Blocks w/ Neal Brennan - David Letterman

Episode Date: December 8, 2022

On the first episode of The Blocks Podcast, Neal Brennan interviews David Letterman.  Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234  Music by Asa Taconne. Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/2Lf6yvE Neal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nealbrennan  Twitter: https://twitter.com/nealbrennan  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. I was texting with my guest today and I said, side note, I want to interview you for a thing in New York or L.A. in the next month or so. And my guest wrote back, yes, please. For the love of God. Someone interview me.

And I said. You're a comedian on the rise. And I said. I said. My Netflix special is called blocks. So the premise of the interview would be. What are your blocks. Meaning what makes you feel crazy.

And alienated from the world. It'll be deep. You'll be very uncomfortable. And people will be grateful that you shared your vulnerability and you wrote back yes hurry my guest today ladies and gentlemen is i'm dave dave letterman i'm dave and while you were reading that uh prolonged uh prologue i sunk a three-pointer here with the paper towel. No small thing.

I'm very excited about that and feeling now much better about everything. Nice to see you. It's great to see you too. And having seen the live production of the show that you can now see on Netflix, I'm very happy for you and your success. How many of those have you done this is my second uh here's something you may not know you know who got special thanks oh that's cute what did what i did nothing you just can't dude it was nice that you came well no one expects you

here's a great thing about you no one expects anything that was so that was, uh, uh, the, the good part of that night was, uh, seating, being seated comfortably in the theater, the cherry, uh, yeah, cherry light. I'd never been there before. Very nice. Uh, and watching the show, everything before that, everything after that was fraught the pre-show. Well, it's a lot of interacting. it uh it once again it reminded me of why i just shouldn't leave the house because it went sideways in a hurry and then when when i thought the the first incursion had healed after the show it just got worse i know of one you all right well this is what i want to talk about. This is how bad it got.

The following day, I think I had to call you and apologize. You called Derek, the director. And I had to call Derek and apologize. Which you didn't have to apologize, and it was very funny. Yeah, because I thought I had, oh, good Lord. Well, we can talk about this. What's interesting about you is your TV show show the the late night show and the and the both late night shows you were you know incredibly confident and and like a great broadcaster but then i also would see you lay down in the middle of your monologue if a joke didn't

work like you were kind of openly no that's right i'd be wounded yeah yes yes which is an interesting combination like you were kind of openly wounded or openly cranky that's right i couldn't overcome that yeah i took it personally and but it's part of what made you appealing i don't know about that the thing that uh impresses me about you and your era your generation of comedian is this hour-long show i think that that's how long the the cherry 70 yeah the netflix's hour yeah yeah that's a remarkable piece of work uh i'm twice your age i couldn't put together an hour if I started from moments after my birth. You didn't have to though. No, but I'm in awe of people who can do it.

And that's, I'm very impressed by the change that stand-up comedy has achieved for itself. Because when I started, for a lot of people, it was a hobby. Get five minutes going, Merv Griffin. Thank you and good night you know you're set yeah uh not so much anymore it's a it's a real commitment and and I didn't have that don't have that but uh I'm very impressed but I think you obviously you could if you wanted to didn't you've done what's the most time you've done in the last five years um on stage not uh i don't know six minutes seven minutes i would argue that you could do more like what do you think you might have marty short dave here oh i thought you were my fault um did you did, what do you think of like when you see Marty Short and Steve Martin?

Steve obviously was a comic. Martin wasn't. So you've done shows with them, right? I did one show with them in Texas just as an interloper, just as a guest. Oh, hi, how are you? And their show, I loved it. I loved them. I loved their show.

I loved everything about it. And again, just in a bit of envy, like, whoa, these guys are committed. Their version of show business, completely different than my version of show business. I think that's a choice, though. I would argue it's a choice. I think it's hard for me to write because I'll write it once and then I'll write it another dozen times. And I find that the anxiety that accompanies that or drives that is crippling. So I can't imagine like the writing that you do.

And most of your writing, I guess, is in the afternoon and then on stage in the evening, uh, which is what comics do. And, uh, geez, I just, I,

if I were to do it over again, I would approach standup completely differently. This is what I want to speak to you about. You do strike me as a guy who based on the, your interaction at the show at my show oh you think things through you overthink things yeah i should have put that in the review a miserable night uh but you you tend to because i'm in the same boat where i'll i think i overthink i screwed that up i'm an asshole yeah what's wrong

with you why can't you just be normal like normal people that's right and what i found is i'm overstating it never nothing nothing's ever as bad as we think it is and people and even more so people don't even really notice everything's just flying yes that that's right but uh there are uh flags that make it all the worse and it's uh when the curtain comes down i'm speaking symbolically and you know it's not gone well and you walk off stage and no one will it's always this oh yeah nice job and and just, you, the hole just gets deeper and darker when you know, you've bombed and everybody around you, the energy undeniably, the energy is different, isn't it? Yes. Now is that self-generated? No, it's it's in that energy is in the room. That didn't go well. Everybody feels it. Everybody knows it.

Here's the reason for the shift in the energy. Right. Yeah, I agree. But it's like the are you paranoid or are they – it's like – Yeah, that's right. But now let me ask you this. I think we're talking about a universality here, aren't we? Yes.

