Blind Plea - When It Clicked: A Better Way to Treat Kids Who Make Mistakes

Episode Date: December 10, 2025

This week we're introducing you to When It Clicked, whose newest season focuses on what a better justice system can look and feel like. How can we think differently about accountability for kids in the justice system? Hollywood producer Scott Budnick built his career making blockbuster hits like The Hangover, but his real passion is working with incarcerated youth. In this episode of When It Clicks, Scott talks about how one visit to a juvenile hall reshaped his purpose and set him on a mission to support young people caught in the justice system. As founder of the Anti-Recidivism Coalition and CEO of 1Community, Scott is helping youth rewrite their stories – and pushing for a system that gives them a real chance. Learn more about the Anti Recidivism Coalition at antirecidivism.org and 1Community at 1community.com. Follow When it Clicked wherever you get your podcasts or head to: https://lemonada.lnk.to/WhenItClickedfdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

If there were a magic wand to create safety, we'd be using it already. But real safety is complex, and every community has unique challenges and opportunities. That's why we launched You've Got Options, a storytelling effort to show how programs like Cahoots in Oregon, the Baton Rouge Community Street team, and many others are working alongside local law enforcement to prevent violence, respond to crisis, and build safer, stronger communities. The reality is we do have options, and these stories show us what's possible when we rethink safety. Visit our website at thejusttrust.org to learn more. It's morning in New York.

Hey, everybody, I'm Mandy Patinkin. And I'm Catherine Grotie. And we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Listen to Us. Many of you've asked for our advice. Tell me. What is wrong? with you people. Don't listen to us. Our Take It or Leave It Advice show is out every Wednesday,

premiering October 15th, a Lemonada Media Original. Lemonada Welcome to When It Clicked. I'm your host, Anna Zamora. I'm the founder and CEO of the Just Trust, an organization fighting for a justice system that works better for all of us. This season, we're showing you what a better justice system actually looks and feels like and why it should matter to you. We're going way beyond talking about what's bad and broken because a better way is already happening right now. We just need more of it. Our guests are innovators and advocates, entertainers and government

officials, and they're all on a mission to help the American justice system move beyond being just a tool of punishment to a tool of real accountability. Today's guest is someone whose career took a dramatic turn, from producing Hollywood blockbusters like The Hangover, to becoming one of the most influential people working toward a better justice system in America. Scott Budnick has spent more than two decades mentoring young people in prison, helping hundreds, maybe thousands of people find a better path. As the founder of the anti-recidivism coalition and CEO of one community, Scott has helped pass game-changing legislation in California and created pathways for formerly incarcerated people to live with hope

and agency. Let's get into my conversation with Scott. Thank you so much, Scott, for being with us today. I'm just going to get right into it. Let's do it. I'm very curious about how people's upbringing shape their views of justice. So growing up, can you tell us a little bit about what you were taught about right and wrong? And what did you think about the criminal justice system, prison, all that stuff? Wow. Funny enough, I've done so many of these.

I've never been asked that question. And it's a great one. I think my childhood and, like, the way I was raised was very colored by service. my mom and my dad always made sure we understood how good we had it. And so, like, there wasn't a Thanksgiving where we weren't feeding the homeless. When I was in college at Emory, I was interning in Los Angeles. I think I was 20. I was interning on Baywatch, which was a very nice internship.

And I remember the producer of Baywatch giving me an article and saying, read this and tell me if it's a movie. And it was about four kids in the valley in L.A. who got in a fist fight over marijuana. One of them ended up pulling out a pocket knife and stabbing someone during that fist fight. One kid died during the fist fight. And all four kids, even the three, without the knife,

got life without parole sentences. And one was 15, the rest were 18. And I think that's when my eyes first opened to the issues of juvenile justice, young adults, over-sentencing, the felony murder rule, all of these things, got very involved with this case, met all the families, went to prisons, met all the kids before I'd even graduated college. Oh, wow.

So already I was involved in, like, prisons and just like, but it was just through one case. There was no, like, advocacy beyond that. Yeah. And then I moved to L.A. I started working in the film business and being an assistant and trying to work my way up and kind of felt empty, like felt like there was something really missing in my life. and then a friend of mine in 2004 said, hey, I teach this creative writing class in Juvenile Hall. I know about this case you've been working on.

