the same theater, the same group. And these people are connected there. They appear in each other's movies, right? And then there's now been a generation that never translated to film in the sort of meaningful way. It's been in this sort of like side pocket way. It's been spread

out because comedy films as a genre started to go down as they became too inflated, as the expectations became too high, as they went sideways, and as the vision went to like overseas billion dollar grosses, which comedies are very, very hard pressed to achieve. But there is this thing where comedies are also about careers. They're about low stakes, big picture in the way that Zemeckis and Gale could make several flops in a row that people knew were good. They were like, these guys are gonna make a hit. We have to just keep on betting on them. Kurt Russell isn't a movie star yet for adults, but he's gonna translate.

Like all these things that then pay off with something like Back to the Future, where you have two sitcom stars who haven't starred in movies, directed by a guy who's mostly made comedy flops, and everything's perfect perfect and it fucking explodes like a supernova and you need to have that sort of big picture low stakes long game kind of view of trust the process that's what you need to do this is my hope i want to just outline a vision

here it's scary right now that as everything has been like upended by the coronavirus, that every studio immediately went without any second thought. We can just put the comedies on VOD, right? Like tent poles, they're still considering. Mid-level kids films went to VOD. And comedies, they were like, get rid of all of them immediately. Dump it. Dump it. Dump it. We don't need to think about this. Which, yes, comedies play well at home.

But also, a good comedy plays so much better in theaters. And I think people forget how thrilling an experience it is. There's a whole generation of people who haven't been raised. By the way, My Spy, it was a flawed film that they were trying to sneak out. So they used the coronavirus as a cover. And a lot of them have been like that. But then there's something like Palm Springs where you're like that.

Another comedy starring a non-comedian. You know, and, or like, Stuber, Stuber before that. You know,

again, and Kumail obviously a comedy star, but Bautista not. And Kumail had to go the indie route, and even then he's paired up

with an action star who they're spending more energy trying to make a comedy star than actual comedians. And now, Kamale is in a Marvel movie. To the conversation we were having earlier. To tie it one more step together,

Stuber is kind of like the hard way. Absolutely. To have everything fold in on itself, this is sort of my hope. Studios seem to be like, fuck it. It's only three. We're fixing it.

This is the last episode because we're fixing it today. We're fixing the whole system. We fixed comedy. It's $300 million, billion dollar movies that have to be seen in theaters

because people want the exuberation of seeing Cap catch Thor's hammer opening weekend before it's spoiled. And that's all that matters. But what people don't realize is a hot comedy playing with a good crowd is as exhilarating a communal experience as Cap catching Thor's hammer. It's the same kind of juice that now people keep on memeing. Remember how exciting this was? Here's my cam rip of people cheering in the theater at Endgame.

What I wonder is, as studios start to go more and more, if a movie isn't a four quadrant slam dunk, it will just punt it onto VOD. These theater chains are going to have less and less things to play because there are only so many tentpoles you can make a year. Yep. They need other movies. It's why they need A24 and STX and all that.

Much like what happened in the the seventies. And even before that, it's like you have your prestige movies, your serious movies, but you have a lot of little scrappy com companies that are filling in those genre niches. I was going to say, it's all the things that right now it's genre, it's horror movies. Those are the things that people go to the theater for. They don't go to, they go to what's interesting about where we we the time we live in is people still will go to the movies to be scared together but they will not go to laugh together and that is weird but if a movie has that heat around it where people are saying you won't believe how funny this is that's my question like will it work again is it even possible to get people back but i wonder if a place like a24 could sense the opening in the industry as like suddenly there

are fewer films to play on screens because the studios aren't putting everything onto theaters or the theatrical window is collapsing to go like make low risk comedies, follow a Blumhouse model. Theaters need things to fill screens, make things that are just low risk and hope that if one of them hits, as we said, it more than makes good for the entire budget of the slate of movies you made. And you are building, hopefully,

theoretically, that next generation of people that are going to become the the movie stars of because that's the other thing i mean i'm not going to start this conversation now because i suspect it would lead to another hour of chat but we don't have movie stars anymore it's something that doesn't exist as a reality. Anybody who's still a movie star is over 50. There is nobody who's 30-something and is a movie star. In order for Ryan Reynolds

to become a movie star, he had to put a mask over his face. You have to play a character bigger than yourself. And no slight against Ryan Reynolds, but Ryan Reynolds is also, in many respects, I would think if you asked many people,

a comedy star. He is in an action movie, but he is the face of comedy. He is our biggest comedy star. And I think you could make that argument very strongly. And I feel like, and Chris Pratt has been the other person who has been able to fill a void, has a Kurt Russell thing, tying it back to the podcast. Absolutely. And been able to run.

