Blaze Your Own Trail - Navigating Midlife Crisis & Personal Growth With Anna Urnova

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Blaze Your Own Trail podcast. My name is Jordan Mendoza. I'm your host, and I've got a very special guest with me today. Her name is Anna Urnova, and I'm going to have her tell you a little bit about who she is and what she does today. Hi, Jordan. Thank you for having me on the show. Well, I am a career coach, and I help mid-Korea mid-life men who are stuck, maybe in crisis, stagnant, unhappy where they are, find, reinvent themselves at Mid-Korea, and have a great second

Starting point is 00:00:35 and third act. Awesome. Love that. Love that. We're going to really dive into some more deep context into how you're helping people some tips and then, of course, exactly what you do towards the end of the show. And my favorite part of the show is really this beginning part where the audience is going to get to know you, Anna, a little bit better.

Starting point is 00:00:55 So we're going to take a rewind. So if you can share with the audience, you know, where were you born and raised? So we're thinking, you know, adolescent years, elementary, middle, and high school. So where were you born and raised? And then, you know, what kind of kid were you? What type of things did you get into? Were you into more academics? Were you into sports?

Starting point is 00:01:13 Were you creative? I'd love to just get some deeper context. Wow. That's great. I'm actually pushing my clients to do that. Think where did it all start? How was the origin of that? Well, my personal life story is.

Starting point is 00:01:27 is very confusing because I was born in Soviet Union and my family was built of five lineages. And I had a mother who was half German, half English. Her parents ended up in Soviet Union after the war. And they basically, no one else had a mother like me. And then on my father's side, I have Russian and Jewish lineages as well. And on my mother's side, there's also Irish. There was always an Irish like in the English, I guess. So honestly, you said what you were as a child, looking back, I think I was happy to a degree,

Starting point is 00:02:08 but I also very, very confused. Starting with like my grandfather's story about the war didn't fit with many of the peers' stories about the war. My grandfather wore a different uniform and he were English uniform and he told, you know, stories of Dunkirk and I. other places, whereas no one knew the stories around my peers and so on. So that was a very confused one. And to add to that confusion also, the family wasn't doing like easy.

Starting point is 00:02:38 It wasn't easy for my family, let's say. There was a number of dysfunctions and losses. And I actually was sent to live far, far, many, many, many, thousands miles away as a child, as a nine-year-old. So I spent time in Asia as well, away from my parents, living with people I did know. And that was a very valuable experience. So I would say confused is one, but also I'm just looking at this trail blazing, like blaze your own trail. I think that was, I had to do that.

Starting point is 00:03:07 I had to do that because my family couldn't provide, you know, the role model that would help me entirely. And my environment was also, I just knew I'm an outlier, wherever you look. I was good academically. You know, I had great friends, but I was just an outlier. So I think this blazing my own trail kind of happened to me even before I become aware, you know, know that having to make my own choices so just say yeah so i hope that answered your question yeah no it definitely answered it and appreciate the context there so how did the the journey to asia happen one and then you know where in asia did you go and and then you said it was a life-changing experience

Starting point is 00:03:45 so i'd love to just get some some of that storyline of what happened when you were there how it changed your life and everything okay that was um that was actually uh interesting story and the kind of story I would never ever share or even mention, not just in a professional circle, of course, not publicly like now, but even to my closest friends, this sort of story I would never even mention. And then it's actually only about seven years ago, I've decided that I want to go there and I want to see where I went. Well, it was in Central Asia right now. Back then, they were part of Soviet Union. Now it's a separate country.

Starting point is 00:04:28 It was Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. It's basically the border with Afghanistan. I mean, I was sent there as a child, and I didn't know. It was like completely out of context, like a different reality. Now I understand that it was also Muslim, even though the Soviet Union didn't endorse religions, but undercover. People practiced, and I actually was introduced to, you know, Islam as a religion because I watched certain rituals, which I did not understand at the time. I do now, like for instance, men gathering in the tea houses,

Starting point is 00:05:02 and women not allowed in. And we as children, we thought, why not go to the tea house? And then we said, no, no, stay out. And now I know this is where they practiced undercover their belief systems, which is an amazing experience. Yeah. And I was just completely taken out of my context and thrown into environment, which was completely unfamiliar.

Starting point is 00:05:25 And that's what happened. Yeah. And so seven years ago, I decided I just, I have to go and see it. And by the way, my father took me there on the train, which took a week. We started on Monday and we arrived on Friday. So I thought I have to take the train. I have to take this trip exactly the same way because otherwise I wouldn't understand what the child, what the nine-year-old child saw.

