Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S1 Ep1: Thinking Pink: What Feminism Means to Millennials

Episode Date: May 9, 2019

Fiction + Feminism. Take your seat in the audience next to Zing Tsjeng at this week's Baileys Book Bar. Hear bestselling author and Women’s Prize for Fiction Founder Director Kate Mosse speak to journalist and author of the bestselling Everything I Know About Love, Dolly Alderton, feminist campaigner and author of Feminists Don’t Wear Pink, Scarlett Curtis, and UK Content Manager at Acast and executive producer of podcasts including Mostly Lit, Clarissa Pabi. They cover intersectionality, romantic love, cancel culture, and share some brilliant book recommendations. Books covered include: Blond Roots by Bernardine Evaristo Three Guineas by Virginia Woolf The Rules Do Not Apply: A Memoir by Ariel Levy For more details head over to www.womensprizeforfiction.co.uk or check out #WomensPrize and @WomensPrize on Twitter and Instagram. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast, produced by Fremantle. Celebrating women's writing, championing our voices, sharing our creativity and perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Zing Singh, at the Bailey's Book Bar, Waterstone's Tottenham Court Road, London. The room is filled with bright-eyed women and a few men, having animated chats and getting excited about the discussion we're going to hear today. Thinking Pink, what feminism means to millennials. The panel includes 2019 Women's Prize Judge, Journalist and author of the bestselling everything I know about love, Dolly Alderton, feminist campaigner and author of Feminist

Don't Wear Pink, Scarlet Curtis, and publisher and executive producer of the mostly lit podcast, Clarissa Pabby, all here today to chat about what the effort means to millennials and to share some of the feminist books that have inspired them. And our esteemed host, is best-selling author and Women's Prize founder, director Kate Moss. Everything about this week that is the Bailey's Book Bar is about celebrating this year's prize and the shortlist in particular which we've just launched. But also the idea of the book bar is to just come together

and have discussions about amazing other books by women that you might have read, you might not have read, and what you want is everybody to go away and think, that sounded fantastic, I'm going to go and try that because the women's prize is about amplifying and honouring women's voices and putting brilliant books by women whenever they were written in the hands of women and men who would love them. So, Dolly, I'm going to start with you because you're in the line of fire.

So do you want to just, for five minutes, just say what this theme means to you and just share a few of your thoughts? So in terms of what feminism means for me today as a millennial, I think at the forefront of my mind all the time, it's about acknowledging that for far too long there have been so many groups of women who have not only been excluded from culture, from politics and art, from our headline news, but from our feminist movement as well. And recognising that with a degree of urgency,

that we need to kind of make space and give active audiences and platforms and power to women who have been overlooked or ignored or patronising, or excluded or marginalised and we need to recognise the importance and more than importance the vast vast benefits of their voices and opinions and decisions and

stories and fury and comedy and brains and pain and what else do I have on this list? Creativity and politics how important it is and how beneficial it will be to have all those voices and experiences in the conversation

and it's the responsibility, I believe, of women who hold power in whichever way they hold power to consider how they can share their platform and that space in a considerate and thoughtful way. But I think the really, really tricky bit that we're kind of navigating now is that we need to acknowledge that collective need while equally not silencing or humiliating or even abusing women who we deem from the outside to have already had too much space. or to have everything, or that we perceive to have found existence easy or womanhood easy. Because I just think there is nothing progressive about putting tape over a woman's mouth in 2019

because we've decided she represents all-encompassing groups, and she should shut up because we've had enough of her. So the aim of my feminism now, and it's constantly evolving, and I'm constantly getting it wrong, and I'm always keen to learn, is never to eliminate women or cancel women or shut women up and not to homogenise their experiences or dismiss what they have to say because we've decided that we've heard from too many women like them. I think eliminating women is not what we need to do now

in terms of their voices and their experiences in public spaces. I think we just need more women now. like, as I say, with urgency, women of colour, gay women, biwomen, trans women, working class women, disabled women, middle-aged women, elderly women, women with children, women without children. There is space for all of us and we have to really, really resist this patriarchal notion that there isn't because I think that's what makes us turn on each other. And I think we have to collectively be committed to change and revolution and making the

I think we need to not be embarrassed about the potential of making mistakes if we're really trying to create a new world. And yeah, we need to listen and share our space and learn. That was lovely. Thank you. That was fantastic. So one of the things that you clearly feel passionately about is the listening side and the supporting side to allow lots of women who have never had the space to see. speak for themselves as well. Yeah.

