Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - Diana Reid on why Jane Austen is so much more than florals and bonnets

Episode Date: September 15, 2026

Diana Reid, the writer behind the new Sense and Sensibility adaption, explains to Vick how re-reading Austen taught her something unexpected and why she still cringes at the thought of herself as a writer. Diana is a screenwriter and the bestselling author of the novels Love & Virtue, Seeing Other People, and Signs of Damage. Her debut Love & Virtue won several prizes including the ABIA Book of the Year Award. She was also named Sydney Morning Herald's Best Young Australian Novelist in 2022. Most recently, she’s written a new film adaptation of Jane Austen’s Sense & Sensibility for Working Title and Universal Pictures, set for release in cinemas on 25 September starring Daisy Edgar-Jones and Esmé Creed-Miles as the Dashwood sisters.Diana’s book choices are:06:00 Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austen16:23 The Secret History by Donna Tartt23:51 Middlemarch by George Eliot31:35 The Transit of Venus by Shirley Hazzard27:11 On Beauty by Zadie SmithYou can buy all books mentioned from our dedicated shelf on Bookshop.org  – every purchase supports the work of the Women's Prize Trust and independent bookshops. Every week on Bookshelfie, Vick Hope is joined by inspirational women to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize for Fiction, the greatest celebration of female creativity in the world, is run by the Women’s Prize Trust, the charity building a better future by championing women’s writing. Don’t want to miss the rest of season nine? Follow or subscribe now!This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

Coming up on bookshelfy. I think for our version of sensibility, it was always about the sisters. And it's about their love story with each other as much as it is with the men. I think maybe the perception of the Austin industry and Austin fans is like very cozy cozy. It's, you know, it's like florals and bonnets and cozy escapism. But then you read the books and she's actually a bit of a bitch. Yeah. Like she's really mean.

I think that that cringe that, like, writing is pretentious and who do you think you are to do it, is something that I will never get over. I still struggle with it all the time. I feel like when I was, like, 15, every book I read, like, exploded my brain. Yeah, I know what you mean. Sometimes you read them now and you're like, yeah, like, that's a book. I'm perfectly fine. Yeah, yeah.

Hello, I'm Vic Hope. And this is Bookshelfy, the podcast from the Women's Prize that asks women, with lives as inspiring as any fiction, to share the five books by women that have shaped them. Now, before we begin, remember to subscribe or follow so you never miss an episode, with thanks to our sponsor, Bayle's. Today I'm joined by Diana Reid. Diana is a screenwriter and the best-selling author of the novel's Love and Virtue, seeing other people and signs of damage.

Her debut novel, Love and Virtue, won several prizes, and she was named Sydney Morning Herald's Best Young Australian Novelist in 2022. Most recently, she wrote a new film adaptation of Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility for Working Title and Universal Pictures, set for release in cinemas on the 25th of September starring Daisy Edgar Jones and Esme Creed Miles

as the Dashwood Sisters. Born in Sydney, Diana is currently based in London and it's an absolute pleasure to welcome you to the podcast. Thanks for having me. You were just saying before we started recording, you're like, this is good. I have to remind myself of what it was like to do this film because you get this a lot when you're interviewing actors.

Often their film was like years ago before they start promoting it. So are you in the mindset now? Yeah, I'm in the mindset now. I had a think on the way here, reminisced. Yeah, so I can talk about it. Well, we're going to talk about your work, but also the books that have inspired you, the books that you have loved.

Are you and have you always been a big reader? Yeah, I guess I waxed and waned, which is maybe something we'll talk about, but I was a huge reader as a child, just like read everything. I could get my hands on. My parents were both big readers, which was great. So there were always books in the house. And then I sort of stopped reading when I went to university for a while and then picked it back up again in like my mid-20s. And now, I work in books, so now I read all the time. What was it that made you stop when you were at uni and then what was the motivation to get back into it? It wasn't a hard stop. Like I didn't like reject it or anything. I think I just was doing other things. Like, there's lots of other things to do.

Yeah, I was just like hanging out. And yeah, and I mean, I did a law degree and an arts degree. so I think like when I just read like academic stuff and then just didn't feel like picking up a novel unless it was like a long summer holiday. It just sort of changed the relationship with it when you have to do a lot of reading for work or for study. But as you mentioned now you're you know you work in this world. Yeah. Does reading feel pleasurable or does it feel like it's part of your job? It is.

