Blocks w/ Neal Brennan - Dan Harmon

Episode Date: September 19, 2024

Neal Brennan interviews Dan Harmon (Community, Rick and Morty) about the things that make him feel lonely, isolated, and like something's wrong - and how he is persevering despite these blocks. ---------------------------------------------------------- 00:00 Intro 3:10 Before ‘Community’ 4:37 Emotional Health headline 5:12 Thoughtlessness in Relationships 8:30 Emotional Origin Story 14:47 #metoo and apologies  28:35 Sponsor: ExpressVPN 30:40 The Audience 32:05 Compulsion to be Special 42:25 Shame 55:57 Fearing Nobody Needing Him & Being Alone 1:00:29 Nagging Concern That He’s Never Been A Person  1:09:39 Goals for Himself 1:24:37 Face Blindness ---------------------------------------------------------- Follow Neal Brennan: https://www.instagram.com/nealbrennan https://twitter.com/nealbrennan https://www.tiktok.com/@mrnealbrennan Watch Neal Brennan: Crazy Good on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81728557 Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234 Theme music by Electric Guest (unreleased). Edited by Will Hagle ([e-mail])  Sponsor Blocks: https://public.liveread.io/media-kit/blocks Sponsors: https://www.ExpressVPN.com/NEAL for an extra 3 months free! ---------------------------------------------------------- #podcast #comedy #mentalhealth #standup Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, everybody. It's the blocks podcast. My guest today was the creator of the show Community and the co creator of the show Rick and Morty. And he sent me a list of blocks. That's I don't know if you can see it on the it's multiple. It's a few pages. It's it. It's what you would kind of expect from the from the co creator Rickor of Vigamorti? He referred to it as recursive and it's eating its own tail. It's a parody of Blox and it's a departure from, it's everything you want. I don't know how I'm going to do it. Well, is it time for your show to have that peak episode

where Ken Neal talked to a man who is mostly block? And to your earlier point, and looks like it. If you see on video, he was not happy with his single. His closeup is a little concrete-y. Yeah, you know, I want to say not happy because that implies that like I feel entitled to look better than I do. Like I just, it just, I don't see, I have very low lighting in my bathroom and then I brush my teeth and I go to go to work and so it's just a gentle reminder to

get back on what would you do what would you do if like seeing what you see now what now what do you do I stop eating snacks for every meal like I so I'm on a meal plan like it's not like a birthday cake and pizza and I don't indulge but the problem is that, because I have a nutritionist and I've been, I've experienced what I'm supposed to do and gotten the results, which is I just have a meal plan. If I just eat the five meals a day, I'm fine.

I'm high energy, I'm focused, I feel good and all this stuff. And then there's like these little snacks that I'm allowed to have. So it's five plus snacks. Well, no, no, five. Okay. Well, no, there's like, it's like emergency. There's a bowl of like, like, look, if, if shit goes wrong, if you're a little Dixie sideways of a cottage cheese is, um, went bad in the Southern California sun

because it was on your porch too long. Whatever, or if you're going on a trip and you don't wanna bring an organ harvesting cooler. Something tells me, you said Midwestern, you said porch, I feel like it's a patio. Okay, all right. You've entered the tax bracket of patio. Okay.

Your porch stays behind you. Well, it's certainly, there's not a lot of shade where the meal people leave the fanny pack full of the things I'm supposed to eat hours later. It sounds Spartan, but I'm sure you're paying a good deal of money for what you're getting. Yeah, and sometimes it's deviled eggs for breakfast, and then you're like, when did this get here? 5 a.m.?

What time is it now? 11? Are they still deviled or are they now maybe poached? What were you doing before Community? I was right before Community. I was in a chapter I'm sure you've had. We're both the same age. You know, like, I'm sure you've like, in spite of previous successes, you've probably had, like, literal unemployment. Like, I was collecting unemployment checks for that particular... They never collected unemployment.

It had been a while, but yeah. I remember that time as being amazing in my life, because I didn't understand. I thought it was, like, welfare, like, meaning, like, that I was having to say, I'd like the taxpayers to take care of me. And then I remember one of my friends saying, you know, that's your money, and you're losing it. It's like, that's part of what gets taken out I was having to say I'd like the taxpayers to take care of me. And then I remember one of my friends saying,

no, that's your money and you're losing it. It's like that's part of what gets taken out of all of your work that you've ever done. They like are hanging on to it. And I'm like, that's kind of cool of them. Yeah. And finding that out and just getting a check, that just like saved my life for like a couple.

What happens if you don't take it? They just it goes back into the system, which I love that. Great, because like who, because if they just kept it and it just kept growing, that's called a pension. So that we- Well, I guess it doesn't convert to pension at any point. No, no.

I mean, I think that's good. It's like if you're doing good and you're consistently having good luck, then it just, it doesn't roll over. It just goes to someone else's unemployment, which or not to someone else's unemployment, goes to someone's welfare, I don't know. It probably goes to bombs. It probably goes to a nice big bomb.

How would you describe, I mean, based on these blocks, what's the headline on your emotional health? Um, kind of, I don't know. What's your, you're married? You have a girlfriend? I may as well be married. Yeah, you have a serious girlfriend. Yeah.

Yeah. Longest relationship of my life. She proposed to me. We're engaged. It's been like eight, nine years. Great. So, married, we would be married if we were going to have kids, still might have kids. May as well be married. Great.

What's her problem with you? What's her biggest issue with you? I think the thoughtlessness. She's empathic and altruistic and nurturing and capable of unconditional love. And I think, as my therapist said to me that my attachment style is detachment and oh yeah this is that's on the script it's very easy for me not only is it easy for me to go kind of numb it's preferable that it's actually how I

might respond to affection for you like like, like, which I don't like. Do you mean to do it? No, I don't think that that sounds like a bad person. That's one of the, you know, a lot of my flaws, I might go like, yeah, I should, I should fix that. But like, then there's another part of you that's like, it's like, like, oh, David Banner wishes that he didn't turn green, like beat up corrupt lumberjacks. But that's unlike, it's like, I don't hate.

Some of them have an upside. Yeah, I don't hate my shame and my self-loathing and a lot of my narcissism. Like I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't think those things necessarily make me a villain the way that the detachment does. Unfortunately, I bet you suspect, and rightfully so, you suspect that they do make you good at writing.

That's why I don't hate them. Yeah. And this detachment thing, I don't think it makes me good at writing, and I don't think that it certainly, even if it did, even if it made me a thousand times better at writing, it's still... I would cut off an arm if I thought I could... If that would allow me to just respond to my significant other

and the people that do trust and respect me with a reasonable, predictable level of... I don't want, like what? Like I'm just sort of love or something, I don't know. And do you feel it happening? Do you feel it kind of overcome, if let's say your girl is like, is it based on tension or it's based on affection?

Is it based on like we're about to get in an argument, put the screen down? Yeah, because I'm got, well. Or you're about to be loved to put the screen. I'm about to be loved and I might have to love. If I become best friends with you, I've just doubled the odds of sickness hurting my life. Like I've. Their the odds of sickness hurting my life.

Like I've... Their sickness or your sickness? Well, because I've taken on, if I'm your best friend, like... That's a lot of responsibility. Then I have to take a bullet for you. I have to, if you text me at 3 a.m., if I'm in a bad mood and you're in a good mood, if you're in a good mood and I'm in a bad mood,

I have to like, I have to make, you know, I'm, I get scared, the proximity, the, the potential for compromise. Where is that from? I mean, I, it's, it's, I don't, I can't, I can't, the, the detachment thing I can definitely relate to the, and even the loyalty thing I can relate to. I guess I'm wondering what's your, what's your origin story, emotionally. I mean, it ain't Darryl Hammons.

I've been listening to your rogues gallery, i.e. all of my heroes, you know, leading up to this. You don't have abuse synesthesia, you mean? Yeah, I mean, I think we all have trauma. I don't, I don't, I think, I think I really like, I hate like at 51, I hate one of the things I hate about my 30 year old self is that I, I went way too far in parading my ancestral history around. I.e., like, I didn't know how fame and stuff was gonna work. Like, I just sort of thought at, you know, the 25 year old version of me that's like in an improv show

and somebody throws out the suggestion jelly donut and I do a scene about how my dad spanked me and my dad's in the audience, and it's like a real story and everyone's laughing and they're saying, this feels so real, that's why it was funny. And like that dopamine spike caused me for the next, like so I just, so the TLDR of my current total digression is I really think my parents did a fantastic job.

