Blank Check with Griffin & David - Zodiac with Leslye Headland

Episode Date: October 15, 2023

This is the Zodiac speaking. I have recorded this podcast episode with Griffin, David, and the genius Leslye Headland because I am tired of the tangents on every other episode so far this Fincher series. With this episode, we’re getting into the CRAFT, the OBSESSION, the MADNESS, the MINUTIAE of David Fincher’s Gordian knot of a true crime mystery. What is the scariest scene in ZODIAC? Which of the three main actors gives the best performance? Are Aqua Velvas good? Like my identity, there is no definitive answer to these questions. The untangling is the juice, baby! This episode is sponsored by: Hatch (hatch.co/check) Indeed (indeed.com/check) Stamps.com (CODE: CHECK) Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com or at teepublic.com/stores/blank-check

I am not the podcast and if I, I certainly wouldn't tell you. Oh, Griffin. Gary. Now, you don't have a Zodiac build. So you're clear. I don't. I'm a bit of an anti-Zodiac. Yeah, exactly. You're not kind of lumbering.

You're not a lumberer. It's one relief I feel watching this movie. That you could never be accused of Zodiac crime. They would never call me in for questioning. Born after they committed. Correct. Were committed. Yes.

And don't really lumber. Yeah. Born after they're committed doesn't seem to exonerate you as much as it did in the past. That's true. I feel like nowadays all sorts of people get accused of being the Zodiac killer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's spooky when he says that. The build. Those knives. Scared of guns and knives. Those knives, Griffin, that i have in my chair back there they're covered in blood they're for killing a chicken so we should mention we're not recording this in our office today we're recording in david's trailer it's full of squirrels filled with squirrels yeah well there's a knife but i have two kinds of squirrels i got my freezer

squirrels i've got my living squirrels right your friend squirrels and your food squirrels is this is the implication that eventually the the trailer squirrels are Your friend squirrels and your food squirrels. Is the implication that eventually the trailer squirrels are going to go in the freezer? I think he's growing squirrels as like as a source of food. Yeah.

It's like that. Right. So like after a while some of them end up in the freezer. Oh yeah. You know I used to have rats in my freezer, right? What?

For what? My roommate had a pet snake. A learned. Learned foot. And my roommate's name was learned foot. Yeah, I learned it. Hope you're doing well. I think he just got a new job.

And he fed the snake rats. And you had to freeze them and then thaw them out and then give them to the snake. So your roommate named learned had a pet snake. And does he have a lumbering build? And is he the Zodiac Killer? No, he was tall, but not stocky.

Okay. But I would just have these moments where I would open the freezer. Be like, wait, what? You know, like once a month, I would be like, I need my, what is this again? Rat.

Rat. It's the rat. Frozen rat. We mentioned- No, they have that with the squirrels. Learned, your former roommate, came up on a recent episode and I got a text from a friend

that I thought was completely inscrutable. I could not make sense of what was being written to me. And then I realized it was because I read it as learned foot. Sure. Like I thought someone was starting a sentence with I learned that foot. And I was like, whose foot? But his name is Learned. Yeah. Yes. I thought someone was starting a sentence with, I learned that foot, and I was like,

whose foot? His name is Learned. Yes. I sent this text? No, Orlando Allier. Who was one degree away from Learned Foot and had made some connection after you mentioned him on the show. This is the great way to end a start. It was so good to be here. Thank you so much

for having me. The way to open and close our episode on one of the best movies we've ever covered. Yeah, definitely. It's immediately in that tier of conversation. I think so. Yeah. I think it's, yeah, I think so. I'm legitimately honored to be here.

Because it is a masterpiece. It was a lightning bolt from the blue. Yeah. We were, there was some struggle in guest booking on this episode. We had a thing set. bolt from the blue. Yeah. We were, there was, there was some struggle in guest booking on this episode. We had a thing set. We arranged the schedule. Yeah,

we had one notion that got thrown into chaos. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had to slot something in quickly. Yeah. And I was sort of

asking around friends of the show and no one could come up with anything. Yeah. And then Alex Ross-Perry, our mutual friend, was like,

well, obviously. Yeah, Leslie Hedlund. Right. We were like, well, why would she ever want to waste her time traveling to downtown Brooklyn? The fucking prequel episode. No, I mean, it is. Zodiac is. I have a top four.

Okay. Sure. Four faves. Four faves. And I don't like to rank them okay because they're all so different but it's

you have a it's a Mount Rushmore yeah it's a Mount Rushmore it's Zodiac The Shining Back to the Future The Apartment you know like that's just

that's it okay yeah so we've covered this is now the third of your Mount Rushmore we've covered yes yeah that's right

we rudely didn't book you on the first too so rude but Alex took one of them yes yeah so that's on him yeah that's his fault yeah and then I think Timothy Simmons Rudely didn't book you on the first two. So rude. But Alex took one of them. Yes. Yeah. So that's on him. Yeah.

That's his fault. Yeah. And then I think Timothy Simmons did The Shining. He did. Yes. Yes. Yes. You do Wilder.

Or I'm sorry. No, right. You said Shining Back to the Future. Okay. So Alex didn't take one. Yeah. Alex did. Clockwork.

Yes. Yes. I mean, Wilder's. I don't know. You would double up some of them, but you could do him. Wilder's... I don't know. You would double up some of them. You could do him. Wilder. Yeah. Like 20 movies.

Buddy Buddy, one of the most famously great endings to a career. The movie that makes Tarantino want to retire. I just love that every interview, they're like, why are you going to retire? He's like, don't want to make Buddy Buddy. Really? He says that? I've never seen Buddy Buddy.

I haven't heard that either. The last Wilder I've seen is Private haven't heard that either the last Wilder I've seen is Private Life of Sherlock Holmes which is not bad no and which Tarantino did a video

archives episode on him was like this is the one he should have ended on right but it's his theory of like everyone stays at the dance

a little too long a little too long yeah I'm telling you if you google it so many times over the years Buddy Buddy is the one

introduce our show this is Blank Check with Griffin and David a searing obsessive Yeah, I'm telling you, if you Google it so many times over the years, Buddy Buddy is the one. Introduce our show. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David, a searing, obsessive, investigative podcast. So this one week will turn into something of a true crime podcast, right? Yeah, right. So we'll finally hit the charts. Yeah. And I have my animal crackers laid out in front of me. It's a podcast. What? What? Sound crunch.

Ben brought animal crackers. Did you really? Well, I didn't even know what I was setting up. Yep. Ben and I exchanged a knowing glance. Okay. And out they came. Reclosable snack sack of Barnum's animal crackers.

Oh, I couldn't get the damn box. No, of course. Why couldn't you? Why couldn't you? I don't know. It was the best I could find. Yeah. And the reclosable snack sack is so much better for audio.

Yeah, of course, of course. That won't make any noise at all. Yes. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks

to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes their checks clear. Those. I fucked up. Yeah, you messed up. Keep going, keep going. It was one word off. You're fine, you're fine. Getting over a chest cold, Leslie. It's fucked up keep going one word off you're fine you're fine

getting over a chest cold Leslie it's fucked up my head this goes into the canon of movie Griffin's been waiting to talk about since they started the show and he's sick on the day

of the record yeah Sunshine Fury Road sure Spider-Man 2 sure from Zodiac

yeah Starship Troopers the episode where I vomited mid-episode. Yeah, but you didn't know you were sick at the start of that episode, right? That kind of came on you.

Yeah, but I became pretty sick. You did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. During. You just threw up during that episode, Leslie. Give us a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy

passion projects they want and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce. Baby. This is a mini-series on the films of David Fincher. It's called

The Curious Pod of Benjamin Buttcast. Right. Right. And this is, look, it's, I feel like usually we have an answer,

but across this miniseries we keep going back and forth on what is the blank check in Fincher's career. You think it's this? It's tough to define. Sure, like where he had

the most unfettered. You think it's this? In a certain way, and we'll get into it but there's something about this and Button being tied as productions yeah are they tied as productions? they're very close together in time

and Warner's and Paramount team up for both and co-sign to co-finance both I think each one taking a different stake Paramount had this in America and WB had Button in America. But it was almost like Button was the guarantor for this,

which is wild when you watch Button and you go, it's insane they gave him this much money to make this. It's absolutely insane. But they were like, if you make Safe Play Button for us, we'll let you make your weird newspaper. Your weird newspaper movie.

I saw Button in the theater and have not seen it since. You're like most Americans. Don't remember it. Time to re-button, Leslie. I saw it with the theater and have not seen it since you're like most Americans don't remember it it's like the re-button Leslie I saw it with my with my friend Fenry who I also saw

this movie with some of this movie with right and he sobbed uncontrollably at the end of it and I felt dead inside so

that's never watched it again you might feel different now that you have a kid I'll say that speaking as someone who now recently re-watched it with a kid and was much more affected by it.

I hear this. Yes. I've heard that that's the case. Today, we're talking about Zodiac. I think all three of us agree David Fincher's masterpiece, right? Not to like spoil anything, but it's just like undeniable. No, absolutely. And it's not, I'm going to just really go hard, not the social network.

Just not. So you're saying you don't even like the social network? I like it. It's fine. It is not even in the same conversation as far as I agree with that. Yeah. I think it came at a particular time that everybody got on board with. Sure.

And so they got on board with a long talkie movie about, you know, the social network. Whereas Zodiac, I think, suffered a little bit just in timing. I think if Zodiac came post us discovering, you know, the identity of the Golden State

Killer. Like, you know, Zodiac comes out then, boom, everybody agrees it's the masterpiece. This movie was ahead of the culture, for better or worse. In a way that... It's a tone center for, yes. Social network was as a way that it's a tone center for you. Social Network was as well, but it was more tapped into the movie moment. Yes, I agree.

Yes, it's good. I'm not saying it's not. I can say it's not. I just think some people list it as his masterpiece, and I couldn't agree less. I love Social Network, and I think it is a masterpiece, but I think Zodiac is the elite tier of American film history. You know what I think it is a masterpiece, but I think Zodiac is the elite tier of American film history. You know what I think it might be? I think it might be that when I think of a filmmaker's masterpiece, there has to be that little bit of personal.

Yes. There has to be that tiny little drop of baby David Fincher in it. Yes. And that is Zodiac. You know, how he grew up, what Zodiac meant to him when he was younger. His dad was a newspaper man? We'll talk about it. And that is Zodiac. You know, how he grew up, what Zodiac meant to him when he was younger. His dad was a newspaper man? His time life?

We'll talk about it. Yes, he was a newspaper man. Absolutely. Our guest today is Leslie Hedlund. The great Leslie. We have to introduce you. We haven't introduced you properly even though you introduced

yourself very well. Director of, and I need to say this because I'm not blowing smoke up your ass, but there's a track record. There's a paper trail. I've said this on mic

many times over the course of this podcast. I know what you're about to say. In my opinion, inarguably, always my go-to answer, the best romantic comedy of the last 10 years. Thank you. When we like bemoan the death of the romantic comedy and it comes up in discussion and people go, how do you bring it back? And what was the last good one?

I'm like, it's sleeping with other people. That's the model. Yeah. That's the one. Thank you. It's the one that nails it for me. It was, I really appreciate that.

It was extremely personal movie. It was a movie that I poured my entire heart and soul into and it was a genre that I really care about. Right. Which you can tell. And I agree.

It's really gone the way of streaming, I guess, now. You know, like there really, there really isn't a

market for it. Bring it back. Yeah. Bring it back. Great movie. Thank you. I mean, it is. I don't, you know,

he already hyped it up. But you're an incredible filmmaker. Thank you so much. Incredible writer. Incredible playwright. Yeah. I saw Bachelorette, Leslie. I didn't tell you this.

Oh, the play? You saw it on stage. I saw it on stage. The second stage, Uptown. Yes, that's right. Yeah, in 2010. Yeah. Yeah.

And I was not dragged to it. That's going to sound harsh. It does sound harsh. Most people are dragged to theater though, I think. Well, so my brother works in theater and he was, I think, an intern at the second stage then or something. Oh, interesting. Okay.

And he was like, come see this one. Like, you'll like it. Like, you know, it's like, trust me, it's fun. And, you know, I'm not dragging you to some like eat your broccolis play or whatever. And it was so fucking good. Thank you so much. You're welcome.

I love that play. Also a very personal play. Like also, you know, something I felt incredibly blessed to have been featured at the second stage uptown. Like that was just such a, cause I don't know if they still do that series it's gone as far as I know

it was really it really broke me as a writer you know like that was the that was the moment that was the moment you know

like that and Terriers were like my first two things that I did well Terriers was great yeah it was like it was Fran Kranz right

yes Fran Kranz Eddie K. Thomas Eddie K. Thomas Catherine Waterston right Tracy Waterston. Right. Tracy Chimo, Celia Keenan-Bolger. Celia Keenan-Bolger, right. And my friend Carmen Hurley. Yeah. Yeah. And it was just one of those things where like,

there's the blowjob monologue like really early. Yeah, yeah. And the whole audience clearly just has this whole moment of like, okay, I guess now we know what we're in for. I would say that I always want to have some moment where you just let the audience know like if you don't like this you're not gonna like you might as well you might as well just leave right now and because it's going to be this for 90

minutes it's exactly what it felt like in the room like it was a small theater and you could just tell everyone being like oh oh oh she, oh, she's still talking about it. Okay. Oh, she's not done yet. Okay. Okay. All right. All right.

All right. That's going to be what this is like. And it's so good. Anyway. Oh, thank you. Thank you. But to tie in like deep blank check lore that our lunatic Zodiac Killer adjacent fans feed on. Uh-huh. killer adjacent fans feed on. To build out the tapestry,

you were on the same trivia team with Alex Ross Perry. Sometimes. That's correct. Sometimes. You were a guest. I was a guest sometimes on Love and Tura Pet Detective.

Right. A great name. Great name. But the Videology Trivia League, which looms large in the history of the show, is the formation or the real cementing of our friendship,

David and I, this podcast brings out of. And there are people in the history of this show who we became friends with then and there at the trivia. And then there are people like Alex, who we didn't even really connect with until years later, and Nia DaCosta. But I just find it so funny the more it's like, I think about,

Conan O'Brien talks about careers are like war movies where at the beginning you meet like the 15 guys in your squadron. And then the movie goes on three hours and you keep on running into the same guys

in the battlefield over like decades. And it feels like that bar is like our training grounds. What was it called again? Videology? Yeah. Sad that it's,

you know, R.I.P. R.I.P. Murdered by? The Zodiac killer? He's back. Yeah. So,

yeah, Zodiac. I do think, I agree, not to spoil, this is Fincher's best film. Yeah. And it's the best film of a year

that's sort of notoriously a good year for movies. You know, the 2007 There Will Be Blood and No Country for Old Men and Michael Clayton and good year for movies. You know, the 2007 There Will Be Blood and No Country for Old Men and Michael Clayton and a lot of big,

you know, well-remembered movies. Yeah. A year that is so good that it's hard to make a top 10 with an unconventional pick. Right.

You know? Like, well, I have to include X. Right. And you're like, there's like a pool of 30 agreed upon

fantastic movies from that year. And if you're taking anything outside of the 30, you're like, there's like a pool of 30 agreed upon fantastic movies from that year. And if you're taking anything outside of the 30, you're like, are you just trying to color outside the lines? Yeah. Are you just trying to be contrarian? Yeah. But in a year with like several incredibly valid kind of undeniable masterpieces, I do think over time this one has only kind of grown. Oh, absolutely. Because I feel like I remember it coming out and it there was sort of a resounding not with film nerds, but I think with

general audiences, there was a resounding sort of yawn at this movie, you know, that it was it was kind of long and, you know, there's no resolution and that's and it's which is sort of the point of the whole thing. But it didn't feel like it hit in any way. No, no. And it gets zero Oscar nominations. I mean, I feel like a meme at the time was like Norbit won Oscar nom, Zodiac zero. That's right.

Because Norbit got the makeup one and that was always the comparison point that they were making. But I was looking, like there is only one critics group that gave this movie an award. Yeah. Dublin Society film critics top of the morning to them

I'm giving them credit why do you think that's the case because it was released in March oh that's right it was released in March and then by the time it was time for awards No Country for Old Men and There Will Be Blood had come out and there was this kind of like

oh my god that was such a dogfight these big totemic movies oh yeah right which side are you on between those two which one were you

I was a No Country guy yeah same so was I these days I'm I kind of don't care I like them all I'm happy they're with us

rewatched either and full in so long and I rewatched scenes from both all the time. Yeah. But I think like, yeah, it gets lost in a shuffle of a year where it's like you have movies like that that are connecting in a slightly larger way.

And then you have things that are like full on hits that are critically well regarded, like Ratatouille, you know? Oh, right. And then you have things like. Wait, do you think that it's weird that they're kind of similar to Zodiac though? No, the, the,

there will be blood, no country. There's something in the air that year. Yeah. Weirdly, you know? And it's like, lots of laughs,

lots of laughs. Um, but even like, like these nihilistic endings where you're like, you know, there's just, there's no hope. Yeah.

And it is, it's also kind of the peak of this. Like, I mean, Zodiac is not an indie movie. No. It's a studio film. But like all the studios having their indie imprints, putting out challenging-ish movies. Yeah. Something like Juno can take off and make a zillion dollars or I don't know what else was sort of like big that years. You know, like, like if you look at the Oscars, it's like a dark year.

Like, yes. Cause like Michael Clayton is also that has a triumphant ending in a way like he, but it's dark. Like he, he beats them, I guess.