Starting point is 00:05:53 And to be honest, Jordan, when things. Things happening, very, very scary things happening to you as a child, you tend to block them out. So you just don't remember anything. I didn't remember how I was put on the train. I didn't remember how I said goodbye to my mother, who was, by the way, pregnant at the time with my sister. And then I just didn't remember any of that. So I said, I have to re, you know, re-orchestrate that journey. And I did that.

Starting point is 00:06:18 And my husband, I don't know how, but he led me. So all the way from Berlin, I went back to Moscow and I took the train. to Douchon Bear where I went, and I boarded the train on Monday, and I got there on a Friday. And wow, was it an eye-opening a trip? And then I spent some time there visiting the places that I remembered from my childhood, which of course changed, but some I didn't, haven't changed at all. And I was just curiously, it wasn't like a trauma thing. It wasn't like a, I intended to go there with curiosity to see what this girl encountered

Starting point is 00:06:53 and how what the kind of adventure it was. Some of it was very scary and traumatizing, of course, but some of that was very exciting. And then I flew back to Berlin from there. And then I actually wrote a story to myself. I didn't share it with anyone, but I just wanted to validate what's happened. And it was incredibly healing experience of owning my own story, right?

Starting point is 00:07:15 And let's say after that, I could actually start using it more in my work and in my life, because it became a resource. Before it was like a closed door, you know, somewhere in the attic. You never go there. Something horrible happened.

Starting point is 00:07:29 After that, I started actually sourcing, sourcing from that experience. For instance, I realized, well, I'm incredibly resilient and I tend to find love anywhere I go. And how back then, you know, and also the world takes care of me. I realized that, yeah, though I was alone and scared as I don't know what, but the world took care of me,

Starting point is 00:07:51 and people who didn't know me took care of. me. And it actually made me discover a world as a bigger world, bigger than my family of origin, as a very friendly, very welcoming place. And funny enough, for instance, podcasting, I just want to draw parallel. Podcasting, this is not like easy thing. Like it's anxiety provoking. You speak to people out there. You don't know who will hear this story, right? So when I was invited by my first podcast, I thought, oh my God, this is scary. I mean, who are these people? I don't know who I'm speaking to. I actually took myself back and think, remember how the world, the bigger world is a very friendly place to you. It gives you this big warm embrace. It is like, it supports you. It loves you. It wants to

Starting point is 00:08:34 see it grow. And that may be, yeah, of course, of course. And it's, and that made me believe, yeah. So that's the growing experience. That's my next step. So that's just an example, how this story, which of course was a big trauma, but how then I owned it and now becomes an incredible source for me. Yeah. Well, I think it's a powerful thing when you go back and kind of relive something again, you know, because it's not always easy to confront the past, you know, but it's important, you know, it's important so that you can put it behind you and not dwell

Starting point is 00:09:10 on it and not have it holds you back, you know. So it's pretty cool that you went there and had such a great experience, you know, learn some new things about yourself, I'm sure, and it's great that you're also was like, hey, yeah, go, you know, go do this, go do this thing. I'm sure he's probably like, well, if I tell her, no, she's going to probably do it anyway. So just tell her, yes, and just go do it? So I'm glad that happened. And so talk a little bit about, you know, after you return from, you know, that journey, you spent some time there. You return back, do you return back home at that point? Or what happens next? Yeah, I did. But it wasn't, it wasn't the same home because I, I, I, there was losses. I lost.

Starting point is 00:09:52 my grandfather, for instance, who died when I was away. And then my sister was already a five-year-old child who I never met. Well, I met her a couple of times and spoke to her on the phone, but I haven't known her. Which is also a loss, you know, and then I had another sister, which was great. But what I realized recently, it really was a different family, was a different experience already. It was not like going back. And it was also important is that it was already, it was already the end of the 80s and the 90s and the world started open up. And because what's important, what was important part of me growing up in my family, the way it was, the way it was, the way it was, was that we had big cutoffs and separations from sides of the family.

Starting point is 00:10:43 Like, for instance, my mother had family in Germany. We were completely cut off from there. My grandmother, my mother's mother, never, she had four. four children before she had my mother and she never seen those children after the war, never ever. So they never seen her. And she never met them. And that was a heartbreak in.

Starting point is 00:11:05 So my grandfather had family in the UK, for instance, mostly in Liverpool, but also all over the world. There was a big Irish family that then spread all over the world. And we were disconnected from them, cut off, complete cut off, you know, especially internet wasn't there. So we couldn't Zoom. So it was a very, very deep trauma of cutoff. And what was happening when I came back from my very weird journey, kind of journey,

Starting point is 00:11:34 I could not even share with my peers because they wouldn't understand why, why did you go? So we kind of had a story. Many people believed we went away and then they came back because my family was in the military because you know, military, they travel around and whatever. But honestly, there was a kind of thing you had always kind of almost like a sports. have an undercover story there, like, because people just wouldn't, wouldn't even understand. But what was happening was in the end of the 80s and beginning of 90s is like, of course, the Soviet Union was opening up and then the war collapsed in Berlin, right?

