Blocks w/ Neal Brennan - Jason Reitman

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

Neal Brennan interviews Jason Reitman ('Saturday Night,' 'Ghostbusters: Afterlife,' 'Up in the Air,' 'Juno,' 'Thank You For Smoking' & more) about the things that make him feel lonely, isolated, and like something's wrong - and how he is persevering despite these blocks. ---------------------------------------------------------- 00:00 Intro 1:30 Fears Obituary Credits  3:00 Reason for Making 'Juno' 6:00 Ego After Making ‘Up In The Air’ 7:45 Being Ivan Reitman’s son 11:00 Ambition & Nepotism 14:22 Saturday Night  23:08 Sponsor: ZocDoc 24:50 Sponsor: BetterHelp 26:25 Anxiety 30:05 Writing about show business 32:23 What his movies are really about 36:33 Young Adult 37:40 Movies that Hurt 39:22 Ghostbusters: Afterlife 43:51 Sponsor: The Perfect Jean 45:07 Sponsor: Verso 46:26 Indie Director in Studio Director's Body 47:40 Movie Theaters vs. Streaming 55:15 Shame  ---------------------------------------------------------- Follow Neal Brennan: https://www.instagram.com/nealbrennan https://twitter.com/nealbrennan https://www.tiktok.com/@mrnealbrennan Watch Neal Brennan: Crazy Good on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81728557 Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234 Theme music by Electric Guest (unreleased). Edited by Will Hagle ([e-mail])  Sponsors: Visit https://www.zocdoc.com/NEAL to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://www.betterhelp.com/neal and get on your way to being your best self. F*%k your khakis and get The Perfect Jean 15% off with the code [NEAL15] at theperfectjean.nyc/[NEAL15] #theperfectjeanpod  Visit https://ver.so/ and use coupon code NEAL at checkout to save 15% on your first order. Sponsor Blocks: https://public.liveread.io/media-kit/blocks ---------------------------------------------------------- #podcast #comedy #mentalhealth #standup Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Before you watch this thing hit subscribe would you guys my guest today? This is the blocks pockets by the way, you know, but I mean my guest today is a Filmmaker and writer and producer and he's done the following movies. He did thank you for smoking wrote it and directed it Juno Wrote and directed it up in the right it directed it didn't write it Diablo Cody wrote it Shame on me up in the air co-wrote and directed it. Young Adult, Diablo Cody wrote that. You directed it. Labor Day.

Men, Women, and Children. Tully. The Front Runner. Then he did Ghostbusters Afterlife, co-wrote and directed. And the new Saturday Night movie, co-wrote and directed. Shot it a couple months ago when it's out. Already, somehow.

You know what's funny? Is having watched filmmakers my whole life where when someone goes over their filmography and you see where they're like, got to speed through this section. No, I know. Well, that's what, so looking at, so when I think of you, I just go,

fucking up in the air, you know, and then I saw you were doing Ghostbusters and I was like, all right, good. Right, right. And then I look on were doing Ghostbusters and I was like, all right, good. Right, right. And then I look on your IMDB and it's like 10 years between those things. Now you live every one of those days. Yes.

But as someone who's just a fan and aware of you, I'm like, ah, Jason's doing good somewhere. This is, I mean, you've already gotten into a block that I probably didn't even give you, which is I think everybody is judging themselves on a daily basis, on an hourly basis. At the end of the day, you're a bitch where he goes, they did these three things.

Yep, I did Chappelle Show and a bunch of Netflix specials. There's a 15 year gap. Yeah, exactly. Or a 10, 12 year gap, but like, eh. And people are going, Neil's lights out. Yeah. You know? This guy never misses, almost always misses.

But yeah, no, that's exactly right. Like, because that guy's a fucking killer. Meanwhile, I'm like, oh, I bombed yesterday, the day before. If I could live within the psyche of the people who hate me, that would be awesome. Well, I have some good and bad news for you. You do.

The people that hate you are the people that are thinking about you every day going like, it's been a while. It's been a while. I don't know, man. You might have lost it. Ah, you got to do Ghostbusters? Ooh, you finally broke open that piggy bank.

Wait a second. Ooh. Oh, that's good. Wait, do you think that it is the people who are fond of you or the people who hate you who think you are doing better or worse? The people that are fond of you. Think you are doing good.

People that hate you are thinking about, are the ones who are hate watching your stuff and looking at your box office and. Can I make, can I push back? Please. There's a version where the people who hate you are the ones who are upset because they think you're actually doing good. And it's the people who are fond of you who are nervous for you if they're thinking, oh,

maybe that one didn't do quite as good. Yeah. I really love them. I want them to do great. But I also think the people that like you and know you or are fans of you, like, know... I don't know what the worry is about, but, like, they know you can... You could... I was aware you could do a studio movie

whenever you wanted. Just, like... I wasn't... I just knew you did Juno up in the air. Right. Young adult, and I was like, yeah, he's crushing it. And it's... I assume... looking at the IMDb, it was almost like watching showbiz change. Meaning it's like, well, now you're in a franchise world,

even Saturday night's kind of a franchise movie. That's interesting. In a weird way. Like you're just going, fuck it. You know what I mean? Like, I guess it's either, the budget's either gonna be 500 grand or 50 million. It wasn't the psyche. I mean, I can give you the logic.

Please. Behind the choices. Because Up and Tell, Ghostbusters, every film I made was for personal reasons. You know, the moment I decided to become a director is when I just felt- But there was upside. You were making money on these movies, right? By accident.

Right, but whether money's money. They don't... No, but I mean, you know, we go and make Juno, and I've just made Thank You for Smoking, which was a film festival hit, and actually went into theaters and did a little bit of money. And then we go and we make... So you make a little something.

A little something. I mean, no, I made Writers Guild scale and Directors Guild scale. So, that's it. So, 80 grand, 90 grand? I'm not gonna... Come on. Look at that. Why would I do that? Why? I hate...

No, because I... Because people... Everyone in LA makes a million dollars in people's minds, I think in the psyche and no I guess I'm actually happy you brought it up this way because What we're talking about two different things right? Which is one is like how much are they paying you personally to do something but also more importantly how much are they giving you? to make something with which Right you're way more ordinary your the budget of the thing versus your salary.

Born the son of the director of Ghostbusters. I've never stopped and thought, oh, what are they gonna pay me to make this independent film? What I thought about is, well, I have the control and the ability to make the movie. And when I go to McJuno, we're making this, $7 million teen pregnancy comedy starring actors that people generally don't know,

you know, except for Jennifer Garner. And then it goes and makes 200 million dollars. And it makes people think that I know something that I don't, and it makes people think that somehow the films I make are gonna make hundreds of millions of dollars, which they're not. And it's more confusing than that. Were you aware of that?

Because that's the thing, it's like, that can happen where people go, well now you know this, and you're like, I don't know, you don't wanna say, I don't know anything. But you don't wanna like shake people's confidence and want them to give you money, but at the same time, you don't wanna mislead them.

I think after Up In The Air, which was also successful, I think my ego was probably out of control and too many people probably told me. You may not remember this? in the air, which was also successful, I think my ego was probably out of control and too many people probably told me. You may not remember this. Saw you at a party, went up in the air, was out. Yeah. And I go, hey man, I saw the movie, it was really great.

And you go, you do me a favor, just tell me it was overrated. And I go, oh, it was overrated. Did I really say that? Yep. And we just walked, I went, oh yeah, it was overrated. And you go, thank you. Was there a hint of comedy in what I was saying? Yeah, oh yeah, it was overrated. And you go, thank you. Was there a hint of comedy in what I was saying?