But I'm also struck by the idea that there is a tendency for people to shut down other women. So do you think that this is something that is getting harder? Do you think women are being actively encouraged to turn on each other, if you like, whether it's social media or whatever, in order, in fact, to silence? Yeah, and I think it's about recognising what platforms we have to appropriately use to make change and what platforms are inappropriate. So a criticism that I've faced with my book, just as an example, is sometimes I'll have people say to me, oh, well, your memoir is just about a white middle class woman.

And it's like, well, the very nature of memoir is that it is about my life and experiences. So it would be entirely inappropriate, completely offensive and very powerful. for me to write a memoir about what it's like to be as a disabled woman or a woman of color. But what I can do is use other spaces that I occupy, be it on my podcast, be it when I'm championing other women's work, to make sure that I'm not just talking about the experiences and the work and the creation and the politics and the opinions of women who look and sound like me. Wonderful. Thank you. I will pick up some of these later.

Scarlett, do you want to take the floor? Yes, I'm going to be quite annoying and talk about Generation Z feminism, which is not blending of feminism, although I think sometimes these generational things are also very silly. I do a lot of work with teenage activists. I run a group called The Pink Protest and we're like a feminist activist collective and we lead campaigns mostly around teenage girls, kind of helping them get into politics a bit more. And something I see with a lot of them is that they speak a language that I think. for me and for a lot of people older than me we had to learn and something that's amazing about social

media and books and podcasts is that these girls that I kind of go in there to work with these teenage girls all high and mighty like I'll teach them a little bit about feminism and then I end up learning so much more because they know all these words that I don't know and it's just rolls off their tongue and

they really are imbued with this language I kind of taught myself feminism when I was around 15 I was from the age of 14 to 17, I was in a wheelchair. I lived in chronic pain. I had gotten there because of what I now realized was quite abusive situations. And after I got out of physical pain, I had a lot of mental pain, I had a lot of trauma,

I couldn't really leave the house for another two years because of PGSD. And I got really obsessed with reading self-help books. I read like thousands and not thousands, but loads of self-help books and listened to self-help audiobooks and none of it ever worked. Like none of it ever sunk in. I'd kind of wake up every morning and write gratitude lists obsessively and try and do all these tips and none of it ever worked. And then I started to read feminist books.

And that was the best self-help I ever read. And my book that I chose for today was one of those first books I read. And I never read another self-help again because I had just, to me, feminism was my self-help. It was this way that I began to realize that what I had been through and the situations that I was facing in the situations I read about that affected other women weren't to do with the world being an awful place, and they weren't to do with me having done something wrong or someone horrible. They were to do with these systems of patriarchy, and

not only did I understand why they were happening, I understood that there was this incredible global force of women that was opposing these systems, and that I could join, and that my fight didn't have to be just me anymore. It could be this group. And, you know, I went from being a 19-year- with no friends and no purpose who hated leaving the house and hated public transport and hated crowds to making this group of friends in New York that were all feminist activists of all different ages and all different genders and sexual orientations and I went on a bus to the Women's March in D.C. and I hadn't been on public transport in three years and I think often when we talk about feminism there's a lot of pain there and there is a lot of pain there.

There's a lot of pain in all these issues. You know, I've worked with some incredible activists who have been through horrors I can't even imagine, and they are doing this because of the pain, but there's also so much joy to me in feminism. And it's how I've met all my friends. It's how I've discovered the world. It's how I've acknowledged my privilege. It's how I've come to understand the world and women and men in a way I never thought was possible. And that's what I see in a lot of people who are younger than me,

that feminism, there's hope there and there's joy there, and there's this idea that we're working towards something that maybe we can actually change. And change happens all the time. You know, there are people doing amazing things, and it's not just something that's, like, serious and scary. It can be really fun. I mean, that's beautiful to hear, actually,

that feminism was your self-help, that this was what saved you, which is brilliant. Clarissa. Wow, what do you say? What is left to say at this point? That was amazing. And yeah, I guess I'm on this panel, I guess, for slightly different reasons. I've spent the last six years working in the book publishing industry at publishing houses like Penguin Random House and Bonnier Books.

