Blocks w/ Neal Brennan - Katey Sagal

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

Neal Brennan interviews Katey Sagal ('Futurama,' 'Married with Children,' 'Sons of Anarchy' and more) about the things that make her feel lonely, isolated, and like something's wrong - and how she is persevering despite these blocks. 00:00 Intro 2:28 Growing up in Hollywood 4:11 Music career 6:13 Drugs 16:13 Getting Sober 18:55 Peg Bundy 24:49 Sponsor: Huel 27:45 ‘Married with Children’ 33:30 Typecasting & Dry Spells 37:30 Sobriety & Marriage 41:00 Parenting and Addiction 44:55 Remaining Present ---------------------------------------------------------- Follow Neal Brennan: https://www.instagram.com/nealbrennan https://twitter.com/nealbrennan https://www.tiktok.com/@mrnealbrennan Watch Neal Brennan: Crazy Good on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81728557 Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234 Theme music by Electric Guest (unreleased). Edited by Will Hagle ---------------------------------------------------------- Sponsors: https://www.huel.com promo code NEAL for 15% off for new customers. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My guest today, you've been a fan of hers for a long-ass time. She was on Married with Children. We were neutering the dog, Al. Oh, but honey, before you take him down, could you ask him for a few pointers? She was on Futurama. It's me, Lila. And still is on. Futurama comes and goes.

She was on Sunt of Anarchy. To the thought of that before your dick went on a cheerleader hunt. I won a Golden Globe for that, which I didn't know. I tell you what, this is awesome. And now she's on the Connors, which used to be Roseanne. It transitioned to the Connors. What the hell is wrong with you? And she's got a podcast with her No Good Husband called Pye with Katie Segal and Kurt Sutter.

And she's here. My guest, Katie Sagall, everybody. Hi, Neil. Yes, hi, hi, hi. Do I look at the camera, too? No, you. I look at you. Yeah, we, now we just connect.

Okay. Do you mind? No, not at all. You know, looking up your, as I said to you before, I've always been a fan. I mean, it was hard not to be a fan of yours and married with children, but like, you're so good. You're just, anytime I see you, I'm like, you can do the job. Anytime I've seen you with a job, you can do that. You're just very good at it.

Thank you. Yeah. I don't know if you feel confident in the job. You know, it's interesting you say that because for the longest time, after I did married with children, I didn't really want to do sitcom because I had done it for a living. years. Yeah. And then lately. It was 11 years. It was 11 years. Lately, since I was a guest star on the Connors for three or four seasons, I thought, oh, I do this well. Yeah. I might like this again. Yeah. So, because I've done, I've veered off and done other genres, which is great. It was very

hard to get a dramatic role and I finally broke in there. But, you know, I, I, I'm good in front of an audience. That's why I know. Yeah. Yeah. And I do feel that way. Oh, you were also on the nine simple rule, 10, eight simple rules. I knew I got it. With John Ritter. With the great child. The great.

Yeah, like, so you can, again, you can do it. I can do it, but I think what was, for me, I get bored easily. And I also never thought of myself as funny. I always thought I'm way more dramatic. I grew up as a very dramatic child. They called me Sarah Bernhardt, for those are too young. That was a dramatic actress. Because I cried all the time.

I was just kind of a mess as a kid. So I always thought, oh, I'm a dramatic actor. And if I'm going to be an actor, which was never the plan to begin with. But after I did married, I just really wanted to do something different. I wanted to do dramatic acting. Got it. All right. Another thing I didn't know until we did.

I wickied you very quickly, even though I knew most of it. But didn't know you grew up out here. Did? And didn't know your dad was. was in what your parents were in show business. Yes. Your dad was a director. My dad was a director.

He started in the Yiddish theater. He, I grew up, I was born in Hollywood. And we lived kind of a gypsy life, moved all over Los Angeles. So back then being a director wasn't lucrative. Well, in the Yiddish theater, it wasn't. Then he started working Playhouse 90. These are things that a lot of people won't know what they are. But he, and then he became a very well-known episodic television director, man from uncle, Dr. Kildare, T-H-E-Cat.

I mean, all kind of like, yeah, that's what he did. And did what did you, did it occur to you that not everyone's life was like that? My life was not glamorous. So, no, I mean, because I know other people that grew up here that had movie star parents. So it was glamorous. You know, if your father's a director, he just works all the time. you know, you barely see him. He's on set, you know, 15 hours a day, working very, very hard. So I never got the impression that show business was glamorous. I just thought it was a hard day's work.

How did you end up getting into it? I started as a musician. I did not want to be an actor. My parents were like, I started playing the piano when I was about 13, and I had a little piano, moved into my room, and I wrote songs and smoked a lot of cigarettes. and do a lot of stuff. And I wanted to be a musician. That's what I wanted to do. And my father was kind of against it. He eventually put me in a television show when I was about 18 so I could get a union card.

