Blind Plea - Introducing: When It Clicked

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

What’s it like to spend years in a state penitentiary and then make it big in Hollywood? What makes a death row warden become a leading voice in prison reform? How does a conservative Christian in the deep South decide we can’t incarcerate our way out of a drug crisis? For all of these people, they had a moment when their thinking about justice and safety changed. In this series, host Ana Zamora – founder of The Just Trust – sits down with business leaders, advocates, actors, artists, and unexpected changemakers to learn about when it all clicked for them, and what they’re doing about it.  You’re about to hear an episode from When It Clicked, focusing on the transformative power of art within the justice system. For Clarence Maclin, the answer unfolded during his incarceration at Sing Sing Correctional Facility. Through a program called Rehabilitation Through the Arts, he used theater as a way to process trauma onstage and off. Now starring in the A24 film "Sing Sing", Clarence tells us what it was like acting out his own story on the big screen. Plus, how a more compassionate justice system doesn’t just transform the lives of incarcerated people – it strengthens society when they return as productive, creative and empowered community members. To hear more of When It Clicked, head to https://lemonada.lnk.to/WhenItClickedfdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Welcome to When It Clicked. I'm your host, Ana Zamora, founder and CEO of the Just Trust, an organization fighting for a criminal justice system that works better for all of us. In this series, I'm talking to people from all walks of life to ask why they're working to transform our justice system. We may come to this issue for very different reasons, but ultimately, we all want the same thing, to create safety and opportunities for all.

Some of my guests have made mistakes in the past and have been to prison. Some have a family member who has been to prison, like I do. And others are driven by human rights, racial justice, faith or economics. Whatever their reason, all are welcome at this table. 17 years. That's how long Clarence Macklin lived behind bars, in prison. Now he's got a breakout role in Sing Sing, a new film from A2424 where he plays a very familiar character, himself. In his own life and in the movie, Clarence happened upon a theater program that would

change his life forever. I'm so excited for Clarence to share his story with you, particularly about when it all clicked for him, when he realized through his acting that something else was possible. It's a lesson in looking inward, finding yourself by being someone else, and the unconventional idea that should be way more conventional. Treating incarcerated people like people can change everything. Clarence's story, from prison to the big screen, is more than a personal triumph. It's also a blueprint for a better, more compassionate justice system.

Okay, let's get into my conversation with Clarence. So I want to start off at the beginning. Growing up, what were you taught about right and wrong, and what did you think about the criminal justice system? Well, growing up, I was taught right and wrong by my mother. And she was really stern about it, raising three boys on her own. She had a real solid moral compass,

coming from the South and coming from the church and moving to New York for economic reasons. But she never left. She never deviated from her values and her morals and her principles. So coming up, I pretty much knew right from wrong. It's just that circumstances put you in a situation where you compromise what you know. And that's what it was because my mother never taught me wrong or taught me bad behavior. Those things I picked up along the way. Do you have some memories or some stories that you can share about kind of a moment or some moments when you started to veer away from that path that your mom had taught you and tried to put you on?

Yeah, I can remember vividly one evening where it was really, really challenged. The morals and principles that my mother had given me were challenged by circumstances. And it was the evening of the blackout in 1977, I believe. That evening, everybody in my building, everybody was going to Luke and Robin's still. My mother was like, no, we don't do that. We don't do that. And I was tempted because everybody was going, but mom had such a firm grip on me at that time that I never, I never bet you far

from what she predicted was right. Sounds like you had a really great mom. Yeah, yeah. So it's no secret that you spent some time in prison. Yes. Inside, if you're comfortable, can you talk a little bit about how that became part of your story? Well, before I went into Sing Sing, I was living in North Carolina, Rocky Mountain,

North Carolina. Hey, that's where I live. Are you? Really? Yeah. I was living in Rocky Mountain, North Carolina. I lived on Sportsman's Trail. Yeah, I lived right over there.

On Sportsman's Trail, Rocky Mountain. Me and my son's mother and my daughter's mother. And, you know, I had a little, I came to New York to do some school shopping for my brother's kid and got caught up in a robbery case, you know? Wow, I didn't know that. So what were those early days at Sing Sing like for you? So Sing Sing, my early days, you know, I was already bucking the system already, like, you know,

still living outside, might as well be the beast they want me to be. So I just started, you know what I mean, doing what I do. Being in the yard and gravitating towards the negative aspects of our culture, our history, our music and all the things that we invest so much time in, but there's also a negative aspect to certain things. And I was gravitating more to that in a resentful way, being resentful. and coming across the arts, coming across rehabilitation through arts, actually turned back on that artistic youth

that I used to be because long before this, I liked to draw, I liked to paint, I liked to create with my hands. And that led me into doing graffiti, writing graffiti on the trains. That led me into doing graffiti, writing graffiti on a train. That led me into taking the comic book characters and drawing the comic book characters and creating my own little stories with them.