Not just comics, people on the planet. Yeah, you kind of have to be a sociopath to think things are going well yeah yeah that's right so there is a bright side to being a sociopath yeah uh so when you talk about your life it a lot of it seems like you wish you had done things differently yes now when when i started doing stand-up comedy. But it's not just comedy. It seems like everything. Yeah. There's big things. There's some big things. Certain things are marginal, but big things, yes, I wish I had approached a few things differently. But in terms of stand-up comedy, I didn't know what I was getting into necessarily because my model was The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. And you would see two or three comedians on there each week,

and they would come out and they would do five and a half minutes, and then they would sit down with Johnny. So that was the goal. Get yourself five and a half minutes, sit down with Johnny. What I wish I had done was made my time on stage more anecdotal, more biographical, because who isn't endlessly fascinated by themselves so that well of material is infinite yeah okay do you find that you overly regret the life stuff i know you feel like you had kids too late, right? Yes. Had, had, yes. Absolutely.

Without question. Yes. A crucial, uh, yes. And that's a thing that makes you feel. Bad mistake. But, but now your relationship with your son, Harry is, seems to be your most cherished thing, right? You know, it's like every parent. There was a time when, uh, I should have addressed parenthood and delayed it and delayed it and delayed it because I thought, holy crap, are you

kidding me? It's a TV show. There's nothing more important than a TV show. Leave me alone. Uh, and then, yeah. And then we had, do you ever think though, like you waited too long you still had a great kid you still have an amazing relationship with the kid there is something to making a great thing uh right yes and i'm not talking about ammys i'm talking about no no yes yes you're you're correct about that there is that's a lovely of life, being able to do that. I'm just not convinced that that's what I did. But let's... You know that that's dysmorphia.

Okay. Do you know what I mean? Like, you did a great thing. You know, when I have this conversation with my wife, which is, uh, hour to hour, of course she, she always says, look, no, look at your, you, how many people did you employ? You had maybe a hundred people work for you. That's a great thing. That's something to be proud of. I just think, wow, you are on the wrong side of the freeway here. You ran like it's like owning a carpet factory or something. Yeah, that's right.

Like think about all the people. The local economy. You're not looking at a local economy. That's right. Yeah. Support your local merchants. And now having said that, there's probably nothing anyone can say. Of course not.

Right. Of course not. No. Now, let's just say, let's just pretend that this goes really well this will carry me through the next 24 i think it's going well well that's what i was going to explain to you we're not finished no but now let me ask you this are you this way you're this way and then some well first of all it's very hard to get a sense of what your life and or impact is right i think the best thing to do is look in the eyes of people that you trust who's been you trust Well, it's very hard to get a sense of what your life and or impact is, right?

I think the best thing to do is look in the eyes of people that you trust, who's been in your trust, and go, ah, they seem impressed. So I'm going to think that I must have done pretty well. Right, except that it's show business and people get paid to seem they're impressed. Yeah. You know, and I know when things go okay. I know when things don't go okay you know and and you're the ultimate and and only important judge really yeah how do you feel it's not how somebody else

feels how do i feel yeah and and if i feel like a worm leave me alone i feel like a worm and i'll get over it yeah how long does it take to get over it um eight hours 12 hours how long did it take to get over it? Eight hours, 12 hours. How long did it used to take? The beautiful thing, and maybe the reason that I stayed so long was you screw it up Monday, you come back Tuesday and apologize for Monday, and the sun comes up in a metaphoric sense. And then you get Wednesday, and maybe the sun goes a little higher in the sky. And then Thursday, maybe it drops out of the sky. And then Friday, it comes back up. So it was self-therapeutic.

Did you live by the Johnny Carson maxim that things are never as bad as the good shows are never as good and the bad shows are never as bad? The good shows are never as good and the bad shows are as bad or worse. Than you could even imagine. Yeah, yeah. When the show would suck, I would wait till it was very, very dark before I would leave the building. You told me that story one time, and I'm fascinated by it. You wouldn't, so you would have a bad show. I didn't want to be seen in daylight.

And the sun doesn't set till 8.30, 8.45. No, I'd be there 10 30 11 this is this is depressing me now so that's a block how did you deal with that were there points in your life where you were like i'm like the conclusion of my show which is like i'm not very kind to myself and trying to find some semblance of self-acceptance. Were there moments in your life was having Harry helpful in terms of like contextualizing yourself or getting some perspective? Well, what I learned eventually was I pursued a variety of things that would make me feel better about myself. And the thing that ultimately made me feel better about myself consistently was if I felt the show went okay, then I would feel better about myself. These 400

people reinforced and eradicated, erased, or disguised my self-doubt for an hour. So then I would feel okay about myself. And then I was able to help with that pharmaceutically. But Harry represented actual love, actual love to me. I love people in my life, but Harry was uh like ball lightning i've heard that's the good stuff kids for for me it was yes but i was uh so afraid that harry wouldn't like me that all i tried to do was entertain him so i look back on it now and I think, well, that was a miserable thing to do to the kid. Every night at dinner. Bits? Yeah, I'm doing bits.