Okay. But that was sort of like, but I was poo-pooing the whole thing. The way that I got into acting was I worked as a singer for all through my 20s. I was a background singer. I made records. I was on a lecture records. I was on Casablanca, I was on all these things, but it kept kind of not happening. Well, that's what you have, one of your boxes is being a musician, and you said something I never

hear musicians say, which was, I fucked it up. Or yeah, I just weren't, I wasn't good enough. Well, that was, you know, when I look in hindsight now, that's what I can say. I would say at the time as sort of a, you know, rebellious 20-year-old, it was definitely, like, why don't they see me? Why don't they get me? In hindsight, I was doing that thing that so many people do, which I was chasing what I thought was popular. What was popular? What was it? One time I was wearing paper mini dresses and trying to be an 80s kind of, you know, what did you quote? Robert Palmer. Yeah, a little bit that. And then I would change my clothes and

try to be Stevie Nix. And then I would change the style of music and be Tina Turner. And, you You know, it was sort of like rather than trusting that whatever I was delivering was going to be okay, because I'd had some little success in bands, but I didn't, I just kept. What should you have, what should have been your genre, yeah. I should have just played my piano and I should have been, well, Laura Niro was who I really wanted to be. But I should have just kind of stuck with this like soul music thing that I really, really wanted to do. And instead, I did the Pat Benatar thing. You know, I tried to be a rock chick.

Or runaway. Yeah. Yeah. I tried to do all these things. But I didn't really realize that until much later, that that's probably what eluded my success. That and a lot of, well, drugs and alcohol really paid a big part. You were doing a lot of drugs and alcohol?

Yeah. Lots. Another thing, nobody ever really says, yes, I was doing lots of drugs. I was. In a gleeful way. Did you enjoy it? I did until I didn't. I did until I didn't.

How long was the did period? The did period was a good like 15 years. Not, not, and I'm not going to say, you know, balls to the wall 15 years. But there were a good four or five years of balls to the wall. The last four or five? Yeah. Yeah. But you know, at that time, see, I worked on the road.

I worked with Bet Midler and I worked with Bob Dylan for a minute. I worked with Tenia Tucker as a background singer. Got it. I would open for Edda James. I worked with Edda. I was in her band and she would like push me out. What kind of crowd would Edna James have? Little clubs.

I went all over the country. You know, we were playing. This is when Edda was not. Mostly black, mostly mixed white. Mostly black. Great. And some white. I mean, we had like a mixed band for sure.

But she wanted me to open the show. So at the beginning of the tour, I'm doing one song. By the middle and end, I'm doing four songs. And then so that was. was pretty exciting. It was very, it was great. So you'd be doing drugs on the road and drinking and doing drugs on the road? Yeah, which like everybody did. I mean, this is what? This is the 70s and 80s. So it was normal. It was like you just did that and as long as you could make it to the gig and not fall off the stage. You know, I was pretty secretive about it. So I don't think

Ms. Midler knew that that was going on. She's an avid listener. So it's a good. Is she? It's a over. No, no, I would tell her to her first. But anyway, so my path to being an actor, though, was definitely after I kind of realized I couldn't pay the rent. And I better start saying yes to some things. I was very snobby about the whole thing. I was only a musician. I guess it was rebellious against my family. Like, you know, they were in that part of the business. Oh, I know what it was, Neil. When I was about 24, my father sent me to an audition. And the casting people said to me, literally, to my face, you're just not TV type. You should go do something else. Like, don't act, don't perform. Go be theatrical. Go, I think I was, like I said, I was very emotional.

So I was probably way over the top, whatever it was I was doing. I got to got it. And they were like, But also, this was the days of Dallas. Sinus Deid. Everybody was blonde and perfect. I just didn't fit the mold. So. Can we talk more about drugs and alcohol? Sure.

Whatever you'd like. What were you? So would you get drunk every day? Just was it the kind of thing you'd drink and then do Coke to say to sober up and then get drunk again? Yeah, yeah. Yo-yo thing? That would be like a weekend situation. But I was very functioning. It started when I was 14 years old. I was a fat kid. Yeah, that was one of her blocks. My parents took me to the doctor and the doctor gave me amphetamines. There you go. Now we're talking. It was so fun. And I didn't lose a pound,

but I felt so much better. I probably, I needed antidepressants is probably the truth. Because I was kind of a dark, sad, fat kid. Okay. You were eating your, and even meth didn't, even amphetamines didn't make a dent. Not a huge difference. I mean, you know, but it did start a lifelong need for something to change the way I felt. That's what it started. So just you didn't like the way you felt in your body? I felt much better when I was on amphetamines. Okay, so you didn't mind the way you woke up or the way you were at 11 a.m. or whatever. But there was a better. It was better. There was a better. There was a better way to go. I was more. I thought I was just very badass and

cool and kind of because I was I was I grew up on the west side. What's interesting is like you are though. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like you like you are. So I'm wondering what what you look like or what you're how you were presenting back then. Do you think that you're what's cool about you now or what's in or what the thing that I think is cool about, you know, is comfort in your own skin? Oh, that's a big contributor, absolutely. I think now at this time of my life, I really don't give a fuck when anybody really thinks. I mean, I, you know, I want to be kind and polite, but you know what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not out to impress. I don't have big FOMO anymore. I don't have any of that. But growing up, I was kind of like, here's a perfect example.