Do you want to come down and be a guest speaker in a juvenile hall? And it was that day that changed everything. Okay. So tell me a little bit about why everything changed for you. What happened in that class that impacted you so much? Well, I mean, walking in on a Saturday morning, it was about 8.30 a.m. and I walked in to the prison and they're like,

hey, we're taking you to the prison within the prison, which is this huge barbed wire fence within the juvenile hall where they kept like the worst of the worst, the kids being tried as adults, kids that committed violent crimes. And before I even could walk into this compound,

a kid walked past me in shackles and like he didn't look a day over 11 years old. And that visual was like seared into my mind, young black kid, 11 years old, like shackled head to toe, like being escorted by a very big probation officer. So that right away is like, wait, what is going on here? Then I walked into the compound and walked into this unit and they decided since these are the worst of the worst that they weren't going to build classrooms. So like all classes took place in like a fluorescent lit hallway with like a folding table and chairs. And all these kids came in. And all these kids came

in 14, 15, 16, 17 years old and sat down at the table and, like, they started talking shit to each other, just like me and my friends talk shit to each other when I was 14, 15, 16 years old. They, like, greeted me respectfully and they were cool. I mean, there was tattoos, a couple even had tattoos on their face, but sitting next to me was like a very little kid that was 15 years old. His name was David. And he had a little mohawk on his head. And I said, hey, I'm Scott.

He said, hi, I'm David. I said, how's your week been? He said, it's a really bad week. I went to court this week and just got sentenced to 300 years to life in prison at 15. And in my mind, I'm like, oh, my God, did this guy kill a family of four? Like, what happened? Like, how did you get 300 years of life? I'm like, what happened?

Of course, shouldn't have asked that question, but did. And he's like, I was with my friend. he shot the victim in the butt I never touched the gun the victim was in and out of the hospital on a day and for standing next to my friend with the gun I'm going to prison for 300 years to life

and like that's one of those moments where you like stop and you're like, wait a second if this was my kid that looked like me and had my skin tone and was my son with some resources

A, would be out on bail and wouldn't be spending the night in a cold, dark cell separated from his family. Yeah. And B, would have the best lawyer in Los Angeles and would probably get probation, not a day in prison,

for not touching the gun when someone was shot in the butt. Right. But David, who was in the foster care system, now in the juvenile justice system, was going to prison for 300 years to life. And obviously we go around the table and do introductions, and every story was the story of someone who is a victim of the worst atrocities you could ever imagine on a child before they ever victimized anybody, right? It's foster care, having no one on the planet who loves you, right?

Right. And of course, you go out into the streets and find the male role models who are the wrong male role models who pretend they love you, right? like obviously who wouldn't yeah if you grew up without parents that loved you and of course it's the lack of fathers and being raised by mothers who are having to work three jobs to put food on the table and are never home yeah and obviously substandard education like all the like like you know the core factors of poverty right and i said to those guys on that day i said if you guys are willing to like entertain this idea of change and make better lives for yourselves then I'll be here every week. I'll start teaching this creative writing class, and that was it. I started

teaching creative writing in that Juvenile Hall in February 8, 2004, and I'm still there every Saturday in 2025. That's incredible. That's incredible. Do you know what happened to David? Very much so. We were able to pass a bill with my organization, ARC, and other partners, a bunch of other people, and were able to pass SB 260, which affected 4,000 young people under the age of 18 that were given life sentences. So David's 300-year sentence was reduced to 25 to life. And then I was able to advocate with the governor because David got multiple college degrees and was mentoring different kids. So probably about eight years ago, David was commuted by Governor Brown. Amazing.

Came home and now works as a mental. going back into the juvenile halls and mentoring the 15-year-olds that are there today. That's incredible. That moment back in that classroom, it sounds like it was your moment when it clicked, which is the name of this podcast, that moment where you were really called to action and moved to fundamentally dedicate your life to changing the justice system. And it's incredible to hear that story, to understand your origin for this work. I think, I think, like, when Brian Stevenson talks about proximity, like, it's a real thing, right? Like, I think for most people, it clicks when you're face to face with a person, right?