Starting point is 00:12:07 And we could reconnect back to the family that was left behind. Of course, people died already, like my grandfather died, my grandmother died. Great grandmother died. So a lot of people died. But there were people who still, for instance, I met my grandfather's two younger brothers in Liverpool. I went there. And that was the first time they've ever met someone from his side of the family. So it was incredible. So I came there and they would like serve me dinner and they would just sit around and look at me how I eat. And I was like, okay, hello. And there's like, okay,

Starting point is 00:12:42 tell us about Richard. Last time he saw Richard was when they joined the army, I mean, going to war. And they were like, he was a teenager, basically, this uncle, right? This brother of my. my grandfather. And can you imagine that? That was really such an incredible, and the fact that I could go back and meet those people, then there was a family in Germany as well. Again, meeting people, people who, you know, haven't seen outside of the family for years, right, for decades. So that was an incredible healing experience of reconnecting back to the side, to the side of you as well, right, that you've never known, you've never connected. And to me personally, that was, I believe that's an important story of my life. It's a very, it's a very life forming story of my life, which is about

Starting point is 00:13:29 connecting to the side of you that is unknown. Maybe it's kept in the shadow. And I work with midlife by the way, and midlife is believed to be the part where we have to own our shadow, because we live like in the light, half of life, but then midlife, we have to, we have to incorporate the shadow. Otherwise, we will not be our true self, so to say. So of course, I did know it as a I did know it as a teenager when I was reconnecting. Then I went to study in the UK. It was very important. And now I live in Germany.

Starting point is 00:14:00 So I really feel like it's very important to me to collect all those parts of myself, all those pieces of the puzzle and pull them together, no matter how traumatic and scary it is. And of course, to be honest, these pieces of the puzzle, they often at war with each other. I mean, the nations were at war with each other. It's not easy to incorporate them. But I know that in me, somehow, they're at peace and they're part of the big, you know, whole. So that's really a story of my life.

Starting point is 00:14:33 And that's what I also help my clients with as I realized it became a mission as well, right? Mess into mission. Yep. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, no, I think that, you know, whenever you can connect with family, especially family that you haven't met, you know, like my background with my dad. with my dad, I didn't meet him until I was 12. So I had 12 whole years of life and, and, you know, grew up with my mom and, you know, my stepdad. And he was an alcoholic, so

Starting point is 00:15:01 wasn't a great father figure. And then at 12, you know, my mom's like, hey, do you want to meet your dad? And I said, yeah, when are we going? She's like, no, you're going. And I flew from Oregon to, you know, Washington, D.C. And he's from the Philippines. And so I met this Filipino guy and his wife and my other brothers and my grandparents. and it was just a summer of, like you said, just kind of learning, asking so many questions, just not really knowing anything and just kind of being a brand new. It almost felt like your first day on a job, you know, where you just go and you're just like, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to say.

Starting point is 00:15:39 I don't know what they're saying. I don't know. But now, you know, over the last couple decades, we've built a stronger relationship and he just retired and moved back to the Philippines and in, you know, was a great grandfather to his grandkids. But, you know, it took time, right? It takes time, some time to get to know people. And, you know, and in hindsight for me as I'm a father myself, and we have five children

Starting point is 00:16:03 of our own and we have one on the way. So about to have number six. I've learned a few things. You know, my oldest is about to be 20 years old. So I've been a father for, you know, almost 20 years now. So I've learned some lessons along the way, right? Like you said, we learned lessons. And one of the things I learned is that, you know, I don't know, you know, what he was going through back in 1981 when I was born.

Starting point is 00:16:28 You know, I don't know what the circumstances were. And I can't begin to understand, you know, how hard it might have been for him to give up a kid, you know, and be track. Because he was a merchant marine and traveling and painting ships all over the world. And so I don't know. But I, but as a father, you know, I can at least put myself into his shoes, you know, my perspective has shifted a little bit because I know it's not easy having five kids in my own and trying to raise kids in this world and dealing with everything that's going on. So I have a lot of empathy for him now, but it took time obviously to grow, to grow stuff like that. But I've always

Starting point is 00:17:09 had a lot of empathy for people. And I think, you know, my mom was ill as a kid, was born with one lung. So had oxygen for most of, you know, my life and seeing her suffer. So, but, yeah, Yeah, we definitely learn a lot from getting exposure to other cultures, to other people, to other family, and just the stories that we can learn about people. It's just really, really cool. And that gives you stuff to be able to share and pass down to your kids and other generations and just keep the timeline alive if that makes sense. Yeah. And I just, hearing your story is amazing. So from what you say, I can really see that fatherhood, fatherhood.

