Blank Check with Griffin & David - What Women Want with Lola Kirke

Episode Date: October 21, 2018

Actress and singer-songwriter, Lola Kirke (Mozart in the Jungle) joins Griffin and David to discuss 2000’s high-concept rom-com, What Women Want. Together they examine the careers of Helen Hunt and Mel Gibson, the other benefits of electrocution and how this film holds up 18 years later after its release. This episode is sponsored by [Talkspace](https://talkspace.com/check) (CODE: CHECK) and [Amazon Prime Video](http://tryprimechannels.com/check). And check out Lola Kirke’s new album [Heart Head West](http://www.smarturl.it/heartheadwest) and her starring role in the feature film, [Gemini](https://www.hulu.com/movie/gemini-f993a2e8-4b6a-455a-9965-ce725018801e). Music selection: “Mr. Man” from [freesfx.co.uk](https://www.freesfx.co.uk/music/). Licensed under [Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License](http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/).

what's the difference between a wife and a podcast? After 10 years, a podcast still sucks. That was a heartbreaking moment. Terrible. Terrible. I mean, that's how the film sets up this character who's going to be not really redeemed by the end of the movie. I like that he was fired. I like that too.

That was helpful. Spoiler alert. He is fired, but is he fired? Not to spoil the last thing. He's hired as her boyfriend, but fired as a... That was the. Spoiler alert. He is fired, but is he fired? Not to spoil the last thing. He's hired as her boyfriend, but fired as a... That was the implication? I think so.

Because I was worried that she fired him and then he's like, hmm. And she's like, oh, no, come on. No, that was what was such a relief about that movie

because as somebody who is a woman and is also as a woman, I hate that sentence. But I mean, look, this movie is about the fact that men and women are so different.

You're speaking Venutian right now. We gotta own our languages here. What I mean to say is that I've never really seen a movie to this day about like a woman's struggle with her success being something that is ultimately a triumph at the end. Sure, right. Like it always, like even Working Girl. Her career a triumph at the end sure right like it always like even working girl right triumphs at the end yeah and like and there's this new understanding

that like that like she's gonna get her job back and she she fires the guy and then but he can still be her boyfriend she can have that kind of the both she can have both of those things but it but it does mean that he'll have to be a stay-at-home dad or something. That's a good point. It's a shame the movie isn't about her. Right. But there is even that section where they sort of bond. She talks about the fact that she blames herself for ruining her marriage because of her career and everything.

Right, right. The movie kind of offers a corrective to that. Right. It's like, no, that guy sucked. Yeah, you never see that. That's not on you. Yeah, that's true. I just recently watched

a star is born the the barbara streisand and like that's another movie about a woman being successful that ultimately like kills the man yeah like yeah every time every time it's like i i and it was such a relief to me as somebody who wants to continue to find success in my professional life to watch a film that offers this alternative narrative that's like, that actually can work. And like, you can be with somebody who might actually really love that about you. Like, he does say that in the film

when they're at that bar. Is What Women Want really good? Is that our conclusion? I'm now more in favor of this movie than I ever have been. I mean, I have to say. That is a good point. So you're saying that's like a one to a one and a half stars? Is that what bucks it up? Well, and I'll say this.

If, you know, based in nothing other than a reading of her work, I gotta think that's kind of a Nancy Meyers influence. I mean, I was thinking about her too because all of those movies that I just listed are both of those movies, A Star is Born and Working Girl, which are about successful women, are directed by men. And I was like, this is such a, What Women Want offers such a distinctly female or feminine perspective,

which is that that's actually all of the intricacies and the nuance of how difficult that success can actually be. For A Star is Born and Working Girl just and we're only using those as comparisons as I recently watched them.

The three films about women. The three films about successful women. It's just the the the pursuit of success. That movie it's not about what happens

once you actually have it. Right and Jurassic World is the other example. But I think I haven't seen it. Well in Jurassic World she's hit the apex, and it's all downhill from there.

And everyone tells her that she's making a mistake because she doesn't want to have a boyfriend and kids. Right. Even though she's wildly successful running a dinosaur park. Oh, God. But not that we should keep talking about that movie on this podcast, because this is a podcast about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their career

and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And this was the passion project? This is the one that gives her the blank check. Oh, and what was the passion project? Well, the rest of her career. But especially her next movie, Something's Gotta Give, is like this where she's writing and directing now

because she didn't write this movie. This is the one she didn't write. You know, she gets to hire who she won't write. That's like her project. It's about her, obviously. The rest of her films feel like she's a weird example of someone who got to make really personal, really big budget movies in the studio system. Some of that has to do with just her taste lining up with commercial sensibilities.

But something's got to give is like not a movie you would think would be easily greenlit. Even if you have Jack Nicholson, Diane Keaton, her, the two biggest stars in that age bracket, you're like, it's kind of like a modest sort of love story about two old people in a house.

There's no supernatural moments. No, no. Although I have a read on that movie that I will debut next week that it is somewhat supernatural. It's a sequel to Wolf. Yeah. Because all the white,

like in Diane Keaton's in all white, she's an angel. Well, like the movie begins with Jack Nicholson having a heart attack and then he's trapped in that Hamptons house and Diane Keaton is sort of swanning around and it's all white and he's like reckoning with himself as a person. Is he in purgatory? Is that what this

movie's about? You're really blowing the load for next week's episode. I know. I'll get into that. So we're not talking about that. Sorry, I just watched something. But this is the term that was recently sort of coined by Lux Alptraum, our past and future guest, was the guarantor. Like, this is the movie that gives

her the checkbook. Okay. Because this, at the time of its release... Big hit. The highest grossing romantic comedy ever made. Yes. And it's still number two. It's still number two. Almost three years later. Behind my Big Fat Creek wedding. Yeah. Oh my god, my big... I'm so impressed by my Big Fat Creek wedding two. Almost three years later. Behind my Big Fat Greek Wedding. Yeah. Oh my God. I'm so impressed by my Big Fat Greek Wedding. I know.

Well done. And my Big Fat Greek Wedding is a rom-com, but it's also like a family com too, right? Yeah. This is like a rom-com. Yeah. Right. And it performed in such an insane way. Of course, we're talking about the films of Nancy Meyers.

This miniseries is called What Else But Something's Podcast. Right. And today we're talking about what we want. Now you see the level of humor on this show. Oh yeah. Elevated. I mean, you've known Griffin since he was what age? 11 and he's had the exact same sense of humor.

I think I was told you were 11. Because we met in 2002. We're at that threshold point now, past the threshold point where we have known each other for longer than we haven't known each other yeah which is a weird thing

to think about that's really scary like the vast majority of our lives we've known each other and have just been causing each other anxiety and grief yeah like when I was

10 minutes late today and you acted like I was well because I'm never late to anything and I just can't tolerate it you're never late for anything I can't tolerate it Lola

Griffin has been late to I would conservatively say 80% of our podcast recordings over three years. I have not once but twice been two hours late to an episode. Isn't it a relief, though, when someone is later than you? It's always so good when you run and run and then you walk and you're like, oh, no one's here. Oh, God. It's all gone. The greatest feeling.

Our guest today, longtime friend, wildly successful actress and musician. And woman. Superstar and woman. Let's, number one credit. She's a woman. Listen up, folks.

Hold for applause. We got a lady for this one. Lola Kirk is here. Hey, Lola. No one, oh, hi. Nice to meet you. No one's clapping.

No one's clapping. So, I, I had mentioned you. We had Becky Drysdale on a previous episode. Oh my God. We to meet you. No one's clapping. No one's clapping. So I had mentioned you. We had Becky Drysdale on a previous episode. Oh, my God. We talked about summer camp, which everyone loved. It was the most popular thing that has ever happened on this podcast.

People asked for more of it. Really? No, absolutely not. They were curious. They protested in the streets. Why am I listening to these fuckers talk about summer camp? But your name came up, and then people were like, I didn't know they were friends. She's got to be on the show.

So then I reached out to you and sent you a whole long list of the next 30 things we were going to do and you were like, I don't care. Pick any movie. So I was like, I feel like you're going to be angriest about what women want. Oh my god. On the contrary. Which I'm very surprised by.

Because I think David and I have both been sort of dreading talking about this movie. We want to talk about Nancy Meyers. Not dreading, but this is the, this is, you know. What did you guys think was so offensive about the film? Offensive? It's more like the film is about a man who, after a couple of, three electrocutions, finally comes to the realization that women are people too.

That's about as far as he gets. Which is just a bit of a tough watch in a two hour, ten minute movie. And that's sold as sort of like a triumph of the human spirit that comes to understand that women have thoughts and feelings too. The other thing is, it's one of those movies that I would file under the like, boys will be boys comedies sure where it's just like everything that's kind of shitty about masculinity is sort of presented as a joke even though the movie does try to like argue that yeah he needs to get out of those habits it still presents it as like kind of charming for most of it sure i mean i so i i have a different that's fine and that's great but i do i do think it's like she I think she knows

or she wants to argue for the charmingness of such a person like even when it sucks right like you know Nancy Meyers likes these sort of like jerky guys like. Sure because they are charming but I also think that like it is

it always kind of like blew my mind how how rampant like misogyny actually was um and like i i've talked about this a lot i'm not sure if we talked about this on the last podcast we did together or was it a podcast but then it was written into an article whatever the believer um but like growing up in like progressive new y circles, going to schools like the ones that Griffin and I did and camps like the one that Griffin and I went to, I always kind of like imagined that everybody was just like really thinking alike. And then I like grew up. And I also realized that that bubble was like completely misogynistic. The bubble itself wasn't like just because everybody liked like you know going to the moma and like watching like new

wave films like some cool people right and like you know not wearing bras didn't mean that like people were actually um forward thinking or orious about race, class, and gender. They weren't upending things. And so I guess it's just weird how everywhere it is. Even just walking into this building just now, I was struggling with my umbrella and opening the door. And this guy, this was amazing. It was like something out of What Women Want. this guy walked past me and he was like you know just so you know

i would have held the door for you because there were two other guys yeah that's two other guys that didn't and i was like you know yeah it's 2018 like he thinks that's charming he actually didn't hold the door for me so he's just sort of announcing yeah he's retroactively saying that he would have been chivalrous with to me yeah but like wasn't and i guess so so i think that like nancy meyer's character whatever his name is the what is his name nick marshall nick marshall what a name man mannerson i think that there's a lot of acceptance in the film that like this is just the way that like powerful men are. This is the kind of person you're running to. Yeah.

And like we, and what I think, when I, the first 20 minutes of the movie before he can read women's minds, I was just like, wow, this guy is like the girl that everyone wants to sleep with. Or this guy is the one that everyone wants to sleep with. And then when you start hearing women's thoughts, I thought it was so cool that everyone who smiles at him

actually is like so upset by his, you know, attitude. Yes, that is a very good point. And there is something to the fact that like even in the year 2000, this movie is about misogyny. Like even if it always isn't always gracefully handled. It's pushing the envelope. It's at least a film that's like tackling the shit, which I have to imagine like, this is the only film that she didn't write.

