Blocks w/ Neal Brennan - Alain de Botton

Episode Date: October 30, 2025

Neal Brennan interviews Alain de Botton (The School of Life) about the things that make him feel lonely, isolated, and like something's wrong - and how he is persevering despite these blocks. Subscribe to the School of Life:  @theschooloflifetv  00:00 Intro 00:33 Philosophy as self-therapy 3:24 ‘Status Anxiety’ & Career Snobbery 5:30 You Will Marry the Wrong Person 11:40 The Tragedy of Baldness 14:02 Philosopher to Psychotherapy 16:55 Healing 19:50 Putting Your Wound To Use 20:40 Self-Pity 27:35 Difficulty of Changing 30:33 Love 32:36 Religion & Spirituality  40:14 Fatherhood 44:27 How The School of Life is Advice to Himself 45:49 Friendship 49:00 Neal & Alain become friends 50:28 Sponsor: BetterHelp 52:30 Sponsor: Huel 55:45 Love vs. Friendship 57:10 Ending Relationships 1:00:30 Advice & Wisdom 1:03:50 What Constitutes a “Good Friend” 1:08:50 Need for Validation 1:12:30 Sponsor: Tushy 1:15:42 Sponsor: Fitbod 1:18:27 What He Wishes He Could Do-Over 1:19:55 Being Flawed 1:21:35 American Ambition 1:23:55 Starting a Monestary 1:26:02 Panic 1:31:50 Philosophy as a Defense-Mechanism 1:33:40 Who Knows Themselves? 1:38:34 Reacting to his own quotes 2:01:40 Outro ---------------------------------------------------------- Follow Neal Brennan: https://www.instagram.com/nealbrennan https://twitter.com/nealbrennan https://www.tiktok.com/@mrnealbrennan Watch Neal Brennan: Crazy Good on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81728557 Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234 Theme music by Electric Guest (unreleased). Edited by Will Hagle ---------------------------------------------------------- Sponsors: https://www.betterhelp.com/NEAL for 10% off your first month https://www.huel.com promo code NEAL for 15% off for new customershttps://www.hellotushy.com promo code NEAL for 10% off your first bidet orderhttps://www.fitbod.me/NEAL for 20% off your subscription Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My guest today is, I don't even know how to describe him, you. I've read more of his books. I've read so many of them that I don't even know which ones I've read and haven't read. And he's most notably has a YouTube channel and podcast and newsletter and animated children's cartoon. Do you have that yet? Yeah, yeah, that kind of thing. Called The School of Life, no one's a philosopher. This fucking guy is a philosopher.

You're the only one who figured out a way to monetize philosophizing. Am I, is there, how long is the list of people that have monetized philosophy in the last 30 years? I mean, most of them have monetized them within universities. They're employed by universities, which sets the kind of questions they can ask and it really limits, I guess, what they can get up to. Well, first of all, tell people your name, because I always get intimidated when I see it. I don't know how to pronounce it. And it's a weird name. Alain de Botton.

Atlanta, what time. Okay, so I get timid. Yeah, you're doing well. It makes me feel small. No, it shouldn't. It shouldn't. So you feel like you could have, did you, were you ever a professor? No, I mean, you know, I was at university, when I was at university, I kept asking myself the question, what am I going to do with my life?

Because I... You went to a good school, right? I went to Cambridge. Pretty good. But none of this places are really... I mean, they're kind of good. They're good in the sciences, but, you know, in the humanities. Anyway, I was doing humanities

And I kept asking myself Where do I fit into the landscape here? Because I really like You know, the big ideas that are in circulation But I don't like writing books That no one understands, that are abstruse That are not linked to everyday life. Broadly speaking, because I was reading

And thinking for one reason only To be a little less crazy and a bit calmer. It was all completely about a kind of self-therapy. So you're just to assuade your own anxiety. Yeah. I was never interested in culture for its own sake, for the, you know, in the name of I don't know what. I mean, it's interesting. The other day, someone came to me and said, will you sign up to a literacy program? Like to, we want to get young boys reading more. It's like such a good idea.

Young boys reading more. Great. And then I was thinking about it and a naughty side of me thought, the only reason why I started reading more, a lot more, was because I had no girlfriend, I was really unhappy, I was really confused, didn't know what was going on, as having a terrible time. So that's why I started being a big reader. And if you see somebody who's really well-adjusted, kicking a football around, having a great time, do they need, I know it's heretical. I know there are counter-arguments. I'm just being playful, but do they need books? I mean, they're just having a lovely time. If you don't need books, just don't read. Of course, if you need books, we're out there. We're giving you books. Yeah, we got books. But

reading's going down. You've seen that stat. There is. But I think, you know, all of us, probably going to hit a moment in life when we are deeply unhappy and we think there've got to be some books out there. At that moment, we're going to be reading for the right reasons, which is to save our lives. I mean, the good readers, the really good readers, all about the motive from which you do it. And you should be reading because you're puzzled about what we're doing here. You've got pains, you've got longings, et cetera. That's when reading comes alive. The rest is a, you know, intellectual parlor game. We don't want that. The first book of yours that I remember reading is status anxiety. Oh, yeah?

Was that early? Yeah, I'm relatively early. 2005? Yeah, yeah, I was 35. That was all looking about, you know, how we're driven crazy by this need that arises. As soon as you're leaving college, et cetera, you have this, you know, no longer matters whether you're a nice person. What matters is what you do?

First question you face in any social encounter, what do you do? And according to how you answer that, people are really pleased to see you. Or they leave you alone by the peanuts and head off somewhere else. So you are what's on your business card. And this is incredibly punishing. It is, you know, we talk about snobbery and prejudice, et cetera. It is the most prejudiced way of judging a human being. It's a form of snobbery.

It's, yeah, other than judging people by their looks. Yeah, which is another one. Because it happens, both can happen. But, you know, what we mean by snobbery is taking a little bit of somebody and using that to come to a global conclusion about who they are and what they're worth and that it's rigid, you know, so you meet a cloth snob, they look at me, they go like, at the guy's finished. We're not interested. We don't care what this guy has to say. He looks wrong. And career snobberies that version, you know, around professions. It's like whatever this person's doing, we have no time for it. And of course, what we all long for, there's a deep longing in us to be seen, to be respected, to be honoured, to be judged kindly, compassionately, you know, all these things, which most of the time do not work. There's one area where we think it's going to work. And we call that area love or relationships, incredibly.

fraught zone of human activity, but we think, ah, okay, you're misrepresented at work, your friends don't understand, your family don't see you properly, but wait, we've got something, a special person, a loved person, and they are going to come along, and they're going to see you properly, and it's a beautiful dream. I love it. We all love it. But, but, I mean, how long have you got, right? The butt goes on and on, because it's really difficult for all sorts of reasons. You had a, I would argue, one of your more popular YouTube's, you will marry the wrong person. Tell me about it. By the way, I'd like to just say that you've already delivered on who I know you to be,

who I think I know you to be as a character. We've never, we met the other night at a party and now here we are. So look, I think, first of all, it's meant to be kind. I mean, it could seem a bit cruel. I don't know if somebody's going, even at their wedding, look, probably, you know, you make a mistake. That doesn't seem too friendly. it's the most generous thing you can say because really what it does is it normalizes our greatest terror

and indeed a kind of likelihood which is that anyone you're going to end up with will be substantially and it points acutely wrong at other points delightful but I don't think you really are close to someone if you can't at some moments feel this person ruined my life it belongs to love you know if you're really enmeshed in somebody else's life you will inevitably at some point think

meeting them was the worst thing that ever happened. Now, that's not to say that at other moments you won't think this person's saving my life. Absolutely commenced to you're. But it's designed to take some of the pressure. So yeah. By saying you're going to marry the wrong person, you're basically exonerating the person.

The listener. Like, hey, I know you think you're the exception. Be open to the possibility. You're not at all the exception. You're lowering the temperature. I mean, look, it's the pessimistic move. And I know United States, bless them.

nation. It was built on optimism. It was built on optimism. You know, people from tragic old Europe left behind the spirit of Christian resignation and, you know, ancient Greek sense of, you know, fatality and doom and got on ships and decided that Jerusalem was going to be built, not in the next world, but on American soil. Here, you know, shining city on the hill. And it's a beautiful idea. But boy, boy, does it come with problems. Because if you really think Jerusalem is here, You're going to be pretty impatient. You're going to be pretty disappointed. You're going to be pretty cross.

You're going to be looking out for a lot of quick solutions to complex problems. Do you think it's a different timber than European dissatisfaction? Sure. American dissatisfaction you think is different. Sure, because it's built on hope. European dissatisfaction is built on just an acceptance of tragedy. And it's a melancholy. American dissatisfaction is a rage.

European dissatisfaction is a melancholy. What's melancholy? Melancholy is what comes after rage. Melancholy is when you realize that, you know, disappointment is written in the code of life. And that's what, I mean, if you grew up in the UK, you know, this is the headquarters of melancholy. I mean, the weather is, you know, it's telling you that every,

more or less every day, between September and May. Every day it's telling you your hopes are not going to come right. You know, stop dreaming, you know, et cetera. And it's like, that's the message that's coming through meteorologically. And then psychologically, it's coming, you know, this is the country of the smith. And, you know, I mean, it's, sure, we know it. And, of course, it all starts in Greece.

I mean, if you look at the ancient Greeks, they're obsessed by the idea that the gods are everywhere and they are, they're kind of willful, playful, keen to mess things up for human beings. And hubris, you know, getting too big for your boots, thinking you've worked out how to control the world is the, you know, every Greek myth, not just Icarus, but every Greek story, you know, read Herodos, every story is about kings. and noble people who thought they had it made, and boom, the fates come in and blow them up. And that's what their obsession was,

and it's seeped deep into the European soil. Do you think your job, role, duty, mission of School of Life is to kind of be like, all right, let's be real. Because it is, I think it's let's be real. I'm going to be kind about this. And I think your voice helps, genuinely. But it is a bit like Come on

I like that Kind but real That's a very good summary I mean Our listener I like to think that our listeners Are a mixture of the two things On the one hand

They may be getting on with our lives Things are going well On the other hand they are not strangers To breaking down Three in the morning Sobbing helplessly thinking I've ruined everything, everything's a mess, it's all over, what am I doing here? This is my soulmate. This is a

friend immediately. By the way, I mean, the richest kind of, how can you be a friend to anyone who's not got a pretty good relationship with their own suffering and despair? That's, I mean, you'll never be able to laugh. You can't laugh with someone who's cheerful. You can only laugh with someone who's desperate. That's where comedy comes from. Desperation. So when you get some desperation between you, then you're onto rich laughter. and warmth, good stuff. But don't you think that there is a, some people just don't like it.

Yeah. Some people don't, I did one of, my show blocks the, not the podcast, the Netflix. At one of the shows, someone came out, someone left and a buddy mine overheard him, go like, my man got a little too emotional on that. Like, people don't really, my stand-up that's not emotional is far more popular than,

the emo ones so I and I was like oh they never like the emo stuff I mean like I do I think there's a I think there's a it's like a genre of I don't want to call it entertainment but kind of

it's a bit like reading all all reading is self help in a way but but the best kind I mean you know gallows humor let's hear it for gallows humor I mean it's humor

that you need on the way to the gallows. Think how bizarre that is as a kind of concept. You know, it's a great thing. That's what comedy should be. Totally agree. To reassure, we're all going to the gallows, some faster, some slower. We're all headed there.

We need some light-heartedness. The draws on a proper awareness of what's at the end of the road. Sure, that's what we love. That's what you do well. That's what we love. So you're in school, and then you start, What happens between 21 and 35 in terms of your career?

I've got these high-achieving parents that are basically they, no one exists outside of performance. You know, you've got to perform. Otherwise, you are, you don't exist. They were. They were successful people in the world, financiers, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, this is kind of pressured here. You're one of how many? I'm two.