Starting point is 00:17:50 fatherhood is such an important part of your life yeah and your identity that fatherhood being a father yeah it's important that you are a good role model you know like yeah like for me blazing a trail is not for me you know it's for them it's for showing them like hey it doesn't matter like you know what your background is your education like where you where you grew up like you can blaze the trail you can have what you want you can accomplish your dreams you can go after them you can fail and back up. It's like all of these things that I've been doing and trying to model. I mean, I spent 15 years in corporate and, you know, tried to blaze a trail there that was basically ending because there was nowhere for me else to go, but leave, you know, and then they saw me do that. And

Starting point is 00:18:38 in the first couple of years, weren't easy, right? They saw me with some struggles and, you know, hey, maybe this vacation wasn't as fun as they used to be, right? That type of stuff. But that's life. that's reality and they see you push through that and they get to see you on your highs, they get to see you on your lows. And I think for me, yeah, that being a father is important, but just trying to be the best example, be present. I think that's important. And I lost a lot of those years in corporate when I was traveling, you know, 10 days out

Starting point is 00:19:10 of the month and I wouldn't get to go to certain things. So I made it a priority when I left that I was going to, hey, I got to make sure I can bring my son to the bus. I can drive this one to here to this event. And make sure that the timeline revolves around them and what's important versus, you know, the business side of thing because business will come, business will go. But, you know, family is something that's very important. So do you have presence in your, in your kids' life, right, that they remember?

Starting point is 00:19:40 100%. You there. I think it's important. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So stories are fascinating. And I think we really underestimate.

Starting point is 00:19:48 to what extent those stories are really important. They are reflection of our purpose here. They're not random, let's say. I'm convinced it's not random that I had to spend time like almost five years living without my parents. You had to spend 12 years not knowing your father. I'm sure that there is a purpose to that too because in that we learned something like blazing our own trail for once, right?

Starting point is 00:20:17 And then also, for instance, in my case, what you're just talking about, I thought, my father's dead, by the way, for quite some time already. And what I realized looking back is that he was 38, I think, or 37, 38. So he just hit the midlife crisis, so to say, when he sent me away. And I'm only realizing it now when I'm working with guys at that age, and it's already much younger than me now. And I see, you know, the challenges. And one of the you just said that you have to be present.

Starting point is 00:20:46 and you have to be strongly for your kids. You have to be a trailblazer. But my dad couldn't, he couldn't be a trailblazer for me. And his way was to throw me on my own, so I can learn that. You know, and that's also something I had to accept and forgive, you know, and also not take it as a part of punishment or whatever,

Starting point is 00:21:11 but, I mean, that he could not be there for me for whatever reason, right? And in a way, now when I work with guys and I see how it's challenging for them also, you know, to balance all these different priorities and be there for the kids, I have better empathy there, right? You know, for the man who's really, in a way, I'm grateful to my dad that I think I was better off finding a world outside of family, which was at that time really very dysfunctional. My dad also has drinking problems. And there many other things, which really kind of throwing you maybe into the woods and say, okay, blaze your own trail there.

Starting point is 00:21:49 I know you can do it, you know? You are brave, you're tough girl. And that's part of the story as well. Yeah, owning that and seeing, well, not just part of the story, it's part of the purpose. Yeah. Absolutely. So, so you mentioned university. So let's talk about that a little bit.

Starting point is 00:22:07 You know, what was that always kind of something as you were growing up where you're like, hey, I definitely want to go to university? Was that something that people in your life, said, hey, this is something that we want you to do. I'm just curious because everybody has a different opinion in perspective. And you can, you mentioned you didn't have a degree, right? No, yeah, I didn't go to school, college at all. I mean, I knew that I wasn't, I would not excel there. I just the, I guess, conformity of class and in kind of being, having to sit in a chair, like, I was very, very disruptive. I was like, class clown. I was, you know, and it wasn't that I couldn't,

Starting point is 00:22:46 do well in school. I just did not, you know, I was very, very hyperactive and definitely undiagnosed ADHD. I'm pretty confident of that because even like even now, I'm the same way, but I actually have found ways to actually leverage the positive benefits of it, if that makes sense, like the creativity. And it's why I've got multiple businesses now. And it's why I have so many things going on in it. And it works. It's like organized chaos for me. And I couldn't get that in, you know, in the 90s in high school, right? Like, they were just like, go to the office, like, get out of class. We have time to deal with you or your antics, so get the heck out of here.