I was always the brides, I made never the bride. My best friend was like, gorgeous, this knockout girl that I just loved her. She was so great. And she was older than me and all the boys liked her and the boys didn't like me. So that's a pretty good snapshot. Because you were fat? What? I think so.

That's what I would say. You know, it's a pretty superficial age, high school. High school through death is pretty superficial. The whole thing's pretty superficial. Katie, let's be honest. And, okay, so. And then when did you figure out, I'm assuming, when did you start to be not fat? Oh, by the time I was in my 20s, by the time I started to go on the road, by the time I found cocaine, by the time I, you know.

Before there was Ozzypic, there was cocaine. Not legal, but probably around then. But it's interesting when you grow up with that image of yourself, you know, it takes a long. time to let her go away. So, I mean, I still have my days sometimes when I don't quite see myself clearly and I've learned to just stop looking on those days. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like don't focus quite so much on yourself. What do you focus on? Somebody else. Like helping? Is it one of those things of like contrary action? Is it like be of service? Yeah, it's a lot of those. It's a lot of of those kind of little tricks.

You know, sometimes I'll just go make my bed instead of, you know, or I'll just walk out the door or I'll answer the phone to somebody that I know is going to want to talk about something that they need to talk about. So I will. I'll just get off myself, you know, because I can still really pick away. And is it, it's like a form of dysmorphia where you're like, what is, is it like a lot of touching and closing? Well, a little bit, a little bit of that, yeah.

But like I said, at this point in my life, I kind of don't, I'm not as hard on myself as I used to be. I was always very hard on myself. Yeah. You're drinking, doing drugs. How were your romantic situations? Filled with drinking drugs. Well, I got married early.

The first time I got married, I was 22. Not that uncommon back then or still uncommon? I think it was kind of uncommon. I mean, but the indication of where I was at was, he was a bass player in my band. he asked me to marry him. I like it so far. I actually thought nobody may ever ask me again. So I'm going to say yes.

And it was a time of my life where I had lost my mother and my mother had passed away a couple years previously. So I was just looking for someplace to be, to land. And yeah, and that marriage was filled with all kind of party favors. And then you came to your senses, how soon? That marriage lasted about four years. Oh, that's not bad. For a basis?

Yeah, pretty good. But we were both like on the road with different people. I mean, it was just a shit show. But we actually didn't get divorced for a while. I remember saying I had a boyfriend after him. And I was like, I'm not sure about this guy. So let's just stay married. And what were you doing in those things?

What were you, were you, were you miss playing your life? Were you, do you know what I mean? Like, what were you doing that was like faulty behavior? Well, I was kind of the, first of all, I would always be with men that had a bigger alcohol problem than I did. So I sort of, I was able to hide my own. Oh, got it, got it, got it, got it. In other words, so you're smoking opium during the week, right?

Opium. You? Not me, a husband. Oh, fuck. I want to smoke opium. It's like one of my great regrets on my bucket list. Chasing the dragon. Yeah, I just want to, it just seems great.

Well, he thought so too. You never, you never tried it? I did. Oh, yeah, yeah. But what do you think of it? Thank God I did not like it because I was very much, you know. So anyway, so he's doing that during the week and I'm doing blow on the weekends, you know, and then taking some little diet pills amphetamines during the week.

So, you know, I don't have a problem. Nothing's wrong with me. So I was always able to deflect the problem to the other person in the relationship. And that was kind of my dating pattern as well. And you think, I mean, obviously, there's the, like, psychological thing where we supposedly pick these people intentionally. Mm-hmm. Do you think that's what it was? Yeah.

Yeah. I'll tell you exactly why. Go. I know all this. Here's a therapy. Yeah, right. So my mother was sick most of her life. My mother suffered from heart disease at a young age and also depression.

So my life is the oldest of five was a lot about making my mom better and making. my mom feel better and trying to get her off of pills and just smoke weed. And were you like the assistant mom as well? I was kind of the assistant mom. More so than not, we all kind of splintered, you know, into our own little worlds. But I was very much the, you know, I just remember coming home from school and sitting outside her bedroom door like two in the afternoon waiting for her to wake up. And so I was that kid that I was the savior kid.

Yeah. So, yeah, all the husbands needed a little saving. So that was my position. That's when I knew I was needed. Got it. You were a bit broken, and I was just not quite as broken. So that was kind of where I was. It's so funny.

I first saw in Mary of Children and how you were presenting, obviously, in the character, and it's a sitcom. but what you think of yourself relative to that is like the opposite. I cannot tell you how many times my agent would come. She's also my best friend. She's now my manager. She would come to the show. I would do the show. And after the show, I would say to her, did I look fat?

