Blocks w/ Neal Brennan - Natasha Lyonne

Episode Date: March 9, 2023

Neal Brennan interviews Natasha Lyonne (Poker Face, Russian Doll, Orange is the New Black + much more) about the things that make her feel lonely, isolated, and like something's wrong - and how she is persevering despite these blocks. Natasha's Blocks: 00:00 Intro 03:17 Drugs 16:21 Aging 22:20 Work 43:24 Comparison 56:55 Hustler Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234 Theme music by Electric Guest (unreleased). Edited by Will Hagle YouTube Subscribe: https://bit.ly/2Lf6yvE Audio Subscribe: https://link.chtbl.com/blocks?sid=yt SPONSORS: FitBod: https://fitbod.me/neal for 25% off your membership Miracle: https://trymiracle.com/neal for 40% off and 3 free towels Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm Neil Brennan. I have a podcast that you're watching. I have a Netflix special called Blocks where I talk about the things that make me feel like something's wrong with me, crazy, isolated. And then my friend Jimmy Carr had the idea to have your friends come on and ask them what their blocks are. And that way everybody grows. The person who reveals their blocks, the viewer who feels less alone in the world. People love it. We shame, shame. It's forced intimacy. That's a good metaphor for the show.

And my guest today is the great Natasha Lyonne. Here's what I'd also like to say about Natasha Lyonne. You're not going to speak. I'm just going to speak about you. That fine we talked about this four months ago you're the only person who has followed up about doing it so what i'm trying to say is you didn't have to you could have gotten away with not you followed up you're a good friend and person and i i think it's safe to say we just fuck with each other we do we fuck with each other yeah that's it uh i don't remember where we met but we we did meet did we though i think it's possible

that we've actually never met like i realize we know each other now yeah here's what i'm going to say about you you're objectively interesting and I've never encouraged anyone to write a book or do like a single person show. I want it for you. Now you're, you fucked up with all these TV shows, but you've got a lucrative Broadway. You know how lucrative Broadway is. That's where the money is. You've got a very lucrative future ahead of you. They say that at Marvel and Broadway.

Yeah. That's what they say in our business. Okay. So I don't even know if you did the homework where you come with the things that make you feel crazy. You know what I did? I saw the text and then I did other things. I, and I thought this is something I should look at. You're also someone who faced many challenges in life and has overcome all of them. Most of them, some of them, arguably none of them, or yes,

some are in remission. Some of your problems. I don't even know about that. I just, I think I just was transparent enough that somehow they became palatable because they were relatable. Okay. You had like a career. Here's how,

this is what it looked like from the outside. To you, by the way. Doing good. Yes, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah i speak for everyone well i would say you probably speak for a type a person who is not totally you know interested in other words now maybe i'm i sort of seem interesting or something but i would say back then there were people that already knew me well then, I would say. But I don't feel like I'm an ambulance chaser. I saw Slums of Beverly Hills in the theater. Okay. What else do you need? That's it. Okay, now I'm willing to listen.

You've opened my mind. In the theater. I'm not someone of these like, she's streaming. Here's my point, but you're a thoughtful person. So I want to know the things that you find challenging. Is it safe to say you're sober? I don't really like to, I think a lot of people do, but I just feel like my take is, you know, I don't want to be like an advertisement for anything. I just think that life is so tricky that you just never know. So I just don't want anyone, I try to be open about my experiences.

Anyway, yeah, I mean, I certainly don't, I certainly was somebody who was, you know, notorious and infamous for getting high. And obviously that's not my lifestyle anymore. But I definitely, I definitely identify with that typology of person or something. I don't know that, you know, like the brain ever changes or the way you hear music or something really changes. So in that sense, it's always sort of like, in other words, I'm somebody who still needs to be kind of like walking these streets at 5 a.m. Sort of, you know, just thinking thoughts in the middle of the night, almost like alone. And, you know, or within the company of strangers. you know, or within the company of strangers.

And just to say, and in that sense, I don't know that I'm fully, you know, it's like I'm a changed person in terms of I'm not, I'm no longer like self-destructive in these same sort of violent ways that land you in, you know, hospitals and DUIs and that kind of a thing. When you think about that being like that, is it about self-acceptance? Is it about you feel odd?

Like, do you ever think about like your motives for, because you're like a legit interesting, I don't know anyone that's kind of like you. Thank you. The other thing that's so weird is, I don't know if you're getting older, but I've been getting older. So what's happening now is all this kind of shenanigans.

When we sort of like, even when my mind sort of tells me a story about myself, it's so, you know, connected to this like great event that are like my years as a junkie and really in the sort of like history of that timeline that's now like a blip in the axis of you know what i mean there's like sort of 25 years before now there's like almost you know 20 years later which is weird because i'm 22 but it's it's sort of weird because it that it's such a sort of seminal event, but I think, so in a way, I no longer see it as being so much about drugs and alcohol per se, but more almost like I was at Tisch, like a film and philosophy double major. I was like, skipped my senior year of high school. So I was there by the time I was like 16 years old. And in that time, I was already sort of a philosophy major. Like those were my interests.

At 16. Yeah. And I think that the truth of my story was more like I'd seen so much, you know, fucked up shit as a kid, alcoholic, crazy parents and that kind of a thing. And I'd already been a child actor. I was never a child star. And, uh, and I think probably because of like my- And you never will be. Again. Do you hear me? And God damn it. Not because of like my- And you never will be. Again. Do you hear me? And God damn it. Not if you keep this- Unless.