Yes, no, it wasn't written by her. Written by Josh Goldsmith, Kathy Yuspa, and Diane Drake. Who go on to be sort of like high concept, you know, fluctuating between high concept comedies and sitcoms. They're sort of just like, you know, journeymen, I think comedy writer folks. And, you know, I'm sure she had a hand in like sort of just like you know journeyman i think comedy writer uh folks and uh you know i'm sure she had a hand in like sort of reshaping it but it's not her story to begin with it's a very high concept premise but you do feel like that's what you gain from having a female

director here is that she actually kind of understands the like toxicity of uh this sort of culture but the appeal. I mean that's why I think Nancy Meyers is a genius. It's not just like a nightmare movie about like how horrible he is. Like she knows he's appealing too. I just also think that it's one of the first movies that really like

mainstream movies that reveals the woman's perspective so massively. Like I recently rewatched High Fidelity. I was with a group of friends and we were all talking about how much we loved High Fidelity

whenever it was out in theaters a million years ago. And then we were like, let's, How many years is this movie? Oh, fascinating. And then we watched it

and within 15 minutes we were like appalled. Well, that's a movie about an appalling person. Exactly. As is this film. Yes,

yes, yes, yes yes and his relationship to every woman in that film is just like so upsetting like the way that he just is like you know Catherine Zeta-Jones actually sucks there's nothing great about her whatsoever and like Lily Taylor

is like you know everyone is just so reduced and in this film I think you get to see this dynamic side of women in a man's world. And yeah, so I do think that that is the importance of having women filmmakers in general. I mean, it's so unsurprising to me that we are about, that we are, you know, facing the possibility of having Roe versus Wade overturned, that reproductive rights are constantly at risk, and that, you know, what is it?

Something like 90% of the top highest grossing movies in the past 10 years are directed by men. We have no women's perspectives anywhere. And so that's why I was even surprised. I don't know. You know, High Fidelity ultimately was surprising because i was like oh wow as a kid i thought that this i wanted to grow up to be katherine zeta jones when i saw that movie like that was that was the hope and and then watching it now i was like wow as a 10 year old girl like that was what i wanted that was what i thought would be like one of the girlfriends

exactly totally i thought that some loser like of the girlfriends in this movie totally i thought that some loser like john cusack should win like deserved me i mean but high fidelity like there's so many guys like that who are kind of like where you're like man if i sit this guy down he's just kind of a fucking loser and he's like yeah i don't know man i seem to just run through women anyway and at the end of the movie his girlfriend is like you know you objectively sucked yeah you cheated on me uh you know i had an abortion and didn't tell you about it i think right like it's like yeah and you know all this stuff you're completely emotionally unavailable right you you really you're sort of an idiot you hang out with all your relationships you own a failing record store right you own like a junkie record store. My dad just died

and it's between me just sitting here feeling miserable and getting back together with you and I've decided to get back together with you. I think that's the best scene in the movie.

That's why I love that movie so much. That's the ending where he's like, okay, and the movie's just like, you know, well, that's,

I guess that's how it goes. David, we like talking. We do. We talk a lot. This is a space in which we talk, both this recording studio and the space of the podcast. That's a lot. This is a space in which we talk, both this recording studio and the space of the podcast.

That's our platform. That's true. So, I mean, our sponsors today, Talkspace, feel right in line with us. It does make sense that an online therapy company that lets you message a licensed therapist from anywhere would sponsor this show. Yes. Because all you need is a computer with an internet connection,

much like listening to this podcast. All you need is a computer with an internet connection, much like listening to this podcast. All you need is a computer with an internet connection. Right. So, like, maybe you're someone who hosts a podcast with a good friend who's really bad at responding to emails and texts. Sure. And you're already on the phone waiting for his non-responses. Oh, this sounds like science fiction. Right. You just whip over to Talkspace and go, like, can I talk to you about this abusive work relationship I'm in?

Exactly. And it's like, if if like this friend you have, they seem to have a really tight schedule. Well, talk space therapy is really easy. You just send your therapist a message. You get off something off your chest whenever you need to. You talk about challenges at work, about life, about a certain friend with the initials GN.

There's no commute. No, talk space isn't going to get back to you like four hours later and go like, hey, sorry, I got really deep into Kingdom Hearts. Isn't going to text like two stops away. Right. And actually he's like maybe six stops away or like more often it is two stops, but he's not saying they're like express stops and there's like a lot of space in between. Like when you think about it, it's actually like nine stops. Like he's still in Manhattan, but technically it's two stops away because it's only two q stops uh and you just gotta remember therapy isn't just about venting

uh your innermost thoughts or digging into childhood memories or friends travel plans it's about practical everyday strategies for stress management and living a happier life and so having a therapist helps you you know get through that right it's your person to talk i'm talking as someone who's incredibly happy and has no stress in his life. I'm saying, I wouldn't know what you would use this service for, but I think you should give it a shot. Yeah. So you can be as chill as downtown Griffey now. Exactly. So the Talkspace platform has 2,000 licensed

therapists who are experienced in addressing life challenges that we all face. 2,000! So to match with a perfect therapist for a fraction of the price of a traditional therapy, you go to Talkspace.com slash check and you use the code check to get 45 bucks off your first month and show your support for this show david i'll say that's the one thing that sounds annoying about this you have to send them a check in the mail you have to write them a check in order to pay for this can you do it off your phone or something no you just go to

talkspace.com slash check and you use the code check. $45 off your first month. That sounds great. I love the movie Working Girls so much because, and I think when I saw that film, I was blown away that in the 80s, they were making movies about empowered women. Because I do think that that movie really is. And I was like, what happened between 1983, I think that movie came out,

and 88. What happened between 1988 and now that we're fighting to see movies about women being successful? Yeah. That's a good question. I think there are a number of things. I mean, I know I might have brought this up on the podcast. For one, this genre is dead. What is the genre?

The sort of rom-com genre. Like, which working girl is too? But those are, as you said, both sort of movies that are stealthily about other things while having a romance at their core. And then there's the parallel genre, which Working Girl falls into, 9 to 5 falls into. I would even argue The Intern falls into, which is like broadcast news. They're sort of workplace comedy starring. And now Hollywood's just like, that sounds like a TV show are you interested in making a TV show like you know what I mean like

A I think they put those things onto TV B I think it's one of the really negative side effects of like the globalization of the film industry is that shit just doesn't translate to other countries. Yeah like right it sounds fine but does China want to watch this movie?

Because A humor is culturally specific, and it's always been that, like, comedies don't translate as well to other countries as well as any other genre. And then you add in, like, workplace dynamics and, like, sexual dynamics and all those things become even more cultural

that they have a hard time translating, except for a movie like this that did really fucking well overseas and also got like there's a Chinese remake of this movie right and I think they announced they're gonna do a Bollywood one too Gong Li is I mean, it's a high concept. He learns what he says He also becomes like a great father and that part to me was really moving We're gonna talk about it. Okay I'm looking at right here like the top 10 romantic

comedies of all time. And of the 10, two of them are directed by women. Which ones? It's this and The Proposal are the only two. What's The Proposal? Ryan Reynolds and Sandra Bullock. Yeah, and Fletcher. Right.

Romley's favorite movie of all time. Oh my god. But it's My Big Fat Greek Wedding, Hitch, Pretty Woman, Something About Mary, Crazy Rich Asians, Sex and the City 1, Runaway Bride, Knocked Up, all directed by men. So you go like, this is a genre that is usually derisively referred to as chick flicks. Interesting. And they're all defined by men. Yeah. And they're mostly male writers too, or male directors reinterpreting female writers' works. And all the moments that are good in this movie are just, like, perspective shift stuff that Nancy Meyers clearly brought in that I don't think she was, like, I'm going to fucking revolutionize, like, you know, like, within this movie, like, Trojan horse, like, some subversive gender politics. I think she's just a woman.

She comes from that base of experience. And on set, she'd be like, well, you should do this. But it's also like a really smart way to keep it mainstream and deliver a subversive message. Yes. I think. So I'm not,

I don't know if it's so simple as I'm just a woman. I think there's something quite genius about it, which is like, let's take the most like, you know, blockbuster-y genre besides an action film that we can,

like a money-making genre. And let's like, you know, blockbuster-y genre besides an action film that we can. Like a money-making genre. And let's like, you know, put in all of these really high concept ideas, which is that like newsflash women have feelings and aren't treated like that at all. I mean, this is a really good take because it's like everything that I resent about this movie, you're kind of empowering. I thought it was so empowering.

I don't want to like sound like I'm belittling her by being like oh she's not choosing to do that stuff it's just comes from her base of experience but it is like the big reason why I think you want diversity in the voices behind studio films because you see these moments where it's just like well that's just second nature and you realize that like 95% of movies ever made have been made by the same type of people. Not even just like the same race and the same gender orientation, you know, and all of that sort of stuff. But even just like similar socioeconomic classes,

similar backgrounds, you know? You just like when you see films made by other people, you're like, oh, that's an interesting thing I've never seen in a movie before. I think she's also always been and still is like someone who's good at taking a very famous male star with like a real like you know defined movie star image. Mel Gibson I'm thinking Nicholson, I'm thinking De Niro thinking of Alec Baldwin

I mean yeah and making them incredibly vulnerable on screen like she's good at getting them and this is the least of those but still like you know Gibson's vulnerable like you know and she tries to like make him a little more of a person by the end of it. I was surprised by how vulnerable she does successfully make him in the last 30 minutes. Because that's the whole other element of this movie is just the Mel Gibson thing. He's just also a little maniacal.

Like, he's intense. Well, yeah. He's an intense person. I mean, there is also, I think, you know, I think that the patriarchy negatively affects men just as much as it does women. I think that there are these standards of how we think that we need to behave based on these patriarchal rules. And I think that there is this not problematic but like maybe questionable moment when like his, you know, we normalize being emotionally available and aware as something that is feminine. And Marisa Tomei's only explanation for why this person could know what she wants and not like her is that he's gay. That's the worst scene in the movie.

It's a pretty bad scene. The Tomei subplot is tough. I mean, she's so good in the movie that she makes it happen. But that also makes it doubly upsetting how they treat her. You're like, Oscar winner Marisa Tomei is playing this role in this movie. And this is the character you were named after. I know, I was named treat her. You're like an Oscar winner. Marisa Tomei is playing this role in this movie. And this is the character you were named after. I was going to say. My parents didn't name me until 2010.

Or 2000. You were girl three. I was girl three, it's true. And then they were like, Lola, we want you to grow up and be just like that lonely wannabe actress in what women want. They really kind of put a witch's curse on you. I know, it's true.

I mean, Lola is a name that really just has this ridiculous... I mean, first of all, it's short for Dolores, which means pain, I think, or like suffering. I never realized that. In Spanish. Right. Dolore. Yeah. And every character that's named

Laura Sorrows thank you I'm just thinking about it it's quite a thing to name your kid it's always some like vampy girl

well she'd go like whatever Lola wants except for the kink song no well yeah but she's a vamp too right right okay but then I'm thinking

it's a William Inge play it's maybe Come Back Little Sheba she's like the sad wife of an alcoholic. Yeah. So anyway, there's always something about like the name Lola, just to speak of characters, is like about like this. She's like a showgirl who's like in pain.

Well, that's you go the two famous Lola songs, which like songs can really doom a name more than anything else. Well, Lola was a showgirl. Oh, that too. There's three. But you go, whatever Lola wants is literally Satan's temptress. Yeah, right. And damn Yankees.

And then the kink song is like, she tried to trick me. Well, she's still a temptress. Right, right. But it's with the added element of how dare they. Right, right. And then she's a showgirl at the Copacabana. Right. So thanks, mom and dad.

