Blocks w/ Neal Brennan - Josh Groban

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

Neal Brennan interviews Josh Groban (multi-platinum musician) about the things that make him feel lonely, isolated, and like something's wrong - and how he is persevering despite these blocks.  ---------------------------------------------------------- 00:00 Intro 2:07 Getting discovered 6:34 Early singing career  15:21 Singing with Celine Dion at the Grammys 20:11 Reaction to success 21:37 Insecurity 34:07 TV Special 35:04 You Raise Me Up 38:55 Loneliness from  Being Uncategorizable  46:56 Building Walls 53:51 Sponsor: Tushy 55:44 Sponsor: Square 57:21 The Show Must Go On  1:00:56 Work Life Balance  1:02:57 Stage Fright 1:09:55 Hobbies 1:10:30 Talented Introvert 1:14:11 Depression 1:15:55 Self-Acceptance ---------------------------------------------------------- Follow Neal Brennan: https://www.instagram.com/nealbrennan https://twitter.com/nealbrennan https://www.tiktok.com/@mrnealbrennan Watch Neal Brennan: Crazy Good on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81728557 Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234 Theme music by Electric Guest (unreleased). Edited by Will Hagle ([e-mail])  Sponsors: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @shop.mando and get $5 off off your Starter Pack (that’s over 40% off) with promo code [NEAL] at https://www.shopmando.com! #mandopod This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://www.betterhelp.com/neal and get on your way to being your best self. Over 2 Million Butts Love TUSHY. Get 10% off TUSHY with the code [NEAL] at https://www.hellotushy.com/NEAL Get up to $200 off Square hardware when you sign up at https://www.square.com/go/NEAL! #squarepod Sponsor Blocks: https://public.liveread.io/media-kit/blocks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, before you watch this thing, hit subscribe, would ya? Quit it with the, what is it? Hold on, let me look it up. This is gonna be worth it. Quit it with the avoidant attachment style. Just hit it. Don't you want me to feel good? Subscribe.

I'm waiting for my glasses to get normal so I don't look like a mafia informant. Are they foggy? No, they're tinted or whatever. You have to wait for them to untint? I guess I just have to wait. Although it could be fun for the intro. Let's use it.

Hi guys, it's me, Neil. If you're watching this, my glasses have the tint from being outside. They look good. Less and less like a mob informant. I don't have that technology. Well, stick with me. It's actually like way more. It's so much more expensive to get the tint.

Of course it is. And yet you're still waiting on the glasses to give you what you need. Thank you. My guest today is Josh Groban, everybody, and I don't know how to introduce him exactly, so what intro have you heard of you that you enjoyed? That I've enjoyed? Or that you think is apt? Oh, I don't know.

Usually they just kind of, somebody just kind of says the stat, gives you the bullet points of just. Have you Grammys? Lots of nominations. Great. Never won anything. No problem. But still here.

I don't know, I guess I sing sing I've been I've been in music for 25 years I've done a bit of acting. I've done some theater. I'm very proud of my foundation I do some arts education you you have a you also didn't you write you I do some writing as well Yeah, I like to write music as well. Yeah, I've never written any like TV or theater or anything like that But oh you have I love to write songs. Okay, so you're Josh Groban. You've sold 25 million records according to the internet. I have, yes. Yes, give or take.

But yeah, I've been very, very fortunate, and my life and career, you know, it's like, I look back on, because we just celebrated the 25th anniversary of my first album, and I think about, A, how quickly things just fly. It's unbelievable. And also just kind of all the weird wacky adventures and you're one of the few people that got discovered yeah you know I mean like back in like it I was

singing and then someone from Hollywood came right I mean it's like it's it's kind of like you know being a child of the 80s and then seeing the invention of the internet and then seeing now we're going into quantum. Being in the music business in 1999, 2000, and seeing how it's... Can you give people... Tell people the short version of the story. Sure, yeah. Just so I don't want to bore you with it. Well, no, not at all, but it was during a time

where there were very few ways to get yourself out there. Now there are a million ways to share what you do online. I mean, it was so old school. I was working with a voice teacher who had a few different students. I was a kid, I was just taking voice lessons in high school. And David Foster, Grammy, 16-time Grammy-winning, probably more now, called him, said,

hey, I'm in a clinch, I need one of your students to sing for free the thing that I'm doing. It was the governor of California's Inauguration Song. And you're singing what it was like kind of operatic, classical? It was from Phantom of the Opera. It was a musical theater song.

And at that point, I was doing theater in school. So I was working on those songs just for college auditions and things like that. So Seth, this voice coach that I was working with, who was a neighbor of ours, sent David like five or six tapes of students and he picked mine. And next thing I knew, I was flying out to Sacramento.

Where were you? Where was I? I was living in LA. and singing. Where were you? Where was I? Just, I was living in LA. Okay, so you flipped Sacramento for the thing. From LA, yeah, yeah. I grew up here in LA, but not in like a showbiz family or anything. I was just, I was like a boy scout

who got to go to his house for a voice lesson with a bunch of other kids, and he was like, oh, you've got something special if you ever want discounted lessons, because he was this big star vocal coach. I'd be happy. You were literally a Boy Scout? I was.

So the first time I ever sang for Seth Riggs, he's a big, big vocal coach to the stars. And I drive up and Stevie Wonder was there, and Janet Jackson was walking out, and worked with a lot of incredible people. Any white people? I'm kidding. I was the first.

But- Did the fact that you saw Stevie Wonder and Janet Jackson go into a vocal coach, did that make it more like, well, you're never done? A little bit. Yeah. I mean, the nice thing about when I would meet legends at that age, the ones that I grew up loving people like Tony Bennett, too, when I first met him, he would talk to me about who's your trainer?

You know, who's your vocal trainer? Who do you like to listen to? What kind of scales do you do? He would ask me, he was asking me, like he wanted to have vocal, like what's your vocal workout? Like, what do you like to sing to? And this was when he was like 75 when I first met him.

And, you know, I'm looking at this guy and I'm thinking like, this is one of the guys of all time that I would look up to and he's talking to me as if We're just in the same room about to do vocal lessons. Like he's he's still a student Yeah, and and he was up until the day he passed away. He was murdered by his coach Did you think you were good at that point? Well, so I was I was one of those kids that like locked the door, went into my room and just sang along with things without anybody knowing. I wouldn't sing for my parents,

I wouldn't sing for certainly not in public, not in school or anything like that. And so- Could they hear it through the walls? Yeah, probably. But my parents were great in that they like, they let me just do my thing. Like we had a piano in the house

and they would just let me play. They would pretend they weren't listening, which was important for me because I felt so shy about it that I think if I thought that they were going, oh, John, yeah, I think I would have shut it down. And this was not, you were doing this for, as a form of self-expression, as a form of entertaining yourself, you weren't trying to, you weren't ambitious, you weren't like, I'm going to do this and I'm going to show them, no, I did not have stars in my eyes for the industry. I did not think that, certainly not as like a recording artist.

I loved theater. I was a kid that got to, I was lucky enough to sit and watch theater. And so I wanted to tell those stories. My ambitions were that I wanted to be, you know, an actor in theater. And I wanted to make people feel the way I felt when I saw great theater.

And musical theater. And musical wanted to make people feel the way I felt when I saw Great Theater. And musical theater. And musical theater, yeah. Mostly. Exactly, so, you know, long story short, I was, you know, it started as a Boy Scout, and then I went to LA County High School for the Arts, and while I was there. You auditioned to get in there?