Yeah, it was, it was, it was, you were leaving a party and you must have gotten glorified in some way. Yeah. And you were just kind of like, you seem cynical. You, sir. You seem, and it's like one of my favorite Hollywood stories cause there's, I could talk about your movie. I feel like we're about to enter

like a Jerry O'Connell situation, where it's like, I'm not sure if that was the tone. I'm not sure if that was the tone. No, that's very funny. But yes, that was a funny, like there's so many of those moments in Saturday Night. I remember saying that joke at the time. I remember up in the air, it was being universally praised

and I would make that joke at the time. I remember up in the air was being universally praised and I would make that joke, particularly to someone like you, where I'm like, just, you know. Stop it. Tell me it's fucking overrated. And because people are being too kind, but also I was believing the people who were saying, you're a genius and my ego is soaring.

Well, why wouldn't you? If enough people say it. Well, and it happened really early. I got really lucky really young, and that's, yeah, it's really dangerous. It makes you believe shit that's not true. How did you disabuse yourself of all the things you've learned,

all the fake things you learned about yourself? I mean, it's like, you know, I went through a weird curve, because I think early on, I grew up thinking, well, I'm the son of Ivan Reitman, and that's literally the only way anyone will ever view me. And people are gonna hate me because of that, and people will think that I'm just a spoiled brat

who was given everything, who doesn't know how to do shit, and that's gonna be the perception. And then the perception was like, the opposite, coming off of those few films. He's not the son of Ivan Reitman. And then, yeah, and then it was horrible. The opposite meaning like, oh, you're almost better than Ivan Reitman.

No, no, no, I just mean like, I think you grow up the son of a famous director and just people presume, you know, you don't know how to do shit. Like you literally don't know how to do laundry. Like you don't know how to be a human being. Right. And you haven't bothered trying in your life because why? And you probably have an alcohol or drug problem.

Like all these things that people presumed about me. And or I thought people presumed about me. And after up in the air, I just had films that bombed and films that people didn't like. I got divorced, like a whole bunch of shit happened. That was pretty humbling. And it was genuinely humbling?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, that's the funny thing is like, you get a lead, no, it's all, we all end up having kind of the same experience. Do you know what I mean? Like all in, obviously like some... Well, and you're talking about like also just like people who got lucky enough to have a hit in the first place.

But yeah, like amongst the people who like got to play, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you end up having three killers and eight bombs. And probably what your dad had more or less. By the way, a million percent. And set sign, I've always been fortunate enough in that I got to watch my father and his career and the way he reacted to it and in real time.

And I would see him frustrated over the fact that there was 15 years straight of movies that are just not remembered, you know? Yeah. My super ex-girlfriend, you know? Do you think? Films that were just like people just they lost to time and no one gives a shit.

Did he handle it well? Not at the time. Did he, obviously you came to understand probably every ounce of what he went through. Do you, could you learn from it and go, I not gonna do that? My last conversation with my father was a long, beautiful five hour conversation,

but a lot of it was me saying, you gotta slow down. Like, go see the world. I remember telling my dad, I said, what's a place in the world you've never been to? You always wanted to go. And he looked at me for like a long time and then finally went nowhere. He said nowhere?

No, I'm good. He just wanted to go make another movie. How, how, how did he die? Out of nowhere, out of literally, I just got a call the first time in the morning. He was 75 years old, just woke up. He didn't wake up. And heart attack?

We don't, We don't know. Okay, well do you think, Like that's gonna be- Are you trying to avoid that? I mean, like all of us, or many of us, I'm trying to study every director I know and try to figure out, okay, what is the path? I mean, did you do that? Did you do that with standup?

Did you do that with comedy? Where you're just going like- Yeah, you mentioned ambition as one of your blocks. It's the crossroads between nepotism and ambition, which I think is interesting. And, but you kinda, I am very, I was more ambitious. I've gotten less ambitious over time because you just go, what kind of life am I trying to live? And what's worth, what kind of life am I trying to live?

And what's worth, what kind of life is worth living? Because your dad had an, from the outside in, enviable life. Anybody who's like, I think I've been everywhere. Well, particularly where he started. You know, my grandparents were Holocaust survivors. My grandparents, when my father was four years old, escaped a small town on the border of Hungary and Slovakia My grandparents were Holocaust survivors. My grandparents, when my father was four years old,

escaped a small town on the border of Hungary and Slovakia onto the floorboards of a boat, you know? And then he arrives in Toronto, doesn't speak the language, doesn't speak English, and he goes on to be one of the most successful directors in history. Like, yeah, I mean, not only was his success, but the trajectory is insane.

And was, how about his temperament? What do you mean? That's where I get into what sort of life is worth living. What kind of person should one be? He learned to enjoy it more. Yeah. I'm trying to do that faster. When you say faster, I'm assuming he was in his sixties or something?

I think he began to enjoy it later. And one thing that I think I've definitely started to enjoy earlier is the love of actually just making the movies. And when I first started making films, it really was just outcome-based. It's just like, you know, I know where I want to get to. And I think if you had probably seen me on set, you'd see a pretty stressed- out, miserable person who's just trying

to get to the finish line. And if you saw me on the set of my last three or four movies, you'd say, that's a pretty happy guy. Like, that's the happiest I'm... How and why did you make the transition? Begin to realize that's actually the best part of it. And... for so many reasons.

I mean, one, and I think you probably know this bit, is when you're working with talented people, there's a moment where you see them do something special and you realize you just watched something for the first time that everyone else is going to see. And it's extraordinary. You start looking forward to those moments. Two, when you start realizing that, all right, when you show up on set and there's over 100 people there who are only trying to make you a better storyteller. Um, when I say you have gratitude, it's not like a yoga way.

Like, you really can't help but have gratitude for this group of people who just are killing themselves. They're waking up at the crack of dawn and, you know, ignoring their families and sacrificing everything, just so you could tell your little story. Like, the moment that actually, actually like dawns on you, you realize, oh, this is a really nice place to be.

I'm surrounded by people. And was that something you were sort of like, you would give lip service too early, but then the older you got, you're like, oh. Yeah, and then you start to realize, oh, that's a real thing. And well, also because the people I make movies with are genuinely close friends.

And I'm not saying like the stars, I mean, like my crew. Like these are my close friends. These are people I email, I hang out with, I have movie nights with. And so when we go make a movie together, I'm with people I really like. Yeah. And so I genuinely learned to love the process

and appreciate that. I wanna talk about the Saturday Night movie. Okay. How did you approach it knowing some of these people? Meaning you must, I mean you know Lorne a little, right? Does anybody know Lorne? Really, at the end of the day. It was funny seeing the girl give his backstory.

I was like, oh. Lorne lost his dad when he was 14. Yeah, you suddenly go, oh. Yeah, but I mean again, if you give someone's backstory, if their dad died, you go, oh, that explains everything, and it doesn't matter what everything is. It's like, and then he went on to whatever. The one thing I really found fascinating about his backstory

was that his father died, and they were meant to move, and then they didn't, but his mom had already sold all their furniture, and so at 14, he lived in a house without a father or furniture for a year. Yeah. That I found fascinating. As a metaphor and an actual. I mean, the idea that he's gonna go on

and create the orphanage for every wayward comedian in the last 50 years, like that kind of makes sense. Okay, well, here's the other thing is, are you kind of worshiping at this altar? Which may, like, how do you approach that? And then how would you feel if someone made a Ghostbusters version? Huh. It'd be really interesting. Although, look...