Oh, okay. And I don't want the twilight of our relationship or lack thereof to be spent with me like bagging on it or like referring to it in these terms that then the public can turn around. I literally called my mom three days ago to say, I'm sorry I ever criticized you. Cause I've been watching my girlfriend raise her son,

and I'm like, this is so fucking hard. I cannot believe that I was critical. I'm my dad, I'm still on the fence. But also as a fellow Gen Xer, who has had a TV writing career and therefore has always been around the mechanism of fame and publicity. Isn't part of it just like when you were 25, you felt like it was punk rock and totally righteous

to make fun of your mom for being a lizard woman. And then, like, after being through chapters where you're being called a pedophile because you vote wrong or because, you know, like, or... Or't, I just, I just tried to make myself sound like a victim there. I, I, I, you know, I was, I, I've been like publicly held accountable for misbehaviors of younger, less powerful people. Yeah. Um, and had to atone for it. And it's like, what the hell did my mom do by comparison? She's a 25-year-old chick who married her best friend and didn't plan for me and still

bothered to feed and clothe me. And on top of all that, gave me a typewriter for my birthday because I wouldn't stop fucking around with hers. And, you know, like, told me I could do anything. The amount of things that these people have done for me, it's like, and then, but it was just like, I just look at my younger self, and by younger, I mean my 30-year-old self, as like this ungrateful prick now. Yeah, yeah. I'm getting that. By the way, I was like 30 year old self as like this ungrateful prick now. Do you get, do you get-

Yeah, I'm getting that. By the way, I was like 40 when I did three mics. It's like, and I, that was like taking my, especially my father to task and all this shit and on Netflix. And it was like, I still, I guess I stand by it, but I don't, I don't, not like, I don't know if I would do it today, but it was more like,

that actually wasn't even that, it was revealing whatever. But yeah, I'm with you in terms of like, oh, you have the specific experience of being called to the carpet, so to speak. Yeah, and I think as you get older, which is hardly a feat, it's not nobility. I think it's almost entropy, but at least that's a good thing about entropy. Like a friend of you but I think as you get older, which is hardly a feat, it's not it's not nobility.

I think it's just it's almost entropy. But at least that's a good thing about entropy, like a fruit ripening. You you get older and the fight goes out of you. And all you want is to be a genuinely good person. And you start to realize that that one of the biggest things about that is that you should you should not involve other people in your weird performative shit. But I mean, I have no doubt that,

I think both you and I are saying the same thing, which is the stuff needed to be expressed, but I still feel bad about ever having done it. Because to the extent that it was ever received as punitive or, you know, I don't I. And so all of that was one big preamble. Just so I can give a proper academic answer to your question, where does this come from? Yeah. I childhood drama. I mean, but as my parents were so fond of saying it was the sevent 70s. I mean, and so that's why I said,

not Daryl Hammond style, but definitely chaos. Pure fucking chaos. Collateral damage, but pretty reasonable amounts. Well, yeah, yeah. The kind that, I mean, anyone that was alive in the 70s knows that just like Eminem or iced tea lyrics being read on Larry King like died died died pig died Police if you just described factually some things about your childhood to a 25 year old today It's gone beyond them. They'll not they'll now not believe you.

Yeah. Now, yeah, I don't believe you. It really does sound just so it sounds like from 100 years ago. And they think that you're lying. They think that they're like, that's not true. You don't want to drink and drive. Right. You were like, they absolutely would drink. They mostly drank. There was not a bestselling book about raising children

that literally told parents not to breastfeed and to let them cry until they stopped crying. Sleep training. That wasn't the best seller, maybe it was a fringe self-published thing. No, I'm sorry, it was a best seller. It wasn't Dr. Spock, that wasn't the guy, it was Dr. Spock.

It wasn't Dr. Spock, that wasn't the guy, it was Dr. Spock. Okay, so what's the TLDR on your being called? You got like me-tude-ish, and you seem to handle it in an adult, mature way. Would you agree with that? I don't remember the specifics of it, other going like oh this seems to be the Way to do it. Yeah, I try I I I tried to do it the way that I was watching my my colleagues cousins in the industry of all of whom I have the almost sympathy for because it looked yeah, there was an avalanche that happened and The movements happen they don't happen

with scalpels and lasers, they happen in avalanches. And the time for due process and fairness and discourse, the whole point is that that's over. Those were the things that people were hiding behind and, and the system was protecting like basic abuses of power that, um, that we now know because of this shift. It's very much like, like you're my age. So you remember with smoking, it was like, like I was a smoker till I was 32. And I remember I have these faint memories of being outraged about the idea of smoking laws of like,

Oh, well no, it was all the complaining. That's what always, that's what stuck with me is all the bartenders going, if they outlaw smoking in bars, I'm not gonna be able to make a living. And then none of them said, oh, I was wrong, I make the same living. Right, well, I was one of those people though

that was like, no, this is what's next, book burning? Yeah. You can't, I would say that about my friend's apartments. I, I, I'm, you know, it boggles my mind. I can't even imagine that I ever did smoke much less that I was a fucking zealot for smoking. Yeah. But I never saw that as abnormal behavior back then.

Anyways, that's a metaphor I'm using. That's why I say I have sympathy for my fellow abusers. And so, yeah, the specifics of the story were that when I was working on Community, I did something that back then was, you know, unfortunately familiar to a lot of people, where you're like a nerd and you're a boss and you don't think that you're, and then you think that you having a crush on an employee is not only allowed, but also like super romantic. Yeah, and interesting.

Yeah, interesting and fascinating. And that any rejection of that is simply either part of a mating dance or who knows, I mean, just in any case, totally outrageous. What are you supposed to do, man? All you do is work. Where are you supposed to make people go on? And also, shouldn't you be so flattered,

isn't it romantic that the basis of our relationship is work because don't you think that's so cool? So anyways, it was unreciprocated, um, which seems, uh, yeah. And then I glance over at the, cause I was also picturing myself as David Duchovny or something, but the, the, that, that really is definitely not the point, but it's just, it's also horrendous to me to remember the, but, uh, Yeah. I pictured a lot of turtlenecks and pools of light. But I was butthurt by the rejection of it,

which was rejection on the grounds of professionalism. I mean, the protagonist of the story saying, regardless of any... like, what... That must have been hard to realize you're not the protagonist. Uh, well, that's the, I think that's the headline of the whole story. That's, which is why I don't tell it a bunch,

but since, I mean, they did a, this American life on it, and there was also a struggle there. It was like, I don't want to drag, I don't want her to be famous for this. But, but the balance has been struck. I think she, she, she,. I think she doesn't mind being, I'm not naming her name right now. It's like you can Google it and it's her story to tell.

But my side of it is that I, finishing my crime there is that it was not reciprocated, therefore I was butt hurt, therefore I started, I started this like weird campaign of like cruelty toward her. In my mind, it was like, oh, you wanna be treated like a normal employee now? Try this on for size. you want to be treated like a normal employee now,

try this on for size. Yeah. Which is, I mean, I don't even want to unpack it because it's a story about, it's just like, it's a fucking crime. And there was nobody there to call me out on it, and, or if they were, they were incentivized not to, et cetera. And so time goes by,

and then the world shifts under our feet, and, um, without us voting for it, we specifically, um, didn't. And then this avalanche happens, and then amongst that, um, this, um, writer was like, you know, called me out on Twitter and it was like felt sorry for myself sucked my thumb why is this happening to me and then but because I'd been through therapy it was like I had learned the definition of an

apology which almost sounds like cheating but but you can you can know the definition of an apology and still not be able to do it. Well, yeah, that is a great, I think it's probably especially pronounced in the modern age of like, people think if you diagnose somebody with something, you don't have it.

Like he's a narcissist, which means I couldn't be, because it's a rubber glue situation. But yeah, so if you can, you know how to do an apology and you did an apology that, as I recall, wasn't, I'm sorry you feel that way, and it wasn't the bad apology tropes. Yeah, I mean, it was, I think one of the hardest things about an apology that is why an apology is important to the protagonist is

The removal of yourself as the protagonist. I yeah in a lot of this was like, you know realizing this Because I knew there I knew the rules I knew the recipe Well, it's an it must have been an interesting shift going from simpering simpering victim protagonists to like oh no, I'm just a villainy, I'm like a self-pitying villain. Yeah, this is the rule that I got to play in someone else's life.