That's right. Sock puppets and food and drink? I would try to engage him in improv at the dinner table and he just would have none of it. So even that, but yeah. But do you ever see things without revealing anything about him? Do you ever see tendencies in revealing anything about him do you ever see tendencies in him that you're like ah we gotta nip this like uh so he doesn't have this sort of no no he he doesn't seem to suffer what i suffer great he seems to have self-possession and and

confidence uh about who and what he is that, that apparently, uh, I, this is crap. No, that's the thing is you don't know the new show business. We all talk about our feelings openly and, and, uh,

and people are grateful because Dave, no one talks about this stuff. Uh, there's a guy named Bert Kreischer. Yeah, I know Bert. He's going to be so excited that you know who he is. He came to my attention

a couple of years ago because he's not wearing a shirt. Then I thought, oh, I must have come in halfway through the show and he auctioned his shirt off or something. But now subsequently, he's always without a shirt. I've asked people who should

know, what's that all about?'s like a part he likes he's the literally the life of the party he's like he loved it's remember like spuds mckenzie he's like spuds mckenzie but honestly right neil would you go to a party if you knew guys were going to have their shirts off i mean i wouldn't but that's not but i had to do a show about what's wrong with me so i it's not he's that party element people love partying but but he will put his shirt on one day well you know he's got the showbiz thing where he's like do they only like me because i don't wear my shirt? He's got his own self-doubt. No, is that true?

Swear to God. It's showbiz. So he is completely invested in his own hook. And without that. Well, now he's like, do they, am I actually funny? He's got a movie coming out and he wears a shirt through most of it. And I'm sure he's like, are they going to hate me for wearing a shirt? This is revelatory.

I thank you. that story is delightful that story is delightful because in my mind i'm thinking i'm the best looking guy in here without a shirt you know but that's not it at all he's a big he's got a big fat stomach yeah he's in horrible shape but he's got a big fat if he's in good shape he can't take a shirt off right then it's not funny so he would think that if you put a shirt on people would stop going to see him yes of course people are just the best yeah like we will defeat ourselves yeah that does not matter i i think you're right i think humanity is its own worst enemy and comes up with new and crazy ways to prove that each and every day i I'm tempted to call Bert.

I'm going to call Bert because he will absolutely love this, that you know who he is and are questioning him. What are the chances that you're actually going to get him on the phone? I think pretty good. Where does he live? He has two houses. In fact, this is how well the shirt thing's going. They just bought a third.

Wow. So, yeah, that's Bert. Well, see, this represents what I know about comedy in this generation. The industry of it, the commerce of it, is so far more than it was when I started. There was a list of what comics made last year. Want to guess what he made on the road? Well, I have no idea. $25 million. i'm sorry how many 25 million dollars burke did yes oh my god good for him yeah hold on let's get him on the phone let's see what this could this is like a radio contest

oh do you want to leave a message for him? Yeah. When you have finished recording, you may hang up or press 1 for more options. Hi, Bert. It's Neil Brennan and Dave Letterman, and we're talking about you and the fact you don't wear a shirt. And I was delighted and pleased to know two things. One, that you think without the shirt or without without the shirt people wouldn't like you and also last year on the road you made 25 million so all my best and congratulations great got that knocked out yep took care of that um do you ever see now do you ever think this is

way more fun than i thought it was gonna be uh. No, I knew you thought it was going to be treachery. Do you ever think... Do you have any other showbiz quests? Any other comedians that I can often make? Things may come to me, but this is the one that I was curious about. Yeah. So, do you ever look at your level of, like,

your neuroses as being kind of the engine for this great life you built for yourself because i know that you've got to think objectively because as i do this is going real like i you ever i think to myself sometimes like how much better could this be going and then you're into like you know it's like uh formula one stuff where it's like microseconds like how much more what higher peak is there for you you know well uh to to me uh i'm still at base camp honestly yeah i believe you know that that's it and and i looking back on the life now you own a race car team. Yeah. From talking.

Well, yeah. I don't have real problems. You're right. And the world is a real problem. So I feel stupid talking about it. Who else can we call? I mean, look, it's kind of endless at this point. You know everybody.

I do know a lot of people. Well, let's talk about your old partner, your old writing pal, Dave. Sure. Saturday Night Live. Yes. What did you think? Here's what I've explained to people. You ever hear that it's an old bumper sticker, I root for UCLA and anyone who's playing USC?

Dave is for black people and whoever white people are against. That's playing USC. Dave is for black people. And whoever white people are against. That's my interpretation. So I think he sees with Kanye and Kyrie getting in trouble. Like oh. Dave did a joke about OJ where he's like oh he's in trouble. Like he will defend whoever needs defending. So alright let's get back to you. We have a premise to work here which

is okay okay so the blocks of your life self-esteem i was i will say that having uh seen your stage version of the netflix show uh in addition to being uh interesting props very effective symbols yeah yeah they're good looking yeah and they were expensive you have them in your house i do uh they were very expensive good um now i will i will just got the idea maybe maybe i'll maybe i'll slide one your way oh thanks yeah and i'm it would mean the world to you um how did you find dealing with a staff did you find that hard i find find that very hard. I found it impossible. And I got to the point where I said, this is not, uh, why I left Indiana. I'm, I didn't leave Indiana to go into personnel. I just left Indiana because I thought I was funny and it made me feel good. If people would reinforce that doubt in a positive way that no, he is funny. Uh, but I, no, I was miserable at, I did, I didn't want to know

what was going on. I, and people would come to me with problems and people would be crying and I would make people cry. And I just, it just, uh, let the air out of the whole thing. And only, and I'm saying this is a shortcoming of mine. It's, it's, I don't know. It's hard. It's a different job. People, some people I know are very good at it. And from time to time on the staff, we would have, we always had a group of people that would, you know, the, excuse the expression, the adults in the room and they, they would be very good at it. I tell you, I I'm tired. Here's what I'm tired of. You know, I saw it the other day. Uh. Did you see what I did there?