But then, you know, get in the car, you start striving. Nothing to do with himself. Um, you know, the diving ball and the butterfly,

Sweeney Todd, like Eastern promises. These are like very bleak adult, you know, films that had broken through. Jesse James. Well, I was going to say, Jesse James, I think, weirdly comes out much later. Yeah. And takes the Zodiac spot of the one the critics are fighting for. To nudge in.

Right. Sure, yeah. Do we have any idea why the studio released it in March? Yes. We do uh which essentially is they thought it would not do very well uh the other part of this was did it have a festival life it was it released it a can after it came out bombed in theaters because i was gonna say i was like wasn't it a can they put it a can two months as griffin is saying after it had bombed

to even to fincher's confusion. And lost the Palme d'Or to no country, right? Yeah, but it also, it not only did it lose it. No, no, no country. No, not no country. No, no, no. No country was at Cannes. Well, but that would be the year.

2007. Wait, well, now I have to look it up. Maybe it didn't win, but it was at Cannes. I'm looking it up. Okay. Jesus God. I'm forgetting what the Palme d'Or would have been

in 2007 Palme d'Or in 2007 went to four months three weeks and two days it's a very good film oh yes the jury president was Stephen Frears

that year yeah No Country I think did win director maybe or something that sounds right no Country

let's see nope didn't win nothing well no awards for No Country yeah no awards for no country. Yeah. No awards for no country. Cet pays c'est pas pour le vieux homme. As I always say, the French title, literally, this country is not for the old man, which

I just would see on posters and laugh. That is good. That is fantastic. It's so good. It was supposed to be Paramount's big winter, fall 2006 Oscar contender. And they were fighting him over length. And then they kind of just threw up their hands and went, we're just fucking releasing it in March. Wow.

So by March, like, it went from being a hot prospect to them to sort of a shrug and a surrender. But I do think, weirdly, 2006 was kind of a weak Oscar year. Yeah, it could have won. That's the Departed. Even Paramount kind of dumped it, but they dumped it November, December. I think it would have at least had like an insider type Oscar run

where it's like, the studio abandoned this, it bombed, but critics loved this. I love the Departed, but it's kind of weird that it won Best Picture. That's not the kind of movie that often wins Best Picture. Movies where Jack Nicholson picks up someone's hand in a bag and goes, you know, like that's not usually what they love.

It would have been the movie of 2007 or 2006. I mean, rather. Sorry. It seems like a giant fuck you. I think it was a bit of a fuck you. But I also think at the time, as much as we lionize this movie now, David Fincher movies always come out and everyone's always like,

too cold. Every single time. It happens to this day. It happened to Mank. It's happening to the killer. And then five years later, everyone's like, we all agree he changed cinema on that day.

And like, I'm just like, you didn't fucking agree about anything and i remember when zodiac came out i was how old would i have been i was like 21 but i was like at the time i was like it's pretty weird this is just kind of getting dropped with like the march garbage you know just kind of like all right and i went to see it and I was like, that thing was incredible. Was this post Zack Snyder taking over March? It's the same March.

It's the same March. It's the same March. I want to say 300 comes out. No, 300 is, wait, wait. Yes. Yes. So it's like

in the shadow of it. No, it's a week later. It's a week later. Oh. 300's on the horizon. They kick him into the pit. Yeah, they do. They just kicked him into the pit. No, but you're right. This is like a week after oh 300's on the horizon they kick him into the pit yeah they do they just kicked him

into the pit no but you're right this is like a week after this movie comes out March becomes a legitimate time to release a movie and the week before that

it was a garbage month a garbage month yes it's changed immediately we will talk about the box offices this week

yeah because that's what we do on this podcast obviously but Zodiac ran into a buzzsaw. That was the other problem that nobody saw coming. Do you know what it is? I think I know what it is. Well, we'll talk about it. I thought you were going to say we will talk about 300. And I said,

I'd rather not. I don't think we will. I'm not sure that's a good idea. I don't know. Maybe this is the moment. Bring it back. Start poking the Snyder Bear. So, yeah, let me give you a little bit of context about Zodiac Leslie but then yes I do want to ask about you

seeing the movie because we were talking about this briefly I want to say one thing before we go back this open just to Leslie's point because I think this is a thing to pin on the on the cork

board as we start putting a bunch of thread yeah around building our Zodiac map at this episode I think that's a reason why social network is so lionized. Yes.

Is it is the only movie of his where everyone was unified at the moment it came out. That's right. It is the only movie in his career where when it came out, it was a hit, audiences liked it,

and critics liked it, and it was an Oscar player. And every other time, he's been missing one of them, and then everyone comes around later. Yes, yes, yes later yes yes my argument for that would be people appreciated the coldness because they were like because it was about a cold we need to take this guy down and also that's 100 correct yes and also it was sort of like oh

the sorkin script did good in the fridge oh you know what i mean like oh that actually benefits from control he was pulling something that was a little too high. Yeah. And so that worked really well for everyone. I don't think there's another, I mean, Fight Club is sort of its own thing where obviously that went over poorly in a lot of ways. But like, I don't think people were like too cold. They were just like, I don't know what to do with this. But mostly it's like, yeah, if only like the meticulous little techno freak David Fincher

had some blood in his veins. Like it's always the initial reaction. And they're always wrong, to be clear. Oh, I think so too. Yeah, but like that's the fucking endless read on him. I mean, I think the flip of that, and we'll get to this in its own episode, but Gone Girl, I think people are like, well, this is just kind of popcorn. Yeah. People were like, this is fun, but it's not serious.

Gone Girl I've liked, but right, they were like, but we can't take this seriously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on. Come on. Do you like They were like, but we can't take this seriously. Yeah. Yeah. And come on. Do you like Gone Girl? I love Gone Girl. Gone Girl's the best. Yeah. I have the cool girl monologue framed in my office. Is it true?

Alex was trying to get this right. Do you have two separate David Fincher related tattoos? I have Marla Singer. There she is. With slide underneath her. Oh, that's so cool. I have I Am Jackla Singer. There she is. With a slide underneath her. Oh, that's so cool. I have I Am Jack's

Complete Lack of Surprise. Hey, that's pretty good. Yeah. I felt like you guys were a little harsh on Fight Club. May I say? So you've listened

to the episode? No, I did listen to the episode. It's not my movie. I'll admit. I have to admit. I apologize if it felt like I was being too dismissive of it.

Oh, no, I totally got what you guys were saying. Because with the Easy Rider-ness of it, like meaning that it's sort of like younger people now watching that film would be like us watching Easy Rider. Is that sort of what, am I remembering that correctly? Yeah, I know exactly. And I did ask my younger, for my Star Wars, I actually did ask some younger cast members

to watch Fight Club. And I think that they, I think they did have that reaction. Yeah. But to me, Fight Club is Dr. Strangelove. Like it's a satire that stands up because what it's satirizing is evergreen, which is male toxicity.

You know, like it's always going to be there. It's always going to be happening. It's like... It's a good take. You know what I mean? That's my take. Yeah, that's a good one.

I also understood that in... Because I was texting with Alex about it, fighting with him about it. And he was like, you have to understand it was my whole life.

Yes. You know, and I think that was the thing that he was sort of reacting against. This is the one thing I want to say in our defense in this episode, okay? Defense of that episode,

because this is the one Fincher episode we're not recording wildly far in advance, so we can actually respond to that. Oh, sure. Right. I don't feel the need to respond to all the criticism, because I understand the note. And I'm not placing any blame on him, but I think you need to understand

where David and I were coming from if I can speak for David. Alex says, I want to do Fight Club. That was my whole personality for like 15 years. And I think David and I both think, great, we can sit back. He's going to come in and deliver the dissertation on a movie

that was not either of our movie. And so I was just like, I maybe am a little cooler on this than a lot of people i have no aspiration to like note it or like create my thesis for why it's overrated or anything yeah but i thought he was just gonna lay it all out and i'd be like interesting case right which is what he'd done for the last couple of movies he came on for where it was like this is my whole personality and what we could not have anticipated is he re-watched it and went like i don't know if

i like this anymore right right he was like oh maybe it is kind of in the past for me right yeah well it is it is and i i don't think i've seen fight club as much as i've seen zodiac so i saw zodiac when it came out i saw uh i i had some mishaps trying to see it in the theater because i was an assistant at the time and like I slept through one of them and you know, like it was just, it was a really bad year for me. And, uh,

just personally, it was a really horrible year. So I, I, but I had to see Zodiac cause I was a massive, massive Fincher fan. And so I went to go see a matinee of it at that AMC. I think it's like an AMC on Broadway and 18th.

Oh yeah. You know that one? Yeah. Yeah. The AMC on 19th. You know that one? Yeah, yeah. The AMC on 18th. You know, and, and, you know, just sat through it. And the second like hurdy-gurdy man came on at the end, I was like, this is a, a masterpiece. I have, I have witnessed a masterpiece.

And then I walked out into like the brightest sunlight, you know what I mean? Like, I'm just like, it was so trippy. And I think that after that Zodiac, once it came out on DVD and I got the director's cut and the commentaries, which I'm sure we'll talk about, I watched it almost every day. So I saw it in New York when I was an assistant. I quit my job, which was very difficult and hard to do. I moved to Los Angeles with nothing and I slept on a couch because I had no money and I shared

this studio apartment with this other girl, this roommate, and I watched Zodiac every day and at one point she had an intervention with me

and was like, you have to stop watching Zodiac. As much as I adore Zodiac, I might worry. She was extremely worried about me. She was like, I think that you have some She was extremely worried about me. She was like,

I think that you have some mental issues you should work out. I mean, this is like when I was like heartbroken when I was 15 and I watched The Wiz every day for four straight months.

It's really, it got me. You can like this movie, but something else is going on. Something else is going on. It did get me through. And I think because it's about obsession

and it's about, it's about a certain type of addiction. Like it get me through, and I think because it's about obsession and it's about a certain type of addiction, like, it got me through a period of my life that I don't know if I would have gotten through if I didn't have Zodiac. Like, so it's not just like a cold movie that's investigative that has a nihilistic ending. Like, to me, it's so rich and beautiful and gorgeous and there's all these, like, nooks and crannies in it that you can just live in. It's like Barry Lyndon for me. Like, you know, you just, you can live inside the movie, you know, like even more so. I've seen this movie many times, not as many as you. I've seen it more times than you, somehow.

I find it to weirdly be a comfort food movie, even though I find it very upsetting and disturbing. Absolutely. My wife will say to me, like when I'm very stressed out, my wife will say, do you want to go home and watch Zodiac? You know, like,

do you want to go watch Zodiac? I'm like, yes, I do. It doesn't relax me, but it focuses me. Yes. And it sort of grounds me. Yeah. I find it kind of relaxing

and comforting and very funny. And yes, of course, it contains depictions of murder. Yes. That are chilling and realistic. realistic also just like the darkness of the human soul and like that part that's the comforting part

that actually is my whole thing with Zodiac and that's one of the only scary movies that Forky has watched with me multiple times my wife has watched Zodiac with you multiple times oh really now I understand why your marriage works and she watched it with me the other night Has our Zodiac with you multiple times? Oh, really? Now I understand why your marriage works. And she watched it with me the other night. For the first time.

Is it's like after the cabbie, you're basically done with murder. Yes, that's right. And because Fincher wisely is like, I'm not depicting anything else where it's like, who knows, maybe this was a, you know, it's like, no, no, no.

We are depicting confirmed Zodiac killings only. Yeah. And then it's like now. Where people survive. Because they don't show the first one. Right. They don't show the first one. If we can't interview a survivor, we're not going to depict it on screen.

Right. Well, the cabbie didn't survive, but the cabbie was, you know, witnessed and so on. But yes, but yes, correct. And then you're like, yeah, now we're just going to sink into obsession. And yes, there'll be scary stuff. you're like yeah now we're just gonna sink into obsession and yes there'll be scary stuff and then but like i we're gonna be in diners no explaining things looking through books there's gonna be harsh sunlight coming through like uh police stations there's gonna be you know people going to the library well that's i love that it's these different kinds of investigations it's detectives

yes newspaper and it's cold case. Puzzle boy. I call him puzzle boy. He is a puzzle boy. But yes, he is what we have now. That's what he is as well. Leslie, you saying this movie has nooks and crannies that you could live in. I had

this thought verbatim re-watching the movie for the episode. I don't think I've ever had this exact thought before. It's not like this is a mental exercise I've run through before, but I thought if I was forced to watch only one movie for the rest of my life, and I had to

watch that movie every day. Oh, okay. That sounds torturous, but yes. Right, but that's part of the exercise. Yeah. Right? I'm like, what's a movie I would still find compelling every day and not get tired of? And there are movies I enjoy watching more than this, but I think this is a movie I would never stop finding interesting. And I would never lack in discovery of new things to sort of dig into and fixate on.

I couldn't agree more. And I think that part of it is that it's not a slave to the three-act structure. It's interstitial. It's got this sort of episodic feel to it. And not unlike The Shining, it has this sort of labyrinthian feeling to it. But no matter how many times you've seen it,

you're like, wait, is this the part where he goes to see Donald Logue? Or is this the part where, right. You know, um, he gets in the fight with Toshi. Like,

like you can't quite remember what scene is coming next. I will never get to the bottom of it. And there's no scene where you're like, it's never going to get repetitive. Every scene is three to four guys in a diner or an office chatting, having the best conversation. You're like, every scene you're like, I can't go to the bathroom for this one. I an office chatting, basically. Having the best conversation you've ever heard in your life. And you're like, every scene,

you're like, I can't go to the bathroom for this one. I have to watch. Yeah. I have to. Oh, it's... It's a fucking porker.

Logus back, yeah. I absolutely adore this movie, too, because I think it does what Fincher actually does best. You know what I mean? Like, I think Fincher, up until this point, we've seen, like,

flashiness to those films. Yeah, sure. And actually what he is a genius at is blocking actors and staging camera. He's actually just brilliant at doing what the greats all can do. And when it comes down to it, you can either do that or you can't. And there are many directors that absolutely cannot do that who are lauded, I think, for their inventive sort of way

that they put together a meniscon scene, you know, like the way that they, you know, throw a bunch of jump cuts together. But all the greats, it's blocking and staging. Like, it's so clear the way that he has... I mean, all you have to do is watch, like, the investigation

of Paul Stein's murder, the handheld section. Is that the cabbie? Yeah. Yeah. With Tashi and Anthony Edwards and Mark Ruffalo. The way that's blocked

is, like, I could watch that scene, you know, 25 times right now and probably find something new that I learn something from that scene. It's like one of the I don't say this lightly. One of the greatest regrets of my life is I was invited by someone to attend Soderbergh at NYU giving a lecture on Zodiac.

Right. I'm the killer, to be clear, not the film. Yes. I think I know who it is. And I'll only tell nyu students yes um but uh he did a lecture on zodiac maybe like a year or two after it came out pretty fresh and it was just him and i don't think this was ever recorded uh but it was just him breaking down like scene by scene. You don't understand.

This is the guy working at the absolute top of the field right now. And just the basic fundamentals of visual storytelling. Of everything like meat and potatoes that movie making is. And the term I heard he used all the time was just next level visual math. Yeah. In a way that is... That is exactly it. Right? That is exactly it.

And it's so unflashy. But it's like, this is Fincher doing his most sophisticated film where on a surface level, it is the simplest, it is the spirest, you know?

Right, it's a movie where you're like, wait, why did it even cost money? I don't understand. It's mostly set in an office. And it is so expensive. It is expensive, yeah. If you are a filmmaker

and you watch Zodiac, you can appreciate how expensive the film is. Like, how much digital work has been done in order to create the period, to recreate the waterfront. Like, you know, even the Paul Stein cab moment, like you were saying, not a survivor there,

but that's why they use that bird's eye view of the cab. Because they're like, we don't know what happened inside. We don't know what happened inside. We know he got in. We know they took him to Washington and Cherry and that's all we know. So how do we shoot it?

That's the other filmmaking. I mean, just like his internal rules of like what we are showing you and when and how. Yeah. Based on like the movie communicating to you the levels of reality of fact versus memory. All the way down to like Darlene Farrin, you know, hitting the turn signal.

Like when she gets shot. Like everything down, like every single detail was, like I love that it starts out by saying that it's based on case files. Yeah. Not by like, you know, this is based on a true story. He says like this is based on the case files. Like I don't know know, this is based on a true story. He says like, this is based on the case files. Like, I don't know why, but that always tickles me too. I love that it says that though. Yeah. Rather than like inspired by a true story or, you know, yeah, yeah. Right. Right. True events. I love true. I love when events are true. I love it. Zodiac. Let me give you some context

from the dossier. Obviously it's coming five years after Panic Room although I suppose you can think of it as sort of being intended as a 2006 movie yes because it is sort of a big gap in his filmography

yeah but obviously what does he work on in between that he never made Rendezvous with Rama I think we will talk about again really wanted to make a version of that the Arthur C. Clarke novel

with Morgan Freeman. This gap is one of the periods where he spends a lot more energy on it, but he even then was sort of like, I can see the way this movie works and the technology's eight years away for me doing it. Yeah, partly a sort of digital hang-up thing. He said he wanted

to do it like John Krakauer's Into Thin Air. Don't even know what that means, but sounds awesome. Like crazy sort of like the technical details of like space exploration stuff. When you dig into those, because there's one interview

that I feel like JJ is pulling from a lot that's from like 07 or 08. That's him saying like, I can almost see us being at the place where I could make it the way I want to.