I auditioned to get in there. They took me in as an actor, yeah. Did you see other people's auditions? I guess I'm just trying to get a sense of like, did you ever think like, I'm looking good at this. Oh no, I never. I'm weirdly good at this. Or was it a feel?

The first time I ever felt that way was senior year of high school at Loxa. And I was cast in my first lead role in a musical. And that was the first time I really felt, you know, any sense of confidence or that my voice, musically and otherwise, was worth listening to. And I was, it was late, it was late.

I was, I felt this big until about midway through my senior year. And then I thought, you know what, I maybe have something, there's maybe something here. And then that was when I auditioned for Carnegie Mellon and got in there. Were you jealous of the people that seemed like they were doing better or was it?

Always, of course. You know, I joke now that you don't wanna like peak in junior high school, but there were always those kids that just had it going on. They're just during that summer between sixth grade and seventh grade, they grew five feet and had confidence for days and they were really good at something

that was popular to be good at. And at a performing arts high school. And also, but I was at a different school at that point. So I went to another school called Windward, another LA school, and just had not a great time. My grades weren't great. I just, I felt just like I was kind of trapped on the inside and just couldn't express myself. And it was the teacher at that school

that put me in the choir. And, you know, the common denominator between all these things of that and then singing for Seth and then David Foster saying, hey, who have you got? It really was that having somebody, a teacher in some way or another, hearing me in the back, because it was in a choir when I was singing for Seth the first time too, saying,

hey, there's something there, and he seems shy but talented, and I'm gonna put him in the front so he has no choice but to share what he has. And so it was the opposite of being super ambitious. I was kind of dragged kicking and screaming into the spotlight. But then, yeah.

Okay, but you're wanting to be in the show. Is that a form of ambition? Or do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think that what I wanted to be was just a part of it. I didn't necessarily have my sights set on being a star in that world. I just loved it. I loved the community of it. I loved being part of it so much.

My first, you know, many musicals that I did, I was in the chorus, and I was super happy. I just loved, like, supporting it and blending with other voices. You have to kind of fake it till you make it confidence-wise when you start doing solo stuff. And I'm a total introvert when I'm not onstage. So figuring out what that muscle was,

that okay, the spotlight's on, there's a certain kind of like it thing you have to turn on in order to earn being in that spot. It kind of happened by accident. It was a moment in, it was a moment in junior high while I was at Windward when I got put into a cabaret performance and the teacher said I'm gonna give you a solo and that was my

first time singing for anybody my parents came there's first time they ever heard me and the audience was it had the teacher heard you almost like yeah it was the teacher who said and I and I bring him out his name is Richard Baron I bring him out every concert I have in LA I say please come he's in the car right now he's waiting for me the cars warm he keeps a warm for me. The car's warm. He keeps it warm for me. He's a chauffeur. Yeah, he's crazy on life. He's the joker maker. Yeah, he's a great guy.

And obviously, those teachers are on the front line. And I always say, if you had one of those teachers, make sure they know when you're an adult. Yeah. Like, find them, because they go through so many kids that they generally, a lot of times, don't know if that one moment changed the course of their life. I had a pianist that was playing for me at Capitol Records, a studio pianist that

was just playing his ass off and we were doing this big orchestral number and I saw the name on the thing and it said Robert Theis. I'm like, Rob Theis. There's a guy named Rob Theis who taught me piano when I was like 10 years old and I like chased him down in the parking Lot I was like Rob. He's like, yeah, it's like my Josh. He's like, yeah, I know. Thanks for the gig I was happy to play in the song great song Yeah, like no you you you gave me lessons in Hancock Park Like you gave me lessons as a kid and he goes that was you he had no, you know

He didn't even know he had no idea. He just thought of some Joshy. Yeah Or something it was something he wasie. Yeah, or something. It was something he was doing to make money when he was in college. So, you know, and then he went off to win like the Tchaikovsky competition. It became like a famous pianist. So, you know, it's always important to reach back

and find those people that turned on that light bulb. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so then you sing for, you sing at this Gray Davis, it sounds like ancient history. It was ancient history, Gray Davis was nominated. A guy named Gray Davis was the governor of California and you sang it as an inauguration.

In 1998 or something like that. You sang it as inauguration. I did. At David Foster's behest. That's right, me and Coolio. I've heard David Foster tell somebody about you, you gotta hear this kid sing,, you gotta hear this kid sing, or you gotta hear this kid,

he sings like he's got a three foot dick. I'll never forget it. Somebody said. That's the first time hearing that. Yes, that's what I, apparently he said that to Andre Agassi. Don't ask me why I know that. I don't know why I know that.

Anyhow. So then you're doing the three foot, and it's only two and a half feet. He was, I mean like, you know, I did have a voice that was like, you know, way bigger than I was. Like I was a scrawny little kid, and I think the gimmick for him then was like that

You know this hip squeak high school kid is coming out and then there's there was this booming baritone Singing voice that came out and everybody just kind of went what what did you think of it? I? I was at that point like Super nervous, but I was also starting to realize like this was this thing that I could do I didn't necessarily think anything would come of it But I was really happy for the opportunity and leaned into it. Of course, if somebody like David said,

you've got this, you've got this, I sang like my life depended on it back then. What's interesting is it's valuable now. Would it have been more valuable in the 1600s? The voice, that voice? Oh yeah, I would have been like the biggest pop star of the day, they wouldn't have known what to do with me. Do you think about that?

Because I think about that all the time. It's my Roman Empire, yeah. I think about, well not even, I don't even need to go back to the 1600s, I just think about like what if I had been in like the 1930s, you know? And where like that style of singing was like the top 40 of the day. Yeah. You know, I could have're like that style of singing was like the top 40 of the day

Yeah, you know, I I could have I could have done a mean mind it my ding-a-ling, you know I could have done like every remix of that imaginable Yeah, I mean especially with the three-foot dick Why don't you go with me to the ice cream shop, yeah done done License to print money. Yeah, this 2025, I'm a nerd. Well, no, it isn't, we're gonna get to your blocks in a second, but I just wanna contextualize. Like Uncle Rico with the time,

if I had a time machine, I'd go back to 1930, let me tell you what. Yeah, pretty much. Coach would have put me in fourth quarter, we'd have been state champions, no doubt. So you didn't think, you thought like, this is cool, but like it's 1998, 1992, 2000. But I had no, and I still don't,

I had no idea what cool was at that point, because to me, singing a song from the Phantom of the Opera for me when I was 16 years old, was what I was training to do. Like I wanted to do theater. So if this guy who discovered Whitney Houston says, hey, I need you to sing this song from Phantom at this event. I didn't really think much further than that.

I was like, oh, well, this is what I want to do for a living. I'm going to sing this song to the best of my ability. And hopefully one day I might be able to play that role in theater one day. And just be, it could have been, it could be in New York. It could be anywhere. And you would just have been happy to work in theater. 100%.

I really, I was so blissfully ignorant as to what was actually happening, because if I had set my sights on, I have to meet a David Foster, and I need to use any time I get that chance to get that opportunity, I would have fucked up the opportunity entirely because I was so lost in this little thing of like, okay, I'm in theater.