Meaning a biopic about the origin of Ghostbusters. Yeah, no, I get it. No, but... I'm talking to the people at home. So first, I gotta kind of share another dad story, which is... One day, my dad calls me up and says, you gotta come over to the house and watch 24 with me.

And I was like, the Kiefer Sutherland show? And he's like, yeah, it's great. All right, so I go to my dad's house and he puts on the show and we watch three episodes of 24 and it's fantastic. Do you ever watch it? Yeah. It's like a fantastic show.

Yep. It's him. Jack Bauer. And I go to him and I say, this is great. So why is this show so good? There's so many shows about terrorism. Why is this one so good? And my dad looked at me like I was crazy and he goes,

this isn't a show about terrorism. Terrorism is a location. This is a show about a man trying to keep his family together. Never mistake your location for your plot. Right. And it's like one of the most important directing lessons I ever learned. SNL really isn't your plot. Right. And it's like one of the most important directing lessons I ever learned. SNL really isn't the plot.

SNL is a location. And so when you ask about Warship MacGyver the altar, it's like, yes, I'm like you, I'm like everybody else. The moment I discovered SNL, I was like, this is everything I've always been looking for. This is the island I need to get to. When I had, as a 15 year old, if you asked me, what do you want to do for a living when you're older?

It would either be make movies, be a writer at SNL. That's the two dreams. So obsessed, read the books, looked at the, you know, would look at those photos of the table reads and like, you know, the whole thing. When I made Juno, my agent asked me like, what do you want to do next? And I said,

do you think they'd ever let me be a guest writer at SNL? And Lauren said yes, and he let me write there for a week. And it was just, it was everything. It was like, it was getting to dress up for the Dodgers. Like, whatever. So, yes, in that way, I've always been obsessed with SNL. But what I was more interested in was... Two things from a filmmaking point of view. One...

Can I capture what it's like when a piece of genius comes in the universe? Like, what does it feel like? What does it look like? Similarly, Peter Jackson made that documentary about the Beatles. Mm-hmm. All the Ring footage from the... Yeah, yeah, exactly. The surveillance footage of the Beatles that he cobbled together. And then... That's really funny.

Um, to, uh, what I'd really been obsessed with was making a movie in real time. What I've wanted to do forever was make a movie where... Like 24. Like, like 24. That's the lesson I took away from my father. Have a tick, literally have a ticking clock on screen. Okay.

Exactly. I guess we all do rewatch 24. All right. You hit a stopwatch, the movie starts. Right. And you're off to the races. That's something that really interested me. And how many characters could we follow and could we create such a deep sense of reality

that it felt like you just kind of got dropped into that location and... Now that's obviously not what happened. What do you mean? Between 10 and 1130. No. On whatever that day was. No. How do you feel about squeezing it? I feel fine, it's a movie.

Like, it's so funny. Okay, fine, fine. It's, you know, it's actually kind of nice to be at like this point in the process of talking about the film, because obviously on day one of interviews, I'm trying to be so careful about the way I explain. They're like, oh, we took events from four months, weeks, do you condense it down? This is what they do in movies all the time.

But look, just talking to you, like, what the fuck? It's a movie. What are we talking about? All these things happened. They didn't happen on that night, but they did happen. I'm telling a story. And to say that this is a documentary about SNL is just to not even understand what a movie is. So the one question I had is, do you think, Lorne,

that thing about it's an all-nighter? It's an all-nighter in the city. His explanation of what the show should be. Yeah. Did he ever say that I wrote that? Okay, so I agree with you. Yeah, did he? What does he said about it? If you can if whatever you can learn place things very close to the vast right and I guess I'll say that he's

Lauren's been really generous with me. Mm- your dad, contemporaries, buddies, friends. Yeah, but not, look. Probably rivals a little bit, I'm betting. Yeah, the same exact age, both Torontonian Jews who discovered the same group of brilliant comedians and both had success with them. And look, you know this business well enough. I never heard either of them say a mean thing

about the other, but we never, like, I didn't spend Christmas with the Michaels. I think one was on LA and when it was in New York, they were doing their own thing. And also, and I'm not sure if you've felt this, but particularly in comedy and particularly from that era, there's a sense of competition that was uglier than it is now. And also more open.

What do you mean? Openly hostile. Yeah. Yeah, and... Like there's the fist fight between, you know, Trevi and... Yeah, of course. And Bill. I'm gonna shove it up your fucking ass! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! And I think with each previous generation, it's even gnarlier. I'm a son of a fucking ass! You're gonna be the fucking king! Hey, stop!

And I think with each previous generation, it's even gnarlier. Like when we're on portraying Milton Berle's generation... Oh yeah. Who the fuck are you, kid? You're barely in the fucking building. You're not even a swinging dick. Call me after he's done crying. They were brutal to each other.

And you feel that when you talk to older comedians or older, older comedians, their unwillingness to give another comedian a compliment or their, uh, how dedicated they are to explaining what they created and what belongs to them. You feel it. Now, Gen Z has gone so far the other way. Everyone is iconic. Yeah. I have a joke with Anna Kendrick,

whenever someone calls us a legend, it's like, uh-oh. Yeah. She texts me like someone just called me a legend. Yeah. That's funny. Sorry. Okay, so that's the, it's condensed and, and, and roughly. Well, for the, because the whole, the point is not to be a documentary or to be informative,

you know, the, the point is to feel something. Yeah. And when I wanted to capture, what does it feel like to put on a show? Yeah. Like in a real way and, and use, um, use a show that we all feel like we know and understand and has been a touchstone for generations so that when they finally say, Live from New York, it's Saturday night, it's exhilarating

is what it actually feels like to be in the room when that happens. Yeah, it's cold. It's physically cold. It's physically cold, but it's scary. It's like a college football game. It's how cold, but it's scary. It's like a college football game. That's how it feels. Like a million percent.

Yeah. And I've never heard someone say that, but that is a thousand percent. You've never heard Michigan, a hundred thousand people. A band sound like that. You're cold. You're chilly for summer. You're inside. You're chilly.

A band is playing and you're like, this is so exciting. And they're going, there's a minute, you know, a minute till we go live, 30 seconds till we go live. And you're in the audience, you have nothing to do but laugh that night. Yeah. And you're nervous as though you're going to fuck up. Yeah.

Yeah, it is like nothing else in the world. Let's get to some blocks. Guys we're all built differently. We're different looks, sizes, different families, different preferences, different experiences, different lives. If we're all so different then why do we tend to turn to the same family, friends and online forums first for doctor or therapist recommendation? Ha, what our friends or forum mates need is likely vastly different from what we need.

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but what do you want your 2025 story to be? In 2025, maybe you're ready for a plot twist or maybe there's a part of your story you've been waiting to revise. Maybe there's a secret thing you've kept in the closet life isn't about resolutions that fade by February It's about picking up the pen and becoming the author of your own life Think of therapy as your editorial partner helping you write new chapters and create the meaningful story. You deserve to live look It almost seems redundant for better help to sponsor this podcast

Look, it almost seems redundant for BetterHelp to sponsor this podcast, because it's so everybody brings up therapy, pretty much every guest has, I bring it up all the time. I'm about to restart therapy, don't worry about why. Look, there's always room to grow. Even you, Neil, even me, guys, even I am a work in progress. I gotta do some rewrites. BetterHelp is fully online,

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Writing and therapy save me. Writing is a metaphor in this context. Also save me. Rewriting my personal history, et cetera, et cetera. Do it yourself. Tell them Neil sent you, better help, slash Neil. Pair one. Let's get to some blocks.