It's kind of both. Like it's definitely pleasurable. But I'm so sympathetic to. the fact that most people who have jobs that are not in the industry don't read many books a year. And like that's kind of something I always think about when I'm writing. I'm sort of like, oh, if someone's taken your book on a holiday, and this is like one of the five books they'll read all year. Like, you better make it work for a while. No pressure.

Because, yeah, I do feel like I do most of my reading, like at the desk and in work hours. So, yeah, it's something I'm trying to improve. but I think when I want like a brain break, like so many people, I like go on my phone or like I do something through a screen. So, yeah, I think books for me, it's pleasurable, but it's about feeling like stimulated and invigorated. It's not about like totally turning your brain off. Right. And when you are wanting to be stimulated, invigorated, gain those fresh perspectives that inform your work. What sort of books are you gravitating towards?

I guess I mostly read fiction. and probably mostly, like, literary fiction. I think that's because I'm quite, like, porous with my own writing. Or, like, I inadvertently maybe play dry, or, like, sail close to the wind. You're inspired. Yeah, exactly. So I can sometimes, when I go back and read an early draft, I can tell what book I was reading at the time because I've, like, parroted the style.

So usually when I'm working on a book, I try to only pick up books. that are in the style that I'm trying to write in. And then when I'm just reading for pleasure, I feel like I just always have a huge list of amazing authors that I've never even heard. Like, I've heard of them for years, but I've never even touched their body of work. So I feel like I finished a book recently

and then I read Tony Morrison for the first time. That was amazing. So, yeah, I feel like I'm either reading for work or I'm like catching up on the canon. Well, on the subject of the canon and amazing authors, let's dive into the books that you have loved, the authors you have loved. And we start, of course, with Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austen. Originally published anonymously in 1811, Sense and Sensibility is Jane Austen's first published novel. A commercial success at the time.

It remains a much-loved classic to this day and follows the Dashwood Sisters, sensible and sensitive Eleanor and her romantic, impetuous younger sister, Marianne. Each must learn from the other after they're forced by their father's death to leave their home and enter into the contests of polite society. The charms of unsuitable men and the schemes of rival ladies mean that their paths to success are filled with disappointment. But together they attempt to find a way to happiness. So when did you first read this? Yeah, I actually, I know I said before I'm ready to talk about it. I actually don't know. I can't identify when.

And it definitely would have been, like, as a teenager, like, in school, I think I went through a phase where I just read anything that had, like, an orange penguin cover. And I remember I had that addition of sense and sensibility. It's a seat of approval. Yeah, exactly. It's got to be good, isn't it? Literally. Yeah, when you're, like, I don't know, 13 and precocious and you're, like, books are my thing. Yeah, I sort of, yeah, anything orange.

And I think I remember I'd like gone through a phase where I was like pushing myself to read books that I probably didn't understand. Like I was reading like the Brontas sisters and like great expectations. And then I remember I landed on Jane Austen and it was sense and sensibility. And I laughed and I was like, oh, I get the joke. Like I get this. I'm not like, yeah, I'm not like it's not effortful. So yeah, that was my first experience. of it. It's such a validating feeling at that age to get the joke.

Totally. Especially when it's a piece of adult fiction. It makes you feel like, you know what, maybe I do belong in the world. Totally. And because like I feel like you spend so much time in school, like being told that like mid-summer nights dreams are comedy. You're like, you don't laugh once. You don't laugh at. Yeah. And so then, yeah, to just actually have that like organic response, I think, yeah, you're right. It's just, it's really validating. You said that sense and sensibility was one of the first. classics that felt genuinely pleasurable to you to read. Do you find this pleasure in all of Austin's novels?

Was this really a special one? I mean, yeah, I guess for the film, I probably ought to say that this one's special, but I do think it's in all of her books. Yeah, I think that she is just like a comic writer, and she sees the world in a comic way. I think she's so good at identifying the gap between how people see themselves and how they like to present to the world. And that is always hilarious. And then adapting that for screen.

I mean, we've seen the 1995 adaptation with Emma Thompson, Kate Winsler, Alan Rickman, Hugh Grant. How did you feel about adapting this for screen again? And how do you go about doing that? Do you want to put a fresh spin on it? Is that the sort of the motivation? Or is it about, you know, this is something I love. I want to remain true to the original as best as I can. Yeah, I mean, we have all seen the 995 film.