I love theater. I love this song. This guy who is not in my world and never, never will be, but is a legend. He's like me to sing the song at this event. And I viewed it as like a fun free gig where it's like, oh my God, there's a lot of people here, but I'm going to sing this song. And I've rehearsed it. And I was just so in this little tiny warped lens of like, I will do, there's a lot of people here, but I'm gonna sing this song. And I've rehearsed it, and I was just so

in this little tiny warped lens of like, I will do this, and then I will go back to my classes. And I did not know at the time that he had bigger sights, or that he was actually talking to other people in this music circle saying like, hey, this guy. Three of these guys are gonna freak me out. I started to know that when he started to keep calling me and asking me to sing at other events and sing,

and then he's had me sing this song called The Prayer with Celine Dion at this Grammy rehearsal when I was 17 the next year. And that was cool. I mean, that was like the biggest room I'd ever been in in my life. But even then, I thought to myself, well, what an incredible experience.

I just sang with the great Celine Dion at the Grammy rehearsal. I just sang with the great Celine Dion at the Grammy rehearsal Well back to class I Still wasn't thinking of it in terms of like who I got to work this you all right. Well. I have two questions singing with somebody like Celine Dion is it As somebody who sings well are you like god damn with somebody like Celine Dion, is it, as somebody who sings well, are you like, God damn, is it like a different thing? It's like, oh.

Listening to that kind of instrument next to you? Oh, it's overwhelming to me now after 25 years, let alone at 17, I mean, and I had, of course everybody knew her then as well as being the legend that she is. And so, um, so, yeah, but the, but I was also so focused, and I knew that I had a really difficult song to sing, and so the biggest thing in my mind was

I didn't want to mess up next to Celine Dion, not so much like I'm gonna take this in and enjoy it. There's no enjoyment at that point in your, in your... in that you're so nervous, you just can't believe you're in this room, you're overwhelmed. And so the biggest thing that stuck out to me then more than her voice, which I knew would be incredible, but also like you're on the Grammy stage,

it's all kind of weird monitors. I couldn't hear it. She's boomy, I'm boomy, it's a soup up there. And so the lights on you and if you're not used to what a spotlight feels like, and you're a kid from high school, you are just in a weird, where it's like, I'm getting some soupy version of Celine's voice over here,

and I guess I'm kinda coming out of this monitor, but I'm gonna do my best. She could see that I was in the white room, that I was like, this kid is very talented, but obviously. This kid just smoked five MEO DMT, and he's in the white room, that I was like, this kid is very talented, but obviously... This kid just smoked five M.E.O. DMT, and he's in the white room. Absolutely. I was out of my depth with where I was at in my brain.

And so she took my hand, and she's like, I got you. And I will never forget the feeling, because also I now know on the other side of it, when you are the person who's the name and you are doing a rehearsal at an award show or something like that, I also know that it's chaos for you. It was chaos for Celine that day.

That was a big deal. It was a song that was nominated for her. She was kind of in her sweats and she had her band asking her to do things and the Grammys were Ken Ehrlich was telling her to stand over here. So I also know from that perspective that that is also a stressful place to be in and if I were her at that point saying sorry your duet partner Andrea Bocelli isn't here we've got this kid he's a high school kid he's gonna sing it with you from Laksa honestly like nine times out of ten that superstar would have given less than zero shits about me about

and maybe have been pissed that possibly also She's gonna look maybe in a bad mood. That's her one time to sound check and he got she got some kid named Josh She got some kid named Josh. Yeah, exactly. Even the the the crew guys were like, we're looking for some Josh He's super late. Meanwhile, I've been staying there for 20 minutes early and I'm like, oh, it's me. He goes you All right, listen for the click. It'll come in a minute. But the fact that through all of her own chaos, which I didn't recognize back then because I was just lost in mind,

she had the wherewithal to put the fact that she had a very important job to do also aside to say, I've got this kid. I know how this feels and I'm gonna take care of this. So this is a moment for him that he's gonna remember. And so I will forever have gratitude to Celine for just- You ran through the song once or twice? We ran through the song probably twice.

I would say we did it twice because it was really, really quick. Yeah. And you know- And then it ends up you do it on the show. So not that year. Thankfully, Andrea showed up. Oh, great.

Kenner did tell me in the aisle, hey kid, buy a suit just in case. And I'm going like, I'm not ready for this shit. Like this is I'm I can't I don't think I do it. Luckily, Andrea did show up. But it's crazy how the full circle of it happens because like then I went back to school. I got this cool thing. I got to are you getting cocky? I wouldn't say I'm getting cocky. But that's a pretty that's a pretty fun thing to tell your friends about. Yeah, did they give a shit? They thought it was cool, but they also were just like, all right, cool. I was excited that it happened, but I think cockiness kind of came in later.

There was definitely a point in my career early on where I was like, okay, you got to knock this shit off. There is a point where you actually have Not just fun and cool experiences, but very real success Yeah where you realize that like all that hard work and all of those nerves and All of that baggage that you have of like not being enough all of a sudden you're thrown a million sales and accolades and and and also your ego is super confused because you're getting like

super success and praise in one ear and then there's always going to be the people that are hating on the other side and for a sensitive kid like even before the internet even and and that's before the internet i would not have survived in today's today's world if i were just starting out you know i was a sensitive insecure kid and i didn't understand how to take all that and and so i think it did come out, I think, in... It's so funny how, like, when you look back on how, like, you held yourself, and it was never ego. It actually was never ego or cockiness.

It was pure insecurity. But the only way to mask that and to feel like you're okay is to kind of be neurotic about controlling everything, and then, like, controlling everything makes you kind of be neurotic about controlling everything. And then like controlling everything makes you kind of a dick. And then, and so it's, there's the point A to point Z of kind of like being maybe a little bit like

big for my britches was actually like the A of it was just pure self-hatred and insecurity. And then, you know, and then you start to like mature and you actually, if you're lucky, have people who are friends of yours or close to you in the industry to say like, Hey dude, like, here's here's what's really going on. And you need to break out of your own ass and you need to you need to know, like, this

is the real world and this these are the people who are helping and this is this is what this is what you need to work on. I was lucky that I had David being one of them to really really help me understand like the forest for the trees with my own self-worth, with my own ego, with navigating the business. What does somebody like him advise you to make, what's grounding for you? What's center, what's the center? A perfect example, because again,

it all comes from insecurity. I'm a terrible listener to myself. When I have to listen back to something I've done, I love to sing. I love to express. But then when it comes time to, I would imagine it's the same for an editor or an actor if they had to go in the editing bay and they had to look at every daily, at every scene, and they had to sit next to the editor while they're deciding whether or not

their eyes are honest enough or their thing was this. The first time comedians, a lot of times they get an HBO or a Netflix special, it's the first time they've watched themselves for an hour straight. And I had boring comedians say, don't cut to the right side of my face. And it's like, dude, do you think the people on the left side, you think they had, the left side people had a good time?

Yeah. And the right, so it's universal. But that neurotic control freakness because of your own self-worth turns you into, like into some semblance of narcissistic because you're so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you're so. It's all fear-based.

Because it's fear-based, it's all fear-based. Because it's fear-based. It's all fear-based. And so, you know, an example of that was like I had filmed something as TV special or something. And again, it was my first time watching myself back singing on stage and seeing what I look like when I sing and seeing how I hear through like, how I sound through TV speakers as opposed to my like big fancy monitors. I can see your light. And I'm so lost in how shocked I am at how bad I look and how bad I sound to me, that I couldn't help but after being played this thing, immediately say,

oh, this needs to be fixed. That needs to be changed, all right? That sounds wrong or that looks wrong because I was just like, I was doing this to me. I was like, and David goes, hey, can I talk to you for a second? I said, sure, thanks guys. He goes, they have worked for a week on this.