It's a great concept for a show. I know you're deep into this thing. Jimmy Carr. Jimmy Carr. Jimmy Carr's idea. Which one? This show. Oh, really? Yeah.

Unless you were talking about Saturday Night Live. No, it's really funny. There's a joke in the movie that I heard for the first time from Jimmy Carr and He said it at a bat at a roast battle and I went up to him and I said that's a great fucking joke Did you just come up with that and he goes? No, that's what kids just used to say on the playground And then I heard other people say they used to hear it on the playground

And then I felt comfortable putting in in the movie back your mother's teeth Yeah, if you want my comeback you're gonna have to scrape it off the playground. And then I felt comfortable putting it in the movie. Back your mother's teeth? Yeah. If you want my comeback, you're gonna have to scrape it off the back of your mom's teeth. Killer. Yeah, he gave it to Milton Berle. I'll let Jimmy know that it's in the movie. Okay, well we talked about anxiety, which.

Sorry, I know that it's like. No, no, no, but your description of it is interesting, which is you described it as a moody spirit animal. Yeah. What, explain yourself. I feel all my blocks. Like you don't, do you, it sounds like you've made peace with it.

No, absolutely not. I think that's why I said it was a moody spirit animal, because it's still sitting next to me. And I worry that if I were to calm it down, I wouldn't be myself and I wouldn't know how to write anymore. My fear with therapy, my fear with all these things is that if I were to become the best version of myself,

I would run out of things to say and I wouldn't know how to say them. But then maybe you travel. You mean like just like go see Italy? No, this goes to your thing about like, it goes to the thing of like what like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, it goes to the thing of like what your dad was, you know, you were trying to get out of your dad. Oh yeah.

I don't, I'm as you said, your, your obituaries already written, right? The opening line is son of Ghostbusters director. I don't, I think that's second paragraph. I think it's easy. I think it's flip. It starts with Juno and then goes to. They get to it. But my point is like.

I've lost the parenthetical. I used to have a parenthetical. It was Jason, parenthetical son of Ivan parenthetical right man. And they don't do that anymore. Andarenthetical son of Ivan, parenthetical right man, and they don't do that anymore, and that's kind of nice. Yeah, that must that must what a what a it's a win. Yeah. What I'm saying is I don't know if you have to be.

All right. I go back and forth, obviously, between. Are these blocks, are these problems helpful? Or are they a masturbatory waste of time? Or just a thing we're stuck in, like a loop that's not. Are we all just people like, just kind of, we're all living, but we're all just sort of like repeating the same thing over and over again. I mean, look, that's probably what it means to be an artist.

You know, you watched that show, The Idol, Sam Levinson's show. Is this one of your dad's stories? I'm kidding. He's like 24. No, I know he's not. My dad calls, he says, you gotta come over and watch The Idol. He's been there two years. Have you ever heard of Sky of the Weekend? I love that show. Everyone hates that show. I love that show. I love Sam. But I thought it was a really great portrayal of, yeah, artists torture themselves so that other people can be entertained. That's kind of the bit.

And that's what we do to singers, is we do to actors, is we do to comedians. And we want them to experience their trauma at peak so that we can feel something. Yeah. So you see it as kind of a service. Because a part of me is like, watching Saturday Night, watching the Bob Dylan movie, and watching September 5th, I'm a bit like, is this the most important thing

in the world, show business? Like, is it that, I'm in show business, is it that heroic? You can trick yourself into it. Well, hold on, let me ask you this. Do you think any of those, and I know what you're talking about because I've definitely seen that in movies

where it's like, look at these heroes. And definitely about, yeah, I'm not even gonna say it. But with those three films. Complete unknowns about a guy picking a different guitar if you haven't seen it. Go ahead. I don't think that those three films are depicting heroism. I don't think that those three films are depicting heroism.

I don't think that's the purpose of any of those three films. Certainly not what Saturday Night Live is about. I don't think that my movie's about it and these are the guys who saved the world or you know. So what you see it as a guy trying to execute an invisible thing, trying to bring about a thing that exists only as one. Well, I do think that storytelling, directing, invisible thing. Trying to bring about a thing that exists only as one.

Well, I do think that storytelling, directing, being a comedian, creating a joke, when you create something that's never been done before, it's impossible to explain to people until it's already done. So explaining why a joke is funny. It's just impossible. At some point, you just have to do it. And then people get it. But other than that, I thought that there was something special in Saturday Night Live about how these disparate people came together, which is what I experienced when I was there. The amount of talent, but different kind of talent. And particularly on opening night, the sheer range of talent.

The idea that Jim Henson is there and they're gonna put on an Albert Brooks film. Hello, I'm Albert Brooks. Also, you got Michael O'Donoghue. I mean, it's just like these different brilliant minds, like actually all geniuses bouncing off each other making this show. But the Bob Dylan movie isn't about what a great guy he is.

Oh, no, no, no, I don't think it's a great guy. I don't think SNL is either. I think it's about like trying to give birth to like a thing, to a piece of art or a type of art or whatever. I think that, and I, that's worthy of note. Again, it's just a thing I noticed. And the less ambitious I get, and I don't know what movies should be about by the way.

Like meaning you did one about lobbyists and smoking and you did one about being a mob. So again, all right, so I'm gonna go back to my dad's thing about location, honestly. Cause like, thank you for something that's not about tobacco lobbying. Like tobacco lobbying's location. Like we could have made that movie take place anywhere.

It's about choice. It's about like, why the fuck are you telling me what to do? Like when I was 25 years old and I made that movie, all I could think was, do you think I'm an idiot? Like I actually don't know that cigarettes are dangerous. Like, why are you talking to me about this? Why are you telling me about anything? Like, why are you telling me how to live?

That's all that movie was. And then how do you be a parent and simultaneously not believe in a nanny state? And it was just me trying to figure that question out. Yeah. And like Juno's not about teen pregnancy. Like teen pregnancy is a location. It's a movie about what's the moment we grow up.

And apparently Taxi Driver's about LA. I've heard that. I, I, I, yeah. It's about everything separated by windshields and it's like. When you said that, I heard that episode. I was like, oh God, that does actually make sense. Is that true? He wrote it about LA?

So his like nephew told me that, Schrader's nephew. I wonder if he would cop to that or not. It's so iconic. He wrote it here. That actually is iconic. Yeah. But like the Bob Dylan That actually is iconic. Yeah. But like the Bob Dylan movie isn't about Bob Dylan. The Bob Dylan movie is about the desire to disappear.

And you know, he disappears once from wherever he was from, making up all these stories. He moves to New York City, becomes famous. But then in the movie, he needs to disappear again. And we're all pissed at him for wanting to disappear. Having read the book and seen the Scorsese about Bob Dylan, I think that he was a, he's a style thief.

That was like, he's a style thief. He's doing what he got there. It's like, he's literally doing his songs. Right. I was always kinda like, this guy's a bit of a pretend. You know. You're not a Bob Dylan fan? I am. I am a fan I was always kind of like, this guy's a bit of a pretend, you know. You're not a Bob Dylan fan? I am, I am a fan, but I'm still like, he's using stolen material.