And it's quite surreal to be here because almost 10 years ago, I think, and it was actually, Actually, around this time, I want to say Kate was sort of around this time. I was on a really amazing youth panel for the Women's Prize. So the Women's Prize, Kate Moss, who's just a queen to me, she's so amazing. And the team and the prize basically set up this really innovative concept, which was to have a shadow panel of six young people, students, three young women, three young men. And we kind of judged the prize alongside the main panel. we came up with a completely different shortlist

and we came up with a completely different winner and it was a really formative experience for me personally because I guess on a very personal level I think the books and the kinds of women who we were reading and their voices were kind of people that I knew people that looked like these people, I knew people that had similar experiences and that's kind of not to take away from any of the books

that we study on the syllabus and stuff when we're students, but it was the first time that had happened for me. And that's kind of really linked to my feminism, I would say, because feminism, to me on one level, is about and means like redefining what it means to be a woman and the kinds of versions that we see in terms of what is possible for women to do. And I think, obviously, linked to that is intersectionality. And I think Dolly just kind of articulated it as beautifully as, as like, you could, because I think it's feminism to me,

and I think a lot of millennial and centennial feminism, as sort of Scarlett was talking about, is trying to be effortlessly inclusive. I think that's the difference that you're saying. That for Gen Z, that's what it is. But I think that it's that intersectionality and it's that understanding that different women necessarily have different experiences

because they have different experiences, they have different perspectives, and they have different ways in which the world receives them. The kind of feminism I'm interested in and kind of subscribe to is kind of around that, and it's around kind of acknowledging that, you know,

two things can be true at once. You cannot experience something and you can experience something else and someone else, you know, has a vice versa. And that doesn't kind of invalidate or negate your experiences, but you kind of have to acknowledge that. And I think therefore, like sort of feminism

needs to be kind of intentionally, as you said, there's an urgency, right? and it's got to be intentional and it's got to be deliberate and we've got to keep on trying that acknowledgement of other women's experiences and that they're different from your own, even if you're not experiencing that. And so, yeah, so that for me is kind of what feminism means to me.

I totally agree about the commitment to intersectionality and inclusivity I've realised means having to acknowledge that there are so many women who are having entirely different experiences to me in day-to-day quotidian life, in the workplace, on public transport everywhere, in relationships in dating, they're having

I can't assume that my experience is exactly the same as theirs. You have to just keep your ego out of the room. Like that's really important in these conversations and the fact is this is like an uncomfortable truth about why things get so icky sometimes when these

discussions happen on Twitter is that no one likes being told off. No one likes to be told that they're wrong and to listen. And, you know, this is what the other side of the coin is. But it's just, it's so crucial. Going to your books, everyone that I know has either read everything I know about love or has it on their must read list. Was there ever an option of someone saying to you,

don't put me in this book? Did you ask for permission, is what I mean? Yeah, not with the men. Okay. Because I changed all their names and I like, radically changed all their details so no one unless you were very close to me would be able to tell who it was and with the women uh yeah i asked every single one of them i sent them every single girl that i talked about uh i sent them uh the manuscript before i sent it to my publisher

and it is a testament to how wonderful they all are that i had zero edits nice oh it's a testament to your friendships i guess with them thank you um so romantic love is such a big part of life, and it's a subject of a lot of great fiction and also memoir. But do you think there's a danger in still selling this idea of romantic love to young women? And how do we square that with feminism? Such an interesting question. You know, I think for a lot of people, they are two things entirely at odds with each other. And there's been, like, radical feminist texts written over the years by various brilliant radical feminist minds who have argued the case that a head.

heterosexual romantic relationship is not compatible with feminist agenda. And while I don't agree with that entirely, I do completely understand that viewpoint. And I think, you know, the main thing is with romantic love and how we incorporate that into a fair and equal and respectful world is at the moment the way that it's marketed to women is that it is that it is, is a sole signifier of success, identity, validation, purpose. And we've fed that from when we are like little, little, little girls. And we are continued to be fed that forever. Basically, until I think you hit the menopause and people suddenly stop asking,

well, how's your love life? And that is unacceptable to me. And I think that there is a world in which you can be a great romantic, and want to align your life with another, but it be a part of your life and identity and not the entire thing. I would just say some of the most romantic life stories that I read about while doing my own book series

was when I read the words, supportive husband or partner. I was like, oh, that's a great romance there because clearly things were really equal. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's so true. Yeah, and, you know, those men do, exist. I'm a massive fan