Because ultimately... You and your siblings were... Or you and your sisters, at least, were all named after classic rock songs. Right. I don't know that they knew that. Oh, really? I always thought it was conscious,

but I always thought it was kind of funny that they removed... Actually, we were all named after socialites. Is that actually so true? So who are you named after? So we were all named after socialites is that actually so who are you so domino is named after domino harvey who wasn't yet um i think uh uh a bounty hunter i think she was just like lawrence harvey's cute daughter the subject of the film domino yes starring kira knightley um not the oh domino my name is domino my name is domino harvey you remember that trailer where they just played that like six times?

It was literally just that. Of course, yeah. Written by Richard Kelly. Wow. Future guest. So crazy that you know that. Future guest? Okay, so Domino was that.

Jemima was named after Jemima Khan. Okay, right. Who was Jemima Goldsmith, who was just like a beautiful girl riding horses when my mom was younger too. And I was named after, I mean, I guess we could call her younger too. And I was named after, I mean, I guess we could call her a socialite. I was named after Lola Schnabel. Really? Yeah.

Julian Schnabel's daughter. She's not that much older than you. I know my mom met her when she was a little kid playing on the beach. All of these girls were like- So your mom would just meet a cool kid and be like, great name. Yeah, I'm taking that name.

Because I always thought it was the kink song, Jemima Surrender. I know. I think that was the urban legend that went around our high school because that was like pretty dramatic. I like that way better.

Daughters after rock song. I know. I like that better than being named after socialites because again, here's the thing about that. I think that that really informed

what my expectations should be as a woman. Like grow up to be famous because of your associations with other famous people instead of grow up to be successful a woman. Like, grow up to be famous because of your associations with other famous people instead of grow up to be successful. Sure. Grow up to be Catherine Zeta-Jones

who's beloved because she's awful instead of grow up to be, you know... You're the most compelling person at the party. Yeah, exactly. Right, that's your social currency. Yeah. I'll say, I mean, I think one of the reasons

I struggle with this movie is that even though it is sort of indicting a lot of this behavior it is one of these movies that very didactically goes like these are men and these are women there's that problem which i do have a line where it's like everyone assumes he must be gay or makes gay jokes or they put in these gay situations it also just has this concept in the middle of it where it's i mean we just have to deal with a lot of scenes of a woman thinks something and he repeats it and you just sort of watch it happen over and over again.

Yeah. And like that's enough for him to sort of like, you know, bewitch everyone in the room. Right, right. And like not only is that a little annoying, it's also just a little boring to watch it. Like I'm just talking about like, I want to be entertained here.

Like, you know. Right, and he just sort of succeeds off. I mean, I'll get to this in a second, but I. Like, you know, the concept gets a little flimsy. Right, and he just sort of succeeds off, I mean, I'll get to this in a second, but I feel like, you know, I was a very emotional kid. I'm still an emotional person,

but I was a very emotional kid. I'm glad to hear it. Yes. None of you have any knowledge or understanding of that. No, I think of you as calm, sort of verbose.

Well-adjusted. Well-adjusted. Yeah, that's the key line. Good at doing basic things yeah but like movies like this even if they're trying to

sort of like criticize the behavior do make it go like well this is women and this is men and I as a kid who like only understood movies

like they were the only codex I had for understanding the world always felt fucking weird because I didn't feel like the male characters. So as part of your, like both of your problem with this film is that the,

what is the representation of men in the film you feel is too like, no, I got no, I got no beef with that. I just think even if it is trying to make the arguments against men and for women, it still is a little didactic in how it represents them

and I feel like this is one of those movies where even though they were damning him I would sit there and go like well am I like fucked up because I'm not like this like when he starts acting emotional like that's how I feel like I am all the time oh my god well I mean I feel that way which just talks about how like the patriarchy like affects men

too like I think about how many movies fucked me up where I was just like, I guess this is what a boy's supposed to do. Yeah. I mean, it's so... It's all about you, Griffin. But I think... I'm kidding. I'm joking.

Oh my God. You didn't like that. You didn't like that at all. One comedy point. I think that that's really important. I definitely struggle with feeling like square or not cool because there are certain things that, that I like morally or creatively won't do.

Like I was recently, I, all of my life I've felt a struggle between like, um, like, I don't know, being a shitty person or not a shitty i'm trying to think how i should frame this like a monster no it's like serial killer what's the term you're looking for i'm

trying to like i remember growing up and they were like i i was a very obedient kid but i also like wanted to do a lot of bad things so my way of of like doing- Where were you in the sibling? Were you the baby? Okay. But, you know, I think that I erred on the side of just like hanging out with people who I knew would do worse things than me because I would never be brave enough to be like, let's steal mom's Xanax and like, you know, have a threesome.

I also think, I mean, not to like, you know, stop me if I'm out of line here, but you would, like, talk about this, that there was, like, the complex of, like, your sisters had been wilder when they were your age. Right. And you didn't want to, like, fulfill the prophecy. about what was expected of me as a woman who wanted to be powerful and free um but also wanted to have like meaningful relationships and like you know um and and be loving and loved because those characters in movies are usually presented as like callous and ultimately right like you're either this like vampy wild woman who cares nothing for other people's feelings or this like ingenue essentially and so i think that this is like an apt thing to talk about because I think

that these characters and, and these notions and movies do deeply affect us in our personal lives. Yeah. Um, and I think to this day I still struggle with like, what character should I be in the world? And like, I think that I was talking to my friend recently about,

um, she's married and she's having a baby. Humble brag. What. Humble brag. What? Humble brag. Go on. Sorry. I have friends who were really grown up.

She's humble bragging. No, not them. Congrats to them. Humble brag to you. She's married and she's having a baby. And we were talking about, um,

like this Joni Mitchell, like archetype of woman. Like Joni Mitchell to me is like always writing about like running away, taking another lover and like ultimately being alone. And like always writing about like running away, taking another lover and like ultimately being alone. And I've always been like, wow, if I want to be cool,

I have to do all of those things. And my friend was like, you know that that's internalized misogyny too. And I was like, how is that internalized misogyny? And she said to me that like these notions

of like that freedom means like being alone and like sowing your wild oats and basically fucking everybody that you possibly can. Those are male notions. And because the free woman or the empowered woman is like kind of a phenomenon essentially of the last like 15 years. Right. Something that's been growing over the 20th century, but really booming in the 21st century. but really booming in the 21st century,

I think that we understand that being powerful means adopting what has meant power for men. And also that it's this sense of those things are compartmentalized, and if you want to be a wild woman, that's fine, but know that the tax you pay is you end up alone. Totally. There's an algorithm. It ends at the same, you know. And that's why I was actually really relieved

when I was watching the emotional struggles of Helen Hunt's character in that film. Because it was, I don't think I've ever seen a successful woman character articulate that she doesn't want to be left because she's successful. Sure. Yes, yes.

That she wants to be loved instead of hated for that thing she wants to have a home yeah she's that she wants plans for her future and she she we imagine gets some version of that at the end of it and like i i just you know i i didn't really see that represented in movies that i watched when i was younger uh yeah and i feel like watching this movie my memory of it and and also re-watching it last night was like, okay, the first half is like a weird Mel Gibson high concept, like men are like this, women are like this comedy.

And then the second half just becomes this sort of like rom-com romance between the two of them. And my struggle was always, I don't think they have a lot of chemistry and I don't want to see her end up with him because he sucks sure but i if you view it through the prism of almost like there's a narrative handoff and it becomes about just sort of her internal life which you get to see because he's hearing her thoughts and you get to hear her thoughts by proxy the movie does work better i'll say i mean i just remember in high

school a friend of ours who i will not name told me once that she was always in class. She wouldn't answer questions because she didn't want to seem as smart as she was because she thought it would be intimidating. Classic phenomenon documented in all education, the most depressing shit in the world. Can I actually say just to add to that in college, one day I woke up,

I was a freshman and I was miserable and i woke up and i couldn't i couldn't like sit up in bed i had what i found out later was a bruised coccyx sure you guys know what the coccyx it's a tailbone yeah oddly named a coccyx and i went to the doctor who told me that and she um was like yeah it actually happens a lot to freshman girls because they have such low self-esteem that they slouch and they sit incorrectly in class that sucks yeah isn't that horrific patriarchy breaking coccyxes the plural of coccyx coccyx yeah uh yeah so this movie i mean let's i saw it's an icon picture which was Mel Gibson's production company

Oh that's what that was Which is so weird It's still running That logo feels like it was designed just to be in front of Passion of the Christ I know but it started with Hamlet That was his first and it was Braveheart

Wait can you guys update me on Mel Gibson because my boyfriend It started with Hamlet. That was his first, you know, and it was Braveheart, all his, you know, big movies. Wait, can you guys update me on Mel Gibson? Because my boyfriend seemed to be like, oh,

Mel, like, have a much better, clearer picture of it than I did. That made that movie even more problematic for him to watch.

David literally, right before you showed up, just had to file a piece for the event. because he just got hired to make a big movie. So my boss was like, what's,

basically it's the same question. Where are we at with Mel gibson tell me so you know you got mel gibson australian uh actually american but moves to australia as a boy he does have a great australian i mean american accent sorry yes yes he can do both in new york he lived in like westchester until he was like 10 uh yes are his parents american his father's australian right no his father is british right no american yeah oh crazy did they just move to australia they moved to australia when his full name melvin his full name is mel mel wow gibson i don't know what to tell you um but uh yeah no uh his father is a crazy person yeah famouslyously insane. Holocaust denier. Holocaust denier, possibly. One of those Catholics that doesn't accept Vatican II.

So like a sort of prehistoric Catholic, basically. He doesn't like sequels. Exactly. That was his problem. Vatican II. Yeah, but moves to Australia. Becomes a movie star, right? He's in Gallipoli and You're Living Dangerously and Mad Max.

No, Gallipoli's the start. Really? I thought Mad Max was his first film. I don't think so. I think that's true. The story also is that he gave his friend a ride to the Mad Max audition, had gotten in a bar fight the night before, and George Miller was like, who's that guy?

You're right. Mad Max first. Thank you. Well done. Because I think it's important that mel gibson's career was founded both his australian career and then his successful transition to the states is founded on him being a maniac yeah he's crazy it was like mad max it's like here's this guy he goes crazy he's got these eyes you know these eyes that are always sort of like dancing around

he always looks so intense on the verge of just like having a full mental break. And then like he spends basically, you know, he's in Lethal Weapon which brings him to the States. Where he plays a guy who's on the edge. And like he spends like

I would say basically 15 years being like one of the biggest movie stars. Right, then he sort of dulls the blade a little bit and becomes more acceptable, is a little less crazy, a little less manic

for a while. But I mean like tons of big movies. Huge. And makes Braveheart obviously and wins Oscars. Wins Best Picture, wins Best Director. He's like the guy big movies. Huge. And makes Braveheart obviously. Wins Best Picture.

Wins Best Director. And then this He's like the guy in Hollywood. And this is his biggest year arguably because he has The Patriot and this. And Chicken Run.

His greatest film. I loved Chicken Run. Yeah. Fucking amazing. My whole life flashed before me eyes. It was really boring. Great line.

It's a great line. I don't want to be a pie. I don't like gravy and then you know after this he does We Were Soldiers and Signs in 2002

Signs which ends up being his biggest hit he makes The Passion of the Christ in 2004 which is I think when people start to wonder like what's up with Mel Gibson

making an Aramaic like snuff film about Jesus but just to cite two stats this year 2000 he is the first actor to have $300 million movies in one year. And he also becomes the highest paid actor

in Hollywood. He gets $25 for The Patriot. So he's like top of the roost. He makes two more movies. The last film he makes is his biggest hit ever. And then he's like, I'm gonna make a fucking self-financed Jesus biopic in a dead lane. And it makes a gazillion dollars. Right. Everyone's reaction to that was,

he's insane, he's ruining his career. And it becomes the most profitable film in history. What? Yes, and also accused of anti-Semitism. Right, right. And then he makes Apocalypto, which is a film about the Mayans. It's his best film.