When will that go away? Somebody doing that as a bit. Oh, I'm sorry. And then before that it was ish. Well, yes. Socks ish. You know that. When will that go away?

How does that start? And why do people think, oh, I'll put that in something because I heard somebody else do it. And it's got to be funny because I heard somebody else do it. How about I just threw up in my mouth. That was a big one. That was a big punchline for I didn't know that was a thing. That was a big throwing up in your mouth. Yeah. I mean, I've heard it. I didn't know it was one of those things I'm trying to describe. Yeah. No, it's you're talking about hacky comedy. Yeah. Um, uh, people, people watch bad comedy and think, Oh, I can do that that and then they go on to reproduce

bad comedy and also they it's i have a bigger theory which is people don't want you to get a laugh so they go i see what you did there and you're like you just made this less funny like i was being funny and then you made it less funny because you wanted to get in on it you wanted like an assist and you actually made it less but it never goes away there's always a new wave of them and i don't know how that starts it's just called i think you created a bunch of them it's like snl chapelle show did it your show did it like certain shows like uh adam mckay does it with will farrell all like ron burgundy and i'm yeah kind of a big deal that stuff and i think you're right about it but it's at a much higher far more palatable level than see what i did there

you know that's yes it's low it's low it's shitty it's crappy comedy what can be done about it uh i mean we can make pass laws about it well i retired so that takes some of the iron out of the fire no no did you i would just say right now when i was a kid and perhaps when you were a kid yeah boy i can hardly wait to be retired and spend all my time well that's that's a myth well yeah it's meaning it's incredibly boring yeah yeah yeah and and and not satisfying as a human pursuit yeah you need it well that's you need some kind of carrot to to to chase well that's what i was going to say so you you do find that worthwhile uh making the netflix show the great, the excellent Netflix show. How do you approach those segments different that do you see it as like a profile piece? I, um, uh, well, it's

different. I spent about six weeks getting my hands on every bit of, uh, performance or research I can about the person. Whereas when you're doing a nightly show, you get the stuff at lunch and you look over it and at five o'clock you're doing the show. So you get to know the person. And to me, that's the best part of it because these are people I don't know, uh, largely people I wouldn't get to know. Uh, and, and I, I find that part of it very satisfying. Well, that's what is, you do seem genuinely interested in people. Like you are a weirdly, like a humanistic guy. You like people. Am I crazy about that?

No, I, um, I, well, I, again, I'm talking about myself, but, um, I, I do, I, in, in any situation, I would like to talk to a person i i don't want them talking to me i would like to talk oh that interesting so maybe it's control maybe i'm one of those guys uh yeah i can i people think that's bad being a control freak but like that's how you're gonna do stuff but you don't you actually don't you're i feel like you're and i knew this would make the whole show make you uncomfortable that's why i knew you had to be the don't your i feel like you're and i knew this would make the whole show would make you uncomfortable that's why i knew you had to be the first guest am i the first game yeah because a jimmy carr pitched me the idea and i was like it's a good idea the great jimmy tell me what

you know about jimmy carr jimmy carr is we became friends maybe four or five years ago where geographically where the comedy store why was he he just happened to be he comes to america every once in a while all of his business is in europe and england specifically comes to america just to kind of like hello i'm jimmy and i'm doing great and i'm and uh i met he had watched three mics that day and he was like i can't but it's so great to meet you and like we became very good friends the thing about me is because of the types of show i make or the types of shows i've done people will kind of confess stuff to me so me and jimmy have a kind of uh helpful the kind of cute psychological relationship where we talk about our problems he's had like very bad panic that he's dealt with until about six months ago.

He would wake up every morning on the dot at 6 a.m. Like this every day panic 6 a.m. Like an alarm. And I, he's just did something to get him out of that. Uh, he's just a really funny, him out of that uh he's just a really funny great joke writer and he likes the action he likes having a lot of busy work and and that's the thing you know when people say when you look back in your life you're not going to think about work there's times when I'm like ah you know I've had some pretty special experiences at my, at my work.

Cause it's not a regular job. It's not construction. You know, I have like real, uh, connection, emotional connection with people that I don't think you get at most jobs. Uh, perhaps I, I think sometimes the notion that it's show business by which you get these special events in your life sort of undercut it. It's sort of like, yeah, okay. Oh yeah. You're with the circus. Fine. That's good. But, but Jimmy Carr, uh, I actually met him. Judd Apatow, uh, introduced me to Jimmy Carr and I knew quite a

lot about Jimmy Carr just from watching. He does quite a lot of work. And then I watched his most recent Netflix special and he comes out and he does this thing that of work. And then I watched his most recent Netflix special. And he comes out and he does this thing that I guess Ricky Gervais also does. These are just jokes. These are not the actual events. Nobody is getting hurt here. I'm just talking about something and it's only a joke and they're designed to make you laugh. And I thought to myself, well, that doesn't work.