They have worked their asses off to put together a special for you and mix you and make you look and sound fantastic. You need to start this conversation with thank you and with what you love about it. And then you can go into some criticism or you can give some notes, but you got to turn it around. And he like, you know, it wasn't mean it was a splash of cold water that was like, made me take a step back and realize like,

there is a way in which, not only to deal with people that you're working with, but also how to deal with yourself and how to deal with your own filter of how you view yourself and listen to yourself. And that I'll never forget, and I don't even think he knows I remembered that, but like that I'll never forget that,

when that moment happened happened I realized like oh Yeah, it's all it's because it's all fit You know facing myself But it's coming out as facing someone else and I always think of that too when I now run into Artists that have I try to give them the benefit of the doubt if they've got yeah But Diva behavior or if they are just acting like assholes is that is that some of them really are you know? There's there's some that are just pure ego, and it really is that the universe they're in

is the only one that matters. But there's a huge number of young artists, and especially when they get fame very quickly, that just don't know how to channel their own insecurities. And it comes across as, you know, less than savory. And you hope they grow out of it. Sometimes, like, dangerous habits develop. I was very lucky that I had that kind of advice,

like my first year in music. And that allowed me to change course and adjust. And, you know... Okay, so what was your inner monologue before that? And what was your inner monologue? What did you start to try to do? So, I was... All of that was because I was terrified it would go away.

I was terrified because I never fully believed at the beginning that I deserved to be there to begin with. And so whenever I saw something that I or heard something that I perceived to be really bad or just not my best, I always looked at that as like, this is an excuse as to why the microphone is going to be passed on now. And so, God, if I don't hang on to this for dear life and say the critical thing, then the industry is gonna do it for me. So I have to be super hyper, hyper, hyper aware. Even though you didn't expect any of this and was all a shock, you were still like, all right. It was worse because I didn't expect it. Because the fact that it came so abruptly and so successfully was

like this, I didn't know how to handle it because I wasn't in my mind playing the loop of what it would be like. I wasn't thinking of myself in the majors and then I got there and it's like, well, this is different, but this is the same and I'm ready for it. There was just an article, no, it was Anne Powers who I love. She used to write for the LA Times and she now does stuff on NPR. She was just an article, I know it was Ann Powers who I love, she's directed the LA Times and she now does stuff on NPR. She was talking about the Grammys this year,

it was a really fun Grammys and a lot, so many new artists were just knocking it out of the park. Every one of them was like so good. And her comment was like welcome to the Gen Z confidence that this is a generation that has grown up with a camera in front of their face. A friend of mine said a couple years ago, they all have stage presence.

And they are fully cooked. They go out there and they are ready for it. And that has stone trappings. A lot of them probably have to like grow up a little bit and all those other things. But they're ready to go. And they've been thinking about it. And they've been working on it

in their own houses and rooms and stuff. And so I was not that. So when I was- So you started being more empathetic, generous with yourself? Was it just like, Josh, it probably doesn't matter? I had to get over, you know, look, everybody has those first moments

where they first see themselves on TV or they first hear themselves, and, you know, are there some people that are probably like, I'm just absolutely delighted and surprised to be on my wildest dreams? Maybe a few. But I would say the vast majority of people who have only lived in their own head

about what it would be like to perform, and then they finally hear or see something back for the first time, and it's rough around the edges, it takes getting used to. And so I realized that I needed to be more generous to myself and also needed to work my ass off to then work on those things that I realized I didn't love. And, um...

What were they? You know, when you're a student vocally, and all of a sudden you're thrust into this high-pressure performance world, you're still a student. There were things I was working on with my tone, my pitch, my, you know, my range. Um, also my interpretation. You know, my, you know, my range. Um, also my interpretation, you know, interpreting a song when you've

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This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Look, apparently there's a stigma around men's mental health. I'm the one man band trying to end the stigma. It's silly. I also think it's like naughty. It's like an old, I think you'd be surprised. When I did three mics, people were like, are you afraid to say all that stuff? Basically what happened was, I said it, I exposed my emo side, and then other people would come up

and expose their emo side to me. So I basically just went first. If you're a man and you're feeling the way to the world, talk to somebody. A friend, a loved one, a therapist. Again, you know I go to therapy, you know I've been to therapy, you know, da da da da da. Boundaries, all the stuff it gave me. Lower my expectations, be realistic, but also process my own feelings and acknowledge them

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It's good. Therapy will help you. Huh? Look at me. So you figured out a way to just slow down. It's gonna be fine. Slow down and trust. I think that, you know, it can be so isolating,

especially when you're a solo artist, you're by yourself a lot. You're in the vocal booth, you're in the dressing room, you're in a tour bus, you're just festering in your own world. And so I think hearing David say something like that really, because I trusted him and it really meant a lot. And it also taught me, because of that aloneness

all the time, it taught me how much of a collaboration this is. I walked into that sound booth a solo artist where all the pressure was on me. Anybody giving me praise or criticism was using my name, my face, my stock was about me, me, me, me, me. And to a certain degree, it is in that you're the front of it. But that moment taught me about what an enormous collaboration,

any career in entertainment is, even if you're the name on the front, that it doesn't happen without that guy working his ass off to mix your stuff, that guy working on the edit to make sure that every moment is captured, David crafting these extraordinary tracks, the arrangers, every string player. So that was also like a slap in the face

that I needed to understand that, you know, I essentially am part of like a hundred person band and we are all in this together. And that there was, there was comfort, I essentially am part of like a hundred person band and we are all in this together and that there was there was comfort I think in that and knowing that the better I can adjust my own sense of self in the way that I communicate with people the better I can be a team leader because it has to be a team. And then when was was this very early? This was pretty early. This was like 2001-2002. So you have albums out. I had this was this was the first TV special I had done for

my first album. I did a TV. I did a television special for that album. And and it was it was the first time I'd ever seen myself back on screen. The interesting thing even like with your career, which we're gonna get to the blocks then guys. He's mentioned a few, he's graced a few of them. Even the Ave Maria and Raise Me Up, like the hits, they were hits then. That's when I was like, how? Well, Ave Maria was definitely a hit you raised

me up wasn't a hit until I did it but no no but I'm saying I don't mean you use hits I was like how did they get popular in 2000 2001 2000 like that's what what must have been how did you decide what to record an album certainly wasn't hunting for hits. And I say that you raised me up was a hit. It actually wasn't. It was never on the Hot 100. It was never on Top 40.

Never on MTV. It wasn't a hit by the metrics that you call something a hit. It was just everywhere. It was just something that people listened to a lot and put in the soundtrack of their lives. I know it's so funny. It wasn't a hit, but everyone listened to it.

Yeah, well it's true, because it wasn't on radio. It wasn't that kind of a song. It was just one that everybody just kind of took to and I sang on TV a lot and TV was very powerful. What were your expectations when you recorded these things? And then what was the genre? No genre, no expectations. Truly, I really mean that.

And I have to hold onto that whenever I may have made anything since. How did they, what was their plan for marketing it? At the time, you know, at Warner Records, there was a group of people who, like David Foster, believed in me, believed in my voice, and believed in the power of something reaching people, even if it didn't fit the categories that Billboard said it needed to, or that MTV or that Top 40 said it needed

to. That out of the box thinking by the people that were at the label at that time, Dear McQuinn, the late great Phil Quartararo, Phil Costello, Jeff Aroff, I shout them out all the time because they were like a breed of executive that like truly they had worked with everybody, Prince, Tom Petty. They understood the trajectory of an artist and they understood that the best moments

for what we now assume are the biggest artists on the planet, the best moments for them were when executives like them said, this is out of the box, and we're gonna find a way for people to hear it. That's what they did for me. When I recorded something like You Raise Me Up, we said, wow, what a beautiful song.