That's right. Young person, older person, and having a relationship and a conversation where you see somebody's humanity, like, to me, I'm just wired that way is like, that's what it takes to make it click for me. That's right. I think we're all wired that way, but we need to have. have more opportunities for people to be proximate like you have been. So, you know, I want to dig in a little bit more to youth justice issues. You've started talking about some of the incredible work you've done in California legislatively. But I'd love for you to explain a little more some of the issues with the youth justice system

and why it's failing our country. You know, not just about the kids that are in the justice system, but how does the current youth justice system? system impact everybody. What is your argument for why people should care about changing the youth justice system? Well, I think most people listening here, and I know me, like, if I was judged forever by the worst thing I did when I was a teenager or a young adult, and I did even dumbershit in college when I was 18 and 25 years old, then I probably wouldn't be around, right? I have a fundamental belief, and I think science backs me up that, like, young people have. have an unbelievable capacity to change.

And whether you are on the left and you have a strong burning feeling for social justice and second chances, obviously helping young people change is something that would relate to you. But I think even if you're on the right and you care about children and you like seeing people have the resources to pull themselves out by their bootstraps or you're a person of faith and you believe in redemption. Warrior, fiscal conservative, and you see that, like, it's an absolute waste of taxpayer dollars to incarcerate someone for $300,000 a year or $250,000 a year when it's very clear. The research is very clear what helps someone change their life.

That's why everyone always says to me, like, why do you care so much about young people? Like, why are you so focused on juvenile justice and young adults? And I just believe it's the population that has like the absolute best chance to change and you can see that change for decades to follow because they're so young when that change happens and I don't know it just to me how do you not how do you not see somebody that has just had the worst life ever but says to you like I want to change tell me how to do it show me how to do it that moment where it clicks and you see them finally believing in themselves, you see them finally graduating high school, you see them going to college, you see in them showing you their report card with their first A, you see them

graduating college, you see them getting released and going into a career, getting released and going to a four-year university, or getting released and going to a trade and getting in a union and making $150,000 a year or becoming a firefighter or a paramedic or a mentor or a credible messenger or a therapist and just like for the rest of their lives, giving back to people in their communities and young people, it's like, what better, what better feeling is that? It's like, it doesn't matter where you are on the political spectrum. It's like, that just makes sense. And like, we all care about public safety, right? We all want our community to be safer. And it's like, it's not just handcuffs and prosecutors and courthouses that do that. Like, every person whose life

changed while they're incarcerated, they get out and they never commit another crime again and their kids never commit a crime and their kids go to college. It's like the ripple effect. The ROI of that is just ridiculous. At the Just Trust, we're working to make sure the United States becomes a global leader in justice and public safety innovation, not just a leader in our incarceration rates. There's so much opportunity to move us from a system of punishment for the sake of punishment to one that actually centers prevention, safety, accountability, rehabilitation, and healing. Right now, that means powering innovative programs and policies that significantly improve our institutions and make our neighborhoods safer. But we can't do this alone. Your support helps us continue to push for meaningful change in this moment. Together,

we can build a justice system that works for everyone. Visit thejusttrust.org to join us in this mission today. I'm Gretchen Rubin. And I'm Lori Gottlieb. We're two friends, one, a happiness researcher. And the other, a therapist. And we are here to tackle the problems of everyday life with all of you. From big issues to small, we'll share advice and fresh perspectives.

And we'll also highlight responses from you, our listeners, to the questions we discuss. Whether it's that pet peeve that's been bugging you for years, a tricky dilemma, or just something you've always wondered about, we'll talk it through. The Since You Asked podcast from Lemonada Media premieres on September 23rd, where you get your podcasts. I think there's a through line to a lot of your work in this space and then also in your career as a Hollywood producer, which is storytelling and narrative. And I want to highlight two organizations that you have founded, the Anti-Recidivism Coalition

or ARC, which helps folks coming out of prison, stay out for good and rebuild their lives. and one community. I want to get into those two organizations. Can you start with talking a little bit about why and how you founded ARC? I heard that it had to do with a camping trip or something? So we started doing, and when I say we, myself, teachers, pastors, mentors, all came together and started doing these camping trips. It were just like overnight retreats, right, where we would like rent out a campsite