You're right. And I'd seen it. Like, I grew up with that film and I loved it. And that was kind of my introduction. I mean, I probably saw it before I read the book. Like, I think that was sort of my introduction to like the world of Austin. So when my producer first, we were kind of talking about doing a classic. And then we talked about Austin.

because we both love her, and she suggested sense and sensibility. And I sort of, my gut reaction was like, oh, well, the 995 film's perfect. And so I went away and watched the film and read the book again. And I guess for me, that was like a threshold question before I took the project on. I had to, like, satisfy myself that there was something in the book that I wanted to express that I didn't see in the film. and I actually did find that which was so again it's like

obviously I love that film so much and I still love it and I completely stance on its own terms and I mean that's what's so good about the classics is that there's like you know every single person is going to find something else in the text but I think for our version of sensibility it was always about

the sisters and it's about their love story with each other as much as it is with the men and it's about how in order to end up with the men they're meant to be with and I guess like be the best version of themselves they have to learn from each other and they have to take on the qualities that the other one has that they lack and to me that was always like such a beautiful elegant structure like it's literally like thesis antithesis synthesis synthesis synthesis which is what the kids want yeah that's why we go to the cinema for a dialectic so

Yeah, and I think that obviously the 995 film is so romantic, but I think having actors who are, I guess, younger and feeling like it's as much a coming of age as it is a romance was always really important to me. Yeah, it's this relationship that I absolutely love between the Dashwood sisters. They are so different. Their way of expressing love and emotion is so different. and you can really feel the affection and the friendship between them despite their disagreements after they leave their father, particularly their social standing. We see Austin's skills of social observation at its absolute sharpest in this story. Was it important for you to be able to convey this? And how do you do that? Yeah, for sure.

That was hugely important. It's funny. I think when I was re-engaging with her work with like a mind to adapting it, I think I identified something that I think is sort of lost in like the public perception of Austin in like the way that she's been commercialized, which is like I think maybe the perception of like the Austin industry and Austin fans is like very cozy. It's like florals and bonnets and. and cozy escapism.

But then you read the books and she's actually a bit of a bitch. Yeah. Like she's really mean. And so much of the comedy comes from her being, like, pointing at people and saying mean things about them and being and showing you that people are ridiculous. And that was something that it's so funny and it's also so human. And that's something that I tried to convey in the film. like some of the main characters, they bond over, I guess, having a bit of a bitch about other people,

which is bonding because, like, in some ways, if you can, if two people can agree about what they dislike about someone else, it actually is like, that's not necessarily a mean-spirited conversation. That's actually just a conversation about values. It's about, like, what you care about and how you want to present in the world. I love that reframing of bitching. Yeah. It's actually about values. It's factual.

But yeah, I think And in the, so in the film, and I think this is definitely there in the book. And so it was something I wanted to tease out. Edward, who's the suitor of Eleanor, who's the sensible one, he's kind of isolated in his family because he's got this awful mother and sister

who are very kind of venal and they just care about money and status. And he's got much more kind of pure, but like less glamorous ambitions. And I think Eleanor also feels a bit isolated in her family because she's in this very like everyone in her family is like hyper emotional. And they are very much like the sensibility side of the coin. And she's kind of the only one who's like rational and keeping it together. And I think conveying that sense of like two isolated people finding solace in each other is very romantic ultimately.

Yeah. It's so compelling to see. Your book actually seeing other people, it also looks at two very different sisters, but I know you don't have a sister yourself. How did you approach writing that very distinct sisterly relationship and why is it something that you wanted to explore? Yeah, I don't know. I keep writing about sisters.

I don't try to, but my third book ended up being about sisters as well. and I sat down and I was like, I want to write about middle-aged men. And then I finished it. And I was like, oh, it's about sisters. So, yeah, it's clearly a fixation that I have that I can't, I think like I'd need a therapist to answer it. In terms of how I write it, I guess I just think about it as like intimacy between women. So I guess I am, I suppose, channeling like my experiences of having very long-term female friends. And then I guess you, the familial relationship kind of just injects stakes into that dynamic because it makes the relationship so singular because they obviously are the only people in the world who share this particular family.

So it's almost like it gives the relationship stakes because they can't get out of it like as long as they can't. You know, you can stop being friends with someone but you can't stop being a part of a family even if you are estranged or whatever. it's still part of your identity. So, yeah, I guess just the answer in terms of, like, how you access it is just, like, channeling being a woman and how you, like, construct your identity in relation to the other women in your life, which I think is common to friendships as well as sisterhood. It's still sisterhood. Yeah.