You wanted to do it like IMAX 4K. And this is in 2008. I think he wanted to do something similar to Gravity, but even more hard sci-fi, hard science, less pulpy. But it just didn't exist. He also, as I think we've mentioned, was attached to a script called Seared

that became the TV show Kitchen Confidential. Right. An adaptation of Anthony Bourdain's book. He was going to make that as a movie with Brad Pitt. That gets canceled. And then eventually, as we've mentioned,

he also gets attached to... Later, he gets attached to Chef, which then becomes Burnt, also with Bradley Cooper. So weird. But he was going to do it with Keanu, which is wild.

He was also supposedly attached to that David Benioff movie, Stay. Yes. Which Mark Foster made. Famous twist movie. Like one of the hottest McGregor and Gosling. Yeah. The people were losing their minds over. Who's the female lead in that?

Naomi Watts. Yeah. And then everyone hated it. Hated it. What's the twist in that movie? Have you seen Stay? I haven't seen it. No one's ever seen it. It's not a real film. I'm like vaguely remembering it. It was one of those things that everyone was like, just wait. This is going to be be huge and they came out everyone was like forget it we never mentioned this didn't happen it's not real right don't speak of this film but it was like

four years of the hottest directors and stars all like clamoring to make you can't believe the twist in this thing and they're like i won't tell you people have explained to me what the twist is and it i it does not register i could right right you're like and then it turned out he was from and you're like i know i don't know what you're talking yeah um the other big thing of course is he works for a while on mission impossible 3 that's the big one he's sort of the first choice for it basically and you know announces cruise has selected him to think about because he was gonna do there was the world war two movie he was gonna to do with Pitt.

Sure, we've talked about that. I can't remember which one. And when Pitt dropped out, it's somewhere there in the dossier. I forget the name of it. When Pitt dropped out, Cruz briefly thought about taking over. It was sort of one of those windows

where it's like, we'll keep your development costs going if you can get an equivalent A-lister. Fertig. Great title. So Pitt was attached for a while. drops out this summer ferdig he's trying to keep it afloat he meets with cruise cruise considers it passes but then goes you know what you passed my test i want you on mi3 considered ferdig decided to do last samurai instead but then was like here's a robert town script for mi3 yeah i want to make it really nasty and violent. We don't know. Fincher is the one

who said that we had a cool, really violent idea. He doesn't say what it is. I don't really know what he means by that. Like, it's sort of weird

to say, like, our idea was violent. I don't, like, but who knows? Here's all I will say. I would say Carnahan

is his replacement. And then when Abrams comes on board, I think Abrams is sort of working with new material he starts over from square one yes Carnahan I don't know how much in common the Carnahan version had with the Fincher version Carnahan is someone you turn to for violence

correct yes this is why I'm saying it did feel like Cruz maybe wanted to go harder and more violent the thing I know that Carnahan has said in interviews is that his script was largely about drug trafficking in human bodies dear lord like that they were like putting drugs in dead bodies

and that's one of the reasons everyone kind of panicked around it was like it was really I mean that sounds crazy just imagine the studio execs they were using corpses and now we're back to like Ethan Hunt is like you know a close up magician slash acrobat you know a close-up magician slash

acrobat you know who does fun disguises not like acrobat moving bodies yeah stuffed with drugs or whatever you know whatever this is yeah just wild that fincher even livers full of microchips fincher sort of talks about it like i thought they were all kind of jazzed on the idea i had and then over time it seemed like they maybe wanted me to take notes from them and it's wild that he even like David yeah I thought you like learned hard and fast maybe he thought

Cruz could insulate him I mean it makes sense like why Cruz wanted him but it doesn't make sense why Fincher would want to do it why he would fall for it yeah I guess there's just sort of an allure of wow like Cruz is the number one movie star in the world like this could be Fincher would want to do it. Why he would fall for it. Yeah. Why would he fall for that? I guess there's just sort of an allure of, wow,

like Cruise is the number one movie star in the world. Like this could be cool. But yeah. Every story I've ever heard about him, which are all very, very. Finchy or crazy. No about Cruise,

like which are all very like third person. Very, very far, far removed is just that he can talk anybody into anything. Right. Right. So I'm assuming he sat down and was like, hey, Finch.

And I think he talks to him, but it'll be hard. It's a lot of work. Yeah. You're going to have to work. Which is the number one thing that Fincher wants to do. That sounds good, though, for some reason. But if you think about it, yeah.

You're going to eat egg white omelette today. That's a good first impression. He was, he was, ate egg whites today. It's going to be tough work. It was, it was, it was gonna be tough work he it was it was

it was De Palma and then it was John Woo and then yeah of course he wanted another yeah that's the other thing there's this kind of

baton pass of like oh these are like huge thriller directors right I just think Fincher every other point in his career from Alien 3 on

anytime something like this has floated to him is like 99 out of 100 guys would fall for this. Yeah. And I know. Right. I went through that crucial.

I already did it. I see the trap. Yeah. And this is the one time it felt like he let himself believe a little bit. Yeah. It was that cruise magic.

It's the cruise magic. Yeah. You're right. Yeah. Some other things and I feel like we've mentioned all these before. Lord to Dogtown.

He was attached sort of at one point and then he was trying to mentor Fred Durstst into making it was durst first it was a durst developed project yeah you're right you're right and then they were like this is too big a budget dirt right is kicked off fincher steps in and then is like forget it and i know in a classic kind of fincher thing the budget thing was he was like okay so i need 15 million dollars to reconstruct the pier right right right and they were like david and he was like you have to rebuild the pier at full scale it's 1971 again like we have to do that oh my god and he was attached to the lookout which is one of those movies that eventually gets made by scott frank with joseph gordon levitt right but like

that was a script that was attached a little bit of a state script but instead it turns out pretty well and then Button of course which he's pushing up the hill for all of the 2000s and they want him to do and they think he's the guy who can finally sort of solve the movie for them so I think Zodiac

is like he's already dancing with them on Button and then he like brings a third into the dance. Which is why the dumping in March seems so weird to me. Because I'm like, because if they're so invested in him for the button of it all. Yeah, Leslie, I don't know if you know this, but studios are often irrational and act against their own interests. Dump, dump. Do they?

I don't know if you've heard the news. I don't know this. I'm so yeah he's got a great quote in this dossier where he's like you talk to studios and you like pitch them a movie and they're like 150 million dollars that's too much and then three years later they green light the same

movie and say it's a bargain right right right right because they've gone through some level whatever we don't need to and then the other thing is first he's going write a direct a script that was written by james elroy called the night watchman that falls apart and then he gets attached to the black dahlia and then he's like let's make this as a massive miniseries tv like brought you know film level miniseries he's basically pitching like what he eventually gets

to do by the way yeah because those elroy books, which I love, are all doorstops. They're huge. And he's like, give me $80 million for a TV miniseries. In the mid-2000s, that scene is ludicrous. The limited prestige series is dead. It is never coming back. It will not, in fact, destroy movies. Now you're like, hey, can I have $80 million for a TV

show? They're like, for one episode, maybe. And then that turns into a movie that de palma makes a flawed but interesting film yeah i would say um and so zodiac happens shane salerno the uh writer of shaft singleton shaft yeah why were we just talking about him well he's writing he's in the upcoming he's in the Avatar writers world. Oh, right, he wrote Alien vs. Predator. Oh, right. That's why we were talking.

But an incredibly bizarre career. Yeah. A sort of like, Wunderkind documentary, he makes a documentary in high school that gets picked up, and then he gets brought into the NYPD blue writers room as the sort of apprentice, and then is sort of off and running

in this sort of true crime bent. He buys the rights to the book that, you know, the real Robert Gage Graysmith writes.

Yeah. He loves the book when he's a teenager. Zodiac. Develops it for years, kicks it to James Vanderbilt, he of the Vanderbilts. But wasn't it with Disney?

Yes. He signs up with Touchstone. Oh, Touchstone. Sells it to Touchstone in like 99. Guys, remember Touchstone? I miss it. I miss it with Disney? Yes. He signs up with Touchstone. Oh, Touchstone. So they're going to sell it to Touchstone in like 99. Guys, remember Touchstone? I miss it.

I miss it. I miss Touchstone so badly. I want to touch the stone again. I want to touch the stone. God, bring me back, pretty woman. Bring me back. You know what's an underrated period? Roger Rabbit.

Well, yes. Yes. Speaking of Roger Rabbit's in this movie. He's in this movie. You don't want to go in his basement. What? He is. Oh, yes.

Yes. That's him. Yeah, that's him. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of Roger Rabbit, speaking of Touchstone. Speaking of Touchstone, I loved when Disney made their deal with DreamWorks and just

briefly revived Touchstone to release the DreamWorks movies. Oh, yeah, that's right. Where Lincoln is a Touchstone film and Bridge of Spies is a Touchstone film. And it was like we had, like, Touchstone had basically died and then there was like five years where that logostone film. And it was like we had, like Touchstone had basically died. And then there was like five years where that logo came back. And it was lovely.

Now it's gone again. James Vanderbilt, and I say this with all due respect to a man who's had a long and successful career in Hollywood, has never written a movie as good as Zodiac. Oh, no.

I have a couple theories on it. It's crazy. Well, yeah. I mean, the main theory, obviously, is that, you know, Fincher worked on this movie and all that. But like, it's just interesting that he i think of him as a pretty reliable blockbuster

kind of guy these days right he did spider-man he does the screen movies he does the adam sandler murder mystery movies two murder mysteries it's like yeah okay he's sort of like a pro but he's not like like this movie or like this screenplay is like a brilliant work of like a pro but he's not like like this movie you're like this screenplay is like a brilliant work of like research and order and like it's so you know and it's like just funny that he's the only credited script writer but he is this movie came out and you were like because i mean leslie you know this better than anyone but it's like oftentimes a writer's credits do not actually represent who they are in hollywood where're like, well, you make 20 great scripts that are unproduced. The thing that comes out has been

rewritten to shreds or whatever. And so he has like, his year where he hits the map is... He wrote three movies in 2003. Right. Darkness Falls, Basic, and The Rundown. And as he puts it, he says... Which is a hot year in terms of just getting three scripts. It's pretty impressive. But he says,

I'd had three movies made. One was about a killer tooth fairy that's Darkness Falls. One was this John Travolta Samuel L. Jackson movie that isn't Pulp Fiction. Good line. That's basic.

Good line. And the rundown I do love, but it's The Rock's second action movie. Right. You know, it's not exactly Shakespeare. Right.

Although now it's maybe one of his better movies. Definitely. It's a fun movie. But yes, when this movie comes out, you're like, oh, well, this is who this guy is. And now we're dealing with like a his better movies. Definitely. It's a fun movie. But yes, when this movie comes out, you're like, oh,

well, this is who this guy is. Yes. And now we're dealing with like a fucking powerhouse. Yeah. And then it is, when he starts getting hired onto like, Spider-Man,

because he's originally hired to write, Spider-Man 4 or 5, before it then turns into Amazing Spider-Man 1. Sure. He's writing a Raimi sequel, that then gets rebooted and whatever. And I was like, well, this is equivalent to them hiring Alvin Sargent,'s writing a Raimi sequel that then gets rebooted and whatever. And I was like, well, this is equivalent

to them hiring Alvin Sargent to write the Raimi films. Like, I took that news as like, this is elevated. It's absolutely, like, the script reminds me so much of L.A. Confidential.

Yeah. Like, it reminds me so much of that, like, you know, Methodical. Methodical. It restarts in the middle of it.

There's like, you know, that Wheel of Fortune scene in L.A. Confidential in the middle of it there's like you know that Wheel of Fortune scene in L.A. Confidential where all of this it's like you think it feels like it should be over

and then boom the movie starts up again and literally each scene is like just as the scenes are ending you can feel the next scene being like

get out of the way I'm here you know there's just like there's such an artistry to it that I agree it's a little incongruous with is only confidential one of your favorite movies is this one of mine i would say

it's up there for sure i i mean that was a huge movie for me i would say when i was younger i haven't watched it in a bit but i i would put it in the in in the zodiac category of like a nook and cranny movie that you can exist in and live in. And it's a whole world. And like, again, you're like, which part is coming next? Is it this part or this part? The interrogation is coming up. Great.

Oh, great. Okay, great. No, I love this. Every scene is my favorite scene. Every scene is your favorite scene. And it really does feel like it follows, Zodiac feels like it follows in the footsteps of that. A couple important script context things. The Salerno script

was much more of a thriller. Yeah, well, and it has this... The big hook. This concept of like, and then the Zodiac returns. Right. Like it's set in modern day San Francisco and he's back.

So it's sort of like an adaptation of Grace Smith's nonfiction book and a speculative sequel. What if all of a sudden we got another letter? We all know that Custer died at Little Bighorn. What this book presupposes is, what if he didn't? That's basically like Shane Salerno in 1999 being like, what's the version of this that's sellable to Disney?

And Shane Salerno seems like, again, the man wrote Alien vs. Predator. He's more in the lurid space. Yeah. Yeah, but also, like, he's writing a lot of, like,

true crime stuff at this point in time, but I think he's like, the whole thing that makes this movie so great but makes it so difficult is that it's like, there is no resolution

and we have to live with the lack of resolution. Yeah. And he's trying to make a movie where someone can win. There can be some closure, which means you need to tack on fantastical thriller.

Vanderbilt is very much in his pitch notes being like, there will be no resolution. Because he's going to Graysmith and Graysmith's like, I've been down this road. And his pitch to Graysmith is, I'm going to do the movie

that lives in the space of what this actually was. The frustration, the obsession, the longing. And Fincher, when he reads Vanderbilt's script, because Fincher is the first choice, because he made Seven. But I'm sure Fincher, that's the thing. Ever since he makes Seven,

if there's some serial killer movie, he's getting sent it and going like, well, I don't want to do that. But of course, the Zodiac Killer is much more meaningful to him. Vanderbilt says, they told me, well, we're going to offer it to Fincher. And I went, great, letiac Killer is much more meaningful to him. Vanderbilt says, they told me, well, we're going to offer it to Fincher.

And I went, great, let's get that out of the way so we can go on to the real deal. Why would he want to do this again? And Fincher, obviously, yes, he grew up in the shadow of the Zodiac, so it's like in his brain

in a way that most, but he's also like, I see this as a newspaper story, like an all the presidents meant kind of movie. And Vanderbilt's like, yeah, okay okay you get it like

not only does this guy want to do the movie which I wasn't expecting but he wants to do this movie for the reasons I didn't think he would want to right

and then Fincher says to him great so now you need to go and spend the next 18 months interviewing every single person

he was like anyway now well I'll read a couple books and then let's start production in two weeks yeah no then they're like right we're gonna interview every single survivor.

Right. Every fucking cop and journalist we can get our hands on. That's the thing. Like, you imagine the script. 18 months of, like, deep research. You imagine the script was very good at the point the Fincher read it, but it was a script that was an adaptation of the book. Yeah. And then he was like, now you need to essentially become Robert Graysmith, do your own investigation. Yes, exactly.

Dig into all of these people. Yeah. And like just deepen the script. Yeah. Which is just circumstances that are kind of like unreplicatable in terms of why

this script stands out in the rest of his career. Yeah. Like, Graysmith is so full of praise for him. And my favorite thing is that

him being like, you know, the attention to detail this man had and all that is that like, there's no flashlight shot in the movie where you can really see the flashlight on the road even though the zodiac killer had claimed he could he could like put a flashlight on his gun so that you could see it and fincher went to a flashlight museum stop and said like so in 1969

were there bulbs that existed that could have done this? And they searched their bulb archive. And they're like, no, there's no way. And Fincher was like, then it couldn't be done. And so the flashlight will look like this in the movie. Like shit like that. Where is the flashlight museum? Great question. I'd love to go there with David Fincher.

With David Fincher, please, dear Lord. Patreon app. God, that made me really excited. I'm not gonna lie. No, it's so good. I'm very, very titillated by that story. Graysmith's quote is essentially, that uh god that made me really excited i'm just i'm not gonna lie it's so good very very titillated by that story graysmith's quote is essentially he outdid the police my hat's off to him oh my god right he came in with questions that people had not asked in 40 years of investigating

this case right well i think isn't that part of the the appeal of graysmith in general to as well like in in writing the book was that he was just the guy that like it didn't feel like a reporter. It didn't feel like a cop. He's not Department of Justice. Right. He's not like some, you know, monkey on their back. He's this nerd.

Yeah. Which, by the way, is I think the way that Fincher kind of Trojan horse is a studio into green lighting this movie is that pitch sounds a little sticky. Right. Of like, and he's just some guy. He's a cartoonist. Right. Who finds, and he's just some guy. He's a cartoonist. Right. Yeah.

Who finds himself in the Senate. He's an everyman. And it's Jake Gyllenhaal coming off of Brokeback. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, couldn't be hotter,

you know? And it's me doing serial killers again. Yes. Right. Like, you can see them ignoring what the actual script is.

Exactly. They're just so excited. Yeah. They're just like so over the moon. And they know how they can sell a movie like that. And then they get a three-hour. Right. They're like like why is it long

why is there a three minute sequence of them talking on the phone to Dermot Mulroney literally doing what cops have to do of like here are the various reasons

we deserve a warrant getting the warrant which is not in the theatrical cut like it's only on the DVD right because that was one of the scenes where the studio

is like absolutely not get the fuck out of here yeah Fincher's like I thought it was funny you know because it was kind of the scenes where the studio is like, absolutely not. Get the fuck out of here. Yeah. Fincher's like, I thought it was funny, you know, because it was kind of like Charlie's Angels,

you know. That's his joke, yes. He's like, I thought it was a joke and the studio's like pulling their hair out. They're like, it's two hours into the movie.