of Nora Ephron and did you watch the film Julian Julia? No, I have to say I didn't. If you like food, it's a great foodie film and there's a character in it who's a real life man who was Julia Charles's

husband Paul and he, their relationship this is in the 50s was entirely equal and he followed her around the world so she could pursue her career at various points and he really championed her and believed in her

and she was the kind of star and ultimately breadwinner of their relationship and Nora Ephron said in an interview that it was really important for her to put that love story on screen because that was there's a different type of romantic love that exists

and there are those kind of men who want to be in reverence and admiration and total support of the women that they love rather than the woman be a kind of accoutrement on this big romantic whirlwind which she is passive but finally rendered lovable and important and yeah I think we need just more of those stories really

I think we need more of those men to be honest oh Jesus you're telling me are you single? No I'm just here on my own looking for them what's really interesting listening to all three of you I think that there are certain key things that have come out is that actually the S word, never mind the F word, the sisterhood word, you all in completely different ways feel that. It's about a gang and supporting the gang

and making the gang bigger and bigger so that everybody can come in it and you can... Although I think there's also is sometimes a problem with the word sisterhood because it does kind of... or has been used in the past to collapse the female experience into one singular experience And I think actually a huge part of this new wave of the movement and how we're moving forward is going,

this isn't one singular experience. This is a lot of different experiences, and every single person is coming at this from a different way. And it's also the intersection of lots of different movements that have been grabbing for resources. You know, I think something that the patriarchy does is it positions movements against each other. So it positioned the civil rights movement,

against the women's movement, against the disability movement, and there's only so many resources and can we all have the bit that we want? And I think something, yeah, that we're doing is acknowledging that it's different. Yes, I mean, the odd thing, I suppose, it's partly about the founding principles of the Women's Prize for Fiction.

It is a completely sort of ironic truth that because the prize exists to honour and celebrate writing by women, the one judgment that you cannot make on any of the books is that it's the woman's book. strangely, it sets women free to be everybody and individuals. And it's an incredibly important thing about the women's prize because actually what you're all talking about is we know

that nobody thinks that all men are the same. But often people behave as if all women are the same, aren't they? Yeah. It's a distraction though, right? It's a distraction, absolutely. Absolutely. And also, I'm afraid, often the reason people are being pitied against each other and it is being manipulated is simply money.

Why do bosses not want equal pay? Well, let's have a think. I mean, it's really as simple as that. And you could see that that was, you know... So in terms of this millennial word, so the M word now, and you said Generation Z? Scarlet keeps wanting to remind me that I'm older than her, basically. Really, really, yeah.

So what is Generation Z? I don't know what that is. It's meant... Is that funny? Should I know what that is? They're the ones that are me. They're the ones below me. Yeah, it's meant to be, I think it's, I'm the tip, so it's 19, 95 and younger.

So that's really quite interesting. So why, you can also say centennial, because it kind of follows them. I think the distinction between Gen Z is, and I am even like the two, like my brother's, who's 15, is a whole different thing from me, but he has never known a world without technology. Yeah. Which is different. And I have.

Yeah. So it's just that thing, I think. But is that distinction helpful, centennial, millennial, generation? Is that not splitting you all up from each other? I think the thing that Scarlett said that I'm always amazed by when I'm in the company of Generation Zeders is how naturally the language of inclusivity and democracy comes to them. I have to say, I sometimes feel like Christianity. Dean Hamilton when I am around

Jen Zedders. I constantly feel like I'm making gaffs that are going to be reported on the mail online. But it's a wonderful thing to be around because first of all, as I said, I'm trying very hard. And I think it's really important that all of us are not afraid of learning new words, learning new experiences, learning other people's truths. And that's particularly difficult for millennials, I think, because our entire youth has been documented online.

So I think we feel that authenticity means having one opinion, one vocabulary, and if you change it, then the worst thing for my generation is apparently to be called a hypocrite. And I really push against that. So that's a distinction that I see between millennials and the generation below. And that's something that I'm endlessly in awe of and really. enjoy learning from. I also think it's tied to a kind of fear of... Are we allowed to swear?

Yes, you can swear. I'll say messing up. A fear of messing up. I think so much of this kind of sneaking around and political correctness is to do with the fear of messing up. And I think something that we'll all have in a few years and that Gen Z has now is that like all of us have made a million mistakes online. And that's just kind of accepted.