But apparently it does work yeah people leave him alone right they did they finally got him on that special he made a joke about uh roma or gypsies as we know them made a joke about gypsies and the confederation of some a group condemned him for it and what was his penance for that he had to apologize he had to no i don't i actually don't think he ended up doing anything but that's what in this sort of cancel culture largely unless it's close to illegal you can say anything and it's it's kind of a fake cancel it's a bit there's a bit of a wrestling to it yeah they fake outrage and you fake contrition i understand that but what i thought was i was

so surprised that the the roma situation notwithstanding i felt so surprised that his firewall was this announcement at the top of the show. These are just jokes. Don't worry about it. I thought that nobody is going to let him off the hook with that. They'll just grandfather people in. You just get like, well, we can't get mad at him. Anthony Jeselnik talks about horrible stuff. It's Jeselnik. It's like when the DiCaprio, you don't have to get married. This is what you've been doing.

So if you just keep doing it, they will accept it. We have to get back to the premise. Well, no, no, wait a minute, because this, this, uh, I've seen Jimmy Carr on some panel show that he does and he comes, I didn't realize that he came to the United States. And at some point I become aware of the fact that Jimmy, for one reason or another, quit paying income tax. One year he did the thing that like most famous British rich people do, like the Rolling Stones got in trouble for it in the seventies, where you maybe say you live somewhere else, like some island or something. My inference was that this was more heinous that

this they made it seem more heinous my understanding was it was they were making an example of i see okay but it was no more heinous than anybody else so i was thinking if that happened to a comedian a well-known comedian in this country that person he or she may be done but but over there not only is he still working and thriving it's now part of his professional cv yeah that's right people are yeah well jimmy have your accountant call me it's like that now yes no yeah exactly well here you could almost make a case that the right wing would be like yeah don't pay taxes you know like you're forgetting about the new america way to go pal yeah like yeah i don't i wish i had the strength to not pay taxes like you yeah hey do you like me do you like the podcast do you like did you like blocks on netflix and free mics on netflix come see me on

my new tour brand new neil coming to madison nashville Lake City, San Diego, Washington, D.C., Baltimore, Atlanta, New Orleans. Thought it was going to be New York. New York's coming. Austin, Houston, Dallas, New York. Told you it was coming. Philly, Boston, Los Angeles. Figured it would be Angeles. Philly, Boston, Los Angeles.

Figured it would be Angeles. Los Angeles, Denver, Phoenix, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, Chicago, Minneapolis, Vancouver, Toronto. If you have a good airport, I'm coming to your city. So come fuck with me. It's a good hour. And it's called Brand New Neil. Go to neilbrennan.com for tickets. Please, cure my clinical depression.

Actually, it's not bad right now. Thanks to you. Let's talk about you. Your blocks. You had an alcohol problem at one point, which you overcame just by quitting. Yes. Yes. I had to quit. I started drinking.

It's the same old story. And it was for a while, and it was okay. Dad's having a scotch and soda at Christmas. What's that taste like, Dad? Well, here you go. Here you go. So I had it and loved it, whereas you think an 11-, 12 12 year old would be find it repellent i thought wow yeah pretty delicious yeah they make this for kids uh and that was that was the beginning of it

and and uh yeah and then i i just quit but you know i i just love being drunk you love you like the feeling i don't love everything about it yeah that's the that's what i was going to ask you about is so you're you always struck me as a guy who like when did you feel most uh attuned to the cult you feel like you're from you're like there's something old-fashioned about you especially when you make that face um there's something old-fashioned about you like you you make that face um there's something old-fashioned about you like you're from the 50s in a weird way like well i yeah i am i am from the 50s do you feel like do you feel anachronistic now do you look at the world at what year did

you start going like what the hell is happening because in the 80s you still seemed like you were just a cool you were a cool dude you were about as cool a dude as there was yeah i'm you were dave mcqueen you were for tv you were like the only cool person on tv and i know this kills you to hear it does uh doesn't kill me but i don't i i you know i anyway yeah that's an interesting question when did I realize that I had left the building? Yeah. Like, were you just, cause I'm starting to get there where I'm like, I don't know. Yeah. Like I don't relate and I don't like, I don't have the same values.

Well, it's, it's, uh, it's like a slow boiling infection. Uh, there's a phase where I don't, uh, geez, I don't know. Uh, what, what, what happened to, uh, what happened to, why, who are these people? Where's Frankie Valli? That's right. That was, I said, can we get Frankie Valli on the show? Is Tony Dow still working? But you would have like the clash.

You had good, you had really, really cool music on like that. Well, this is because I had smart people, sheila rogers and her production staff uh booking the show you know they that was their business was music so and paul oh my god uh paul was and still is although i think he's a little like i am now about uh yeah frankie valley well paul would love frankie valley well yeah they can he can, yeah, he can see the inherent value of Frankie Valli. But I always thought that the way you would do field pieces, your remote pieces, around in there, nobody was doing comedy like that where you just go outside and do comedy. I don't think. Now, maybe others were doing it.

But you had, you know, like half-hour syndicated shows like Los Angeles PM or whatever they were called when they'd go out and do features. We would go out and try to do something funny. So yeah, I think that's an accurate assessment. It was, now it would look anachronistic. Is there a part of you that felt like that you wanted to be rebellious on TV? I always thought, wait till I get on TV. I will be what everybody has been waiting for. And I really believed that. And I, and I had

people with me who felt the same way. Uh, the head writer in those days, Meryl felt the same way. And the people that she recruited felt the same way. And then, so we got on TV and we realized we're exactly opposite of what people want on TV for the morning show for the morning show and then later i was torn on the the late night show because i thought is it is it too weird should it be less weird should it be right down the middle of the road but i think luckily it was more weird than it was less weird that's what i wonder about is like i know when doing the the show i did it was there was like a level of anger to it wait a minute you did a show yeah tv show i don't like to talk about no what tv show

oh i'm saying it wasn't my show god here's neil can you imagine no i think this might i was having trouble this might be yes and we we we spared no is this a podcast this is a podcast but people here's what happens now people will put it on YouTube and it will get hundreds of thousands of views, if not millions. Really? Yes. For real. There's a little number here. Bert, stupid Bert.