It's an awesome movie. I haven't seen any of his movies. And pretty much right after that is when he's arrested for drunk driving and rants about how all the Jews are responsible for all the problems in the world and calls the cops sugar tits. That was the thing. He was known as a conservative and a Christian sort of extremist, but he always kind of kept it on the down low. And this was still an era where… It's the pre-internet era. So when he would say shit, it't you know that's the thing linger in the same internet

you could really craft persona and stick to it because you didn't have to be that out there all the time you know like it was like he'll be on the tonight show once a year right right now like so uh the passion of the crisis when people start going like Stodgy is this movie anti-Semitic and he was kind of like no no you know but then a year later while

he gets arrested he says all this shit Jews are responsible for other worlds in the world this and that and then he's sort of like Apocalypto comes out after that does pretty well

but he vanishes he vanishes doesn't direct another movie doesn't star in another movie goes in rehab goes through a divorce is one of the biggest divorce payouts ever because he made

how much 400 million dollars oh to Robin she was married to him movie, goes in rehab, goes through a divorce. He has one of the biggest divorce payouts ever because he made... How much? $400 million. To Robin, who she was married to him for like the 80s, like for decades. And had like 10 kids with her. A lot of that was because he self-financed Passion of the Christ. He made like all the money. He's so rich.

So rich. So this is when he starts to go off the reserve, goes under, and you're like, okay, maybe he's sort of getting his life back together comes back does a couple edge of darkness which no one sees what is edge of darkness

it's like a revenge movie it's like a remake of a BBC miniseries it did fine whatever and then he gets his girlfriend Oksana Gregoria I think her name is files

charges against him for domestic violence records him there's that very shocking recording yes oh right where he's saying

all this insanely bad shit to him and she's like you hit me and he says you deserved it it's all on the tapes who

what agency is he with he was with it's a good question are you about to decide whether you leave your agency no he was with he was with ari emmanuel was his agent and ari emmanuel fires him after this good as a proud true yeah you know and famously wrote a big article throwing him under the bus in 2006 the agency didn't actually fire him until this oh wow that's insane and you know so then he he makes, whatever, I guess he goes back to rehab. I don't, you know, I don't know.

He pleads no contest to domestic violence. So, you know. Did it. Right. Three years probation. I literally just wrote an article about this. It is so damn. The tape is very shocking.

I remember that tape now. He says, like, he in one sentence, like, involves, it involves racial prejudice, sexual assault. It's incredible how bad it is. And Jodie Foster puts him in the beaver the year after. Bet she does. He has had two big people who keep on publicly... Jodie Foster will always stick up for him and say he's a wonderful guy. And Robert Downey Jr. is the other one.

Because when Robert Downey Jr. was going through... He stuck his neck out for Robert Downey Jr. So I think Robert Downey Jr. has some sort of... When he was in the depths of his addiction problems, Mel Gibson put up the insurance bond to have him co-star in Air America. And apparently was always kind of like... Attempting to be a sober coach for him. Yes.

So Robert Downey Jr. has always been like I was unhirable for years and years I was a fucking mess we gotta give Mel another chance and Jodie Foster

for no clear reason has been like I know this man I vouch for his character. They were in Maverick together. Right. But the Jodie Foster thing there's not a clear tie

other than her saying he's a good friend of mine. She'll stick up for him. People deserve second chances third chances fourth chances fifth chances. That movie's a bomb

and is very strange. Which was like the hottest script in Hollywood That movie's a bomb. Yeah. And it's very strange. Which was like the hottest script in Hollywood and then became a movie that didn't exist. The one where he has like a beaver puppet on his hand and it like goes like, oh, I'm a beaver. When was that? 2001. Like Jennifer Lawrence. It was like early Jennifer Lawrence, Anton Yelkin. I fought so hard for that fucking Anton Yelkin part.

Did you? So hard. Did you audition for Jodi? I didn't because it was like she was seeing very few people. It was just taping but I think I got somewhere with it.

She's in it too, right? She's in it and she directed it. She's the wife, right. But it was like the hottest script and they were like Jay Roach is going to make it with Steve Carell

because it was like a comedy and then suddenly it was like Jodi Foster is going to make it with Mel Gibson. Do you know how it ends? I mean you know how it ends. Right. Spoiler alert

he cuts his hand off with a buzzsaw. He's like a guy going through like a manic episode who has a disassociative sort of like break and starts externalizing his mania. There's so much you have to get through with Mel Gibson. Through a beaver hand puppet. Right. Who talks in an Australian accent. Right. Who becomes very successful and like takes over his life but becomes like the head of his business, romances his wife.

And then he realizes the puppet's evil and the way he ends the movie is by cutting off his hand. It's an insane film. His arm pretty much. But that was like number one on the blacklist and they were like, this script's going places.

Yeah, it was one of those scripts that I think bewitched Hollywood by being so odd, but I don't know, whatever. I remember reading it and being like, yup. Right, right, right. And now I'm like, what?

And then after that, again, he does pop up in things like The Expendables 3 or whatever, but he doesn't really have a serious role. And like machete kills. The joke becomes like, oh, look, he's bruised. We're putting him in sloppy genre stuff as the villain. He's just a scumbag. But it's like a two-scene appearance or whatever. Yeah, for how much money, though?

Oh, I don't know. And then he was supposed to be in Hangover 2. Yeah, and they... And the guys all got together and were like, we refused and it became a big publicity bill. That was right. Like Galifianakis, Helms, and Cooper were like, we won't let him be in this movie.

That's cool. And that was a Warner Brothers movie. And then he makes Hacksaw Ridge. Right. This film. He's not in it, but he writes and directs. Makes it through the Australian film industry, which is why it's an entirely Australian cast.

It has big tax rebates. He makes it outside the studio system. Wait, isn't Garfunkel Andrew Garfunkel? There are two non-Australian actors in that entire film. It's Andrew Garfunkel and Vince Vaughn. And everyone else is Australian. It takes place in the South. Yeah, it's a weird movie.

That's awesome. And everyone's got those wacky accents. Right. And then it somehow gets nominated for fucking picture and director. It's a hit movie and everyone's got those wacky accents right and then it somehow gets nominated for fucking picture and director it's a hit it's well received it gets nominated for the oscars right in time for me too right like right before he literally is been has been interviewed on the red carpet about like what do you think of me too and he's been though i think it's very good you know people are being exposed yeah you know like he's given like the perfunctory

answers like i've gone through all of this because I just had to. Then he was in Daddy's Home 2. It's one of the daddy daddies. Now the joke becomes, let's reclaim him but own the fact that he's a scumbag. He does his weird police brutality movie that I guess played at Toronto, right?

Yeah, but that's an indie movie. He directs an indie movie? No, that's just he's in it. Which, Monsters and Men? It's called... Dragged Across Concrete. Great title for a police patrol. That was produced by a right-wing film company.

Like at Expressly. Get the Gringo, which is like a weird fucking movie. He's just doing kind of odd stuff, and he's got a crazy wilderness man beard and his eyes are insane. There's an interview I am sort of obsessed with for when he was on the awards circuit for Hacksaw Ridge. And he keeps on rubbing his hands together and they audibly sound like sandpaper. Like every time he goes like this, it's like. My boss at the Atlantic once like interviewed him years because he was trying to make like a

Maccabees movie. With Joe Esterhaz who then quit because he said this guy's an anti-Semite and wrote a big op-ed saying the crazy anti-Semitic things that Mel Gibson said to him and said I don't think he ever intended to make this movie. I think he was trying to just correct his image as an anti-Semite. And my

boss wrote an article and basically just came away with it being like, honestly, the anti-Semitic shit, I can't even tell because my main diagnosis is that that man is mentally ill.

I mean, as I'm sure he is, though. Which doesn't offer an apology, but he is a mentally ill man He just came away with like, that guy is crazy. Well, also like, narcissism is a mental illness. I looked it up recently because i'd always

been throwing that around loosely to describe most of my friends yeah yeah it was like yeah the people we grew up with yeah like it's a progressive disease which is really fascinating it's like incurable essentially you can like treat it with therapy or whatnot or electing them as president or electing them as president. Or electing them as president. That really cures it. But it sounds like, I just think it's a lot more present than we imagine it is in Hollywood.

And that's what I, just to bring it back to what women want, that's what I think is so fascinating about the archetype of man that they are discussing. It is this scary, disgusting man that none of us that they are discussing. Is there, is this like scary, disgusting man that none of us want to believe exists? Yes.

He appears not just in Mel Gibson, but also in Alan Alda's character. And then that other actor was in lots of movies in the nineties. Like they're all douchebags essentially. There's no good man in this movie. No. And I think that, you know,

I think that that's because not to be trite or anything, but like a good man is hard to find, especially in powerful circles. And I think that there are plenty of amazing men that I know, but I think that, you know, the patriarchy peddles this notion of masculinity that is toxic. And that is, you know, non-inclusive of what women want in the world well uh great use of the title but also uh it is that sort of like absolute power corrupts absolutely thing which is like even if someone has some values those values tend to get corrupted as concessions and sacrifices to get ahead. If you're like sort of environments where everyone's like, well, we know that women can't tie their own shoes. Then you go like, I guess I got to follow that if I can get the next promotion. I'll say, hey, you know the thing about women.

No good with shoelaces. Well, it's also just interesting to hear that mini biography of the last 20 years of Mel Gibson's career because. It ends with him getting hired to remake The Wild Bunch. That's what just happened. A movie made by another conservative lunatic. Sam Peckinpah? Who was a good, visceral filmmaker. I actually don't think I like Sam Peckinpah

movies. I'm so bored. He's tricky. He made Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid? No. One of my favorite soundtracks of all time yeah um Straw Dogs is his best movie

and he openly says again don't like Straw Dogs I like Straw Dogs but I think it works because he failed to make the point he was trying to make like

the things that are valuable about Straw Dogs are like guys we can't we can't we're not gonna get yeah okay we gotta talk about

what we want but just saying I don't I don't like his filmmaking you know who else is a conservative filmmaker I don't like Clint Eastwood We're not going to get into that. Okay, okay, okay. We're not going to get into that. We got to talk about what we would want. But just saying, I don't like his filmmaking. You know who else is a conservative filmmaker I don't like? Clint Eastwood. Always looks like he's

walking on the beach and always casts himself in everything. Kind of true, you should see Sully though. Yeah, you should see Sully. Sully world. Is he in Sully?

No, he's not in Sully. It's Hank's. He directed it. Oh, Sully, not Tully. No. Not Tully. I think Clint Eastwood had directed Tully. Yeah.ully. I think Tully's worth seeing.

I think he's the head director of Tully. Yeah. Okay, anyway. That was really good. Thank you. David. Yeah. You know, the confusing time we live in, right?