Starting point is 00:23:27 And so I didn't do really well. And I was like, if I got to call, it's like, I'm going to be wasting either my money because my parents don't have any or me paying this stuff back for a long time. And I was just like, okay, I'm going to go get a job in sales. I love talking to people. Let me go do that because if I can do that, I can, you know, I can have a living, you know. Yeah, well, I love this about your story. For me, that wasn't an option. Because it's like in my family, it's very focused on academia.

Starting point is 00:23:57 My mother, a professor actually at the University of languages, Germanic languages. And in my family, it almost like not going to college. It just didn't exist, you know. Skipping a degree didn't exist. And I guess generally the background is like the more degrees, the better and stuff like that. And so, and I, on the one hand, I knew I didn't want to be in academia. And I also knew I don't want to be near languages or physics. My father was a physicist.

Starting point is 00:24:28 So that was like out of the question. And actually, most of what I saw around my family, I didn't like. So I had no idea sort of where to go with that. So the world was opening up in terms of the, you know, East Europe, West Europe and so on. So there was a lot of, a lot of process there. the business from the West was coming and going into the East. The way acquisitions in the Eastern Europe and, you know, American businesses where we're coming and investing, you know,

Starting point is 00:24:56 and buying businesses and all that. And I just, I guess I was always interested in money somehow. I was interested as like, how can I use my skills to make money? So the idea of my parents had this idea that money are not important somehow. So and not surprise, surprise. we never had any and always always were in debt yeah so and there was also a story that money work in in mysterious ways there's many stories like that you know and i remember by the way when i was like seven or eight that was before i was sent away my parents had the budget meetings in the family

Starting point is 00:25:32 which was very unusual so to say and they invited me in one of those budget meetings and i was like a first grade or something and i looked at that and i thought that's weird because numbers they just don't add up you know it's like i i didn't know about budgeting. I didn't know much, maybe about money, but I did know the numbers didn't add up, you know? And I remember my mom even telling me, oh, you know, when we do budget, we always see this gap. But what I found to tell me, it's actually, it's better not to look and just kind of go with the flow and then the gap will somehow be closed. You can imagine that sort of approach to money making what was a bit a recipe for disaster. Well, guess what?

Starting point is 00:26:16 As a little bit more grown up, I realized that they were just borrowing from relatives and friends all the time. And all my life, basically, that was boring. And that's how miraculous gap was closing. Yeah, they had to figure out a way to close the gap. I don't know. But for me, it was, I felt that. I felt that constant pressure of money, even though my parents tried to be very generous with me. But I felt this constant pressure.

Starting point is 00:26:44 And I knew, no, no, I had to do. do something that paid. And so I was, and I didn't even understand how the corporate world works, but I started asking people, what do they do in businesses? Because in my family, no one knew about business, no one knew about corporate world. So I was, I was talking like American people, British people, German people, but what are they doing in, literally, what are they doing there in the businesses, in offices and stuff like that. So anyway, so I found the degree in the, in the UK, and one of my grandfathers died and left some money for my parents and my father actually used the money to pay for my degree,

Starting point is 00:27:22 which was very, very generous because they could not afford that at all. So it was one of those gaps, miraculous gaps, so to say, right. So in a way, I benefited from the fact that my father always believed he still could do things he couldn't afford. So anyway, so I had an amazing time in the UK and I learned. about business, how business works, and about HR, because I wanted some way you can combine business and people about HR. So I did this very weird degrees called industrial relations and personnel management. It just sounds horrifying. But it's really about, you know, HR, how to do HR in a corporate world. And also about, we also did consultancy,

Starting point is 00:28:08 learned how to be a consultant because, as I said, a lot of businesses then, they were bought the way converted, organizational development and all that. And that's, it was actually, I was curious about it. It was interesting, but I have to say, I was very consciously thinking, okay, I have to, I have to do something that pays. You know, I was very, very, so to say, I have to say, I told myself that purpose or whatever, they can wait. I have to deal with that.

Starting point is 00:28:38 So when I started working in corporate and, well, I tried to, I, I, I, I, I, wanted to work for consultancy, but it didn't work out. I did a little bit for Ernst & Young, as they were called back then. But then I started working corporate in HR. And funny enough, in HR I also was in charge of money. So I always was Excel was my best friend and I was like compensational benefits or calculating the budgets or consequences or plans for restructuring. And, you know, and that was that was my life in corporate for a while.