Got it. So I'm thinking, okay, what do I do here? And I'm thinking I've got to do something. plus I was losing my hair I know that sounds like a strange thing I was gonna ask about it yeah yeah so I went about 19

you look better than I've ever seen you look oh that's so sweet I and I don't say that I have no reason I'm not trying to buddy you up like you're already on the pocket I already got you here okay so so I'm there at 19 all the hair's falling out I go to a doctor and go what's going on I must have a you know disease and you're just going bald I said I'm 19

like well it happens to people I said we're not really and he goes yeah you're in an unlucky five percent. I thought, oh, no, unlucky five percent. I don't want to be in that unlucky five percent. And, you know, it was a real tragedy. It knocked my confidence totally. I was very keen to meet a nice girl. And I just thought, well, I've done it here. You know, I'm finished. No girl. I met recently a compatriot of yours, a billionaire, a bald billionaire. One of us. I won't name him. Very nice man. Very nice brand. My nice man. And he said, to me, brother, when did you go ball? I said 19. He said, me too. And my response was, I knew

I had to become a billionaire. And I thought, okay, interesting. So it's quite a wound for a certain kind of man. This is quite a wound. And I thought, right, what am I going to do here? When you say certain kind of man, what do you mean? A really insecure man. It doesn't think he's got any worth. All right. Let's play philosopher, second. If your parents had been less performance-based, right? Do you think you could have weathered the hair loss? Yeah. Yeah. If I'd have If I'd grown up with a sense, look, it doesn't matter what you do, doesn't matter what people say, it's you. It's the precious essence of you that matters. I'd be fine. I mean, first of all, I'd have a normal job, and I'd just be a normal person. But if you don't get that, you go nuts. I mean, I am now a psychotherapist, and I would say that everybody I see, everybody shows up at the door of psychotherapy, has got a wound from zero to 10, and it's broadly speaking, what gets called, it's not, it's not. It's not. the nasty kind a narcissistic wound yeah you know necessary nasty good narcissism in other words that the child has not been mirrored correctly does not

have a good solid sense of self and those people you know do all sorts of things but one of the things they do is is appear on podcasts and and you know write books and things and trying to get a bit noticed you know I mean it's it's I'm interested in the fact that you went from being philosopher to therapist like directly therapist because you were kind of a therapist anyhow it was a it was like therapy? Yeah, yeah. More like a Jim Jones type of thing. Do we do the early bit? No, let's skip forward. So, so basically during COVID, I thought, oh, I want to, I always thought, maybe I need to go back to school, just for the thing. And therapy was, I'd had a lot of therapy, and I was

what are these guys really know? What, what is, what's the training? And I knew all the books, and I knew all the ideas, but what I didn't know was the technique. And I really went for the technique. And what I really realized is that psychotherapy is different from philosophy. Philosophy wants to get to the truth and the real ideas. Psychotherapy is interested in how do you get the truth and real ideas into people's minds so that they will accept them? Because psychotherapy, I don't know it sounds like a weird thing to say, but is obsessed by the reasons why good people refuse insights that are good for them. And we all know this. You know, we all know how, you meet somebody after five minutes, you can probably get a sense of what they would need to do to improve their lives.

Like you're going to get a, you know, that person's laughing hysterically and they can't take anything seriously. This person seems self-sabotaging this, you know, whatever it is. You get a picture of it. But that picture is not going to be effective unless you can lower people's defenses, build up a relationship, and very slowly walk down a path so that the idea becomes their idea, not some idea that's come in from outside. I have a therapist friend who sometimes says that she's sitting with a client and there's a window out into the street. And she imagines an advertising billboard with on the billboard what is, what the client's problem is. You know, like, it's your mother. And the client's sitting there going, well, you know, it could be, sometimes I wonder if it's maybe a female.

Nah, you know, and then another 32 sessions or 102 sessions. And then, you know, eventually maybe it's my mother. And then, you know, on it goes. So we need to come at our own insights and our own time and our own way. And psychotherapy, at its best, creates the best conditions in which we can arrive at our own thoughts rather than simply swallowing the thoughts, however wise, of somebody else. Do you feel like you were healed by psychotherapy? Do you feel healed in any way? Do you think that's a real thing?

It's degrees. It's degrees. I think I'm in a better place. I don't believe in full healing. I think it's, you know, it's about being in motion towards a goal. I think that I'm very interested, you know, if we think about relationships, I'm very interested in how people, two people could come together. Neither of them needs to be perfect, but both of them have to be committed to a process of acknowledging their imperfections and kind of almost handing one another a map and saying, it's there, that thing. I know it's sort of there.

So can you help me? And I think I've reached that stage. I've reached the stage that I could give someone a good map and go, okay, things are not perfect, but we've got some of the main features of the landscape and I'm not going to flare up if you tell me about them. I'm going to be with you on this. So that's progress.

So you believe in therapy as a very, very valuable tool? Let me caveat that with a huge thing, which could sound negative. There's no such thing as therapy, as there's no such a thing as comedy, there's no such thing as literature. There are great comics. There are great writers. There are great therapists.

The thing as a whole contains an unbelievable number of subpar practitioners. Huge. As does comedy, as does literature, as does everything. You know, pilots, almost all pilots know how to land the plane, etc. A lot of writers don't know how to land the story, et cetera. So you've really got to be careful. And I think, you know, a lot of my friends have said, oh, I tried therapy and I don't like therapy. And I want to go, no, you tried a therapist.

You went for the first one that you met. they weren't any good and you've just spared too quickly so you've got to keep going I mean if you want to keep going you know you've got to go and look at 20 therapists and maybe one will be interesting and a good fit for you

so yeah it takes time and I think also it's it's part of lots of other things you've got to go off on your own you've got to have long baths you've got to chat to friends you know it's a multifaceted thing

it's one tool towards you know a therapeutic journey. Do you think there's a value to just getting on with it? There's like the drama of the gifted child, that book of like, you must find the wound and mourn it and marinate in it and I have been a person that and I have friends that have marinated

in their problems for decades. And after a point, it's a bit like... Yeah, I'd say try and put your wound to use. Try and put it to work. I've done that also. That's brilliant. That's the best thing one can do, is to use your wound. You know, if your wound is, I don't exist, well, try and exist.

If your wound is, you know, nothing changes, well, try and change something. If your wound is, I'm so sad, we'll tell the world about your sadness. You know, try and put it to work. I think, you know, the most productive people are drawing energy from neurotic components of their personalities. And that's okay. They've just found the best possible way to handle it. I mean, Freud, that is theory of sublimation. And he thought that, you know, great artists and entrepreneurs that are all engaged in the work of sublimation, whereby they take something low, an erotic conflict, a sexual resignation, whatever.

And they put it to work and create Beethoven's ninth, you know, Van Gogh thing, you know, a computer company, whatever you, whatever your sublimation of choice is. So I think there's a difference between being healed and productive. And I think productivity is an interesting thing. What do you feel about self-pity? It's important at points, behind closed doors, to think of yourself as the most sorrowful and wretched person who no one understands and everybody is so mean to. I mean, what a lovely and necessary. I think of it as self-care sometimes.

Absolutely. You know, I think we need to dram it. I mean, no one else is going to look after us. If I stub my toe, no one gives a shit. So you might as well do it for yourself. And you might as well sometimes do it big time. So I think sometimes draw the curtains, announce yourself as on par with Jesus in terms of being misunderstood, hated by the crowd, et cetera, just wallow in it. And I think I'd rather wallow and then you emerge out of it than that kind of stoic view of one ounce of self-pity and you're gone.

Come on, we've got time for a little bit of this. The evenings are long, winter's coming. There's 365 nights a year. So devote at least a few of those to just glorious stuff. If you can find a friend and do it, do it as a couple. Oh, that's brilliant. I mean, a double self-pity. And, yeah, absolutely.

A human centipede, if you will. Yeah. No adult life is complete, should be complete, without a lot of regression to childhood. Being a child is part of being an adult. And the best kinds of adult understand this are not overly threatened. It's like, oh, there's my three-year-old. It's okay. We'll just give them a bath and we'll give them a cuddle and, you know, and weep with them.

And that's okay. that not a brittle, you know, it's when you're 12 and someone goes, you're a bit of a baby, and the person goes, oh, I'm not absolutely not. It's like, yeah, by the time you're properly an adult, because you're a bit of a baby, yeah, of course, of course, yeah, you know, I'm, yeah, a bit of a baby. Indulgent it. Or you don't even consider an indulgence. It's like, is there a right amount that you found?

Are there things you think back and you go, I felt too sorry for myself there, not sorry enough there. Yeah. Probably. It's interesting. Misallocation of pity. You have a lot of stuff, but in the wrong area. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. And it's, you know, it's often very hard. Again, it's a big theme in therapy. It's kind of an annoying one, but let's go for it anyway. You know, people will suddenly wake up and go, someone's treating me wrongly here. And like, you know, these people have always been treating me wrongly. And it can be a bit shrill. It can be a bit whatever. But there is sometimes a way in which it takes us a long while to realize, you know, oil frog thing, it takes you a long while to realize, I don't really like, you know, I think

somebody's like being taken me for granted or really treading all over me, et cetera. And it takes ages to realize. But yeah, and then there's those people, you know, like the shy people who suddenly get confident and they just talk a little too loudly. And then there are those people who go like, my boundary, don't step on it, et cetera. And you think, okay, you're just waking up to that one. And it's going to be slightly, slightly raw for a while. It's the newly religious. When people find boundaries, it's like, have you accepted Jesus Christ? Have you accepted my boundaries? Yeah, exactly. And it's like you say, you know, come for dinner at 7 o'clock and they go, no, that's infringement of boundary because, you know, I need my rest. You know, my inner child is speaking. We know. Like all good things, therapy can be abused. Like all good things. Yeah, okay, because I question my own levels of self-fitting.

They're high or low? High. But because I'm trending toward activation, I'm just trending toward like, just, it's okay, man. Like, you're still in the grand ledger. I have a gratitude journal where I'm like multiple times a day of like, this has happened for you, this has happened, this is that. So there's a gratitude journal, self-pity journal, which ones? But tell me more about your moments of self-pity. When you're moments of pity, you tell yourself life's so unfair because, I mean, just give us a hint. I mean this whole show is about like I'm terminally unique is the is the is the is the 12 step

program it's when I heard it I was like I'm so guilty of that that I'm so I'm the I'm the only one who's who's who doesn't want kids I'm the only one who just all these only one character categories and it's like no dude you're not married at this point it's about 45% of people so what do you even complain about looking back on the show, I just think, I wish I could do it again and be proud of all the distinctions. Yeah. Like, instead of like, mopey. Yeah.

You're right. I mean, there's so much unfair uniqueness. I mean, so much of misery is an unfair judging of the statistics. Because, you know, you surround. So I'm 35, now divorced, sometimes lonely. And I tell myself, I'm the only five-year-old lonely person. There's no one else. because I'm thinking of like this friend, that friend, and the other friend, and that's

reality for me, and that's not reality. But also, as happy as you may think they are, not lonely. Of course. They are, they're, I don't even know them, and I'm telling you, they're lonely. Absolutely. So we suffer from a lack of data. We just don't have the data on what's going on in other people. And you're right.

I mean, so self-pity is another way of thinking, another word is paranoia. Because in paranoia, you think somebody else, you know, has got something better, or is, you know, there's a conspiracy against me. This just comes from not knowing other people well enough. It sounds odd that we don't. It sounds odd that phrase, we don't know other people well enough. But we really don't because, you know, half the time people are spending their time, you know, operating with fronts of all sorts and, you know, how was your weekend great?

You know, and it's so cheering when everyone, when a friend has a little bit of a breakdown and they go, I've been lying to you for 20 years, I actually hate my partner, I hate my job, hate myself, hate my hair, I hate my car. You want to stop them and go, by the way, I like you so much more now. 100%. 100%. And like, thank goodness, if only, yeah, 100%. Yeah, like I was friends with this avatar.

Now I love this guy. Now I love this guy. Absolutely. And, you know, is it ambulance chasing? Maybe. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I mean, look, is it suspicious?

I must say, I've got to come clean on this. I mean, if I sat down on sofa with someone and they said, I'm really quite unhappy and I, you know, cry most evenings. And compare that with somebody and go, I'm really doing well. Things are getting ever better for me. I'd prefer the first person. Now, I know there's versions of the first person that are hard to live with. Maybe it's an aggressive form of grief.

Or proportion. Yeah. I mean, the best kind is someone who makes a joke of their grief. Oh, I love those people. Yeah. A lot of those people, right? People who've got the grief, but they've got the humor. And what that really means is I've got proportion and I've got perspective and I'm, you know, I can handle this. That's great.

I looked it up the other day. You're five. You know how many hours you've been alive? Oh. 500,000 hours. Oh, my goodness. And obviously, I've missed, I mean, the fascinating thing is we misuse so many of those hours. It's unbelievable how much we misuse.