Silling itself. And I think probably because I always have like big hair and like, you know, this personality or whatever, my accent, it seems like I'm such a, an extrovert, you know, but in fact, I think probably as a kid, it was more that I was cataloging things like a witness, sort of more like a, and maybe it was just like a coping mechanism, but was more that I was cataloging things like a witness, sort of more like a, and maybe it was just like a coping mechanism, but almost more like a writer or a filmmaker. Like I was sort of watching vignettes because they were weird and traumatizing and fucked up. And there'd be like 60s music blasting from these crazy parents. So I would sort of see them as sequences and had

like an imagination because I was already in the language of sort of like on camera, we make, you know, we sort of tell stories. And I did, I got sort of, you know, famous like American Pie, Slums of Beverly Hills. And then I sort of like dropped out of college and sort of aggressively like dropped out of that life because I found it to be not where it was at on this very sort of like teenage, almost like Jack Kerouac, Bukowski level that I was like, what is this thing? Like the top of the mountain is just, you know, like fame and like sycophants and free clothes. And what the fuck is this? You know, like that's where, and you know, my parents had put me in that business.

And so it just didn't add up. And I don't think I had the sort of proper support network to say, you know, no, this is just an aspect of self. I was very entangled with like the artist's trip of, you know, either this is a substantive life or it's not. So I think I really went under into like this sort of belly of the beast of to see how the other half live

in a way that was very like pseudo-intellectual teenager who was obsessed with a certain kind of literature that is traditionally very male, lone wolf, like expat. I want to see what it's like, sort of, you know, boozy under the skin. And it's just- Non-filter cigarettes. And then I think almost like a narc who went in too deep.

It was like the nature of addiction. So you really look back on it like almost you were just like, I'm going to see what this is like just for a second. Not even for a second. I was like this trip of like this sort of ego trip of, I kind of, I did it. You know what I mean? Congratulations, American Pie and magazines. And as you said, American Pie,

I remember thinking when I saw you, that you were in it, I was surprised you did it. Yeah. I was like, I was surprised they got you. I was like, they got Natasha Lyonne. Wow. Like the good for them.

And I was like, I didn't, I just thought you were a cool indie yeah person and i think probably i was just sort of confused like sort of like now i it's it's very fun being you know a girl just because it's sort of like time has caught up or something i couldn't agree more the women in in their thirties are unlike, like I'll meet girls and I'll be like, you know, women couldn't be like you 20 years ago. Then it was more, I just think,

I was sort of like, what is this whole gig? You know, and anyway, so I think like a narc that was in too deep, I sort of, you know, drugs are catching. So I kind of like, you know, if you're weak. Yeah. And, and then it was sort of like the, the journey out was really the dark nights of the soul because it was not like, she's back. You know what I mean? It was a whole fucking extravaganza of, you know, you better go on this spiritual quest because you've got nothing else,

kid. Like you, that was really where I saw that I had burnt down the whole house. And then now it's like, I spent almost 20 years sort of rebuilding and, but almost then it was more like a choice to kind of get back into all these things. So all the relationships sort of changed of, you know, people like, you know, you know, Maya Rudolph and Amy Poehler that I knew back then, it was suddenly like Amy and I were co-creating a show or Maya and I were like making a production company or it just felt more,

okay, there's a different way to do this whole game that makes sense for someone like me and that all that experience isn't wasted. But anyway, just to say that it's sort of, it's weird now looking back at all that stuff and the language in which you have to talk about it to make it make sense, sort of, you know, like season one of Orange is the New Black,

I had to sort of talk about it in a way that would be, you know be palatable to people, sort of re-accepting that. It's just, it's all so weird when you talk about the nature of humanity and how we don't fully give ourselves like the full breadth of the human experience is all I mean.

I say all that only knowing that we know each other and part of the excitement of you doing this is that you're somebody who does see things that way. So that's all. So that was a thank you. Yeah, kind of. I'm kidding. No, no, no. But I'm what I, as I hear you tell that story, part of me is, is thinking like, was that section of your life and that, that arc, is it almost not inevitable in terms of who you were when you were 10? Like this immutable Leon soul, like you had the same voice when you were, when I became aware of you, which is you're 19 or so. I don't know how old you were when you did Slums of Beverly Hills. Like you were always this sort of anomaly, this like weird, like where they find her.

It's crazy how the things that are like such a problem in your life become all the things that are like the sort of gifts of your life? Yeah, all the bugs become features. Yeah. It's just, it's such a funny thing that, that like more than anything, I think that's like my grandiose dream to like impart to other young girls who are sort of like seen as weird in a narrow viewpoint is like that reminder that all that, you know, it's just that stuff you always hear of like all that stuff that makes

you an outsider is the stuff that later, if you can just withstand the discomfort of it, sort of becomes the stuff that suddenly that that's the reason you're writing and directing and all this, you have stuff in a weird way. So it's like, I wouldn't wish that discomfort on my kid self, but I do feel like weirdly what allowed me to survive was this weird relationship where it was like my job to protect her or something. And like in this very, you know,

bizarre inner child sort of dialectic where I'm always watching out for her because like nobody else was, you know, and making sure that she was okay. Were you her only child? I have an older brother. Okay, was he around? He was around.

Now I haven't seen him for years, but yeah, he was around. Okay. So, but you feel like you were in some ways alone? Yeah. By the time I was like 15, I was out of the house. Yeah. It was just a chaotic sort of home environment. So I definitely think I had this real relationship with like self that would be echoed, like even with Poker Face or something, or even in writing Russian novels. I always really identified with the style of noir and like a Philip Marlowe figure because they have that sort of inside, outside sort of like meta narrative experience of what they're witnessing.

It's like, I've been through some stuff, don't worry about it. Yeah, and they're kind of like walking through these weird pockets that I think I always loved of like the after, after, after party, but they're not fully in the room. They're more like witnessing the weird shit and they're like, oh, I see there's some, you know, ketamine going on over there. And it's like, they're doing a bump, but they're sort of in the experience of thinking about the doing the bump as the music is playing not sort of like lost in the sauce yeah this is crazy like i love that about sort of detectives and noir yeah yeah and they're always troubled in a vague way yeah that we don't really get the full story on we reference it they hook up with people but it's more like a saucy broad walks across a room.