Starting point is 00:29:13 But it did work from the money side. That's good. That was the goal, right? Until it didn't. Okay. Yeah. Then it started. So what happened next?

Starting point is 00:29:29 So you worked in HR, you worked in, you made some money, of course. And then did they let you go or did you move on to something else? No, no. Unfortunately not. If they let me go, that would be so much easier. No, I was doing actually quite well. I really started hating it. And well, actually accidents start happening in a way that I was progressing through the ranks

Starting point is 00:29:52 quite well. And I started, I got a working with a coach. I think it was in the UK. I was working in the UK and I got a coach to work with. And by then I already heard about coaching because we were taught some coaching skills as leaders as managers, you know. So I was like, okay. And I, you know, had to coach junior managers.

Starting point is 00:30:10 But I've never worked with a coach before myself. And then I got a coach. And I thought, that's fascinating. I loved it. And I thought, well, and this guy makes money with it. So I have to, I have to get on the other side of this. Yeah. So that was, that was my, my idea.

Starting point is 00:30:27 That's how I should get out of corporate and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, what were your, what were your, what were your thoughts? Yeah. So, you're like, I know I want to do that, but what vehicle do I have, what skills, what, you know, strengths? Do I have to deliver? on the coaching, right? So where were you at? Were you just kind of ground zero at that point? Like, okay, how do I monetize? Not even ground zero below that because it's like it was a fantasy. Part of me was saying is like, come on. It's not realistic. Well, I have to say that I was curious.

Starting point is 00:31:02 So I was asking for instance, I asked that coach, then we had a bigger structuring and we had other coaches are on board to, you know, provide a placement to people. I wasn't a recipient of that, but I saw how they operated. So I was curious. I started asking them, how did they become coaches and all that? You know, started doing my research online. But what I did mostly, whatever coaches we hide or I would get, I would then, you know, ask them, how did you get there? What's that? Then I would do my research.

Starting point is 00:31:31 But yeah, you're right in a way that I had no idea. It's not even ground zero. Grand zero is okay, I am starting somewhere. This was like I was in kind of fantasy world and doing this research from time to time, reading some books from time to time. my reality was so different from him and I just did not see it's it's like I see with my clients as well it's like I am on the one side of the river I see there's like a nice party like you know circus going on on the other side of the river but there is no bridge so I can whoever comes to my side I ask how is it fun over there is like the circus really great

Starting point is 00:32:03 yeah it's fun it's amazing you'd love it yeah how do I get that well we don't know But then I started I know that feeling I've felt that before many times Yeah How do I get across to that circus Called what I really want to do But it was calling me

Starting point is 00:32:26 I have to say that it was calling me And it kept sending me messengers It kept sending me people across in the boat And every time I was like How do I get there? How do I get there? Sometimes I got lucky at this one guy said, hey, I'd recommend the program. It's really great for like executives like you, corporate executives like you.

Starting point is 00:32:45 And he knew what I was looking for because that's what he said. You can ask your company to send you on that course pretending you need it for your job, you know, as a senior chairperson because you're like senior leader, blah, blah, blah. But actually, you will figure out there how, because you at the same time, you will get the skill sets that will be, you know, you can basically then monetize it as a coach, right? So you kind of hit both birds with stone. And it will be valid for your employer. And this is very important, by the way, for pivoters, career pivoters and people who

Starting point is 00:33:19 try to find this bridge from corporate, which I learned later on that program. And then later when I was coaching people through that is that the gap is so wide. And so they're looking for this transitional spaces, basically, the bridge time experience that would provide the steps. But it has to be valid. you need to be able to explain to the world why all of a sudden you, I don't know, senior marketing officer or someone, I don't know, doing a program on, I don't know, what is it like coaching, like or mentoring.

Starting point is 00:33:51 Nowadays, it's actually more common because people are, you know, taught that skills. Back then when I started doing it was early 2000s, it was still an early stage for coaching as well. So it was weird. I got a lot of, in a way, there was this whole trailblazing things that had happened. because a lot of people in my world were like, why? Why are you doing this? And I also, the company actually was very, very kind. They paid part of it because they wanted to retain me.

Starting point is 00:34:17 But I had to also invest and people like, where would you invest in this? Why would you pay for this and things like that? And yeah, but that started providing a bridge, not by itself. By itself, it wouldn't help. But there I actually met people. I made the right connections. And I started, I started for me. my own, let's say, system back then, trial and error, trial and error, trial and error,

Starting point is 00:34:42 of how this actually could work for me. And what's very important in career transitions like I know now is what there's prototyping, so to say, how it could look like for me. And to build those, let's say prototypes, we need to have, we need to see someone else doing it, not maybe entirely, but elements of that. So I can say, okay, I can imagine if I do something like this person did and then add this and maybe that at that, that could actually work for me. And then you actually see someone who's done something similar,

Starting point is 00:35:12 maybe on a different scale in a different way, but it actually happens. It gives you ideas. So I started to build my system of transition, even though it was still early days and I actually did it the wrong way for a while. And I still kept very stuck. But I already was learning it. And eventually I did make this transition.