I would say, did I look all right? Was I okay? Because I also grew up with a director who's all about exterior, what you look like, house had to look. look perfect everybody had to look so yeah it was really and like when people would treat me you know they would call me a milf you know and I was like I it was very hard for me to kind of put the two together I didn't like that they were talking about somebody else or something something or I just didn't think it was really me or I don't know what it was I mean like now I can look back on clips

and I can be like wow I looked hot I look taught. But at the time, I feel like I missed all of it. I was just sort of, I was just getting sober when I started that job, literally four months sober when I got that job. Do you think it helped or hurt? Did I was sober? Did it make the job more stressful? Well, I was really scared. I was so scared. And I remember my first day of work, somebody in recovery said to me, you should tell somebody there that that's what's your deal and like almost the first person I told was also in recovery and so it just set a tone of comfort but I was um you know I was just really good at I'm just really good at being full of shit at least I was then like I could hide you know what I

mean you know what I mean yeah what do you what do you mean what do in case someone listening or watching doesn't know what you mean what do you mean I mean, I could hide my real feelings about myself, my low self-esteem. And in some part of me, I knew I was a good performer. I knew, like when I was trying to be a musician, a singer, and I would get very close to a lot of big success, I knew I was good. But I think that that darker side of myself that didn't want to believe that would kind of sabotage about it. So when I say a dual self is that I think, I don't know if you relate to this as a performer, but growing up, I remember feeling like, I don't, I'll just say it this way, I don't have a spine. Like I don't have, like I can fit in any group.

I can go over here, I can go over there. You won't know me really well, but you'll like me, sort of, and then I can fit. I think it's why I can be an actor, because I can sort of put on other clothes. And so that's what I mean. I think I was really good. You're like a sort of a mystery to yourself. A million, a little bit. Yeah.

Like, I'm not even, there's no, there's nothing here. There was, yes. I know the difference because now I feel more examined than I was. but at the time, which I don't know what 20-year-old is really getting into examination. Maybe they are. I don't know. Probably not many, yeah. I wasn't. I mean, or when you do it, you're just being dishonest about it.

Or something. Yeah, you're just trying on different people. Yeah. But I think that that was, I was just a good, I was able to hide. I was a good hide. I'd lived in a lot of secrets. So it was probably fun to use that as an escape. Oh, so fun.

And plus, you know, like when I did married, I mean, I was with Ed O'Neill, who was fantastic. And so I, yeah, I felt right at home there. Once I kind of surrendered to the fact, even though it was funny, the first five years of married with children, I had a band. I played on the weekends. I made a record on Virgin Records. Because the whole time I kept thinking, oh, this is going to go away. I better keep my real gig. Yeah.

I better. Last 10 years, tops. For you? No, I'm saying, like maybe this goes 10 years and went 11. I wasn't even think, no, no, I thought it was going to be, I mean, it was on this network that wasn't even a network. Yeah, it wasn't a network. It wasn't even anything. If you were too young, it was like literally Fox had just started and this was their first show with The Simpsons. Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah, pretty much. And they would show it three times a night just so people would watch it. Yeah. Okay. So then you're, you got sober and you're doing this and you're doing and you're singing and how's it feel like and how's it feel like it's going? Feels like it's going pretty good. It was. It was interesting it was like the first time in my life i also stayed single i was like you know do tell very no i'm very interested in that because i think it's a thing that more people should do

stay single yeah like intentionally be single or i think you have kids at this point i didn't no i think it was intentional i think in my brain i was always looking you know you know how like are you ever really intentionally single like i'm just not going to you know you're i think you're still kind of looking for some, but I just didn't find anybody. It wasn't happening. I mean, I would date. I would do this. But I was also dealing with like, you know, all of a sudden I'm, I'm famous, which growing up, I always felt like I was going to be famous. But then towards my late 20s, I thought, oh, maybe I better sell real estate. You know, I don't know what the fuck's going to happen. so there was a lot going on at that time so dating was not a priority and also I was still picking like not the right guy what kind of guy were you picking always musicians always and never the right

guy and and I can't say not just for Katie for any one you know my current husband who's a writer producer first guy I've ever been with it wasn't a musician first guy every person every man in my life. This is a very broad question. It may be hard to answer. What's the difference? What's the difference? I guess if you only have a sample size of one, it's hard to tell.

But what is, how can you, can you tell a guy as a musician? Is it one of those things where if you're attracted to a guy, you want to go like, so what instrument do you play? Well, it kind of ended up. It sort of was that way. I mean, there's a certain simpatico about playing music with somebody. I'm sure that, you know, because there were usually people that I, I, I, I, you know, because there were usually people that I, you know, I was playing with. And so there's a, there's just an

unspoken thing about that. But see, with Kurt, you know, we worked together on sons and he wrote that part for me. Did he know you? We were married. Oh, you're married. All right. Great. So we were married and he wrote a book. But did he know you? I'm kidding. Who knows? You'd have to ask him. Hey, guys, it's me, Neil Brennan. I don't like spending a ton of time eating. I once told somebody that I don't have dinner with men, which I think I don't know what I meant with. I was, I think it came across as hostile, as you can probably imagine. I mean, I would have to be a friend to have dinner. This was like a new business thing, and I was like, I don't know I have dinner. Anyhow, that's neither here nor there. I don't like