Anyway, moving on, we weren't thinking to ourselves that it would be the song. It was somebody, it was a couple of people at the label at that time who said, you know, like I played it for my wife and she just like loved it. I played it for my kid and it just cried. And they just said, you know, look it was all it was just basically feeling It was all about feeling it wasn't about data. It wasn't about numbers

It got played on the radio Once by somebody who because I went in so sometimes when you do an interview on the radio, they'll they'll they'll give you they'll gift You an air and not gonna happen here Can't afford it Let's dive in oh no, I could take You could technically sing it, but I can't use the- You can't use it. I understand. So let's do some Rolling Stones instead. Let's do a little under my-

Perfect. Satisfaction. And then that radio station's phone's lit up. Yeah. Lit up. And it was so old school, you know? It's like, I felt like I was just in an old timey radio. That was old school, you know? It's like, that's, I felt like I was like in an old timey radio. That was old school even then. Even then.

And now it's like ancient. This like this idea of, it was like a scene out of a movie where I'm looking at the lights, you know, and there's like an analog buttons. Like, oh, we got Cathy on line three. It's a hit, kid. That's the most wonderful, so I had to pull over and cry. Okay, thank you, Cathy.

We got Susan on line eight. If I hear that song every day for the rest of my life, it'll be too few times. Okay. And you know, and I'm like looking at the program or going like- Both Jewish women, by the way, if you're keeping score. It's a big, big, big song in the Jewish community. And yeah, and so, you know, you just kind of start feeling it in real time. And it's just one of those things. But and I've tried to conduct like every step that I've tried to conduct every step that I've made in my career,

whether it's been in music or theater or comedy, whatever else, in that kind of keeping where that light is, which is just like, stay where the feels are, stay where something feels good. Don't try, every single goddamn time, I've tried to squeeze into something that I thought might help me break through a certain wall or might help me get the attention to that cool writer

or whatever it was, never worked out. Yeah, it never will. It has only ever been when I've gone back to that place where I've been pleasantly surprised with how the lights go on. One of your blocks is loneliness from not really being in a category, which I want you to talk about.

Because I find it interesting and kind of relatable. It's, and I think that was all kind of part of some of that insecurity that I had at that age too. And honestly, like even at 43, like it takes me sometimes a little bit of pause to like, to continue to write the playbook for myself as I go into the, hopefully the next 25 years of my career and in my life. It's a weird thing when you're successful, like super successful

and also such an anomaly to people. Music journalism did not know what to make of me. They weren't writing about me at all. I was the number one selling artist, male artist of that year, no best new artist Grammy nomination. Like, it was just one of those things where I was like this alien that was like really doing extraordinarily well.

And at the same time, there was no club that I could be a part of. Like, at all. There was no table that I felt like I sat at. And so I felt... Which, again, if you're listening or watching and you're like, world's tiniest violin, it's still, the most basic human need is belonging.

Right, yeah. And you're sort of like, you think you're doing a thing that would make you belong. Totally true. Yeah, you're entering the music business, which is a community, and you're entering the music business, which is a community and you're very supportive The warmest he's still shocked Yeah, I mean, you know as but coming from theater that actually is pretty can be very warm and fuzzy

It was it was lonely. And so, you know, of course, it's like tiny vinyl at violin I had no reason to complain and yet I felt so shitty and I just I wanted other friends in music. I wanted to like you know enjoy having because it's no small thing to make it either. Like it is such a grind and such a every star aligning to all of a sudden have five million, oh my God, your debut album just hit five million. Like it's an enormous accomplishment. And yet because of that isolation

and because of that kind of like, good job kid, enjoy. And also the people that you are celebrating it with, I'm assuming label people are, whatever, they're all 15 years older than you. Yeah, exactly. As were a lot of the fans for me at that point too. So, you know, it was, there was no place to celebrate.

There was nowhere to go to like feel like, you know, I would high five my manager and my parents, you know? And I'd go out to dinner with a couple of my high school friends and they'd be like, hey man, that's five million, that's cool. You know, we'd go to Mel's diner and like have a, you know? And I'd go out to dinner with a couple of my high school friends and they'd be like, hey man, that's five million, that's cool. You know, we'd go to Mel's Diner and like have a celebratory burger. That was my little world.

I didn't, I was never invited to like any of the big music parties. I was never invited to the award shows. I was never invited to any of the stuff. Where you think now, if like, if you're one of those artists that like sells that, like you're one of the top selling artists of the year, that would be unheard of. But that was just the way it was.

It was just one of those things where it was happening in a total vacuum, and that vacuum also happened to be 15,000 people in an arena every night. But it was still a vacuum. And so it was on. Well, yeah, I wanna stop and see it from your point of view, which again, it sounds like, oh, only you got to do arenas, poor thing,

but like, it must have been like, ah! And then you get off and it's just like crickets. Totally, that's what it was. And you're kinda like, I don't even know, no one's gonna care. Yeah, yeah. No one's gonna empathize with this so-called problem. No, so I got real good at isolating

that my feelings of like, I would joke that I would become like Vicky the Robot, remember the show Small Wonder? Vicky the Robot would go into the closet and just unplug. Get in your cabinet. See ya. See ya.

It's just like, I'd be like, thank you, Ohio. And then it was like, pew. And I would just like It was just the transition from the stage back to the tour bus or the dressing room Was like as if it was just like anyway, and you're 20. Yeah, I mean 20 Yeah, I was I was 20 on my first tour. Yeah, so there are 21 or whatever like a young man Thank God. I didn't I didn't then take that loneliness and that isolation and then turn it to I didn't then take that loneliness and that isolation and then turn it to Self-medicating and unhealthy way in cocaine. Yeah cocaine. Yeah. Well, luckily I didn't have anybody around because I had no friends I had nobody around me to offer me drugs

What did you imbibe what did you sort of video games? Yeah, honestly, video games are one of them. I would stay up all night and just play. So funny, like back then I had to like route the the modem of my hotel room, you know, phones into like my my gigantic laptop, you know, and and and I would just I would I would like I'd get lost online I get lost in like online games I would like create like The Sims worlds and just like get, and video games even now are like still like a huge escape for me. Like truly like if I've had a long day in the studio or I'm just kind of feeling those things I'll just like dive into MLB the show or Call of Duty or something like that and I can, I can lock in. And that's always been like a jacuzzi for my head.

Like it's... I say that video games are like knitting for men. It's like crocheting for men. That's incredible because my girlfriend goes through the same things and her thing is crocheting and knitting. That's where she locks in and we'll lock in together and she'll crochet and I'll play Call of Duty.

And you're yelling the N-word. And yeah, you're awful. You transform into a truly terrible person. But the guys love it I I had to turn off the chat because that like it was it was it was it was undoing everything I was going into the game to do I feel like you would have been nice if they knew who you were They would have very supportive So so you're doing you're playing video games and no one you're just like this, and they're going, it's going great Josh, you're like, okay, cool.