Yeah. I was, yeah. It's been a big cultural challenge for, I mean, you could link that to, that's why I have sympathy, quote unquote, sympathy is another word that gets misinterpreted, but it's like, I can see why all of, you know, people are overreacting to concepts like white privilege and stuff. What they're thinking in their head is, I am an underdog, I am fighting everything, I am a hero, nothing ever goes

my way, and now on top of that, you're telling me I did something to you by being born and they get all ballistic, and then they kind of end up inadvertently peacocking the very thing that is happening. And over time, it settles and the culture shifts and stuff. But if you're grandfathered in... So, yeah, the tough thing about a proper apology is the actual shifting where you go like, I am not the protagonist. This is not my story.

I am a character in it. I am a bad character in it. I am, at best, a character in it. I am a bad character in it. I am at best a piece of furniture. I'm a circumstance. I'm a storm. Those are at best. At worst, I'm Darth Vader. I'm somebody that actually tried. But at best, I'm definitely not a hero. This is a story about someone else

that had to deal with something. Well, that's just a good way to do conflict resolution. Of like, we all assume we're the hero, and just like hypothetically, explain this story to me with you as the villain. And that's how you get to like, oh, I guess, yeah, I guess you could see that as shitty behavior. Yeah, and I think, talking to a lot of people

and also having to apologize for things that I don't where I just refuse to apologize. Subsequently, they can be small things. I have regular fights with Cody. We both of us have been to therapy, both of us know the definition of apology. So the awesome thing is that we'll have a fight and we'll need to repair and then we'll break it down

and we'll say things like, look, I acknowledge the offense, which is this. I feel remorse because obviously we both feel remorse that this happened, but I cannot commit to change because I cannot tell you that. And it's like, that's the third ingredient to an effective apology. It's acknowledgement of the offense,

expression of remorse, commitment to change. I think I think the most and I should give credit to. And if I there's a this is from a book that someone wrote and I feel bad this person should be cited. I mean, this is where I don't know the name. The three will. Yeah. I think the book is like called like Anna apology or something like that They they go through the history of the planet kind of going like here are some of the most successful piece of chords

Here's you know, like like where they go you this can be a plan you guys Will not commit to change is it is it with? The caveat that down the road you'll be open to change? Or is it just like, I don't know what to tell you. Those are two, I mean, I'm laughing at it because it's like, well, those are two people who are just still in a fight. I mean, but we're at least expressing two thirds of-

Yeah, but it's less of a fight. Yeah. If you at least like a genuine acknowledgement. Sometimes two thirds will get you there. Like, if I spill a drink on you at a bar, this is an example I always use. The reason why people get kind of flummoxed because they feel like an apology

is some kind of self-flagellation. Like that it's enough to submit. You go, my bad, I'm sorry. And then you have these ticks where we go like, I'm sorry if you sorry if you got hurt. So it's something that people would think would be a really good apology, possibly would be if I spilled a drink on your jacket and then I and I go, oh, my God, I'm so sorry, I'm I'm going to pay for that jacket.

I'm I've got I'm going to get you two jackets, two jackets on me. So this person's going like, I'm Mr. Jacket Buyer. Like, I'm clearly very sorry and am definitely admitting that I am the one in the wrong. It's definitely way better than me saying, hey, why don't you watch where you're going guy who got your thing spilled on you. The person doesn't really want the jacket might work if, but not that you're still you are now reducing that person. The

reason they're mad because they got a drink spilled on them is because you have taken over their entire narrative. They did not plan for a got a drink spilled on them, is because you have taken over their entire narrative. They did not plan for a drink to get spilled on them. They were in the middle of a conversation with a girl they liked, they were on their way to the bathroom, they're filing their taxes. They've got a story, they're trying to write, and now you're blowing through it, and you're deciding that you're more important.

It doesn't matter if you're on your knees sucking them off. You're still stealing all of their narrative. Yep. Whereas if you say, this is what a person wants to hear if they get a drink spilled on them, it doesn't make them, it doesn't save their night, but they want to hear, I just bumped into you because I wasn't looking where I was going

I feel terrible and because this happened I Am going to Not do it again to someone else Right. I'm going to make a commitment to to paying closer attention to where I'm going I think the subtle altruistic thing about that is that the victim, in quotes, no one wants to be a victim. And specifically say, I'm not reimbursing you for the job. It makes them a hero because instead of being a victim, which no one wants to be, it means

that they actually, if they simply endure this bad thing that happened to them, they were a part of of making things better. For that, if they really believe it, if you. Oh, OK. So Dick had spilled a drink on me because he's an obnoxious, narcissistic, clumsy, like distracted. But he's committed to not being that way. And oh, my God, he is like, you should have seen the look on this guy's face. I really think I really think, really think it's sunk in for the guy,

like, he needs to stop doing X, Y, Z. It's like, I'm not gonna use my phone anymore when I'm drinking or I'm not, it's a genuine, it's like, their narrative becomes, I was a part of a shift in a different. A human transformation. It's very important. And then five years later, you do a where are they now?

How did it go? Talk to us, did it actually manifest deeply within you? Well, you follow them with private detectives. Yeah, of course. So at the moment they spill a drink on a jacket, you jump out and go, huh? You have to. Let's hear that apology.

So easy, isn't it? It would be wrong of me to complain about Netflix, but you know what's not fair? The fact that Netflix hides thousands of shows and movies from you based on your location, and then has the nerve to keep increasing their prices on you. Who were they giving this money to?

Points itself. Now, you could just cancel your subscription and protest, or you could be smart about it and make sure you're getting your full money's worth like I do by using ExpressVPN. Here's my point. Netflix has like 18,000 titles, but they only show the United States, 6,000. This may apply to Canada, England, whoever's listening or watching.

So if you get a VPN, you can change your location and pretend you're in England. This also works really well with BBC Plus, an app, because I'm a, you know, I'm a pretty sophisticated. You get it. I like black and white. I like, you know, voiceovers and chamber music. All right. ExpressVPN is easy to use. You fire up the app and click one button to change location. It works on all your devices, phones, laptops, tablets, smart TVs, and more. Super fast, blazing fast speeds, streaming HD with zero buffering. You know what I ended up watching? I ended up watching Midnight Run. I think I had to go pretend I was in Spain or something. It's an old Bob De Niro movie and Charles Grodin, the great Charles Grodin. Speaking of Charles Grodin, I

watched the Heartbreak Kid, the original Heartbreak Kid with ExpressVPN. I believe I said I was in Denmark. So good for me. It's very, very easy. You open ExpressVPN, you pick your country, then you refresh Netflix and they think that's where you are. Pretty great. So be smart. Stop paying full price for streaming services and only getting access to a fraction of their content. Get your money's worth at expressvp slash NEAL. Don't forget to use my link at ExpressVPN.com slash NEAL to get an extra three months of ExpressVPN for free. ExpressVPN slash Neil. Okay, so I'm just gonna start just grabbing these willy-nilly. You've got a few categories.

You've got the audience, you've got relationships, you've got, it's a lot, it's a, you know, it's a lot. I'm sorry. No, no, no, it's great. I could sum it up. You've got emotional, mental block. Let's do the emotional, mental ones. How would you summarize the audience block?

Which isn't the audience. It seems like other people are the audience, right? Yeah, other people, other people. I mean, right there, the fact that you call them the audience is a bit, says something. Right, well, I put it, that's why I broke it into two, that I put other people, and then the subcategories are the audience,

and the non-audience. Oh, got it, okay. Okay, categories of people, the audience. And then the non-audience, parentheses potential murderers. Like, because thaters, like, because that's anyone who's not fascinated with me, maybe trying to kill me. Right. Or they're or they're just trimming my hedges. I mean, but then they could go either way.