Like, we know they need a warrant. Like, you know, come on. Do you realize Grace Smith meets Toski at one hour

and 40 minutes into the film? Yeah, way into the movie. Way into the movie. No, of course. And like, it's again, it's not like a movie where they're like, part one, the journalist, part two, the cops, part three, Graysmith. It's like baton passing back and forth.

Those three guys. This is why it's like LA Confidential, though. It's those three guys. It just kind of seamlessly. It's those three guys, but right. Like sometimes. The movie just kind of like passes there's different alliances exactly like we're gonna pass we're gonna pass it off to avery now we're gonna pass it off and then avery kind of

departs like halfway two-thirds of the way into the movie like he's basically gone and like yeah like like the kevin spacey character well he departs all right but he's also like still alive the avery's still, but like haunting the movie like a ghost. Like a ghost, yeah. Every once in a while you see him again, you're like,

fucking library. He's just like a ruined man in the wake of this. Great. What are you talking about? You don't play Pong drinking quarts of vodka

in the morning on your houseboat. God, this fucking movie. I love this movie so much. Everyone who made the movie basically was like, it was like Chinese water torture. David Fincher is a maniac.

I respect and love him, but oh my God. Oh yeah, the first scene that they shot was the scene on the steps where he's like, you know, stop calling my house. It's like after he's been accused,

Toski's been accused of writing the letter. Right. And they said that he shot it 56 times. Yeah. And they were just like, help, help.

I would say Gyllenhaal's the biggest on the record baby about it. Partly, I think, because he would even say now, like, I was immature about it a little bit. He's 26. He's very young. He's 27. And yeah, 1980.

So yeah, it'd be about 25, 26. Downey's happy to be there because he was uninsurable two years earlier. For Downey, I think it's huge, but Downey is hilarious and rueful about like, it's a lot. And there's the anecdote about him peeing in jars and like bringing them around,

being like, I can't go to my fucking trailer, so I guess I'll pee in this jar. Yes. There's a really good anecdote. Gyllenhaal has the Fincher Paints with People line. Like, it's tough to be a color. Where I'm like, poor baby. You happen to be in the best movie ever made.

He's also so good in it. That's the thing that's so annoying. He's really well cast. He happened to be in the best movie ever made. He's also so good in it. That's the thing that's so annoying is because like, he's really well cast. You listen to him on the commentary and he's such, he is,

he's actively complaining in the commentary and saying, you know, oh, we had to do this so many times

or we had to do this and he, but, but he's so good in it that it's kind of strange to me because also, you know,

after this movie, doesn't he kind of go down like a weird he goes he has a little bit of a weird run and then we get prisoners and he's back yes make your point griffin but yes then right a note on gyllenhaal when is this film shooting what's the the run of the shoot i want to make sure i'm not wrong before i say this basically september 2005 to February 2006. So this is a big part of it, I know. And there was sort of like whispers and gossip around this and comment section at the time. And now in later

interviews, both of them have corroborated this. Okay. This movie is filming during the Brokeback campaign season. Right, right. Got it, got it. It starts filming basically right as the movie's premiering. Yeah. At the festivals,

the fall festivals, running through the whole season. He raps right before he actually has to go to the Oscars. And he's like the guy. He's now being pushed as like finally maybe his moment's like coming

to escalate up to like the A-list status. And Fincher will not release him to do shit. Right. And Fincher's like, you signed up. You're here. You have to be 100% focused in on this.

Right. And the other times he's worked with like A-list actors, it's someone like Pitt who's like, I need to like rebuild myself. Right. And also Pitt's like, I don't want to play that game. I don't care. Like, you know. Right.

Yeah, that's true. I'm giving myself over to you. Break me and rebuild me. Like when Pitt played the game to win the Oscar for Hollywood. Yes. That was him finally being like, oh, you guys want me to like show up and smile and like do some jokes? I'll do that. I'm divorced.

They were like, take the Oscar, please, Brad. You know, like, but he had been like ignoring that for a long time. I think Joan Hall's like, this is my moment. Everything's being handed to me in every sense. A, I'm not going to these like awards functions. He's not letting me attend them, right? B, there's all this other press I can be doing. Fincher was like, he was constantly surrounded by like 10 people.

I'll give you the line. Yeah, exactly. Right. He says Jake was in the unenviable position of being young and having a lot of people buy for his attention while working for someone who does not allow you to take a day off, Mr. Fincher. He made a bunch of movies. I don't think he'd ever been asked to concentrate on

minutiae. I think he was very distracted. He had people whispering that Jarhead was going to be a massive movie that put him in another league because that's going to come out. Every weekend, he was being pulled to go to Santa Barbara and the Palm Springs Film Festival and the expletive Catalina Film Festival guess catalina doesn't meet david's uh the fucking catalina film uh and when he'd show up for work he was very scattered he had his

managers and his silly agents who were coming to his trailers at lunch to talk about the cover of gq that's the exact thing he was being nibbled to death by ducks and not particularly smart ducks right it was hard for him to hit the ducks and not particularly smart ducks. Right. It was hard for him to hit the fastball. Now, the way Fincher's talking about it, you're like, it almost sounds like, and that's why he's terrible in the movie. And you're like, you got a very good performance out of it. No, you did. I don't think it was like, it was deliberate or by design, but all of that actually kind of helps the movie.

It does. It helps latter half Gray Smith. Him being trapped in the film and being forced to obsessively do this over and over again. I think he's like

not just I want to get my flowers and fucking like own this award season and go to every like banquet and whatever where Fincher's like

you get to go to like 5% of them. But also people are like strategizing. He's at like presidential campaign level of like are you gonna be a major movie star

where they want him to do everything and he probably also wants to go out and fucking party and shit I also think that it doesn't help that the character is so passive for the first half of the movie a lot of scenes of him being a little so many scenes are him sort of just reacting and Ruffalo and RDJ are so cool

in this movie. Exactly. And it's like, right, I'm playing the Boy Scout. And to do 60 takes of like reading a letter. Or scribbling down a thing. Yeah. Or reacting to like, oh, I guess my theory is wrong. You know, like it just, I can see that sort of also grading on him.

Like, where's my moment? Like, when do I get to? I think so much of it is that it was also just like... The fact that it was the Brokeback Awards season. No, you're right. No, I think it's a work of art. It's the only Oscar season he ever got to be a part of thus far. There is an exchange on the David Pryor extensive making of documentary

that I think about all the time, where Fincher is doing what is clearly like take 60 over the shoulder close up of his hands scribbling something. Right? Yeah. And he's giving him

some note and like Joan Hall looks up to him like a little kid wanting the approval of your dad at the baseball game and he's like

I'm good at inserts, right? Like I think I'm like I think I'm like particularly good at inserts. And Fincher in his way goes like no, no, no you are good at inserts. And Fincher in his way goes like, no,

no, no, you are, you are good at inserts. You know, it's, it's the actual like dialogue scenes that, that aren't usable.

Oh my God, David. And he's like, and then he kind of hits me. He's like, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. And John Hall's like,

Hey, I know, but I am good at inserts, right? And Fincher's like, yes, yes, you are.

And he goes, and you know why? Because I understand why they're important. And he's like, so desperate to be like,. And he goes, and you know why? Because I understand why they're important. And he's like so desperate to be like, I want you to give me the credit for acknowledging that I understand that this isn't meaningless. Yes, yeah. I'm really trying to focus on like giving you what you need.

I don't think it's just my hand, it's not acting. But it's like their whole dynamic in a nutshell. Yeah. You can extrapolate from that. Yeah. My favorite line, actually, is Ruffalo saying, like,

I did my first day with 68 Takes with Jake. It's the scene you were talking about. Oh, 68, yeah. I was like, please kill me. And Fincher came over

walking up at some point and I was like, I hope he's coming here to fire me. The idea of, like, one day and you're like, I hope Fincher's gonna be like, Mark, that's enough.

That's enough. Thank you so much. The actors who work best within Fincher's system, like Mark that's enough Thank you so much The actors who work best within Fincher's system and it does feel like Ruffalo got there by his admission he was the one who took to it the most. He says I finally understood quote he's taking a stab at immortality

which I think is a really great line from Ruffalo like he decided good enough is not fucking good enough. Which is a great line as well. Yeah. Well I think Ruffalo's which is a great line as well people like Eisenberg talk about and it's kind of surprising that it comes from him considering how neurotic he is but that he's like at a certain moment it actually

becomes comforting to go like there is so little pressure on any one take as much as you know he's like striving for immortality and perfection he's giving you the space to have each take just be like, and just try stuff. And just do it. Because we're going to keep doing it.

We're not moving on until we have it. So rest assured, I will not let this be done until I have the take I want. And Gyllenhaal talks about like, for me, I like the pressure cooker of you only have five takes to get this right. I want the pressure cooker of, you only have five takes to get this right. I want the risk. There is something about that in my experience where you're like, oh my God, we're running out of time or we're going to get kicked out of this location or whatever it is.

And it's like, okay, you know, it's like famously Tommy Lee Jones did that, you know, big monologue in the Fugitive twice. You know, they had two takes that they just like, you know, spliced together and then that was it. And, you know, wins him an Oscar, you know, like it's like, there is something about that. I think that when you watch Fincher's stuff though,

it seems like it would be impossible to, again, his staging with camera, it would be impossible to do unless you've done it 56 times because the camera is moving perfectly. The camera's not just like, sort of like tilting up when Gyllenhaal stands up, when he's talking about,

you know, door to door, you know, I've walked it, like that whole diner scene at the end, like such an incredible scene. But even just the way

the camera moves to capture him, like as a director watching that move, you're like, you're camera guy and the actor and everything,

everything has to be working at the same moment. Yeah. So that it's perfect. And're like, you're camera guy and the actor and everything. Everything has to be working at the same moment. Yeah. So that it's perfect. And I envy the money and the time and the power that Fincher has to do that. And yet at the same time, I'm not sure that I would be a better filmmaker if I had that, to be quite honest. It's a specific mine. Yeah. But like, in my past experience as an actor, the most frustrating feeling in the world is to be like, that was the take. Yeah. And you like hit your fucking, like, scene made on the shoulder and you're like, but that was

it. We fucking got it. And then you hear someone go like, sound was off on that one. Right, right, right. And then the director yells from behind the monitor like, okay, so we'll go with take three. Versus Fincher being like, if sound is off, but performance was right in that one, we're going to keep going until the take where both are correct. It's not just about making actors do it 80 times.

No, it's not. I would be so bad at making movies. That's the thing. People lose that, I think, in talking about him. I agree when they talk about him. I think they talk about, they're thinking he's exacting on the performances.

He's exacting on every single aspect of it. You just can't do what he does. No. Unless you're doing takes, you know, that are in the double digits. I just, I think it would be impossible. No, I agree with you. I agree with you. Yeah.

I mean, it's a really good Downey anecdote that he told recently in doing sort of his really good career look back stuff in the Oppenheimer press tour. Yeah. Where he was like, you know, I found it so frustrating. And there was a day, and Downey, I think, prides himself on being like, I fucking, I can nail it. Yeah. Like, even when I was back down on heroin, I could get it in three takes.

I mean, yeah. Right? Like, I get results. Home for the holidays. Yes. Yeah. Most relaxed performance in history. I'll give you the Downey quote now, and then we should talk about the plot of the movie. But I do love this particular quote. This might be a different one than the one that Doss used you sometimes it's really hard because it might not feel collaborative but ultimately filmmaker is a director's medium i just decided aside from several times i wanted to garrote him that i was going to give him what he wanted i

think i'm a perfect person to work for him because i understand gulags that's the great quote the one he said on the oppenheimer press tour was that like they were doing 60 takes of some scene. Right. With him and Gyllenhaal. And he was just like, David, what is the fucking hold up? Yeah. I guarantee you 10 of those were usable. I know.

I know it. Even if you're being as like discerning as you are. Right. And Fincher was like, OK, Robert, come back here with me. And he made him watch all the takes on the monitor. And he went, Robert, what do you think? Do we have the monitor and he went Robert what do you think do we have it and he went no you're right we don't

Robert Downey Jr. is the one who's like he's right I hate to admit it right and Fincher steps out from Video Village and he went I thought it was good enough but Downey Jr. said we don't have it so we're delete them all delete them all get rid of them that's the other problem but he's like that's the moment where I

think he is right but this is also the first movie where he's shooting digitally obviously which is a crucial part of this movie gorgeous it looks incredible how a film that was shot in 1080p 1080p it looks stunning but it does also mean that he is literally

from video village going delete that take yeah and I think it's crushing for people like Gyllenhaal. Who's like, I've made it to hear like, yeah, a recycling bin for that one. Or Robert Downey Jr. Who's like,

I have battled against the fucking tsunami of drug addiction for 20 years. I'm here again. And it's like, delete. Do you think the sound of the trash when you like drag it and plays on set

yeah Pinscher would put a microphone up to the yeah so uh yeah like that must have been demoralizing

but you know what they made one of the great they made one of the great movies it's the Ruffalo thing it's the stab at immortality and they did it right yeah

Paris Savita shot this movie maybe like the best cinematographer of my lifetime yeah gone far too soon. Yes, and I do think that's part of why it looks so goddamn good. It's just like, it doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't make, I mean, as somebody that only shoots on digital and was only given the opportunity to shoot on digital, never was I, there was never a conversation that I've ever had about film versus digital. It was just like, if you want to make this, you're shooting on the red, you're shooting on the Alexa,

you're shooting. That's another reason. This is one of my favorite movies because it's like, it can look gorgeous. It gives you hope. It gives me hope. I'm just like, it can look absolutely stunning. The Thompson Viper.

The Viper. Yes. That's right. Yeah. It feels like Fincher is, man, use that on Miami Vice as well. Sure.

Did he use it on Collateral? I'm not sure. I think no. I think on Collateral, he was using... Because Collateral looks like shit. My cell phone. I'm going on record.

I was going to say, yeah, my cell phone from the time. He was using my Nokia 3300. Sorry. No, Fincher is just so good. To be clear, I love how Collateral looks, but it's of its moment.

But it looks like shit. It owns looking like shit. Park Chan-wook also used the Viper phone, the Thompson Viper on... Oh, I love how Collateral looks, but it's of its moment. But it looks like shit. It owns looking like shit. Park Chan-wook also used the Viper film, the Thompson Viper on I'm a Cyborg. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we recently talked about that. No, Fincher just knows how to like, this is a period where people are still like, how do we make video look exactly like film? Yes, yeah. And he's like, no, you need to like push up the things that only video can do.

need to like push up the things that only video can do. Yes. And this is to an off use Sims term a Simsian phrase that I think about a lot. This is a movie where the look of it makes your teeth hurt. Oh yeah. In a good way where there's something about like there's something a little too clinical.

Too clear. I can see too much I guess. Even though it's a lower resolution than we're now used to this film feels clearer. I watched my Blu-ray. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if it looks worse on streaming or something.

I watched Blu-ray. Yeah. The other thing with video, he just says it was less about him liking digital cameras more and more about workflow. That's what he always says. He's like, I like to work in low light. It's perfect for that. I like to be able to look at takes and sort through

that's more representative real time of what it looks like all that stuff he talks like it's easier to adjust the image he knew he was going to do all and then it's just critics who are like he can see across america's digital horizon he's like if you say so it plugs into my mac that's what i like about it basically Basically, it was like, I'm tired. Right. There's a quote in the dossier of like,

I just never again wanted to sit around and watch someone take $1,000 of film out of a camera, get a black bag, put $1,000 worth of film into the bag,

back into the camera, and just like sit on my ass while that happens. Okay, can we talk about the movie? Zodiac begins with the Lover's Lane and Vallejo killing, right? That's the first sequence.

You don't see the first killing because it had no survivors and thus... And also, it's sort of like, it's how people discovered the Zodiac murder was a murder happened and this guy was like,

I did this and also, by the way, I did that other one. Which I think is great. By the way, yeah, yeah. Right, so you have to get back to it. This is the beginning and then immediately be told, no did this, and also, by the way, I did that other one. Which I think is great. By the way, yeah, yeah. Right, so you have to get back to it. But it's so great to start it and be like, this is the beginning, and then immediately be told, no, this is now basically the start of a pattern

that's being linked back to a thing you didn't see. I just remember sitting in the theater and hearing like, goodbye, and just being like, I've never been so scared in my life. Something that I think the first scene captures is like the real randomness of the violence. Of course, once you finish the movie, everything, like any good cold

open, everything you need to know is actually in the beginning. You know, like, like you, you understand who Darlene is. You understand that she's married, but she's with Mike. You understand that she is scared of somebody like all of those things that get revealed later right when you're watching it the first time you're like she clearly just wants to like make out with this guy and he's being kind of nervy and she's annoyed about it and then there's like a creepy car okay okay great you know but the but the idea of like a random act of violence that's seemingly motiveless. Right. Is not on their mind. Not on their mind.

And I think it's not on our minds, you know, normally. Well, it's on my mind because the film's called, my stub says Zodiac, so I am worried about it. No, I'm like so tense in the fucking theater. Yeah. But yes, of course, right. It's not, that's not what they're thinking when they're going to Lover's Lane.