Even when it's a friendship. Yeah, exactly. Well, let's talk now about your second bookshelfy book, which is The Secret History by Donna Tart. This is a regular favorite on Boot Shelfy. its electrifying debut follows a group of clever, eccentric misfits at a New England college, who, under the influence of a charismatic classics professor, get taken down a dangerous path in their search for the transcendent. I mean, it's such an exquisite piece of work. I know Catherine Stockett, Hannah Murray earlier in this season, also chose this book. Why do you think

this book holds such a pull on so many readers? Oh, sorry, yeah, to just wrap it on about it again. I, yeah, I was thinking about it. I actually think that it is in a lot of ways, it's kind of like a book about reading. Like, because I know it's about like learning and about the classics, but I think it sort of taps into, I think, why reading is exciting for people, especially at a young age, because the cast of characters are like learning about the classics and they're kind of so, like, lusting after experience. And it's not enough to just, like, read about the classics.

They feel like they have to experience the things that those people were going through. Like, they have to have a back and all. And I think that when you're, like, a teenager and your reading and your, like, emotional and imaginative life is outstripping your actual experience of the world, that's what it feels like. It's like your – and I think for a lot of people who, like, read voraciously, They're often, you know, they're just like at school or like they're in that time of their life where they've never actually been anywhere or like done anything. And so they're like grabbing onto books as like a way to see more of the world and experience more of the world.

And I think that, yeah, and the secret history is like explicitly about that. And then it also like enacts that for the reader because you get to like experience murder and intrigue and like go to the edges of like what people. are capable of. Is that grasping for these transcendent experiences? Is that something that you could relate to that you experienced at that time of your life? Yeah, it's not even necessarily transcendent. I think it's just like, I mean, I grew up in Sydney and I went to university in Sydney. And so I think that like, you know, when you're a child and you're just reading about like even just adults in the world or like people like being in love or all these things that you haven't done yet, it's such a, like, it's just such a poor, like, it's such an almost like emotionally affecting

experience that you don't really get as an adult reader. Like, I feel like when I was like 15, every book I read like exploded my brain. Yeah, I know what you mean. Sometimes you read them now and you're like, yeah, like, that's a book. Sure. That's perfectly fine. Yeah. And I think maybe it's also because I said before I kind of stopped reading when I was at university

and the secret history was kind of the book that brought me back into it. It just reminded me how intoxicating it could be to just like experience the world freshly through a book. You read this after not feeling that way about books or stories for a while. And you've said that you envy people reading this for the first time. What is it about this novel and about Tart's craft? in this novel that makes it so memorable. I mean, it's just so propulsive. Like, it's so well plotted.

And it's amazing, actually, that it's written in such a, like, stylized and literary way, but it's such a page turner. And I think, yeah, I think she's just really good at plotting. Like, I think she's so good at maintaining tension and even that famous opening where she starts with the dead body in the snow. So there's, like, that bomb that's your wall. waiting to go off for the whole, I guess, first, like, half of the book because you know that the narrator is a murderer, but you haven't seen him do it yet. So yeah, I think she's just really good

at pacing and knowing which bits of information to feed you when. Yeah. You love plotty literary fiction. I've heard what is it that makes a plot so great, so grabbing? Yeah, I think maybe it's because I'm not very good at plotting myself. So maybe that's why I'm always like, When I was saying before, like I guess when I read, it's often related to my work. So maybe it's like I'm reaching. I keep reaching for people who've done it well to see if I can work out how to do it. I think it's just, yeah, what is it about it? I think it's just such a dance to, I think especially in realist fiction,

it's like the hardest thing you can possibly do to create something that feels like life, which is messy and doesn't always conform to a neat structure. But then at the same time, give the reader narrative satisfaction. And yeah, I just think that's kind of authors who can achieve that have really like kind of pulled off like the impossible. Yeah, and she does that with this amazing balance with the writing also being stunning. Totally. And you've said that you love campus novels like this one, Brideshead Revisited,

and more people, where do you think that fascination with the campus novel originates? And what did you want to achieve writing your own campus novel with Love and Virtue? Yeah, I mean, I think I actually don't love campus novels anymore. I'm pretty sick of them. I'm fine. We'll leave them behind. Yeah. Yeah, I think I've sort of shed that.

