Blaze Your Own Trail - S2:E16- Cracking the Leadership Code With Alain Hunkins

Episode Date: July 18, 2020

A sought-after keynote speaker, facilitator and coach, Alain Hunkins is a leadership expert who connects the science of high performance with the performing art of leadership. Leaders trust him to help unlock their potential and expand their influence, leading to superior results, increased engagement, higher levels of retention, and greater organizational and personal satisfaction. He has a gift for translating complex concepts from psychology, neuroscience and organizational behavior into simple, practical tools that can be applied on the job. Over the course of his 20+ year career, Alain has worked with tens of thousands of leaders in over 25 countries, and served clients in all industries, including 42 Fortune 100 companies. He delivers dynamic keynotes, seminars, and workshops covering a variety of leadership topics including communication, team building, conflict management, peak performance, motivation, and change. With his Master’s in Fine Arts in Acting from the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee’s Professional Theater Training Program, and a BA from Amherst College, Alain also serves on the faculty of Duke Corporate Education, ranked #2 worldwide in 2018 by Financial Times on its list of customized Executive Education programs. Alain has  lectured at UNC Kenan-Flagler’s business school and Columbia University. Alain has authored over 400 articles, and been published by The Association for Talent Development, CEO Refresher, and the American Management Association. A certified co-leader for ManKind Project International, a non-profit whose mission is to help men lead lives of service to their families, communities, and workplaces, he’s based in Northampton, MA with his wife and two children. In this episode we discuss: Alain's upbringing His early years His musical ability Where he studied His leadership journey His book What he's up to now And more! Connect with Alain: Website: www.alainhunkins.com Book: www.crackingtheleadershipcode.com Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/alainhunkins Ted Talk: ted.com/talks/alain_hunkins_the_basic_truth_most_leaders_neglect Enjoy the show? Join our Facebook Community! https://www.facebook.com/groups/blazeyourowntrailmastermind/ If you haven't already, be sure to rate/review the show on iTunes! Installing strategic sales systems & processes will stop the constant revenue rollercoaster you might be facing which is attainable through our 6 Week Blazing Business Revenue Coaching ProgramBook a discovery call with Jordan now to learn more! Are you an entrepreneur?Join my FREE Group Coaching Community where we have live calls, Q&A and more! Our Trailblazer Ecosystem also enables you to network with other entrepreneurs and creator hub eliminates multiple subscriptions and logins creating a one stop shop to take action!Use code: FOUNDING100 for 12 months access FREE and Founding pricing for life! (While Supplies Last)Join now! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everyone, I hope you enjoy this episode with Alon Hunkins. He's got a incredible story. He's got so much experience in the leadership world. He's an author. He's a speaker. He's really a leadership guru in all right. So sit back, relax, and I hope you enjoy this conversation. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Blaze Your Own Trail podcast. I'm your host, Jordan Mendoza. And I've got a very special guest today. His name is Elaine Humkins. And I just want to give him a second to give you all some context on who he is and what he does. And then we'll get into the show. Hello, everyone. My name is Alain, actually. Yeah, it's Alain.

It's the French version of Allen. My mom is from Brussels, Belgium. So Alain Hunkins. And what I do is I help people to grow their own leadership capacity. I've been doing that for about 25 years. I'm the managing director of Hunkins Leadership Group. I'm also author of a best-selling. book on Amazon called Cracking the Leadership Code, Three Secrets to Building Strong Leaders,

which was published by Wiley in March of 2020. And it's great to be with you here today, Jordan. Thanks. Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. And I knew I was going to do something with the name. So let's hear it one more time for the audience. It's Alan.

Sure. It's Alain. Alain. Okay. Alain. Exactly. It's the French version of Alan. Or as I sometimes say, it's pretentious for Alan. So, yeah.