Those people kind of run my life. But the wait, what's the specific question? Like, what's the what question? Like what? What's the, what is your, you have, it seems like you have misgivings with, with, with people. Yeah. But it seems like your own behavior with people. You seem to get, it looks like you get spun out. Well it's yeah, because, okay, I think it's because it starts with just like, I don't

know if it's clinical narcissism, but it's just sort of like my, I have very early memories of just, of absolute compulsion to be special. I think a lot of people, a lot of your guests probably, the idea of like companies coming over and that being like this big spike, you know, just running around and loving,

loving how your parents behave differently when strangers are around and how strangers are going like, what's up with your son? He's very interesting. And just this fucking high. And I... I... One of my earliest memories, because it's pre-kindergarten, so I must have been almost fetal,

but it's such a clear memory that it's gotta be important that I was like, I was in a daycare, my mom was in a bowling league, and I was standing, we did this farmer in the dell song, where everyone was just in a circle. This is pre-kindergarten, so you can't even count on these kids to like not eat crayons. Like we're not reading, we're not writing,

we're not supposed, we're not writing, we're not... We're not supposed to be challenged. This isn't school, this is daycare. They just want the kids to hang out and kill time. So the game, it wasn't Duck Duck Goose or anything. It wasn't a measure of merit. But there were a bunch of kids stood in the center of the circle.

And the song goes like, the farmer had a cow, the cow had a dog, I don't know. There's like a group of people in the middle. The only thing I remember is that through absolutely zero merit, this is me editorializing, but, because it sure didn't feel this way, it somehow came down to I was standing alone in the center of the circle.

And the final phrase is that the cheese stands alone, the cheese stands alone. Another editorial comment. By the way, that's not because the cheese is a hero. I didn't, I don't care. I was like, I am, I couldn't wait to learn to write so I could put it in a journal. I was... I remember physically putting my thumbs through the straps on my suspenders. I have this visceral memory of basking in a bunch of other morons' attention. I mean, they're just other kids,

but they were all in a group, and they were all singing about me and looking at me. Which is weird because I... You were the cheese, so to speak? Yeah, I was the cheese. I'm sorry. I didn't make that clear. See? I'm a bad storyteller. No, you did pretty good.

So that sounds like an atomic level of seeking specialness and attention. And as opposed to other people might have that memory and go like, that's the origin of their stage fright or something like that. So we're all, we're all, we all are the same in many ways. And then there's like these little. Well, all right, well, let me talk about that

because how do you manage so you have a preternatural need for attention? Right, specialness. I really need to be special. Okay. And as you said earlier you have certain attributes of your personality you are are

Legitimately ashamed of and you you and and you're morally correct to be ashamed of them. This one Has been pretty pretty good Do you know what I mean? So how do you? been pretty, pretty good. Do you know what I mean? So how do you navigate which parts of the like, well, that's that need to attention has a need for attention has begotten bunch of TV shows and a bunch of material and a bunch of, and a life for you. Or did it stand in the way of, I mean, specialness? Like, not, um... Right, but Dan, you're special. Well...

No, you are. I mean, again, I don't... It doesn't... I get nothing from saying that. I don't, like... You're just, you have a very unique... You have a very unique heat signature, and you, uh... You can generate more written comedy material than almost anyone. and you can generate more written comedy material than almost anyone.

So that falls into special. So when did you stop judging it and do you go back and forth on like, it stinks? No, it doesn't stink, it's incredible. The need for specialness I've never looked at as a quality, as a good thing, as a strength. Because I feel it feels the weakness I I I am very comforted by

Drinking alcohol and eating peanut butter protein bars. Mm-hmm. I don't look at I don't I don't I try not to shame myself To a special level for these things. Yeah, see me drink, baby. I'm a genius. Um, it's, uh, I use this giant straw called glass. What? Um, the, uh, it, it, it, yeah, I've never honestly, look, I, the, the, maybe to contrast that, uh, like, I'm... Well, I guess I would... Like, my self-interest, I, that I that I think is a writer's job.

The narcissism, there's a difference in narcissism and kind of like I don't know the need for specialness. I'm breaking those into two things. That's fine. Yeah. Like like fascination with the self. I think that that that's a cousin of I mean, that's just self inspection. That that's great. I mean, Cormac McCarthy has to have that in order to write a good

Western. The Coen brothers have to have that. Like, Dan, is your iCloud trying to create a vast list, but you're really just going down the IMDB entry for no country for old men? My brain rots from the outside. The lists get shorter. But great writers. Josh Brolin. Are. Also another. A well-trained Doberman. Yes.

So that's because, I'm just clarifying that because I think there's just, the need for specialness to me, it rings very. I think if you're hurting people or boring the fuck out of people, then I think it's, uh... I don't wanna say criminal, but then I would say it goes into the negative. Yeah, or when you're...

Or wasting people's time. Like, when you're compulsively argumentative, like, when you... Like, I see that in friends of mine who share a need for specialness, and it manifests itself as like they become contrarian right, it's like yeah can't even just yes and you in a conversation like like I that's why I see it as a bad quality because I'm like it can manifest itself as a It's just you're you're not even now. You're a value

Subtract from your yeah from cool people's lives. Yeah. So anyway. You didn't say they were cool. I didn't know they were cool. No, but yeah, that's what I mean. Like what is the, so you will accept the part of you that the Cormac McCarthy part of the self-interested part.

I'll happily die all the way up my own ass. Like, because I think I would... I would... Deep down, I go, sure, it would be great to suddenly become fascinated with other people, but at the same time, also, all roads lead to Rome. Um, like, there are some people whose fascination with others, um, makes them produce things

that make people happy. Ira Glass, I don't know. Yeah. You are a great interviewer, I don't know. Yeah. You are a great interviewer. I am a terrible interviewer. I'm, I, I, I, it's, I can't get out of my own ass. You are a listener and you're taking interest in other people. So the, getting out of your own ass leads to good things,

but also be staying all the way up there to the point where it's insane. That's fine too. You could still die having done a great job for humanity. Yeah, or at least giving them diversion. Because there's self-hatred up there. If you don't spend all your time up there kind of going like, it's beautiful up here and it smells like roses and anyone that says otherwise is a crazy person. But if you just stay up there and go, I love every bump and crevice and nook and cranny, that's great.

That's as admirable as somebody who spends their entire life studying bed bugs or cockroaches or these people are important. Like, you know, people who just both are- I would argue as long as you're creating something in that regard, like as you're creating something in that regard, like if you're gonna be self obsessed, it's, you know. Yes, if you're sharing it with others, yes.

Yeah, if you're generating material and selling it for a reasonable price. Yeah. Like I would argue then like, you're a net positive. I don't care how you gather, I don't know you. Like so if you're up your ass, great, where are the episodes? Right. I don't like,. Like, so if you're up your ass, great. Where are the episodes? Right. I don't like, whatever your process is,

just give me the shit. Give me the, where's the stuff? Yeah. And so the specialness thing is why I go like, I don't, I could do without that because it's like, there's nothing special about needing to be up your ass. Like, you don't have to add to that, that's why I'm important, that's why I'm great. It's like a proper adult, I think, goes, this is what I do, it's based on compulsions,

it's based on fascination, it's based on neural networking, whatever, it's my lot in life. Some guys are out there kicking indoors and saving cats from fire. I, like, thank God, they don't demand every day of my life that I think about them. Like, like, or in every conversation with them. Thank God they're allowed to come and have a drink and talk

about Minecraft with me. And then let me be fascinated by their firefighting without them constantly going, this drink reminds me of fighting fires instead of Minecraft or, yeah, interesting story about running community. It sounds like an ember. Oh, oh, did we get back on that? And kind of like the specialness, this need to bend everything to the self. That's the, I think that's a vice.

You bring up neural networks. How have you changed yourself? Or have you just become aware of your neural networks? I'm just a waiter. Yeah. And like, all right, I know what I'm probably gonna do. Let's see if we can not do it. I'm not quite that far.

I think my therapist has helped me realize that shame, I can't believe I didn't put this on the block list. Shame is the number one block. Go. What are you, say more. Well, I'm just driven by shame. My body, my mind, my soul is, and that does not, shame does not go hand in hand

with like humility. Humility is a virtue, but shame is just, I hate myself, which is just a sister cousin of Solace is a vanity. I mean, it's like yeah like Yeah, if you hate I think you would also agree that that there's valued as shame As a there's non-toxic shame my therapist says

Little kid the reason we have the mechanism is that a little kid at the top of a flight of stairs with their giant head that they can't balance, when they can receive from a gesture and a look and a tone of voice from their mommy down at the bottom of the stairs, no. And that the non-toxic shame, it imprints on them. Like, oh, the top of these stairs, they are a mommy-disappointer. Uh-huh.