She seems damaged and they kind of have some interactions, but later she's, you know, she killed her husband. So of course that didn't work out. You know what I mean? Yeah. And like they have a shorthand quickly. You seemed like that. You always seemed like that to me as just a viewer didn't know

but you didn't know anyone who knew you and that's what you seemed like and it is funny that the world caught up and you're but you don't you uh you're not bitter about that there's not in many ways i think the thing i'm bitter about uh you know which is why i'm like uh make russian all the way i do obviously and you know continue to make it like weirder and more challenging and all these things is i'm just bitter about the nature of mortality and the concept of time itself like it's such a you know people have been you know saying it for years. It's always important to bring up Woody Allen at some point in modern times, but it's sort of like-

I'm better every day. You know, the only problem with aging, whatever, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but obviously is sort of death itself. It just means that death is coming. So it's sort of, I love getting older. It's great. Like I've also, you know, like never looked better or felt better or sort of like, like had more fun with boys or my friends or kind of, you know, showbiz.

It all becomes sort of right-sized in a way of, it's just not that, it's not as much of a head trip, you know? It's kind of like- It doesn't mean as much. Whatever. It didn't pan out. You hooked up and next, you know? Like, it's just not that weird anymore.

And it's just so weird that as you finally catch on. Your body's totally deteriorating and betraying you. It's just so dark. And that's what I'm bitter about. Like, I'm not, in other words, it's sort of of no consequence that, like, I'm grateful that people caught up at all. of no consequence that like, I'm grateful that people caught up at all. And I'm grateful in the spirit of for so many other women are sort of like oddballs that sort of are now in the zeitgeist. I'm grateful that that's the moment. But the bummer is like, how much time do you have left to kind of artistically sort of, you know, capitalize on it, meaning how many things can you make

before that window is shut? Because you can't get up and down the subway stairs as well. Like you can't crush all those night shoots and pull all those fucking all-nighters. Culture is accepting people like you more and me less, whatever similar in a similar way and but i would also say you're accepting yourself more you know what i mean like you're on the same trajectory in a weird way where it's like time is passing and you're like oh you i can do this stuff now but you also like oh i

thought i was a writer yeah at the same like you think i'm a writer i kind I thought I was a writer. Yeah. At the same, like, you think I'm a writer? I kind of think I'm a writer too. Thanks for the opportunity. Let's all do this. And your, our bodies are deteriorating. I mean, we're doing good. I mean, we look, honestly, we look great. Let's be honest.

I think we deserve, we deserve. I just don't understand why we can't pause here. Like have a nice long pause. We're where also everybody could just calm the fuck down and be like, let's right now, instead of just like rushing to make more things and feeling the anxiety of that. Like, what if we just were able to go get some more life experiences and then come back to exactly this moment and make those same things, all those projects we want to do, but just with a little bit more like on seventies time, you know, where like time stretches. Do you ever, there's a quote about, somebody said a quote about the seventies that in, in showbiz, you would do one thing a day. Like I called the East Coast. Yeah.

You were done. That's it. That's all you had to do. And they made like 10 things. Yeah. But they were great. And the people, a lot of them overdosed. Whatever.

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Yeah. And do you like it? Cause it, it's, you work more than I would like, I think. Then I, I think you work more than I could bear,

uh, to be, I wouldn't want to be him. Interesting. Cause I feel like you work so much. No, I don't work that much. I really don't.

Like I, I do. I was doing that show. That was a couple hours a night. You were nice enough to come to the show. Thank you for coming. The show was great, but you also had to write that whole thing. Yeah, I had to write it.

There was stuff. And then as you were writing it, you were sort of like, there was something else going on simultaneously. I was touring. And now you're doing this. Yeah, but this is almost nothing. I feel like you're always doing five things. I'm not passive,'t i don't have

two series right maybe because you know fred armisen so well you think that's normal for sure being with fred all those years i think there was an element of like you know i'm gonna be like you dad like first of all i mean i think we just so great so there was a father you saw him as a father no it was more just in the sense of like you know, I'm going to be like you, dad. Like, first of all, I mean, I think we just- So great. Love each other. So there was a father, you saw him as a father. No, it was more just in the sense of like, like we love each other so much. I mean, Fred and I are still like, you know,

we text every day. I mean, it makes sense. Like, you know, it's a long time to have a relationship. How long was it? Like seven and a half years. And we really like love each other. You know, we still have plots together and- Like plots for pogrevis no like plots like murder plots no like where we're gonna be buried so we can be you know reunited down the line in the afterlife and we really really love each other

and and but i do think it was sort of like oh okay so that's what this household is, is we just kind of are always doing stuff. We're always on planes. We're always like, you know, everything. We're just like, we're always doing a million different projects. That's kind of the vibe. And it's very fun. It just feels like, it feels very alive. Like in a weird way, it occurs to me also that part of what I love so much about Fred and Maya is that, you know, they're musical geniuses also. So it's a little bit like they're hearing the world instead of sort of more like task oriented workhorses. Like they're a little bit more like, ah, and there's another sound of another idea. And like, they kind of go where, where it's warm a little bit, like artistically. And I think that I was like, oh, that's a fun way to be. And more than anything,

I think it's always for me about like hanging out in a very childlike sense of even, you know, with Malaney or something, or, you know, because I've like texted you about work over the years and there's a spirit to it. That's more like, oh, you know, what would be fun is like to play with Neil in this way because you're so quick and so you know odd that like the idea that I can like latch on to your brain and then we can play on a text chain that's going to go on for like you know 30 minutes to not be heard from for another two months to then return to I think it's like I love that that I'm so hot for. Yeah. That's one of my favorite things in life. Yeah. It's just funny. And then it gets like circuitous and then it gets very deep. And all of a sudden it's like, we're talking about life itself and it's back to bits. Now it's like

photos and it's, do you know what I mean? And then it's like an unmaterialized plan or something. And I think it's really that sort of like friendship, childlike sort of connection. That is the reason I have so many projects going. You're also lucky, I'll say, because like the people, my friendship showbiz stuff has been successful, but very combustible.