There we go. Perfect. All right. So what I love to do on this show is. really take a rewind and get some context on you and your journey to this point, right? Because what you're doing now is phenomenal and we are going to get back there towards the end of the episode. But let's find out how you were as a kid. So, you know, where were you born and raised? And how were you as a kid? Were you more into school? Were you an athlete? Let's give the

audience some context on Alon here. Sure. Yeah. So I was born in Flushing Queens in New York City in 1968, so you can put the math together. I'm 51 right now. And so basically, I had a pretty unusual childhood. At the time, I didn't think it was unusual because you just think whatever you're dealing with is pretty normal. So I was raised by a single mom. My parents divorced when I was one. That's not that unusual. And I was raised by her and her mom, my grandmother. So that part is not really unusual. The unusual part is that both my mother and my grandmother are both Holocaust survivors. So my mom is born in 1935. So World War II broke out in 1939. And then the Nazis invaded Belgium in 1942. And from 42 until the end of the war, about three years, my mom was

separated from her mom and basically put in hiding through the Belgian underground. And my grandmother was actually arrested and she was brought to a holding camp in Belgium. She was on the transport. I've actually seen the documents. She was number 100. on the next scheduled transport train to go to Auschwitz. And luckily, that train never left. And they were reunited after the war. And they survived most of the rest of the family, including my grandfather, were all killed.

As you can imagine, that had a pretty traumatic impact on their lives. And it definitely impact the way they raised me. So from early on, being a kid growing up in the 1970s in New York City, I'd have this home life and then I'd go to school, and it was so different from what I experienced at home. So at home, everything felt really heavy and weighted. And I would hear things like, don't ever share any information unless someone asks you for it.

So it was very low trust. And so early on, I got the sense that, you know, the old song, one of these things is not like the other. It was so different from everything else. So early on, I got really interested in people, specifically why do people do what they do? why do people believe what they believe? And I think that really stems back to my childhood. So I got this interest in people and I ended up studying psychology for a while in college. I also studied

theater. Actually have a graduate degree in acting. I became a professional actor and worked as a professional actor for a while. And I think in some ways it was trying to take on the character of other people, right, as you do as an actor. So I did that. And that led me into teaching people leadership. actually junior high school and high school students in New York City using arts, creative arts and education. And then from there I transitioned into working in organizations and doing leadership and management training in companies. But if I said there was a through line through all of it, it's definitely people. I'm just fascinated by people. And I think in some ways, my desire to help people to grow and develop themselves, you know, I have this personal mission, which is to create a

vibrant and alive world by kindling the fire of brilliance in people. And I think my mission really stems back to, you know, if I could wave a magic wand and go back in time and make my mother and my grandmother happier people, I would. But since I wasn't able to do that with them, I'm trying to do it with everybody else. So little self psychology on that one as well. So that's a bit of my story, Jordan. No, no. And I love that. And so you started noticing things in people from in early age, right? And I get it because, you know, you're getting this information and this environment at home. And like you said, you go to school and it's a whole completely different world, right? So early on, I mean, you were thinking. So when did this first become like a massive part of

maybe your day, right, where you would think, I don't know if it was all, it might have been all day, but was this maybe like elementary? Was this middle school? And then how did it start? to change because I had to have shifted a little bit, maybe in high school. So I'd love to get some context on that. So here's the interesting part about this. So that's my mom's family. I told you my parents split up when I was one. Well, my dad is a musician. He's a pianist. And both of his parents are professional musicians. His mom was a violinist. His dad was a professional cellist. And he's one of five kids. All the kids went into music. I actually started playing the violent age of five. And so while all of this stuff is going on with my mom and my grandmother,

I've also got this whole music side. And actually, in a lot of ways, music was great because I could kind of keep my head down and just kind of focus on that. And if I just kept working, I'd make progress. So that was an outlet for me, because frankly, all the stuff about World War II and my grandmother, that was never talked about.

That was all buried below the surface and really didn't come out until I was like 20 years old. We really didn't talk about it much at all. So in the meantime, I was really much more focused on playing the violin and I did that. And I actually went in near, New York City, there's the high school of music and art and performing arts, which was made famous by the movie fame and the TV show fame. So that's where I went to high school.