side like above Santa Barbara and 30 youth who got out or young adults that got out would come who were all like out and in college and community college and doing their thing but all the different mentors would come as well and we'd have like three days of like deep deep deep sessions it would be programmed and not programmed some of it would just be hanging or beach or sports etc and some of it would be like deep connection and healing and those sort of things we probably did that seven or eight times over like a year or two year period where it grew to like 100, 120 people coming on these retreats. Wow. And at that point, it's like, I'm a movie producer, right? I can't do this eight hours a day, seven days a week. Like, it's just impossible. So it's like at some point,

you realize, okay, there has to be infrastructure to do this because this is none of our jobs, right? Right. We all have full-time jobs. This is not it. So that is when, And I realized I needed to start ARC. This was after Hangover 3, and I wasn't getting the joy out of the movie business like I was at the beginning. But I was getting so much joy out of this. So it's like, do you leave the entertainment business where, like, you are on top? You've made three hangover movies. They've grossed $1.4 billion, right?

About to start War Dogs with Jonah Hill and Miles Teller. Like, it's going great, right? I'm making crazy money. I am in a position of power. I can hire hundreds of people. I can cast hundreds of people. Like, everything's great, but I'm not happy. Yeah.

Right? Like, do you take a 90% pay cut to go do what you love to do? The answer is yes. And I can tell you this. I took a 90% pay cut. I left my position of power. And the five years that I are C, we're the best five years of my life.

Hand down. And... Every day, instead of just like narcissistic douchebags coming into my office and sitting on the couch and the lobby, it was people coming out of prison saying, I've changed. I just need a jump start. Like, I just need a mentor. I just need some housing. I just need a job. I just need to go to college.

Can you help me enroll? Like, all of those things. And, like, every day, it's inspiring. Like, I always say, like, there's people that are adrenaline junkies that always have to be, like, jumping out of planes and doing stuff for the adrenaline. like I've realized like for good or for bad like I'm an inspiration junkie it's like every day I want to be inspired and if I'm not being inspired I'm bored right so I left and I started ARC and then like I was working with Robert Donnie Jr because we did due date together I was working with him on like a reentry project he wanted to do in Venice I'm like hey Robert I want to

start this organization like what should I call it he's like I think you should call it the anti-recidivism coalition and I'm like nobody knows what that means nor can they spell it He's like, ARC. Just call it ARC. Wait a second. Scott, are you telling me that Robert Downey Jr. named ARC? 100%.

Oh my gosh. That is amazing. And he was one of our founding board members. And like even though people probably half the people I used to work with wouldn't call me back. And that's when you learn like who's real and who's not. That's right. Patty Jenkins, who directed Wonder Woman, called me and she's like, how do I help? Right?

I'm all in. And I get a call from President Obama. body person and they're like he wants you to join the my brother's keeper board and then i'm sitting in a hotel room in new york and i get a text from a number i don't recognize and it says hi scott my name's kim kardashian west you don't know me but larry and step told me about you and i've been following you and i'm about to go to law school and i want you to be my mentor oh my gosh so it's like the people from that entertainment world that do care like they rise to the top right and so even though I didn't have the position of power and didn't have the money, like the real ones came.

That's right. And you bridging the two worlds, the worlds of justice reform and social change and then the world of big Hollywood films has been instrumental, I think, in really lifting up and elevating justice reform issues, particularly youth justice, but really justice reform issues across the board. You are one of the best storytellers in the movement. And you have very, really elevated storytelling and narrative for the work of justice reform. And you've done that in a lot of ways through ARC, certainly, but also, you know, more recently through one community. It is all about storytelling. And, you know, one of the first projects that you worked on was bringing Brian Stevenson's book, Just Mercy, to the screen. Can you talk a little bit about what it was like

making that movie? Tell us a little bit about that. I realize, like, through ARC, Like, anybody I brought into a prison, whether it's a celebrity or a prosecutor or a victim of crime or a person in law enforcement, no matter what they thought before they went in, once they had conversations face to face with human beings, 100% of the time, their opinions changed. That's right. There wasn't one example out of thousands who weren't changed by that experience. no matter how hard on crime, lock them up and throw away the key they were before they walked in. And I realized very quickly that, like, all of these gains that we had around all of these bills, like at this point in California, I think this year made it the 40th bill we passed. All of these gains are wiped out like this if the media can be used to just make people scared.