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yeah throw it in the hopper you know my second husband was a drummer and he played on my records and we you know played in bands together what do you think the difference is between being a famous woman and a famous man in what genre sitcom what do you what do you think your experience was like although ed had seemed like i guess the way that the way the sitcom was or just like a famous guy in hollywood versus a famous woman in hollywood where it's like famous guy you get like more girls and but I don't know what a woman gets a woman gets a lot of intimidated guys okay scared to talk to you guys and that how what do you think of that did you think of stupid did was it like hurtful I thought I didn't interpret it as what it was I thought it was because I wasn't enough there there there comes this childhood thing again you know I just thought

or somebody was dating me because of that because they saw me on television or something. So it was always, but mostly it would be like, oh, I'm, you know, I went through many years if I'm not enoughness, not pretty enough, not smart enough, not, you know, just not really enough. Did you ever think I'm not funny enough? Was that a thing? I've always thought that. Oh, you've always thought you were not funny enough. I'm really funny if the writing is good. I'm funny if it's good writing. And I've been given stuff that's not good. writing and been told it was supposed to be funny and you know yeah i've tried but um no i never really thought of myself as uh as like what was what was a negative monologue when you're doing a sitcom

like that and it's doing really well for a long time do you think like it's ed it's the kids it's the show it's the right or how can you talk yourself out of something that success so obviously successful and can you? Or could you just go, you know what, Katie, you're not bad at this? Sometimes I feel sort of sad about those years because I think I missed a lot of it. I think I was out of what was happening. Yeah. And I was too much in how I felt about myself globally. You know how there's like self-esteem about what you do? And then there's just like the whole enchilada of like, You know, I don't feel great about myself. And so I think that those years I was really still sober, but still running from any kind of resolution of the darkness that I had carried for so long.

You know, little pieces of it were being chipped away. So I don't know if I thought, I never thought I was the shit for sure. Yeah. I was just like, no way. did I think like, yeah, I got this. And I was mostly, what was great, I was mostly very teachable. I loved being with Ed and even Christina and David had worked more than me. So I was very much open to learning what to do.

My very first sitcom was with Mary Tyler Moore, which happened right before married with children, and I was not sober. And that was... Was she? She might not have been either. She was. She was. And she would talk about it. Ah.

And years, well, years later, I took her to lunch because she kind of planted the seed. And I thanked her for that. Great. Yeah, it was really good. But she, but talk about learning. I just, you know, here I was, I learned on the job. I never really went to acting school or comedy anything, you know. Were you, I don't remember what season was what or whatever, but did you get, did you look back and be like, I wasn't very good at the beginning?

and then you got good or you were always pretty good? Well, first of all, I haven't really re-watched them. You should. I don't get it. People tell me it's really funny. That it holds up. Yeah. I just always thought we were good.

Like the chemistry between, first of all, when Ed and I auditioned together, it was instantly good. Like, I knew that there was a connection between the two of us. And he made me laugh so much. He was so funny. I'd take a picture to me so you can remember me when I was beautiful. What, you're going to get worse? Shut up and take the picture. I never took it on like I was good.

It was more like we were good. Great. When you say you were running from your shadow or whatever, what made you finally realize you're running and how long did it take to, like, deal with it? I think we still, I think you always deal with it. I don't think there's like you're done dealing with it. But I think, you know,

when I started to have kids, there was a big shift in focus from, first, that to me was so miraculous that I was able to have children. Did you not think you were going to be able to? Well, I'd had a couple of real misfires before. I'd had a miscarriage, then a stillborn child. It was all on married with children. I mean, it was a whole thing, and they wrote it into the show and then Oh, Marcy, this is so wonderful. The pitter-patter of little feet after 18 years. This is truly a joyous day for us all. One day it was gone. It was a nightmare.

Yeah. But it was also a very much... So the fact that I was having children and able to have children, and there was something so unself-obsessed about it. Like I finally was able to heal a lot of my kid stuff. by watching my children and parenting my children and understanding, you know, I would make mistakes and I would understand like where they came from. And I didn't want to do that. And I would change that behavior. And then I would realize, oh, that was a learned behavior. That's how I was treated. I don't

really like that. So having children was a big digging, digging in. Did it make you have empathy for your parents? Oh, absolutely. Yes. It really did. The whole show biz journey gave me empathy for my parents, too, because, you know, it's a, it's a weird ride. It's awful. Okay, hello. It's awful. It is an awful ride. It really, really is. Yeah, I'm joking and I'm not joking at all. It's like, it's a terrible way to make a living. It really, I have two, my two older kids are both in it, and I'm just, you know, empathetic all the time with what they are, you know, because now, it feels like it's even harder to get over the wall. I completely agree. Yeah. I mean, when I was, even though I struggled for many years as a musician, but as an actor, it just kind of found me,

which actors hate when I say that. Yeah, I'm sure it's hate. And it's like, no, but you're good. So I don't, you know, who gives a shit? A buddy of mine makes, Roy Wood, a great comedian, makes an observation about nepotism. And he's like, you want to see nepotism? Go down to a construction site.

Oh, yeah. It's all nepotism. Everybody, or a plumber. Yeah. It's all, every, most jobs are nepotism. That's right. You can make it seem like it's just showbiz, nepo baby, whatever. Most babies are nepo babies.