Like, what if we got shot though by the Zodiac Killer? Are we going to talk about the dolly shot at the beginning? Yes. What the hell? Okay. What the hell? Back we go. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

No, no, it's fine. But what the fuck? Like, that's the type, that's the type of thing that as a filmmaker, you're just like, if I pitched that, you know, I would be laughed out of the room. Like people would say, I'm so sorry. Please, you're just like if i pitched that you know i would be laughed out of the room like people would say i'm so sorry please you're excused thank you so much for being here but we we are thanks for playing thanks for playing but we we never want to see you again attach it to the

attach the camera to the car and shut the fuck up like everybody else you know like and and he builds what 40 miles of track 40 it's like 40 yards of fucking dolly track. And it is that panic room kind of thing as well, of just, like, the camera kind of perfectly moving. Gliding. Gliding seamlessly to, like, bring you into this, like, you know, here's this suburban tableau of Americana. This coming after panic room, it's like he's really just strengthened

that sense of like camera as a character. Yes. Where there's this unerring quality to like this camera that seems to be moving with a mind of its own.

Is he Hitchcock's successor? In certain ways? Yeah. I think no. I think he would, I mean, he obviously cites Hitchcock so massively,

but like so many people, but like I think Hitchcock would watch something like Zodiac like zodiac and be like oh don't why is it so fucking long yeah you know fair enough fair enough right like yeah yeah like hitchcock would be like this is not really obeying my kind of taught you know storytelling sensibilities it's like he inherited a lot of the equipment yeah um yeah do you know the thing about the clothes the clothes I mean this is the clothes

what about the clothes the clothing this is such a like Fincher being vindicated by the obsessiveness of like getting the details right he said like

people always ask me when I was gonna make my Amacord and this is it yeah and he's not a character in it but he is

because he's growing up in this era and also because it's a movie about, like, the movie about the pursuit of... Yes. The kid... What's his name? The, uh... Mike Mageau? Yes. Yeah, Lee Norris is the young Mike Mageau.

So it's Fourth of July. In real life, the real Mike Mageau was wearing three pairs of pants, three sweaters, and a shirt over it. Because he was cold or because he was trying to look beefy? No one fucking knows. But it's a hard fact. The conspiracy theorists are like,

he like bulked up, which is why he survived. Sure. Because he had a feeling he was going to be in danger. Even if it wasn't the Zodiac, there's the feeling of her husband or something. Right. And he was sort of insulated in this way with body armor. It makes sense that that's part of why he survived. Because why else would he be wearing five layers?

To look bigger than he was because he was a teenager. Which is the second part of it. You're like, well, that's just this weird human little emotional nugget that you would never think to write. But he's there and isn't unpacked or explained. He's this, look, I mean, they talk about it in the movie, but he's this interesting thing of like, there was a survivor, but they could never talk to him. Yes. Because he just left. He was just like, I don't want to talk about it i'm done yeah and like they're like no we really are trying to

figure out who shot you though yeah and he was like i don't care i'm going off the grid like and it's the 70s so you won't find me like and and so he did and then when he resurfaced years later she was like john carroll lynch guy kind of looks like the guy anyway. How are you doing? Great. Jimmy Simpson. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we have that.

And is that the real 911 call or is it can't be right? I think it can't be right. That would be crazy. Yeah. But that's that call. Like the goodbye is so freaky. It haunts me. But then after that,

okay, we're in the, we're in the credits. I'm now actually just watching Zodiac. I just have it on. Because then you're sort of doing the mail cart through the Chronicle office. It was establishing the space, but also giving you the vibe, the energy.

You get the recreation of the newsroom, but also the port of San Francisco. Yeah. The Transamerica building isn't built yet the the highway that collapsed

in the earthquake he's rebuilt like you know he wants to start with that you know like he wants to start with like it's San Francisco

right like full-time machine we're not going for pastiche or kitsch or yes the great John Getz as the editor-in-chief

as good as it gets uh doing looking at his cartoons which do look really bad horrid horrid slightly less horrid what is it not so horrid not so horrid let's go with not so horrid yeah do you think gray smith was good because you're like you don't give me incisive political cartoonist vibes right like when you're like seeing him in this movie not in the movie yeah Do you think he was a good cartoonist? I think he was like a skilled draftsman with no voice. Right, well he could draw. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I should look that up, like Robert Grace Smith's cartoons.

Yeah. It's like sort of telling where he ended up. Not only just like in this, but then he just continued writing like through crime books. Yeah. Right. Because he wrote Autofocus as well, right? He sure did. Yeah. Oh, that's right yeah yeah just like stayed in this zone good at sifting through source materials yes and like human darkness yes

yeah i'm looking at some of his cartoons now and they're not very good it looks like uh yeah nope that one's bad too okay uh i've only got i could only find three but they were all really bad. Okay. Okay, so let's keep it going, guys. What else is happening in Zodiac? The letters arrive. John Terry as well. I love John Terry with the glasses on his nose.

This movie is obviously just like, you know, 50-something male character actor porn. I also love that in the scene when they get the letter, you don't really have that. The only thing I can think of is like character actor porn. I also love that in the scene when they get the letter, you don't really have that. The only thing I can think of is like the basic version of the scene is like they read the letter

and everyone's like, oh my God. You know, like literally everyone's just trying to figure it out. It's like, do we know if this Vallejo story is true?

And he's like, I cover crime in Vallejo. You know, like it's, you know, it just, it's a bunch of, it's a bunch of newsmen doing their jobs. Like they don't really grasp...

The debate is, more than anything, it's what page do we put this on? Yeah, exactly. And what do our competitors do? Yeah, and what are our competitors doing? That's the, that is the only debate to them. Yeah. They are still like,

is this basically crankpot, you know, shit, but they're kind of like, will we look stupid or get scooped if we don't put it on or if we do put it on? The guy who brings up, is it your responsible to publish him is like ignored immediately. Ignored immediately. Yeah. And like they, I mean, you know, I've heard many tales of journalism. They do the weird sort of thing where they're like, well, we'll put it on page four.

And it's like, that's, it's cover or not, but whatever. Fine. You split the difference, that's, it's cover or not, but whatever. Fine. You split the difference. Good job, guys. And then Robert Downey Jr. as Paul Avery, you immediately get the generational divide thing. Like all these guys in their white collar shirts. Oh, yes.

And he's wearing that beautiful vest. Yeah. The only guy who's like influenced by Haight-Ashbury. Yeah. He's clearly just younger and a little more plugged in than these guys, which is fine. I mean, these would be guys who were born like pre-World War I. These, you know, 50-something newspaper editors. Absolutely.

Yeah. At the Chronicle. I think the Fincher take method bearing out. Like, Downey Jr. could do this in his sleep. Even at this point in his career where he really has something to prove. He absolutely could. But the magic of Downey Jr. is that it almost always seems like he's doing it in his sleep.

Totally. Right. Yeah. But like there's something about not using his hottest take. Yeah. And using the take where he's a little burnt out

and he almost is like doesn't have the energy to like throw the asides out to the room. Right. Right, right, right. He's kind of like throwing them away

as he walks away. Like there is something performative about Paul Avery. Yes. And I think that's kind of what you're getting at. You know, but you're right. He's kind of like throwing them away as he walks away. Like there is something performative about Paul Avery. And I think that's kind of what you're getting at, you know, but you're right. He doesn't pick the takes where he's performative. No, and no one else reacts to it. Yeah. With anything other than frustration that he's doing his bits, his routine.

Really quickly, I love the little shot of when it's before they get the letter when Grace Smith walks by Paul Avery's desk and there's a bunch of people around him and they're all talking and you immediately get this little moment of like, oh, this guy's a nerd. Nobody likes him. Yes. I think it's also, again,

a simplified version of this movie. Gray Smith sees the code, works on it and cracks it. Right. You cut out. Instead, he's just interested in it. Yeah. And no one even notices or cares except for Avery.

And Avery isn't like, what do you got? He's just kind of like, I'm going to file away that the little nerd over there is kind of plugged into this. At the very least, so I can mock him about it. Right. And knew that he would not actually reveal his name in this code. But right. Of course, who solved the code? Some very cute, God bless them, married freaks who love puzzles.

You know, out in wherever. Most versions of this movie would go, consolidate it. Have him crack the first one. And going back to the Gyllenhaal performance thing, have your hero

do something heroic. Yes. Have him solve the first puzzle, which he doesn't do. No. And instead, he's going to circle around

this movie kind of, you know, unnecessarily for half of it. Like a lost dog. Which is Fincher's line about him where like unsurprisingly Fincher liked Donnie Darko and was like I'd sort of pegged him for a while and he had the

balance of being this sort of like wide-eyed kid and also playing obsessive really well. Which you need both in this part. I guess when I'm seeing this movie I love Robert Downey Jr. to death and I've seen Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and I'm kind of all in on like, he's back.

Well, that's the thing. The three of those guys. I mean, that's the thing. It's like, it was such, that's why it not hitting feels so weird because it's like, all three of them were about to be huge. It was a little bit of like past, present, future,

but three guys who all deserved more than they had at that moment. Ruffalo was one of those guys where I had, as a little Oscar nerd, like adored him and you can count on me. Adored him. And then watched him being like, wind talkers, you know, in the cut, obviously I liked, but was a flop. We've talked about this too. He had like health problems. He was supposed to be in science.

And then it sort of felt like, wasn't that guy supposed to be the dude? But then he had had Eternal Sunshine and Collateral where you're like, oh, well, he's supporting but interesting in those. Then he did just like having Rumor has it and you're like, he looks like he has guns trained on him at all times. Poor guy. And so, but like still with Ruffalo, you were like, I'm not letting go of Ruffalo. Like that's someone. But the main two reasons he was cast in this movie, I know we're getting a little ahead of his character,

right? One, Fincher really liked him in Collateral. He's good in Collateral. And he kind of seems more like a normal person in that movie

than any other character. Well, it also, he just seems like someone who talked, clearly talked to cops and was like, cops act this way

because he's sort of, you know. But he's also not playing like a movie cop. No, but he's, you know, he's got the goatee

and like the slicked back hair and yeah, but yeah. Look aside, right? Right. And he was like, I pitched him

and the studio was like, Ruffalo does not look like a cop, sound like a cop, move like a cop. And he's like, that's kind of what you want in this part. Right.

Which I think is the genius of the casting. You need to hire an actor to play the guy that other actors are riffing on when they play movie cops. He has to play the boring version of a movie star cop.

The real world version. But the other thing is, I assume just because of his closeness with Pitt, he said he asked Jennifer Aniston, who are your favorite actors? And she said Gyllenhaal and Ruffalo. Who are the guys you've worked with that you think are really good?

I got a bunch of dudes to cast in this movie. And she did Rumor Has It with Ruffalo. So Rumor Has It kind of helps him get this. Wow, thank you, Ryan. How much it's a mailman performance. And like, I was so in on, I think I've talked about this before,

Gyllenhaal because of seeing him on stage in This Is Our Youth in the West End. Oh, sure. Which was one of those things where it was with Hayden Christensen and Anna Paquin. Which Ruffalo was originally in. He was.

He sure was. He was the... The first performer. The Gyllenhaal, right? Yeah, he was Warren, yeah. And that was one of those performances where we were all kind of there for Christensen and Paquin.

And we were like, oh yeah, and like the October Sky kid's in it. Right. And then you watch it and you're like, jesus that kid is like so fucking sensitive and interesting and like and then donnie darko came out like around then and he was we were definitely like he is gonna be like you know whatever the big star of the next group of kids the moment with the moment where we are in the movie too or i think we're about to get to is sort of the moment

where i fall in love with graysmith which you know, when he's trying to remember the most dangerous game, you know, like where he gets sort of stuck on something. Right. And I think just as somebody, for me personally, that was when I really felt, I was like, I relate with that. Yes. I absolutely relate with that. And he's like ruffling papers. Ruffling papers and like just not being able to like. He doesn't remember until four scenes later that's what i love yeah and then he

runs off i mean we have to talk about lake barryessa but like he runs off and he comes back like you know it just there is a type of person that will get something into their head and it will just jump around in there and be in there until until it comes out. And he nails it. He just absolutely nails how sad that is, but also how invigorating it is for the person it's happening to. The other thing I love that I think he nails and nails early on that helps sort of pin him when he's going to float around the movie for the first hour or so is like his hyper literal processing of things. Yes. Yeah.

Where there's like someone makes the quip of like, what are you? Some kind of boy scout. He goes like, Eagle Scout. Eagle Scout. That's later. And he doesn't even treat it as like,

this is an important correction. He's just like, Oh yeah, of course. Right. I mean, I was an Eagle Scout. Do you smoke?

Yes. One time in high school. An incredible one. Yeah. He improvised that. That is so fucking funny. Right. Uh, one that. That is such a fucking funny line. One other thing early on that I really want to know is that Venture, God bless him, shows us them taking a picture of the codex. Oh, God.

Because he's like, hey, man, back in the day, this is what you had to do. Go take it down to the studio and we're going to line it up and we're going to put it under the big and we're going to you know um because i almost in the movie i'm like how is everyone even getting a copy of it you know what i mean we're now whatever we're so used to just like yeah you can take a picture of it well you know iphone ipad i don't know anymore um anyway all right so when is the lake barry s yeah that's right after. Yeah, here we are. Yeah. And they actually went there to shoot it. Yes, they did.

Another reason this movie costs a lot is Fincher was like, we're going to each of the real places. And they were like, pick one side of California. Yeah, exactly. And he was like, North and South are different. They're different. If the cities exist, we're going to those cities for those departments and those precincts. Right. But then he's like, we're going to shoot in San Francisco.

And San Francisco's like, you're not shooting a zodiac movie here yeah and he was like well guess i have to recreate it using fabulous digital technology then the studio's like god that's also expensive god damn it my favorite thing about lake barriessa which i assume no one's ever been to including me yeah is that it has a gigantic uh artificial hole in it oh wow wow to deal with like sluicing and it looks like a portal to hell to deal with what? like sluicing the water out if it overflows

or something sluicing? yeah leave me alone I don't know anything about lakes I'm just learning a new word it's called a spillway so if there's like heavy rains they open the spillway and they

get it out i guess loose and someone loose sims they they someone like someone got uh shut up uh be quiet someone someone got sucked into this spillway once really yeah which is an unfortunate but anyway it truly looks like a portal to hell yes so this sequence at the lake much like the the lover's lane sequence is scary obviously but that's more like you're like yeah he shot them pretty gertie man's playing yes it's like there's there's a time yeah there's something almost like kind of i would say i would venture to say entertaining about that particular sequence what you would imagine from a Fincher studio. There's the frightening details such as like he randomly walked right back and shot them another couple times and the phone call.

Yeah. But like the Lake Barias sequence is so weird. Yes. And no one would ever make anything look like this except that this is how this happened, which only makes it scarier. This is the first scene where I go, oh, I think I'm watching a masterpiece. Right. This is the moment in the theater go, oh, I think I'm watching a masterpiece. Right. This is the moment in the theater where I go, this just leveled up. When he stabs the guy first, the sound.

Yes, yes. When she turns over, I almost screamed in the theater. Like, and I've never screamed at a scary movie. Like, and I was, I could feel it coming up in my throat of just like, I might start screaming. I've never been so terrified. There's something about the dullness of the sound of the knife going in where you're like, well, of course, right. It just sounds like a butcher working. Yeah.

And you're like, I've never seen a movie where this isn't accentuated by. It doesn't sound like a knife going into a melon or whatever. There's no score. There's no like, there's nothing. It's just so pedestrian. You're just hearing like nature sounds and this really... And the weird conversation too.

And because like... That's what's weird too. It's like he has a gun. Why doesn't he just shoot them? He stands there weirdly for a while. He's in this get up. I escaped from jail. I'm taking your car.

It's motiveless. It doesn't... He doesn't have a connection to these two. He designed a supervillain costume for himself. He never used it again. No. Shit like that where you're like, why'd he do that? That shot, that sort of like Western shot of his belt where you see his utility belt of all his different things.

It's absolutely bizarre. And bizarre in only the way that real life could be bizarre. And even just the fact that they see him without the mask. He's coming. He turns back around behind the tree then puts the rest of his costume on. Then comes back out. I mean, you're just like this fucking loser. Do you know what I mean? Like is about to. Yeah, he's kind of a loser.

Commit this heinous bizarre act of violence against these two unsuspecting people. Yes. The Fincher thing he says about this movie so much is like, I wanted to make a movie

that serial killers couldn't masturbate to. Right. Yes. Yeah. The challenge was, can you make something that somehow doesn't

glamorize them at all? It is really the anti-seven. It makes them seem so dorky. It's like, you have no plan, bro. Yes. Like, it's not like this artful like and I'm making art projects out of my victims and I'm following this like seven deadly sins. It's like the opposite of that.

It's like I am randomly shooting people for no reason except that I want to be famous. And part of what's so scary and upsetting is like the clumsiness of it. Oh, God. And that he's using such extreme technical precision and like using CGI to augment, replicating things in the least cinematic way, in the way that makes them feel kind of dull and meaningless. That's more upsetting. in that scene is that in the back of your mind, not when you're watching the movie, but when you're just walking around in life, way, way in the back of your mind is this, is that little fight or flight, like somebody, somebody could hurt me. You know, I'm just walking to the subway. Someone could hurt me. There's no stimuli for it. It's just way in the back there. And, and that, whatever, whatever that little part of your brain is is it's so hyper activated watching this

movie that i was aware of it for weeks afterwards like weeks for weeks i was just like someone is going to stab jump out of nowhere and stab me for no reason especially because the victim is talking through all these excuses right he keeps he lists off like probably six different things which is something you would do yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not even saying him trying to get out of it. I'm saying even like, she's like, uh, that guy's kind of weird. It's a public place.