Interesting. And so I have mixed feelings about it. Yeah. Like I love a teammate. Yeah. I love, I call it like living, like we're going to sleep in bunk beds, right? Yeah. That's how I feel about it. Yeah. And, but I can't find quite the right bunkie situation and, or they just end whatever for a bunch of different reasons. So I'm envious of that, in that you found people. And I don't know, I think I know Amy the best of those three. Yeah.

But they're all very good people. But that speaks to your character as well. Well, and it's also like, now with Ryan, what's so interesting is... Ryan Johnson, they do a show called Poker Face. It's streaming now on Peacock. On Peacock. Peacock. On Peacock. On Peacock. Uh, Peacock. On Peacock.

On Peacock. Peacock. Peacock. Peacock. Peacock. Peacock. Peacock. Peacock. Peacock.

Peacock. Peacock. Peacock. Uh, and, you know, what was interesting about Ryan was like, oh my God, this is another one in such a sort of like, you know, bizarre shape only because he was so auteur and together and sort of like blue chip official. Yeah. And the idea that he was kind of coming into this sort of mix of like Ryan and I have now like a friendship that's like sparky like I have. I will say. I have now like a friendship that's like sparky. Like I have,

I will say me and, and, and Maya and Fred, I'm like, we just want to play together. And then it's like, okay, what about Nick Nolte? Okay.

Wait, Louis, Louis, it must feel like a weird hallucination. Even like the credits. I was like, they did the fucking credits from the seventies. Yeah.

The question I wanted to ask you is like, how do you do it without commenting? Like performance wise, how do you convince people to say like, I have a code red without like being airplane about it? Do you have to like convince anyone? Does anyone do it wrong the first take? Like in my fantasy, I could sort of like walk around doing all these interviews and stuff,

just sort of Salvador Dali style, like meaning as eccentric as possible. And sometimes I think, you know, I do that and maybe to my own detriment or something. Because the truth is, is, you know, I'm very intense workaholic perfectionist obsessive. And I have such a like deep respect for the lineage of filmmaking that I come at things from like a very serious approach. So in other words, what's so fun about someone like Ryan is that he obviously does too. Then what's really fun is you get to sort of like, if you come from that place of sort of obsessive meticulousness, then you get to sort of turn it on its head in all these fun ways. But just to say, for example, with something like Poker Face, like Sam Rockwell at some point gave me his acting coach and he was like, you know,

you're going to be a New York actor. Cause I've never taken an acting lesson in my life. I was just sort of winging it. And as I started doing more and more things, like where I really- Seemed like you'd taken some. No. And where I really got into,

and I was always, I was like a film major, not an act, not a drama. So where I really got into it was like the second season of Russian Doll. I really got into it from- You're like, all right, they picked it up. I should take- No, if I'm going to direct all these people

when I'm in the scenes, I would sit there with a laptop rewriting with the acting coach as we went through all the other characters' sort of motives and stuff to just check out that they were all sort of like vouchsafed, like knock on all the walls of their motives and shit too,

all in an effort that when you get there, it can be loose, you know? So his name's Terry Knickerbocker. So it was like when, you know, finally it was like Ryan and I had a bunch of conversations. Okay. It'd be so fun to do this thing. Ryan writes this gorgeous script that feels like a love letter of, you know, it's like a friend saying, hey, let's really do this. Let's go into the studio. I wrote the fucking song. You know what I mean? Like it's like very moving and it was so good. And then I sort of was like, you know, the big job here is how can you make it seem sort of second skin enough that you're creating the illusion of, oh, that's just, you know, that's Natasha. That's her thing. That's who she is.

But, you know, back of that, you're so locked in that, in fact, you're quite different than the motives of, you know, Nadia or the chick from Orange is the New Black. And really has nothing to do with me myself, who obviously is not a time traveler, a prisoner or a detective. Do you know what I mean? Maybe. I'm just saying that there was a lot of just like hours of hard labor, writing down notes, trying it like so that, you know, I like I'm very like a memorized person who's like intensely like ellipses off book such that when you get there, it can feel all like loose improv, winging it. feel all like loose improv winging it you know i just sort of have a belief that and i'm the same way when i'm like you know directing it's got to all be just you know i just want everything sort of like frame to frame like references i want to know exactly you know what our plans are. You wing it with like, but after you've done it. Yeah. Near militaristically.

I just like, you know, like sort of storyboarding exactly so that you can, you know, figure out what's going to marry well to what in the cut and like what you really need. And then of course there's space because you're so organized that, you know, if you become inspired by like, you know, holy shit, fucking Nick Nolte is just, you know,

crushing this, let's add on. But there's a plan there. I think in general, I'm very like work horsey like things to be that way. Okay. You mentioned work horse. You're a horse. We all see you as a horse.

And you finally have the hair. Perfect. Thank you. Workaholism, is that a real ism? Maybe. You know what I mean? Like, it's clearly like there's a hierarchy of levels of destruction. And it's like, is working all that much, is it avoidant?