That's right. right and to drive fear because everyone is always going to go back to their own self-preservation and safety for themselves, their family, their children. And I realized 100% of the time that like humanizing people telling stories of humanity, letting people know that people can change, that's what it takes to stop a pendulum from swinging, right? And I realize this. And I also realize that, like, when I make the hangover, Warner Brothers spends $100 million marketing it.

And then hundreds of millions of people see it. And, like, you can storytell on, like, the craziest scale ever when you have a Netflix putting it out or an Apple putting it out or an Amazon putting out or Warner Brothers or Sony, a Universal, right? Or even a YouTube, right? There's just, like, the amount of scale you get the amount of, eyeballs you get is enormous. So went out, raised $75 million to start one community, and has spent the last seven years

financing film and television that can create impact around a variety of issues, not just criminal justice, but criminal justice is obviously the nearest and dearest to my heart. And Just Mercy was the first film, like, how lucky am I that the first film that we get to finance and produce is the story of Brian Stevenson, right? by Michael B. Jordan and Innocent Man on Death Row played by Jamie Fox, one of the most remarkable Academy Award winners, et cetera, right? And those three men are all just remarkable in their own right. And I get texts all the time and Instagram DMs from kids that are like, it's their required reading in school. They're required watching in school. So like it is in classrooms, tens of thousands

of classrooms every year, which is unbelievable, right? It's, it's, it's, it's, like today's to kill a mockingbird for students. It's like it's a masterclass of how to weave together narrative, powerful narrative tools like the film with advocacy and legislative change. I just thought that it was such a brilliant movie to campaign kind of evolution. We want to hear when it clicked for you. When did you start paying attention to the justice system? Maybe you were a victim of a crime.

and didn't get the help you needed. Maybe you also had a loved one who went to jail or prison. Maybe you learned about it through your faith community. Send us a voice recording on your phone. You can share your name, or not, where you live,

and a little about the moment when the justice system came into focus for you. Reach us at info at thejustrust.org. What if the justice system wasn't just about punishment? What if it could support more, productive lives, healthier families, and stronger communities. We change the quality of life in the neighborhood.

Homicides about 44% in the first couple of years. I'm your host, Anna Zamora, and I'll show you what a better justice system actually looks like, because it's already happening. Season 2 of When It Clicked from Lemonada Media is available December 10th, wherever you get your podcast. Scott, I want to go back to something you. talked about a little bit before, which is the fear and the power of fear. You know, look, we're at a moment right now where youth crime is getting a lot of tension in the news. And it's really

being used as an impetus for tough on crime measures across the country. You know, we're seeing efforts like lowering the age that kids can be charged as adults spring back up, things like that. You know, and there's a ton of research out there showing that young men are likely to commit violent crimes and that also people age out of crime, which is something you have talked about already on this podcast. But it's kind of the perfect rationale right now that's being used to lock up older teen boys and young adult men. The American public, all of us, are raised to believe that there is one intervention. that works and is appropriate for when a young person or an adult commits a crime, and that is arrest and incarceration, right, and removal from community and family. And I think that until we help the public see that there are other options that work a lot better,

that we're always going to revert back to that one thing that we know so well that's literally baked into our DNA. So what are those other options? So before even getting into like, what are the solutions, I think it's important, like, to say that, like, if we're, like, academic in our messaging or we're trying to teach someone something, no one's going to listen. They want to be entertained, right? So, like, we have to get at these interventions and these solutions through stories, right? Through the stories of someone whose life has changed through those interventions. And so, like, I think you and I know this is just like, If I look at the thousands of ARC members who are doing incredible things in the world right now, and I said, how did you change? What happened? 100% of the time, they're going to talk about a person who believed in them, cared about them, was consistent, was professional, who never gave up on them.