And so the amazing thing is that somewhere in those 500,000 hours, there would have been a few hours where something good happened. We're like, oh, at last the guy's got down to something or he met a right person or he went to the right place. But like after so many dumb attempts, I mean, we should have, I mean, you know, obviously none of us want to die and we want to make it last forever. But I do think at some point, you know, the universe is looking at us going, we've given this guy enough chances. Like, how many more chances can this guy have? I was talking to Lucy about it today of like, and you, we still have the same dumb thoughts, the same dumb habits. After, in my case, 450,000 hours, I'm still late, I'm still, whatever.

Whatever, just like, how are you not? And the universe has provided a shirt on our backs and oxygenated air and beautiful meals, some of them featuring, you know, lettuce. and, I mean, nice things. And then that's, you know. The thing where they pour it on, they pour a sauce. Exactly. Someone has come to pour a sauce.

For you? Exactly. Sometimes I've stayed in a hotel where somebody, another adult, has, like, cleaned the sheets and put them on them. I mean, there's no excuse. There's no excuse. It's like, if you haven't been able to capitalize on, yeah, give up. I know, but no one has.

No one has capitalized adequately. Very few. We have. I mean, statistically, I'm not saying for our standards, but like, by human, And Stan, we're both successful people in our fields. And again, you think about like, oh, when people go, Neil, you work hard. And I'm like, I don't work hard at all, relative to how hard I could work. Relative to how much is in your head, right?

Because I imagine there's an enormous amount in your head. Or just hours in the day where I'd, I'm just, I'll be on Reddit for three hours when I could have been writing jokes that could, like, provide me with a better life. Not even speaking of what it would do for the world. I know. I know it's an agonizing thing. It's amazing that anything ever gets through provocations or a lot of its anxiety, isn't it? You know, here's a thought. Are we sometimes scared all of us of our possible fabulousness, which might shock, frighten us? You know, it's like, oh, let me just shoot myself in the foot so that things will be calmer, so that I won't have to, you know, annoy anyone or disturb anyone. Let me, let me underplay. Let me underpower.

Let me lead an underpowered life. Because it's difficult to, you know, be truly as powerful as you could be, because it's like, oh, God, this could upset somebody, mostly our parents, you know. We always got these, you know, rivalous sibling, or there's, there's so much self-sabotage. You think that that's like a, like the unspoken of? Yeah, I mean, to divert to love, it's like love, right?

People always say, oh, I want love, I'm desperate for love, and we have the whole culture devoted to love and finding the one, et cetera. People are as busy running away from love and trying to escape the terrors, the terrors of the awesome thing that is love as they are ever trying to find it. And there's a version of that in the

career world too. It's like we say, oh, I want that thing. Do you? Are you carrying ambivalence? Yeah. Let's try and explore that. You know, useful thought experiment is, if love came right, what would be the downside? And if you answer that question to somebody, you know, me, I think, what if I lost them? What if they died? What if I died? Oh my God. You know, in other words, it would be accompanied by an absolute terror. It was an analogy with prison, right? So you put people in a prison camp. There's so many analogies with prison. I know. Sailing. It's the gift that keeps me. Do you think sailing and prison? Sailing? I mean, the amount of metaphorical things, say, the anchor that drags, the wind that's in the sail,

the wind that's in the sail, the lopside. Yep. Go on and on. Have you ever sail? I've never set, but these things are rife. It's like Hitler, with metaphors. Hitler, sailing. Okay, prison. Let's go to prison camp. We'll be right back after this. Exactly. So in prison, right. So if you imagine a childhood that some people have had whereby they're in a prison and they're leading a calorie deficient diet, not much food, et cetera, their stomach shrinks and they get used to not very much. And then suddenly one day someone opens the prison door and goes, you can go out there and just have a lovely time and there's a banquet. And you go to the banquet and what do you stuff yourself and die or you just can't face it or you just run away back to the prison because it was all too glorious. So it's tough with, I mean, most of the us are in the position of, you know, being in a jail, the prison door is actually open, but it's kind of weird to step out. And we'd rather just take, we'll go out, but we're going to take prison portions of everything. Yeah, and we'll come back for the night. We'll come back the night. We'll take a little walk

and then we'll head straight back to the prison. Have you ridded yourself of any of these? Some of it. I mean, some of it. You know, I'm struck by, it's really scary being happy. Isn't it? Because you just think, what if the gods are watching? What if they shoot me for? being happy. Did you grow up religious? I might as well have done. My father was a totemic godlike figure. But no, I didn't grow up under formal religion.

But religion comes in many shapes and sizes. And even committed atheists are leading religious lives. In the sense that they believe in supernatural things. They are under the egos of godlike figures. They fear retribution. Yeah, karma is a religious. They'll go like, I don't believe, but karma. I also, I did a joke.

atheists are such smug hypocrites by the way atheists will be like you pray to a god that's so silly can i show you my vision board real quick yeah that's a pretty by the way on instagram huge argument between the vision board people and i thought it was going to be an atheism it was about vision it was so goddamn funny anyhow so you so but you have sort of

a moral framework that you cannot escape yeah i think i think there is scary gods around all the time. If you think of certain sort of African religions, you bury the body, and this is in West Africa, someone dies, you bury the body, and an absolute obsession with ancestors, what happens if the ancestor is unhappy? If you're leading an unhappy life now, it's because an ancestor is on your case. If you've got to Ghana, Senegal, etc., they're obsessed by the notion that ancestors are meddling in the lives of the living, and you need to and see a special person to try and release the hold of the ancestors.

We thought that Freud invented it all. It's psychoanalysis. I mean, the whole thing is like, you've got some ancestors and they are troubling you. Or epigenetic imprinting we also have now is like, it's science. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's fascinating. Do you, well, I was thinking about this. Do you believe in spirituality?

Is it real? I guess is my question. Do you think it's real? Are you, this week, are you inclined to believe that there is a God? Are you inclined to believe that it's not, you know, where are you? Look, I really believe in an unconscious and other people have unconsciouses too. And what we mean by unconscious is bits of the mind that are entirely outside the grasp of conscious reasoning. And is that around?

Oh, I mean, 100%. I mean, you don't have to believe in a spirit to know that when you digest your lunch, you've got no clue what's going on, but you're doing it. So all the time, we're doing stuff. we have no clue what we're doing, why we're doing it, et cetera. It's all going on beneath the surface. And that leads us to do all sorts of strange things, and that's alive. And other people are doing it as well. So if you want to call that a spirit, call it a spirit. If you want to just call it stuff we're up to and don't know we're up to, I'm keen on that one. But do you do you care about death and or a continuation of life? Do you need religion as a salve against that?

No, it's obviously terrifying and sad. Sometimes sometimes thought as a relief. You're like, you know, when they say at peace, you're like, oh, thank goodness. At times. Different moods. But, you know, I don't like the divide. And sometimes spiritual people say things like, I look at the stars and I just know there's something out there that's bigger than me.

And that's why I'm spiritual. And I want to go, hang on, everything you've said, I'm with you, but I don't say that I'm spiritual. You know, yes, there's something out there that's bigger than me, for sure. and again, relief from looking at it and it's beautiful. Yeah, so let's bring back awe, A-W-E, as something that secular people can really get off on. I mean,

let's have all for everyone and mystery for everybody, sure. I mean, so. A mystery with not projection, I mean, you just go, the cosmos. Wow. Yeah. And then not like, who made this? What am I, what's my relationship to it? You just think, if you can exist in the awe, that's plenty. Can I just have a quick message on ore and stars? You have the four. Okay. So, you know, planetariums, they're everywhere. And if you've got kids, they're like, you must take your kids to the planetarium to find out how the universe works. And you go to a

planetarium and it says, you know, Jupiter is this size and the thing and the mass and the gas and the thing. Statistics, statistics, statistic. And then there's that lovely man, Brian Cox, on the TV, and he's like telling us more statistics. Around a sun-like star, there's a planet called Osiris. And it's fantastic. And then a week later, you're like, I have no clue. I don't even remember where Jupiter is. I don't know where the whole thing's gone completely. All I know is we're really small and there's a lot of stuff out there. And you could go, well, that's not very detailed knowledge.

We don't need detail knowledge. That's all we need. All we need is it's very big out there and you're very small. So don't worry. That's the thing. And I think the planetariums should sometimes ditch the details about where Venus is. And they should just go, it's big out there, a lot of mystery, a lot of awe. let's just open that Oculus, look at the stars. We don't really, we don't need to know too much about them to get the basic message,

which is, it didn't matter that they got your sandwich wrong, that your ex is ignoring you, that, you know, your thing got frustrated, whatever. It's taking place within a setting which is beautifully redemptive. I mean, so much agony comes from feeling I'm not important enough, right? And normally we just, you know, I went to the hotel. they didn't have my reservation I said and they said no I don't have your reservation you have to go elsewhere and I felt like

you know thing and I didn't have an umbrella and I got rained on and I just now look like you know and talk about self-pity all of that right and the stars are just there going I mean they're telling it you so nicely they are saying you are a nobody but it's so sweetly it's like it's the most beautiful

humiliation it's like can you humiliate me nicely yep that's what those guys do the stars that they humiliate you normally think humiliation horrible nicely nicely nice humiliation is delivered by the stars and and other things too sheep i i was in the countryside in on the weekend saw some sheep amazing things sheep they're just going about doing their sheep thing you look at them and they look at you and you look at them and they just so don't care about you they have no thought they don't care about you know your sorrows or whatever and they're just doing their stuff so nice and

such a relief. The ego, I mean, the Buddhist had it right. The ego is exhausting. It's drumming demands for, you know, recognition. Oh, God. Having, having to be oneself is a tiring thing. Okay. Well, how do you... What's the alternative? The alternative is... Live for others. Pursuit. Live for others. Or live for, for an ego. Which I have argued a lot on this podcast, and I'll argue now, is... It can have some good results. Sure. It can have, it can have lovely results. But isn't it good also sometimes just to devote yourself to somebody else. I mean, just to, somebody else's got a bigger problem than you. Oh, great. That's fantastic. I'm just going to, I'm going to be at their service. That's great. That's what people like about having kids. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's where people have kids to get away from their own problems and to find problems that they think, falsely, they will be able to solve. It's like, oh, Nunu's lost. We'll find Nunu, then it'll be okay. And then they

realize, you know, that it's not possible and then the kid will go, thanks for everything that you did, but, you know, I'm still messed up and, you know, but, you know, whatever. As a parent, are you pre-smpathetic to whatever things your children say you did incorrectly? I think it's really important to be non-defensive. I mean, unless they accuse you of something, you know, that really feel, but mine of, you know, um, They've said all sorts of fair and true things. I've tried to encourage them to go, you know, you will, I've given you problems.

Unconsciously, I've given you problems. And I've said to them, you know, anytime you want to see a therapist, it's on me. First, the first 10 are on you. And then after that. After that, they're on. I agree. Actually, I wasn't even thinking 10. I was thinking more like, while they're university.

But you're right. We should maybe stretch it. Yeah. Yeah, five, five at least. Okay. Were there things you were bad at as a parent that surprised you? Were you going in going like, I don't think I'm going to be good at. X, Y, Z, and it turned out you were okay at that, and you were bad at something else.

Look, I was mad. I didn't want my kids to suffer for a minute. I gave them such a weird. I was like a kind of dignitary who's taking a visiting, you know, person around a country who keeps going, oh, no, no, nothing to see over here. Let's just look over there where there's a wonderful, you know, cactus or something. I mean, I didn't want to, I don't know why. I was so sentimental. I couldn't bear for them to suffer because I'd had a difficult childhood. And I just wanted every day to be sweet. And if you do that to somebody, you will 100% give them problems. What are the problems?

Well, I've educated them to expect a world that doesn't exist. And so they're like, is this the world? And we were not prepared for this. What's going on? What's the alternative, though? Because what are you going to do? Like, look at this. Did you see this Charlie Kirk murder?

Let's put it on a loop. I think just to be a little brutal. I mean, also the other thing is, you know, just ignore them. I was so keen to give them so much of my attention. So they'd go, here's a drawing. And what I should have done was, yeah, I'm busy. And instead I went, oh, that's so nice. That's lovely.

Because I thought, you know, that's what you had to do. And you should do some of that. But there's also a limit. I don't know. I exhausted myself in a performance of, you know, I don't know. I mean, bless them. I think they'll be okay. I hope they'll be okay.

My pushback on that is, let's say you. present a overly rosy world, right? They're going to figure it out pretty quickly that like, oh, this is not the world my dad. So I don't know if they, I'm sure

kids can resent anything, but it seems like a decent approach. Yeah, look, it's it has had problems, but, but yeah, look, it's okay. We're always over-correcting from one generation to the next. and I overcorrected.