Why do I like them? I mean, I liked them because my first book was a campus novel, and I wrote it when I was 24. So at that time, I had not done anything except for go to school and university. So naturally. Yeah, when I sat down to write a book, I was like, I guess it has to be a campus novel because I don't know anything about anything else. And then I read a lot of campus novels around that time. But, I mean, they are, it is just like such an interesting time to meet a cast of characters because they're still malleable. And the fact that, you know, if you meet...

characters when they're like 18 to 21, that means that the events that occur in that novel can change them and the relationships that they form might set them on a particular course that will continue to affect them for their whole lives. So yeah, I think it's like, it's no surprise that it's such rich, that's such a rich site of fiction and storytelling. It really is. It's so fertile. This episode of Bookshelfy is sponsored by Bayleys. Bailey's is proudly supporting the 2026 Women's Prize for Fiction, helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women,

celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bailey's is the perfect adult treat, whether shaking in a cocktail, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Check out baillies.com for our favourite bailey's recipes. You mentioned the realist genre there, which brings us on to your third book, Shelfy book, which is Middlemarch by George Elliott. Now, this is widely regarded as one of the greatest English novels and a landmark of Victorian realism. Originally published as eight installments between 1871 and 1872 before being released as a novel two years later.

It follows various interconnected lives in the provincial 19th century town of Middlemarch. Most notably, its intelligent young protagonist, Dorothea Brooke, as the characters navigate marriage, ambition, politics and social reform during a period of major cultural change. George Elliott was, of course, Marianne Evans, writing under a pseudonym. When did you first read this one? I first read that one when I was 23 and I loved it. I was like surprised by how much I loved it. I remember, I mean, it is long.

It's like eight or nine hundred pages. And so I did pick it up with like a feeling of, eating my cultural vegetables. And then the, it ends with this, like, I think very famous kind of epilogue. And the narrator says, like, it's always painful when you've been following characters for,

I mean, sorry, I'm paraphrasing. It's expressed much more beautifully, but the narrator is basically like, it's always painful to leave behind characters that you've come to know really well. And I remember reading that and, like, actually crying. and be like, yeah, it is painful.

Like I care about these people so much. And it was, like, astonishing to me that I had spent so much time with these people that are not real. And it was such a wrench. Like, I finished it with grief. I wanted to spend even more time with them. It could have been 1,800 pages long, you know. Do you find that when you're writing with your characters and you're getting to know them, that you find it hard to leave them behind?

No, not at all. I think I'm done. I mean, it's probably as one as good as George Elliott. Like, maybe if I articulated them better, they would be more real to me. No, I get so sick of them. I think, though, I mean, maybe George Elliott was sick of them too. I think it's just that feeling that, like, for me, the moment, the point at which I know it's time to stop writing a novel is when you've, like, exhausted your interest in it because you start because you've got an idea and it seems fascinating

and then you like the process of writing it is working through that idea and then you get to the end and that is suddenly the least interesting thing in the world to you because it is the thing that you've thought about until you have run out of ideas so yeah I feel like if any of my characters like walked into a room they would be the last person I would want to talk to Like, I just don't care what they're up to. Yeah. Actually, looking back to sense and sensibility and Jane Austen's characters, of course, but you brought them to life as an adaptation, and then giving them over to a cast,

and it's a brilliant cast. How was that? How did you find working with them? What is the process of working with them? That was amazing. I mean, I guess, I suppose that's different because, you know, when you're adapting, I guess anyone's work, but especially a classic that's so beloved. You don't feel any sense of ownership.

Like, you know, Eleanor and Marianne Dashwood would never mind to begin with. And it was never even, like, I didn't even ever feel like they were my versions of them. I just felt like, you know, we were giving expression to, like, one side of them. And it was amazing working with actors because they do bring their own interpretations of the character. and I think one of the ways that played out is like obviously we were, I was saying before, the whole plot is about these two sisters learning from each other. And they're kind of in opposition a lot of the time. It's sort of like one is more sensible and one's kind of more emotional.

And it's sort of your, personally for me, I'm very much more of an Eleanor. And so my natural inclination is to like sympathize with her and sort of think that Marianne should learn to like emotional. regulate and just be fake for five minutes if it's going to like make everything socially easier. And so but when you work with an actor who's like embodying that person, they're so defensive of them obviously. And it's like actually a real exercise and empathy as a writer because the actor will like push you to kind of I guess give the character more credit. Like I think as maam was amazing at being like, you know, I don't think Marianne would say this.

so I don't think she would do this. And it ended up like making the character so much more real because it made me realize that like I had dismissed her probably a bit because there's like an empathy gap there. It's so interesting that there's this new way of interacting with the characters. Totally. Fresh. On Middle March, I mean, another just absolutely incredible piece of fiction.