And, you know, there's not this fear. of making a mistake or a fear of saying something wrong because it's been happening since you were 12 and you have like a million embarrassing pictures and have said the wrong thing and use the wrong language and I think as long as we can all I see so much of like patriarchal systems be perpetuated by people just being scared of saying the wrong thing and if you just accepted like we all say the wrong thing all the time we're all getting better we're not going to be angry like everyone's fine move on you know then it would be fine but the other things thing we need to recognise is that the very nature of language and semantics is that it changes a rapid pace. Words that my parents think

were taught were totally right on and the like hippist most inclusive thing, hippist, I can't believe I just said that. It's sitting next to me, I'm bringing you down. Never mind, Christina. I'm like the Venn diagram, shade a bit in between you and Scala, I think.

Yeah, the words that they thought were progressive and our words that are so offensive and really cringe me out. And that's not, you know, all I do is inform them that language has moved on. And then they put it into practice. But like that's the nature of language and culture. Thank God it changes fast. With your book, Feminist Don't Wear Pink. Yes.

You've had an interesting experience of bringing something into the world with the help of a publishing industry that is still kind of in flux when it comes to the values of intersectional feminism. Have you witnessed any must-do better moments from the last year? That is such an amazing question. I actually, we amazingly won a National Book Award for Young Adult Book. And in my speech, I talked about the publishing gender pay gap. And I think everyone in the room was like, what is she doing? But I do think it's fascinating, just seeing this industry where there's so many women,

our whole team was women. and it was the most incredible team but then so many of the people at the top are men and there is still this kind of slightly traditional, there are just some values that don't line up with the fact that this really is an industry especially young adult publishing which is what we were doing

that is fuelled by incredible passionate women and I think that was a joy in so many ways to get to work with that only women but it's also very, I love that people are starting to talk about the fact that even though this is a very female forward in terms of the people there, it may be in terms of the rules and everything and the hierarchy, it's not as equal as it could be. I mean, you seem pretty unique in the fact that, you know, you're really cognizant of your own privilege and you're really cognizant of how that relates

to your own politics, to intersectionality. But do you think that the industry and, you know, society in general is aware of these concepts in the same way you might be? I think not. And I, yeah, I don't think they are. I think often at times people get scared of it, like scared of saying, I am privileged because they think it's this kind of terrifying thing and you're suddenly going to be called racist and you're suddenly going to be called all these things that people are so scared of being. So instead of acknowledging it, they just hide from it. And I think the first thing I was told is when I was born was like, don't be racist. But, and that was always, I was like, I'm not racist. My family's not racist. We don't believe in racism. But, I acknowledge it.

that I was a part and my family is a part of institutional racism and that we live in that world and if you partake in this world, if you spend money, if you interact with other people, you are contributing to that and it doesn't mean it was a choice, it doesn't mean you're a bad person. People are so scared that we have this like endless white guilt that actually holds us back from ever, ever pushing anything forward because we're all just like making things worse

because we're too scared to people racist. This podcast is made in partnership with Bay, Bailey's Irish cream. Baileys is proud to shine a light on women and their achievements by getting more books written by truly remarkable women into the hands of more people. Baileys is the perfect adult treat, whether in coffee, over ice cream or paired with your favorite shortlisted book. And now, back by popular demand, discover somewhere in a bottle with Bailey's Strawberries and Cream. So just for all three of you, what would you say the priorities of your feminism are? So a lot of this is about, the individual not doing the wrong thing and the individual joining in a group. So but in terms of if you like the bigger politics, in terms of what particular things

are the priorities for each of you in terms of change in the world in your feminism? So I think one of the most important things that to me and that I see is being quite important for everyone is around I guess like creating infrastructure and creating legacy, because I think that what is amazing about the internet, and as Scarlett was saying, digital culture as a whole, is that it has, it's really kind of democratised and kind of decentralized a lot of power.

And so there's much more visibility of different kinds of women, non-binary people and their stories and their experiences, and there are platforms that are being created. there are audiences that are readily there that these people can kind of connect with and they want to engage with this, you know, what people have to say. And I think it's like there's all this energy

and there's all this amazing work that is happening. How do we keep that momentum? Because the velocity and the volume is happening on a kind of digital level, right? It's a digital scale. But how do we create like those really lasting like structures, whether they are institutions, whether they are organizations,

whether they are initiatives, I think that's actually one of the reasons that the women's prize is actually a really interesting, like, model and is kind of like slightly prophetic in, you know, in its kind of inception in terms of, and now where we are here and how it's lasted for such a long time. And had, you know, obviously you've got your core values, you've got the mission and what it means, but it has changed. And it's found a way to last. Yeah, I think that completely ties to my focus as well, which is, you know, in like a really geeky way, I love talking about like theoretical feminism and like generational things. But I also think like it is fundamentally a movement to end discrimination against women. And there are so many huge issues across the world that just need addressing before we can start talking about like whether I feel comfortable speaking in a meeting room.