My parents had 10 kids. I have none. So you want to talk about an overcorrection? I really show them. That's a really interesting one. It's a really interesting. Does everybody try and get you to have kids? Do you become a focus of like, well, if only you...

Uh, people have really sold me on it. People that surprised me that they, like, it's the best thing I've ever done. It just doesn't, in terms of things that occur to me to want to do, it just never occurred to me. Lucy has a child, so I'm like pseudo, but it's... I mean, I genuinely think having had children, loving children, I do think a good life is so possible without children. It really, you can have a good life in either camp.

Yeah, I agree. That philosophy is like, well, you have to have children, others. You haven't lived. No, no, no, no. And I also think if you suspect you're not going to like it, don't do it. Don't do it. Yeah. Don't do it.

I think if you even have an inkling of like, I don't like it. Because you really do bring suffering to people by doing it badly. Yeah, and I'm also of the mind of like, I got him to the party, I got him in the party, human life, like, okay, I got you, I got you the plus one. That's kind of how I got to where with my parents where I was like, yeah, not the best in every category, but like, they got me here and my dad set me up in a socioeconomically positive way and like unlimited possibilities or someone unlimited. Yeah. How much of what you espouse on the channel and in the books is you're talking to yourself? A lot of it. I mean, which is no argument against it.

Most of us. Yeah, I don't think it is. If you say to people, it's always an interesting experiment. Someone's doing something crazy. And you say to them, if you were your friend, what would you advise them you to do? And the answers are always brilliant. People who are doing the most deranged things, they know. what they should be doing.

And I always say, well, there's your answer. So there's a version of that in what I do, which is that I mine for my own best wisdom in relation to challenges where I'm likely not to be wise. And then you will openly leave the studio and go do the opposite. Absolutely. Or at least be very tempted. Are you surprised that you're still lonely?

Because you're so wise, or seem, your channel is, your writings are, you're, are you still like, man, I can't believe, I've been alive, 500,000 hours, and I'm still, this void. I can't believe I still have this fucking void. Yeah, I think so, I think so. I think it's, friendship is really hard. I mean, we talk about love, but, you know, friendships,

I have, most of my problems in life are, the most painful wounds in me are friendship. Right. More than romance. I mean, I simply don't have enough of the right friends. You know, I don't have enough of the right friends. I mean, my ideal friend is a clever, funny, despairing person. It's him. Funny despairing person. But I don't have enough of them. And I've got two. I've got two friends in the world. I think that's okay to have two friends in the world. I mean, obviously, I know lots and lots of people, but I have two, you know, proper friends who honor that word. There is despairing as you could ever want.

They are. They're beautifully despairing. But they're also very cheerful and great fun. And are they old friends, newish? Quite old friends. It's hard to make new friends. I do wrestle with this. Partly I think it's because people always, you know, meet and coffee shop, let's have a coffee together.

You can't meet, you've got to cut wood together or set up a room or, do you know what I mean? You have to live a little with someone. That's what Jerry Seinfeld calls garbage time. You want to have garbage time with your kids when nothing's happening. And it's 11.30 and one of them says you want to have cereal. Great. They're like, do I'm fucking Jerry Seinfeld.

Yeah. And it's just garbage time. It's all I want to have. You're just sitting there. You're not even talking. Yeah. You're just sharing. It's nothing.

But it's everything. I think about this in terms of the dinner party, which is such a strange institution. It's like, oh, let me have some friends over for dinner. And so the food. goes wrong because you're cooking all this food that you would never eat. You don't really like it, but you think they will like it because you're immediately in a problem, problematic zone. And then you have to do everything like a dinner party. So you have to talk about those dinner party things. And, you know, what do you really want to do? You want to open some humus, get some pitterbra and lie on the floor and cry. You know, that sort of thing. Or get them to help you to sort out your summer wardrobe or something. I mean, just do stuff or take them into some dilemma. I used to there were there. I went on a few. dates back when in my wild days, I would just go, like, let's go to Target. Let's go to the store. That's great. And they were like, they hated it, but within 10 minutes, they were like, this is a good idea. Such good idea. Did you have something that you needed to get or just?

Yeah. I was like, I need to get. Some coat hangers or whatever. Yeah. And it was like, but like, this is, I would say to women before and now I say to, I'm like, the relationship is going to be, we're going to watch something on a television or computer, hit pause, talk, watch some more, we're going to eat, sex stuff, whatever, but mostly yeah, garbage time. Yeah. Do you like it? Yeah. Do you like? So let's let's do that garbage thing early on. We're not going to be in this fancy restaurant where we're going on in the first date. Absolutely. I agree. So, but people don't realize this. And that's why people make friends at college, university, et cetera, because there's so much time for those things. And, and

then that's why they don't make them later on in life. Have you changed your approach to it? Like, okay, and I mean this genuinely, I think you and I could be friends. I don't say that lightly. I don't say that. How would we approach it? What's the best way to approach it? That's such a good question.

First of all, it's nothing but good questions on the blocks podcast. Go on. Yeah. First of all, we'd have to quite quickly get some big dilemmas in there. Like, I need to call you up and go, I don't know. I've met this person, should I be with them or not? I take you quite into a specific, like, like dilemma, possibly anguish.

Like, I'm scared, this is gonna blow up, what's gonna happen, you know, I need you. I'm gonna have to show some need. Like, help me out here. And genuinely, you genuinely feel like my counsel is especially meaningful. I need to help me out, so that's, that's first. And then also, yeah, let's, let's not meet in a restaurant.

Let's, I mean, Target, maybe, maybe you say to me, look, I'm in London for a while, I'm setting up a flat and I do need, you know, the bookshelves, something like that. A dilemma. You take me into a dilemma. Like an escape room. Escape room. But a problem room.

A dilemma room. A dilemma room. A dilemma room. Riddles. Yeah. I mean, it's really helpful to give people problems to say, look, hey, I'm a bit lost on this thing. What do you think?

It's so generous. I mean, obviously, there's a bad version of it. But the good version is really generous because you're like, yeah, we can get to work on this. There's something between us. But it's a good question. Good question. I'd be honored. Well, you'll, well, you'll see. This show was sponsored by BetterHelp.

Guys, shorter days don't have to be so dismal. It's time to reach out and check in with those you care about and to remind ourselves that we're not alone. Oh, I haven't. You know, who I haven't? First of all, I talked to my mom yesterday, just generally. So that was nice. And then I bumped, I'm in New York, so I've been bumming into people. people that I haven't seen in a while. And it's, it's pretty, it's, it's genuinely touching when you see somebody and then you make a plan and you text them and you're like, oh, are we going to really connect like this? And it's, uh, sweet. So, so yeah, because it's fall and it's, you know, seasonal affective disorder will kick in. Uh, and, you know, we need community, whether we like it or not. Reach out to people. Reach out to family, friends, old friends, new friends,

whatever. And, and, and also, reach out to a therapist. Look, better help, quality therapists. They have therapists that work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the United States. Better help does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and our 12 plus years of experience in industry leading match fulfillment rate means we typically get it right the first time. But if you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their group of tailored wrecks. or recommendations.

Here's the call to action. I got to read it verbatim and I got to be sure to include my show code. Here it goes. This month, don't wait to reach out whether you're checking in

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at betterhelp.com slash N-E-A-L. That's B-E-T-E-R-H-E-L-P-L-L-O-C-L-O-com. slash n-e-a-l better help.com think they do every episode now and i think they should so i think you guys are going on there and i think it's helping do you feel it guys you know i'm like a bit i'm like a closet optimizer i'm not like uh you know i i wake up at 430 and i put the sunshine on my butthole and i don't do any of that but in terms of food i don't i'm not i don't like going i don't i'm not a foodie i like good food but whatever like i'm not i'm not gonna build a personality around it i'm not i just

don't think it's enough to go like have you had that the rosemary lamb do something have an idea don't just talk about stuff anyhow that's neither here nor there so i i don't love spending a lot of time eating i don't i do it i'm not i do it i do what i believe is the right amount you know i don't like eating big lunches with people i like to eat off my lap or not at all or i'll intermittently fast. So let's say too intermittent? Intermittently? And I don't mind it. I don't get too it takes a while. Okay, so you know I like Hewell. Got the blueberry lemon and time. Can you see that? Can you see that? I did a sports drink commercial last two years ago. It's an NBA player. And the top of the, they have metrics that say this has to be the top of the, literally they start the

commercial look it up i'm not going to say who it's for or what the what the drink was it was about disappearing during clutch time but and i i didn't like i don't like this shot to start with so i'm i'm not going to do it i'm going to live i'm going to walk the walk um this is the huell blueberry lemon in time i've been drinking these they're they only got 25 calories i'm going to show it and sip it now this is the the daily greens rtd uh that's ready to drink uh this is blueberry this i'll throw these babies down whenever this is more of a late afternooner for me it's developed by registered nutritionists and dietitians 42 vitamins minerals and superfoods only 25 calories four grams of fiber only one gram of sugar here's the cta the call

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H-U-E-L-com slash N-E-A-L Did I drink this thing yet? Hold up. Hold up. What are we even talking about? This is also sparkling, which is pretty great.

You know, I like sparkling. Here we go. Ah. Mm. Okay. This is, this, I'm going to stay in the friends category. Should most people, you'll marry the wrong person,

are you going to be friends with the wrong person? Do you think it's the same? I think the, obviously, the marriage problem is one of self-deception or some sort of optimism. Look, there's no doubt that love is more complicated in a way than friendship because it has sex in it and it just brings us more closely up to our zones of madness, which all of us have.

You know, they're really, they're really strange stuff from the past. Stuff that you can't even understand, really. You just don't know. You know, you're with someone And apparently, according to those psychotherapists and psychoanalyst, it's kind of your mother. It's like it's, it's somebody that you're on a date with, but it's also your mother. And because it's also your mother, you will suddenly do X, Y, I mean, you know, we need, we need pity here.

We're such strange beings. Like the fact that we can't tell the difference between, you know, past and present, we get up to strange things. And maybe the more like your mother, the better? What it depends on the relationship with your mother. Well, you know, you can go, I really love this person and then dot, dot, dot, dot, so I must blow this up by night. just so I can suffer as I used to suffer as a child. Oh, my God. I mean, you know, this kind of stuff.

We're in that zone when it comes to relationships. And that's painful. So I think we need to... So friendship is just one removed from that. You know, you're not having sex. You're not trying to... You know, you're still a little bit disciplined with the kind of stuff you come out with.

So that's a nice zone to be in. Have you had any sort of professional friendships end? Yeah, sure. I mean, there's weird stuff in professional. There's envy. It's out there. It's a thing. I could envy somebody.

They could envy me. Sometimes you start off at the same level and one shoots up and the other shoots down or whatever. It's tricky. Look, life is long. I think maybe it's okay to have different friends, hang out with different people at different times of your life. Like, you know, when I was 25, I was hanging out with these people. They were really important. You know, this is what I was eating.

This is where I was living. I'm 35 and that's changed. and I'm 45, you know, it's okay. I think so long as it makes sense and no one's getting too hurt and whatever, we're allowed. We don't need to read the same book all our lives. We don't need to read the same friend.

It's lovely to have a friend that journeys with you. You don't feel that way about marriages? What, them ending? Yeah, that it's natural to end. I think there is something beautiful about managing to keep a relationship going over a long time because it means that, you know,

it's not the same marriage, but you're able to make the transition between, you know, one marriage and another, as it were, within the marriage. And that's a beautiful piece of flexibility, but it's not, it doesn't happen to everybody. And I think there's a nice way of ending a marriage, thinking we've got to this place. It was wonderful. We achieved this, that, and the other. We can't go from here.

I mean, I'm a big believer in good endings of relationships. The difference between a bad ending and a good ending is extraordinary. A bad ending can leave you messed up for years. you can be pining, confused, why did they leave me, what was going on, et cetera. If somebody, I mean, if somebody's out there as leaving somebody, be clear, tell them more or less the truth, you know, with a bit of honey, but basically, basically the truth. Say it early on and say it clearly. And do not try to be nice by, like, backing out the door with a smile.