It sort of ranks as one of the most famous in English literature. I want to pull out a question. quote, the philosopher and writer Claire Carlisle recently wrote that we are better for having read Middle March. The qualities of beauty and goodness discerned in Dorothea's life also shine in the words chosen to convey the significance of that life. I know that you've described it as the most that you could ask from a realist novel. So what makes it such a perfect example of that? Yeah, it is just so good. I think it's because I guess it's a humanist novel and it's It's, I guess the spine of the plot is really about these two young people in particular.

One is this young woman, Dorothea, and the other one is a young doctor called Ligate, who both have, they're both very intelligent and very ambitious, and they have huge dreams to change the world. And they correctly identify that the world is full of injustice, and they think that they know how to fix it. and the arc of the novel is that they kind of fail. Like, they actually just don't do what they set out to do, but they find love and in various ways.

It's not always romantic love, but they find human connection. And that sounds like such a trite consolation that, like, you can't change the world. I mean, it's almost, like, kind of conservative to say that, like, you can't fix the social ills of the world, but you can love your neighbors. And it almost sounds like it could be demoralizing. But by the time you finish the book and you've grown to love these characters and care about them so much, you actually feel the weight of that consolation because you're holding all this love for them. And you think, like, actually, that's not nothing.

That's real. And human connection is actually so powerful. And I think you can't express that except through the, It's kind of like you can say that to someone, but the real achievement of the novel is that it gives you the experiential knowledge of that rather than just the abstract idea because you feel the connection. Does that make sense? It does make sense. You've got to read it. You can't have to read it.

You can't have to read it. That's an answer. Yeah, you can't. Yeah, you should have read it. Well, let's move on to another epic, actually. Your fourth book-shelfy book is The Transit of Venus by Shirley Hazard. This critically acclaimed novel from 1980 follows two sisters, Caroline and Grace Bell, as they leave Australia to begin a new life in post-war England.

But as the decades pass and their paths weave and cross the world from Sydney to London, New York, to Stockholm, two slow-burning secrets wait in ambush for them. Shirley Hazard's breathtaking masterpiece is an intricately plotted Greek tragedy, a sweeping family saga and a desperate love story. Now, you read this shortly after moving from Sydney to London. Did this book offer you a roadmap of sorts? Not really a roadmap. I think it was...

So yeah, it's about two sisters from Sydney. Sisters again. There they are again. It's a fixation. That's actually been a theme in pretty much more... Actually, Dorothy has a sister. It's quite prominent in Middle March. Yeah, I'm actually fixated on it.

You love sisters. Going out my head checked. Yeah, I love for it. them. Yes, it's about two sisters. And they moved from Sydney to London and it's, it was written in the 80s, but it was a historic novel then, so it's set in the 50s. And I think it maybe it wasn't necessarily a roadmap because obviously the life that they go on to live in London is so different and it's so like context specific. But it was definitely validating in a way because I think growing up in Australia, so much of the fiction you get exposed to, especially in school,

like very kind of masculine, like these really like muscular stories about usually a man having like a fraught relationship with the land. And it's about this like hostile, untamable environment. And like a lot of like, I guess like Tim Winter novels or like Richard Vanninger novels explore that theme of nature is this kind of like hostile imposing force. and I think those books are obviously like classics for a reason and I also think they export really well because that's like the kind of outsider perception of what Australia is. It's like this remote, scary wilderness.

But for someone like growing up in a huge city like Sydney, that was never my experience of being Australian. And so I think reading this book when I moved to London, which is about two women who feel like they've grown up in this like remote place that other people perhaps look down on, but they feel like they're so hungry to participate in what they perceive as like the center of the world because they've been like living in a remote place and they've always felt like culture was happening elsewhere. I feel like that was kind of the first time that I was like, oh, my version of what it means to be Australian is being expressed in a book. and that was done decades ago. So it's sort of, yeah, I guess it made me feel like almost like romanticising my like

journey to London, which is hilarious because it's like the easiest place to move and everyone does it. But yeah, I guess it made me feel like I was like part of a chain of Australians who had been doing this for decades. And did the book have a lasting impact on you? Do you think about it a lot? Do you go back to it? Yeah, I do.