He is, I mean he's- He's covering it in his own way, but. Yeah, I'm not sure if I agree with you. I find him highly original, but I, and his music is extraordinarily moving, which I think is kind of the most important part. It's like we're all using the same building blocks, we're all using the same parts

and it's really what you do with them. And what he does with them, I feel, and I felt the first time I heard him. And I'm not even a guy who listens to lyrics. I don't listen to anybody's lyrics, but he moves me. You should listen to lyrics sometimes, they're pretty cool. I know, people say that, but there's kind of an instinct. There's a button you can push on the app.

Do you consider the Dylan movie a musical? I try to get Nikki to do a joke. It's Bob Dylan's greatest hits with women slamming doors in between songs. She was like, I can't do that. It's a funny joke. And also no one's seen it. That's the other thing, I can't do that. It's funny. And also no one's seen it. That's the other thing is no one's.

How many jokes do you have that just sit on a shelf? I thought thousands, but they're not good enough. They're pretty good. And that's just mean. And you have to like, you have to be. Do you have feelings for your unused jokes? Yes, I have. here's what'll happen. I'll write a long bit and then parts of it won't work

and then it will become like a bit and it'll be on Netflix and people will bring it up and whenever they bring it up, I'll think about the parts of it that they fuck me on. Wait. That didn't work. Hold on, does Netflix cut jokes out? No, no, no, it's not they fuck, the audience fucked me on. Wait. That didn't work. Hold on, does Netflix cut jokes out? No, no, no, it's not they fucked, the audience fucked me. The audience fucked me.

Oh, because they didn't go for it. It didn't work, it never worked. How often are you feeling that about the audience? Like, come on, this is better than you're getting ready for. Yeah, you just accept it, but you're like, man, one of these days, it's all gonna work. You make a movie about it, Make a movie about my process. No, but I think that actually is also

a lot of like filmmaking. Yeah, you're mad that one scene. So my fourth film was called Young Adult, and it's probably the film I'm most proud of. Like it's the one like. And Charlize, it's very unlike what classically unlikeable. Right, which makes me love it. I'm sure, yeah.

And remember we had a test screen. It's challenging material. I guess so, but honestly, like it's bad Santa like challenging material. You just got to unlike a person. It's broader. It is broader, that's true. So young adult, we have our test screening

and the test screening, so, you know, we have a test screening where we go out to, you know, a theater, we show an audience, they the test screening, so we have a test screening, we go out to a theater, we show an audience, they fill out cards and they give you a score. And like on Juneau, our score was in the 90s and then on up in the air was in the high 80s and on Young Adult, it was in the 40s. And they have a focus group after

there was a young woman in the focus group and a response and they don't know that the filmmakers are there, we're all hiding in the focus group and her response, and they don't know that the filmmakers are there, we're all hiding in the back, right? And she just goes, I don't know why Jason Reitman wants me to feel this way. And it was like simultaneously like, it's obviously like the biggest win.

It was like, oh, this is awesome. Like the movie is working. Like it's hurting her in the right way. But then I also had to kind of contend with, oh, why aren't they happy? Why aren't they grateful when I hurt them? And I think that's something I'm still trying to figure out as a director to this day.

Cause I love when movies hurt me. Yeah, I know what you mean, but they're probably I remember being like real little and loving dog day afternoon. Yeah, not even knowing sex change. Yeah, I just like the that whatever it was. And I was very young and it's like, why don't I even like it? It's like, I just like shit like that. It's it's perfect.

I mean, still in Sydney, the mat was. Yeah, but it's also just like shit like that. It's it's perfect. I mean silly me. Cindy Lamette was yeah, but it's also you just like you like a mean I like a You know, I like a stab Right. I just have a taste for it. The audience doesn't but I so you just go like yeah, yeah That's not gonna work. Let me ask you this. Do you think that the audience doesn't like it or do you think the audience has been taught for? So long just respond you like sugar like just respond to the things well like doesn't like it? Or do you think the audience has been taught for so long, just respond, you like sugar, like just respond to the things that you like.

Like, do you have to learn to like whiskey? I think, yeah, I think you're probably, that's a good analogy of like sugar versus whiskey. What's a thing that I watched the ghost, I watched the, one of the Ghostbusters recently, one of your Ghostbusters, and it's like just different, it is sugar filmmaking. And do you kind of feel like,

let me just pour the sugar in. I guess so, I mean, so I directed one Ghostbusters film. I directed Ghostbusters Afterlife. And I had a really specific idea going into that, which was, you know, I had always had this idea in my head of a teenage girl finding a proton pack in a barn. And I didn't know why. And eventually, I kind of knew who she was. And I knew what the story was.

And my editor at one point was like, I used to just joke about, yeah, one day I'll make a Ghostbusters film. I was just fucking around. And my editor just said one day, you gotta make that movie, your daughter's 12. Pretty soon she won't care. And I was like, oh.

Yeah, I watched it because I'm involved with a woman who's kind of a four-year-old. Really? Seriously? There you go. And so, I went and I made that movie. What I didn't realize, of course... Fucking. Really, seriously? Yeah. There you go. Yeah. And so I went and I made that movie. What I didn't realize of course. Fucking loves it by the way. I love that.

Has watched it five times. Thank you. In like two weeks. So I'm good because I spent, I got off Amazon and so I got my money's worth. Nice, I'm happy for you. I didn't know it was gonna be the last second to make that movie with my dad. And we made that movie and he died, you know, a year later.

So, uh, it was important as a dad, you know, then my daughter, you know, was 12, 13 years old on the set of that and she loved it. And it was important for me to make that movie with my father. But what I was thinking about at the time was, you know, living vicariously through my father, trying to think about like what he was thinking, what he was feeling

as he made the original. And trying to kind of tie back into that origin story and you know, what is a Ghostbusters movie, you know, tonally, you know, constructionally, design wise, all those things. So I found it to be an interesting challenge. I don't think I was thinking about sugar as much. Like, honestly, I don't think I...

I probably made the least funny Ghostbusters movie, and... But it's got a lot of cranes and gibs and stuff. No, it's actually the opposite. Oh, then I... I watch... I don't want to be a dick. I watch yours. I watch the... You say Frozen Empire, the latest one. Yeah. Yeah.

So, uh, and my writing partner, Ken, directed that one, which is not as much my shooting style. It's Gale's shooting style, all power to him. But like my approach on Afterlife was, I wanna make a movie with only the technology that they had in 84. You know, so we're, and that's not to say we didn't use CG, but like as far as shooting it,

we're shooting it with, we're shooting it the way they would have shot it then. There's almost no, I don't think there's a single crane shot in the entire film. And we're literally trying to make it the way they did in 84. Why, why'd you do that? Why did you decide to do it that way?

I don't know, I guess that's what was interesting to me about it, was sitting down with my DP and my production designer and trying to figure out exactly, all right, what is the DNA of this original film? Was your dad like, you don't gotta do this? 100%. My dad never understood sequels. My dad is like, I don't know why people

want to return to this stuff. When I wrote Afterlife and you meet this girl and she goes out to Oklahoma and she finds a proton pack, and my dad's like, this is great. And then, then tear dogs showed up, which is the same thing as 84. And he's like, why do, why, why goes there? Why do we need to go back?

He's just like, can I just have a new story? Like, he just did not. I think it's one of the reasons the Ghostbusters franchise didn't flourish, like consistently over decades, is because my dad after Ghostbusters is like, I'm gonna go to Twins. Like, I don't care. I don't want to...