That's important as well, but, you know, I think there are some, when you're having a conversation, especially with people that maybe doubt the movement or don't really know what it's for, there are some stats and facts that are just undeniable. Like, I organised a campaign last year on period poverty. All this data came out that one in four girls in the UK couldn't afford menstrual products. We had a huge protest outside Downing Street with like thousands of young girls. We ended up changing two laws in a, you know, and that was within a, within a Tory government as well, who just immediately were like,

oh, yeah, obviously this is an issue. And I think there are some of these issues that are under now, but we need to be still, as much as we're talking about, you know, these kind of higher up issues that are more in the mind, we also need to go, look, there's a lot of work to be done. There are still countries where child marriage is legal. So individual change is powerful, but you can't change all of that, but you can always put tampons in the food bank,

call you don't, we can all do little things, not only the big things. Yeah, and also work to really help people women who are in danger as well. Yeah, I mean, obviously I totally agree with Scarlett and that is violence against women

is, of course, and the statistics that are associated with that is of course the most dangerous and the most urgent and the most scary thing to acknowledge and want to change. In terms of

terms of a thing that I think about a lot is women in the workplace and how much things have changed at such a rapid pace when you think that women's work history has, it really has not what's the middle of last century. We really don't have a lot to be working on, which is why I think there's this kind of confidence gap that's often referred to. And I think a really important thing now, and this is the same with any oppressed group of people, is that when they are invited to the table, it's making sure that they're made to feel like they're in an environment that supports them and makes them feel safe. So it's not enough just to fill quotas or to give a person a particular amount of power or to give someone a job. You have to make sure that

physically and mentally they are safe and supported. Yes. So that it isn't in the end window dressing. Exactly. Well, we appointed a woman but they couldn't cope. So now we have no women. Yeah, exactly. What's the maternity leave cover? What about? that bloke who's making sexist remarks to you? What about that person who bullies you? I think all those things are really, really important when you're thinking about women in the workplace rather than just filling quotas. I think that's really interesting because also I kind of think it's twofold. It's like what we were saying before about why do we think that, you know, what is the reason that these things don't happen? Why is there this gender pay gap right? That I feel

like sometimes these structures, like we can't always wait for them as well to, to want to like change that culture. And part of it as well, I think is, and it's, that's not like saying that doesn't need to happen, but equally I think when women can share information and knowledge around like, you know, how to navigate, how they did what they did. And we kind of have that happening alongside those like structural changes. And we're also kind of creating kind of networks and sharing and talking and literally telling someone how you negotiated your pay rise or how you started your podcast or like how you got into Oxford how you wrote your first book that kind of I think knowledge sharing as well is is really important alongside that stuff and as you mentioned

that's that's what builds legacy yeah completely you're right that's that's that is actually the answer and I think one of the things you said Scarlett is also very important I mean, all of this is important, but sometimes just having some data, you know, sometimes people are arguing emotionally with you because they don't want to acknowledge that it's true. But actually, sometimes, you know, we did this with the women's prize. It was just very straightforward in the year we launched the prize. In that year, 60% of books published in the UK were by women, but yet fewer than 9% of books ever shortlisted for major literary prizes were by women. they were the figures and actually when you said them

people you know people go oh yes women everywhere basically you know that was the subtext and the other one was well if women were any good they'd win so it was that twofold thing but I do think this data having actual facts sometimes it's not enough just to be emotionally literate about the conversation you need

and I think that's going to get this is like I'm stats are my biggest thing and I always say like come armed with stats and I think it's going to get more and more important because something I see with a lot of men in my life is that they are seeing all these women get a leg up in their view. They're seeing all these women succeed and be on panels and talk and they're like, you know, my fifth and your brother asked the other day, he was like, well, does everyone just hate white men? And I was like, he's 15. Like it's how he felt. He wasn't

even being antagonistic. He genuinely felt that way. And I think to remind people, like I have a whole list of stats on my card but to remind people's stats and to remind them that you know less than 20% of the world's land owners are women and that you know you're 25 more times more likely to get HIV if you're a young girl and to remind people of that that's the thing that whenever I'm having those annoying conversations with men who are like hasn't this all gone a bit far um you're like no it has not gone too far my worst friend that I hear is well if you're feminine Doesn't that mean you're anti-men? Why can't we be a humanist? That's about funerals, isn't it?