So for me, I had this really great high school experience of being with really creative, interesting people, and I just felt like I had found my tribe. I've always felt very comfortable around artists and people who express themselves because I think the arts and particularly the performing arts are a way for us to connect at a deeply human level that a lot of other things can't connect in that same way. So a lot of that went on throughout my childhood. Certainly a theme was performing arts. And clearly, I went from being a violinist to becoming an actor. So the arts has been a really pivotal part in my life. Yeah. And it makes sense that, you know, you enjoy public speaking, right? Because, right? Because, you know, I mean, you can put on a

show for people, right? And take people on this journey that really gives you an advantage. if you've been in performing arts, you know, because, you know, different organizations, right? I know you've done a TED talk, right? And with TED talks, they put you in a circle, right? And you've got to stay in the circle. So I'm thinking that that performance background really helped prepared you for a moment like that. So can you give the audience some context on that talk? Sure. Yeah. So basically, if you've been a professional actor, the TED talk, I think for people who haven't given a big talk like that can be. pretty nerve-wracking. I mean, the one that I did, which was at TEDx Den Helder in October of 2018, Den Helder is a small town in the Northern Netherlands. And basically, it was in this big theater. It was filled about 700 people with two balconies, and it's super dark. And the key, whether it's a TED talk or really any kind of public speaking, the key is to know your material cold. I mean,

just to rehearse more than you think that you need to. And whenever I'm coaching people, I try to help them understand that public speaking, in fact, it's kind of funny because there really is no other kind of speaking. All speaking is public speaking. But public speaking is a conversation. And it's just a distilled, clear conversation. And the way you get the clarity is by rehearsing. And the physical act of speaking words through your mouth out to the world is different from understanding them in your brain. And so you need to prepare and rehearse and say it out loud a lot and a lot more than you think you do. Just to give you a little context on that, when I did the TED Talk, and the talk was about 12 minutes long, I knew that it would be recorded by the internet and you only

get one take. You don't get to go back. There's no edits. And I knew that I didn't want to have a talk that had lots of, you know, kind of. So I wanted to make sure I knew it. So I basically, rehearsed that talk. And I lost count, but I easily rehearsed it at least 75 times from start until end. And again, I'm a professional actor and I'm a professional speaker. I've been doing public speaking every week for my job for the last 25 years. And I still put in that time. And I think what a lot of people don't realize about the craft is when someone gets up there and does it so well, you think, oh my gosh, they are such a natural. They are so relaxed right now.

When in fact, what you're not seeing are all the hours and hours of work that goes on underneath the surface. And the fact is, what makes it look so natural is all the effort that went into it. So that's a piece for anyone who wants to do it. Practice, find places. And if you're not familiar, toastmasters.org is the world's largest not-for-profit. It is a great place to go and cut your teeth. It is designed to support your public speaking career. Whether you want to do it professionally or just as an amateur, just get better at it or just overcome the fear of it.

It's a great place to go and check it out. So Toastmasters.org, they are everywhere all around the world. Yeah, it's interesting you brought them up because I've had a couple people recently. They're like, hey, this is something you should be a part of. You should join this group. And then now you've just brought it up. So I think it's something I'm definitely going to check out. and for anyone out there that wants to speak at anything, right?

Like you said, I think whenever you can practice, you put that repetition in. That's the only way that you're going to get any type of momentum started, right? Is you have to show up, right? I'm actually in part right now. It's day 22 was today of a 30 days of videos challenge that I'm doing on LinkedIn. And, you know, when I go back and look at day one versus day 22, There's a market difference, right?

But it's one of those things. It's you have to show up. You've got to fumble through it, but you've got to practice. I did a blooper reel like on day eight, right? Just showing that they look at, it may look like one take, but there was plenty more that you all didn't see. So, hey, let me give you some context into how many times it actually takes you to get these things right. So I appreciate you saying that.