Starting point is 00:35:33 I think he did some important things. I think he did some important. things which were a you started to move you know because without action you're not going to create any momentum so you started to put one foot in front of the other which meant like networking going getting around people right so that was important because that created a mindset shift but an actual shift shift because things were happening if that makes sense and that that helped position you and put you in a position to start to meet people that now you can kind of take all the knowledge that you've been learning and go test it.

Starting point is 00:36:11 Like, because again, if you don't test something out, if you don't test the waters and see if this is going to be viable, then you just start doing it. And then there's crickets. Well, you should test it. I tell my clients all the time, you've got to test things out. And that's what a lot of, actually, that's one of the big myths. Speaking about degrees and university degrees, a lot of people I work with and mid career people, they think that in order to change career, they have to start with a degree.

Starting point is 00:36:40 I do a degree first, you know, basically I'll start all over. I do a degree and then somehow the path will follow. And it's not true. And the degrees kind of give you this time, degrees give you this space where you meet people, you know, relevant people, yes. But what often happens, people invest in these degrees, then they come out on the other side and they actually, and they start maybe even doing that, but they don't enjoy it. they start hating it three years in Ian they're hating it again so it's like oh my god

Starting point is 00:37:09 I've just orchestrated this whole career pivot and I hate it and that was important because you know like speaking of the circus on the other side it may look great from across the river but I think what started happening with for me is I'd had those chances to actually make the trips to the circles to the circus with some of these you know people where I actually was involved in coaching experience I was I wasn't involved in coaching others working in coaching programs, being recipient of coaching, working into individually coaching, group coaching, all sorts of things. So I started testing it and I realized that's exactly what I want to be doing.

Starting point is 00:37:43 But many people actually, they invest in a lot on this side of the river. Then they get on the other side and they hate it. Yeah. Well, you have to put it in the reps, you know, like those reps are so important. The reps of actually coaching people. That's huge. And I did that in corporate. I taught a six-month leadership program, and then I coached all 15 to 20 people on a monthly basis.

Starting point is 00:38:08 And there's a lot of value that gets extracted, and there's a lot that we can add to people in that amount of time. And in the fact that you were doing it, but you were also in programs yourself and then learning it. And then, you know, those different iterations of it, you know, that all kind of help mold and shape your probably, I'm going to assume what your eventual program is today. which we're going to get into here in just a minute. But one thing I wanted to just point out, because I think this is important for everyone that's going to watch this or listen this, investing in you is huge. Okay, if you're in a corporate role, you've got to invest in you.

Starting point is 00:38:47 And there are companies, I know, because I did this same thing when it comes to professional development. If you can figure out a way, like Anna said, to align it with their goals for the organization, they will certify you in whatever you want. Okay. I mean, I'm certified in Myers-Briggs from my corporate role. Got certified in sales enablement. I got certified as an advanced instructor.

Starting point is 00:39:11 I got sent to conferences and they will invest in you as long as you are willing to invest in you as well. You know, and Anna, you did something really cool, which was you said, hey, I'll even take part of my hard-earned money. And I'll meet you guys and, you know, pay that. And like you said, there wasn't a lot of people in early 2000s, definitely not coming out of their pocket, but also there wasn't a lot of organizations that were investing to the extent of what we see now, like professional development now is huge. And most companies, you know, like the company I was with for 15 years, we had our own internal programs, our own certifications and things like that. So that was a big piece of the puzzle. And so I'd love for you to just, we've really learned a lot about you today, which has been really, really cool. And I think it's definitely a great time to transition into how you are helping, you know, people, you know, these mid-level leaders or, you know, mid-level age men, I believe you said.

Starting point is 00:40:14 And kind of getting them unstuck and helping them, you know, be able to be the best versions of themselves. Yeah. Thanks, Jordan. Yeah. And by the way, yeah, that was actually a great idea. asking my company to sponsor me, which I would probably be too shy, but this man who I asked for help and who was advising me because he helped others, he told me, and he was working for the business school. He said, absolutely, do a business case for your company, show how you will add value.