But that too was considered like a nerd, a nerd in my neighborhood. You know? Growing up in Mount Vernon, you know, growing up in Mount Vernon, New York, that would be still considered kind of like nerdy behavior. So, I gravitated towards the popular kids. I wanted to be popular.

I wanted to be one of the in-crowns. So, you know, that led me to a negative lifestyle, denying who I really was, the artist that I really was. Wow, and now you've come full circle. Right, right, now I'm back to the artist. Now you're back to the artist. I love it. It's interesting what you just said.

You wanted to be part of the popular crowd. That is such a common theme, wanting to gravitate towards something else, a different life, a new set of friends, and then things can go downhill really quickly from there. Right. So in the movie Sing Sing, you really do, I mean, you're playing yourself. Aversion, aversion. Aversion, sure. You really do see that harder self,

that harder part of you before you got involved in the theater program. I want to dig into that a little bit. Like, how did that feel for you? You know, you were outwardly portraying hardness. But what did it feel like inside? Inside, it felt like I was revisiting a place that I really didn't, you know, I'm glad I'm in control at this time around while I'm revisiting, because at the first, the onset, I was really not in control. It was like I was letting environment dictate action rather than now in this situation.

I'm telling the story, I am being the character that I need to be to get the story told. However, I could come out of this anytime I want to. Fair enough. Okay, I want to, we've talked a little bit about Rehabilitation Through the Arts or RTA as it is called, incredible program. You know, I've heard this great story that you've shared in other interviews about how you found out about the Rehabilitation Through the Arts program. Basically, it's from what I know, you went to a prison chapel and kind of stumbled into a rehearsal or something.

Can you tell me that? Yeah, it was a full-on production. What happened was I was going to the yard that night to do some other things. However, the yard got closed down because of a thunder and lightning storm. So we diverted everybody met up at the chapel because that's the only thing open where we all could get in. So we all get in. We get in here. Now, there's no early go back. You got to stay for the whole thing. You can't leave.

So I'm now sitting in here and I'm recognizing guys on the stage. I'm recognizing these guys from different parts of the jail and it's guys that I respect for different reasons. I'm not putting on plays. I don't know these guys from this right here. But I'm like Dean O'Johnson, I'm seeing up here, I'm seeing my boy Shorty King. I'm seeing a lot of guys that I know,

but now they're up on stage and they're in a whole different capacity and it somehow triggered. And it was a lot of volunteers up on stage. There was a lot of people up there and they were having a great time and they was creating some art. And it turned throwing the artists back in me.

And I wanted to, I needed, I gotta be a part of this. I need, how do I sign up? How do I get up on this stage? I wanted to be a part of this. How do I sign up? How do I get up on this stage? I wanted to be a part of that, but I had to wait a whole year because you couldn't have any tickets, any infractions, can't get in any trouble or anything. And at that point, I was getting in a lot of trouble.

I was a handful at the time. So I had to wait a whole year. Wow. And then I finally get in. So I finally get in the program now. No tickets, nothing. I'm good, I'm clear. And I get in and I get a part.

Somebody drops out of a play. They come to me and say, do I want the role? Yes, I do. I get in. Now, mind you, I have no lines. Hey, you gotta get a start somewhere. I'm at one state, it's an Elizabethan period play. So it's very colorful and I'm posturing and posturing.

And then the director, Peter Barbaro, he says, oh, listen, you postured really well. You gave me two lines. You gave me two lines and that was it. That was it. Now I got bit by the bug. I wanna be the lead now. I need more lines now.

Oh, I know the feeling. I'm a theater nerd myself and I know the feeling. Once you get that first line, you just want more. Yeah, the transformation that takes place in the movie of going from one mindset to another, that's a real transformation that took place with me while I was in prison. And a large part of it is due to the arts

and another part of it is due to the education that are combined too because at the time I was doing rehabilitation through the arts, I was also getting my degree in behavioral science. So the two go hand in hand for me. They just work so well together. These two programs are what really brought me into the light, into the truth of what my destiny should be,

what I should be doing as far as storytelling. This is my thing. I would have never knew that had but for finding the stage and getting around these remarkable brothers and these remarkable volunteers that came in. That was the springboard into college because many of the brothers that was in RTA were also in the college programs. Yeah, that's incredible. Um, I want to, I want to back up a little bit though. So after you got into the program, it sounds like you

worked really hard for a whole year to stay out of trouble. I did. You get into the program, you get your first roles. Was there a particular moment when you started to see a different future for yourself? I think that the most specific time I could give you is when I did Oedipus Rex.