I didn't, you're putting words in my mouth. He didn't say it, but it was, it was, it was coming from your neck. No, no, no, no. But now the next time you see Bert, he's like, I don't appreciate you calling me stupid. Is he going to, he'll have to go after you. No, he'll be like, I can't believe you called me stupid. You won't be able to understand what he's saying. I can of of your group and and you're in pretty good company your your comedic peer group and and your cv is very impressive thank you now i can just i can

dismiss it right but i can dismiss it like you can and you know you think i'm stupid when i dismiss just indulge me here so your friends tell me your friends okay we have dave your buddy my like class no yes your class well that's the thing is my class i'm sort of between above me above you how many years above you uh he started in the mid to late 90s i didn't start to like the around i did a little bit in the early 2000s but i didn't really start start till 2007 where is jerry seinfeld in the pantheon of comics where is jerry is he like he's just ascended he's like ascended to like a saint just yeah like no one's thinking like i'm doing i want to do those those Seinfeld, like he's just, he's just above, he's like his own thing.

But if he were to walk into, is the comedy store still where you guys go? If Jerry walks into the comedy store, it's like, oh Jesus, guess who's here? I think Burr, the guys who are like unbumpable, Burr, Sebastian, Sebastian made 20, Sebastian made more than Burr. Sebastian Maniscalco. I'm going to send you this list you know i've seen a couple of his shows funny funny very impressive like just well that's that's the thing i look at this and and i realize oh my god these people are so much smarter or or aware some so much more aware and have such a greater presence to put together an hour you would have done it just by

competition i don't know i believe it i believe that you would have done it if i were alive in the 70s and what about leno where where is he in this jay is with jerry it's just here so he's like above and beyond does corporates and just in this other all private jets and like just we don't you never see you're not going to bump into him at lax right but he he uh so in in your group who who is who is jay who who is jerry in your group millennia in my i would say millennia is in your group? I would say John Mulaney is in my group. In terms of like we did kind of shitty shows together like Bringer, not Bringer

quite Bringer shows but like Nick Kroll, John Mulaney, Aziz Ansari but I'm older than those guys so like I didn't do stand-up until after Spell Show so I don't feel the same like you know like you were biglia and mike and john millennia went to college together and nick crowe went to college

they all went to georgetown no did you did you want to always do stand-up or was the i mean because it's one of these things where being deferential can hurt you in that i didn't i would i was like ah it's a low impulse wanting to perform so i was like i like writing i like giving people tags i like i like working with dave and so we wrote a movie and whatever so i was always kind of like no and then he once he left the show i was like you know i gotta be more independent and not count on another person to to like my entire existence you know what i mean and then once i started it i love comedy so it's like i like doing the job i like doing well i like making these shows um and so but in terms of my class i'm a bit of a tweener because i was like had been a successful tv show person before

i started right so like melanie and those guys and then they got super popular quickly like melanie and aziz and then kroll and verbig like they were sort of like parent parent parent and i was kind of like yeah i just i did really start from scratch uh in my group uh the funniest was jay there there were other people that would come in and put on a better show but just funny to funny it was always jay i saw clips when he was on your late night show he was always really funny and you were very generous to give him an outlet i have a question about that do you what do you think of that looking back on it the rivalry and the late night wars and all that stuff and do you like obviously maybe you think it's a shame maybe like how do you how do you categorize it in your mind well it's uh overall it's embarrassing uh because i don't want to be

the guy who's uh pissed off because oh i didn't get so-and-so because I didn't truly feel that way. You didn't feel that way? No, no. How did you feel? It wasn't my choice. You know, I, no, nobody ever came to me and said, we would like you to host the Tonight Show. So, okay. They didn't want me to host the Tonight Show. So I can live with that. It wasn't as though I had made a mistake as far as I knew. Yeah. So, and I thought maybe we would just take our show, move it to California, but that didn't happen. And be the Tonight Show.

Yeah. And I think it probably worked out for the best. Jay did a great job. Hey, you know who else did? Oh, the guy with the gray beard? My friend Gray Beard? We'll be right back. Yeah, no, embarrassed.

Just a little embarrassed. Like making it public or no it was because look um there there are things one looks for in in a friendship and if they're there you have a friendship and you hope you supply an equal the same things if they're not there you're not not friends, and that's fine too. It can be very painful though. In this case, it wasn't painful, but let's don't pretend we're friends. Right, got it.

Was there a part of you with the self-loathing part of you, did a part of you go like, well, you don't deserve it? No. Oh, good. No, no. Oh, I don't deserve it? No, no. Oh, I don't deserve it? Yeah. No, no. The part of what turned on me was, oh, my, I may never work again.

So I tortured myself about that. That's the thing that no one would believe is how much talented people think I'm never going to work again. Well, in show business, it's true. You may have to go to the end of the line. Well, in show business, it's true. You may have to go to the end of the line. And see, I don't even know now if it's harder or easier to become you. Was it easier for me to become me?