Kurt Russell played his dad in Guardians 2. And I think forever though, they were trying to find that Chris Pratt and they did it with, you know, the Star of Tron, the remake of Tron. All these like faceless white guys that were not bad actors, but they didn't have that charisma,

that extra little bit of energy. What's gone now, and now this gets into another thing is, what's gone now I just watched The Old Guard which I enjoyed based on the Greg Rucka comic which I really loved but here's my

criticism of both The Old Guard and another Netflix action movie, which I enjoyed, but not enough, which was triple frontier extraction. I enjoyed for extraction. I enjoyed as just a straight up pulpy,

you know, um, action. Like a shitty Stallone movie. Yeah. It's like warriors or it's, it's, it's getting across town.

I mean, that's the, yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Which is another good movie that falls into that category is 21 bridges with Chadwick Boseman, movie yeah it's like warriors or it's just getting across town i mean that's yeah sure yeah yeah which another good movie that falls into that category is 21 bridges with chadwick roseman which i also enjoyed but the old guard and triple frontier um are ensemble movies where every single

person is brooding yeah like the ensemble doesn't have a joker it doesn't have a wise ass the ensemble doesn't have a comedian the ensemble doesn't have a weirdo the ensemble doesn't have any variety everybody speaks with the same triple frontier is like every guy is handsomer than the next even like the weird the weirdo guys are still hunky, like good looking brooding guys. You can't, we can't have movies in which everybody's Charlie Hunnam. Charlie Hunnam's not even Charlie Hunnam. You know what I mean?

Like we gotta, like there is no differentiation amongst, everybody has the same voice. Everybody has the same cadence. It's very bizarre. This is why I'm really looking forward to this movie tomorrow war which is the chris pratt yes uh film he had a a comedian on set i won't name names uh comedian on set to do punch up while they were shooting which uh and she's a great writer uh but also

there are people in here that are funny like Sam Richardson, Mike Mitchell, Marilyn Rice Cub. You know, it's interesting. Director of Lego Batman movie. Like, it feels like that's a movie that's trying to be a big tentpole, like, action sci-fi movie that is also really funny, where funny people are getting to score. So, I mean. And that's what you hope happens. You hope that ensembles can have that. Sorry, Paul, go

ahead. When you get somebody like Chris Pratt, who I believe is a funny person who also is looking for that in that film. And I look at Triple Frontier, which I didn't even realize came out. I remember when they were shooting that. And now I look at it, I'm like, oh yeah, well, I don't think any of these people fancy themselves a comedy person. I think the only person, it's like, I guess Anna D'Armas thinks that Ben Affleck is hilarious. But besides that, like based on their paparazzi photos, but besides that, I mean. The thing to me is like, it's not, it doesn't have to be a, it's not a comedy by any means,

but an ensemble to me should have some people that have, that can sell jokes. That's what's great about the, that's what's great about the original Predator. That's what's great about, that's what's great about all of these. That's what's great about, that's what's great about Die Hard. That's what's great about these Verhoeven movies. But Die Hard is Bruce,

I mean, at the center, I guess what I'm saying is at the centerpiece, it's somebody who, like I think that Schwarzenegger thinks of himself as being funny. I think that he makes a lot of jokes and, you know, I think is open to that. I think that Schwarzenegger thinks of himself as being funny. I think that he makes a lot of jokes. And, you know, I think is open to that. I think there's another generation where ensemble is like, no, we're all the badasses.

We're all the tough guys. And I think Shane's Black movie, Shane Black's Predator, tried to deal with Keegan-Michael Key and the cat. Like, there are these elements. But you have to have somebody who gives a shit about that. Like, just not looking cool. You have to be like, Oh yeah,

we should have a light moment here. And I think that Stallone and Schwarzenegger for as much shit as they're given all of their movies for the most part have comedic relief in them. Like, yeah. Oh, and all the great, like,