No. And people miss this. I have a slightly different take on that, which is, I don't give very prescriptive reasons because I think a lot of it's just specific to me and I don't want them to get a complex about like your feet or whatever right right when it's just like I don't worry about it like I don't a good way of anything's like I don't think we're as connected as either one of us would like to be and I don't think it's rectifiable some version of that but that's that's beautiful and that's a lot more than many people get in the world these days and I also ghost them okay that's really

bad. I don't. I have it. But yeah. So I think that's good enough. Yeah. Okay. Good enough to say, you know, there's something in me that means that I can't function properly here. That's clear enough. It's going to hurt for an afternoon. It doesn't have to hurt for five years. I've also had people misconstrue the ending. They misremember it. Cool. I had a woman who was like, you were really rude when we broke and I was like, no, I wasn't. I like talked with a therapist about it. And then she, I'd emailed her. And in front of me, she went and found the email and was reading it like, I didn't remember it like this at all. It was very satisfied. Because that's how we would have felt to her. Yeah. It's a lot of people say, like, it's not that they broke up with me.

It's how they broke up with me. It's like, no, it's that they broke up with it. It's not, they could have done it. There's no good way to end it. There are better ways than others, but I don't think any of them are like, this was a wonderful ending. I think it's maybe the tail. How long does the tail last? You know, the bad ending has a long tail and the good ending has a short tail. Yeah. Who do you turn to for advice or solace? Or is it, are you still turning pages? Of course, starting pages. But I do turn to my two aforementioned friends. And then the interesting thing is, what do they do? And very often, the advice, the response is not, it's not like they're consulting erudite encyclopedias. They're saying quite basic things,

like slow down or think about it or was it really like. that or you know a few moves and those moves are the right ones and they come at the right time and so we often think of wisdom very interested in wisdom so you know i wrote some books i wrote a book called the constellations of philosophy i believe i read it sure you did so um so i what's important is that i believe i read it exactly it's not that if i bought it and you got money from i believe that that's what happens i read this book and it was all about the wisdom of six great philosophers. And I collated it and whatever.

And it was a nice book in a way. And then the New York Times reviewer got to it. And the New York Times reviewer said, this is full of such obvious pieces of wisdom. Anyone knows all the answers that are in this book. And I wanted to go, okay, you know, the weird thing is I really agree with you. I actually agree with you. I don't agree with the tone in which you're saying it.

But I totally agree with you. This, all these great insights, you know, a child could tell you, not quite, but like, you know, a young adult could tell you. The point is that we do, I mean, it's like saying someone's in dire need of something they're dying, et cetera. What do they need a glass of water? The glass of water is going to say, so the glass of water is really important, but it's just a glass of water. And sometimes psychologically, we are dying for the equivalent of a glass of water as a simple but very essential truth. So I think we've got to get over the idea that wisdom is always

you know, it's going to read something like Kierkegaard's either or. You read Kierkegaard's either or? You can't read Kikar's either or. It's incomprehensible. But that that's the shape of the truest bits of wisdom. I have more and more sympathy for those, you know, one-line bits of wisdom that seem to capture everything. You know, it's the Buddhist idea, the world in a grain of sand. You know, a whole philosophy and theory in one sentence. Why not? Bring it on.

So you agree, and you're like, yeah, that's the point. It wouldn't, the value of wisdom or the value of aphorisms or anything is, is because it's pithy and timeless. And it was the Bible, while riddled with silliness, is like, got some real, it's got some gems. Shall I tell you my favorite quote of all by the ancient Roman philosopher Seneca? What need is there to weep over parts of life? He says, the whole of it calls for tears. It's true. How long ago?

3,000 years ago? Uh, 2000. What constitutes a good friend, and can you enter into any kind of relationship with lowered expectations and still come out satisfied or will there always be a niggling thing? I'm like, mm.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I mean, lower expectations are kind of good in relationships, I think, to be able to go, look, there's going to be something quite annoying coming my way they're going to do something annoying we don't know what it is but it'll be something

I have a sense of humor about the annoying thing that's going to come along and to expect that and to go again it's not a conspiracy the CIA and the FBI haven't got together and given you somebody with an annoying it's just a thing and

yeah so a mixture of ambition and realism that's a boring answer I'm out of it. I'm out of inspiration here, but... No, I know what you mean. Like, a mixture of just like, I don't, I would get mad of one of my boundaries. It's like, you have to text me back. If I text you, you have to text me back. You like that? You don't like. I do like it.

You do like that. I demand it. Yes. I'm rather touch you about this, too. I quite like an answer back. You're a very good textor in my short. I DMed them. Yeah. We exchanged it. It was all pretty... Under 10 minutes. Yeah. I like to be, I mean, obviously, I could be asleep in a meeting, blah, blah, blah.

But generally, you know, I mean, I don't know. I mean, there are people who would just mid-conversation disappear. And they go, I'm so sorry, I was making some tea, and then somebody came along. And you think we were mid-conversation about, you know, Seneca's philosophy or, you know, what to have for dinner. And now I don't know. And they go, so sorry. So they call it anxious attachment, right? And slightly anxious, you know, feeling that unless somebody is there, they've gone away for

and they hate you. And I'm prone to thinking that it's not a beautiful trait. But I do think that a little bit. Are you been like that? Yeah, but I don't hear back from somebody in 15 minutes. They hate you. They hate my guts and I'm never going to hear from me again. That's right. I've also gotten my last paycheck. Sure. In my entire life. All of that. This is I this is it. Absolutely. Okay, we're the same thing. I mean, absolutely. There are literally people who go, I've not heard back from my loved one and it's been 15 minutes and they're probably busy those people need a medal I mean they are a distinguished category of humans but the rest of us we're going mad we're like obviously the person has sat down by minute eight they remembered all our faults my minute nine they met

somebody else and then they just thought oh my god what a loser that person is and and I'm never going to talk to them ever again and I'm doing deliberately because I just what I was asking is Because I have friends that I've said, like, I've stopped being friends of them. Yeah. Because of this. Right. And then there are other friends who never texted me back from the very beginning of the relationship, and I don't hold them to that standard.

I'm like, ah, it's just him. Just what he's like. I agree. If you're going to do that, do it right from the beginning. Yeah. Absolutely. But the change is the killer. The change is, you know, I used to message you every minute, and now I'm erratic.

I mean, it's just, you know, and then you say to the person, is something wrong? And then if they say no, then you really are in the trouble zone. Because it's like, you've identified a problem, you've asked them a thing, they've said no. It's a zone of madness, right? Because then what? Yeah. When you're saying to a partner, is anything wrong when there's clearly something wrong? And they say no.

It's difficult. We need help. I mean, there should be a button that you just press, like that. things happened and then someone. I know, but you know a lot of a time, it's just time. You have to ask some, some things aren't going to be revealed. Because they don't know. Immediately, yeah.

They don't know. They don't know that they've met someone else at the gym and have developed feelings, and they're just processing it. And you, and they may say like, no, it's fine. I feel like there's, we can work on, that to me means in two or three days they'll realize or they'll be ready to come forward. Yeah. It's like a bit of a cross-

Isn't it fascinating? I mean, again, in sort of dating world, there are some people who really like you and want to be with you. And there are others who really are like, God, how do I get rid of this person? I'm just going to, you know, and you're the same person. But there's just these different verdicts. Like, you know, something like, we like this one or like we really don't. It's a fascinating thing. And I think, again, to come back to the Stoics, right, Stoics always had this view.

Health comes from not needing an audience to validate you, that your worth is independent of what other people are saying. It's like a book whose value doesn't change according to what X or Y says about it. Like, you're a stable text. And still working on that one. Still working on that. I would imagine the YouTube channel is not great for that. Something where it's like a number of approval. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I actually don't look at it. Okay. Because I was, I go mad. I used to look at it a lot. And then I just thought, I can't. I can't. I don't want to look at it. So now I just... You do look at the comments, I'm kidding. I look at it. Yeah. But, you know, I don't look at it obsessed.

I mean, the modern world is really bad for us anxious, anxious, but, you know, because it's all about numbers in real time, et cetera. I mean, it's designed to... But has it not made you better at the job or no? A little bit. But I think there are also, and you'll know this, moments when you're trying to do something that you have to bend the algorithm. You have to take a risk on being weird and unpopular and like no one likes it. And it's important for you. And it's possibly important for the audience in five years.

But they don't know that yet. And you have to allow yourself to do that weird. I'm trying to, right now I'm trying to think of a Bob Dylan example. I mean, the going electric is it. Right. No one understood. And yet da-da-da, and then, you know, that kind of thing. You need to do that.

Do you find that, let's say, you'll marry the wrong person. does well. You're aware, even if you're not looking, you probably tell, hey, I saw just the number of people say, I like that. Do you then go, I should try to do some more? A little bit like that again. There is that temptation. But now, look, I'm getting older, and one of the benefits is, you know, they're talking about late style, right? Like, late style in artist's lives, Picasso's famous thing. Like, you know, when he's a thing, he's just like early on, he's detailing every last, brushstrokes. By the end, he's painting like a child. There's paint everywhere. And, you know, he's painting, as it were, as he really wants to paint. There's an explanation at the tape of why he started getting abstract, which, when I saw it, I was like, oh, of course. He basically was, once photography came in, he was like, there's no point in trying to be accurate because they're exactly, exactly accurate. So let me just go completely abstract. Go with what I'm feeling. And the minute I was like, oh, Jesus Christ,

of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what's your version of that? If you're anxious attached and you're you need a quick text and you need and you're in a world that's very directly numerical, how do you ignore it? By having faith that the weirder path will pay off eventually, that, you know, that you need to risk some unpopularity in order to do something really worthwhile, that if you're chasing the numbers every minute... Do you have a proof of that in your life? I mean, I've constantly written books. books that are a bit different from one from the other. What's the most successful one?

I wrote a book called The Course of Love, which was probably just in terms of pure sales. You know, it's about relationship, and it's a novel. And most of my books have not been novel. So it was a novel that sold really well. And it's a really weird book, but it's hit a nerve. And there was a lot of trepidation, like, what are you doing, writing a novel? My publisher turned it down. I mean, we all want a slight Beatles moment, but a publisher will not remain nameless at Pantheon

random house, uh, turned it down. And we gave it to some other very distinguished publisher, like Simon Schuster, and they did really well with it. Did you relish it with the Pantheon? So relished it. So relished it. I mean, it's been one of the great joys. I believe you, did you, have you said like, what? Do you bring it up fairly often? No, there's dignity in Thailand. It's just, that's, uh, that's the day-to-day business of publishing. Guys, in my lifetime, I've been on the forefront of a few different things. I've been on the forefront of mental health, talking about mental health and public.

I've been on the forefront of talking about psychedelics. And I'd like to think I've been on the forefront of talking about bedaise. I really do. I've been moving around a lot lately. I'm in, let's call it, New York right now. And I ordered another tushy. I don't even have a person I, like a guy I can get in touch with there. I just go through the website.

and I'm on my fourth Tushy. Do you guys keep it out? I know I had the road one. I've had this is my fourth. This is my fifth. First of all, they're getting better. I've been getting them for two or three years. You know why I install it myself.

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warranty you just get a tushy guys it's it's again i don't i don't here whatever i recommend like a movie or tv whatever to my girlfriend and she's like that was really good i'm like i don't recommend garbage you know what i mean i mean there's been a couple episodes of people i shouldn't head on but whatever right in 2020 hindsight 2020 hindsight by the way is a phrase coined by billy wilder the director that's the kind of thing because i don't recommend billy wilder's made I could recommend just watch any Billy Wilder movie except probably his last three and you're watching an incredibly good movie because I don't recommend garbage. Here's the call to action.