Everybody around me who's making a fortune out of me is having the time of their lives. They're doing cocaine. And they are absolutely doing cocaine. They are having parties on the tour expense because they have also lived many lives in this business and they understand the magic of when somebody is hitting it and how incredible that is for the bottom line, for their success, for everything. So they have already probably, they've, and they don't, they also don't have the same stakes personally. When you're, when you're in the front, it's personal. Somebody likes your music, doesn't like your music, you sell well,

you don't sell well. It's your name on that billboard chart. You can't deny being Josh Groban. No. They can say, I don't, I barely worked on that or I was Josh Groban. No. They can say, I barely worked on that, or I went to one. They can also, they can work 10 artists at once, hedge their bets. And so they don't get to understand the feeling of performing. And they don't ultimately, if you hit it, make as much, or whatever it is.

And there's all these pluses, of course. But they don't have to take the personal hit, and that was indigestion, not emotion, the personal hit. Speak for yourself. As well. And so, yeah, so then you have to, it took me a long, it took me like 10 years of doing this

before I could also get out of the dressing room and join the party and, like, enjoy the life of this life. I was... Why did it take so long? Because I thought that if I let myself enjoy that stuff, it was also, like, letting my guard down and it would, something would go amiss. And so it took me a long time to kind of stop being so kind

of on and off, you know, on stage and off. Will you have a thing, one of your blocks is the building walls and is that related? Oh, definitely. Yeah, I mean it's There's I would assume that you are if I could guess maybe you were naturally defensive probably. Oh, yeah based on Yeah, the fact that you're like not invited to your Rudolph the Rednecks, right? It's like you're great, but like don't come. Yeah, you're not you're not a cool kid You're not like but that he was that was even back in junior high school and high school. And like that was, you know, we all have different walls

that come up in different ways. For me, sometimes performing was a great wall. Doing improv and comedy in high school was a great wall. Telling, making someone laugh is the greatest wall you can have. Tell me about it. It's a... But the blessing and the curse of that is that like it... Sometimes the rent due for that is vulnerability and like opening yourself up and like really, like truly smelling the curse of that is that sometimes the rent due for that is vulnerability

and opening yourself up and really, truly smelling the roses of your life. And so it took me a little while to understand that both of those things that I wouldn't lose any kind of edge or savvy by also opening up those things. And I'm still dealing, I deal with that even at 43 years old. I deal with that in my relationship I deal with that you know with my therapist I like finding ways to not like it what's the knock on you relationship wise well what's everybody saying over and over uh I I I think I'm probably I'm probably a little bit like my dad in this way and that we're like

I've got I've I think it's and I think it's because of having so much on my shoulders from such a young age that like, and doing it a lot, kind of just figuring out my own neuroses by myself, that those are, those things are for me to decipher, to figure out and then filter so that I can then be the best, my best self for the person I want to be great for, that I love. And that's my, to me, that's like my version of loving someone is to be my best self to figure my shit out so that I can be great for someone I think is great and You know my my girlfriend who's the most wonderful person on the planet the best thing that's ever happened to me

Has had to like say to me like dude like Then you have a very skewed idea of what a relationship should be. If you think that this is a one-way street of like, that, that I show you the warts and all, but you just, you just like, handle some of that by yourself. So I've had to like, get better little by little at the trust fall of like, being allowed to be all the things that from kid me to adult me has trained myself, hardwired myself to like figure out on my own because my own pride, my own everything else is like,

I gotta be okay. How do you hide in a relationship though? That's what I understand. Well, if you're the right person, you don't, you can't, which is why we're together and which is why I'm so grateful for her every single day. Is that a lot of it just in the conflict though? Like how would you before her,

how would you hide Your issues? I would just retreat. I would retreat and I would just kind of probably go quiet I would just probably just Something was obviously kind of like eating me up inside, but I would probably just say to myself You're okay. Just like just figure it out handle it take a walk Play your game go write a song, whatever. Like I would think that there were like things that I needed to do, you know, to self-like defuse,

but none of the things on that list were open up to your partner. Was it convincing? Of course not, no, it wasn't convincing at all. And there've been a couple of relationships that I've had in the past where it was like, well, if this is enough for you, then God bless you, but I'm out. And I totally understand every time that that's happened.

So was it like Josh is nice, but he doesn't, it doesn't feel like a very deep connection? What I started to realize was that isolation that I would put myself in, the pressure that I put myself under to figure out my stuff was not only lonely for me, it was also lonely for the person that was next to me. And so I, in my mind, I was like, well, I'm doing you, I'm doing the relationship a favor by like, by not like dumping stuff, by like figuring,

just you know, working on myself, but isolating, figuring that stuff on your own. And I've made a lot of progress, but it's always a work in progress. Would it leak out? Would the issue leak? Like let's say you were jealous of a girl or she jealous of whatever,

just that what issues that come up, jealous, you don't pay enough attention, or they get mad that you don't pay enough attention to them and then you get mad, how would you, would they, there'd be conflict and then you'd retreat and come back and act like nothing was wrong? My short answer then would probably be like, no, there's no conflict, but I would definitely like,

I can see now that I would probably just shut down for a little while, and that probably was disconcerting. And even if you do everything, you can say, this is not us, this is not you, I'm just working through some stuff that you're dealing with human beings, and this is a nice thing. I can say that, but I can also say that like, there is no such thing as bottling all that stuff up and it

not leaking out that some of that frustration some of that you know that weight is your your your you're still going to be porous in in certain ways and you might think that you're just like I'm holding it all together but little things are going to come out you probably were probably times where I was like a little bit short and didn't mean to be, or like, you know, it's gonna come out. So like, I had to realize through, you know, a lot of kind of self discovery and luckily through

the most incredible communication with just the most, you know, empathic and wonderful person that like, that these are all shareable things. That these are all things that don't actually mean that there's weakness there, that it's actually the braver, stronger thing to, to express in real time when those things are eating you up, whatever they are, no matter how stupid or small they seem to you. Having the, the, that it's actually like way more chicken shit to just Brit to put it inside that you think you're like, you're like handling it, that it's so much way more chicken shit to just put it inside. That you think you're like handling it.

That it's so much braver to just like to say it, to reach out. And I always say that I've written songs about depression. I've written songs about like how hard it is to reach out when you feel like you have to take it on yourself. And I have not always been, I've not always practiced what I've preached in that regard because it is so damn hard sometimes.

It's always way easier to write a song about something than to do it. Oh, for sure. For sure. It's kind of the point of songs. Yeah, for sure it is. But that does nothing if I've been dealing with that and I'll say to my girlfriend,

I've written a song about it. Great, can I hear it? What's it called? Oh no, no, no. Yeah. That's still useless. That doesn't work. That currency is invalid. Exactly. What if I told you the most luxurious place to listen to this podcast could be on your toilet? I almost feel like I shouldn't have to tell you that. Cloud Plus by Tushy Biday turns your toilet into a biohacking throne that automatically deodorizes the air the

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Bye. You put it down on the box and I think it's, I think I know what you mean now, which is some of that responsibility in terms of like, I'll handle it myself, may have been because of your performance career. Oh, I actually think a huge amount of it. That you're like, I can't worry about, I have to, the show must go on. Yeah. I really think so. And this is not like, you know, I think I was way more, I mean, I got into this business, like when I talk about all those stories of 16 and 17,

I was a young 16, 17. I was not like, you know, the fully cooked performers on the Grammys. Like I was a kid, you know, that was very sensitive, very open to the world, and very much reliant on others, and they were reliant on me. It was like, all the right stuff in me was before all that happened.