Or is it like, oh, I don't know. You know, that's why I'm saying like when you say something like sober, I all that much is it avoidant or is it like oh you know that's why i'm saying like when you say something like sober i'm like is it you know like of course yeah like that's great i don't shoot heroin you know obviously that otherwise how would i get all this done i guess but at the same time like where does it go what is it it is, you know, trouble spot of personhood is that the reason that at like, you know, four in the morning, I'm still sort of like in the notes section being like, oh, that's an interesting idea. Let me get back to that tomorrow or kind of. Probably from 10 years, eight years old.

Yeah. I just, I just think that's, it's almost like that's my safe place. It's like, well, if I just go to a third location, you know what I mean? Which is not really- Not here. It's not here. Not where I am. And it's not there.

It's in this third space, which is imagination lane, which is much more fun when it's not alone. And then there, there is no, you know what I mean? So in a weird way it is, it's like you're using, you know, inspiration and collaboration and ideas as, you know, a drug for lack of a better term because it's sort of an altered state, right? Like even the stakes of, you know, you're on set,

you're not gonna get the shot, you're running out of time, time is money and you know what I mean? Like that is, it's sort of like the focus that kind of comes in and you feel like Bob Fosse. And, you know, of course Fosse's on, you know, a lot of, you know, speed to get him there and black beauties and what have you. And jump cuts. We've seen the movie. You can sort of, you know, lock into this sort of like hyper-focused state that feels sort of third space. And I do think that I'm probably more hooked on that sound or something like that white noise sound of like hearing the click, to put it in cat on a hot tin roof terms,

than I am, like, I don't know that I'm so interested in, you know, ambition, ego, money. Like, all that stuff is sort of like perks. You know what I mean? Well, that's what I wonder. It's more about hearing the click, I think. Yeah, what is it? Because you're probably to be so, like, you're making great money.

You know what I mean? Not as much as some people. Of course. Every single person can say that. Yeah. Including the richest man on earth. It's like, well, if I, that one thing, they've then fucked me up. It's like, everyone's, there's, someone's always doing better.

But for you, for what your needs are. I mean, define needs, you know? Because, you know, I don't want to be a dick, but I need a yacht. Yeah. You do have- I mean i'm yeah i'm doing great and um so it is about like the thrill or the thrill of the kill for sure it's definitely yeah more than that it's it's sort of like like the sparkiness of it it genuinely like makes me happy like when we we're, you and I are texting and something makes you laugh. And I think of you as just like, you know, you're just like a high level professional. If I can make you laugh, that makes me feel like a certain, you know what I mean?

Like I get a certain rush from it of like, I've sparked you and now and i i just like it it's almost that's what i mean it's more it's more like music in a way than it is another thing it's more like ha you know uh and i would say also that's what's so addictive about uh comedy for me and in general is it feels very much like third location altered state of just its own language and its own rhythm. And that like, in that, if you're genuinely like cracking up, it's so silly and surreal that it actually like you're, you're nowhere in that moment. Yeah. And I, I like that sort of outer body experience wherever I can catch it. I like that sort of outer body experience wherever I can catch it.

Yeah. I mean, that's, I've never heard it said that way, but that is like the transcendence of like. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah. Like I can feel it in other places. Like sometimes if I'm in the edit and, you know, we're cutting a scene and then it's like,

you put a certain piece of music, like when, you know, we put like Bela Lugosi's dead over this sequence in in Russian all and it was just like like I felt like my body sort of like drop out of like this was it you know what I mean like this is this is the feeling I needed and seeing it was so sort of like relaxing like I felt my body calm down or like I remember like Fred and I, one time in the middle of the night, like we heard a sound in the house, you know? And it was, for some reason,

the next thing I know we were like doubled over, like laughing hysterically while sort of half asleep. And I was like, that's also like, I can feel my body really calm down or something, you know? And, and then there's also like that weird, like identification of like moments when we've texted and, you know, you said something like, oh, you should, you should write that down or something. It's almost like I can feel my blood pressure drop of like, oh, so that wasn't just, you know, like the kid in me is like, oh, that's not my imagination. Right. Like it's sort of being co-signed as a shared, we're having a shared

thing about like that, that impulse you had for that song or that shot or that slow zoom or, you know, like being with this person or, you know what I mean? Like it's sort of like it might, I feel like, oh, I'm in the right place in the right time as a human being who's felt so often, like I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like in those moments I can drop it in. I'm like, oh, that's what they mean by almost like gratitude, humility, like these big concepts

is that thing of, oh, life is weird, but you can have these moments that sort of indicate everything is correct. I remember childhood as just terrifying. Yeah. A lot of it. And out of control. And just not fair. And like, you're wrong.

You're wrong about this world. I don't know how I know that or why I think that, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong. And then if you can put yourself, maybe it's aging, maybe it's a bunch of shit, but like that's what I was saying earlier is like you stuck with it and all of your suspicions about yourself

that you couldn't even verbalize were correct like to get super meta about it like you have that moment with fred and it's like you were supposed to have it not even like everything in your life was leading up to that but a bit of like, I was, this is perfect. This is like, I form a purpose. That's like,

what do you mean? My purpose is to giggle with friends in the middle of the night. But like, yeah, kind of. I mean, look, I I'm very sort of quantum physics out just because I'm a curious person,

I guess. And I, quantum physics out just because I'm a curious person, I guess. And I, I find it to be sort of relaxing that it's this third thing that I don't know. I don't understand. Like if my love language is like cinema of the seventies or something, and that's what like flows through my bones, it's, there's something, I don't know how bones work, but there's, this is really just from doing too much psychedelics as a kid, married with sort of like, you know, like trauma child, you know, too much sort of like trauma and then psychedelics they happen in this past present future where were they and where was I in this like as I was alive in these lowest moments could I have pictured you know like I would feel that when I would you know like walk on set rushing on I'm like you know I

have all these jobs and it feels almost like you know like a stressed out like Charlie Chaplin Lou Reed or something like and i'm like oh but this is exactly where the fuck i'm supposed to be like holy shit this is a-okay even as i'm like absolutely let's go the budget the budget like yeah and somehow i'm very calm and like my my wish for you know like other people that are like suffering as I still do, you know, like in, like, I just, I have to wonder like how much dark nights of the soul are just normal. And we make them seem like they're not normal. But of course they exist because it's a rat race and you die in the end. So how could it.