It could be a teacher. It could be a coach. It could be a mentor. It could be a probation officer. Whoever it may be. think just like that idea of mentorship yeah right um and care and support period right we know that like sending someone into a locked facility that doesn't need to be in a locked facility and putting them around people that are way more violent than them makes them worse right especially when you put them

into a facility with people older than them right adults so figuring out how to keep them out a locked facility and have them do the things we know that works, restorative justice, right? Real hands-on mentorship. Like, I feel like diverting as many people as possible out of a dehumanizing system. I think it's incredibly important. Obviously, we know all the things that are around housing and setting up wraparound services and supportive housing, setting up pathways into colleges and university with groups like here in California, we have Project Rebound, which are forming incarcerated students on every

campus. So they have a positive group of people supporting them when they are on a college campus, community college, or university. Obviously, pipelines into real careers and opportunity, not jobs, careers, right? Careers that pay over $100,000 a year that all of them are worthy of. And obviously, just the simple stuff, healing, therapy, therapists, MSWs, right? All of those. And when you get the wraparound service of all of those things together, you see massive change happen. Like, we know how to do this. Like, this is not complicated. This is kind of common sense, right?

And so being able in narrative to tell those stories through the person who has changed because of those interventions, not just academically telling them interventions, I think is crucial. Yeah. Entertain first. I agree. I agree. Okay. we're getting close to the end here. So I want to go back to the beginning of our conversation, which was spending Saturdays with incarcerated youth. Do you still do that? I'll be there this

Saturday, night at 12. Amazing. Where are you going to go this Saturday? Somar Juvenile Hall. But rather than having 375 youth in the compound who are all being tries as adults, we have 70 youth in the compound, who have been tried as juveniles and are doing their time there until they're 21, 23, 25, et cetera. So much more hope there, much more time to really make an impact, and it's very inspiring. It is very inspiring. I think these students over the years that you've been doing this have learned a ton from you and been inspired by you. What have these students taught you? And what have you learned and how have you changed as a, as a, as a, human being. Well, I think first things first, like, I learned how to be a really good listener

rather than, like, lecturing and talking and think I know everything. I think that's made me a really good mentor, like listening intently. I also learned to never give up that sometimes they have to bump their heads two, three, four, five times before, like, they finally get it right. And those failures are part of the whole process, the process of change. So I think that's crucial. And I also, like, point me towards the kid who's the biggest screw up and let me spend an outsized amount of time with that one young person. And they no longer will be the biggest screw up just because, like, somebody's being consistent in their lives. So I love, I love that. And it's just like,

I'll be really honest. I tell all these guys, like, I get so much out of this. Like, I'm not doing this purely for selfless reasons. There are selfish reasons. And, like, one of those selfish reasons is it reminds me every time I'm there for me to be grateful and to not be tripping on the little things in life that are bothering me or things in my life that are not going well or even a divorce, right? I would go there and I'd be like, what am I crying about?

Yeah. Like, I am blessed, right? And I think that's the selfish part of, like, it does so much for me. And I think I do so much for them. And it's like the greatest win-win of all time. Yeah. That's amazing. Thank you so much, Scott, for doing this.

I think you're going to inspire a lot of people listening in since inspiration is so important to motivate you. I think you're going to motivate a lot of people. Thanks for listening to When It Clicked. You can learn more about the Anti-Recidivism Coalition. at anti-recidivism.org and One Community at OneCommunity.com. That's the number one, community.com. When It Clicked, is a production of Lemonada Media and the Just Trust. I'm your host, Anna Zamora.

Hannah Boomerstein and Lisa Fu are our producers. Muna Danish is our senior producer. Bobby Woody is our audio engineer. Music is from APM. Jackie Danziger is our VP of Partnerships and Production. Executive producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittles Wax. Follow when it clicked wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad-free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. Two films, one powerful message.

Our Justice System needs a new story. Sing Sing from A24 and Daughters from Simpson Street are two new films. that shine a light on the cracks in our justice system and the resilience of those impacted by incarceration. And while they're beautiful and entertaining, there are also calls to action. You can watch Daughters Now on Netflix and Sing Sing in a theater near you. Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads?

Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad-free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreight. Fail Better with David DeCovney, the Sarah Silverman podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe. Make Life Suck Less, with fewer ads, with Lemonada Premium.