He was less involved in the sequels? Uh, well, he made Ghostbusters 2, and then he just, you know... Oh, yeah. And there's nothing for years. Like, he just... It just didn't... Like, this is how much my dad cared about sequels. On the Ghostbusters car in Ghostbusters 2,

it has the Ghostbusters character with the 2. That doesn't make any sense. I asked him years later, I was like, why does the Ghostbusters movie logo for the sequel appear on Ecto-1? Are they aware that they're in a sequel? Is that why they have the Ghostbusters ghost with the two on the side of their physical car?

Yeah, all of their salaries were doubled. Yeah, exactly. My dad just is like, yeah, that was probably a mistake. Like, he just didn't. Yeah, he wasn't paying attention. It just didn't. He just didn't care. Like, he doesn't care about that thing

that people love about Marvel, where every part of that franchise, whether it's a lunchbox or a comic book, is touching on a collective story that if you love Marvel, you would just everything connects. That is the opposite of my father. My father was just like, I just want to go tell him their story. You know what I don't like about jeans, it's knowing what kind of jeans are cool and what aren't. So it's just hard because I don't, I don't follow jeans like that. And then Perfect Jean came on as a sponsor,

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as sort of an indie version. You got to see my Ghostbusters. You might actually like it. I will. Now I will. Yeah. It's beautiful. I mean, it makes people cry. And that. You might actually like it. I will. Now I will, yeah. It's beautiful. I mean, it makes people cry. And that was my favorite comment always, it's like, great.

That's all I wanted to do at the Ghostbusters movie was cry. But it's really lovely. I mean, it's about three generations of a family. It's like a Noah Baumbach Ghostbusters movie. Three generations that don't get along. Oh, great. And that's what it's really about. My grandfather died.

My mom says we're just here to pick through the rubble of his life. Oh, great. And that's what it's really about. My grandfather died. -♪ MENACING MUSIC PLAYING ON TV PLAYS ON TV PLAYS ON TV My mom says we're just here to pick through the rubble of his life. I do feel like people always presumed that I was gonna do studio films, studio comedy, um... You know, from the moment I said I wanted to be a director. And that's not why I became a director, because I started seeing Sundance films.

And that's what turned me on. And I believe that those are the kinds of films I make. And I think it's tricky because I am my father's son. I like comedy, which also makes people think, oh, okay, I guess you just want to do broad things. And I'm not really interested in that. The thing I was saying about showbiz changing, do you find it harder to make small movies?

It's a great question. And, you know, it's not that it's harder to make smaller films. You can make smaller films as well as you could 20 years ago. It's where people watch them. And that's what's interesting is... Are you... Do you care? Oh, I bought a movie theater last year. Like, yeah, I care. I believe in people seeing movies in movie theaters

and not because the screen is big or the sound is good. I think it's actually important for people to like cry together and laugh together collectively. Like you actually put randos together who would otherwise never talk to each other, who are culturally diverse, who are actually socioeconomically diverse and you laugh at the same shit.

It's like, you're like, hey, you're not so different. You laugh at the same stupid shit. You cry at the same stupid things. Like we're all human and that's actually important. Yeah. And you think it's like fortifying. Yeah. And, and-

It's church. It's all the stuff. Did you watch that documentary? It's a much better church. Join or Die. It's about like, it's on Netflix. It's about, it's the guy who wrote Bowling Alone. He's basically saying like, join a club and you will live longer. Ha, I buy that. Like statistically. Yeah, that's great. And it sounds like what you're

talking about. It's like, do you find yourself going? Is the theater in LA? Yeah, I put together a group of 30 directors to buy the man village in West. Oh, right, right, right. The big one of the tower and everything. Yeah. So I saw that was going for sale and I put down an offer, not even knowing how I was going to make this work, and just started asking directors to join me.

And I got 30 directors, 30 of the best living directors to join me. And it's... Who was 31? I'm kidding. I like how it's about status. It's like, I need money, but not you. Maybe. No, although there was kind of a notion of like, are you dedicated to making movies? And that's a tricky thing,

because I think a lot of people are like, you know, fuck it, I'll just make television. Have that's a tricky thing, because I think there's a lot of people that are like, you know, fuck it, I'll just make television. Have you made a direct to, I mean, even- I haven't made anything yet for streaming and I'm not against it. I would tell, look, here's the thing. So I just made the Saturday Night movie, right? And it's good.

It's a good fucking movie. Like I'm really proud of it. Everyone who made it is proud of it. Anyone who sees it has a great time with it. It's a good movie. It made nothing. Like, it came out into theaters and I thought, you say, oh, it's a franchise movie.

Everybody knows Saturday Night Live. Every generation has been touched by Saturday Night Live. Nobody saw it. If we had come out on Netflix Day One... Yeah. ...there'd be a hundred million people who saw that movie. I mean, that's an exaggeration, but there'd be 10 million people who saw that movie.

Yeah. You know, at least. At least, yeah. And it's comedy is connected to SNL. Also it's got like 20 known actors in it. Yep. So, do I want that? Like, do I want my film to exist?

Yeah, do you see like that's the way the wind's blowing? Well, I mean, that is the way the wind is blowing. The only question is, is it worth fighting that? And I don't know the answer to that. I don't know if I'm just a tool sitting here going, I really want my movies to come out in movies. I know the answer. It's not worth fighting.

Come to Netflix. I mean, thank you for coming. I just wanted to let you know. Is that the whole purpose of today? Yeah This isn't even rolling I mean, but honestly you get away from it, but but I I'm there should be we do need You know shared experiences and you say that we do we we do we human beings need shared experiences and they're it's I think we all I realize it and I'm still like shut the door like

I'm still right prone to being like I couldn't tell you the last time I went to a movie actually I couldn't to go you have a kid right now? Yeah, he's too young to go to the theater. Got it, and that, look, that definitely changes things. Yeah. Do you think if you were not a parent right now, you would go to the movies? No. Tell me why.

It's just too inconvenient for what I, I mean, but I. I wonder if that's true. If you think about all the other things that you do in your life. It's all pretty aimed at convenience. And, but there are certain things that I do that like I will do like- Yeah, what do you go out for?

Well, I will, there was a, I read in a Martin Amis author, he wrote a book in the nineties and he just had a sentence or two about that great art comes from inconvenience. And he's like, I'm, I, he, and the idea was like before he, before Beethoven wrote like the fifth, he, he lugged a, um, a vacuum across London. And he was just so inconvenient. He like his body gave him the fifth sempit, you know what I mean?

Just like if you do something awful, you're, you, it will be catalyzed into something. Yeah. So I'm actually. Tracy let's say, great writing comes from boredom. Yeah. You need to be bored to be a good writer. Yeah.

So I don't mind doing stuff like drudgery, but I don't like doing drudgery in the name of what's supposed to be entertainment. I hate going to concerts and waiting for them to start. Got it. There's just stuff where I'm like, let's fucking go. And whatever I'm supposed to be getting. Well, the nice thing about a movie is it starts promptly.

You don't, they're not just... They're not fucking with you. Well, but trailers... Yeah, but you know how long the trailers are commercials. You can get there knowing when it's gonna start. Yeah, you're right. But then you feel like maybe you miss them. Yeah, I don't see it as... I couldn't even tell you the last time I went to...

Maybe Oppenheimer? Okay. Why'd you go see Oppenheimer in the theaters? Because it seemed like it was shot, it was meant for that. It seemed like, all right, this guy went out of his way. Yeah, I know. I think that's part of it. And look, first of all, like, I love Chris. I admire Chris. Chris is one of the investors.