How bright could the not be in a fucking head trip all the time being like, so I have to work and like fuck only one person and then to try to make money to then stay in shape to then die? What the fuck is happening? Like, of course it's a head trip, but it's almost like, like there's so much discomfort you got to get through to be like, almost like restored to the moment. You know, like I fred like a decade before we started dating it's almost funny in other words in that sense i guess i mean of like this idea of like time's arrow of why can i remember the past but i can't remember the future but it's sort of like you know it's very like rocky erickson like i've always been here before you know what i mean like we already knew each know, like they say that thing of you've probably already met the person, you know,

you're going to marry or something. Like, you just don't realize that it was like the guy to the left, like when they widen out Rashomon style and oh, they were fucking over there. So-and-so's second cousin who was dating this person 20 years ago. And like your true romance and the actual, your real child is like, you know, a third divorce, their stepkid. You know what I mean? Like life is this weird game where you just got to be on this sort of like psychedelic ride of, you know, highs and lows. It's weird. And, you know, show business, certainly like chips are up, chips are down. Nobody cares.

You're the same person and nobody cares. You can't get arrested. And suddenly you're in the zeitgeist and then you're out again. We need you to do two shows. And you're just like, okay. And I mean, my Twitter is very much like, God god where'd she come from like she's so neat what a weird voice and i'm like hey guys like it's been like almost 40 years okay all right thank you yeah grateful to be here on genu yeah you know yes take the gift yeah take it and literally don't

think about it even a little bit who gives a fuck? You said something about comparison. And I was talking to somebody else today where it was like comparison, it's the thief of joy, right? Eleanor, I wrote it, I made that up. Eleanor Roosevelt, it's hers. So, but it's also comparison is the, it's also a gift when you're talking about humanity. Not, it's literally the purpose of this is like, what's it like over there in that body?

How is the experience? And then you go, you text me something. I go, that's fucking funny. You should write that down. And you're like, that's kind of comparison. You know what I mean? It's shared experience, but a shared experience is basically like,

I did this and this was the result. And someone goes, I did this and that was the same. You know what I mean? It's like beautiful, but we miss, it's often misused just to make ourselves miserable. It is a shame that like, yeah, it's basically a shame that life isn't more pure and that we're also sick like we're also sick with this you know distortion of

you know why does this motherfucker have what i want and like you know i think i want yeah that why are they dating that person why do they get to look like that why are they getting that money why do they have that job why don't they have to have these responsibilities? It's such a wasted life. I think about that a lot. And more and more, now that I'm getting older, I'm like, God, how much life have I wasted beating the shit out of myself for all these things that just fucking didn't matter? You know what I mean? A third, probably. It's just quite a waste of a life. Like, yeah, there's like certain things I'll just never be. You know what I mean?

And like, also like I'll never be certain people's type and I'll never be a certain, you know, yeah, just like rather than go where it's warm and like, you know, okay, maybe this sort of, it's kind of cozy over here. It's always, for some reason, it feels like the fantasy is always, I want those people who don't want me to want me, you know, whether that's romantic, professional, whatever. And what, it's so dark, you know what I mean? It's so dark that we're all gonna like get to our deathbeds and be like, so that's what I spent my time here doing. Like beating the shit out of myself for not being X, Y, Z, instead of, you know,

just being cool with what I was and making the best of that. How'd you stop doing it? I don't know that I have, like. I mean, the last time I can remember you doing it is when I said you're making great money and you said not as good as some that was a long time ago

that was easily three and a half minutes ago I think I meant a little bit like look I mean I'm you know objectively crushing and I say that as somebody who's literally like you know somebody who's not crushed it spent times in the tents in downtown LA

and fucking like looked under, you know, like cushions. And, uh, you know, I've like, I have a lot of context for crushing and not crushing, you know what I mean? And that's like a high, low experience. Uh, what I mean is it's interesting that there always seems like there's a level of generic that gets the the big prize kind of where it's just so can't wait to give it away and yeah anybody who's a little bit more specific it's just another it's on the scale of where yes kind of like you're not making as much as j-Lo or whatever. You know, and by the way, like I'm sort of into her trip.

I'm just sort of saying it's a curiosity that, and I think that's been going on since the dawn of time. Of course. You know, it's like, I'm doing about as well as somebody can possibly do who also is still, you know, oddly fringe. Like I've never been this mainstream and it's sort of, you know, curious because I just, I haven't, I haven't had to do that much to change in a way.

The thought that occurred to me as you were talking was like, it's like we have a hard time even accepting our own dreams. You were supposed to be this. you were supposed to be this and you spent so much time being like i want to be it but i don't i also don't want to be it you wanted to be something else you know what i mean or you wouldn't have been tortured it's like i want to do arenas i'm never gonna doas. I probably wouldn't even like doing them. Because charisma, age, subject matter, affability, just like, it's fine. But I still am like, oh, my life's fucking great. Yeah. So I hear you comparing yourself.