Yeah, Jordan, you bring up such an important point, which is whatever we see, a performance, we are seeing the end product, which we don't see all the messiness that goes into it. You know, I wrote this book, and there are so many writing and rewriting draft, first draft, second draft, and getting an editor and having them edit it, then showing it to my friends and having them edit it and come back. And so that's the process. And if you really want to commit to that, you've got to fall in love with the process a little bit. Because otherwise, you just look at the whole thing and go, that is way too much work. And it is work.

But if you realize you're doing it to be of service, because if we're not at a certain level of quality, people are going to tune us out, whether it's your LinkedIn videos or anything. We want to create great content. And the way to do that is by spending more time at the craft. Absolutely. And so you went off, you finished high school up,

and you went to college. So can you give the audience, what was that experience like and maybe some of your favorite moments during your time? Yeah, sure. So I went to high school in New York City. So it was high school for the arts in New York City Public School. And I was actually a very good student graduated number one of my class. I was the valedictorian out of 552. And I was accepted to Amherst College, which is in Western Massachusetts, which is a very top rated elite private institution. And when I got there, I actually felt Jordan really a little out of place because a lot of people that I went to the college, you know, obviously because it's elite, a lot of wealthy people were there. And in fact, I remember the story, one of my good friends that I'm still friends with lived on my freshman dorm and he had gone to a very well-known elite boarding school that I had never heard of. And he said, yeah, I went to this boarding school called St. Paul's. And I went, oh, my first thought was, oh, your parents didn't

love you because I thought the only kind of boarding schools were military academies where your parents sent you off if you got in trouble. Like I didn't even know that there was a whole other world of these boarding schools. So I remember being there and feeling uncomfortable at first. And the academics were super challenging. And I had too much of an ego to go and ask for help. I remember there was a writing counselor who was on enroll, like on the staff, on the payroll, full time to help students to help them get better at writing. And I certainly could have benefited from going to talk to them,

but I was too shy. I was too scared. I was too much ego to go. And I look back at some of those times and I think, oh, gosh, you know, they talk about education being wasted on the young. And I feel like I didn't take advantage of the fact that, you know, if you're a student, you're the. customer, you're paying tuition. You know, you take advantage of all the resources that are there.

And I wish I had done that more. But yeah, I definitely dabbled quite a bit when I was an undergrad. So it was a liberal arts college. I studied, like I said, psychology quite a bit. I also studied Buddhism and Buddhist scriptures because there's a really interesting teacher who taught that and that kind of blew my world because I hadn't ever thought about some of those concepts. I studied a lot in English. I also took a lot of classes. I found out in the English department, there were film classes where you could watch movies and write papers about this. And I thought, this is great. I so much prefer watching movies to reading books at the time. So I did a lot of that. And I definitely dabbled. And I remember getting to senior year and not really

knowing what I was going to do next. And I saw a lot of my classmates. They'd start, you know, cutting their hair and putting on these interview suits. And they were interviewing for jobs at advertising agencies or investment banking firms where they were applying for law school or medical school. And I thought, it's not me, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. I really didn't know. And I had gotten involved in theater in undergrad. I had acted in a couple of plays. I'd also written a couple of plays. So I'd done some playwriting. And I have a stepmom who is involved in the theater out in Cleveland. And she said, oh, do you know that a lot of professional theaters have internships? Have you thought about applying for an internship? I know the Cleveland. I know the Cleveland. even Playhouse has one. And so I thought, well, if I'm going to apply to one internship, I should apply to a bunch. And so I ended up going from undergrad. I went and I did an internship at the Milwaukee Repertory Theater as an acting intern where I was unpaid and basically spent the year. I was waiting tables on the side to pay my rent and just trying to learn and figure out what life was like. And I know that particularly the years after college, where I didn't have the

structure of school, I felt pretty adrift. I wasn't quite sure what to do. And another thing I wish I had known at the time was how important it was to maintain relationships. Somehow, you know, in school, it's so easy to focus just on the work. And if you do a good job, you'd get a good grade and you get promoted and et cetera. But once you get out of that structure, it's not about your grades. It's about who knows you, who likes you, who trusts you, who wants to work with you. And I wish I could have gone back and told my 22-year-old self, think about the people who really want to spend time with and cultivate those relationships because I think there were definitely some opportunities that passed me by just because I was a bit clueless, thinking that somehow