Like, it's a good, it's a bookmark mechanism for sentient primates that can get themselves in a lot of trouble if they only go by what feels good and what doesn't kill them, because we spend the first 14 years of our development as a gangly leopard bait. Like, so shame, good shame is like, mom and dad, like they get, they got really freaked out when I started swallowing this hot poker.

That's a bad example, that has its own, you don't need to be ashamed of that, it burns. But they got real, you detect and you judge, so the toxic shame is, it's not gonna make any difference. You know, they say the definition of a phobia is It's fine to be scared of spiders They're creepy and gross if you can't go in your kitchen and you're late to work because there's a spider in there now We're in phobia territory because the spider

Probably isn't a brown recluse and You're now late for work. So now you have an so now you have arachnophobia. Toxic shame is you're fucking yourself up and you're not avoiding falling down any stairs anymore. You're just, you're anything you're like... Yeah, but to the parental thing, it's like there's also norms and sort of cultural... I think shame's, it's how we learn the rules.

It's the rules. It's, it's how we learn the rules, that it's the rules, it's kind of like the norms and the expectations of a shared society. Yeah. I don't, I'm, that's why I'm kind of like pro-shame in some ways. Pro, yeah, and I say, wait, we're just splitting these hairs too, because there's no, like, there's no Hogwarts for this

and there's no like, like plumbing union, like it's, it's a semantic game and there's no like like plumbing union like it's it it's a semantic game And there's no like that even like when does it become toxic? I guess if you're Especially when it's self-inflicted and it's only causing you to do more things that are affecting other people I think that a nice litmus test is if if the shame is the reason you didn't do something unhealthy and also if it didn't cause you to hurt yourself. And that includes emotionally. So there's the difference right there.

That's why the word shame has us kind of going, -"Well, wait a minute." Because shame sounds just generally terrible, punitive, and bad. But your mom's not saying you're a terrible human being for being at the top of the stairs. She's saying the opposite. She's saying, I love you.

Do not fucking, you have a giant head and you are not an acrobat and you are designed to break into pieces, like step back and you just feel this flood. I get a modern example that is like I was, I remember being in an edit bay and community, and I had a terrible, terrible habit. This is very, very, this is like, you know, 2009, I had carried with me a terrible Midwestern habit of using certain words that that that refer to somebody's mental deficiencies.

No, arguably worse because it was like the I would say things were gay, meaning like you're lame or bad or dumb again from the 70s yeah and and not defending it it's just like this was a thing like pretty much say this is a thing that was common is like I had carried this verbal disease into the edit bay in 2009 so and I the editor I I'm gonna not name them because I don't know if he might want credit or not want credit. I don't know. But I had an editor who was editing and then he never like wheeled around in his chair and like took me to task. I'm not saying that's great that he didn't do that. I'm just pointing out that he fucking sat there and he would have sat there forever as far as I know. I then said at one point like in a kind of weird, I was like, but you know

what? I keep using that word. I'm sorry. And I didn't, I don't think I knew that he was gay or maybe I did. It doesn't matter that much to the story. What matters is that he turned around in his chair and he locked eyes with me and he said, well, you know, I know fully well that it means, the word means nothing to you, but I appreciate you giving it a second thought because I want you to know that when I hear that word, it causes these experiences for me and these memories that I have from from being on the playground. Sorry, I'm making me um, because I'm not the protagonist of that story. And there's like, so I have this, like, and it makes

you it makes you cry when you're not the protagonist. It's you hate it so much. It's like water on my wish. I'm like that's how easy it is to beat me Swiveling a simple spot light for the twice a year realization that you're not Twice a year fuck you buddy. This is a story from a 20 years ago No, I'll never beat my match again. No one will ever be that g*** editor. But he communicated with me. I obviously felt like a little bit of like some weird band-aid corner of shame that I expressed that.

He then did this noble thing where he waited for that, then didn't just blow it off. Yeah. Satisfied. The whole thing gave me what I would call shame, but not the kind of shame that makes me a piece of shit 90% of the time. It was good shame.

There's good cholesterol, there's good things. It's like, I am properly ashamed about everything around that experience. But I feel growth about it, I feel good about it. Yeah. ashamed about everything around that experience. But I feel growth about it. I feel good about it. Yeah. OK, so what are some things that come to mind about when

you think of negative shame? Well, just, I mean, it goes to that magical thinking thing. Because it's the unconscious. It's like you don't even register as shame. You get into relationships with people at different phases of their life. Your career is linked to paying your mortgage. That's linked to taking care of someone

that you love the most in the world. It's out of your control. In addition to all of the cultural fluctuations where people might on any given day just announce to you your career is literally in permanent jeopardy because of a comedy sketch that you made in 2003. Or it's literally in jeopardy because of something

that someone that you're working with is doing, has done a million years ago, or that you don't control. And like me coming home and flipping my dining room table over, that's shame that's not helping anybody. It didn't help my dining room table. It didn't help my, it didn't change my, you know. Yeah. It didn't, it didn't. You're ashamed of your response.

I'm, well, I'm, I think I'm healthily ashamed of what I'm describing to you. You're right. But what I'm saying is like. I'm saying the toxic shame is what made me, if you're flipping a dining, it's a, Jeff Foxworthy's, to paraphrase Jeff Foxworthy, if you're flipping your dining room table over

and screaming at the only person in your home who is the only person who hasn't hurt you and that you're trying to protect, you might be a toxic shame neck. Like Cody, if I'm swallowing stuff down about my career, Like Cody, if I'm swallowing stuff down about my career, and then I'm traumatizing my dogs, and I'm going on rants at the foot of my bed, where my only audience is a person

that has nothing to do with any of it. I find that is, now I'm, it's toxic shame because it's proliferating. I'm taking carbon dioxide and turning it into carbon monoxide instead of oxygen. But that doesn't sound like shame to me though. That sounds like a response to hardship or difficulty. Well, it's self pity and flip to shame.

I mean, it's all, it's like. But like, flipping the table, I would be ashamed of that. But all the other stuff of like career difficulty or peril. Okay, I can do a better example. You just shamed me. No, that's not my better example. Thank you for healthily shaming my terrible example of toxic shame.

Here's an easy, easy, easy one. And then you can cut to a commercial about mental health. He's getting ready to shame me. He's getting ready to shame me. Go ahead. And then you can cut to a commercial about But um this doesn't it this never happens with Cody but every relationship leading up to Cody is Cody your your wife Cody Heller, that's why I was like, yeah, cuz I we've mutual friends asterisk Fascinating Hollywood trivia of the fascinating Hollywood trivia, show runner of season one of Jury Duty. Correct.

And then you can play a clip of somebody going like, oh, I'm jury! Great. Okay. I'm jury! Every partner leading up to Cody, if I was laying in bed and they said, it's a beautiful day outside, I would say, so?

Because what I would hear them saying is, maybe we should go out and you don't go out enough, and all you want to do is sit in bed, and you're letting me down, and I could have a better boyfriend who is more athletic, and he's out there, and I bet if I go out there by myself, you'll probably just sit here like Mr. Burns

and wait for me to come back and then turn on a lamp that you had specially shipped in, just so you could dramatically turn it on in the corner and say, did you have fun outside? That is all happening in my head. And now I'm, the person's getting a response from me that's as if they said all that. That's toxic shame. And it's magical thinking.

That's, yeah, the projection or the assumption, or it's just make, it's being presumptuous and negatively about other people's. Yeah, it's writing a script for them that they don't even have, that they didn't read, and then responding to them as if now it's your job to like defend yourself, and they're like, who the fuck are you?

Who, like, who are you even talking to? Like, like how are you? How do you deal with it? Because I tried to write about this yesterday. I found a girlfriend that will not get out of bed. That's what I said. Like I'm not getting better. I just... You just have figured out to game. You've gamed your life. I'm just filling my furnace with shame. I'm learning to convert all of my other flaws into shame, which is good, because they're flaws. But I don't know how to... So there's a... So you've just made it so there's no tension because you guys are so similar. I... Yeah. If Cody says, it's a beautiful day outside, I'm like, I can finally go, oh yeah? What do you have in mind about that? And she's like, very quickly like, I can finally go, oh yeah, what'd you have in mind about that?