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wait me too I want to talk about me too yes I just think that it's really fascinating that we have

this movement happening and it's making these huge strides and I'm really happy about that but no one gets arrested everyone gets fired with a ginormous settlement

sure everyone who does get fired with a ginormous settlement. Everyone who does get fired with a ginormous settlement should have retired five years ago anyway. Right. It's mostly people saying like, these people just shouldn't have jobs at the top of the industry. Like, that's all we ask. It's just fascinating that there's a tape of Mel Gibson

saying his ex-girlfriend he beat up deserved it. Yeah, essentially. And that he's getting hired. Oh my God, that's so terrifying. And not only that, he hasn't accounted, like he said, that's the other thing I dig through,

is like he hasn't apologized really. He's never apologized. He's never said like I had a tough time and I got through it. He always goes like, you know, the rocky years. Yeah. As he rubs his sandpaper hands. But I think that's the thing is like

four months after these things, I mean, I feel like every week you go on deadline and there's at least one story that is LA Attorney General chooses not to file charges, you know, drops charges against. Anytime there's been sort of criminal charge placed against any of these people, the LA County Office is dropping it, right?

And the other thing is, four to six months later, they go like, so what? They can never come back? Like acting like it's been 15 years and they're overdue for a second shot and the thing that none of these guys have ever shown is just like real accountability well because and any sort of accountability is not something that i think men are told that they should or like you know are raised to believe they should possess they treat it like a rote time out where it's just like i sat in the corner for half an hour

what do you want the The character in What Women Want was raised by LA Showgirls. So what do you think of that? Las Vegas Showgirls. Las Vegas. I meant that, sorry. LV Showgirls. Kind of listed from Bob Fosse and all that jazz. Sure. Who has like a very similar upbringing. Logan Lerman plays young Mel Gibson. But they

set it up as this weird thing. Oh my god, that's Logan Lerman. Yeah, which is very weird. They set it up as this thing where it's like, okay, he was like surrounded by women, so he was very attuned to them. But like, I guess, very superficial women? Is that the... No, he was surrounded by women who were like manufactured

to be looked at by men. Right. Because there's that weird scene when he is in the office with his two assistants, like, and he doesn't hear anything right and it's never addressed again and it's the idea just like they have no thoughts it's like funny and really

mean I don't know what it like and it doesn't come up again yes we should definitely write Nancy Myers about that like what do we gauge Nancy yeah is it that they are honest about their they don't have right there's no like secret right and the opposite

read is they're so dumb that they literally have nothing but then like why do we know like archetypically dumb no they're not they're just sort of like brassy older ladies who help out Mel Gibson like Delta Burke and Valerie yeah like it's two very over qualified actresses but like we literally

in this movie Delta Burke had led four sitcoms at this point. But we literally in this movie hear the thoughts of a poodle who wants to poop. Which is a great scene. I love that French poodles have to be girls. And that a scene is also generous. Sure.

I think it's a great moment in American culture. So he can hear the dog but he can't hear the two, like. Right. But I guess this is not a movie with a lot of internal consistency anyway, because, like, I don't know, he just, like, electrified himself. No, and also every, like, thought he hears in this movie is very performative. Like, it isn't how thoughts actually work or sound. He's not just hearing people being like, I'm looking at the wall right now, like, what's over there? It's always people saying, like, I wish looking at the wall right now, like what's over there? It's always people saying like,

I wish they would do this right now. Right, right. Like, The Weatherman, a film that we'll maybe talk about someday, has a sequence that's Nicolas Cage

going to pick up Chinese Takeout. And I think it's the best depiction of an interior monologue I've ever seen where you're just like, that's how your thoughts sound. Okay.

And this is like, this is how screenwriting sounds. I never know how my thoughts sound. Yeah, I know. It'd be hard to represent like, yeah, what's actually running through my brain. Like, do I think in language? Yeah, right.

Or is it just colors? It takes that liberty where it makes it literal language. But the thing in Weatherman is that like, he goes out to pick up the Chinese food takeout and his wife is like, don't forget the sweet and sour sauce.

And the scene is him walking the two blocks. And he keeps on getting distracted by other thoughts coming through his head. Just random little thought fragments. And then he has to try to get back on the sweet and sour sauce. And it's just like, oh, that kind of feels like how your brain works. And this is like very concise

lines of dialogue. Yeah. So, to give you the plot of the movie yeah he's the ad exec lives in chicago the king of men he knows what he knows what men want which is like cigars and to sit in a chair yeah i mean i don't know and smoke said cigars women can't stop fucking sure but you don't really see a lot of it you You just see his house made going like, what is it with a thong underwear? And then he has like a perfectly placed lipstick kiss on his trunk. Right, right.

That alludes to last night. Right. We don't even see the woman. We only see the underwear. Yes. Okay. He ordered a bed by 1030. And he works at an ad agency that looks like a train station,

like this sort of gorgeous. He works at an ad agency that looks like a train station, like this gorgeous. Everyone in movies that is successful works in advertising. Sure. Also everyone in movies that was successful in the 90s and early 2000. No, that too.

Romantic comedies have five jobs in total. But wait, Chicago. Yeah. Well, Chicago, I don't know. Was Chicago offering like a tax rebate or something?

Why was Chicago the hot town? It sounds serious and I think that New York and LA think that normal people who are urban live in Chicago. I think they view Chicago as a big city in the middle. It's like a compromise. He's got an ex-wife. He's got a daughter

played by Ashley Johnson. She was so charming and wonderful. She's got a daughter, played by Ashley Johnson. Wait, okay. She was so charming and wonderful. She's adorable. She's a great actress. I love Ashley Johnson. What kind of became of Ashley Johnson? She was the little girl on Growing Pains. That's right.

When she was like four or five. And then she does work regularly. I mean, I think of her, she's in a lot of video games, and she is the lead in The Last of Us, the greatest video game ever made. And her performance is wonderful in it. I always think that. I don't. That was like a different language. Yes.

I'm so sorry. It's like a game about a, it's a very sad video game. It's a very sad video game. About like survival. And there's a character that looks like Ellen Page, but is played by her in motion capture and voice. Yeah.

But how do you play? Well, this is the thing that like games have become more cinematic now that a lot of the game is like just cut scenes it's like animated scenes that you're watching yeah without any sort of interactivity but the scenes go differently because you're playing the game sort of i mean she plays a character in the game i mean this is it's all this is all brand new shit like what we're talking about like and this was one of the first games where you're like

I kind of care about these little that's so funny it's like the game that makes people cry and Ben Mendelsohn it's like it's the best piece of art

Ben Mendelsohn is in the game too no he just loves it he keeps on talking about it in interviews and he loves this fucking game but she's great and she's so good in this really good

she's such a yeah she's really good in Fast Food Nation 2 where she plays Patricia Arquette's daughter. She likes Meredith Brooks. Yeah. In this movie. Right.

Don't we all? It's like a really honest performance in a movie where a lot of people are playing real big. Oh, you know who she is? She's the last line in The Avengers. She's the waitress. Talking to the camera. Right. She's around.

She's in stuff. She's around. She works a lot. I think she's so beautiful and charming to the camera yeah right she's around she's in stuff she's around she works a lot I think she's so beautiful and charming and wonderful in that movie this is one of these movies

where just like everyone who has more than four lines of dialogue is somebody well that's Sarah Paulson Judy Greer every Nancy Meyers movie

is like that yeah where you're like wait he took this role but Sarah Paulson and Judy Greer weren't

they were not no I'm saying like even the people who weren't famous at the time became famous like Lisa Edelston like years before House no I'm saying like even the people who weren't famous at the time became famous like Lisa Edelston like years before House and shit

and then you have the people like Valerie Perrine and Delta Burke Lisa Edelston is one of the other she's the one who's like she comes up to him and then she says something she's hot with curly hair

yes and then you know he hears her being like god I hope he doesn't make me listen to another joke or whatever you know that yeah

Judy Greer yeah had she know that yeah Judy Greer yeah had she been what had Judy Greer done before this one of her very first things she's so fucking good yeah

this was really her start because people talk about adaptation and this was two years before that yeah she'd been in like a couple TV things what planet are you from

and three kings and jawbreaker I don't remember her in these movies so she'd been around yeah she's been around. Anyway, so he's a big jerk.

He writes a sad copy about boys surfing. That is a good point though that it's like the opening section of the movie makes it seem like this guy's got it made because everyone's smiling at him and then you find out all that's bullshit. Yes, and then he thinks he's getting the big promotion but Alan Alda brings him in and he's like, listen, women apparently are a thing now, so I've hired this lady.

She's your boss, right? I don't know. They make it sound like there's this new trend in the industry. Women. Female employment. But I think the thing is not to be dismissive of that because I think that that was just— No, no, I'm not saying you are. I just think that that's what's so true about it.

I agree. Now we have a hard time accepting that women weren't accepted, even though that's only something that New Yorkers have. I think that's great. Because what I like is that he just retreats from it at the end of the movie. Right. He's like, I screwed up. I don't know. I was just trying to do a trendy thing.

It's completely disingenuous that he's hiring this person. Yes, totally. And he basically says it at the start too. Aldo also styled exactly like Dominic Dunne in this movie. Interesting. No. I'm telling you, look at a picture. He's got the exact same glasses and hairstyle.

He's about three feet taller than Dominic Dunne. Other than that. I think it's the glasses is mainly what you're thinking of. The little round glasses. I'm saying with the glasses I kept on being like, I wonder if this was conscious. glasses. I'm saying with the glasses I kept on being like, I wonder if this was conscious. And so Helen hunts his new boss and

he's got to deal with that, I guess. Because he hates women, actually. And she talks about like, can you figure something out from the female perspective or what? And so he decides to embrace that by putting on women's items. She demands it. She sends everyone, she gives everyone a box.

And says like, you're not familiar with these products. Yeah, it'd be like a great door gift Familiarize yourself. Yeah. But I mean, I feel like the scene of him, you know,

putting everything on all at once, Gibson plays it like this is a man having a manic episode. So I like saw this movie on TV with friends like a year or two ago. We were flipping through channels

and I was like, oh, this movie must age poorly and we just watched this section sure and i was like oh is this movie like absolute lunacy right because it's also kind of muttering and like yelling at himself i mean you realize like oh actors like movie stars who are able to play scenes like this where characters are saying this much to themselves are successfully looking like someone having a mental breakdown. Like he looks like a guy muttering to himself on a street corner. Like wearing pantyhose and stuff

because he's talking so fucking much. He's a great dancer by the way. That scene is kind of gorgeous. That 2D backdrop of Chicago out the window too. The dance is incredible. The weird CGI ball bearings. It's amazing it lasts

that long. It goes on. Yeah. The full dance sequence before he starts doing the product tryout other than what a girl wants.

This movie has so many Sinatra needle drops it's crazy. The opening song of the movie is Sammy Davis Jr. singing Something's Gotta Give.

She's calling her shot for the future. But the opening song of Something's Gotta Give is Butterfly. Yes. Did you know that? Oh my God, how cool. Right, but this has What a Girl Wants and it has Bitch. And other than that, it's like all these old like Rat Pack crooner like swing songs from Nancy Meyers.

Wait, who plays the boyfriend of Ashley Johnson? Eric Balfour, who was then on like Six Feet Under. Yeah, Eric Balfour. Who played like so many douchebags in like for like three years he was he always had that goatee yeah terrible which i he still has as far as i know like that's his look oh and he i mean when he's making this movie he's certainly not 18 he's like 25 yeah right and she looks like 16 i know like when she introduces him i'm like am i supposed to believe there's two years between these people he just seems like a grown-up who's like in a band or something um but yeah he played so many douchebags yeah i remember him uh what else is he in come on griffin help me out texas chainsaw

massacre remake he plays uh jessica biel's shitty boyfriend who then gets murdered. Oh, right. He was the hacker in 24. Right. He's like a bad boy with a gun in like some OC, an OC episode. Oh, that's probably what I remember.