And I hope that at some point we can stop. I know. It's just, it's an interesting thing. Like I often think, is it, is it ambition? And I don't know that it is. I think increasingly, like I saw, you know, Janelle Monae give this sort of like you know acceptance speech and she was sort of like talking to young girls who were outsiders and like this whole thing she was like and I'm doing this and just so you know and I was I was very moved because I was like oh this is

my trip sort of well articulated because she's sort of like more, um, verbal or just sort of, uh, she, she was more articulate, almost like she was less ashamed about the purity of what, you know, just the dream. Like she was like, this is, this is what this is about. And for me, I do think that I have a lot of things make make me very mad in terms of like who we decide is, you know, worthy or not worthy. Or just the idea, like when we do games, like, hey, you're allowed to get gay married or you're not allowed to get gay married. And I'm like, who the fuck are you? Right? Like, who are you that you think you get to grant someone permission for equal existence? That's like a core issue. Clarence Thomas. The history of humanity. And sometimes are, yes.

And so it's sort of like, for me, if you're asking me about my dropping out of society as like a teenager who is sort of angry a lot of it was about not being able to process sort of the injustice of the game there was also nowhere for you to be sure relative to now whereas janelle monae as you said that i thought about fiona apples yeah speech at the vmass in 1996 or seven. And then she gets kind of ostracized for, and looking back, it's pretty innocuous. Exactly.

But it was like, what? Like, don't even talk like that. Yeah, and it was a lot like, the weird thing about being sort of like a young girl was like, I remember doingard stern for uh american pie and it was like me and tara reed and allison hannigan and i think i thought oh this will be fun because he'll quickly realize that we're sort of like same same sandwich you know what i mean and it'll be we'll have a little bit of banter and then you know it'll get kind of dirty and then I'll get the fuck out of there. And instead it was sort of, this blonde chick isue in the nineties is there wasn't

space for, nobody wanted you to meet them at their level. It was more like, so I'm, I'm grateful that that's. Nobody was even going to the level, by the way, the most lasting relic of that entire era, more so than the movie is you doing the jerk off joke on Jay Leno, which comes into my Instagram once a week, and I welcome it. Well, thanks. I mean... That's you, by the way. That feels like you.

Yeah. I mean, it's very cool also. Like Jennifer Coolidge right now, whatever. I'm like, oh, that's so fun. Anyway, I don't know what the point is. The point is really just that I think it's less about ambition or like, I want to do more and more and more and more things and more about gosh how great would it be to leave behind a legacy that told young girls that they

can also direct casino meaning it's not like this is a boys club of sort of you know when girls make movies they should be in soft focus or the word girl should be in the title. You know, it should be also that there is this kind of broader scope of vision around what, what people are capable of. And as those lines start crossing and, and mixing up and it's kind of, yeah, everybody should do whatever the fuck they want to do. And, and, and, uh, and I do think that that sort of drives me more and more to be like, yeah, in lieu of children or something, I want kind of then to have something of being like,

oh, right, we also, yeah. Like, did you see how crazy those shots were? And Joe Pesci was in it. You know what I mean? And that's like, you know, that weird girl made that. That means I can fucking do it. That's what I got from what like Janelle Monae was saying that really resonated for me of like, that's why we do this. It can't just always be self-serving because there's nothing, there's no there there.

It can't all be public service either. I guess, but there is something about a feedback loop of encouragement of as they're encouraged, it sort of encourages, it feeds the need to sort of say like, okay, if you guys are like this, maybe you'll be into this weird shit. Yes, but I'll also say you're doing it, it's getting way more matter of fact. Meaning I looked at the credits of Poker Face and I'm like, a lot of women's names in here. And you guys aren't fucking like banging the drum loudly. Like, do you see what we're doing?

You're just doing it. This is an overly simplistic question. doing it you know this is an overly simplistic question do you see it as you like we're in culture we're like i can't fuck with culture as it is and you were sort of so put off or traumatized or angry that you then went into like a spiral of abuse and then like kind of came out of it like are we all we're all better now like can i be a person yet like i'm back can i be a person and you were you were allowed to be like you can now you do it on your terms we're like that 90s shit is creepy and embarrassing like i'm scared for you with tara reed and and going on stern i mean sure like it's interesting to talk about on purpose sort of like four people or whatever separate from like our own

texts let's say because what you realize is it's very hard to have in a way like any beef at all with how it went. Like it occurs to me sort of in this moment that I was like, damn, like shit really, it was kind of nice in a way. What? Like things are pretty good right now. Like life is not bad right now.

It's like you're in harmony with I hate to say the culture, but you're in harmony with your output, the level of acceptance for your output and it's kind of beautiful.

It's dark. It'll turn, honey. It's always going to turn. Sweetheart. And it's going to be dark. You know, the turn is out there doing push-ups right now. The turn's out there right now waiting. Just order a large coffee. It's got time. But again, I don't even, without even looking at that, that's how, again, outside in, knowing you more recently,

that's how, again, outside in knowing you more recently, that's like, it's cool that, and also it seemed in a, you couldn't see yourself, but you were like, what are you?

I mean, I literally remember what's she doing in American pie. You've belonged in slums of Beverly Hills. Like that was like, did she write this? Like, did they write this for this girl? How old were you then?

Hey, like 17. Yeah. Tamara Jenkins. She was so great. And then you, it truly feels like it just caught up. I will say that I definitely am like more having fun.

It's interesting. I have a lot of like, I guess what we don't talk about is there was a lot of like hustling involved. Like I'm definitely like a city kid who's like, I got a lot of hustler in me, meaning like I worked for that shit. Like, so when I'm- The first run? All of it.