these opportunities would present themselves. There's a great quote by the playwright, David Mamet, that I always think of around this. He says, opportunity knocks, but it's seldom nags, right? So following up and finding people that you're around that make a difference, can make, yeah, it's really important. So that's a bit about my college years. So today, right, thinking back to when you're in that, in that world and leaving and, you know, because it was really took away from that is that, you know, networking, right?

You wish you would have not only networked, but maintain those relationships over the years because you could have went back, right? And you could have rekindled those relationships to help you, whether it's partnerships or working together. So would you say that networking is something that is pretty foundational to you now? Oh, now it's totally gotten much more foundational. And even, you know, it's funny because it's really easy.

If I had to look at a belief, a limiting belief that I've had for a long time, and I had to work at this one, was that Good Work should speak for itself. I mean, this is the trap of being the good student. I was a good student. And back in school, Good Work did speak for itself. You got awards. You got part of the National Honor. society and all that stuff. But the fact is, once you get out in the world, good work does not speak

for itself. If good work spoke for itself, the marketing department wouldn't exist. The whole field wouldn't exist. And so we need to learn how to toot our own horns, obviously not in a brass, you know, brash way that people are going to go, you're too self-promotional. But yes, do good work, because you need to have good work, but you need to promote yourself too, which is get yourself out there and build relationships. So networking is key for sure. And I had to up that entire game when I was about to publish a book because, you know, the publishers are great, but today and this day and age, unless your last name is Kardashian or J.K. Rowling, they're not going to do a lot of the work on the marketing end. So it's really up to the author to publish, to promote themselves.

And so for me, it was getting out there and meeting new people and continuing to put the word out. So I'm much more willing now to reach out to people that I don't know than I did, you know, even five years ago. So networking is definitely essential to moving things forward. Absolutely. So were you a pretty early adopter when it came to social media? Was that something that, you know, obviously it's started out with MySpace and went to Facebook and then Twitter comes out. So when you saw social media becoming like a key player as it related to branding yourself, was that something that you said, you know what? This is somewhere I need to put some focus and what platform would you say that you put out the most content on? Great question, Jordan. You know, I would love to answer you with that question and say,

oh, yeah, I was this early adopter and I was into that. That's just not true. It's just not where I was at. Yeah, I mean, for me and this, I'd say in general, I am not an early adopter around technology in general. I like the things that work and I create systems and then something new comes along and I'm thinking, but I already have this that work. So I was not an early adopter of this. And also, I think part of it, too, the idea of putting myself out online at the beginning, you know, I'm a Gen Xer. It was more like, hey, I'm good. I don't need all this. And in fact, I have many of my good friends are not on Facebook at all. And they just won't go there. And I said, well, you know, it's a necessary part of the world. So for me, I still don't use Facebook for

promoting my business a whole lot. I have a Facebook professional page, but I honestly don't use it. I really got involved with LinkedIn. And that's where I done all, because to me, that seems, given the professional nature of my work, that seems like the right platform for me. So I've definitely gone in, not, I'd love to say early, but no, I'd say in the last five years and particularly even in the last 18 months, I've really worked to up my game and my presence. And the cool thing about LinkedIn, well, really about technology, is that if you want to learn about somebody today and get to know them and start to see if that's someone you want to cultivate a relationship with, it's so easy to find out something about everyone because we all have a digital footprint. So now I can go and learn about people I want to connect to. And instead of cold emailing them, it's like, hey, I hear you're famous and you could help me.

Could you set up for coffee? No one wants to hear that. is as opposed to finding things that I could say that were really aligned with the work they were doing to create a commonality. So I definitely have started that with LinkedIn, and it's been hugely helpful. And I'm now growing my network. And somehow, even in the last few months, the number of followers I have is just kind of going. It's skyrocketing. I'm getting close to almost 100,000 followers today on LinkedIn.