And the shrewdness and the coldness of this industry and the pressure, and then when you add on top of that, like, the performance pressure, because then you start to like you had to be capable You had I had to be able to do an arena and there were plenty of times where I did not feel like I was Living up to my own Expectations and then like letting yourself off the hook when that's happening is a whole whole thing And so it's all happening at once at a very at a time when I was really really sensitive and I do I think it

built like this very old school, like, you know, well, my grandpappy would just smoke his pipe and go into the... Like a form of stoicism. Go in the living room and close the door and cry. Yeah, it was a form of stoicism that developed from a kind of a, you know, a business that doesn't exactly train you otherwise. That not only doesn't prepare you for those things, but actually also celebrates that stoicism. That celebrates the show must go on.

The more that you bottle it up, the more that you just suck it up and do it. And you know, well yeah, but this thing is really hard on me or like I really worked hard on this and this person said this, fuck it, doesn't mean anything. Or I might, I feel like I'm gonna suck tonight. Or I kind of sucked for three songs tonight. Totally, yeah.

There's not really a lot of people to talk to about those things. And you just kind of develop a mentality that all of your self-worth is based on how well you can do when the light hits you. And the rest of it takes a way, way, way back seat. And you start to believe that as a human being, you start to believe that as a human being you start to believe that that's

That's reality and so you were a good boyfriend performer Yeah, I would say I was yeah I was but but it was shallow but it was shallow because I was just because and I didn't know it at the time but it was I was guilty the same thing because I can figure I just figure out what they want and then just do that well Because I wanted to because I wanted do that. Because I wanted to, because I wanted, if I liked somebody, I wanted to be, my version of like being right for them was like figuring out like what would be right. And it took me a little while before I was able to

be all of me, great song, for somebody. Can you give an example of a thing that you would have handled in-house before that you'll now openly discuss with your girlfriend? I think that the work-life balance, for me, music stuff is so vulnerable that it's like, if my radar for whether or not I think that I'm doing okay or sucking big time is so sensitive, that it's actually still to this day really hard for me to express to my partner.

Like I didn't sound good today. Like I just didn't sound good. I didn't sing the note that I wanted to. Yeah, I wrote a song with somebody, but I think it's shitty. And it's not good. Yeah, it's really hard for me, like with my manager, someone like that. What about with her? Is there stuff in the relationship that you're, that you're, are there feelings about, I'm

worried about the future, I'm worried about that you would have just gone like, handled it and don't worry about it? It's, in the past, I think for sure. If there were insecurities I had in the relationship or if there were things that I was worried about or things I wasn't happy with or needs weren't being met or whatever, I would not trust that I was correct about those things. And so I would just like, I'd bottle it up and I'd be like, here, be all right, let's be okay.

We'll be fine. We'll just, and you know, that obviously is not the way to go. So yeah, no, I- How are you with receiving notes? Pretty good, actually. Like I... In a real way?

Yeah, because I'm always expecting that there's something I need to do better. So, you know, I'm actually like way more open to hearing what could be better. Well, no, because you'll be a perfectionist about it. Yeah. I should have not even asked, because I'm way more interested in the stuff

that you would have just gone like, no, Josh, just shut the fuck up. You'll just find it will take over. I had a question about performing, which is the thing of how to become on, to turn it on. What did you learn? what did you learn? In terms of like, how did you get better?

What do you, is there a mental trick you, was there an approach that you used to take and then there was, you're like, here's the new approach and this is way better. Yeah, I learned eventually that stage fright, which I did have, was just the fear of not being in control and all of the like what ifs in my head

of like this could go wrong and they might hate you, you might suck on that song. I was spinning in the lack of control of it and that was making me nervous to go out there and of course it would like you warm up and then you realize, okay, the night's going the way I want it to. But what I started to do was I started to realize

that the nerves absolutely had a place backstage because I didn't have the reins yet. There was nothing to do. There was nothing to hold on to. It was all just energy out there, lack of energy back here, and then you're gonna be out there in that energy. And as soon as I started... It's a weird transition. It's a very strange transition, yeah.

Because an audience who's, like, gearingaring up and they're sitting there for 30 minutes and they're like lights go down and it's just elevated but they're they're living in it it would almost be easier as a performer to have been sitting out there with them for 30 minutes and then walk up and do your show because you because you're in it like it like it's way easier if I'm at like a charity event and I've been sitting at the table and then somebody is like come on up here and sing. Oh, all right, okay, all right. Cause you're in the vibe of the room. Going from that dressing room to that stage

is such a shot out of a cannon that it would make me very, very, very nervous. And so what I realized was that like, and this is just like a 10,000 hours just confidence thing, but once I realized that once I had the reins that when I, once I had the reins, that, oh, once I'm up there, I have a decision to make about how I focus on this and whether, I started to decide to enjoy it.

I decided that part of taking the reins for me was to have fun. And I know that seems so simple to say, but performing for me for really first the first many years was only fun for like the last 30 minutes, or the last encore, you know, because then I knew I'd done it. And now I can enjoy. And it was a mental grind to pretend that I was enjoying it. Once I realized that, like, oh, I could actually like, you know

Go back to your child self when you were singing in your bedroom and just like loving how it felt to sing So there's 10,000 people out there from the first note you sing Like love it. Have fun. You're gonna fucking nail it go go out there and have a great time take the reins And that just came from experience that just came from experience and there are some nights where you're worried that you're not going to do well because you're either coming over an illness or you're just not feeling it. And the best coaching I ever got was to simplify. Think of the lyric, tell the story, think of that kid that just wanted to sing that

song. Really try and go to the most simple common denominator. Don't think about you have 25 songs to do in front of this many people. Take it literally like word for word and just get through it and eventually build yourself up. There's a lot of sports psychology in that too. When I watch some of my favorite baseball players like lose their swing for like 10 games and you just start to see them like try little things and like slow down. They all have sports psychologists. It's and I think that there's a huge amount of sports psychology and performance in general.

There's all a plethora of ways to psych yourself out and psych yourself back in. So the thing that I wanna talk about is that you. The same, they're similar in comedy, right? I mean, it's. It's identical. When I watch. The thing I was thinking was,

I got tight two nights ago or three nights ago because I was trying a new joke and it just didn't work. And you can feel, you're really getting energetically rejected and kind of rebuked. And that's hard on your body. Of course. And so I was thinking like it must be fun to Do a song that like you fucking like this song

Yeah and so it would be easier in that way and you also like how they like it like there's there's a certain thing that happens when no matter how many times you hear the opening chords of something and When you feel like they're with you Even if you haven't quite gotten your confidence where it needs to be, that's comforting to know that you're gonna give them something they want. Yeah, how do you feel about interpreting, making the songs fun for you?

Meaning, because Bob Dylan's the best example where you go see him and you're like, why are you doing this to these songs? And they go, well, you gotta make it interesting for us. And it's like, yeah, but I paid. Yeah. And I'm, you know, I'm kind of in the middle between you and Bob. I feel like, ultimately, it is of service to the audience

for me to stay fresh, because at some point, I will get stale and something will be wrong and you won't know why as an audience, you'll just be bored. And even though you're getting kind of what you paid for, something's missing. So I owe it to the audience to stay, to do the Bob thing and figure out like new ways I can do it or figures, you know, just, and sometimes it's in ways that aren't even noticeable to the audience. Um, but, uh, but, but, you know, for me, the way to do that is also to just keep making new things.

Even if I, even if I don't always do them on stage, and even if you gotta sing some of the same hits or you gotta see, you know, that, that the important thing is to stay somewhere offstage where you're a little bit scared and you're, you're educating yourself and you're inspired even if one person cares. That's important.