Ah, great play. When I did Oedipus Rex and I began to understand the parallels between this character and me. Like how he ran. He ran from his, he ran from a prediction that was a set of him. And I began to see a lot of times in my life, even though I might lash out and it's really me running from it. It's really I'm running from whatever it is. I might not be physically just physically leaving. I mean, I mentally depart from that. I mentally run from that. And I may disguise it with an anger or I might disguise it with something else. But it's

really me not wanting to deal with that. So once you can see these things, now we can work on it now. If you never see it, you never get a chance to work on it. Yeah. Wow. And Oedipus Rex did that for you. I love that. Yeah, Oedipus Rex did that for me. It's such an incredible play. This message is brought to you by Cologuard, a non-invasive colon cancer screening test. Currently, colon cancer is the second leading cause of cancer-related deaths in the US, and it's on the rise in people under age 50. But when caught at early stages, colon cancer is survivable in 90% of people, so

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is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older. False positives and false negatives can occur. Cologuard is available by prescription only. positives and false negatives can occur. Cologard is available by prescription only. Hi there, it's Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This fall, my podcast, Wiser Than Me, is back for season three with even more wisdom straight from some legendary old ladies. These chickadees have a lot to teach us. Every word is a lesson in living unapologetically and focusing on the stuff that really matters. From Lemonada Media, Wiser Than Me, Season 3, out now.

Find it wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to Lemonada Premium in the Apple Podcasts app and listen to every episode of Season 3 ad-free. Subscribe to Lemonada Premium in the Apple Podcast app and listen to every episode of season three ad free. I think a lot of people have this idea that people who have been incarcerated don't deserve or can't benefit from rehabilitation programs like this one or even arts programs in general. So I'm curious if you were talking to somebody right now that said incarcerated people don't deserve a theater program like RTA, what would you say to those people? How would you convince them otherwise?

I would convince them by showing them how society deserves for people in prison to be in programs like this because these people are coming home. We're gonna come home. Who do you want on a grocery store line with you? Who do you want bringing his kids to the park to play with your kids? Who do you want? Do you want somebody who's been through theater programs and college programs and investing in themselves and trying to be a better person to come back and be a contribution to society rather than a detriment? Or do you want somebody that just spend the yard

and do nothing for 10 years but think about what are you going to do when he get out? No preparation, no plan, no nothing. Who is society deserving of having to come home? What do you deserve to have come home? I love that answer. So what else do you feel like you learned? What skills did you bring home with you after being a part of this program? One of the main skills that I learned was listening. Communication.

Like seeing the communication is not just you talking, it's also listening and meeting somebody and coming halfway, and not always having to agree or not always having to be agreed with. Sometimes some ideas may take a little more time for both of us. For both parties. We may not come to a conclusion today. And that's fine. And that's okay. That's fine.

I gotta say, I think a lot of people who haven't been to prison need to learn how to listen better. Right. Okay. I want to talk about Sing Sing the movie because it is so exciting. It's so different than any other film set in prison than I've seen, and I've seen a lot of them. And I have to imagine that making this film meant revisiting some pretty intense memories for you. Were there moments during the film that really hit close to home,

scenes that brought up particularly powerful emotions? I'd love to hear a little bit about that. Oh yeah, there was a few I could bring to mind really quickly and I'm sure you're gonna identify the circle when they say everybody close your eyes and go to that place. That's an actual exercise that we devised because we noticed that after production,

a lot of the men have a crash period. After all the hype, after being in the play, production, the applause, the lights and everything, the last night when it goes away, and you go right back to your cell and you become 96, 87, 997 again, it's a crash. So we devised a lot of exercises to deal with that. And that was one of those things. And it was real emotional for me because I seen how in real life,

how those exercises actually save lives and help men. It's so powerful and so beautiful. I love that. I know you've spoken before about how you didn't really see yourself in other movies that depicted prison and how important it was for Sing Sing to really shine a light on the prison population in a way that really hasn't been done before in the media. So I'm curious, what's one misconception about incarcerated people that you wish people could understand? Now, everyone in prison is exactly alike.

Like, everyone is carrying a shank, or everyone is trying to rape somebody, or everybody's manipulative. I'm not saying that those people don't exist in that. Those people exist out here, too. They exist everywhere. But I'm just saying that that's not the only thing that's going on. In every prison, there's a segment of population of people But I'm just saying that that's not the only thing that's going on.