Was it easier for you to become you? What about Bert Kreischer? He takes off his shirt and makes $25 million. It's unbelievable. So is that easier or harder than what you did? Yeah, I don't know i did well now the cool thing is there's so many paths yeah there really are there's just so many because there's because comedians are like very valued right now just in the last 10 15 years because they we do provide a valuable thing which is like independent thought uh there's no you know i always explain to people like so that the government is kind of like very corrupt media is corrupt clergy is corrupt then who do you look for

then you look to like we look to john stewart we look to you after 9-11 or we look to that shouldn't really be the case you know what i mean i'm not saying we didn't look to it used to be cronkite right it was like yeah it was it was these pillars and then it the culture shifted and a lot of those those uh institutions failed so other people took their place right other people took their place and while you say that really shouldn't be the case, on the other hand, maybe to have a broader foundation and a wider variety, maybe that's just natural. Maybe that's the way. Yeah, maybe it's better. Maybe. Maybe it makes an invaluable source of information easier to access. Well, I'd rather, I mean,

look, I'd ultimately like if I can hear it from Dave Chappelle or, uh, Ari Melber, like I'd rather hear it, but like he, they're more, we're more entertaining. Shout out to Ari Melber.

I mean, Ari, I did the show two weeks ago. Come on, Ari. God bless. where he's wear shorts. Oh,

does he really? Yeah. Yeah. And he, he knows more about hip-hop man does he know any 10 people ask him yeah um in fact don't even ask don't even ask him i do wonder about that where you look back on that and you just go like should you have been more private about it do you was it your own hurt feelings well i'll tell you i'll tell you what what it was

the the fulcrum of the whole thing was I, uh, called and I've, I've mentioned this before. I called Jay to congratulate him on getting the job. And then Jay said, well, what will you do now? And I said, oh, I may do this. Oh, I may do that. I may do this. I may do that. And it was, I felt on both sides heartfelt. And this is going to sound so stupid. The next week, this is a story in the National Enquirer. And it has a hyperbolic, exaggerated version of what I said. Outraged, steaming with anger, blood spitting like that. And I just felt like that was yeah that was not that was not necessary uh were you when

you got all this sort of other networks uh vying for you were you did you were you like excited for yourself or flattered by the attention uh sure yeah because i you like i said earlier i went from a position of holy gosh i'll never work again to oh, we got a Brandon Tartikoff's at Paramount, and they're talking about this, and Fox is coming in, and CBS is here, and like that. Yeah, so it was. But it's show business, ultimately show business. I'm now one of those guys.

I'm officially on record as whining about my life, and I have really nothing to complain about come to the right place yeah i guess i did nobody told me i'd be the first well you don't have to be i'm not i don't know how i'm gonna roll them out okay well i'd like to be what do you give me a pick a number well who would no now you want to know wait a minute who else have you booked the competition between value like corn pone values dave and showbiz dave because there's a europe showbiz animal yeah no i you still want to win i i think first is exactly where i want to be yeah why not yeah why not um and do you that's the what do you make of because you are still you

ask ted how your show does you want to know how your show does on Netflix? I talked to Ted. Ted's been very kind to me. Ted and I have a very friendly relationship, unlike any other. You know Ted, isn't he? Yeah, he has a party and I go. Oh. You don't have to dismiss it like that.

He's like another person I've worked for or worked with in that that capacity yeah he uh is a big fan of comedy and he's been very very nice to me and very supportive yeah yeah so i'm uh i guess where i am now with netflix and with ted is maybe the best place in that dynamic that i've ever, ever worked in. So when you talk about you'd be bummed from doing a bad show, my God, horrible. Yeah. And then, then you cheer up. Do you ever think to yourself, this is short month. This is like a bad casino to be in this self-esteem and good feelings based on how good the writing or whatever.

I feel that way about a lot of aspects when you get from this, from this perspective, I, I look at things and I just realize, why did I invest any emotion in that or in that person or in this project at all? But you also find it valuable because it is not the way I once did because I don't know if you, not the way I once did. Because I don't know if you, you must have done this when you were doing a regular show or when you're putting together your one hour shows for Netflix. Now streaming. Yeah. Doing a plug on my own show.

What a weasel move. Gotta see it. Yeah. It's like your head is in the sand. You know, you're the center of your own universe and nothing else counts. Well, that's a mistake. That's 180 degree mistake. And, and I was in that for 30 years and not until I got out of it, did I realize, oh yeah, it's a TV show. Yeah. And it was not only that, it was a device to make me feel better about myself. When the show ended, how did you, while it's not refillable, what did you do as a, as a, as a new thing?