And she's like, and she's like very quickly like, no, I didn't, like she'll clarify like, she gets nervous. Don't get me wrong. She's about to, she accidentally got herself on a track to flying a kite. She's like, no, no, no, no, don't get me wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not like that.

I was about to say, it's a beautiful day to listen to another true crime podcast- The next step is being- True Crime podcast. Being sarcastic about it. Like, it's a beautiful day outside. Yeah. You're fucking stupid ass day. Fear of nobody needing me and being alone.

What is that? Well, coupled together, that's a paradox. Or just a... You don't want to be needed, and you don't want to be abandoned. Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna do good on my own. I love... I need to be special. I need somebody looking at me, or I don't exist.

But you don't want them to have needs. You don't want them to reciprocate. Yeah. Well, I don't want that I'm worried that they'll have needs. I'm also I'm ashamed if I have needs Interesting so it's the worst of both worlds. Yeah, it's like what is that? So what do you want? You want to want? Maybe you should date Mount Rushmore or No erosion, I mean it's sooner or later the rain's gonna start wearing down FDR's nose. Is he on Mount Rushmore?

I think so. He should be. He should be. Three terms. Three terms and they don't get on the mountain? Come on. How many fireside chats does a brother have to do in this motherfucking?

Okay, so yeah, so that's just a, is that something you've been aware? Were you always aware of this stuff? Or was it not really really your life my life. I It's the shame stuff I'm trying. Yeah, I'm just I'm trying to work on it. It's like I really you know Yeah, it's like the shame thing is the biggest It's my Godzilla. It's the thing that if I

have to deal with it, it's... I liken it to, like, asthma or something. Like, like, it's... Like, I think it would be unreasonable to think I could flip it, you know, with some epiphany or something. It just needs to be somehow reduced. And my therapist says that the... The cure for shame is self-esteem, and self-esteem can't be conjured.

It's derived from a steamable act. And to which I say, so you want me to go work in a soup kitchen or hang lighting? What is the, and she's like, I don't know. Let's examine why that's your image of a person with being a steamable. But it's not, and what I've found is that my version of an esteemable act is, like I like making furniture,

I like workshop stuff. So you can flip it, right? You make tables so you can flip them later on? Yeah, yeah. I make special tables with secret handle grips, and it looks specially placed so that other people, when they try to flip my dining room table, it'll be like when they tried to siphon gas

out of Mad Max's car. It's just like, I'll put dynamite under there. Like, the table will flip them. But then I just like reach over and go, what's the big deal? It's just a table. It's right here. And you see, you're in Armory, You're like where the where the flipping bars? Yeah, well

Why aren't you mad bro? Maybe your job's not hard. Yes. I don't see this Flipping I also like that. You're so anti hobbies that you're like that Hang gliding is an esteemable act I know. You're like hang gliding, of course. Cause that's, I know where that's, it's just that was a Mount John Denver and like that's natural living. Yeah. Is putting on a helmet and jumping off a cliff.

I always picture a dude hang gliding. That's better for the environment. So literally what the late, late seventies,s early 80s would that was the messaging? I mean, what do you do is theme of a black? Well, no, I was thinking about that that the the esteem of a lax I got self esteem Not from a seem of wax. I just got I got them from drugs

Honestly MDMA and ayahuasca. You know ayahuasca, yeah, to be clear. Yeah, so I didn't do anything in particular. Because I have the, that you may have also, which is if I'm doing, because I don't like doing things I don't like doing, I will just be resentful and sulky the whole time. If I'm like, oh, is this esteemable enough? Yeah, exactly, Yeah. That's a good way to get killed in hang gliding they say. Oh, the best. If you try to pout, they say that, yeah. It's the number one thing. It's like, it's like, you don't have the right form. You literally, chapter one of the hang glider's handbook is called lean in. Yeah, you cannot do definition of the pout with a line through it.

The, you had another one on here that I'm interested in, which is, hold on one second, not peanut butter protein bars. Oh, okay. Nagging concern that I've never been a person. Yeah. Explain to people what you mean by that. A person who's earliest memory is being the cheese

and standing alone, which is a reaction to other people. And then even if my reaction to other people is, I wanna be alone, like not liking people, I'm very introverted, but it's always about other people. And then like, I don very introverted, but it's always about other people. And then, like... It... I don't know. Do I have a value system? I don't know. I think that during the Obama administration,

which our generation, for no political reason, just like that era, I think we were... We... It was easier to, to feel virtuous when virtue coincidentally lined up with really just whatever you wanted to do. Yeah. It's like you you have to put energy into homophobia and racism. It's a lazy person is just like, why would I care if someone's a different color

or who they have sex with? Hero, time to go get your statue. And it's like, oh, there's a homeless person. I think I'll give them a dollar that I have because I don't have work today, because I'm a writer. Like it now, because of the kind of, you know. It's like performative morality of convenience. It's just untested.

Yeah, and of convenience. I think the thing that makes me the most nervous about the only thing, my only stake in politics is just from a global history perspective and going like, please don't put me in a chapter of history where I will find out exactly what I'm made of because I think it's nothing. I don't have any evidence that I have actual integrity,

bravery, that I have, I'm going too high with this. It's more pervasive than that. I don't know if I like bananas. Like, I don't know if I just don't not hate them. I don't know, like I'm not sure, like I feel like there's a computer in my head whose first job was to simulate and blend. And then I was smart enough maybe to realize

that that's not how you make a lot of money. Yeah, what's funny about your position, I mean, I guess you probably just work a lot, right? Yeah. And so you can avoid a lot that way. Yeah. But I'm sure you've had the moments, even if it's just a weekend of like,

what am I actually like? Yeah, I mean. Other than these habits that I've like formed, what do I like, what kind of people do I like? Do I like bananas? Yeah. Do I like concerts? I mean, yeah. I mean, did I ever really?

Or did I just go? Yeah, it's like, like I don't, and it's, yeah, that nagging suspicion that I am just a cloud of reactions. And I mean, I look, I hear other people talking and I do believe them when they say, I don't like this, I do like that. And I'm like, secretly, there's this part of me that's like, am I...

Am I just masking, you know? Like, am I... Am I... Like, because I don't know how strongly I feel about that. Like, my convictions all can be linked to... Um, not just self-interest. I do think it's self-interest, but also with a note that like self-interest for me can easily include. I want to feel like a good person. I want to feel like I'm a Democrat politically because I do agree with the philosophy that a proper

civilization is, that a civilization should be measured by how well its least fortunate are doing, are taking care of, are protected. That's an academic distinction that if Karl Rove was sitting here, he would say, yes, I agree that that's the definition and that the other side feels academically like, that shouldn't be it, it should be how well

the most fortunate are doing, and then it'll kind of trickle down or whatever. That is not me getting all, you know, call to action, here's what you said, that's objective definitions as far as I understand it. I'm over here going like, because I do, because, but I think part of it is because I don't, I see the other version is like bound for failure. It's either bound for failure, it's bound for instability.

It's bound for chaos. If you try to do trickle down unregulated, unhinged capitalism, if you start slipping and slapping over into white nationalism, you may taste like a Snickers bar to you because those peanuts are really satisfying you because you didn't have the breakfast

of $10 million in your bank account. But I'm sitting over here going, I'm fine with the way stuff has been working, deeply flawed system, rule of law, democracy. You're also aware though, it's easy to pay a high tax rate when you make a lot of money. You know what I mean?

Yeah. You also, like... Yes, exactly. I like that. I'm watching, talking to you today is, you're so intelligent that I feel like you've annotated your life to death. You've analyzed...