I think about it all the time. It's also just really, it's just really, really well written. It's like such a feat. And it's very, it's like a book about paying attention. And as a reader, you like miss a lot of clues the first time. And so it's like the kind of book that when you finish it, you like immediately start, you look forward to reading it again. I think Shirley Hazard has been praised actually quite. a lot for the precision of her prose and the elegance of her prose as well.

Why do you think the transit of Venus sort of remains such a touchstone for readers? I mean, despite it not necessarily being as widely discussed as some other 20th century classics. Yeah, why? I think it's because it's actually quite hard. And it rewards attention and you finish it and you think you sort of immediately want to go back to the start and identify all the things you missed. So it kind of has like the satisfaction of like a really well-constructed thriller or like a mystery.

And then it also has like the kind of more literary pleasures of being like written quite poetically and having great psychological insight into the characters. You said that that journey that you took from Sydney to London, oh, it's been done before and you know, but this made you look at it maybe in a, almost romantic way in being a part of that. But tell me about that journey. What was the motivation for coming across? I'm like so embarrassing for a dog. It's like you, like every man and his dog in Australia like does a stint in London at some point. When did you come over? Whatever. I came three

years ago. Okay. Yeah. And have had a lovely time. It's been amazing and has like opened up a whole new side of my career that wouldn't have existed if I'd stayed home. So yeah, it's like been the best experience ever. Let's talk about your fifth and final boot shelphy book, which is On Beauty by Zadie Smith, winner of the 2006 Women's Prize for Fiction. This reimagination of E.M. Foster's Howard's End follows a pair of feuding families, the Belsies and the Kipps, whose lives collide through love affairs, ideological clashes and cultural identity. Set between New England and and London and exploring themes of race, class, politics, arts and family tension with satire and emotional depth. Oh, it's been a little while since I've talked about this book, since I read it.

Why have you chosen this one today? I love this book so much. Yeah, I'm surprised it doesn't come up on this podcast more. So am I think about it. She won a women's prize. She literally won. Yeah. I was like 16, 17 when I read this.

So it's nice to take my mind back to that place. Yeah, it's such a, it's such a beautiful book. It was my introduction to Zadie Smith, who I'm now just, I've read everything she's ever written. And I mean, like so many people, you know, she's so beloved for a good reason. I think this book was really important. I think it kind of informed my approach to my own work because, I mean, you can, like so many of the books I've picked today are actually classics. But I think that for a while I, I, um, I, I think in my personal reading life, especially when I was like in my early 20s, I sort of had this perception that reading classics was like performative. Like it was like a thing that teenagers did because they wanted people to think that they were smart. But if you like were not interested in like I get like if you weren't intellectually elitist, there was like no reason to read them. And on beauty just totally got like got me over. that hang up because I think it's her relationship to Forster is so respectful without being like reverent. Like she kind of takes bits of Howard's end, but then for sort of like the plot

and the themes, but then she totally like reinvigorates it with like she's so inventive about applying it to now. And I think I think it kind of taught me that your like relationship to the canon can be one of like almost humility like um that it's you know if you want to write a book it's important to look at other people who've done it before and done it well and just see what you want to take from it you've said that on beauty is instrumental in your development as a writer what was the most important lesson you think you took from it i think it's that that like um because i didn't study literature or creative writing or anything so i think it kind of um i think it's sort of made me feel like that if you wanted to learn how to do it, all you had to do was just,

like, read what other people had done before. And like, it kind of, I guess, liberated me to, like, take what you want from the classics. And the, yeah, I guess it's almost like the idea that you don't need to be an expert in them to, like, find something that you can take from them and try and apply in your own work. Like you can almost like have fun with it. It's so interesting that you talk about having this sort of disdain for the classics or this sort of cynicism around reading them. And yet your list today is mainly classics.