In every prison, there's a segment of population of people who are genuinely trying to better themselves. I've been to San Quentin with men who are not coming home, but they focus on bettering themselves not for themselves, for people that are still in their lives that are not in prison. They wanna better themselves for somebody else. And in every prison, there's a segment of population that feel this way.

And the light never gets cast on them. The light gets cast on the violence or the corruption, either the violence of the prisoners or the corruption of the prison guards. That seems to be the only segment of population that gets any attention in prison. You never hear about the beautiful artwork that's being produced in prison and being sold.

You never hear about these things because those are beautiful people that created that beautiful work. And all the hard work that goes on in prison. To your point, people working hard to transform their lives. Those stories are so rarely told and I think that's one of the most powerful things about this movie. All right, I want to turn now to a topic that's really important to me and something that I think that our criminal justice system, our prison system, must do a lot better job, which is rehabilitation.

So you've talked about, you've talked before about how for you personally, art gives you permission to peel back layers of trauma and hardship. Tell me a little bit more about what you meant by that. What I mean is that trauma only compiles on itself. If you never address it, you're just going to add a layer of trauma on top of trauma you already was dealing with. But through art, you get to peel back these layers and live these experiences through somebody else's life, through somebody else's footsteps. This is the real reason why I believe theater was created in the first place was to show you

that you're not the only one going through whatever it is you go. You know, this is a human condition so human people are going to have similar experiences all throughout history. This is why we learn from art. This is how come we can learn social things from art. We can learn how to be better towards one another socially, through art. This is what I mean. That's not for one individual like me to peel back the layers, but collectively we're gonna have some layers

to peel back too. That's right. We're gonna have to peel back some layers collectively as well. I mean, we have our own little layers that we have to peel back on our own, but collectively there's some things that we may have to peel back in order to heal society.

100%, I agree with you. And we can do it through art. Yeah, yeah. I mean, acting literally allows you the opportunity to live in someone else's shoes, which I think is a powerful learning experience. Okay, it is very clear that theater had a profound impact on you

and continues to have a profound impact on you today. But as you said, people in prison are different. Right. And so I would assume that other people respond differently to other programs. So I'm curious, what other rehabilitation programs do you know about that you saw being helpful for other folks that maybe didn't want to act?

Well, I see people benefiting from a lot of the programs in prison, depending on how much you're willing to put in to yourself. People may benefit from a drug program because they have drug problems. They may not want to act to anything. This might not benefit, it might not address their initial problem. But the two programs that I've seen that were the most beneficial to me was Rehabilitation Through the Arts, top first and foremost, and Hudson Link, the college program that afforded me to get my education. Because with these two programs hand in hand, I began to really, really travel the world from myself, right

from myself. I've been around the whole world already. Just from being able to read about it, picture it in my mind, and then hit the stage and act it out too. I was already free a long time ago. It's amazing. Now I want to talk about another thing that I'm really interested in understanding better and that my organization, the Just Trust, looks at a lot, which is this idea that people should be held accountable for their actions. But I think that we need to think very differently about what accountability is and how

it happens. I don't personally believe that accountability always just equals punishment. So I'm curious, what does true accountability mean to you? And how can our prison system actually help people choose a different path like you did instead of just punishing them? I think education with me for me is going to always be the first step in any type of anybody taking accountability for their own actions. Because if you don't really,

if you really don't understand, if you really don't understand the value of what you did or the value of what you took, then it's gonna be really hard for you to really be accountable because you have no value. You don't have the value system intact. That has to be addressed first. Not to say that anyone gets off the hook

because you don't know. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying punishment, of course, because we all grown and we always have to have, but levels of punishment, after certain levels of punishment, you only gonna make a person numb. And if that's what you're looking for, you want a zombie to come home, somebody that is capable of doing anything under the sun with no moral compass at all. I don't

think that's what we need. I think that we need, in order to even approach accountability, we have to make sure that everybody is mentally culpable for accountability. That's right. You know, we got to expand this community. We got to bring these walls down because even though the community inside prison is a part of this community too. That's right. It's just a microcosm of a macrocosm.

That's right. And it also happens to be mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters. So it's literally part of our family. Everybody is connected. There's no way you're just gonna, you can't just lock them up, leave them over there. And you think everyone's gonna forget about this.