Yeah. I love the OC. Of course. But yeah, Lauren Holly, Mel Gibson's ex-wife, who they imply like she got like $40 million

in the divorce, right? Wow, he's rich. Because he says like you look like a million bucks and she's like 40 million dollars in the divorce right he's rich cause he says like you look like a million bucks and she's like more like 47 which I think the joke is like oh no I think the new husband has that money yeah that makes more sense I mean he's the Chicago ad exec

he's not like a fucking oil tanker but he also self financed Passion of the Crisis character that's true in this, that already happened. It's canon. But she's going on her honeymoon. So now Ashley Johnson is staying with Gibson, which she seemingly hasn't done for any prolonged stretch of her childhood.

She has no relationship with her father. He's a bad dad. Bad dad. Bad dad Mel Gibson. So now he's trying on all the products, acting like a crazy person, talking to himself. Zaps himself. Right.

Which like. It's quite, it's the hair dryer in the air and then it's still in the air and then it's still in the air. And they do the near miss where he almost trips. And he's like, oh, dangerous. 75% of accidents happen in the bathroom. And then he, of course, immediately then falls again. Towel falls out, shocks himself. And then they come home and he can hear her thoughts.

And he's freaking out. And they also see him dressed up in all this shit. Yeah. So he looks like a person having a crisis. Sure. And then he falls asleep. Sure. Wakes up the next morning and hears his...

You can hear women's thoughts. Housekeeper. Yeah, right. Right. Andakes up the next morning and hears his... You can hear women's thoughts. Housekeeper. Yeah, right. Right. And does this prolonged, like... There's the scene with Loretta Devine. Another super overqualified person. Playing the doorman, door woman. Yeah. Where she's like,

that ass, like five times. It's like extremely extended. And he feels objectified for the first time in his life. I know, horrifying. And the bit is that he keeps on going like, oh, you really can't keep your thoughts to yourself today, right? He keeps on thinking that they're saying these things out loud. Well, that's because psychic power is an unusual phenomenon. Right.

Most people don't have it. Right. But then as he walks through the park, he realizes it's fucking everyone. Loses his mind, goes to work. Mark Feuerstein, which this is like a big A-list male movie star power play. I guess it happens sometimes with female movie stars too. When big male movie stars want to cast their best friend as someone who's 20 years younger than them. Oh, yeah, right, right, right.

Are they best friends? Oh, oh, no. In the film. Right, have like a hot guy who's like 28 play my best friend. Be like, we're contemporaries, right? have like a hot guy who's like 28 play my best friend Seth Rogen tells the story of being 21 and getting hired to play Matt Dillon's best friend and he's like Matt Dillon's like lived a life

like he's like rough and I just like learned how to drive yeah I can like drink legally in this country and we apparently look the same now oh my god that's true I didn't think about that that's always like an ego stroke thing.

What movie is that? You mean Dupree? You mean Dupree. You mean Dupree. But even like You've Got Mail has that with like Tom Hanks and Dave Chappelle.

I mean that's one of the most amazing ones that Dave Chappelle is Tom Hanks' best friend. Oh my God I love You've Got Mail. Of course. Failure to Launch has Sarah Jessica Parker

and Zooey Deschanel and then McConaughey and Bradley Cooper. I guess they're closer eh I guess so but there's usually

like at least 10 if not 15 to 20 years between the lead and their best friend in a romantic comedy Mark Fierstein he's just like I can hear women's thoughts

and he's like I mean okay whatever I'll take that on board and not think about it ever again right like he just sort of accepts it and doesn't deal with it

right and Mel Gibson's like here's the proof here's what she's thinking about you which isn proof, but then he can't get over the notion that she thinks that he's gay. Right. Because other random coworkers. Because he has like a turtleneck.

Right. Right. So he's just kind of a cad. Yeah. So Gibson goes into the office and is like trying to steal women's thoughts for pitches. But here's what Anna Gas and I are are saying or thinking steals her thought but she denies it the advil it's so light you can take it even when you're thinking that's kind of a weird scene really that was upsetting where he's really like pressuring her he's like come on you joan

wooderson like he calls her my full name and he's like you're telling me be honest you have never thought this to yourself which if i was her i'd start screaming right right and everyone's kind of like a little tense it's also like minor sexual abuse yeah yeah it's odd yeah i mean to like make somebody talk about to like i don't know it's sexual harassment it's he's right he's harassing her but there is something nice to the fact that the earlier scenes where he's pitching stuff and everyone's like, Nick's the man! You go, Nick! You assume that the culture was like, in these

pitch meetings, the women had to fake a laugh and a smile at the pitches that they knew Alan Ald was going to prove. Now that Helen Hunt's in charge and he throws out a sexist pitch, everyone is dead silent. The men laugh and the women are just like, they finally feel free to disapprove. Sure. But I think also the implication of this is like he's learning how to use his new power.

And this is how you don't use it. Right. Where you don't just like shout someone's inner secret and they're like, oh, you're right. Like I admit it. Yes. My inner secret. You're right. So he realizes, no, what you do is like you

just like bounce women's thoughts back at them sort of calm right i mean like that's sort of that weird moment too right before he's trying on all the stuff where he's like okay brainstorm brainstorm uh lipstick on the collar no women will hate that this and that and he's like okay imagine you're a woman think about it tall legs supple body he like falls in love with the woman right and then he goes body wait am i a lesbian which is the weirdest fucking yeah joke weird weird joke right and then he can read women's thoughts and he has superpowers goes to psychiatrists isn't it amazing that it makes him a really good lover i like him an incredible lover yeah so he asks marissa tomei out. Right.

And yeah. Right. Because she's been. At first she's like not that into it. She's like, let's get this over with. He does that really manipulative thing where he gets her riled up about the fact that he won't stop asking her out. And it's like, look, don't worry about it. Okay.

I won't. Just relax. We'll talk about it later. How about tonight at five o'clock? And the guy's like, that was incredible. Oh yeah. The guy who is also in something's got to get back and is like the griffin newman yes yeah but um right now he like knows exactly what to say to marissa tomei goes on the date with her right

at first is terrible then goes in the bathroom has a pep talk with his penis and then goes back in and you hard cut to her rolling over and being like, no one has ever been that inside of me before. Which you're like, fucking gross. Yeah, it's totally gross. She clarifies like, in my head, I mean. Right, because he was lying about his grande penis, I guess. Yeah. I don't know.

Right, which sent him into an existential tailspin. Right. Sure. But then Marisa Tomei is like dropped for a full 50 minutes. Yeah, I mean, he honestly I think is just too busy being a psychic. Then Marisa Tomei is like dropped for a full 50 minutes. Yeah. I mean, he honestly, I think it's just too busy being a psychic. Like I guess he's just sort of caught up in all of that. And his daughter.

Right. I guess there's some drama with her. Yeah. And then he takes her shopping and Helen Hunt's like, look at this guy being nice to his daughter. What a fucking hero this guy is. Like she's thinking this. On her shoes too. What's up with Helen Hunt?

We need to talk about her. We need to talk. So we're done with Gibson. Bye Gibson. Let's just concentrate on her. You're done. No one cares. So Helen Hunt who rules

and is coming off an Oscar win for as good as it gets and years on Mad About You. Right? That's the thing we've talked about. She's famous. What was the premise of Mad About You in one sentence?

Marriage is hard. What if you were married? Yeah. And manhattan oh yeah right uh no it was like the thing they always talk about like the moment where we knew paul reiser's genius and how good helen hunt was on the shows there's a scene where he's like sitting in the living room like writing or something and she walks out with an empty toilet paper tube and she's like gestures to it and goes like ah and then runs out and they were like it's about like those like fights you don't even have to verbalize in marriage like who forgot to buy more toilet paper like that's the fucking show so my mom and i used to watch it all the time really yeah but um that was like the one sitcom she liked but she won the Oscar for as good as it gets

do you think that there was some issue at SAG with Helen Hunt and Holly Hunter having the same name yeah they fought for who got the ER

they had an arm wrestling match Helen Hunter yeah Helen Hunter but the thing 2000 was this crazy year because she's on Mad About You

after she wins the Oscars still on that show can't really make movies and then this is the year after the show has ended and she makes like four movies she's in Dr. T and the Women

the Altman movie she's in Cast Away she's in Pay It Forward right but was this a time when it was easy I don't know that much

about it to transition from TV to film because I feel like there was such a massive like, I don't know, being on TV was like pejorative. I would argue it's still tough. And the fact that she won an Oscar while being on a sitcom was kind of like very unprecedented and insane. And so that meant like, OK, whenever this show ends, she's at least going to get a real shot at movie stardom and this was her year where it's like

okay she's in a couple big movies she's working with really big directors she does Curse of the Jade Scorpion the following year which is a nightmare movie but she has like those five movies

in a row where it was just like oh my god Helen Hunt's unavoidable and then she kind of like disappears and not only that she does disappear

and not only does she have all these movies this is a huge hit Cast Away's Humongous Cast Away's a huge hit it's not like she was in and not only does she have all these movies, this is a huge hit. Yeah. Castaway's Humana. Castaway's a huge hit. It's not like she was in Bombs. No, two of the five

biggest movies of that year. And yet, like for whatever reason, like it's the last we kind of hear of Helen Hunt as like a lead actor. Right. So why?

I don't know. She's directed a couple movies. She likes to surf. She likes surfing. She's very into surfing. She got another Oscar nomination for the Sessions which everyone forgets.

She's good at that. Because Everyone Forgets that movie exists. Yeah. But she's like made a couple films herself. She does more stuff. She had a kid

when she was like 40 like you know a few years after this. I'm just like there's not much in her sort of like her biography that's sort of like

She does interviews she talks a lot about how much she hates the industry and I think like her year like really playing in this she was just like it's a horrible sex the industry and I think like her year like really playing in this she was just like it's a horrible sexist place

and I didn't want to deal with it and she like was just like I'm just going to do what I fucking want to do she clearly loves surfing because she's done like three surfing movies

so it's like if you offer her any part where she gets on a board she'll do it she also probably has so much money because I was reading

last night that she used to make a million dollars an episode for Mad About You yes right I mean and that thing and then syndication and all that like yeah she must have plenty of money so much money because I was reading last night that she used to make a million dollars an episode for Mad About You. Right. I mean,

and that thing, and then syndication and all that. Like, yeah, she must have plenty of money. She doesn't have to worry about that. Yeah. But I guess as an actor, it's so interesting

because I think about people like Barbra Streisand, who I adore as well, and I'm like, don't you just love it so much, though, that you wouldn't ever want to stop doing it? Sure. Like,

and then when I see these people that disappear because the industry is so awful, I'm like, well, I guess. She may have just literally just hated the role she was being offered. But you never have that moment. Like, we're both similarly crazy people about the work and how much we like these art forms. If I had $40 million, though, and I could just finance whatever movie I actually wanted to make. That's my thought is if I had that much success I would just make my own shit.

Yeah. But there are moments where I get so fed up with this that or the other that I'm like God I wish I could find something else I like doing. Oh totally.