Well, it's, it's funny. You go through this crush and I have a friend of mine now who's going through it where all of a sudden a wide variety of opportunities present themselves. And it's like, oh my God, I'll just go out and pick one of these. And it's the same meeting. So Dave, what would you like to do? And I think, holy crap, I did it for 30 years. I was hoping you'd have an idea. And the next thing you know, the meetings get farther and farther between and the offers don't seem as real and so that helps you into that uh you're just uh you know sparring with oblivion so uh and and then that that's why i have great uh happiness

with ted because they were nice enough to help me with this but there's no obvious self-esteem mechanism obviously seeing yourself on the front page of netflix great now maybe you got in the top 10 maybe you're trending that stuff's nice yeah it is so i wonder what how you're getting the getting the morphine so well like like this dopamine dopamine sorry so thank you like like this you know i'll feel depending on how what i hear from uh that woman over there she doesn't lie god i wish you would we'd both be so much happier fantastic yeah valuable but painful no so this is this is nice because who doesn't want to talk endlessly about themselves that i don't i will say that you should do more podcasts because you're very good on them yeah but you but you

think you're i think you're gonna be happy with not that many of them is a thing no i know you can't find one no um that you would enjoy i like your interest in the lower uh people that have not the younger comics i find it admirable and like uh like it feels like your heart's in the right place like you're interested you you watch people you like it's cool not even like i admire it's just like you're you like comedy you're in it like right good keep being interested in it yeah yeah i i wonder if i'm interested enough i wonder if if my range of interest is broad enough, is deep enough. I mean, I know a few things, and I know how it's going. And then I see names that I don't recognize at all, I've never heard of before.

But by gosh, good for them. There they go. They've got the one-hour streaming show. Yeah. And then there was, I did this thing for the Netflix comedy festival and we had- What was the name of it?

Oh, That's My Time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And there was a kid on there from Boston, Sam Morrell. Yeah, Sam Morrell. And so he couldn't do something and he couldn't do something. So what he did was he videoed his own thing and then put it on YouTube and 18 million people saw it.

He got no money out of the 18 million people except that booked him for the rest of his life. And I just thought, holy Jiminy. That's. Yeah. Did I say Jiminy? I think you did. Because of the last minute I was going to say Jesus. Does the beard put thoughts in your head?

Does the beard make you say shit like Jiminy every once in a while and hijacks you? I wish something would put thoughts in my head. But I just thought, honest to Christ, he built this in his basement. Yeah. It's literally that. It really takes the. Now, could you have done that if Netflix said, eh, no dice? I think I could have done it would i could i've done it on on youtube maybe i think the venue helps me i mean legitimizes you obviously oh yeah once you hit netflix or now they're the

competition is is uh or the opportunity for comics is is broader than it had been right yeah for sure but there's still netflix is still the gold standard um but my question for you is so where so did you wean yourself off of that level of uh a crowd 400 people or did you replace it i would do things like i went down to texas and It's like being a former athlete in a weird way. That's right. You don't want to be the casino greeter. Yeah. Or, or maybe you do.

I don't know, but I would go down and I would be with Steve Martin and Marty Short on their show. And that was great fun. And, and I enjoyed the experience. And you did that with smaller live shows and. Yeah. He just little anything here and there. Uh, like the, the other day the other day, Chris Russo.

Yeah, the Mad Dog. So he's inducted into the Radio Hall of Fame. Yeah. And they asked me if I would call in and congratulate him, so I did. And that was fine. I thought, oh, there you go. Yeah, you get something. You get a little kiss.

Yeah, that's all you want, really. Because I don't know if you're at that stage now, but I can't imagine going on the road honing an hour special. Well, that's the funny thing. And so I released this. Blocks. Now streaming. What a fucking weasel move. I released blocks and then they go go there's a limo outside

waiting for you and you go am i going to the ammys and they go you're going to the airport you just have to go on the road you're like uh this it's a again grateful yeah but it's wearying for sure yeah it's hard on your body right that's right So I had enough of whatever the routine is. I had enough of my routine. So small things here and there are useful. And do you find yourself overall healthier, like mentally? No, no, I wouldn't say so. But it works. It works. But there are too many other things to deal with other than your own peace of mind or things that assault your peace of mind. I mean, the idea of retirement being your golden years is just horseshit. I don't know. Let's talk about, I'm so tired of talking about me, although I really enjoy talking about myself, but I'm sick of it.

I just want you to be doing good. Thank you. Like, you know what I mean? Like I want, and people, by the way, people feel that way about me. They like, Hey, I hope they watch the show and they think like I'm in bad shape. I know that what you're going through is manageable. Cause I'm, cause I'm managing it myself. We're both very lucky. We just have some, we have an inner model and we got a tape that's a little faulty.

I just finished reading the Michelle Obama book and I thought, well, let me see what she's up to in her second book here. And page after page after page, it's exactly what you and I are talking about. She struggles with the same thing. And I thought, wow, okay, it has to be universal. Yeah. Like that's everybody. And I are representative of this issue. It has to be everywhere. Yeah. And do you have a plan to, do you work on it?

Well, she really works on it. And I, and, and what, what I work on and again, going back to the Chris Russo thing, who knows if anybody heard that, who knows if anybody heard that? Who knows if it was even on the air? But just the act of trying to make him laugh, that was good for a week. And you know when the bat cracks. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I heard it crack here a couple hours ago. Here's what I want to say to you. Yeah. Again, you're not going to like it i think you're incredibly valuable i think you're incredibly unique i think that any i i wish if i could take your doubt from you i would uh you're you're uh you're also you you are and were always such a cool, uh, fixture in American life. And, um, and I just think you're just excellent beyond not in, it's not going to help you minute to minute. I'm just letting you know, you respect me. I respect you. Thank you a lot. Thank you. I would, honestly, I would feel better about myself if I could have done what you have done with the current Netflix effort.

You want to hear a small world story? Yeah. I wish I could have had a TV show for 30 years. Oh, that's sweet. We'll be right back. Did you bring a clip? Bye.