Yeah. Of some, some, some, you go into the family business. Yes. Yeah. So once I got off of married with children and then I had some like dry spells and weird jobs. What do you think of the dry spell period? I'm always interested in when people are on a big thing and then there's, and then it's, oh, it's off for, it's been off for three years.

People still think it's on. Right. But you're like, no, I'm not doing anything. No, no. Or you're doing like movies of the week for lifetime. Or you're doing, you know, which was kind of a thing then. Sure. So I was sort of in that business.

And then really what was happening was, oh, and I think I did, I had a deal with some network. I did some pilots that didn't go. You know, there was stuff going on, but nothing was hitting. And I remember thinking like, oh, well, I'll just go to my next job. when this is over. I did not. It was a rude awakening. It definitely was. And then when I decided I wanted to do more dramatic work, nobody would see me really. I mean, they just wouldn't take it seriously. And the first job I got was on Lost. Do you remember that TV show? I like bald guys.

I'm not bald. I can wait. And I remember them bringing me in. I had to audition, I want to say three times, maybe, you know, just so that they didn't think Peg Bundy was going to walk in the It's a tough hurdle when you've been in someone's living room a certain way for that long. And a lot of people don't get out of it. Yeah, the dry spells were, I remember telling my kids always because, you know, like my kids thought you always went to the airport in a black car. I was like, no, that's not what happens. I remember really emphasizing that I wasn't getting jobs to them.

I just wanted, you know, little kids to know that it's not always, you know. Did it make a difference? They're in it. They're totally in it and they're great. They're really good. Yeah. And it might not make a difference. Right.

That might be good enough. It might not. Well, the one of them is doing, one of them is on a show called Tell Me Lies on Hulu. Oh, great. All right. So they are working. And my daughter is also working. But, you know, not, she's not a series regular yet.

She's whatever. She's working. Okay. So what was the, so the kids were good for excavation? Deep diving. Yes. Painful? Well, I was in a really painful marriage at the time with my two older kids, a marriage that he just passed away this last year.

Yeah. And we always remained friends, basically, once we got through the rough part. But, you know, he too had addiction issues. And at that time, I was completely clean and sober. And so I was kind of dealing with that a lot. How can you be sober in a relationship with somebody who's not? Like, I, friends who talk about it and it seems they act like it's easier. I'm so codependent.

I couldn't, I can't, I don't even like when people drink a, I can't, I don't think I could do it. Well, it didn't start that way. It started as two sober people meeting. And then the revolving door started to happen. And when that starts to happen, it's its own little disease that pops in. The revolving door of sobriety, of recovery, of like relapse or falling, all that stuff. And, you know, and at that point, I have a kid, and at that point, I'm in my own sort of like the family disease part of this thing where I'm thinking, oh, this will get better. That was then.

That was that one time. This will get better. the families of we we we get sick too and so that whole just with daydreaming with daydreaming with daydreaming with like buying it back like you know I mean being an alcoholic myself I know how manipulative I can be even not drinking like it's just it's the personality yeah even not drinking but I don't I don't lean on it's it's harder to lean into that when you're not when you're sober it's just harder to to be tricky to have secrets to be manipulative it's just harder because it's not the way um that i feel comfortable anymore i just don't i don't i don't really want to

tell you a lie or even a little white lie i don't want to i don't want to do that did that was it gradual very oh yeah i was still a liar for a long time yeah oh oh no no you want to I don't like it, no. But that becomes, you know, it's like in order to stay in recovery, you know, you still are fighting what's going on in your brain because it's really that's where it lives is in your head in that thought process and that perception of things. And the longer you're in recovery and the more you stay around it, that stuff all begins to shift. And you just feel more comfortable in a in a in a in a in a in a in a serene place did you have to manage it in terms of like how it's affecting marriage the tension with that and is this should I should I go should I get I mean

the first time I went to another room was was was at the end of that that marriage and and having that weird feeling of I should go but I can't why can't I? why and what I understood I should leave the marriage but I'm I seem I'm incapable but I'm incapable and and I do realize that what that was was I didn't want to break you know it's like I come from a family that was a bit splintered so I made a family that in my mind was not going to get splintered and so I was going to I was going to ride it out and that was until it became something that was not but was possibly dangerous for my children that that's what got me out what do they if you can speak about it or it could be very well private

but what do they think about it about your kind of ending the marriage oh they understand they you know it was one of those things though where the best advice I ever got was you know not to say anything bad about your children's dad yeah you know and I never did I never did and knowing that as they got older, they would see what they would see. Yeah. And they did. And at that point, there was more conversation about, you know, what the circumstances were. What do you do when they see something negative? Do you just still try to be as neutral as possible? Yeah. If they're adults and everyone's an adult. Oh, if they're adults or if they're little? If they're an adult or near an adult and they notice something not great, then do you go like, yeah,