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They don't, but they have, no, no, but people bring it up, like, when they get one. It's incredible. Like I told you last year, I know a guy who, a football player who bought a house because it had a bidet. So you can do the inverse. I don't know what that means. can do you can just buy bidet because and you look you can use in a rental and leave it it's that first of all you got it like that and also it's they're not you're not bankrupt hello toshy dot com

promo code new guys um you follow any fitness people on uh instagram because i do i follow a glute guy i'm a i'm a bigger glute guy than you guess i'm as surprised as anybody even my girlfriend was like what are you doing what i'm doing is working on my glutes everybody get out of my house my point is this i don't know year or two ago fitbod sponsored the podcast and i don't know how many episodes they did and i bought a subscription guys i don't even think they gave it to me i think i straight up paid good good money for it i still have it and i still use it i don't care i don't care that they haven't advertised in a year whatever first of all you know i'm cheap so i'm going to keep my membership but also it's a good thing basically uh it's an app and it combines

and tracking and so you can you can see like what you did last time what it was supposed to do this time you can get like on a on a program and it basically just tells you what to do by muscle group by day and then you can also just go like i need a thing for chest and you hit chest you do the thing comes up and uh then you do chest stuff and and i let the glutes now i'll be back glutes it's just stay stand down don't stand too far down glutes because i'm need you because people are still relying on a middle-aged comedian to have nice glutes my point is my glutes were like a three and now they're maybe a six yeah what i do you want to know what i do i just i hit groups that i need i need i need chest i do shoulders i do triceps i don't do biceps

because they get my biceps are get too too developed i know and of course i do glutes and i'll do a little hamstring in there as well. And I know if you're a trainer, go like, bro, you got to do the whole body. I don't know what to tell you. I do what an old writing part of mine used to call T-shirt muscles. And it's super simple. And then it tells you like how many days off you can take, how many rest, whatever. And it's great. All right, here's the call to action. And I must read it verbatim. Level up your workout. Join FitBod today to get your personalized workout plan. Get 25% off your subscription or try the app free for seven days at Fitbod, F-I-T-B-O-D-D-M-E, FitBOD.me-S-N-E-A-L. FitBOD.M-E-S-N-E-A-L. That's F-I-T-B-O-D-D-M-E-S-N-E-A-L.

FitBod.com. I mean, you wouldn't know what to look at me, but I'm... Okay, what, here's a, I'm just jumping around here, so I apologize to all involved. What in your life do you wish you could have a do-over for? What three or four things? Without, you know, hurting, hurting people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. Other than Pantheon.

There were some relationships in my 20s that I'd have wanted to end better. How did you end, vaguely, how would you end them? I just thought these were these were amazing people, and I think I was not in a place to realize that they were really amazing. So you would end them callously? No, not callously at all. I was very nice, so-called nice. I just didn't really honor them enough. I mean, I don't think I should have been with them.

They shouldn't have been with me. But just a slight sense of like, yeah, this was really good. If I did get in touch with a couple of them and say, it was great. And they were like, yeah, it was great. And actually, it was great and great. Were they happy you called? Yeah. Yeah. I called in a weird sort of moment during COVID. COVID must have been the high point of weird phone calls to people. It wasn't to sort of get back together or anything. I just thought, you know, I've got a lot of time on my hands. I'm just thinking about my life. See what they're up to. So anyways, we did that. Other other regrets. I mean, look, I've wasted a lot of time. I mean, so much, so much. What I love about your work is that you're pretty openly flawed.

So, I mean, sometimes people say to me things like, but you're supposed to know, you know, you're the guru. And I'm like, have you actually seen my work? Because it's riddle with emphasis on the fact there are no gurus. No one is a guru. If there's a guru out there, they're a fake guru. And like, no one knows. And yeah, my favorite people are people who are like, there's no experts. I mean, of course they're experts in nuclear physics, but not.

Yeah. But it is like you're just more directional. Like, this is a better way. This is just this direction's better. Yeah. But I, it seems implicit that you're not following it. Let's try it. Let's try it. Let's give it a try. That's right. I mean, I think I could have been a bigger, I could have been, I've been bigger on the stage.

I do remember an American agent who said to me, you know, we could get you really big in the States, but we need to change a little bit of philosophy. You need like five things that you just keep saying. like five ways to change your life like and you just got to keep saying them and then you'll get really big and and for a while I was like oh god okay that's interesting and then I thought now actually I get it but I get it but it's just not gonna be me but you're tempted it left me thoughtful and I do you know all the guys who are really big they do have like three things yeah simple creatine creatine is something that everybody should take I mean I like look I like the American spirit when it applied to things like literature

Because, you know, the same spirit as you see in business, it lands in the world of literature, and then it's punchy, and it's like, it's got to get this thing in order and line up the three points or whatever it is. You know, your people are ambitious people, and, you know, that's a good thing. It's a good thing in many ways. There's a lack of ambition here. Well, there's the tall poppy thing, right, of you guys don't like it if people are. Well, just this kind of fatalism of like, it'll happen or it won't happen, but we can't do anything. Do you think it's happened for you? Certain things have happened.

Certain things have happened. Sure, sure. But you're being British about it, but like I said, you're a philosopher. Yeah, yeah, I'm out there doing stuff. Look, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I can't complain. It's good. But you're still, there's still like a temptation for being big in America and...

I've come on your podcast. Isn't this the biggest show in America? They told me this. Yeah, that's absolutely true. They said, if you come on this podcast, you're going to sell. You don't need to do anything else. Many more books. But my question is, what does the idea of bigger in America mean?

What would that do to you? I said to a friend of mine who was making something a movie one time, and I go, all right, when you make, after you make this, who were you going to be? Yeah. Look, I mean, it would be very good in London to go, see, I've got these friends in L.A., dot, dot, dot. You go, I've got these friends in L.A. You know, just drop it into the conversation. You know, I'd be in London somewhere, and I go, you see, I've got these friends in L.

People go, wow, that's kind of, I mean, these friends are, I don't know anyone in LA. I'm kind of, you can, now you can name me. Oh, my God. I'll give you a list of other people your name. So, amazing. My friend Bajan, who's a huge, he reads this, apparently on the YouTube, there's a part you can click and read. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Bejohn only reads them.

And he's in L.A. Yes. I've got friends in L.A. who knew? I've got friends. And then I could go, well, I was having dinner in L.A. the other day. Yeah. It's so great. Because at the moment, I'd arrive in L.

L.A. and I just stay in the Ramada or by the runway and I just... Well, you'd stay in Long Beach. It wouldn't even be L.A., but it's, like, close enough and... So, okay, so we've got it all sorted out. There's a new future. But I am curious as to, like, what is the... What is the thing... What's the Valhalla for you? Like, this... This... Look, I do have American friends, and it's nice to... I'm not talking about even America. I'm talking about the... Okay, what's the Valhalla? Okay, good question.

What's the next floor up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would like to start a monastery. So what do I mean by the monastery? So the School of Life currently exists in the digital space, so it's all digital. But it will be wonderful to combine architecture and, like, practice and community, et cetera, and bring people together in a beautiful location on a regular basis to do all sorts of stuff, go to Target, bond over things, you know, address life's questions, blah, blah, blah. Have a nice community of people? Have you not pursued that?

That's the next thing. I've taken steps. I've taken steps. I mean, the Utah desert's got lots of space. That should be the place, right? There's a beautiful, concrete thing. Or where? I mean, where do we go? I would actually suggest Nevada. Nevada, Nevada. Because it's, Vegas is getting out is not great. But like, it's a good airport, although Salt Lake City is a pretty good airport also. So an hour out of Nevada, in a beautiful location, a set of concrete buildings beautifully form with a nice architect and a place for, yeah, all the good things in life. That's the next step. What about that appeals to you? It is Greek. Yeah, it's Greek. Absolutely. It's Epicurean. the philosopher Epicurus first got the idea

that philosophers should live together and live in a community of friends and that that's the way in which your philosophy is held by other people's presence. I mean, it is difficult living in flats and, you know,

I mean, wash a dryer for one, you know, it's a limited canvas. There is something nice about saying we're going to break bread at this day. You know, obviously sometimes you want to be on your own, but community is intriguing a community a good community that's how long are you thinking two weeks a week could you drop in and out um sometimes people come for the weekend but then they might come back

i don't know yeah that kind of thing are you on are you in 100% okay right put me down for two at least and bajan me lucy and bison will absolutely be that what self-defeating behavior do you repeatedly engage in and why panic panic i repeatedly panic about things. And I think I associate panic with safety. I think, if I panic, then I'll be safe. It's your process. Yeah. Yeah. And the truth is it's got nothing to do with it. I mean, panic. You stop thinking clearly. And most of life does not require panic. It might require loss or fear or regret. It doesn't require panic. You're talking elevated heart rate. Yeah. Shortness of breath. Yeah. And a feeling of this is the end. It's the

end, whatever it is. When do you get these? Do you get attacks, would you say? No. I mean, they just, you know, come about in relation to situations. It's like, you know, this person's unhappy. Oh my God, it's the end of the world. Or this person's leaving. Oh, that's awful. Or whatever it is. And, you know, they use that word resilience. I mean, what is resilience? Really? This is just, we've been here before. It will pass. They will be dawn. I'm big on dawn. I mean, the cycles of the day and night, you know, it's like it's, it's now night, and then there'll be dawn, and then there'll be day. And, you know, it's like we live in cycles. And, and we think we're fixed, but actually, we're made of moods. All of us is moods. We're made

of water and moods. And so really, one must say, you're just in one mood at the moment. Yeah. Well, you can't believe you're ever going to not be. It's the, it's the getting high thing, where you just go, like, I've taken edibles, now I am edibles forever. Right. But everything's like that. Even joy. You're like, I'm never going to not going to experience joy. That's right. That's right. You just, you don't know this thing is temporary. The joy and the grief. This relates to some I said or asked earlier, which is like, is there something to ignoring your thoughts and feelings, the Buddhist thing? At least being a little skeptical of them. You know, I like that phrase of fear is not a fact. You know, your mind, this amazing instrument is sure of something. Well, is it? Are you getting an accurate reading of this?

To be skeptical, to think, okay, well, I'm getting a very strong sense that it is the end of the world. Okay, let me just take a little distance from that. It may be, and it may not be. Because you talk about panic, how many things have you panicked about that became worthy of panic? I'd say almost nothing. Yeah, and hundreds, thousands. Thousands of panic. Thousands of panic.

And those 500,000 hours. Oh, my God. And you just, it's useless. Useless. Totally useless. Okay, can I defend it and say, it made you prepare? Maybe.

It made you overly memorize. It made you go over your notes again. It made you do another rewrite. Is there any upside to it? A little. But it's still way overshooting the time. This is the problem with we humans. We so overshoot.

the natural need. And the same way that, you know, we know biology wants us to get us to eat. And we way overshute that and end up stuffing our face. You know, we, we know that it's good to recreate. So we have the sexual drive, but it's there all the time, insistently.

Our drives are so insistent. It's like, you know, we should stay safe. So sometimes you should be afraid. So let me make you absolutely panicked. You know, and it's like, it's too strong. It's not that these things are totally wrong. They're just at a 10. Well, they have to be ignored.

They're so persistent that it's like, you know, I can't. I mean, the way we're built, we really are fairly blunt and stupid machines. We, you know, think about heartbreak, you know, somebody leaves you and you start crying and you're sad and you're sad for a long, long time. And you tell yourself, look, it's done now. They've gone. Don't keep crying. And your system goes, oh, no, let's just have another seven weeks of weeping over them.

And you're like, but they've gone. You know they've gone. Oh, I know, but I just saw where their shoes used to be. And it's like on and on it goes. So different parts of the mind are following these really crude agendas. They haven't got any brakes or accelerators. They've got no dials. They're just like a one-note thing.

And then there's a bit of our reason that's trying to kind of hold the whole thing together. But it's an uphill struggle. Have you overcorrected two reasons? Or would you like to? Sure. I would like to correct a reason. But it's a fragile instrument. I mean, I sometimes think of it, you know, visually.

Our conscious minds are like one guy. with a flashlight and then he or she's wandering around a giant sort of library that's sunk in darkness in which there are hundreds of thousands of books in which it's written in tiny text that you can hardly read you can't read and you're wandering around these book stacks trying to work out what's going on occasionally you'll open up one book and see one little bit of text but you are you're seeing I mean people die not knowing who they've been I mean it says on the gravestone you know here was Jim Smith like no no it was a person who carried the name Jim Smith and at points this person carrying the name Jim Smith had a few

insights into the personality of the skeleton in which they were placed. But then they died and time ran out and they didn't really ever get to know it. And we're always much more comprehensible to other people because other people look at Jim Smith and they go, well, that's Jim Smith. We know Jim Smith. You know, we know what that guy's like. But inside, you don't really, I mean, you're sitting looking at me going, well, here's this guy. He must have thought, et cetera. inside me and inside you, we're like swimming around. There's no, there's no beginning and end. I mean, it's other people who tell us that there's a guy called Neil,

this guy called Alan, he's got views, whatever. We're just free-floating gelatinous consciousness. To jump around again, do you find you use your facility with philosophy and Seneca and as a defense mechanism? Is it, do you think it's a similar, like, where I'll joke more than most people? I'm good at it. I'm known for it. Do you find like, oh, like, shield? Yeah. I think, I think the honest answer's got to be yes. We've got to say yes to that one. I'm trying to think about, like, when it kicks in. I mean, you know, there is that thing.