Or this one? Yeah. like I worked for that shit. Like, so when I'm- The first run? All of it. Or this one? Yeah. Like, so when I, when like I'm in Los Angeles and sometimes I'm like driving and the music's playing and I'm like, ah, shit, this rent-a-car is a fucking, you know, Mercedes. And, you know, it was not, it was not like that. It was a lot of like borrowing like friends' cars and

calling on the cell phone, trying to hustle up work, trying to hustle over here, hustle over there. And I'm like, gosh, that's really something. And I sort of, I'm almost like, holy shit, you kind of, you sort of correct that a little bit, you know. And I'll be walking around New York and I'll sort of like turn into a corner. and I'll sort of like turn into a corner. I think, again, this is all very like, you know, Russian Dolly of like the itch I'm trying to scratch by sort of what I'm always trying to do with like, you know, past, present, future, dead, alive,

whatever the fuck is, you know, I'll like round a corner that's like, oh, that's like the OD corner. And it's like, now we're setting up a camera and I'm standing there with like a cinematographer being like, yeah, let's look this way. And in my mind- And Fellini is getting a wide of the whole thing. And I'm sort of like, but I know that we're on OD corner. Like, and. Do you have the thing. And we're at a point where I

can even fucking tell everyone and we're all like, ha ha ha. And I'm like, this is so weird. OD, you? No, not possible. And it's just a trip. Do you have the things sometimes where you'll be in the rental car, you'll be on OD Corner, and you'll go, wait, which timeline am I? Like, which life am I? I'll be in New York sometimes, and I'm going like, did I do Chappelle's show yet? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Oh, I know exactly what you mean.

This is my whole trip. Yeah. Yeah. What's funny is I've never seen Russian Doll, and I'm like, it's coming off of you. This is my whole trip. Yeah. What's funny is I've never seen Russian doll and I'm like, it's coming off of you. Like you are that. Yeah. You would, you would probably like it, especially now that you're so into the psychedelics. It's like, it's very much me just trying to put that, those questions into that framework that people can, and it's, it's incredible that, you know, we get money to make it because it's literally like, oh, you know, this Viktor Frankl Man's Search for Meaning book

is fascinating. I've done a lot of acid. I've, you know, died and come back to life in my own life. What would it be like if that was a TV show and can we make it funny? And it's really just like a theological, you know, philosophical, psychedelic, existential sort of adventure show. And it's very, it's very fun to, to think about it. It's also, it's very like brain breaking, you know, but I love making it for just this reason. Like I love sitting around with like a group of people and just like talking about this in a writer's room for, you know, months. And then how do you shoot that? Like, how do you articulate that visually?

And what does that sound like? And, you know, what is the sound of those questions of like, you know, did this already happen? Or I know it didn't. I don't want to give the impression that like, this is a universe that i exist in that much i just i've always even before ayahuasca i would always be like what sometimes i'll be walking around the village and like if it were a movie it would be like me and derek delgadio who my show, like walking around a year ago. Yeah. And then in a movie I'd cut to me. Yeah.

Then I cut wide and it would be Mike Schur in 1999. Yeah. Me and him walking around. Yeah. And like, it's all this kind of weird loop and it's not exactly the same conversation. Yeah. But it's not that different. Right.

And that's funny that I like, I'm just getting that like essence from you. Like you are that, you know, I would just say like, for me, it's very relaxing to know I've made that. Cause in many ways it's like, it's nice to have it off my chest a little bit. And like, uh, you know, I really want to, you know, make another one. And I really want to make, like, I really want to direct a movie about that. I really, you know, like, not about that, but just there's, I'm so grateful in a way that there's like a medium that I understand for how to sort of ask these questions in sort of like crazy and visual ways.

Yeah. I find it relaxing and it's an obvious thing to say but it's impossible without the dark period yeah like i think one must you know you you have to have what to say i guess like or Like, or a take, you know, I mean, the good news is, is everyone has sort of experienced darkness and enough. I mean, it's like, it's not like, oh, go search for some. It's really just about how can you like metabolize and then put it out there in a way that's, you know, either like, okay, now it's a standup special or now it's sort of like uh i don't know fucking community service or now it's like you know i

know you you've got to be able to put that into some sort of thing that makes it make sense otherwise it feels like very dark to to have had it at all. Or purposeless. Not purpose, I mean, whatever, it's just existing. But I'm just saying that we all have that, you know, opportunity for purpose baked in because it's really just as simple as being like, you know, hey, I get it. Like sort of what we do is just say,

hey, I get it on a wide scale. But all we're doing is saying, hey, I've also lived through those weird feelings and I get it and let me sort of flip it on a wide scale, but all we're doing is saying, Hey, I've also lived through those weird feelings and, uh, I get it. And let me sort of flip it on its head and sort of like, uh, it feels funny to say it that way. Right. Okay. It feels a little better. We all had that fucked up shit happen. Arguably there's something quite beautiful about the fact that everybody has that ability to sort of say that to each other and sort of like what a more, um, uh, compassionate sort of empathetic, you know, universe it would be if we could sort of say that to each other and sort of like what a more compassionate sort of empathetic, you know, universe it would be if we could sort of say that to each other more consistently instead of say,

you know, how come you're not ahead of this feeling or how come you're not okay. Or, you know, just to say like, or like, ooh, yeah, gross. Oh, that's a lot. Like how much nicer would it be to say like, oh, I get, I get what this is like, and I you too and you're okay. There's something very more gentle about that, even though it's acknowledging sort of a deeper darkness. There ultimately is something more buoyant in acknowledging that that's real too. This is the most incredibly redundant. But let's say there's a Leon biopic. Who plays you obviously.

And what's the arc? What is it? And it's just an hour. You got an hour and 50. I mean, I don't know. I would say that I think it's very key to not be like, here is resolution and here is an answer and here is what it's all of, you know, these are the questions and, you know, it's okay that we're all feeling something similar about, you know, how strange this is. So like, in other words, there are ultimately no like mistakes. It's really just

about like, did you make it through and, you know, take any care of each other in that. So I would say, like, I don't know that there's such a clear arc of, like, you go down and you come out. It's not, I don't think that's what it's about.

I think it's more about, like, you stay, you stay in the fight. You know what I mean? Like, you stay, and that's okay. It's okay to not be a resolved human being, basically. All you have to do is open, open up your hand My man