Yeah, well, that part first, right? The buildup, right. But there's just something frightening about how he then keeps trying to be like, I'll give you my money. I could write you a check. I could probably help you out. And the guy's just saying nothing to him.

It's shot perfectly. You have no, like, matching coverage. Like, everything is from the victim's POV all the way up to that extreme close-up of, you know, was that gun even loaded? And he shows him the... Oh, my God. It's just, like, absolutely bone-chilling to this day.

There's this thing about it being... I mean, when he is being stabbed in the back, right, and you cut to the shot of her just kind of watching it so close to his face, looking at his reaction

while she hears this sound. And then when it finally cuts out to the wide shot and she turns over, the moment you're talking about, the fact that the blood is digital. Yeah.

And for him, it's like, I don't want to have to deal with resets and costume changes and all of that. All of the violence is digitally done. I still think most digital blood looks fake and somehow this still looks better than anything else

15 years earlier I don't know how he did it when she turns over and you're watching new wounds be created but also the old wounds are growing and expanding and you're like this is actually what it looks like

I'm used to seeing squibs in a way that is like, I accept this is the language of it. Yeah. But I feel like for the first time I'm watching what would actually happen if you're three inches away from someone being stabbed to death, which is the most upsetting shit in the world. Yeah. You're really kind of in Brian. What's his last name? Hartnell? The victim?

Brian. But you're like, you're watching his pov of her like because he's he's on that side of her it's almost as if he turned and that shot is what he's seeing and it's just like the ultimate powerlessness they're fucking hogtied oof yeah i mean it's again i'm like shaking right now talking about it so then we should be right like I do think it's then reason this movie works we're cutting back to

newspapers and it is such a relief you're just so glad and Avery is such a relief now cause Grace Smith's a little freak and he's immediately

drawing a picture of the Zodiac in his weird bag costume and he Avery has the perfect like you know where he's like what is he doing

out of a layhood sweet Jesus what are you drawing like yes and like i love the the combo of them because avery is like i am fundamentally i'm a crime reporter like i know how to do this like yes this is going to be the case that defines his career yeah but he's like i you know i know how to write about this yeah and then graysmith is like the shadow on the horizon of like you don't understand the freakish obsession with this kind of stuff that's dawning yeah like as we enter this like tragic american age right it's the 60s end and fucking you know the nasty 70s arrive and all that and graysmith is like i'm just compelled by this right yeah i mean like that's why this movie

is so fucking influential to this day because i don't know mean, that's why this movie's so fucking influential to this day because I don't know if you've heard about this, but a lot of people are really interested in true crime to this day in this kind of obsessive way.

It is the part of the movie where you're like, social network, you can give them credit for like, you can kind of see where things are going. And that movie seemed

to predict a lot of things correctly or have a good, clear vision of where we were heading. But like, no one making this film could have anticipated that like Reddit would become basically a million Robert Graysmiths interfacing with each other

and all being like, I'm the one person who can solve this despite not having the qualifications. So right after all that, bird's eye view shot of a cab going through san francisco turning cameras like fixed on the cab and then we see the cab murder like that's 25 minutes into the movie we're done with zodiac killings yeah there's one more sequence with ioni sky you know

which is not a murder kathleen johns yeah but like but that's it yes then we have two plus hours of movie left right and this is it's only after this sequence that you finally introduce. Meet the cops. Yeah. Because there's a San Francisco crime that went down. Yeah. But that, that car shot is another one where you're like,

why, why did that just. What is this? Why does it look like Grand Theft Auto 1? And he's just like, it is, it is a shot that is technically impossible. Yes.

Right. To have this bird's eye view that like hairpin turns perfectly. The way the camera turns. Again, it's like that dolly shot at the beginning. Like it's like this can't exist. But it's also not like stupid Zemeckis mocap impossible flying camera shit. No, no. It's like he's treating it like there is a real camera there, but then training it to do a thing that it wouldn't actually do. Yeah. We talk about this in Star, like in working, working on Star Wars that,

that like when you go into space and you're, you're shooting the, the, the ships, it's like, there's definitely this feeling of like when the VFX people turn it in that they want to kind of give you a sense that there's a cameraman. Yeah. And I'm like, no, there's no cameraman in space. You know what I mean? Like the camera, the camera should be almost documentary style. Like it just, it, it only can pan and move.

Right. In this way that, that, um, George wanted to, to do his like cycling documentary or whatever it was, you know, like there's no,

there's no shaky, like, oh, I didn't realize that was coming, you know, like, you know, or the faked mistakes.

Or the faked mistakes or any of those things. And I think like Fincher is always doing that. It's not the camera can go anywhere. I mean, it can, and it can defy certain rules, but only the rules that would tell the story in the best way. Well, it's like a visual omniscient narrator. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where it's like a visual omniscient narrator. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where it's like,

it knows the exact move to make at the exact right time. Yeah, it's like, oh, the cab's moving. Boom. Yeah. Just to be clear, yeah, Star Wars doesn't have that,

but it does have a Toski station. It does? Yes. Named after Dave Toski. Of course. And Luke wants to go there to pick up some power converters. Yeah, yeah.

He never gets them. He never gets them. But soon, of course, Disney Plus will have a new show in which Luke got the power converters. Yes. Right them he never gets them but soon of course disney plus will have a new show in which luke got the power converters yes right it'll be 10 episodes of him going back to get them yes that would be good absolutely fill in some gaps no that's like i want like the workplace sort of like auto parts sitcom toski yeah uh the introduction of mark ruffalo as dave toski uh i do love the line about where he's like,

you owe me a new lamp. I'm going to like describe this lamp to you. June Diane Rayfield, her first film appearance. I always forget she's in this. Yeah. I didn't know it was her first film. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I get why he cast her though, because June Diane Rayfield does look like someone from a different time. Like she looks like a 60s gal in a way. You know, like you just give her a hairstyle. I love that they never say her name. Yeah, they don't. Carol.

Carol Toski. I got it. But and then, I mean, we haven't mentioned him yet. Anthony Edwards. You know, Jesus Among Us, the greatest man who ever lived. Dr. Green.

I don't remember what profile it was i guess it must have been some piece when he was making this movie but i just remember reading a description of fincher behind the monitor watching anthony edwards work and like going like that's an actor yeah like yelling to the crew he's like look at that every fucking take is different he seems so fincherian yeah whatever that is seemed happier with him. He loved him. Any other actor he's ever worked with. He's so good in this movie. So good.

Because he never wants to steal a scene, right? Like, you know, because he truly feels consummate, you know, the guy that he's playing. But also he's like, this movie can only exist because of how thorough this guy's notes were, right? So he's like, this guy's the secret hero of the movie. That's exactly right and the tragedy of the film the thing that makes the film so kind of bleak is that halfway through he's like i shouldn't be in this movie i can't do this anymore right right this is going in a bad direction like you immediately understand they're in the car together toski's obviously this like interesting odd guy and there's fucking you know what's his name

armstrong and you know toski's like do? Armstrong. And, you know, Toski's like, do you have any, like, crackers? You know, handing him the crackers. Like, they're this unit. Grows him a reclosable snack sack. The way this scene looks,

like, the low light. Like, this is where the digital is, like, a triumphant thing. An absolute triumph, yeah. Right? Like, the fact that there's so much clarity,

but it's, like, the middle of the fucking night. And this is the sequence that's, like, entirely built in CGI. And it doesn't seem like there are floodlights everywhere or whatever you would have to do normally. And Fincher so rarely does handheld. Exactly.

I was going to say. You almost feel like he's doing it to ground the sequence around the fact that he's building a fake environment. Yes. Yes. I think that's actually so right on because he doesn't do, like you said, he doesn't do handheld unless it's, you know, deeply, deeply called for. And I think it is because he's trying not to mask the digitalness of it, but it's almost like a flex because then you have to go shoot like the plates for all of that. You know what I mean?

So I don't know. It just seems wild to me that the scene should not look as good as it does. No. And it's absolutely stunning. It's perfect. As you said, they're dynamic of just like this

very casual like working at the like, well, then why does he go to the front? You know, like where you're sort of like, but you're not an idiot. I love that.

You're cheating. It's too easy to think this guy's an idiot. This feels punchy in a way, but you're like, I guess this is sort of the building blocks of them just trying to figure out basic motivations.

Once again, this thing, I don't understand how this movie depicts this well. It's so good. I'm like, you are showing us the real versions of the people who usually get turned into movie characters. That's right. And I feel like I'm watching like, well, this is the documentary on who,

the guy who the movie character was based on and yet i'm still watching movie stars play out scripted scenes right and obviously this is why the wire had felt so revolutionary which is around the same time things like that where it's like yeah this is like boring and methodical and hunchy in a way that feels like we expect more of a Sherlock Holmes, like the handle, you know, it clearly this killer was five foot 10 or whatever. Where you're like, what? Anyone who turns their banter of talking through the crime into like a superpower. That's exactly right.

Yes. And instead what you get is, is just competency. And process. You know, and process and just like, okay, these guys are competent. They're going through the process. This is not the first shot cabbie that they've dealt with before. Yeah.

And we, with the dramatic irony of knowing who's done this. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, we're the ones that are like, oh, man, they have no idea what they're about to step in. Here's the other thing with this movie.

The next scene is the letter. Yeah. It's like, Bim at the newspaper. You know, we just went from, you know, routine cabbie shooting to mass murderer targets kids. Like, it's almost this beautiful little dance that you get to watch with them and see who they were before they get destroyed. Yes.

The other thing with this movie is, like, one of the scariest clouds hanging over it is just time, right? Yeah. That we know the movie we bought a ticket to. Yeah. And we're like, this stretches on forever. I don't know how they're going to end this movie, but I know in real life we never got clear answers. And so when like minute four of the movie

we're jumping like four days later, two weeks later, you're like, this film is going fast. That's the other thing I love about the little chyrons is that it's like, it's, is that they denote time not as like, I mean, sometimes it'll be like 1977 or whatever, you know what I mean?

Like, but they'll be like this much time later. Little increments. Like here's a net. Yeah. Here's the next increment of time that has gone by. Because the movie is being methodical, but it's also like time is getting skipped over. Yeah.

And you have to sort of fill in the blanks every time there's one of those and go like, so then for two weeks, nothing happened. Right. Or two weeks they all went about their day. But you're like, ah, they're losing it. Right.

Like, you know, whatever immediacy there is to this, like, it's going to leave them. Right. Like, the longer it takes. And like, they're immediately distracted

by like, oh, he says he's going to shoot kids in school buses. Right. Now we have to deal with that. Like, then later he's going to make a bomb. Now we have to figure out

if that's real. Like, if he can do that. There were two things that hit very differently for me watching this movie, again, for the first time in maybe a couple years. I don't know if I've watched it since 2020. Like one is obviously just the rise of true crime and amateur online murder solvers, right?

And these people who show up unannounced at victims' families' doors and want to grill them about... A particular obsession with serial killers. Yeah, correct. Really, really like... Right. But this sort of like citizen crime stopper shit.

And then the other part of it is like the pandemic and just being like living in a world with like several years of this invisible threat hanging over us. And it's sort of like waxes and wanes, right? And this feeling of being like cases are down. Maybe we're getting out of this. And you're like surge, new variant, whatever. This feeling of like anytime they cut ahead,

whatever amount of time you're like, okay, that was a period of time where there wasn't another killing or there wasn't a new discovery. There wasn't a letter. Right. Yeah. And even still,

it's like things were a little calmer, but also it's not resolved. Right. Yeah. And even still, it's like things were a little calmer, but also it's not resolved. People are still wondering at any moment, am I going to get the bad news? And in this day and age, you're not getting it on your phone. You're waking up the next morning in the newspaper and finding out something horrible happened last night.

But what I like to think about rewatching this movie is that half an hour into the movie, all the murders have been depicted and basically all the letters have come in apart from the later crackpot ones now that the earlier ones weren't crackpot um and you're like oh 99 of the evidence is now available to us and they're the rest of this movie is them going back to it and none of it over and over again like so much of what graysmith did was just open up the fucking files from like 1966 again. Yes.

You know, now it's when like if Anthony Edwards, you know, Armstrong and Toski are on it. Okay. Call, you know, Elias Kodias, you know, over in Vallejo. Call Donald in where's Napa, right? He's in Napa. He's Berryessa. And they're all like, by the way, why the fuck haven't you sent us this?

And they're, we're sorry. We're sorry. You know, it's like so much of that. We really should have been in on the handwriting. Right. You know, yeah. You philip baker hall who's phenomenal the opening credits of this movie when you go i know it's it's like the three cars it is and it's like the vince mcmahon just you wait this guy to him too are you kidding me because you have it's the staggered like towering inferno dylan hall ruffalo we haven't gotten to brian cox i know well we'll get to it well then edward cox is a split card and you're like that's good

and then it gives you a series of three cards that are vince mcmahon me yeah right like i'm forgetting what the permutations are but everyone i can probably find them for you um but uh yeah i philip baker hall i think so well cast because he's doing something that is, and I apologize to handwriting analysis, but, you know, pseudoscience. Yeah. And he's just Philip Baker Hall. So you're like, well, he has to be right. Yes. He's like, oh, the K's here.

And you're like, the fucking K's. He knows. Right. And like a lot of this like boils down to some people like, well, the handwriting. And it's like, well, we don't like, is that actually't like is that actually definitive and it's like these things are like opinions right it's that Ruffalo line where like no I get the line of like figured out and he's like all circumstantial right I love the Ruffalo line of like in court yes this cannot be enough right yeah but we're right that's different from we definitely know who did it. But so many times in this movie, you're like all of this fits together and then you go to Philip Baker Hall and it's the K.

Right. And you're back to square one and you either go, I discredit this guy or I discredit my conclusion. Charles Fleischer, Zach Grenier, Philip Baker Hall.

That's the first three. Okay. You know, Roger Rabbit, Zach Grenier, who's a plus Fincher freak. Yeah. Although in this one, he's playing a fairly normal guy.

Usually if you bring him in to play a freak. Elias Koteas, James LeGrosse, Donald Logue. I mean, come on. I mean, I love James LeGrosse. I think that guy is the best. Yeah. He barely in. John Carroll Lynch, Germaine Mulroney, Chloe Sevigny.

You're like, whoa, they allowed a woman to be in this movie? Are we sure? But no, another three amazing. Yeah. Well, you should talk, whoa, they allowed a woman to be in this movie? Are we sure? But no, another three amazing. Yeah. We should talk about Chloe, but like, she just too, just has the look.

That's it. Oh, wow. And then casting by Laurie Mayfield, the legend. But there's a million other rank,

you know, fucking Adam Goldberg for one scene. Jimmy Simpson for one scene. Yeah. John Ennis. Like we said, Gets.

Mr. Show. Yeah. As the rival handwriting. I was going to say, is that John? That's John Ennis. That's John En scene. Yeah. John Ennis. Like we said, Gets. From Mr. Show. Yeah. As the rival handwriting. I was going to say, is that John? That's John Ennis. That's John Ennis.

Yeah. Clay Duvall is really good in that one scene where Gray Smith is basically just like, say it, say that name. And she's like,

no. It was Rick. Yeah. And what's the first thing, jumping way ahead, but what's the first thing she says to him when he walks in?

You got the look. And he goes, what look? And she just goes, never mind, just do your fucking thing. Do your thing. I've met with you guys a bunch.

Right. All right. Now we don't need to go quite as scene by scene at this point, but you know, most of the first chunk of the film is, you know, Ruffalo and Edwards.

Yes. At this point, Avery is, you know, important, but, you know, the cops kind of take over Yes. At this point, Avery is, you know, important, but, you know, the cops kind of take over for a bit. And Gyllenhaal is still

just kind of circling around. Then we have the whole Brian Cox sequence. Okay, I just want to make sure we're not skipping over. Melvin Belly. Yes.

Who was basically like a famous, he was sort of like a Johnny Cochran of the day, right? Like a famous attorney. He was the one who got, what's his name jack ruby acquitted who shot lee harvey oswald well jack ruby died in prison i'm not sure he was the attorney yes

yes uh he also was famously in a star trek as a character called gorgon which they mention in the guy i mean i saw your track and he's like, oh, I should probably just be an actor. He's so fucking funny. But the Jack Ruby thing's important of why the Zodiac would want to talk to him. He's the kind of celebrity lawyer to the criminal stars.

And I gotta call out the coverage there of him whenever he's talking and he's just looking like essentially straight into the camera. The fucking sounds

the lambs cam. It's so good. It's so good. Take care of yourself, Sam. Like, it just, I don't know why he chose to do that, but the eeriness of feeling

personally implicated by the call. He does it in the first Arthur Lee Allen interrogation scene as well. Yes, he does. Which is from being, like, outside the conversation, over the shoulder, to being, like, directly inside it. Like John and Demi. You are the other side of this.

Yeah. And it does feel like it is when people know they are somewhat cornered or at least directly engaged. You know, you're sort of like in the crosshairs.

You know what it might be is that even though it's a misdirect, it's like when you're talking to Zodiac, then you get to look right into the camera. Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? It sounds like you're in a great deal of pain. Yeah. That was my headache. Do you know that he wanted Gary Oldman to do this? I mean, he wanted Gary Oldman to do everything. He always asked Gary Oldman, but he put him in a bunch of prosthetics and was like, this looks silly. We should just hire Brian Cox.