And even if it wasn't a job but that's the thing if you're like Helen Hunt and you have like $40 million right? I'm saying once you have that amount of money and then you're like

I don't know I love surfing. Right. If you found that much joy from surfing true and maybe you're just done maybe you're just done right but we're crazy people who do like four different things and they're like listen to my album go see me do stand-up I can't stop yeah and then you get then you realize that all of those industries are just as bad right that's the other thing we found that we talk about when we have depressing hangout. But what about her character? Like, I mean, I feel like you said all the sort of good stuff about

this character. Darcy is her name. Darcy. She's cool. But she is a little backgrounded in this movie, which kind of irritates me. She's totally backgrounded in this movie, but I think what she brings to the foreground is something that a lot of women don't get to hear a lot, which is that like, you know, it's okay to say, I want to be loved for how successful i am right i don't want that to be

part of why i'm left all the time i also just genuinely and i do think this is just a nancy myers flourish like i love the empty apartment scene because i like the like being like you know what this is exciting you know like like rather than just think of it as sort of lame or superficial. Now let me just say, two impartments that are kind of key to this movie, but a film weirdly lacking in kitchens. Now we've established that on this miniseries, we're going to cut once an episode to a remote segment from our special kitchen correspondent, Romley Newman.

So now we're going to cut over live to Romley's Kitchen Corner. Welcome to Romley's Kitchen Corner. And here is your host, Miss Romley Newman Kitchen Corner. Welcome to Romley's Kitchen Corner and here is your host, Miss Romley Newman, in her kitchen. Hello, I'm here talking about Mel Gibson's lack of a kitchen in What Women Want.

I would argue that this, I think we've probably seen the kitchen in this movie, but didn't know it was a kitchen because this is the kind of stupid house where everything's hidden and very sleek and very modern.

And, like, you know, my gal Nancy didn't put, like, a huge Viking range in Mel Gibson's kitchen, which is fair. But the entire house has this very male vibe. And what I think is the kitchen looks the same. So cute. Thank you, Romilly.

Yep. Thank you, Romilly. But this is the least kitchen-y Friars movie. Right. And you kind of want to see Helen Hunt's kitchen and the lack of appliances

and have her tell you what it's going to be. Right. But her kitchen is not yet built and Mel Gibson's kitchen is unused, I guess. Yeah. I mean, his cupboard is bare.

He only needs a bagel. Yeah. He likes an onion bagel. Yeah. He's so is a bagel yeah he likes an onion bagel yeah he's so gross he must oh you know i love it he must just like stink because he's just cigars and onion bagels and i love yeah the bottle of red wine honestly when i was watching him drink a bottle of red wine smoke cigarettes and like flip through the tv channel so i was like i want to do that right now yeah it looks fun i you know, write some ads about how it's great to,

you know. You can live that life. But Helen Hunt, I mean, after being introduced kind of isn't in the rest of the first hour of the movie,

which is more conventionally like Bruce Almighty-ish where it's just like, how does this guy use his powers? Right. And then the second half

is their relationship, I guess. Then it really becomes about the two of them. Where they become this like partner, but she seeds like ground to him,

like sort of pass it. Like, you know, and I, Oh my God, that was the other thing that was so incredible. Her attitude about his success is it's, I think it's kind of unaddressed because it's just kind of like normal,

but it was just incredible to see like her humbleness and her kindness about his genius. Yeah. Like that, that is so quintessentially presentation She lets him do the presentation. Yeah. Like when she gets fired, she's like,

I think I kind of deserve to get fired. Right, which is crazy. I mean, it's internalized misogyny like 101. for a week.

Yeah. But especially because the reputation that precedes her, a reputation spread by shitty men in this movie is that she's like, what, female Darth Vader,

Vader she-bitch or whatever they call her. Yeah, I hear she's a real bitch on wheels or whatever. I think a shitty man-eater which doesn't mean

that she like will I've always thought of that term as being like oh you like tear through men sexually.

Yeah. But this is that she's a man-eater. That she's a cannibal is what they mean in this film. Yeah they mean that she'll roast him

on a spit. Very subtextual. Yeah. And that would be an interesting second hour of the movie if it's just like he's like in a cauldron and she's like you know adding stock. She's a witch. roast him on a spit very subtextual yeah I mean that would be an interesting second hour of the movie her just roasting

he's like in a cauldron and she's like you know adding stock right she's a witch a shittier version of this movie though would make her

an ice queen until well that's the Nancy Meyers touch the scene where they have and the Helen Hunt because they're bonding in the bar

Helen Hunt is oh she is a person yeah right right Helen Hunt's a really humanist actor I love Ben already like screamed about on her as good as it gets episode but yes like she is a person. Right, right, right. Helen Hunt's a really humanist actor. I've already screamed about her as good as it gets episode,

but yes, she can make anyone seem like just a real person. It's an incredibly difficult thing to do. Mel Gibson does not feel like that real a person in this movie.

He feels like a movie star who is barging around. A person who's Even the way that Helen Hunt looks, Helen Hunt is super beautiful, but it's like a very- She's so hot.

She's so hot. But she looks like a real person. Which sounds like a backhanded thing, but there's something about the way that Helen Hunt looks like Helen Hunt is super beautiful but it's like a very she's so hot but she looks like a real person which sounds like a backhanded thing but there's something about the fact even the way she's styled in movies

isn't glamorous and she presents herself Nancy Meyers characters look like real people like and again and they can be glamorous they can be dressed amazingly

like and all that but like none of them ever look like sort of ludicrous she looks like your friend's hot mom. I have a crush on Helen Hunt in almost any Helen Hunt movie.

Yeah, no, she's really lovely. I don't know if it's tied to the deepness of her voice and how fast she talks, but there's something about how she performs vocally in a house where no nonsense she is that makes her feel very like... She has a lot of fucking integrity in whatever she is in

you know and you buy that whatever her character is supposed to be doing in their field um but i like that this movie presents her as a reasonable person the entire time who all the men are terrified of for no reason yeah and that scene isn't her changing it's him just sort of like cutting through it all the thing that's kind of weird about this movie is it's a romantic comedy, but the first half is sort of just high-concept comedy, and then once it goes to the romance, their romance isn't very

funny. Their romance is not that interesting. It gets pretty straight. I don't think they have a ton of chemistry. They don't have much chemistry. She's really good on her own. He is able to dampen his insanity more than I remembered he did at this last second he becomes pretty successfully subdued and human i guess so as as much as he can pull that off but it's a lot of him just like literally saying a thing he just heard her thing like over and over

again which is the weird aspect to this movie is that like people are like you should listen to women i guess like yeah yeah but yeah well. Again, it feels like the progress he makes is so incremental. Which, like, I kept on at this point. Lil' Liz Reid, I feel like, is just like, hey, man. That's all we're looking for. And also, maybe this is a little more about her. That's all we can hope for. Right.

The other thing, though, is, like, I kept on at this point comparing the movie to Groundhog Day, right? Which is a movie where a guy is similarly presented as being just unbearable at the beginning and by the end you buy that he's sort of gained humanity. And the two things that Groundhog Day does are, one, they make it that he's there for years.

That it's like he's stuck in a fucking hell where he really has the time to change. But that movie's about Buddhism. That movie's about rebuilding your soul. The other thing with that movie is he tries all the shitty Mel Gibson like I'm gonna use this to my advantage and gets

punished for all of that pretty early on whereas Mel Gibson is rewarded for just parroting back what women think up until the very end in which he punishes himself. Let's talk about the end of the movie. First like first he rescues judy greer because she's sad oh my god wait we need to talk about his spirit damon in chinatown oh sure right because that happens during that scene right where she as another woman character whose thoughts he cannot hear out here yeah uh and i guess judy

greer lives in chinatown so he's like in the best apartment ever I know incredible apartment and she's what a messenger and she's this sort of sardonic like funny

quote unquote funny suicidal girl in the office I guess she's right she has she has a great voice he's realizing I guess

like a very acidic wit dark sense of humor but she's funny yeah and then I guess finally realizes like oh maybe she wasn't kidding around

about being so depressed but I kept overhearing her. I'll kill myself and I'll leave all the files there for them to deal with and he one day sees that all the files are there. Yeah.

So he rushes to help her. He meets a silent guardian angel type. I don't know. And he already at this point bathes him in sparks. He tries to replicate the experiment

and re-electrocute himself. He does. That doesn't work though. For a while he can't hear women's thoughts but but for no clear reason, it just comes back suddenly. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. I like him calling 411 to test it out, and it's like, of course it's a robot. Right.

But he can hear thoughts over the phone, though. Yes. Right. Because the Helen Hunt scene is kind of funny that he doesn't know what she's said out loud or not. Yeah. But yeah, he goes to Chinatown. This woman guides him, can't read her thoughts. And then he's electrocuted by the hanging

lights because it's a rainstorm. Goes in to save Judy Greer, gives her the job she always wanted. Right, that's mostly how he addresses the situation by being like, I'm sorry. Instead of like, hey, do you want to talk about your manic depression? Right, where he goes like...

Right, I'm so glad you didn't kill yourself. And she's like, what are you talking about? And he goes like Let's work through some of this stuff. Right. I'm so glad you didn't kill yourself. And she's like what are you talking about? And he's like I got this really stressful job for you.

I sensed it. And then she goes like you sensed it for me? Which I like that she plays it like that's even worse if I'm putting out the vibe to everyone. Yeah she's like mortified

at the very idea. And she's so good in this scene. She's great. I love Judy Greer. But this is like kind of the first scene in the movie where he does a totally thankless nice thing. Sure. Every other scene it's like he gets some gain off of like giving women what they want.

Sure. You know? I mean right after the scene he runs to Helen Hunt and says like I stole all your ideas. And she fires him. And she fires him. It's so. And then she says is that it

or whatever she says I love that part yeah and he's all mopey right and then they kiss like what kind of woman would I be

if what kind of shining knight would I be right great line if I didn't take the chance to rescue my mom

and they kiss and like roll credits like it's like that like she's like we're out honestly it's a two hour and seven minute film it's a long it's like that like she's like we're out honestly it's a two hour and seven minute long film it's a long movie

like yeah so the only other scene we kind of touched on it but the Lola scene is weird because in a lot of movies it would be like oh this is the first time

you get to see him successfully seduce a woman and his increased abilities as a lover and then you'd never see her again which would be kind of callous in and of itself

is that that she's creepily waiting outside his house at dawn having like a breakdown crying to herself she's been there waiting outside his house at dawn? Having like a breakdown, crying to herself. And then in her head, an even more intense monologue. Right. And she's like, either I'm unlovable or you're gay. Right.

Please, please tell me that you're gay. Please tell me you're gay. Like she's like saying it over and over in her head. Which is A, gross that it's like she's demanding that he's gay and that that's the only explanation for a man being sensitive, as you said. And B, it's also gross that he like lies to her. So I was like, when that scene came back on, I was like, oh, it's kind of nice this movie is making him pay for the fact that he's callous towards women. And it's like, no, he just keeps lying. Yeah.

Like it sort of sucks. Well, he's finally on. That's not the end of the hero's journey, though. Right. That's sort of in the middle where he's bottoming out I guess he does

oh and also he's nice to his daughter who gets jilted at the prom because she won't sleep with Eric Balder that seems pretty sweet where they're sitting

at the parallel dressing rooms yeah she's so good she's so good there's the really long finding a prom dress montage set

really long incredibly long and no dialogue but a lot of mugging. I was like, wait, why are they mugging? They could talk. And he holds up a dry erase board that says, like, not that one. This is a montage, but it's

not like you know that you're in a montage. You're a person. Use your words. Where'd the dry erase board come from? Yeah, what? I'll say, Lola, this is one of the few times a guest has made me like a movie more. Oh, I'm so glad to hear it. Because I've been dreading this one. I thought you were going to hate this film as well.