And again, psychotherapists like to talk to you about that is, you know, you're trying to understand a situation, trying to get the idea, et cetera. And then a good therapist will nudge you and go, yeah, but what are you actually feeling? Like, you're telling me a lot or whatever. And if it's delivered at right moment, you might suddenly find yourself crying or laughing, you know, and you just think, oh, God, I was feeling something else. But I, you know, yeah, it can be hard to reach that feeling register. And because often the feeling is kind of humiliating. So you've got this whole big theory. And then someone goes, well, how do you feel about that? And you just go, devastated.

That's a one word. And it's, yeah, it's a bit sad. It's also, you're far less powerful. Yeah. you're just laying in a puddle devastated whereas you could be going like, you know. Yeah. Seneca and play a lot of them.

That's what people with a lot of theories get into trouble sometimes because those theories come between them and the necessary emotions. Do you, to the other point, do you feel like you would die? Let's say, ideally you die immediately after this podcast, so it goes very viral.

Would you, would you feel like you knew yourself? I'm still thinking about the taxi, the hit, yeah, uh, what I said, I knew myself, uh, no, no. Oh my goodness, it's only the beginning. Sadly. With the beginning of what? Your knowledge? Yeah. Who knows himself? Hardly anyone. I mean, this is Socrates's a famous thing. Why was he the wisest man? Because he knew what he didn't know. And so apply to self-knowledge is the same thing. It's like you're beginning to know yourself when you realize just how little you know of yourself. So from that point of view, yes, I'm getting to know myself. But the day-to-day sense is ignorance. And I do feel that I know subjects less

now than ever. It's probably a sign that at some level I understand the better. And yeah. You understand the scope of them. It's a bit like your Cosmos thing of like, do you need to know yourself? Does one need to know themselves as well as you would like them to be able, you know what I mean? Like here lies Jim. Yeah. Do I need to know myself? Sure. It's a good thing. It's a lovely thing to know yourself because then you can make better decisions. You can keep a track of your, you know. I'm with you in terms of habits and even motives. But I guess what I'm saying is, like, if no one knows themselves, more or less, and everyone dies, were they all, was it all wasted?

Look, I think there are more or less externalized personalities. There are people who've mined bits of themselves and have done great things. We're talking about Picasso. That guy knew about his visual sensitivity. Most of us, we don't know what other people and we ourselves are in the world of, you know, light and color, et cetera. So it's, I think that's what work is. Work should be a way of externalizing our, our kind of latent talents, capacities, identities in a given area. You could be designing chairs and like your chairs are, each one is a little bit of the inner you. It's come out of

you and you've mined that area. So I like the idea of mining and that self-awareness is is a mining of different bits of the personality and getting the awe out of it. What if a person doesn't, like most people, don't have a job that's self-expressive? Many jobs are self-expressive, not in the way that artists think of self-expression, but a lot of jobs have a capacity

for self-expression of one sort or another. And I think the thing to align is just that the self-expression is in line with what you're seeking. But, you know, you can be a schoolteacher and have a huge capacity for self-expression in the way in which you, you know, organize all sorts of things. So, yeah, we should beware of a kind of one-note aesthetic definition of self-expression.

What about the idea of, as two people that are addicted to, approval in some amount, that what other people think of me as none of my business? Because as a comedian, I'm like, no, it's exactly my business. And you're in a similar boat, I would say. Look, I think there's a balance, isn't there, between being. so obsessive that every last point lands with everyone that you end up with something that is implausible you have to take a risk with unpopularity you have to take a risk that the audience is not behind you in order to get to some kind of a bigger goal but what about just interpersonally

like you make a decision with your children with your friend with your partner whatever and they don't like it. Do you need to be fixated on it? Or should you just take it as like, I stand by my decision? So long as they explain kindly, why not? But look, come back to the point about being on stage, et cetera. So I have some limited experience of public speaking, going out on things, giving talks, etc. And first time you give a talk on a topic, the audience will respond in a certain way.

They'll laugh here. They won't laugh at them. And you, as the speaker, often surprise, like, really? I didn't know that was funny, but like every time you tell that thing, they laugh. Now, so you end up with a very polished thing where you know exactly where the laughs are going to come. You can take that talk anywhere and you know when they'll come. After a while, that sets up a terrifying specter, which is, I want to get something new in here, but I can't. I don't dare to because I know this works.

And that's when it becomes problematic. you know what I mean it could be a metaphor for all sorts of areas of life right if if you think I don't know if I'm going to get a laugh here so I'm going to drop this topic or whatever then you're on the road to throttling your creativity you have to go they might not laugh but I need to introduce new material otherwise things dead and you take it as like the I call it like the idea hole like the joke you don't like came out of the same hole as the one you love I got to try both them if it doesn't work I'm going to stop doing it but I'm not going to not do it.

Also, because you don't know what will work. Yeah. Right? You just, I mean, I'm sure you have this, right? You don't fully know. Don't fully know. It's a real mystery. It's crazy making.

Yeah. All right, I'm going to read through some of your famous quotes. Okay. According to chat, GBT, and see if you still agree. Or if they are even yours. Yes, it might have been made up. On travel, quote, journeys are the midwives of thought. Few places are more conducive to internal conversations than a moving plane

ship or train. That's true. There is this way in which, you know, religions knew about this, when religions wanted to, you know, shift your perspective, they sent you on a pilgrimage. Similar to the front, the garbage time idea. Exactly. You know, it's weird. You should be able to access all the most important thoughts by just sitting on your sofa and not moving. Sometimes you need a change of scenery in order to change the inner scenery. It's just part of the way we're built. I think the best journeys are those where we kind of have an idea of what we might get out of that journey in terms of like what's what's the inner bit that i'm trying to shift and trying to use the outer world to change the inner world have you ever gone on a journey like thinking

this is the journey where i'm going to crack this or i'm going to uncover this and it didn't happen because i'm thinking of like anytime i it's when i go for another reason then i'll crack a thing or whatever yeah i mean look there is a way in which a journey puts a barrier between what came before and what comes after, you'll say, like, I'm drawing a line under something, and part of the way I'm drawing a line is, I'm now going to South Africa, or whatever it is. You know, and that's a long way away, different things will happen,

and then a new chapter of life is going to begin on my return. So, we can use journeys strategically like that, I think, to shift things. And you have? I think so. Yeah. On love. Quote, most of what we call love can be more accurately

described as neediness. Oh, did I say that? I don't know. That sounds unfair. I'm sure I did say that. Let me think about that. I mean, the reason I didn't say that is I don't like the word need. People go, oh, they're needy. It's like, of course they're needy. They're a vulnerable human on a spinning rock. It's like, what are you? Are you not need? I mean, we should all be needy. So I don't like the pejorative use. That's not a quote of mine. I disown it. Great. On relationships, quote, compatibility is an achievement of love. It must not be its precondition. I own that one. That is mine. In other words, you know, people think the partner for me agrees on everything. They have exactly my taste in all areas. And that's how I'll know that they're for me. And as much as anything, compatibility is how you deal with the incompatibilities. That's how you reveal someone who's compatible for you. someone who when they say, I like golf and you say, I like fishing, whatever, you have a really good conversation about that.

Are you over the mind of like, I'll go to your thing that I don't like and you'll come to my thing? That's one solution, but it could be lots of things. I don't like that solution. It could be like we never go to each other's thing. I prefer that one. Why on earth would you play golf if you didn't like golf? Yeah, compatibility.

Somebody said a great quote, which is love isn't in achievement, but a lack of love feels like failure. well culturally like to be in love is to be like elevated and to not be in love speaks poorly on you which i i think it's a lot more mysterious than that yeah it's very unfair as well it's like not only you lonely we're going to make you feel ashamed of your loneliness i mean my goodness like is that necessary no um you know a lot of isolated people are just quite complicated people they're quite complex people you have a quote about loneliness is like the price of being Interesting.

You know, it's kind of a taboo area, right? It's kind of a taboo area because it sort of feels elitist in the wrong way, right? But let's double down on it. And it's really the idea that if you're clever, there's a higher chance you're going to be lonely. I mean, lots and lots of caveats. Whatever make you comfortable, throw that caveat in. Lots of caveats. But we're living in the internet world.

We need caveats, right? We walk around with caveats. That said, there is a way in which, you know, If, I mean, take an absurd, you know, if your idea of fun is to read the Stoic philosophers, if you're not going to have that many people who will be lining up to do, you know, fun with you. Whereas if your idea of fun is mowing the lawn, a lot of people who can mow the lawn with you. So it slightly depends on what you think is really fun. If you like drinking, you're on the right planet.

If you like crying with a friend, that's a bit weird. Yeah. You know what I mean? So if your way of bonding with someone, it's not. to, like, cry over the disasters of your life and existence, you might not find your ideal pal. But if you want to watch sports, you're going to find pals. So it is true.

It has to be true that there are numbers sometimes stacked for or against us on the friendship front. And just accept it within yourself. Exactly. And feel that, you know, some of the, some people you would be proud of have been isolated. Okay. As someone who is openly lonely, lonely, times can you not is there not a voiceover saying like dude what you're you're a

fucking philosopher how popular how like what do you're don't you don't have the right taste like I'm in the same boat where it's like I don't like drinking I don't like parties yeah I don't really even eat meat there's just so many things I'm like work at night yeah they cut you off these things cut you off from people but it is hard to remember that these are factors and yeah they're not they're not against the anti-paranoid feeling it's like this is not a sign that something awful is going on it's okay paranoia is such a funny way to describe it because it's I think it's exactly right um on beauty quote it is in the moments of disarray and struggle that we appreciate beauty most I think judge you slightly rewrote that but the basic idea is mine the basic idea is mine which is the things we find beautiful are a kind of repository of like where we really want to go what we really want to be take a a beautiful calm

morning and you look out the window and you think oh so beautiful it's beautiful because it's not what's inside you inside you is turmoil regret chaos etc and you look at that thing and you think oh amazing because it's it's got it's it's your true home but you don't live there it's like it's your spiritual home but you're not there yet i mean it's it's also by the way why we cry I'm really interesting why people cry. What was the last time you cried? I don't know. The other day about, I can't even remember what.

Within the last couple weeks? Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. How long? I don't know. 10 minutes. Okay. It's a long time. I'm crying more and more now.

Like, I didn't cry at all when I was younger. It's weird. What's the category? I don't know. I cry with something beautiful, and I cry when something's... I'm more easily moved to tears. Like, people tell me a sad story.

I start crying. I've had periods of it. Right. Where I cry and then I'm like, I started crying. I remember when my kids were small and we used to read books about like, you know, rabbit that's looking for his mother and then eventually finds his mother and then they live happily. And I'd been floods of tears and the kid would be like, what's going on with this? And I think if you were designing a robot that had to cry, if that was the mission, how do you design like an AI robot that has to cry? You'd actually have to give it some sad life experience. It's because life is sad and long and painful that when you hit a really beautiful, innocent, sweet, tender thing, you're actually have to give it some sad life experience. It's because life is sad and long and painful that when you hit a really beautiful, innocent, sweet, tender thing. You're like, oh, my God, right? That's when you cry. And that's why the parent is crying and the kid isn't.

Kids have quite a nice life. Some kids have a nice life. And so they're not naturally the audience to weep over the death of Bambi. Whereas we adults, especially, you know, if we've gone through a few storms, we're like, oh my God, this is the sweetest, lovely as kind of, it's total floods of tears.

I mean, there's a line from the importance of being earnest to something to the effect of, he looks so good, he must be good. The appearance of beauty in human form is so godly. It's startling, but also those people can do and say there's so much more latitude. It is amazing. Do you remember that George Orwell, quote, by 40, everyone has the face they deserve.

But, I mean, it's fascinating because it means that up to 40, you don't have the face you deserve. And like, there are a lot of options there. And, you know, we're still always learning that lesson. I mean, a beautiful or an interesting or a clever face, these are sending out such strong signals that it can really take a while to think, hang on, that person wasn't good, they looked good. Yeah.

That person wasn't clever, they looked clever. It takes a while to get that. You know, we're simple creatures. I'm old and I'm still like, huh? Yeah. Still. Yeah, still learning that lesson. I mean, I assume till the very end.