Yeah. And Gary Oldman is like, and I'll never wear prosthetics again. Never. Certainly never to play a world leader. Never to plump up. And Cox looks perfect. You know, the big mane of hair,

the thick tie, the tie as thick as his neck, the tie knot. Oh, it's so good. And that sequence, I think is so crucial one because Cox is such a hilarious showman. Yeah.

This is the only character who thinks he's in a movie. Yes. Yeah. He's like, I'm acting out this scene for the only character who thinks he's in a movie. Right. Who's like, I'm acting out this scene for the ultimate film made about this event. We're watching total bullshit. Like, useless. Some crazy guy called in and was like, I'm crazy!

You know, like, and everyone was hanging on every word. Because it's such good television and it's such good movie watching. In the same way that the letters are good news. Like, it just, the whole thing becomes this, like, red herring of a,

of a nonsense. The whole thing with the fucking, you know, codex, what do you call them? The puzzle letters, you know, is it's like the great mystery of like, there's two unsolved and then one of them gets solved.

And it's like more nonsense. Yeah. More just like, I hope you saw me on the TV. You know, I'm going to shoot some little kid, you know, it's just more like crap.

It's not him being like, by the way, three, nine, five main street. Like, look hope you saw me on the TV. You know, I'm going to shoot some little kid. You know, it's just more like crap. It's not him being like, by the way, 395 Main Street. Like, look me up. Fincher and Graysmith both. I'm Arthur Lee Allen. I got the name from the watch. All right. See you later. You know, confirmed.

Fincher and Graysmith, I think both personally lean towards Arthur Lee Allen. Right. It is apparent. It's obviously the most obvious candidate. Right. And I think Fincher is very convinced by Toski being like that's the one guy where i was like the minute he walked in i was like i like this guy for it like but even that that language is what's so fascinating there's the later part where uh jill and hall finally gets through to donald loge right donald loge the

other guy right rick marshall sorry and he's like you just named my favorite he says potentially potentially you're talking about my favorite suspect right where it's like tusky's like i'm a born to run guy and you know like i'm a nebraska guy myself my analogy i thought of not to like throw out like a simsian metaphor i was like they're talking about it like it's starter pokemon right yeah yeah i i always go yeah definitely which right and there's this weird degree to which like in the second half of this movie where Gyllenhaal is basically going back to all these guys

that he's been kept from. Yeah. And going like, I'm now the guy who's really into Zodiac and all of them are like, I dated her. I don't want to go back.

Yeah, yeah. I did six years on that treadmill, baby. I don't want to do it again. And then all of them like get caught up in the thing again. Yeah.

Where it's like, there's this weird like sport to it for them of like it's fun to have your guy and think you can make it fit. He's like I can't allow you to help. I especially can't tell you

to go talk to Ken Narlow in Napa. N-A-R-L-O-W. You know like it's just like you can see three ways to go about it. Get a warrant

which you won't. Yeah. Or get creative. Right. I mean they're encouraging him in this way that betrays their own obsession with the case. The thing I was going to say is that it would be very easy for Fincher to put his thumb on the scales and say, well, the movie we're making is the movie that argues that Arthur Lee Allen links everything together the best. movie that argues that Arthur Lee Allen links everything together the best.

So I'll just have John Carroll Lynch play all embodiments of the Zodiac, which he doesn't. No. Like sometimes it is his body in those scenes and sometimes it is his voice, but he has multiple guys doing it at different times. I think also I really appreciate how many red herrings he has in the second half of the movie the Rick Marshalls the Sherry Jo Bates the fact that

you go on the again these are like the nooks and crannies like going into all these scenes where they're like we just don't think this is him and it was like well then why did you tell

Paul Avery like what you know and you start to realize that like it could be Arthur Lee Allen and in a regular

Hollywood movie that's what would that's what it would be about. You know, it would be about one guy. And you would be able to feel okay with it being that guy. But I think it's so important that the movie spends so much time on the red herrings,

on the people that it probably isn't. We never see Rick Marshall. We never see him. We never, no one, I know. I kept trying to find, you Google Rick Marshall, he looks like the Zodiac Killer. Really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Part of what's frustrating is you're like, it's, I know, I kept trying to find, you Google Rick Marshall, he looks like the Zodiac Killer. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Part of what's frustrating is you're like, it's, you almost wonder, are these not red herrings? Like, part of what's so frustrating about this reality is like, it's that scene, the Paul Avery scene, where he's like, you almost seem disappointed, where he breaks down to him. He's like, what do we actually verifiably know

that this one guy did? Yeah. And already, they've lost control of the narrative and you're like, we basically created a template where

any crazy person can stand up and do something. Yeah. So, are all these killings connected? Are all the letters connected?

You know? Like, Arthur Lee Allen might be the Zodiac Killer, but also 30% of what we ascribe to the Zodiac Killer might have been copycat. Right.

Which is why the whole taste falls Right. That's where it becomes a ball of yarn that you can't write. We have to talk about the bar scene, maybe the greatest line reading in the history of Robert Downey Jr. This can no longer be ignored. Which I love that he's not immediately like, but he's like, okay.

So you think he sent the second code because he found the first one too easy. This can no longer be ignored. And then maybe the best cut in the history of movies is him trying it and then cut to six of them. Demolished. And shot through the other side of an aqua velvet. It's vodka, gin, basically like Sprite,

like a lemon, lime, and then blue curacao. Right, which I've never liked. I don't like the taste of blue curacao. I mean, yeah, it's not. It's kind of nasty. It's kind of nasty. And drinking. Surprised't like the taste of blue curacao. I mean, yeah. It's kind of nasty. It's kind of nasty. And drinking a Windexy color is also just unpleasant. Well, it's electric blue.

Like, it's not a natural color. I know it's like an orange sort of look. But not even Gatorade has that brightness to it. Yeah, sure. Are you an Aquavelva drinker yourself? I don't drink. Fair enough. Yeah, smart. it's like natural color and has that brightness to it yeah sure are you like wind aqua velva drinker yourself i don't drink uh fair enough yeah well maybe i can make get you a virgin aqua velvet yeah i would absolutely have a virgin water with uh food coloring and uh you know an orange peel and spray it's right yeah sugar with sugar and sugar and water yeah that sounds good

graysmith is gonna still hang back in this movie, but in that bar scene, you do have them explaining like how to crack the code, right? Where it's like, you're looking for kill. Yeah. You're looking for the double L's. Yeah.

And Avery, again, I feel like this is a sequence where Avery is like, I'm smart. He's not saying this, but he's like, I'm smart. And I'm an investigative reporter.

I know how to do this. I don't have the kind of sick brain that looks at one of those squares of codes and is like, where's kill? Yeah. And Gyllenhaal is like, well, it's a serial killer, so we wrote kill. So let's find where kill is. It's another perfect Downey Jr. line delivery of how does one do that?

And that is said with such disdain. Like, clearly Downey Jr. Avery just wants to go to parties where, you know, everyone gets naked at the end of the night, right? Like on a houseboat. Like that's really what he wants to do. Yes.

He doesn't want to solve the Zodiac murders. Right. Then what do we have? We have, well, then it's Irony Sky. Then it's... Kathleen Johns. Yeah. Maybe this, I mean, I think,

I don't know what you guys think. I think the scariest sequence in Zodiac is probably the basement sequence with Fleischer I remember in the theater feeling the most afraid then yes

but this is so like sharply frightening yeah you know the way it's drawn out and then the final thing of like

I'm gonna throw your baby out of the car like but this is one where I swear that's John Carroll Lynch's voice right like this is a scene

where it feels like that. Oh, I think that is him. Yeah. But it's not always him. Well, he had different people play Zodiac in different times. Bob Stevenson is him at some point. John Lacey. He would cast people to match the physical description from every...

Of that incident. Yes. Which is cool. It's great. It's cool. But yeah, the Kathleen Johns thing is so scary. And it feels like a ghost story you're being told in a sleepover. Absolutely. Yeah. No, it has that feeling of like, you know, or a My Favorite Murder episode or something. It's just absolutely... The opening to a slasher movie, you know, right?

I survived, you know, like it's just absolutely terrifying. Well, and that feeling of her standing on the side of the road as the other cars come up, like that cut is terrifying, right? Yeah.

Oh, it's so bad. I'm going to throw your baby out the moving, yeah, right vehicle. And then it's like, okay, you feel the relief of you see a car pulling up. She's alive.

She's alive. She survives alive. We don't know how. But her hands are covered in blood. Yeah. Where's the baby? Where's the baby? And you're so terrified. You're going to hear something awful happen to the baby's alive. We don't know how. She hid the baby. But her hands are covered in blood. Yeah. Where's the baby? Where's the baby? And you're so terrified.

You're going to hear something awful happen to the baby. Yeah. And there's something more upsetting, although there is a relief, obviously. There is, yeah. Of them being like, you hid the baby on the side of the road? Right.

She's like, I thought he was going to come back. Oh, my God. And then you get to Avery taking Grace Smith to the basement and being like, my theory is that might not have been Zodiac. Yeah. And my theory is this one wasn't either because he only wrote the letters that we got after the crime.

You almost look disappointed. Which is already, all these guys are starting to have an unhealthy relationship. You guys may know this. I forget the trivia here. The guy, the coffee guy at the Chronicle with the glasses. Who is that? That obviously was a real guy, right? But who's the actor?

Yeah, is that like the real guy or something? I just love that he keeps popping up and he has... Oh, I don't know. The mean lines or whatever. He's really cool. Yeah. And then what do we got? You know, then Avery getting the bloody...

The bloody shirt. ...shirt and freaking out. And you're kind of like, that's about an hour plus into the movie and you're like, oh, he's lost. Yeah. That's when he gets the gun I want a gun yeah but he's also now getting really into being like one of the main characters of this narrative he goes to fuck you know that that's where

Ray Smith goes on the first date with Chloe Sevigny and is like yeah he's going to Riverside or something I forget what that is and she's like it's like near LA and he's like oh I don't something i forget what that is and she's like it's like near la and he's like oh i don't think he knows he's that far away and she's like uh-huh and he's like i guess i should call him and like there's no cell phones her line reading of like is this some skeezy ploy to get me back to your house i love that

and he's clearly like huh like like it's like, you're like, this man is somehow had children, but he's never fucked. I don't know. Like he reproduced or whatever, you know, someone was just like, just sit there and we're going to kiss and don't worry. It'll all,

it'll all work itself out. And he was like, oh, okay. Like, cause it's almost crazy that he has a kid. Yes. And the others,

do they have, does Tosca have children? Like, we don't see them. Yeah. Right. He, we don't see them, but he's like, I, I, he's like, I know boss, does Tosca have children? Yeah. We don't see them. Yeah. Right. We don't see them, but he's like,

I, he's like, I know boss, I've got three daughters of my own. Right. He does. That's right. They tell him at some point,

like go on vacation. Right. Go to Candlestick. Yeah. Go to Candlestick. See a movie. Yeah. I mean,

you should fucking go to Candlestick. There's the moment where they all get on the plane. Like everyone from every city. Right. You know, Zach Grenier's there. Who's the moment where they all get on the plane, like everyone from every city, right? You know, Zach Grenier's there, who's the justice guy. And they go to Riverside. Who's that guy who plays the old cop? He is incredible.

I love that. I mean, he's one of those guys. He's just one of those guys, but he's incredible. Who's basically like, John Mayen is that guy. Okay. And he's,

I think he's also in la confidential yes yeah he's in that he's the he's like the commissioner in that he's like gentlemen and he's like yeah zodiac zodiac zodiac but like i actually like this other guy for it and isn't that how they get arthur lee allen right like he's the one who leads into Arthur Lee Allen. No, Arthur Lee Allen, they get on him because Armstrong interviews the old roommate of... Right, the guy with the glasses. Yeah, the guy with the glasses. Right, right, right, right.

Yeah. Like, the roommate of Arthur's brother, I want to say? Something like that. Something like that. And he goes fishing with him, and he's like, I'm gonna call myself Zodiac, and I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna do all these things on January 1st. Because it's that thing, it's that sequence where they're like, now we're opening up the floodgates to all

the nuts. And you have that sequence of all these people that are interviewing. The lady who's like, could be Paul Avery. Right. And he's like, okay, yeah, we're looking into that one. Yeah. My ex-boyfriend used to cut people's hands off. He has to be the Zodiac. And they say he didn't cut anyone's hands off. But then there's like the four months later, seven months later, whatever he is.

This has been fruitless. And then the last interview is him throwing out the thing about the fishing and telling the story and they're like, this is the first thing we've heard in months that sounds like it might be something. He leads them to that. But it's the open call basically that gets them to Arthur. As an audience member you're like, you're still,

especially the first time, you're still in this mode of like, yes, we're gathering evidence. I'll all of this yeah yeah and later you realize you know we're being shown dead end after dead end for a reason because that is what this became but yes then the arthur lee allen scene is so well acted one because john carroll lynch is like fucking oscar worthy in this movie oh my god he's incredible and to the way that ruffalo edwards and uh codeus play the sort of like holy shit

this guy's basically admitting to being a Zodiac killer yes right yeah where he's like no I would never

kill kids anyway this is my Zodiac launch and the way and the way he like crosses his leg and we see the boot you know

and then you see him see the boot yeah and then you see him see that he saw the boot right it's like yeah

and his weird like gentleness like the weird way he see and then you see him see that he saw the boots right it's like yeah and his weird like gentleness like the weird way he talks and fincher said in the commentary that he asked him to do it one way where you where you just are totally innocent yeah right like you you can't believe they're even asking you that's morbid like you know that kind of exactly and fincher said he was like the more innocent he played it, the more he looked guilty. Right. The more he looked like he absolutely was the Zodiac Killer. My only question I ask this, because I know you have landed on an answer for this, David.

Okay. Do you put Ruffalo in lead or supporting? Do you have this movie with two supporting nominations? I have the three boys are the three leads, I think. You have to do it that way. Gyllenhaal, Ruffalo, Downey all have to just be considered leads. Okay. Because the supporting cast is so massive in this movie. So then you give John Carroll Lynch the supporting. I do, but I'm willing to hear basically any argument for any performance in this movie.

I think they're all good. He and Ruffalo are the two I like jam on all day and all night. I mean, Ruffalo is an incredibly rewarding actor. Like returning to a Ruffalo or the two I like jam on all day and all night. I mean, Ruffalo is an incredibly rewarding actor. Like, returning to a Ruffalo performance is usually really rewarding. Yeah. Like, there's a lot of depth to his work. And that's why I watch Avengers Age of Ultron all the time. I had some.

It was obvious. I had to make a joke like that. Um, no. We have to move into the final act of the movie, which is the Gyllenhaal act uh and just shout out any scenes from that that we like basically the fleischer scene yes i but like and the diner scene in the fleischer scene the i walked it scene and the fleischer scene are the sort of crucial and the paul the avery boat scene yeah as the toad for Avery. As we said, he's haunting the movie at that point. He's haunting the movie at that point.

He's very the dude in that scene as well. Is he naked? Do you think he's kind of like balls out and we're sort of not seeing that? Yes,

absolutely. There's that one quick cutaway to him watching the news at the bar with the emphysema tank still smoking. Yes,

where he's the library line or whatever is there.. Yes. So good. The library line or whatever is there. Yes, yes, yes. I think that the Gyllenhaal part, what I love about it is that he goes down

the Rick Marshall rabbit hole. Yes. Like, I just love and that the culmination is the Charles Fleischer scene. Yes. Like, the culmination of that

is that I'm in a dark cellar in the middle of nowhere. But like, what I love about that scene is nothing might be happening. No, Fincher is using full Hitchcock to do a scene that is entirely

subjective in his head. This might just be a weird guy. Yeah. This guy's paranoia has become so out of control that he thinks he's in a horror movie all the time.

He's definitely a weird guy. Well, he's definitely a weird guy. He's a silent film projectionist and he saved all of his records from fucking 30 years ago. But like, when Gyllenhaal's like,

doors locked, you know, and you're like, oh my God. And like Fleischer's reaction is kind of like, yeah, you know, that's okay. I got it. Yeah. And you're like, is he enjoying that he made him feel bad

or is he just kind of realizing that this guy is freaking out because he thinks about the Zodiac all day? Any man wearing a toupee that obvious is a fucking freak. Yes, but yes, we need to start wrapping up Griffin. So is there anything else we have to talk about with the Zodiac movie?

Well, Cleo Duvall brings him back to Arthur Lee Allen after basically spending years in like cul-de-sacs. Right, because she's the one who's like, the name Lee is who I remember of this weirdo at this party. He's begging her to connect his previous theories. But Chloe Sevigny has that heartbreaking final line. And he has the birthday, the same birthday. That's the other Lee Allen thing. Right.

Oh, yes. It was his birthday. It was her birthday to Brian Cox's house. Which is sort of like the first totally proprietary piece of information that Graysmith gets.

Yeah. When he's starting to realize someone needs to write this book. Yeah. It might as well be me. That's the thing that sets him off is that he almost gets there. Like,

like, um, Belai's, uh, maid gives him the information about, I have to kill today. Today is my birthday. He gets that information.

He goes to Zach Grenier and he goes, I just need to check a date. And he's the one that goes, it's, it's fingerprints and handwriting. Yeah. Stick to the evidence. Right. You know, and then the next thing you know, What do you actually have? He's, he's the one that goes, it's fingerprints and handwriting. Stick to the evidence.