Starting point is 00:40:40 So I actually did a business case and company approved it. So just say that that's something I maybe would be shy to do, but it was actually, it provided me with resources to do that. And I did add a lot of value to my company through that program as well. Yeah. Well, what happened next is that if we fast forward, then eventually I did become a coach, having made a lot of, a lot of mistakes. And where I started working as a coach was for programs like that, for executive education programs, business schools, where I worked with other corporate executives because that's what I knew. And the important thing there was for me, realize, as the same

Starting point is 00:41:13 as I did get there, that people have two agendas, you know, and that's what a lot of, and that's what's key for mid-career change. People have all of these programs. We're full of people who had two agendas. One official one, I'm here to, you know, become a better leader, better corporate, more effective, blah, blah, blah, make my next career step. But the undercover agenda was, this is a legitimate space where I'm trying to find a different path because I'm stuck in corporate. I'm not living my dream. I'm not utilizing my skills. I've reached the ceiling. It's a dead end. I actually dread the promotion because I don't want to continue there, but I don't know what else I want. That's the worst thing.

Starting point is 00:41:56 If I knew, I do it, but I don't know. So I'm hoping this time in between while I'm doing this two-year program and going away on this business trips, I will somehow figure it out. And that's what I realized as a coach, that that is a much bigger and more interesting for me problem to solve rather than really actually, you know, teaching them some leadership competencies or, you know, coaching them and having a conflict resolution discussion with the boss or something like that. That that, the career pivot that they came and but they're not sure, it's like hidden, but they're looking for it. Having those conversations were more important.

Starting point is 00:42:35 And actually, I found clients actually starting these conversations. But because I was through that journey and I played that's dual role, right? I could pick up on that. And I say, yeah, exactly. Let me tell you what you do now. And then I started coaching. And so that's how I realized, well, that's what I'm supposed to be doing. And then when I needed to specialize a bit more and already go into more having my own clients

Starting point is 00:42:56 rather than coaching clients for corporate or for business schools, then I asked for my own coaching help and consulting help. And I realized that the sweet spot, let's say, where I'm best effective, I know what I'm doing and also where the clients need that help like that is mid-carea. And also most of them are men. and it's not to exclude women, but women also get great coaching help with women, but actually men and women have somewhat different needs at midlife and mid-career. That's also what I realized.

Starting point is 00:43:25 And I started specialize on men, and so for the last decade, almost, I am specializing there. And it was also a lot of trial and error. But yes, this is where I basically helped men to navigate that gap between where they are, stuck in their career, maybe doing well, but kind of having lost their mojo, having lost the drive, lost the motivation. They cannot imagine doing it for another 20 years. They want more out of life emotionally, impact-wise, and income-wise often. They want to have their own thing.

Starting point is 00:43:56 They want to become their own man. They want to be like you, Jordan, right? Running their own show. And I'm helping them now that I've already been through so many trial and errors, I build the system, basically how that takes you from this side of the river to the other side when there is no bridge. And it saves a lot of time, saves a lot of suffering. And basically like five main steps.

Starting point is 00:44:20 Of course, it's simple but not easy, as we say, right? But at least it. Well, I think we can rename your program live on the show. And it's going to be called five steps to get to the circus. You know, and it's just the five ways to get over to the other side of the river when you're stuck on the other side, right? So, hey, listen, where can the men? Yeah, write that one down.

Starting point is 00:44:44 You can have that. That's for free. Okay. So where can folks get in touch with you that are dealing with this circus that they can't get to? Guys, if you want to have a circus in your life and you want to start it as soon as possible, seriously. Well, basically it's my name, anornova.com. That's that's where you should go. And there would be free training there. So just watch free training, which is basically my masterclass. I've redone it about. 55 times. So now it's really as short as possible. It's just only 45 minutes. It has all the symptoms that how you know, yes, it's your time. If you've done it 55 times, Anna, you can definitely be called masterclass. It is actually called masterclass. But people tell me, people tell me that if I saw masterclass, people are more likely to click on free training. Yeah, shall I do it? Shall I call masterclass? It's actually free. It's free. And it is a master class. Yeah, that's fun. It is masterclass.

Starting point is 00:45:45 We're going to also link it. We're going to put it in the show notes for you as well. So that way everybody can click. Definitely, guys, if you want to take control of your life, if you're just kind of feeling lost, you're just feeling like, hey, I know there's, I'm meant for more. Then definitely reach out to Anna. I know she'll be a great resource. Hey, I appreciate your time today. Keep blazing your own trail.

Starting point is 00:46:07 You definitely have done it, but you're continuing to do it. And I'm excited to continue to stay connected and hear more. about how you're helping men all around the world. Thanks, Jordan. Really loved being on your show. It's great fun. Thanks so much.

Blaze Your Own Trail - Navigating Midlife Crisis & Personal Growth With Anna Urnova

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