Thanks, Neil, that must have been hard for you to say. You've annotated your life to like, we've kinda, and I'm in the same boat a lot of times. It's like, I've analyzed it to a microscopic level and kind of ruined it in a way. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Like kind of ruin it with, I mean, analysis paralysis from analysis, all that stuff. But it's almost like dissect the dissecting comedy is like

dissecting frogs. It's like a, like a, a beautiful sculpture out of virgin marble. That's, you know, but it's, there's no velvet rope around it. So it's just covered in kids fucking fingerprints. Like your own kid, you know, there's paper cups because you just hang out and fondle the thing that could otherwise be smooth and mysterious. Say, hey, who sculpted that? Did his mom hit him or not? How do you feel on the scale of positive emotions,

How do you feel on the scale of positive emotions, where are you with joy and happiness? Because those to me are the first ones that go from the heavy analysis. Cody and I are, I think, are both at a chapter of our lives where we're coping with privilege. Like, she's younger than me, so... Well, it is Hollywood. Go ahead. Yeah, exactly. I mean, look,

I had to spend the extra 12 years making up for my ugliness. Yeah, no, yeah. You had to catch up. How the system works. The achievement, yeah, yeah, yeah. You had to close the achievement. Close the looks gap. Good-looking guys got to spend that 12 years

learning how to treat a lady on a first date. Like, I was like, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. I need an Emmy. My wiener's small. I need to lead with an IMDB entry of some kind. Yes. So, the... Where were we? The... Oh, it's the it's like Joy this job idea of like having content like you when you're in charge of your own joy

Like whether you are having it or not. That is like a big it's like It's not so much a block as it is like a blank page where you sort of like So now Cody and are talking about like should we are we cruise people? Should we go on a cruise? Because when we go to Paris, we sit in the hotel room and wait for the Eiffel Tower to be replaced with something more interesting to look at while we listen to podcasts. Are you sure you're not an Epcot? It could be. I mean, there's the other people thing. I know there's other people in cruises, but I think you can find a cruise where it's like...

Well, yeah, you have to work against yourselves where you're like, we are claustrophobic a little bit. So let's go make ourselves claustrophobic so we have to engage with... You probably have too nice a house. Yes, it's comfort. Comfort... Comfort doesn't... It doesn't work against joy,

but it's almost like, what would a good metaphor be? It's like, comfort is like, it's so soft that you can't, I was gonna say you can't bounce, but it's like, you can, kids bounce up and down in beds, they use them as trampolines. I can't find the metaphor. There's, it's like, you need joy. Joy is kinetic. And comfort kinda.

A lot of joy is also getting, serotonin's only, I believe serotonin's only released when, dopamine is only released when your expectations are exceeded. What are your goals for yourself? Yeah, I don't, I, I feel like I keep disappointing you, but that's because I'm shamed. You I'm disappointed me at all. Okay, good

Like it's actually been I think you're Representing yourself. I think this is what you're like. Okay. Well that was Absolutely true and backhanded That was I think that's the brand and That was I think that's the brand, isn't it? Yeah, no, this is yes, this is who I am and it's and it's a What I mean is I don't have a good and I don't I don't I'm not gonna go hang gliding and I I mean the I've become a bit of a doomsday prepper. And I think that's for absence of having this joy.

I didn't go into trying to get other people to like me and gain security with a preconceived thought about what I would do if I ever got the, you know... The $6,000 toilet. Yeah. Like, I don't... It's kind of... I do remember the jerk with Steve Martin and Madeline Conner. Like, they're...

It's like the... you know, it's it You remember that scene? It's like after they're rich and he's like he's shooting crossbows and or she's taking crossbow lessons or knife throwing lessons and he's like got a Dispenser with martini glasses It is a little bit of they're lost it's not a a, it's a dark part of their story. Well, I'm not even talking about the money part. What's your goal for your, if you're shame based, are you trying to get less,

are you trying to be less of any of this? I wanna try, well, I'm looking for the esteemable act, which I ain't going to no soup kitchen. Cause I don't, I don't, I look, maybe I, maybe I, maybe this lifetime I fight that until I'm 70 and then I finally go in no soup kitchen. Yeah. Because I don't, I don't, I, I look, maybe I, maybe I, maybe this lifetime I fight that until I'm 70 and then I finally go in a soup kitchen and my brain lights up like a Christmas tree and I go, and I die going like, I should have given more soup. But my therapist was quick to point out, esteemable doesn't mean charitable necessarily.

Oh, thank God. It just means like a thing that, yeah, thank you Christ. That knocks hang gliding off of there. When I started woodworking, I started experiencing sort of new like feelings that I'm going, I think this might be a steam, because I can make a shelf or a table, and not only does it not have to be important, it doesn't even have to be well-made, because it just love making it. And it's for me. And it's, and I think that one of the most important things

about it is when I was trying to explain to people, like, what do you get out of it? And when a fellow writer asked me that, I feel it clarifies for them, for me to say, if you make a shelf, like the entire world, if you wanted to do this experiment, you could invite the entire world to weigh in on whether it was a good shelf and it wouldn't change your knowledge of whether you liked it or not. It's like, and by the way, you're not gonna bother inviting the world

because you don't need to, because if you put a can on it and it doesn't fall onto the floor, then you made a shelf. For me, it's an escape from the way I look at the thing that we used to love to do, which is make the shelves of television. Well, yeah, and that... What is the difference

between an episode of a TV show and a... It has to... It's for everyone else. My job is... My employer is the audience. And that's coming from you, who... It seems like there is a... The appeal of it is there's like a high degree of self-satisfaction within it. It's like, I've never watched an episode

of something you've written and been like, this guy's all about the crowd. I get, yeah. This guy's pandering. But I could say the same thing about your stuff. I think that, I think that that's, don't you think from having talked to all of us that that is the little tricky do, that the people we call hacks are people that just don't know that one simple trick, which is that a good pirouette is like it puts your body at risk, you know, and a bad pirouette which isn't worth doing is like you holding out the rulebook and going like, Oh, how to do a perfect pirouette and everyone's like, boo, I could do that.

like, oh, how to do a perfect pirouette? And everyone's like, boo, I could do that. And then they want to watch somebody who appears to be given to reckless abandon. You keep, it's like a paradox. You, rule number one, you, I think you're a, I think you're all, you're my version of a Sith that's an evil Jedi for you kids.

Right. If you are convinced that you're not trying to please an audience and you're doing anything close to what we're doing, because that just seems like a fundamental delusion. Dishonest. But then rule number two, which then now starts the spiraling, is the only way you're ever going to please them

is like they need to, you're not going to please them by by like chasing them around asking them where to put your TV show they're gonna be like I hired you to know these quickly what does the shelf where's the shelf fall into this and I mean quickly like don't get on a train of thought just quickly what's the shelf how's the shelf different is it all there is no audience for a shelf? There's no such thing as a hack shelf. To me, there's to a good woodworker there is. Right. There's no such thing as a disingenuous shelf.

There's no such thing as a, you can't critically take down my shelf. You can't do it. Like if I decide I made a good shelf, I don't even have to have a definition of good shelf. It's just a shelf. You cannot make it a worthless shelf by writing an essay about how Harmon's up to his old shelf

tricks again, or this appears to be a shelf at first, but it's really a table on a wall. And think about that for a second. Like, you can change my work by doing that in my head and everywhere. It's an ephemeral subjective because I can't, it's easy for people to go like, yeah, but who cares what other people say? What are you nuts? We care. It's a work. They're the boss. They're God. If they're not happy, we're doing a bad job. So of course we care what they say. The problem is they're so dumb.

we care what they say. The problem is they're so dumb. They're such terrible, terrible, dumb, dumb people. And then you so you have to have love, unconditional love for the audience and go like, I am, I am here to just generate general joy and happiness. And the only way I can do that, I have to, I have to rip my sternum open, I have to, I have to, I have to rip my sternum open. I have to do something they cannot get at a different lemonade stand, mixing a couple metaphors. I have to not mix metaphors. I have to go up my ass and give them something worth, something that resonates with them, makes them happy. And yes, that's a wonderful, beautiful,

very proud of the work done there. But at the end of the day, esteem? I don't know. Because like, if I've done that the best, then what have I done other than obliterate myself? The shelf? Holy shit. I just gave myself extra space to put stuff on. Like an Emmy that symbolizes me having been a not real person for long enough. Wow. You think in 900 word bursts. I'm so sorry. No, no, no.

Here's what I wanted to know. You specifically asked me to be concise, but it's like- No, no, no. listen to me. Ah. You think a 900 word verse. Do you know at the beginning of the. No. So when you start, it's just, you think it's three sentences.

Yes, yes. And it just becomes that. Yes, you're the first person that I think has ever asked me that, which is not to say that no one's ever had this, this, this is such a great question. No, no, but I'm curious, because I know, I know I pretty much,

my teleprompter is like three lines. You know where you're going to end. You're like a West wing writer. Like you're like a, you're a craftsman. Yeah, like three, but, but I would argue, I mean, it's a grass greener thing. Cause like, there's a, it is fun and interesting to watch you go on a tangent.