Yeah, I mean maybe I am, I mean maybe that cynicism was warranted. Like maybe I have just become a pseudo intellectual, like insufferable person. Not insufferable. Come on. But it is, I mean, it's clear that there's so much. inspiration and influence to take from all of these places. There's a reason they're classics and we can all learn from them. And then you're obviously applying it to your writing, but you've spoken about being quite strict with yourself when it comes to meeting your daily word quota and sitting down and

getting what you need to on the page. Are there ever days when you struggle when there's a creative block and how do you overcome that? Yeah, I find it so hard. I actually find writing harder all the time. Yeah, I think, I mean, it probably goes to a similar thing, which is like, sort of speaks to my original aversion to the classics. I think that like, and maybe it's an Australian thing, I think I have such a deep, deeply ingrained cultural aversion to pretentiousness. Like, I think I used to feel like if I was trying to learn how to write a book and I read

Henry James, then people would be like, oh, do you think you're. or like um the same as like if you're reading middle march people will be like oh so you think you're really smart and um i think that that cringe that like writing is pretentious and um who do you think you are to do it is something that i will never get over on i still struggle with it all the time like um yeah every time i sit in front of a blank page i am just like who do you think you This is absurd. You know what Zadie Smith, I think, does, though, which I find so inspiring as someone who does want to put ideas on a page

and sometimes doesn't know where to start. She writes about what she knows. She writes about what's around her. You said that On Beauty was your kind of introduction to her and her incredible backlist. But I think everyone I meet has a different introduction to her. They'll say, oh, it's white T for its NW. But they felt quite, for me it was swing time.

I felt quite seen in this character. that I totally related to. And she's made me look at the world through new eyes because I'm like, oh, there's something I could write about. There's something I could write about because she did that. Totally. Yeah, I guess it's that question, like, who do you think you are? I guess it like, and I think maybe her relationships with the classics,

it sort of like makes you realize that like any experience is like worthy of being written about. Yeah. And I guess it kind of like eradicates that idea of worth. It's like that, yeah, you don't. It doesn't need to be a particular type of experience in order for it to count as like literary. Totally. Which is amazing. Like, what an achievement.

It's a nice way to live, actually. Totally. Yeah. If you're having a bad day, well, that could be something to write about, I guess. For sure. Yeah, it's like anything. Yeah, you actually just can write about anything. Well, on the subject of which, what are you working on?

Oh, I'm not going to say. Oh, sorry. It's top secret. Sorry. No, yeah, it's not. That sounds so, like, yeah, I just have a weird. Actually, it goes to what I was saying before about the combating the cringe. The only way I've worked out to manage it is I just don't tell anyone what I'm working on until it's, like, basically about to come out.

And that's so I can delude myself that I could just delete it all tomorrow. And that's, like, how I write because I sit down and I say, who do you think you are, blah, blah, blah, blah. like this is ridiculous. And then I say, well, if it's crap, you can just delete it tomorrow. And, like, that's what gets me going. It keeps it to yourself. It keeps it to myself. So if I tell anyone, then the cringe, like, becomes unbearable because I'm like, oh, then I'll have to tell them that I deleted it.

And I'll be like, what's going on? Yeah. We don't need to know. No, also, no one cares. Like, yeah, I mean, and I know that rationally. But, yeah, I think it, like, just helps to not tell them. I think that makes perfect sense for your own peace of mind above all. all else. Yeah. Yeah, it's like a self-protective thing. No, protect your energy. Protect

yourself. But then it's so, but it's so knowing because often people ask just to be polite and then I go into this whole psychodrama and they're like, I actually don't care what your book is about. No, I do. No, I do. I think the reasoning behind that is something that we could all learn from as someone who is a flappy head and cannot help but tell people things before the contract's been signed before it's definitely happening. And it does make it worse. Oh, it does. It does. So I could, I could learn a thing or two. Okay, great. Well, Diana, it's been an absolute pleasure to chat to you about your favourite books. I do have to ask you if you had to choose one from your list of predominantly classics there.

I know. I know. She's such a sued. Loser. Which one would it be? I guess like the secret history is the most like fun. So maybe the secret history. You want to have an enjoyable read. Yeah. I mean, they're all great, obviously. Maybe the secret history, yeah. Okay. Well, off you go to your desert island. Thanks. see you there because I wouldn't mind actually. It'd be quite nice. Nice little break. Thank you so much.

And best of luck with Sense Sensibility. What an absolutely incredible film and it's going to be there for everyone to watch. Yeah, thank you. I can't wait for much to see it. I'm Vic Hope and that was Bookshelfy from the Women's Prize, supported by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thanks for joining me for this episode. You'll find all the books that we discussed in our show notes. There's also a link to our bookshop.org. where every purchase supports independent bookshops and the work of the Women's Prize Trust, a charity helping build a better future by championing women's writing.

Now remember to hit the follow or subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And if you liked this one, then leave us a rating or review to help other readers discover even more brilliant books by women. I'll see you next time.