Simple answers to that one. I just go, yeah, I am. Antimamamam. You are famously part of the team behind the podcast mostly lit. Tell me about the process of launching that podcast and your voice is given the lack of diversity in publishing at the time. Is the industry looking any different now to when it is when you first started out? That's a really interesting question.

I think that interestingly, I guess when the podcast was initially launched, I think the conversations around diversity and publishing hadn't reached the volume and the velocity that they're at now. Because the podcast had actually started a few years ago actually, but it's only kind of since relaunching it. And that's kind of when I kind of came on board that I think we've kind of had the success that we've had. And I think also the interest from a mainstream publishing. and I think that's really interesting because I guess it's kind of serendipitous that we're a podcast that just happened to be created and hosted by, you know, black, British, you know, people.

And incidentally, you know, all those conversations are happening. So it feels quite serendipitous, but I think for us, it's part of the DNA of kind of just kind of thinking about being like effortlessly inclusive. And I think what's really interesting about the podcast is I feel like, especially as someone who has worked in book publishing in, mainstream publishing, like a lot, some of the things that we've been able to achieve. And in order, you know, reaching the audiences that we've reached, we've been able to achieve, like, what quite large and, like, really well-funded, you know, organisations haven't been able

to do. And I don't think necessarily about, you know, the people that necessarily work in those industries all the time. I think it's often also about the speed at which people want to kind of make the change happen. And when we're such a small and kind of agile team and, you know, we have our own interest, we have our own perspective, is quite easy as well, not to say no like a lot of the time it's and I think sometimes that's the problem I think in slightly large organisations people are quick to say no because maybe they don't understand the audiences or you know the content and I think what's really cool about mostly lit is that we have such a direct relationship with our audience we know they exist like often the questions

are you know you're in acquisitions meeting who will buy this book or who will be interested in this but we we see these people we're talking to them all the time we know where they're in the world. We know what the appetite is for. So we feel like really privileged and we kind of just want to share that I think with other people and and and because I think when people know, you get really excited and enthusiastic. So yeah. Yeah. And it's so true what you said about being effortlessly inclusive. Like when you are the demographic, you just live the demographic. You just know. We were talking about Fenty Beauty just just a minute ago and I have to raise it because it to me is sort of like really there's things you can take from that and apply that I think to any

industry and I think they've done so well to cater for everyone and to the point where certain shades in their huge infinite range of colours have literally sold out because that demographic has never been catered to in such a high-end way or in such a quality way right and I think it's about really honouring and like treating people with the consumer or whoever it is the reader with respect and really valuing like who they are and I think that's what that brand's been able to do and I think Like, we could all learn from that. Even mostly lit. Like, Fenty is just, like, so lit.

Like, you know. Your experiences are validated when you're visible. It's not to say they don't happen or they exist. You know, and that's, for so many people, they take that for granted because maybe that's the norm. But I think also as now we're living in such a global world and obviously we're connected by the internet, these stories and these voices are surfacing more and more.

And so there's no excuse at this point. Like, you can't say this doesn't exist. You can't say people don't want it because they'll tell you that they do. And I think how the internet has sort of democratised power to some extent, and especially for women. It's amazing to see different kinds of women as well. Like entering these spaces and creating platforms and doing things is just, yeah, it's really inspiring. It's amazing.

I'd like you, you all were asked, if you wouldn't mind, to share one book that you wanted to talk to the audience about. And, you know, a book that means a lot to you in different sort of ways. So can we, Clarissa, do you want to kick off with that? So the book I chose is a book called Blonde Roots by Bernardine Everisto. And this was the book actually when I was on the youth panel. We chose as our winning book. Oh, wow.