That's not how this is gonna work. We're part of the community too. celebrating the brilliance and artistry of some of the most iconic black women in entertainment. I'm honored to have been in conversation with powerhouses such as Sheryl Lee Ralph, Jennifer Lewis, Debbie Allen, and more. Now, in these conversations, we discuss process, their journey, and how they became the incredible women they are today. Legacy Talk from Hillman Grad and Lemonade Media is out November 12th on all platforms. entire chapters you can listen to. Your next listen is out November 11th wherever you get your podcasts. What did it feel like watching this movie and seeing your own story depicted on the big screen? What does that feel like? Oh man it's crazy to see it to see people, to see people, to see people, the way people are receiving it is so crazy. I snuck to the Angelica one time to watch the movie.

I sat in the back and I'm watching people as they come by. So certain people are like, that look like him. That looks like him. And then one lady comes up and she shakes my hand. She says, you did a great job in the movie. And after that I was swarmed. Now I'm taking pictures, I'm talking to people, everybody's loving it.

And that was one of the best feelings to just be, to be able to cause those types of emotions to make people really enjoy themselves, you know, in that story, to get lost in my story. Yeah. You know? And do you think, or have you heard from people, that watching Sing Sing and seeing your story

has helped them change their mind about prison? Yes, I've had people tell me, like, they hit my own Instagram, and they tell me that they already had a loved one that's locked up, an uncle I believe. He's locked up for a number of years. They didn't go see him. They wrote him off.

Nobody checked him for him. So now after the movie, they said, hold up, let me go check and see what he's doing. Let me just go see. And after you go see him, you find a totally different man here now. You found that man that you always wanted him to be. But you wrote him off.

And after the movie, but see those type of connecting stories are the ones we do it for. That's right. I love hearing that. Okay, throughout this conversation, I've noticed a really important theme here, which is storytelling.

And it is clearly very important to you and you're a natural storyteller, especially when stories can make positive change and shine a light on people who don't always get the spotlight. Right. So when you think about what's next, what kind of stories do you want to start telling moving forward? Oh, man, you know, I want to do I want to do a little bit of everything. I want to do some Western.

I want to do some I want to everything. I wanna do some Western. I wanna do some Shakespeare. I wanna do a romantic comedy. I wanna do it all. You wanna do it all. If you need any help with the Shakespeare, I'm your gal. Please call on me. All right, my friend, before we wrap up, I just gotta ask one last question.

Yeah. Which is what was it like to work with Coleman Domingo? And now to be a star yourself walking on red carpets. I mean, tell me about what Hollywood life is like. And listen, Coleman Domingo is a true gentleman, man. He's a great guy from the beginning, from the door. I mean, when we first met, we met over Zooms. We was, we met over Zoom, got, we bonded,

got to know one another, even did a few like rehearsals of scripts over Zoom. And what convinced me was I would be in New York, he's in LA driving the car and I'm going through, I can't, I'm getting stuck on the line or whatever. And he'll pull over to the side of the road to help me get through that. And then, so that type of commitment

and dedication gotta be met. Like you can't just let him be the only one doing. And plus, you know, his birthday is the day before mine. It's November 28th, November 29th. So it's like- I'm November 27th. Get out. November 27th, 28th, 29th.

Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Sagittarius in the house. Yes, it's a sad thing. Well, it sounds like Coleman is not only an exceptional actor, which he is, I'm such a fan, but it sounds like he is

an incredibly decent human being and really committed. So that's great to hear. And very creative, like always creating. And he's a great guy. Nice. Oh, thank you so much, Clarence. This was such a wonderful conversation. I want to keep talking to you, but we're at time.

And that was amazing. Oh, thank you so much for having me. Thanks for listening to When It Clicked. You can learn more about rehabilitation through the arts at rta-arts.org and I encourage you to go see Sing Sing wherever you can. When It Clicked is a production of Lemonada Media and The Just Trust. I'm your host Anna Zamora. Hannah Boomershine is our producer. Muna Danish is our senior producer. Ivan Karyev is our audio engineer with additional engineering support from Johnny Vince Evans. Music is from APM. Jackie Danziger is our VP of partnerships

and production. Executive producers are Jessica Cordova-Cramer and Stephanie Whittles-Wax. Follow When It Clicked wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your Prime membership. Hi, everyone. Gloria Riviera here and we are back for another season of No One Is Coming to Save Us, a podcast about America's childcare crisis. This season, we're delving deep into five critical issues facing our country through the lens of child care, poverty,

mental health, housing, climate change, and the public school system. By exploring these connections, we aim to highlight that child care is not an isolated issue, but one that influences all facets of American life. Season four of No One is Coming to Save Us is out now wherever you get your podcasts. Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of The Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast.

My co-host and happiness guinea pig is my sister Elizabeth Kraft. That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.