Yeah, you said, you texted me that it's like a fever dream. Yeah, I said. Where every woman wants to sleep with Nogginson. Well, that part is weird to watch present day because it's just hard to remember a time where that was the case I mean like movie star Mel Gibson I'm kind of into it here's the other thing though about being

an actress divorced from content is that you learn that like 99% of male actors are great at presenting or acting like they're sexy or interesting or whatever. And in real life, they aren't. So I've been kind of like all of these movies get ruined for me because I'm just like it's the way that once you start like working on films, it's, you're like, oh, shot, reverse shot. You begin to be totally taken out of the thing

that they want you to believe because you just know how it gets made. You see the tricks. I've met a lot of really wonderful male actors, but I'm just saying that there is... There is something about a famous male artist that they where they just begin to adopt the qualities of like that we that we resent the most in women like vanity and insecurity yes and so i was watching that movie being like mel gibson probably vain and insecure and controlling

and terrible yeah like that's i, and a very compelling actor. Well, I'll say, like, I do think there's something to, like, great actors, it's all about how you connect with your scene partner, right? Like, that's what we, like, value most, you know, in this field with the people we work with, but also I think when we see great acting on screen, we're the types of people who, like, go, like, oh, my God, look at how connected they are, how much they're listening.

Like great quote unquote movie stars are usually just about how they interact with themselves. Yeah, that's such a good point. Like the section of him in the apartment by himself is kind of like a key text for Mel Gibson. Where it's just like he's doing a dance routine, he's doing comedy and like the makeup and everything. Yeah.

And it's that sort of vanity, like protection of their image, knowing their angles, knowing their moves, knowing their moves, knowing what their persona is. Totally. Because he doesn't really have any chemistry with her.

But he's super fucking compelling in close-ups. Yeah. You know? Totally. Even this weird like sandpaper hand interview I'm always watching with him.

He's compelling. I watch it because I'm just like even when he's clearly a lunatic he's just so fucking watchable. Like there's something about him even when it's a train crash. We got to play the box office game. We do a game where I try to remember the box office from when the movies came out because I'm a crazy person.

So this is December 15th, 2000. Second biggest romantic comedy of all time. Do you guys remember what you were doing December 15th, 2000? I was seeing one of the movies on this list. Buying Christmas presents. This was a big year. This movie came out number one. I was 11.

Number one. This was like right before we met. Yeah, number one. It came out number one and it was number one again over the Christmas weekend? No. Cast Away won.

Oh, oh, interesting. Another Helen Hunt. So Helen Hunt was like, Jesus fucking Christ. Hunt on Hunt. These always came out a week within a... Number two, though, is a teen comedy.

Number two is a teen comedy. You can just guess the shit from that sometimes. The year is 2000. Huh. I saw it in theaters. Was it a new release? With my friend Tom. Can I guess?

New release, yes. She's All That? Perfectly good guess, but no. That was a March release, right? See, he knows this shit. Ew. I know. Creeped out by that.

Ew is right. Okay, wait. Let me think through know. Creeped out by that. Ew is right. Okay, wait. Let me think through this. So it was a teen release. Was it like a minted teen star at this point? One of them's in a TV show, and the other one was just in another teen comedy. Was it a Dawson's Creek person?

No. A sitcom. A sitcom, and they're a teenager? Yeah. Interesting. It's a teen sitcom. Drive me crazy. Nope. Good guess, though. Eric B Interesting. It's a teen sitcom. Drive me crazy. Nope.

Good guess though. Oh. Eric Balfour's in that too. That's close though? Sure. Teen sitcom. Teen sitcom. So like,

was it like on a kid? It should come about teens. No, it was on Fox, I think. I can't remember what it was on. Ben's looking like It's like kind of like

a me kind of movie. Yeah. Oh, oh, oh, oh oh I know what it is of course I got thrown off by teen movie well it's a teen movie I guess

I think they're supposed to be in their 20s in that movie it's dude where's my car it's dude where's my car oh my god I would've never yeah cause they live alone

in that movie yeah I guess you're right they don't have like they don't live with their parents I guess it's kind of I guess it's kind of I guess it's kind of vague

like what who they are you're right it kind of just wakes up with a being like dude where's my car that is what I was doing that weekend

I just remember my mom not a character development right my mom did not see this movie I remember her every time she saw the poster she'd be like that's a good poster

and then she would like do Ashton Kutcher going like I want to see that poster can you pull it up yeah and it was one of those movies where everyone made fun of the title

but it was also the most effective title in the world because like the concept was right there they tried to make a sequel here is the poster where's my car

my favorite part of that movie is no end in oh yeah I did that with a friend this weekend Zoltar there's the whole alien cult yeah there's a lot of

crazy shit in that movie. That movie's weird. And then he goes on to make Harold and Kumar, which is the better version of this movie. Because this movie was shot as a stoner film and they wanted to make a PG-13, so all references to weed are cut out of the movie, which is very odd.

Right. They just seem like idiots. I was going to say, they tried to make a sequel and they never came up with a good enough concept to meet the high bar of the first film. I understand. Number three at the box office.

The reason I'm going to say this is because I think this is funny. Do you know what the title was supposed to be of the sequel? No. Seriously, Dude, Where's My Car? Number three at the box office. It's the biggest movie of the year.

It's Seriously, Dude, Where's My Car? Seriously, Dude, Where's My Car. Did it come out? No, but I thought that was fun. What's the thing they have tattooed on their backs? Dude. Dude and cool? Sick, sick.

No, or sweet. Sweet. Dude and sweet. Dude, what's yours're sweet. Sweet. Dude and sweet. Dude, what's yours? Sweet. I'm re-watching that tonight. Maybe it's a masterpiece. It's like a 10-minute sequence in my memory.

All right, number three, the biggest movie of this year. Dr. Seuss' How the Grinch Stole Christmas. Oh, I saw that. I saw all these movies in theaters. This was a big holiday season. Number four is the better sort of family movie of this moment like coming out this week of 2000 it was the better family movie of the moment was it emperor's new groove yes which rolls oh i loved that movie so good such a good movie number five is an action movie i think we've

talked about it before is it a jet lee movie no it's like a it's like a i think the action stars if i tell you the subgenre you'll just know uh but it is like a star driven movie like that no no it's not no not at all uh it's like a thriller i guess father son i think it's a father pretty sure they're father and son and there's some people. So it's like two big movie stars playing a part. No, no. Stop with the big movie stars. They're medium movie stars. Interesting.

Medium movie stars. Like the poster is like the thing they're on. Fucking hell. It's a mountain movie. Oh, it's not Vertical Limit. It's Vertical Limit. I knew if I said mountain movie. Who was in Vertical Limit?

Chris O'Donnell and Dennis Quaid. So you know that's still how I know what the difference between vertical and horizontal is same with fucking me and the last time that came up on this podcast i said the same thing that's the only way i know the difference between the two i just go which one was chris o'donnell bill paxton bill paxton not not not dennis quaid's the dad in the other ice movie oh my god i remember that i will just say i know you have to go say, I know you have to go, David. I know you have to go,

Lola, but I was looking at 2000 at the box office because I wanted to see where this movie ranked amongst the top of the year. Yeah. And 2000 feels like

the last, like, real pure movie star year. What website are you on? Box office mojo. Oh, okay. My favorite website. Right,

which I check as if it's like Politico. But you go like, number one, Grinch, Jim Carrey. Number two, Hank's Cast Away. Tom Cruise, Mission Impossible. Gladiator, Russell Crowe. What We Want, Gibson. Like, Perfect Storm, Clooney, but that's sort of him rising.

Meet the Parents, De Niro. Like, it's like every movie is like, the poster was the person's face. No, you're right. You're absolutely right. It was sold on these movie stars Aaron Brockovich What Lies Beneath and the outliers are like Crouching Tiger which was an anomaly

that we talked about and then X-Men and Scary Movie which then would change the industry. I love Scary Movie 2. That's weirdly the one that has aged the best. What happens in 2? Is that the one that begins with the exorcist? It begins with the exorcist like aged the best. I feel like two. Is that the one that begins with like the exorcist?

The one like the house? Yeah, it begins with the exorcist and then it's what lies beneath. It's weirdly what lies beneath. So funny. Which is the one where they push the piano down the stairs? Is that one or two? I think that's two. I think that's two.

Tobias Funke is in Scary Movie 2. And Chris Elliott, who's really good in that too. Right, right. I've not seen any of those movies since theater. Like I don't really I had it on DVD and I would watch it

on my portable DVD player like once a week. That and A Knight's Tale. That's a throwback. And Pootie Tang. I mean the holy trinity of early 2000 cinema.

Yeah. Scary Movie 2 is definitely the champagne of scary movies. And on that note Lola thank you so much for being here. Oh my god

this was so fun. Was it? Thank you guys. See this was fun. Yeah actually this was really fun was it thank you guys see this was fun this was really fun I almost cancelled and I'm glad I didn't I knew you'd have fun

if you actually did it and I knew you would be dreading doing it right honestly I loved watching that I love listening to you talk about movies

hell yeah yeah now I love listening to you you talk about movies we wouldn't be friends if you didn't like hearing me talk about movies because that's 90%

of the conversation I think one of the last times we hung out you went on a six hour uh rant about why will smith was the best well that sounds like something griffin i don't think this was the last time okay that was one of the last times i wanted to hang out with you i mean this is this is why i do a podcast with him is we want to hang out and this is really the only way we should just do these conversations and no one paid us for them wow you get paid yeah

great ad sponsors bye guys you'll get a big cut thank you guys for having me thanks for being here your album available now it's available

it's out Heart Head West get it it's great Heart Head West and Gemini movie you're in from this year that's very good and it's on Hulu

that's such a good movie I'll plug that it's a great movie it's on Hulu people can watch Oh, that's such a good movie. I'll plug that. It's a great movie. It's on Hulu. People can watch it for free. And I don't know what the residual structure is. I hope it's positive for me. Very, very happy.

Bye, guys. Bye. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thanks to Andrew Gouda for our social media, Joe Bowen and Pat Rounds for artwork, Lane Montgomery for our theme song. Go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit. TeePublic for merchandise.

And as always, chicken round fox. All right, what do women want, guys? We're going to get to the bottom of it. Are we? I mean, I feel like this movie actually kind of did nail it. I will say I had amazing sex after watching this movie. Wow. Isn't that weird?

Did you watch the movie with the person? No. Yeah. Yeah. They were watching the movie. They were watching it. The only other movie that has inspired great sex is I Am Love. Oh, that makes sense.

That's a sex movie. It's like an aphrodisiac. Yeah. Also, Call Me By Your Name. That's a sex movie. It's like an aphrodisiac. Yeah. Yeah. Also, Call Me By Your Name. That's the same director. Yeah, I know. And then Nancy Meyer.

I never knew. Luca Guadagnino's Nancy Meyer's. One's drawing from the other. Because this movie is Mel Gibson fucking a peach, right? That is the opening. That's the opening scene. But they cut it. It's a peach, right? That is the opening. But they cut it. It's in the director's. That was the sequel they never made was What Fruit Want. Right.

He can hear all fruit and they're just like, just come in me. That's what I want. And then feed me to Armie Hammer. Fill me with your juice. Okay. I'm just, I'm gonna do this. Whatever. Are you reading the trivia on IMDb right now? We'll get to it. He's gonna do this whatever are you reading the trivia on IMDb right now we'll get to it

but yeah he's gonna do a quote from the film oh okay there's a format he's gonna put the word podcast in place of one of the words

from this quote and because this is a movie that neither of us like probably remember like already we won't know what word he's even gonna put oh no I just rewatched it

but like I watched it as you guys know I'm gonna say the grossest opening quote okay we're ready okay sure