When you start getting cynical about like, well, I just did the robot thing where it's like, I gotta go do the songs now I'm gonna come on. I know, that's the, because I obviously don't want that too, but it's like, I don't know, just do it the way I like, but just maybe be behind the beat

on the second chorus. You know? And I wonder if those artists know that the audience is feeling that way, because everybody's insecure. Even the biggest stars on the planet. And in their mind. Everybody knows when they're bombing. They're, and they, right, yeah.

And I think that they're probably, no matter how huge you are, you probably get bored of your own stuff. I would assume. But fans don't necessarily. At all. And so you sometimes think that you overthink what you think the audience needs to get in order for them to stay excited.

But it's really a you that's staying excited kind of thing. And so I try to, you know, I've tried to do hobbies. Like, that helps too. Like, honestly, like, finding things that aren't my job, finding things that aren't musical, has helped me kind of, like, get some perspective Honestly, finding things that aren't my job, finding things in art musical, has helped me get some perspective and stay on my toes in the prison. What are your hobbies?

You know, I have ADD, so I'll dabble in things for three months and then I'll stop. I took flying lessons for three months and was super into it and I'm halfway to my pilot's license and will be until the day I die. And you flew that drone into one of the firefighting trucks. Thank you so much. Firefighting planes. You wrote about you read about that. Yeah Actually, I've never done a drone thing because that would actually

Satisfy the flying video game thing This is a think tank. I wanted you to talk about the fact that you said you to talk about the fact that you said you kind of resent your talent and you have, it's that you are, I have talent and you're an introvert. Yeah. And the tension between those two things. Yeah. Walk me through your thought process,

like how do you process it? Like this performing's not the most comfortable thing for me. Right. But this is what we're doing now. This is the life that we've chosen. The people pleaser in me recognizes that it's a way for me to be useful

in a way that's really powerful for people. And so that part of me overrides my desire to curl up in a ball when it's time to go perform. And you know, it's when it's time to go perform. Uh, and, and, and, you know, it, it's fake it till you make it is actually kind of like, it's true, because when you, when you get yourself into the motion of doing it, you become it.

You do become it. It doesn't last for the whole show. It's just, it's just, sometimes in the opening moments, you're just, you're going from hibernation head to having to go be that person. And there are some people who are just- What do you tell yourself? Smile, motherfucker? I honestly- That's what I tell myself.

I don't have like- I'm telling you, yeah, yeah. I don't have like a- Revealing trade secrets. Smile, motherfucker. I don't have an affirmation in the mirror that I do. I just kind of like... Well, no, I'm just saying like when you're on stage singing, what's...

To a certain degree, there's kind of that... It's not necessarily like smile, but it is just like open. Open yourself. Because it's okay in the studio, because you can sing open, but still, like, be in your own little space. You know, finding ways to, like... Sometimes it is easy, it's just, like, open your eyes and take it in. Don't, like, sing with your eyes closed.

Don't, you know, don't, like, don't do Thom Yorke. Like, just, like, be in the space. Open your body and open your heart in the space. Easier said than done when you want to just be small. And so that's a performance-like muscle that I've had to build. When I walk out there, I start, I try to start with an openness and an acceptance of the energy that's in there with me instead of fighting it. Because everything in my instinct is to say, yeah, okay, but you I look at, I mentioned someone like Tom York,

where I look at like Maynard from Tool, or someone like that, where he just spends the whole show in the shadows. And I was like, man, what a lucky brand. Like, that's awesome. You have figured it out. It's like people that work in bed. Right, yeah, I should be in voiceover work.

Yeah, I know, yeah. But being an entertainer is also about knowing that you've gotta work on some of those things that are rough for you and because the audience deserves it. And so, continuing to- Do you find it embarrassing? It's not.

Meaning you come out and I don't know what kind of venues you're doing, but it's probably at least 5,000 people. So you come out and I don't know what kind of venues you're doing, but it's probably at least 5,000 people. So you come out or 20,000, which is Singapore. Sure. It's actually harder when it's smaller. If you're playing like a promo gig or you're doing something that's very, very small and you can actually see everybody and the energy is less, it's a lot harder to open yourself

up to that. When you've got like a sea of people and you're just kind of taking a like a like a broad stroke energy is coming at you. But but a non specific one. It's it's a lot easier. It is easier bigger. Yeah, bigger is easier. Even that even though the level of energy is pretty intense. In some ways. Yeah, because because I can't I can't see the one guy who's doesn't want to be there. Yeah. And and guy, that guy, that guy fucks me up. He really will get you. He will get me, yeah, yeah. Dad, no I'm just kidding.

And okay, so I like that you, you mentioned the word depression in terms of that stuff. What is that? What is depression? No, what is the, is it the, being an introvert and then it just adds to the alienation of like an introvert who has to be an extrovert and like this is uncomfortable and this feels incorrect or something or this is wrong? Like what is the, what's the feeling?

I think that it all is related to, but what if I open and it fails? What if I open and it doesn't work and it's not what people want? And ultimately, that's just vulnerability. That's just opening yourself up. I think that's the case in sports. I think it's the case in music. I think it's certainly the case in comedy, it's just getting over the fear of that protectiveness. That the more that you let your own energy

shine onto someone else and you open yourself up that way, the more, it's like there are video games where the monster, there's a little window where the monster's chest opens up and that's your one chance. That's kind of what it feels like sometimes That when that happens, that's that's the world's chance to say not so fast And so, you know, it's it's just getting over It's getting over that that bit of it

I think in in in ways that are large and small sometimes it's a performance thing, sometimes it's a relationship thing, but it's ultimately, for whatever reason, and I wouldn't even say it's just this business, I think it's just the way the world is. I think that- It sounds like it's just self-acceptant. It's a self-acceptant thing. Basically, just like, you have to accept your talent. You have to accept your talent,

you have to accept your position, accept what it is. One of the reasons why arts education is such a powerful tool that I believe in for young people because I really think that the antidote to that covering up and that fear is expression because little by little, if you can get a student in a school where, like in their home life, in their social

life, whatever else. And now they are raised with all the ways in which somebody can anonymously bully them and they can just one stream of toxic nonsense at all times. If they start little by little as a student, realizing what it feels like to be vulnerable and to be rewarded for that vulnerability, to do the school play, to paint that picture, to be part of the band, and for people to go, wow, that was great. That was a side of you I hadn't seen. That was awesome. Then that transfers into the person they're going to be when they study whatever it is they want to study, or they go off into their marriage, or whatever it is. It starts there. I had that when I was an arts student. That is exactly what my choir teacher,

what my Loxa teachers, what my improv teacher, that's what they did for me as a student. And then when I got into the business, it was very much not about that. It was all about bottling it up and doing the job. And so unfortunately, a lot of that, a lot of those great vulnerability lessons that I learned as an art student got unlearned

when I had to be a high caliber performer, that I then later as a high caliber performer had to then unlearn that to be the vulnerable art student again. That has been like a trajectory that I've had to kind of navigate over the last 25 years. And if I can help somebody else avoid that part of it who's in the business for the first time, I always enjoy talking to new artists. But it's something that we all kind of have to go through at some point. And if you're lucky enough to have people around you to

keep you where the light is and just kind of let you go through it Then then we are very lucky, but I've seen a lot of people crash and burn, too. I haven't Now you know Josh Groban a little bit better certainly did He's going on the road and he's about to start a Vegas residency. That's right. JoshGroban.com. JoshGroban.com. Everybody wants to have it, wants to have it real, my man.

All you have to do is open, open up your hand, my man.