I think the great directors of this era, you know, recognize that levity is required. You i think um paul verhoeven i think james cameron scorsese is a great example scorsese movies are funny sure like like bill bill paxton in aliens is funny it's a it's a big enormous performance juxtaposed against you know ripley that is not a funny character at all deadly serious by the way I I really want a James Cameron and comedy discussion as well because I think he is what he thinks is funny is funny to me as well so uh oh absolutely officially reached

the threshold of biting his nails and rubbing his temples I think this is also now going to be our longest episode ever this is our longest episode we've also my headphones are reaching they're about to die which i know that's when i know things have gotten uh things have gone close to the three hour mark which is great i love it to be clear i mean this is essentially two episodes in one we gave people a two first right we were fully done with you said that we had another half and i was like oh it's a funny joke griff and uh yeah that's pretty much when i was watching it i was on my conference call watching it go on i was so excited to jump back in i couldn't wait i was so upset to get off and uh pushing my call kept on pushing it pushing it i was like i gotta get on it now

i got on it and then you guys are still here usually when we have you know people who have busy lives on our podcast we're like well let's try and get them out you know let's not try and take up too much of their time there we go this is all all i have to do today and nothing i want to do more than talk to the smart funny people about smart funny stuff well j. I think you and I are in similar boats as a single man who live alone and are paranoid about this virus and never leave our homes. Losing my mind.

I am right now away from my home at a rented house in a safe area and my children are down by the pool and I am in here railing against the system. You're in here and you're like, okay, but guys, James Cameron, let's get into his comedy stuff. Let's talk about his use of comedy.

Well, guys, let's, I think we've started a lot of larger discussions that will need to be continued at some larger point in time and we need to figure out another episode we can do. You're going to have to come back.

I'm sorry to tell you you're going to have to come back. Happily so. Happily. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey guys, do you have anything you want to have to come back. Happily so. Hey guys, do you have anything you want to plug? Talking about how great comedy is right now. I'll plug something really quickly.

Last week, Rob Hubel and I hosted a show on Tiltify and YouTube where we were raising some money for Color of Change. You can actually still donate to this thing. We're up to almost $9,000 right now. Jason's on it. June Diane Raphael from how to get made is on it. Nick Kroll, Carl Tart, Tom Lennon.

And I feel like I'm blanking on somebody else. They're all on it. It's super fun. And you could check it out. You can go to my YouTube page and you'll have the Tiltify link right there. But I think that's a fun, a fun thing to check out. You know,

we talked about small indie comedy kind of stuff earlier. I made a movie a couple of years ago called the long dumb road. Yeah. That's now out on Netflix written and directed by Hannah Fidel. Who's fantastic. Who's made great movies in the past called A Teacher. Yeah, great filmmaker. Co-written with Carson Mell, who's a Silicon Valley writer,

who's an incredible writer. Great novels, too. And so that's on Netflix. And also I'm one of the voices in the new J.G. Quintel animated show on HBO Max called Close Enough that's really fun, family, absurd from the guys that did a regular show

but a very adult cartoon. It's really funny. Oh, and by the way, I'll also plug that How Did This Get Made season two is starting August 20th and that will be...

Wait, How Did This Get Made season two? Unspooled season two. Oh, wait, did I say How Did This Get Made? Yes, Unspooled season two. How Did This Get Made I say how did this get made? Yes, unspooled season two. Very exciting. How did this get made?

A second season would be. There it is. I was going to say. That's the longest first season of all time. Paul Scheer is trying to make how did this get made into unspooled. I knew it. I was planting a bit, and I thought too much of the bit, and then I said, how did this get made?

Wow. Yeah, unspooled season two. I was like, and shit, that shows me, because in my mind, I was like, have we been doing seasons? That's hilarious. thought too much of the bit and then i said how did this get made wow yeah let's pull two i was like and that shows me because in my mind i was like have we been doing seasons hilarious sorry for a minute first season was a decade long yeah the first season was season two is gonna be two decades wow it's just like british uh series though so david you wouldn't understand this uh it's we're only doing two seasons and then we're done. David has fully surrendered he's given up his headphones have died one of them's dead

this one's hanging on one of them's trying to go those earphones often die on me during podcast recurrence wrap it up guys sorry thank you guys so much for being here and check out all those things it was wonderful to have you guys and we'll email you guys soon to for being here and check out all those things. Thank you genuinely. It was wonderful to have you guys.

And we'll email you guys soon to figure out another episode to do. Perfect. Now we need to start solving other genres in Hollywood. We fixed comedy. Let's save the adult drama next. Oh, I would love that. Happily.

That's the other thing I've been watching a lot of. Thank you all for listening. And please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thanks to Andrew Guto for co-producing this show. Lane Montgomery for our theme song. Joe Bone and Pat Rounds for our artwork. Go to blankies.reddit.com for some real nerdy shit. Tune in next week for Romancing the Stone.

One of my favorites and as always this is a podcast called blank check it's about filmographies directors of massive success early on in their careers they're given a series of blank checks make whatever

crazy passion products they want sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby this is a mini series on the films of Roberts and Mekas it's called podcast away and

our guests today are Jason Manzoukas and Paul Scheer