Yeah. on emotional maturity. We'll see if it's true or not. Quote, maturity, the courage to live with the reality of who we are. This guy sounds like an idiot. Who is this man? I was very excited to speak to him on the podcast based on these quotes. Okay, let's think about it. I mean, by the way, what is, I mean, it's quite interesting term emotional maturity. I started using the term ages ago, and I think I've helped to make it a bit more popular. And now it's a big thing. Emotional maturity? Yeah, everybody wants it. Yeah, I mean, not totally, but you know, I was up there. I was one of the ones pushing it.

And now everybody talks about emotional maturity is a great thing. I mean, partly what it's reminding us is that adulthood is not a number. It is an achievement of the soul. And you get five-year-olds sitting next to 95-year-olds and emotionally they're exactly the same.

And that's, you know, in the classroom of emotions, you have people sitting on very different shaped stools because like all ages and, you know, shapes are there. So that's an interesting kind of reminder. Is there a way to speed up that process? Oh, of course, there... Is anyone doing it? Meaning, is there a conscious way?

Yeah. That's what the school of life is. But do you find that if you give them a 50-minute video versus an experience? Yeah. Always the experience comes first. But maybe a video can prime for that, a set of ideas. Can help to lay the groundwork.

I'm a cynic and a pessimist on all sorts of things. You're going to have to indulge me on this. I want to believe that we could become more. emotionally mature through an effort of the will i just want to believe that even if it's not true let me believe that that's my religion that's my credo have you lived it don't question too much just like i'm going to be like one of those i have to accept it i'm not going to have you met jesus i'm like well well hang on no but the idea i have paintings of them yeah exactly on work yeah and i already i pre-agree with this whether you said it or not quote there is no

such thing as work life balance oh yeah there is only work life compromise actually It was more just, the quote is just, there's no such thing as work-life balance. Because there really isn't. The real contingent of the quote is, everything worth doing unbalances your life. That's the continuation of the quote. There's no such thing as work-life balance. Everything worth doing should unbalance your life. I completely agree with you.

That's a better quote in that GPT one. I mean, look, if you think I can in any way alter what this fucking monster saying. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, just start. You need to believe that you said it. I know. Yeah. Anyway, so that was much requite, and I believe it. I mean, it's part of the sentimentality of our age.

It's just utopian, right? Of like, you will perfectly balance. I've done a joke that never quite worked where it's like, certain people I don't want to have a good work-life balance, like I don't want my surgeon to be like, we lost Neil, but the good news is I finished third in a poetry contest. So that joke didn't work? Can you believe it?

Yeah. I don't think people don't like the premise. I think I did photography content. I don't know what I've done. But they don't like the idea that it's a it's a fallacy. I love that idea. I love that the pilot, the brain surgeon, really invested in work life balance. I want the chart the part that did work. It was like I don't want the FBI direct. I want the FBI director's family to fucking hate his guts. I really believe it. I was like I don't want you to have any. life, I want your hands to shake. I think brain surgeon is clearer. Yeah. FBI director is yeah, yeah, yeah. Brain surgeon is like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But brain surgeon, brilliant. Pilot as well, brilliant. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, a round, well-rounded life for the pilot. No, no, not interested. Please. Yeah. And have you, I assume you have. Totally. Are you very busy? Are you, do you have a PAC schedule? I'm less busy now, um, which is a good thing. I was very, very busy for 30 years. 30? Yeah. I was busy for 30 years. And what made you, did you consciously step back? A little bit. And yeah, just like, because I've written so many books and

stuff. You know, I just, yeah, I just thought, okay, like, I'm still doing stuff. I don't like doing too much is my, is what I've learned. It's like, I can't remember more than two things that I do in a day. And also, you know, it's that old thing that do a few things well and they will be the lighthouse, you know, you can run around to no particularly good effect. Do you feel like that's what you were doing somewhat? Yeah, somewhat. And... Yeah.

And now I'm just concentrated on, well, you know, just make sure the book is really good, the thing is really good, whatever it is. What about the life part? Yeah, that's important, too. I mean, in a really banal example, the sunshine matters huge... You know, London is the most beautiful city on earth between May the 20th and September the 12th. And then you need to get out, urgently. and I exaggerate, most of us can't get out. But if you can get out and just appreciate something

with the light in it, I mean, I'm really interested in light. L.A. is incredible for light. And I'm going to visit my friends. Did I mention that I got some friends in L.A.? No. I'm just going to go and see my friends in L.A. I've known them years. They're all friends, really. Respect, right? They respect you as a content creator?

Yeah, we always, yeah. You're a content, you're a creator, right? You're in the creator economy? You're an influencer? Philosophical influencer. How many clients do you have right now, by the way, as a therapist? Five. I only work one day a week as a therapist on a Tuesday.

Why? Because I don't, because I've got other things going on my life, and I don't want it to, I don't see myself as, you know, a full-time psychotherapist. It's just one bit of what I do, and it's a greatest privilege, but I want to do it one day a week. How long have you been doing it? Three years. And are your clients? Happy?

You have to ask them. Has anyone felt finished? A few. Okay. A few? You know, look, I think on a good day, it's not a magic solution. I'm assisting them in their journeys of self-experation, and on a good day, I'm a handy guide. I'll hold the ropes.

I'll hold the torches, and off they go and do their brave work. On self-acceptance. We don't need to be perfect. We need to be understood. Did you say it? Did I say that? We don't need to be perfect. we need no no we need to be perfect we need to know what our imperfections are

can you see how I'm improving this stuff huge it's much better to say that yeah this thing has just watered me to I mean this is what's going to happen isn't it people are just not even going to read anyone's books they're just going to go by the way the Orwell quote I thought Coco Chanel said I literally heard Coco Chanel said that we're about to enter such a messy yeah Mark Twain has said Einstein has said so many things they didn't say exactly isn't it just important that it gets out there. I know. But then people will go, so what did Tulsa? I'm just going to look at chat GPT. What's that war and peace about? And then they're just like, give me a summary. And the whole thing is lost. On relationships and forgiveness, to be mature is to learn to forgive the other

person for not being you. I don't think I said that, but it's kind of interesting. One of the great gifts you can give you a partner is to talk to them about what's going on inside you. And this is, I mean, we all start off fantasizing that our parents, if you look at small children, they think that their parents know what's going on in their minds. My son, when he was about two or one, he was just starting to speak and he, and it was so graphic, because I know this is a theory, it's a theory

in psychology, he would literally say, get it, and we'd go, get what? He'd go, just get it. And he knew what it was, it was in his head. He thought, well, why and I should I tell them? They obviously know, and they're just being annoying. And he's like, darling, you haven't, you have to say, what is it? And he really lost his temper.

And eventually he went, you know, banana. And I was like, oh, okay, great. But he was in his head. He knew what he meant. And we take that attitude, you know, this is a general human flaw that we, I mean, it's really useful. Whenever you're angry with somebody, you think, oh, they're so stupid. And you go, have you explained to them why you're angry? And most of the time we're like, oh, no, it's a good point. I did forget to tell them. Okay, well, give it a go before you. Well, it's similar to the, I'm high, I'm always going to be high, I'm lonely, I'm always going to be lonely. I feel this way. Everyone in this situation would feel

this way. But also, you know, the whole psychology of sulking. I'm really interested in sulking. The sulk is fascinating. It's like, well, you're going to love our nascent friendship. You are going to, the amount of sulking you're going to see me indulgent is going to be excluded. Talking, talking about self-pity. The sulking is basically, this person should understand me because they're my friend, they're my lover, they're my, you know, ally. And by some, back to paranoia, by some willful nastiness, they are choosing not to see it my way. And, um, And I can't even, I can't bear to speak to them because they're doing it so much on purpose. I'm just going to cross my arms.

And when they say, how, how are you? What's, is something wrong? I'll just go, no. No, nothing's wrong in brackets, other than your rank stupidity and not understanding the complexity of my heart that I haven't bothered to explain. And on and on it goes. It's a big problem. Are you a sulca? I'm a sulca.

So terrible. Only for decades. I know. So awful. I mean, that's another thing. I mean, you know, can we have. schools, medals, et cetera. They really should be Olympiads of it.

The emotional maturity Olympiad. And you'd get, you know, the person who most overcame their tendency to sulk, you know, and a person would step onto a podium, and get a huge medal. And for weeks, they'd be on our screens. And, like, the person will be talking about how they used to be silent for five years. And recently, they've learned to say what's on their mind.

And they, you know, their face would be on coins. Yep. Ideally. That kind of stuff, right? I mean. Or, but, you know, most sulkers would prefer to just sulk and not. They don't, it's the most improved sulker would require a ton of resilience and a ton of just ignoring your thoughts and feelings. Maybe, but they still be on the postage stamp. Look, they deserve every, but I, but I, it's blue plucks on the, on the houses, all that kind of stuff.

But I don't know if it would, I, it would be, the sulking is just an overcorrection into constant wound. Yes, yes. Uh, marination. But it's interesting. you know, we're both people who use a lot of words, right? So you think, okay, these people are interested in communication and yet they also sulk. That's telling you something about, you know, in a way we're over-correcting. It's like, I'm going to use a lot of words, but also I'm kind of longing to be understood without saying anything. I'm longing at points, I'm going to fall silent.

Yes, I could. Yes, I could give you a lecture. Yes, I could get up on stage and tell you exactly what's going on. But I'm at home and I've gone silent. And now, Now you work it out. You work out who I am. I'm tired of explaining myself. You work it out. You guess who I am. I find that in relationships, the women I've dated have been more...

I'm a silker, but they're a... They don't communicate. Right. And I wonder how you've dealt with it. There are all these galling moments where, you know, someone you've been dating says, you know, but I never even liked so-and-so. Or you didn't ask me whether I wanted... and you go

what you didn't say and they go no but you didn't ask I go but you're adult speak and it's it's awful I'm sure I've done it

done the same but it is I mean we want to tell the kids out there right when you're in a relationship speak if there's something you like say it if something you don't like

say it all of that stuff right but so many of us grow up in environments where we're not it's absolutely not obvious that the first thing we should do when we're experiencing something is talk about it right because the parents are depressed.

But a parent will go, you know, you'll be the end of me with your demands. That doesn't set you up to speak very clearly. No. You're going to fall quite silent if somebody says, you know, you'll be the end of me. I also find a good thing that me and Lucy have been doing, which is, what are we afraid to say? Nice. And just like, that's the future. Yeah.

And it cuts so much bullshit out because you just go, what am I afraid to say? What I'm afraid to say is? I also quite like, how have I annoyed you? Just as a routine thing, not in any particular thing, but how have I been a bit annoying this week? Because it's always going to be something. And it's brilliant to get it out there. And almost not have I annoyed you, which is, no, how have I annoyed? Yeah, let's assume I have, and I'm fine with the clarity.

Absolutely. And can you hear it and go, sorry, it's not changeable? You can always say, I hear that it's upsetting, and even though I can't change it immediately and radically, I'm hearing how much it matters to you. That's not good. There's a quote, maybe you said it. On success, success and failure are largely the products of luck. Awareness of this can make us gentler

with ourselves and with others. Something along those lines, maybe. I mean, we've got this concept of meritocracy, right? We live in a meritocracy. In other words, in aristocracy, those who get to the top are just like chosen by their ancestors and weird random. God at some point.

God at some point, et cetera. Meritocracy, you choose. You won the race, you ran the race, you know, you get there, you merit it. It's a nice idea, and it's a good ideal, but it's very fraught with complexities. Because if you really believe that those who get to the top merit to get to the top, you have to believe that those who get to the bottom merit, the bottom position. And that makes the consequences of failure feel much harder. If life's a race and a fair race, then losing has, you know, a lot more negative connotations,

which is why in America that much more believes itself to be a meritocracy than Europe. people who fail get called losers that's what you and that's a hard word is like in a fair race you lost you know we gave you a good school tarmac roads you know fresh water etc you fail well sorry mate yeah it's like that's it yeah um we're i think we have to leave it's been it's been such fun i'll see you in l.a at least you'll at least see me in l.s you'll see me at the retreat i've done a bunch of ayahuasca retreats that have been in shambles in terms of accommodations. One bathroom for 24 people.

And that's not because you're throwing up and all that. We're all sleeping in the same room. You can get by with like nonsense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's the good news. That's good thing. Which I know that's your intention. So Nevada, one bathroom.

Guys, this is Alanda Baton. And this was a sampler of what this guy's doing over in School of Life. You can read the text like Bejohn. you can uh you get the books there's a there's like a there's a paywall pretty significant but not for most of the youtube videos yeah youtube's all free if you want to read the articles a little bit of money but only to keep us going so be kind i'll lend a bit down thank you buddy thank you Open up your hand

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