Is that, because at what point are you not supporting their perception and? No, no, I think early on, we always talked to, because Kurt basically came into their lives when they were four and six. So we always spoke very openly about addiction and about recovery and about, we just always have talked that way. So when things would get, got funkier a little bit, you know, sort of teenage years, it was very easy to have those conversations because I, believe it's an illness. And I don't judge people with an illness. I'm not going to judge you because you have cancer. So I'm not going to judge you. What if it's COVID and they didn't get the vaccine? Well, then I might be a little pissed off. Yes, might be. Yeah. All right. So I kind of explained it as this is what you learn about kids. It's like even when somebody told me raising kids,

like don't give them too much information, wait till they ask. Like don't sit down and tell them all about what sex actually is until they start to ask because they're not old enough to know yet. Yeah. So that's kind of how it went. And you would do it with empathy and with without empathy, with, you know, tolerance and also pissed off, angry. I mean, I don't believe that, you know, when people do shitty things, you get to be mad. You get to feel like, hey, that really wasn't great.

And, you know, I think that too. But I think that the messed up part is when you don't let that go. You keep being angry. You continue to stay in that resentment place. How have you gotten over that? A lot of work. I'm asking because it's a person who's like a big resentment grudge holder. Are you?

You're a grudge holder? Yes. And it's a problem. Okay. Well, what I do is, first of all, I, really ascribe to the fact of how uncomfortable it makes me, and they don't even know. Yeah. You know, that part is like, my ego gets in.

But I was of the mind of like, but if I'm, if I'm visibly uncomfortable, they'll know. Right. Well, they kind of don't. I know. They still don't. They still don't. Yeah. So then you realize, oh, that's a waste of energy.

Yeah. And I'm just making myself miserable. And, you know, I'd like to blame other people. I'd like to blame all of you that fucked me over. But the truth is, it's done, it's gone. and I'm the one continuing to live in this place. Yeah. So there's that.

I mean, I don't like to be uncomfortable. I just don't like it. So I'm going to get over it. So do you see the first 25 years of your life as being uncomfortable? Or maybe it's 30, I don't know when you got sober age-wise, but do you see it as like doing something because you were uncomfortable, stopping it, and then just dealing with the discomfort? Yeah.

And then like, all right, I got it. Now I know what comfortable is. I figured it out. And I have to just try to stay as close to that as possible. Yeah, but it's a daily thing. It's not like, I mean, two days ago, I woke up in complete anxiety. Like, sort of free form, I don't even know why. I couldn't even tell you exactly what it was.

But it was one of those days where I was like, you know what, I'm not going to go out in the world today. I mean, I think there's a collective energy going on right now with what's happened in L.A., but I was just like, you know, some days are just like. that. The difference is now I know where to go with it, and it's not necessarily a therapist. I mean, I've done a lot of that, and I do dip in and out of that. But, you know, what I know is that the opposite of addiction is community, is connection. That's the opposite of it. So when my addiction kind of takes an obsessive thinking pattern, like I'm round and round and round on thing. I know what to do to get out of that, which is to talk to somebody about it, is to

write about it, is to just get it out of my body. Yeah. Yeah. So the process has been gradual and continues. I'm not fixed. I'm not done. And you don't judge your how, how, I should be better by now. Yeah, your progress. I don't. I mean, there's certain days when I feel, no, actually, that's not true. I mean, when I have a bad day, I'm the first to say I've had a bad day. And it doesn't matter how many years I've been in recovery. It just really is all, you know, I've learned more from people that have a week of recovery than people that have the amount of time that I do. So, um, no. And you, and you feel like you've probably gotten better at most aspects of your life? I would say so. Your youngest is how old? She's 18. Yeah. So you're still like, I know,

Pretty actively apparent. Yeah, she's going to go to college next year, and we're all nervous about it, but we know it'll be okay. She's out driving right now. Fuck, you're handling it pretty well. Well, I've done it twice already with two other kids. It's scary, though. It's definitely like, oh, wow, she's on the road.

Yeah. You know what helps? Just remember the dumbest person you've ever met has driven tens of thousands of miles without an accident? Yes, it's so true. It's the dumbest people drive. That's right. You're absolutely right.

No, she'll be. It's weirdly comforted. It is, it is. Just like flying. Like, did you ever have fear of flying? Never. Never. I just go right to sleep.

Wow, you're so lucky. Yeah. I, in that, yeah. Well, what's interesting is like you're, you still feel like you're not done at all. Oh, no. With any aspect of my life, I'm still very, like I love working. I would say the kind of work I want to do might be a little bit different now

I'd like to, I just spent three months in South Africa doing a show for Netflix called One Piece, which is amazing and everybody should watch it. Is it out? No, the second season will be out sometime at the end of this year. But the first season's out.

It was great. But it was a long time to be away from home. It was a really long time. So there are some choices that I'm thinking about that, you know, I'm not sure I want to to do that do you know what I mean go far away for long periods of time do you feel like I mean the owner I get the more I feel like what am I trying to prove well yeah I've gotten there I mean I always say to myself you know I'm famous enough I'm definitely like famous enough

you're famous every day it's yeah every day every time you leave their house somebody somebody recognized every single time so the worst she'll get us like where do I see her yeah we're no no I don't have any of that but I do have this real thirst to keep working. I like to work. I really, like this last job I did was a lot of sitting around, waiting, waiting, waiting. But when I'm actually on the job and it's time to say the lines and it's time to be there, I absolutely love it.