He's one of the investors. One of the investors in the movie theater. And made one of the best movies, you know, of the last, you know, I don't know how many decades. Memento. You're talking about Memento. Memento is amazing. Yeah, it's incredible. But because of that argument, it's all about picture and sound.

You went to see Oppenheimer, maybe you saw it in 70mm, and that was the reason that you went out. But is that as important as, I don't even know, I mean, seeing the original Ghostbusters, like what that would have been like to see with an audience. Oh, then it was so, I remember seeing, I think Ghostbusters, I think one I saw in the theater. Yeah.

And it was, I remember it. It's electric, you know. And then, but you didn't walk out and go, I needed to see that in the theater, cause you know, the, the, the, I didn't know, the, Laszlo Kovacs in photography and like, yeah, exactly.

1982 or something or whatever it was. Yeah, exactly, like you know, the... I didn't know that... The Laszlo Kovacs cinematography and like, you know, like exactly. 1982 or something or whatever year it was. Yeah, exactly. Like you just, what made it important is the collective experience you had with that audience. Yes. It was electric. It was like watching Eddie Murphy's Delirious, like whatever, it was just like, and...

Yeah. And those movies are still happening. And that is the experience I think people should still be happening. Well, you gotta get your money back one way or the other. I'm not gonna make money on this theater. That's not the... Oh, you mean on making movies. Well, no, I'm talking about the theater, but yeah. Okay, so shame. We never even finished Shame.

Yeah. What... So you see it as a necessary evil? I don't know about that. I think it's just an evil, you know? I really love, you know that guy John Ronson, that Welsh writer, like, I love all the stuff that he's doing on Shame. I think it's become actually one of the most dangerous things around,

and it prevents us from being ourselves, and I'm so guilty of that, and I feel like that is- Oh, okay, yeah, you wrote that. What do you, who, you wrote that. Who would you be if not for shame? I don't know, I just know how often every day I'm thinking about how my thoughts, how my feelings, how they come across, what am I allowed to write?

I wonder how much more free a writer I would be and director if I had zero shame. And if I just said, fuck it, I'm gonna write and direct what I feel. And you've never even taken that approach? I take, I think I take glances at it. I think certainly, like up in the air is dealing with a little bit of shame.

Like up in the air is me going, is life meant to be lived with somebody? Like why is that prescribed? I think about up in the air, I think about the idea of it. I think about that, that's what I mean by like, what's the, what is the purpose? He's an ambitious guy, maybe he's avoidant.

Or he's definitely avoidant. He's channeling in an ambition. Is he your dad? Is he you? Is he me? Is he like, is he Lauren? Meaning, I don't, it doesn't really have to do with, I guess it has to do with shame in some ways, which is like, is that not the right way to live? Definitely not.

Well, that's kind of the point is that I think I'm using it as an opportunity to explore a philosophy that I might just believe in. And at the time I definitely was like, you know. And by the way, I'm writing at the time where I am married and the parent of a young child. And I'm sitting there writing a movie about maybe life is meant to be lived alone.

And you can just kind of seamlessly move through the universe. Everything that he was saying is like, why do we collect these miles? Why do we do any of this stuff? Like, why are you close to your family? What is this? What do you, you know, what's the point?

And just, we're sharks. We are not swans. We're sharks. So shame for feeling that genuinely. When I know everyone around me is like, no, the whole point is like family and connection and all this stuff and the people that you care about and like

What if you don't believe that or what do you have an inkling that may not be true? and and I probably have 20 of those and I Get it seems like Thank you for smoking has some moments of that. Oh, yeah, absolutely pretty dark notions How on earth would big tobacco profit off of the loss of this young man? It's in our best interest to keep Robin alive and smoking and even herb sergeant talking to Chevy and Saturday night is like You've been around the block where am I going from here the American people are gonna fall in love with you

You've been around the block. Where am I going from here? The American people are gonna fall in love with you. You'll be obscenely overpaid for pratfalls and cute jokes. You'll waste away most of your life with purchased company. And then eventually you'll self-medicate with booze and hookers and heroin. I imagine you'll die alone, falling out of a hotel room window in Stockholm. Jesus. I can't wait. Ha ha ha.

It's a little rough. I don't think I was exploring anything deeply internal on Saturday Night Live as much as I was trying to look into the process of creation. Yeah, no, but I'm talking about you do, there is a moment of like, Jason, take it away. Do your solo. there is a moment of like, what's your life, Jason, take it away. Do your solo, do your cynical solo. Yeah, you're right.

That's a very easy voice for me to. And that's a voice that you're a little ashamed of. I'm not sure, maybe it relates to stand up comedy. Maybe it's, this is the voice of what I feel. Well, that's what I mean, like the stuff, this is a story I may have told on here before. Please. Louis Anderson comedian, offstage a dark guy.

I live in his former house. Great, offstage dark guy, onstage sunny, silly. One of his friends goes, hey, why don't you, every once in a while, why don't you show him the knife? Show him the knife a little bit. Take the knife out, show him how cutting and dark you are. And Louis is like, yeah, yeah, I do have this joke. It's pretty dark. I'll try it. And he does the

joke. It doesn't do well because people don't want to hear from him. And he gets off stage and he goes, I think people sense the knife. Just like, I don't have to shove fucking stab them. I think with you, I know you got a knife. And that's, and maybe it's the whiskey sugar ratio again, but it's like, I, I, they know I have a knife. My face lets them know my eyes let them know. I don't need to go to the lyrics. Don't also have to be knife, knife, knife, knife, knife. The tone is knife.

So I think you're in the same boat where it's like, you're, you're, you're, you have some, some darkness that's like present. I guess that then, then then so my next question is why is that a knife? Why is that considered darkness? So you believe something that is antithetical to what most people say. Maybe not even think. They may all agree but they're afraid to say it. But why is that darkness? Why is that a knife? Because it's anti-social. It's not pro-humanist. If you're like, I'd rather be on the road all the time. Again, maybe it's...

And I know, I'm the same guy who was like, the collective experience of the whole shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um... And I gotta make this one movie before my daughter ages out of it. Um... I have a heart.

I know, that's what I mean. Like, you do have a heart. And I think the shit that works well is heart that's got some heart, but then there's a little, like, rug pull. Well, that's the conflict, right? I mean, and I suppose that is what I'm always making movies about, is those two sides of my personality. I mean, that's thank you for smoking. It is, you know, you have these feelings,

you're a tobacco lobbyist, it's a perfectly, it's a job like, and it's a much harder job than working at the Red Cross, you know. Was there ever an ending for Up in the Air where George was happy? Well, I mean, it's kind of wonderful that you just said that because the whole point of the ending of the up in the air is that it is a mirror to the audience.

Half the audience watches that movie. It's a war shack. I don't remember the exact ending. It's sort of like- Last, okay, so earlier in the movie, Anna Kendrick says, you know, if I had your kind of miles, I would just look up at a big border destinations. I'd pick a place and go. And, you know, he goes to Vera's house.

There's the big reveal. He goes to the airport, he's sitting there and he looks up at this big board of destination and we cut the clouds. Now, I don't know, for half the audience, he's about to go move someplace great, meet a gal, settle down. And then for you.