So that's just kind of come and gone in quite some time. That's good. Yeah. And it's a platform that really, you know, the last year, year and a half has really changed, right? It's really shifted from just a place where you go to update your resume and write all these things. And it's shifted to a powerhouse platform for content creators and for people that want to get their message out there. But I think you made it a point. It's not always about promote just self-promotion, right?

But it's about how do I create content that's going to add value to the audience, right, that's going to teach somebody something that's going to entertain them in some certain way or empower them to maybe think about something a little bit differently. And I think when you can create content from that context that actually adds value to other people, then that's where you're going to get the engagement. That's where you're going to start to increase the following. because like you said, people actually get to know how you are, like how you are as a human, and they get to see that, you know, a different side of you. Yeah, yeah. I think what you say about adding value. To me, that always is the first rule of everything is what am I doing anything here that's adding value.

If this is about me, no one wants to hear it because look, I'm just not that interesting, frankly. Whereas the ideas that can help other people, that's interesting. And so that's what I keep coming back to is, you know, no one wants to hear. I need this from you. I want this from you. What they want to hear is how can I help? How can I support? How can I serve? And that when I say those things, that I have a good understanding of the area in which I can help you. So for example, I wouldn't go to somebody and say, hey, let me help you with your technology. I think about the last person you'd want to help you with your technology. But if you have issues in the sphere of leadership, anything having to do with helping people to be better connectors or better communicators or working together, better collaborators, that's my wheel house and I know how to help people on that. So it's just a question of knowing what your strengths are and then going to that conversation seeking to understand as opposed to pushing, pushing, pushing your salesness on them. Yeah, no, and I love that. It's because it really is about self-awareness.

It's about knowing, for one, how you like to show up, right? Some people don't like to be on video like this. Some people prefer to do static text or maybe an article. And that's, and that's completely fine, but that self-awareness piece is huge, right? So that, you know, because listen, if you're deathly afraid of video and you put out video, like, you're probably, you may not even post it because you're going to keep second guessing, you know, your ability if you don't put it in the time and the effort, right? Earlier, we talked about repetition, making sure that you're practicing and things like that. But I think it's, it's greatly important to stay in the lanes that you know, right like you said if i'm not going to be there talking about technology because it's not a space

i'm in but if it's leadership i'm i'm your guy right i'm the guy that you speak with and so like that's those are really really great points and for anyone that's listening that maybe you are that person that's sitting there and you're like hey what i i have knowledge about this subject well you know perfect it right perfect that knowledge talk about something story wise that can you know shed light on that topic, right? And that's, that's really how you start to build a tribe and a network. Yeah. Yeah, I love what you say, Jordan, too, around finding the things that work for you that, let's say video might not work, but maybe static text does. I had a great mentor once who said, you know, when it comes to networking, there are so many different ways to network. You can't do them all because you wouldn't

want to do them all because you won't enjoy doing them all. So find those three or four different ways that you like to network. So for example, for me, the idea of going to business networking breakfasts and going around the room and saying, hi, how are you? I would rather do just about anything else. I'd rather go to the dentist and go to those meetings. That's not my thing. It's not how I like to network. It's just I feel uncomfortable. I feel out of place there. So for me, one of the things that I started doing was I have published a monthly leadership newsletter where since I'm already reading a ton of great content and I'm writing some content, I distill all that down into a monthly newsletter where I share links and then I distill the summary

down. So I've curated, picked like four or five or six really great articles. I share a quick two or three sentence summary and a link to the article. So if people want to read more, they can. So it's a way that I'm now curating content for my community that's following me and they have that. Then they have links to my stuff and every month they're getting this and there's no sales involved. It's all, hey, here's some value. Here's this month's value. Here's this month's value. And then when it comes time to release a book, people are way more likely to support that because I've been giving and giving and giving and I just say, oh, and by the way, this book is coming out. So I don't need to really sell it because they already see the value because I've been creating that over time. But I think what's so important is