And I didn't, and the reason I wanted you to quickly, because I didn't want you to do that about the shelf because it wasn't important enough to me. But like, but there are people like you and there is a, I don't mind grandiosity as long as it's entertaining. And you are grandiose and entertaining. And I, so I'm giving you a dispensation. It's fun to watch your brain go.

I've tried to explain it to people in the past, not excuse it, but explain it that... It's also the explanation for why I say bad things, is because my brain is doing nothing until the propeller in my throat starts blowing air through my vocal cords. And then that starts powering as a side thing. Like the mouth is talking, like a cockroach's legs are running. And then the brain is...

Neat goes, we need to fill this? Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's a talking, I'm a talking machine. But you also are getting it. With a talking machine, a wifi, like computer, onboard computer that keeps it from.

Let me see if I can understand this. So, clearly you're getting at something when, okay, the propeller starts going, the throat propeller, you start, so you're, but then you have something you wanna communicate. Do you know, do you have a, but I see this as a metaphor for an episode of a TV show. So are your episodes ever done or are they just the do?

Yeah, yeah, they're do. They're never finished, they're just like, this is as close as we could get. Gotta get, gotta get. This isn't, I don't even really like, I don't even know like I don't even know How I feel about this anymore Yeah, until the audience until it's finished finished like a good collaboration once the it doesn't need to be once it airs like

You see a final sound mixed. Yeah of something. You've got an audience of collaborators 200 people if you're from the network Camelot, like people have like gradually, like before it goes off the assembly line, there are more, I go, this is a great episode of television. And sometimes I'll even say, like very specifically, cause it's me sorting through it in my head, like I'll even say out loud,

I like this episode so much that I actually don't care if everyone reveals to me that it sucks, like, which is I think a lie, it's a lie. But it is an expression of, I'm able to like it that much in that moment. Yeah, almost, yes, almost. You want your baby to be beautiful, but like, this is a, I don't, yes. Mostly, no, I'm like, this sucks, but it, you know, I'm-

You can believably convince yourself you don't care. Yes, because experience and luck have taught me that if I can allow people to force me into a schedule and I can keep from getting fired, that the end result will be complete products that everybody can be proud of and make people happy. Do you have a secret belief that it needs to be torturous to be good?

No, I don't believe in that. I believed that when I was 25. I don't believe that the darkness, that the self-hatred is important to the craft at all. I think that's a dodge. Yeah. All right. Well, I was gonna also get, but there's something within your, I'll give you some credit for your verbosity, which is you feel, you would almost feel dishonest to stop talking. To not finish a thought. It would feel dishonest to not finish this thought. Like I should, like I feel,

I feel like I should also say this, like caveats on caveats on caveats, cause you did think it, and you don't wanna be dishonest and not sort of verbalize it. Wait, I'm sorry, I'm getting tangled in the negatives there. No, no, the positive is that you are, you're grandiose, but what I would say the reason you're grandiose is because maybe it's ego,

but I also think that there is a part of you that feels like you should say it because you thought it and it would be dishonest to not say it. Yes, yes, yes. And like, I would like to just complete this thought, because the thought wants completion. Yes, yes. Absolutely. And also, I don't want it's like people who talk in soundbites,

like that's, it's they're manipulating people. That's not me being sour grapes. I just mean, that's what my brain is doing. It's like, if I said something and finished it, that will, then I should be president, shouldn't I? Because I've become a master of understanding what people need to hear. And also I'm so confident in what I think that I'm just gonna, oh, sounds like I said the right amount of things and now give me my cracker.

Yeah, I mean, I have this, you're right. I mean, it's very nice of you to say, um, Dan, you're absolutely irritating motor mouth. Um, uh, I don't, I don't, I really don't think that I think you're legitimately in honesty, I've enjoyed everything you've said. I really have. Like I find you, I find you very interesting. Um, it's just, I seem like you had a better time with Dave Keckner.

Well, I like that you went at the SNL people for it. You watched all the SNL people. Now, I listen to my favorite people. I started with Patton and then I went right to Keckner because I loved him and I thought it was amazing that I was like, why do my conversations with Keckner always go so quickly that one of us crying? And it was such a great, it was you making fun of him.

You had, well the reason I said that is because one of your blocks is constant interrupting of others and refusal and inability to be interrupted. So, but you've been pretty good. Face blindness, and, this, I, and I also empathize with a lot of these because, or sympathize, it, you've obviously accused yourself of being too egotistical to remember people.

Right, right. Right. I mean, I think that, yeah, I don't know. I took a test online for like clinical, like you have an actual medical excuse to be face blind. And I scored right above the medical excuse, which I took to mean a confirmation of my suspicion, which is it's not a spectrum thing.

It's a, I think my theory is that your brain in childhood, it's like the glucose is going to different, like, departments and budget meetings. And what profit was this little animal, like, getting from knowing the difference between which two guys is making fun of him for peeing with his pants around his ankles? Like, oh, that's Steve and that's Stucky. What are your birthdays? I've got to get the hell out of here so I can enslave these people with my talents. Yeah, I don't know their names.

So then your brain, by the time you want to know people's names, that part of your brain could be atrophied. Why am I using you statements? My, that part of my brain, I think is atrophied. And again, you said, these will have been up, but create, create, your creative blocks, inability to end scenes, jokes, conversations, tendency to chase tale and story,

choose between never ending, uh, re-breaks and giving up, uh, giving up feels like pushing a child off a cliff, re-breaking, meaning re-breaking the whole story and the whole plot and starting from scratch, uh, re-breaking feels like strangling a child while muttering, why can't you be more like the other ones at the bottom of the cliff? Never feels good.

But I think it's the same thing that I'm saying, which is I realized something about myself recently, which is people think I'm rude. I think it's, I grew up in Philadelphia and Chicago, and it's like, I think it's worse to be dishonest than to be rude. Yes. And which is wrong. Well, I don't know if it's wrong.

People would prefer you be dishonest. There's a million rude people who... who disguise themselves as... As, right. It's like endemic to them. Like, they're like, I'm just being honest. Like, they say it. No honest person finds themselves saying, I'm just being honest.

The phrase constructive criticism was invented by a shitty critic. Somebody who was giving unsolicited, bad, unhelpful criticism, because what good, helpful critic? So, yeah, I totally agree with you. Politeness has its roots in dishonesty and villainy. And so... And maybe I'm just giving it a favorable interpretation,

where I'm like, see, I want to be too... I'm probably just rude, but I realize like, oh, because I feel like being insincere is worse than being kind of cold or sore. Because you're keeping the communication open. So you're going to have you and I, you're, it's the self, it's the fact that you're a listener, that you don't have the, you're able, your ability to listen

and have concise thoughts combined with the so-called rudeness, meaning just the honesty, makes you a good interviewer. Yeah. Sometimes, yeah. Then we've got... Well, you can't help the subject. Sometimes you just get thrown a real piece of shit, is what you just said to me with your eyes.

You said it. You said it. Um, attached sounds... Yeah. I think we've covered it. Is there any... Is there anything that you feel you can do to help you? Mm, attached sounds, yeah. I think we've covered it. Is there any,

is there anything that you feel, were there things you thought we would talk about more that we didn't talk about? I have a very good, I had a great time and I really feel like I understand you. Yeah, I only regret, but it's not my job as an interview subject. I just, I was, yeah, I was looking forward to meeting you. Having listened to this podcast, I just want to say as a, as a, as a new fan,

I mean, it's like the list of people, like I was like, well, okay, this is like coming home and then listening to the interviews. Like you're you're adapting to each subject, to each person. Like you're very, very, very good interviewer and with a with a with a great podcast. So I kind of wanted to talk more about that, but that would make a bad podcast from your perspective, probably. Yeah. Yeah. And I also don podcast from your perspective, probably. Yeah.

Yeah. And I also don't take much pride in that. Yeah, of course you don't. I take pride in the stand up and the sketches, which I'm assuming you also love. Well, let's do a sketch. You asked if I thought there was something missing, we didn't do a sketch.

I don't want, I'm not gonna, I would literally never do that. I'd like a burger and a fry. I would never do that. It would have been a job interview if it was a sketch. And it is a sketch, so how do we end it? Freeze frame? Yeah, but turn the cameras off

and we'll do audio freeze frame. Fantastic. Dan Harmon, ladies and gentlemen. What an episode. What an episode!