Right, he's going to Denver. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's going to Denver for the rest of his life. And that's it. I mean, but I also love movies that don't give you the landing, you know, that, that make you take it wherever you're going to take it. Right. Well, that's, I think that's called quality. I agree. Although it's so funny. I remember, um, God, I remember-

But I'm sure you've done, have you ever changed an ending to make it sunnier or changed? Didn't you put, didn't you do reshoots on up in the air of people testifying about losing their jobs? No, that wasn't reshoots. We did that early. So, um, so I wrote this movie and my father reads a script up in the air. The first thing he ever says is, you know, a movie needs a plot. Okay. That was his first review. Yeah. And he was tough. He made me a much better writer.

We're getting ready to shoot and he goes, you know, one of the things that I don't think you're nailing right now is what's happening in this country. It was 2009, huge economic downturn. We're shooting in Detroit and St. Louis. And he goes, you got to capture that in a real way. Louis. And, uh, he goes, you got to capture that in a real way. And I don't think you're doing that right now. I think the firing scenes are kind of fake.

So I went back and I read the script, and he was right. Like, it just didn't capture it. And Detroit and St. Louis had the highest amount of job loss in the entire country. And we just put out an ad saying we were making a documentary about job loss, and we wanted to interview people who had, you know, been furloughed and lost their jobs. And they would come in, and we just put out an ad saying we were making a documentary about job loss and we wanted to interview people who had been furloughed and lost their jobs.

And they would come in and we'd say, all right, we want to do a role play with you. We'd interview them and they were like, all right, we're gonna fire you. And then on camera we'd love you to say, whatever you said or whatever you wish you said, you can do whatever you want. And it wasn't George,

because they would have just freaked out. We had a producer do it. And they, and we had him read this HR document. And the moment the HR language came out, their eyes just, they just clicked in, and they lost it. And people like cried, they got angry, they yelled shit. I mean, and said the kind of things that as a writer, you go, I could have never come up with that.

Even me. Even me. Mr. Knife. Even me. Mr. Knife. It was a guy who said, how you sleep at night man? Huh? How's your family? They sleeping well at night?

Electricity still on? Heat still on? Refrigerator full of food? Gas tank full of gas? Going Chuck E. Cheese this weekend or something, not me. I was like, I never said that, that's good. Yeah. That's really good. And so those, we edited those into the movie,

but we shot that, that was the first day of shooting. Right, but I guess what I'm saying is you have all this about tinkering, right? All the, in terms of like the sugar whiskey ratio. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When, I mean, I think you can get it right and it could still not be a successful movie. Yeah, so the answer to your question is,

the question I'm always asking myself is, do I have the courage to be ruthless to the end of the movie? And with young adult, it's ruthless to the end of the movie. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, it is like, whoo. Yeah. You're like, well, I. Yeah, young adult, she looks, first of all,

she tells Patton Oswalt's sister, you're good here, stay. And then she looks at the broken front of her car and she's basically looking at a mirror of her kind of broken soul. and then she rides off into the sunset to go back to exactly who she was and she's reading the voiceover from her book which makes it sound like she's like some crazy success when you know with the apartment she's returning to and the life she's returning to. As she boarded the train for Cambridge, she took one last look at her small town and blew it a kiss

Thinking life here I come Yeah, I really probably yeah, it's I that the tension you have with the shame is like I Think that's like that's it. Yeah, I think that's like, that's it. Yeah. I think that's like, what am I allowed? I try to approach Santa like that, like, what am I not supposed to say? What's everybody saying? Do you struggle with that? Yeah. Yes. That's so weird from the very start.

I mean, because my whole perception of you is overwhelming confidence. The ability to say anything. And I know, look, part of that is genetic. Part of that is just like literally DNA. Like I saw the special. Like I know that like a lot of the things where your, things are coming out of your mouth and your face is doing one thing.

And as a result, people are interpreting it like a different way. And it's allowed you to develop as a comedian. Like I get the whole thing, but still I still look at you and go, really are you thinking about shame? Because it feels like you can say anything to anyone, particularly in this world where comedians

are now terrified to say anything. It's, I'm lucky that I'm grandfathered in to like, he does, like he doesn't. But it's the same thing of like, it's the Joe from Spinal Tap. But what exactly do you find offensive? Ian, you put a greased naked woman on all fours with a dog collar around her neck and a leash

and a man's arm extended out up to here, holding onto the leash and pushing a black glove in her face to sniff it. Well, you should have seen the cover they wanted to do. Wasn't a glove. Believe me. Like you, the first draft is like so not funny. Right.

And it's so scathing and angry. And then I, then I like find it, find like, Oh, you guys like, okay. All right. So is your first thought scathing and angry and then it finds its way to be funny Yes, and then you make it like uh It's so funny and also like you don't know how it like you wouldn't know what the inspiration was based on where it ends up You wouldn't you'd be like oh, that's just a silly. No. It's like no cuz I hated Barbie so fucking much Or whatever that whatever that but yeah you and you just have to make it like

Palatable are you interested in the DNA of things or do you like I don't care as long as it's whatever however Yeah, of course. I'm very inching the DNA but but At a certain point it doesn't matter. It's like, as long as it gets there, it's like, I can't, I will always remember and hold it against them a little bit that they didn't support me in my absolute unfunny darkest hour. Once you've nailed it, once you cracked it,

you've done it three times, you're like, this is the way it works. Do you ever go back and be like, I gotta try that original way one more time just to see. It's another way to make it more palatable is to preface the whole thing with like, Chris Rock just did it beautifully on Sorry I Live about the Luigi Mangione thing.

I feel awful for the family. I don't have real condolences for, you know, the healthcare CEO. I mean, this is a real person, you know? But you also gotta go, you know, sometimes drug dealers get shot. Twenty five years ago, Chris would not have done the preamble. But now he know just like the way society is now. My heart goes, you have to do the preamble. So it's like it's a bit it's sugar.

And now it also just feels also like a good set. Now you're just also building tension. Oh, now you're going like, don't get me wrong. Yeah, I would never. Yeah,'re just also building tension. Oh, now you're going like, don't get me wrong. Yeah. I would never. Yeah. But that's what your. No, it's like Jesselneck. Like you're just now you're just stoking the fire, stoking the fire.

Yeah. And they were just like, they're like, they come for it. Yeah. And with Chris or somebody else, they come for it. And it's they know he's just like protecting himself. Right. With the setup. Which I think you might consider it disappointing that it doesn't end up in the movie or but like you you're I think shame is okay as a you know like I'm sure you've like thought about the origin of shame and, like, and gossip within a tribe.

Like, it sort of regulates, it's way to regulate the tribe when not everyone's there. Oh, yeah. And it's not that I'm not aware of, like, how important shame has been culturally over the last, like, ten years. You just find that it's eating. You think it's over. You think social media and stuff has sort of supercharged it? No, I'm not even talking about that.

I'm not even talking about like, I get the value and the importance and how it's been used as a tool and like, I get it. I think John Ronson makes really interesting points about shame as well. I'm talking really internally. I'm just talking about my own personal shit. Has it's been useful or it's it's outlived

It's it's it's overgrown its usefulness. Um, I Am trying to let go of certain things I probably don't need to use anymore and it's a look even this really this conversation is really useful in that it is A reminder of the struggle is the movie Yeah, you need to be burning to answer the question to make the movie and if you've already answered the question, there is the movie. Yeah. You need to be burning to answer the question to make the movie. And if you've already answered the question, there is no movie.

Yeah. You're welcome. That's how we come here, right? Well, Jason, we're all rooting for you. Nobody is rooting for you. See you later.