for each of us to find what are the networking strategies that work for you? Because those are the ones you're going to have energy for. And the other ones, just let them go. It's okay. Yeah, no. I mean, that really, really good point. You know, I have an opportunity to teach a six-month leadership program every year. This will actually be the fourth year. We're hoping, right, with COVID, everything's kind of shifting, and now we're going to have to go potentially virtual. But, you know, the foundation of the program is the Myers-Briggs type indicator. You know, I'm certified in Myers-Briggs, and we start there. And it's very fast. We have a cohort of about 14 or 15 each year, and it's very interesting.

Everybody takes the assessment pre the first session, and then we go through an exercise that helps people self-valid because that's one of the rules as a certified practitioner is people have to self-validate, you know, whether they're an introvert or an extrovert and whether they're more, you know, sensing or intuition, right? They have to self-validate for themselves. And then we actually hand out these results to people. and it's very, very cool to watch people get this document that tells them about how they're wired and how fascinating it is to see people say, wow, it's like reading my horoscope, you know,

I didn't, now it makes sense why I do this or why this person gets mad at me because of this, right? But I think I wanted to get your thoughts on assessments like those, right? And there's tons of them out there. You know, Myersburg just happens to be the one that I'm. certified in, but I know there's disc and there's the enneagram and there's tons of them. So what are your thoughts on these types of assessments in kind of giving people that foundation of self-awareness? Great question.

Great question, Jordan. So I'm also qualified to administer the Myers-Briggs type indicator. And I think about that and other assessments. What I find is they are great tools if people are open to recognizing the value of the tool. What I mean by that, you talk about their great openings to self-awareness. And for anyone that's familiar with the concept of emotional intelligence, self-awareness is the foundation, right? Because you can't change what you don't notice. And the first person you need to notice about is yourself.

So if a tool like a Myers-Briggs suddenly gives me insight as to, oh, maybe that's why I have these preferences, why I have this, then I think they're great opportunities because what they do is they start making what for many people is unconscious. they start to become conscious about it. And why it's so important to go from unconsciousness to consciousness about anything is because as long as things stay unconscious, you can't repeat them, which means you can't grow them, you can't scale them, you can't predict them. And a big part of leadership development is intentionality. So if I know why I do what I do, then I can do it again on cue, on demand. And if I'm unconscious, then I get lucky once or twice.

So I think they're great in that capacity where I think think we run short when it comes to assessments is when people start to use them as a label or a crutch where people say, oh, well, what do you expect? He's an introvert. Or I can't do that because I'm an introvert. Or, well, there's such a feeler. And suddenly we're throwing these, realizing all of these, these are just labels and they're just preferences. The fact is, we all have capacity for all these different dimensions. And also for many of the personality profile assessments, they say nothing about the skill level you have at any of these things. So let's face it, there are ENFP Nobel Prize winners, and there are ENFP murderers on death row.

So just understanding we have to put these assessments into their proper context. And as soon as we start to see them as a two-dimensional label, then it's not really serving the intention in which I think they're valuable in any way. I love that. Yeah, and it's very well said because that's one thing I tell people in classes, you are way more than your type. Your type gives you context. And like you said, maybe you didn't realize it before and now you do. And that opens up a lot of windows, right? And you brought up, you brought up emotional intelligence, right? Self-awareness is that foundation. And then it's like, okay, now that I'm aware that I do these, how do I manage them and how do I show up in relationships and in social settings, right, the other buckets of EQ.

And one thing I've noticed about EQ, and I would love to get your take on this. So, you know, I grew up with a mom that dealt with a lot of adversity. She was born with one lung, right? And this is back in 58, born with one lung. Back then they said, you know what? You're probably going to live to be 18. You definitely won't have any kids. I mean, this is just kind of, it was one of those sucks that happened, you know?