And then the next thing you know. What do you actually have? He's in all those cul-de-sacs. Because he can't prove it. He's so close to Arthur Lee Allen right there. But he doesn't go down it because he's like, oh, I can't prove it. And all these other guys are like, I gave it up. It doesn't fit together.

This way lies madness. And then he comes knocking on that door. They say, please don't. And then he comes knocking on that door. They say, please don't. And then once he gives them the one new piece of info, they're like, I will tell you a thing. I've always found it.

That was in the, that was in the, the Vallejo files, you know, like you can see in Ruffalo's face, just that like frustration. It's like the flicker of like, no,

I can't, I can't, I can't do this anymore. And the scene they first meet is after the Dirty Harry premiere. Ruffalo walking out and then Graceman finally tracking him down

and being like, we're the two characters who are supposed to be working together. That's right. This whole movie. And Ruffalo's line is, it's over.

They're already making movies about it. Right. Oh my God. Which is so good. And then you have like the longest time cut, I feel. Well,

then that's when there's the montage that also was cut out of the original movie, where it's just a black screen for two minutes while music plays. Which is great. It's amazing. It's so good. And it feels like,

Fincher's like, I'm telling you the time is moving, but it's also like the 60s have died. Yeah. That's how I feel about that musical montage. That's very, very spot on. He's like,

we're moving out of the, and like, this is a time of innocence dying in America as well. And it feels strange how quickly you're moving, even with the audio clips from news broadcasts, but you're like, that's what happened. The production design of the Chronicle changes. The typewriters change. Yeah, the typewriters.

No, oh God. Fincher changes the kind of typewriter they use because he realized by the mids, mid-70s, they were using a different kind of Skelectric or whatever. What about Sevigny? The scene where she basically calls quits on their marriage

and you haven't been checking in on them a ton. Yeah. And you're sort of like, this is such a disastrous first date, but she's kind of charmed by his guilelessness. Yeah. And he's like a cutie pie. And you assume at some point it got better

and she got to engage with him as a real person. And then's like a cutie pie and you assume like at some point it got better and she like got to engage with him as a real person. And then her scene where she's just like, we've just, our first date never ended. Yeah. This has just been

one long first date of me basically waiting for you to like solve the Zodiac crimes. Right. And like engage with me as a human being and it's never going to happen.

And also weekly, someone, the Zodiac, calls in the middle of the night and just breathes into the phone. And you're just accepted this because you're so obsessed. Like, that's not going to dissuade you from stopping. Right.

Whereas when he's a single father, he's got his kid on the couch and they're watching the Brian Cox interview. And he's like, change the channel. This is like too upsetting for you. Well, he sticks with it for a bit. And then when it gets really gnarly, he's like, okay. He's got that. A little bit of a bit versus now. Kill those kids. They're like at the dinner tablely he's like okay. He's got a little bit of a fear versus now. Kill those kids.

They're like at the dinner table and he's like Zodiac calling again. Like he's not even really processing how much this is interfering with his true psyche. He looks like you say trapped in the movie as well. He just looks like he's asleep. I've just got to see him. I gotta look him in his eyes. And then he does that. I've got to know that it's him. Yeah, it's so true.

Gyllenhaal's performance gets into this space where it's like those eyes, man. Those Donnie Darko eyes. My God. He's really good. I mean, he's really good. It's so... I just think that the climax of the movie

is he looks Arthur Lee Allen in the eyes. And does he get something out of that? We don't really know. We don't really know. It's crucial for us. Yeah. And then Jimmy Simpson's like, this guy.

It's this guy. And then the movie's like, Arthur Lee Allen died before they could really figure anything out. The DNA never matched and uh you know you're you're trapped in hell forever goodbye roll the credits like credits are like yes no no yes kind of maybe goodbye they're like they keep but fucking pulling you in both directions i have to say though i think you gotta hand it to him that when he plays hurdy Gurdy Man again, you know what I mean? He is giving you an emotional catharsis. Yes, yes.

And I think, I don't know if I was saying this before when we were actually taping or not, but it's like, if it makes emotional sense, then the logic starts to fall away. Like, you can say that this movie doesn't have, you know, like a resolution or any of those kinds of things, and it doesn't, but it has one shining moment at the end yeah where majeau identifies arthur lee allen yes and most definitive thing the most definitive thing that can happen can

happens and that music plays and it just says like the answer could still be out there you know like it's like it could still happen and then like you said it also like the first time Hardy Gertie man is played you're like oh that's like a good usage of this song clever that's like carrying over to the scene yeah and then when he uses it the second time I'm like you have

forever transformed this song I will never now not listen to this song and think about like the frustration of being like we're never going to fucking catch Arthur Lee Allen. We didn't even talk about David Shire's music. David Shire, one of the great composers of all time. All time. Did one of my

favorite film scores for the Taking Film 123. He would do these jazz scores. He wanted no score. He was like only pop music, just set it in the time. That's right, yeah. And they were cutting it and they were like, a couple of these sequences, you kind of need mood setting. And they used the conversation score as temp score. Oh, they did.

Another great David Shire score. And then they went to him and he wrote 40 minutes of stuff. Oh, yeah. Which is incredible. Because he was probably in his 70s at that point. He's still alive. David Shire is still with us. 86 years old now. The fact that there is so much

pop music used so well and recontextualized in a way that makes it feel so ominous. Oh, yeah. That when he switches to the score, you're like, this is telling me to pay attention in a different way. Yeah. There's some shift here of what's happening in this scene.

And sometimes it's emotional and sometimes it's tension. Sometimes it's just underlining information. Sometimes it's scoring squirrels. I rewatched that scene so good. Obviously the trailer. It's just freaky. Yeah. But I rewatch,

I like rewound and rewatch the John Carroll Lynch reaction to Gyllenhaal clocking him in the hardware store. Yeah, sure. And I swear to God, you go by it frame by frame and it's like,

it actually doesn't look like his face is moving at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somehow his expression changes entirely. He turns to a statue, yeah. And you cannot clock, like, where muscles are shifting.

Yeah. And it's just inscrutable and it's like, for this guy in that moment, on one hand, a man I associate with being like a Cuddle bear actor from Fargo. Yeah.

Drew Carey show. Yes. But you're like, if you're a gray Smith and that's another moment where he basically cuts to, he's looking straight at you through the lens. Yeah. You're like, well,

at first you're like, well, that face he's giving me is the resolution I want. Yeah. Even if I can't prove it, he's acknowledging it. And then the longer you look at him and you're like, am I projecting something onto him?

Yeah, right. You're going to the cycle. A hundred percent. Right. Yeah. Like, actually, is this all coming from me? Blah, blah, blah. Griffin, let's just play the box office game.

Come on. Let's just do it. March 2nd, 2007. Movies body by wild hogs at the box office. It just fucking ran the table March 2007. Remember wild hogs? I do not remember wild hogs. Tim Allen, William H. Macy,

Martin Lawrence, John Travolta, the big four. Yeah. They're on motorcycles. We don't need to get into that. $175 million. $40 million.

It was a huge hit. I don't ever remember this movie. It annihilated Zodiac. Zodiac was humiliated just eating its garbage. And then fucking Leonidas comes in a week later and kicks all of them.

What does? 300. 300. 300, right. A weirdly robust march. Number three at the box office is a movie that would probably never get dumped in February. Now, it's a comic book film.

One of your favorite actors. Oh, it's Ghost Rider. Nicolas Cage's Ghost Rider. Oh, Ghost Rider. With Pete Fonda. Yeah, that was dumped and still ended up making a lot of money. Made a lot of money. Better than Zodiac. Again, made well over

$100 million. Pretty bad. You think better? Oh, no. Okay, you thought it was bad. Than Zodiac, yeah, yeah. Fun trash,

but objectively bad. Number four, it's just funny to think this is what's up against Zodiac. Number four, kids book adaptation. Bridget Terabithia.

What? Yeah. Anna Safiya Robb. He's a freak. I'm a freak. I can't believe you guys know this. Hutcherson. I? Yeah. Anna Safiya Robb. He's a freak. I'm a freak. I can't believe you guys know this. Hutcherson. I'm the rapper

Grace Smith of Box Office. Number five. It's ruined every relationship in my life. About obsession, but a bad one. Number 12 is another. Number five.

Oh, is it number 23? The number 23. With James Carrey. I nailed all of those on first guess. Did I not? You sure did. My God. Have you seen the number 23? Did I not? You sure did. My God.

Have you seen the number 23? I have not. Not very good. It's funny to think of that movie existing in theaters at the same time. Zodiac is like, let's think about this true crime

and Jim Carrey is like, I can't stop thinking about that dang number 23. I'm going to write it on my chest. It's so weird how it keeps popping up. I'm going to play the saxophone while I'm not sleeping.

You also have Norbit. Yep. The movie that cost Eddie Murphy an Oscar this Oscar season. Like, you know. Music and lyrics, underrated Hugh Jackman, Ron and Tom, very cute film. Yeah. Opening new this week and completely bombing. The sort of comedy drama Black Snake Moan.

Oh, yeah. With Christina Ricci. Wait, that opened the same weekend? It sure did. That's another blank check movie. Yeah. And Timberlake Christina Ricci. Wait, that opened the same weekend? It sure did. That's another blank check movie. Yeah, and Timberlake and Samuel Jackson.

Who was that again? That's Craig Brewer. Craig Brewer. It's his follow-up to Hustle and Flow. Right, of course. Paramount buys it and guarantees his next movie.

Right. And number nine is Reno 911 Miami. And his next movie is I'm Gonna Chain a Woman to... Yes. Got it. Okay.

Yeah. No, but that was the deal. It was like, we want your movie so badly, also anything you want next. Sucker punch, yeah. It's just like, you know,

so we're going to stick needles in the eyes of young women. Right. Whatever the... Jesus Christ. What do you have to say about 9-1-1 Miami?

God, I love this industry, you guys. I love it. It's so good. It's rewarding. We're doing great things. Always find success and rewards.

Never been better. I think Reno 9-1 Reno 911 Miami is underrated. One of the funniest movie titles of all time. That it's another city. That's funny. It is funny. It's not like an overbearing, annoying joke. Yeah, it's good.

It's funny. And number 10, the completely forgotten, but perfectly watchable political thriller, Breach. Which? Billy Ray movie. Good movie. Low key. He fucks all day and all night.

It's his follow, his follow up to Shattered Glass, speaking of Hayden. Chris Cooper is unbelievable in that movie. What? I gave it another spin recently because I hadn't watched it

in 15 years. What's crazy about that list is that I don't know any of those movies. And you were like a grown up at this time. You were seeing films. Black Sigmund I remember.

Just because I was like, what's happening? But I, you know, do you know what I mean? Like, I did watch it. You were seeing films. Black Snake Moan, I remember. Just because I was like, what's happening? But I, you know, I did watch it. I saw it, but I was just out of morbid curiosity. 100%. But I don't know any of those movies and yet they all beat... Zodiac

opened to number four or whatever. No, it opened to number two. Does Black Snake Moan ultimately outgrow Zodiac? I think maybe not just because Black Snake Moan didn't do well at all. Sure. Yeah.

But, uh... Zodiac opens to 12. Yeah. How do you know that? I mean, I know you do this on the show all the time, but seeing it in person is pretty cool.

It opened to 13. It made 33 domestic. It made 84 total. You know, basically made its budget back worldwide, so it made 33 domestic. It made 84 total. Whoa. Basically made its budget back worldwide. So it was a loser. But then I think it did quite well on video as well. Leslie, I get some satisfaction out of the fact that I think people who

listen to this show sometimes think that I'm on my devices during this. No, I can say he's not. And anytime anyone's in the room. Say what you say, which is, it looks weird watching you do it.

Well, then I'm like, kids movie, and you're like, bitch of Terramithia. I'm just like, I've never made a movie of that. Oh my God.

It's just like coming out of me. My God. Wild hogs. I'm just like, what? America was for a moment captured by the idea of middle-aged men

riding motorcycles into the heartland and having comic things happen to them. I want to see that movie. Yes, we've told that story on the podcast before. Have you guys watched the commentary with James Ellroy for this movie? No. No.

Whoa. It's unbelievable. Wait, is it just Ellroy? It's Ellroy. It'd be funny if it was just him being like, I love this movie. Here we go. There's the one that's Gyllenhaal and a bunch of the crew. There's the one that's Fincher solo. I've listened

to both of those. So he's on the one with the crew and Gyllenhaal and Downey. And he introduces himself as like, he's like, I'm James Elroy, king of American crime fiction. It's so good.

He also says he's hung like a mule. Oh, does that mean himself. Oh, about himself. Yeah. About himself. Yeah. James Elroy, who by the way, looks like if Mr.

Clean, like joined the nation of Islam, but it was white. Like, it's not like you see James Elroy and you're like, that guy fucks, you know, with a bull moose penis.

Like here is James Elroy. Exactly. Yeah. He's always talking. He's very obsessed with, with Ruffalo's hair as well. You know, he's got a great hair, but it is. Cause you think Elroy is Exactly. Yeah. He's always talking. He's very obsessed with Ruffalo's hair as well. He's got great hair. Because you think Elroy's like, God, if only I had that

mop on my head. Exactly. I have six extra wives on my Wikipedia page. It's so great to see. It's really interesting because of, you know, obviously everything he's written, but also what happened with his mother and hearing his take on the Zodiac

and just what an absolute narcissistic loser. Zodiac was. Zodiac was. You know, like that this is just like the banality of evil. Yeah. You know. That's the thing about Zodiac.

It's like he's a weird nerd. Yeah. He's not even good at this. No. He invented the template for so many things in fucking serial killing yeah but like by being a weird freak and who would mostly write and be like i saw the exorcist hilarious comedy or what you know like shit like that yeah you know like he's a troll he's a poster yeah right yeah he's a fucking troll and he killed five people or maybe

35 like you know probably just five, but who knows? Yes. Like, Leslie, thank you for coming. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This was amazing. I feel like we could, honestly, could have talked

15 more episodes. The problem with Zodiac is we could talk about it. It's an endless while. But we have to cut ourselves off so we don't fall prey into the trap that destroyed these men.

Absolutely. We've also been talking for a very, you know, very healthy amount of time, which is good. Exactly two hours and 30 minutes. Leslie, I said to you, and I've said been talking for a very, you know, very healthy amount of time, which is good. Exactly two hours and 30 minutes. Leslie, I said to you, and I've said it on mic many times, but it's what I want out of Star Wars, the promise of your show. Thank you.

You were the one doing it, but the idea of the newness and unexplored territory in the Star Wars sandbox. And as you guys know, you know, before the prequels, which I know you guys… Have covered. Have covered. I was kind of hoping… You unfortunately know we have covered. You I know you guys have covered. Have covered. I was kind of hoping. You unfortunately know we have covered it. You unfortunately know

that we have covered it. I want you guys to go back and do it again. You want us to start it over? Wow. That would really make a lot of people unhappy. Burn it down.

But it is, we were saying before, it is the ultimate blank check movie. It is. The Phantom Menace. The ultimate blank check project, especially those three movies.

No check blanker than that. No, no, no, especially the idea of him releasing them and everyone being like, we're horrified by this. And he's like, I'm getting,

I'll get to work on the sequel. I just love him so much. I'll see you later. I love him too. So George, are you listening to the fans complaints? A little bit. Maybe the weirdest amount I could listen.

Very tiny amount. Yeah, right. I wish we had more time to talk about George Lucas because I... Well, come on back sometime. I would love to come back and do that. We'll think of something else for you to come on and talk about. But thank you for joining us. But no, thank you for having me.

I love this movie so much. You did amazing. Okay, good. You did amazing. Jesus. Take us out. I have to me. I love this movie so much. You did amazing. Okay, good. You did amazing. Jesus. Take us out. I have to pee. Okay, I need to poop,

so it's going to be a race against time. Can I finish this before David finishes peeing? Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty

for our social media and helping to produce the show. Thank you to Alex Barron and AJ McKeon for our editing. JJ Birch for our research. Lane Montgomery and the Great American Owl for our theme song, Pat Reynolds, Joe Bowen for our artwork.

I have to go to the bathroom so badly. You can go to blankcheckpod.com for links to some real nerdy shit. I don't want to say shit. It's a little triggering to me at this moment, including our Patreon Blank Check special features where we do commentaries on film series. Right now we're doing the Pierce Brosnan Bond movies. We also just have the

fucking Fincher music video episode that just came out. Tune in next week for Curious Case of Benjamin Button with Richard Lawson. And as always, I did it. I fucking,

I did it. I finished it and David's still in there. This is like physically painful. Okay, I'm going to read a thing while David's still in there. My former roommate,

Chris Wilmot, who grew up in the Bay Area, sent this to me, and I think this is relevant. He said, I know you all have probably already recorded your Zodiac app, but had to share this ink review I saw while working at an art supply store that's too weirdly specific to not be written by the real Robert Graysmith. I've been drawing in pen and ink since I was a child and for 15 years was a political cartoonist and for the last 30 years, a best-selling author of books, illustrating them all with Gillette pen points and UltraDraw ink. It is permanent, lightfast, and if you had to, you could draw in glass with it if you could. It is so much denser and richer than other inks on the market that the day they stop making UltraDraw ink, which I use with a dip pen

and radiograph pens, I will switch to another media. Other inks thin out. When you erase your pencil lines, this ink is eternal. Love it. Robert Graysmith, author of Zodiac

and other nonfiction books. Thank you, Robert. Robert, are you okay? No.