I have so much fun. Yeah. And I find it still interesting to me. I like the whole process of figuring out who. who this person is and where they, you know, all that. Because since I've started acting, now I've learned how to be an actor. That's what I feel like. Now you know how to do it.

Or you know. I feel, yeah, I feel much more, definitely more seasoned, you know. Like sometimes you talk to actors and they went to like years of training and all this stuff and I didn't know any of that. And but now I know some of it, which is nice. And you're good at it. I yeah what do you think of the totality of your life when you look back where you're like what what happened yeah um I think the totality of my life has been and still continues to be like

here's my big fear you want to know my my big big fear of course dying young dying before I'm I'm I've seen my children mature more before I have a big fear of it because my parents died when they were very young. So I think I have... How old were they? My mom was 47. My dad was 52. So young. Yeah. So I don't have a real record of anybody living long. So, and I think it's because this sounds so corny and I don't mean it to, but it's the sweetness of life that I feel like I don't want to miss. Because I guess to answer your question, the totality of everything. It's been pretty sweet. It's been, and I guess if you asked me 20 years ago,

I wouldn't say that. What would you have said? It's a slog. It's a slog. When you think of the sweet parts, what do you think of? I think of my family. I think of my husband. I think of my children. I think of my dogs. I think of, I don't, you know, it's like what they say. I don't think about the golden globe. I don't think about that. Yeah. I think about laying next to my husband and how wonderful that is. Or having my 18-year-old ball her eyes out because she's scared to go to college. You know, that kind of stuff where you're just like, oh, this moment may not happen again. She's illiterate, right?

That's the problem. She's terrified that everyone's going to find out at college that I cannot read. Please, someone teach me how to read. Total opposite. I'm so scared. people you know which yeah yeah i get yeah no she's a really smart kid she's got no she's the opposite of okay but that's what i mean it's sort of like i think i don't know if you have this experience but as the i just um i guess maybe it's from all these years of living of trying to

live present like always trying to be present now i'm actually i have big moments of real presence and i'm just like oh man i love this yeah it's hard. I mean, it's, I just, I mean, I, when I tell you, I've been thinking about presence, like, in the last four days, I'm not, like, in a more serious way than I've ever thought of it. In terms of, I just realized, like, I'm constantly, I'm like a newscaster. It's like, let's go to memory over it. Now, let's go to Neal over in bad memory. Neil, take it away. And I, Neil takes it away for hours. And then I'll go to like, let's go to Neal. Let's go to Neal. in the future go ahead and catastrophize Neil and then I'm there for for another several hours and then it's then I got to eat and go to sleep right and it's a way it's like I'm wait I'm I don't want to I'm wasting my life kind of well you're scaring yourself you're completely scaring yourself I mean the real truth is that anything out of the present moment is not real none of it's real yeah none of it so I had somebody once tell me like

Like, if you're going to tell yourself scary stories or stories that are false, make them good stories. Tell yourself, you know, all that shit that you're afraid of in the future, which I have it too. I have it too. Like, you know, everything's going to go away. Everybody's, nobody's going to like me again. But I'll never work again.

When that tape starts playing, I'll just kind of turn it on its head because none of it's true. Yeah. So why not say, oh, the most abundant time of my life is about to happen? Oh, I'm going to, you know, be successful as a grandparent because I know I'm going to be around for grandchildren. I mean, I don't know if that's real either, but better than my scenario, exactly, why not? But it's a discipline. It's definitely a practice to shift your perception to those thoughts. And if you're anybody that has been either exposed to alcoholism, is an alcoholic rate, whatever it is,

I do believe that that other shoe's going to drop mentality is the thing. That is kind of the trigger. That's the deal. And so it's just a constant, it's a constant need, but it's really gratifying to know that you can bring yourself back to where your feet are. To me, it's extremely gratifying. It is. It's just, it's like.

It's like meditation. It's like anything where it's like it's hard. It's a hard thing to stay in the present. There's really good tricks. You know, the thing we, you know, talking to somebody else about their problems is a great trick. Yeah. To get yourself back to yourself. Tell me about it.

It's so good. And lucrative. There's some ads. You can sell ads. Yeah. So that's really good. And, you know, making your bed is always a good one for me. That's funny.

Like doing household chores. Like just to shut my brain up. Just to like, I think I'll go wash the dishes. I think I'll clean out my closet. I think I'll, oh yeah, I didn't make the bed yet. I got to go make my bed. You know, that kind of shit. Great.

Simple. All right. Well, I always knew you're great. And I think this proves it. I think I've just like spilled. No, you're fantastic. Am I okay? You've been great.

You've been great since 88, 89. You've stayed great. I always knew you're great. I heard you like three mics. years ago, and I was like, I knew I liked that lady. I fucking knew it. Katie Segal, ladies gentlemen, isn't she great? I feel the same

about you, by the way. I've watched all your specials. So, I'm a fan. Thank you, my dear. I'm a fan. Thank you. Thank you. Mommy