And she ended up raising five boys and, living to 54 so she did really well with the the you know hand of card she was dealt you know I think about her life and the adversity that that she went through in raising five boys and all the the struggles and not being able to work and all those different things but she did it with such a grace she did it with with the smile and she did it with teaching us kindness and empathy and all these amazing things that have really helped me along my journey and it and it really has made me think about adversity. And I almost feel like when people go through adversity, it actually, it's not a weakness. It actually gives them this great strength and it gives them this heightened level of EQ because of

what they've experienced. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Oh, I completely agree with you, Jordan, around that sense of adversity providing these strengths. You know, I had a mentor who told me once, you know, sometimes from our deepest, we'll call them wounds, out of our deepest wounds come our greatest gifts. And I think the reason that when people suffer through great trials and adversity, why that is such a catalyst towards EQ emotional intelligence, I have a colleague Tasha Urick, and she's got a really well-known book called Insight, where she really dives into the subject of self-awareness. And in her book, she talks about the fact that oftentimes, you know, people like homeostasis. We like things to stay the same. We like the status quo. However, there are events in our

lives that Tasha in her book calls alarm clock events. You know, when that alarm goes off, where it's this wake-up call, it's like, hey, things need to change. And so some of those events, she calls earthquake events, those crises, things that shake us to our core. And I think, frankly, the entire planet is going through one of those earthquake events right now with COVID-19 in this pandemic, where a lot of people are now questioning just about everything, because your treadmill of busy, busyness has stopped, and you have to stop and check out like, whoa, what are my values? What's really important? And we're all being faced with life and death, literally day to day. So these alarm clock events have gone on, and for now, we're all experiencing

them. But I think for people who have been through adversity, and if you talk to anyone who's been an addict or has gone through the whole 12-step recovery process, many of them will talk about a hitting bottom moment where they just realized, I need to change, right? I can't do it like this anymore. And that's what set them on the road to recovery. In many ways, ways, I think anyone who's been through great trauma or crisis or adversity, they've had that hit bottom moment built into the system for them, right? They didn't necessarily choose it, but they made the best out of it, right? They made the best lemonade they could out of the lemons that they were give. You talked about the hand that your mom was dealt. And so I think that having those

deep trials and tribulations can be such a catalyst for growth, as, you know, certainly came for me. it came out of my own childhood with my mom and my grandmother for you. You look at the gifts of empathy that you got from your mom. So there's some great gifts that come out of these otherwise very challenging experiences. Absolutely. Very well said. Well, listen, and this has been amazing. It's been cool getting to really take a deep dive into who you are and learn about your journey. And I would love for you to share with the audience, the title of your book, where they can find it. And then also the best places, you know, if they listen to this episode, they're like, you know what, that sounds like a guy I need to get in touch with as it relates to leadership. So share with us also the best places to find you.

For sure, Jordan. So easiest place to find me is to go to the book's website because it's easier to spell than my name, which is www. cracking the leadership code.com spelled exactly the way it sounds. That'll take you to the book page. You'll learn all about the book there. You can also download the first chapter of the book as a preview to check it out. And then that page is actually connected to the Alanhunkins.com website. And from there, you can click around and navigate the whole website.

You can learn all about the other services that I offer because I do coaching and training and speaking and consulting, either individually or with groups or organizations to help them to become better leaders. You can also, there's a link to from there. You can connect with me on LinkedIn where I post lots of content. You can contact me directly if you have questions. I love to hear from people and to see what's up with them. There are challenges.

We can always set up a discovery call and you can learn more about me. So yeah, www. Cracking the Leadership Code.com. All right, perfect. Well, hey, I really appreciate your, you taking the time today and being on the show. And I know people are going to find this episode helpful. So I'm sure they'll be reaching out. Thanks so much, Jordan.

It's been a real pleasure to be with you today. Thanks. Thanks so much. Hey, thanks so much for listening to that episode with Alon Hunkins. Make sure to check out all of his info over in the show notes. Maybe you want to grab a copy of his book or check out his website for all the different types of training and speaking engagements that he offers. So definitely make sure to connect with him on LinkedIn as well. He's been growing a really, really massive network on that platform.

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