And it is a phenomenal book. It's very difficult to explain what the book is about because it is so, ingenious and it's so novel and it's a fiction and you know I think because I don't want to spoil the story for you guys but basically

sort of think the handmaiden's tale meets nauts and crosses with a bit of Jonathan Swift and Lewis Carroll will phone in so that's kind of how we describe it because it's kind of it's a

dystopian novel and it's kind of got this like dark comedy element to it. It's got a really kind of ingenious use of language. Everything is inverted in this book and really simple explanations and descriptions of this book have basically said it's the transatlantic slave trade but white people are the enslaved people and black people are doing the enslaving. But I think that's really kind of reductive way of talking about it and it's actually a book about power and it's a book about empathy. and it's a book about how a lot of the systems that are created because of power are very arbitrary. And we can kind of understand how they can be reconfigured.

Because of that, actually, we can kind of have empathy, I think. The reason I want to choose this book is because I think that I love reading nonfiction, but I also think especially when we are trying to kind of change the world and change our worlds and do things that haven't been done before and reconfigure kind of identity and we kind of need like books that tell really like epic, like ingenious, like innovative stories. And I think this should be like thought of as a feminist classic

and it does the job of I think intersectionality really well because there's a kind of interchange of identity that happens. And although the main character, for instance, is a white woman, and she experiences many of the things that black women experience in this kind of oppressive structure. And I think it's amazing. I really recommend it. Well, I think that they should reassue the jacket with your quote on the back. That would be much better.

And it was on the long list for what was called the Orange Prize then. That was the previous name of the prize in 2008. So I think that's a fantastic choice. Right, Scarlett, what have you got? So my book is called Three Guinea's and it's by Virginia Woolf. It's so niche and cool that it's actually not even published on its own anymore. So this is a copy of a Room of One's Own and then it's like hidden inside here. But if anyone's read a Room of One Zone, it's written in a similar format.

It's kind of very much an essay but she used to disguise her essays as fiction. And she had this kind of fictional persona that was like her, feminist self. Virginia Woolf actually wasn't a feminist. She didn't like the word and she didn't like the subject. But essentially, the story of three Guineas is a man writes to Wolf and asks her how to prevent war. It was kind of written just at the time the Second World War was rumbling.

And she says, when he writes to her, she says, this is a remarkable letter, a letter perhaps unique in the history of human correspondence since when before has an educated man asked a woman how, in her opinion, war can be prevented. and from then on she has this idea of she has three guineas and what would she give them to in order to prevent war and it's the most incredible book, I'm so obsessive of Ginny Wolff in case you can't tell, it's the most incredible book because she basically talks about how

it's about systems of power and it's about how she basically summarised that in order to ask a woman to end war the entire system of the way that we live would have to change and you can't just, she's saying what we all talk about now which is you can't just get women to replicate what men have done and give women the education that men have had and make them fulfil the same jobs and send them to war in the same way because the way that women see the world is so fundamentally different.

And if they were given the chance to create a system of power, it would be so fundamentally different from the patriarchal system that men have made that war would never even happen. And it's so incredible. It was so ahead of its time and it's so beautifully written. And there's a line in it that's, as a woman, I have no country, in my country is the whole world, which is kind of the most famous quote from it. I have this amazing friend called Alar Marabit, who is a UNS-C-G advocate,

and she is one of the few women in the world who is involved with a lot of peace processes. And she talks about the fact that between 1990 and 2017, women constituted only 2% of mediators in peace process, like peace negotiations and peace processes. And when women participate in peace processes, the resulting agreement is, 35 times more likely to last longer than 15 years. And women's involvement in peace process makes them 64% less likely to fail. So actually, there is proof that when you get women involved with war and with negotiating these things, it's better because we have this different view.

And one of my favourite things about Wolf is that she has these. She really does believe that women and men are different, but she doesn't believe that's a bad thing. and she actually thinks that we kind of have these advances that men don't have. And I love femininity and I love being female. I think it's something that got left out of the feminist movement for a long time, but that she was kind of saying right at the beginning. It's amazing. You've sold that very well as well.

You see, this is fantastic. Right, Dolly, your choice. Mine is The Rules Do Not Apply by Ariel Levy. It's a memoir, and she is a writer for the New Yorker, and she writes, you're probably familiar with her work, she writes kind of very penetrating, investigative features, and she writes brilliant, very rigorous profiles. And this memoir, for me, is such an important,

I mean, it's a beautifully written book and a compelling and heartbreaking story. But for me, it is a feminist text because she talks at the beginning about when she has her interview for the day, New Yorker and David Remnick asks her what it is she writes and what it is she wants to write and she says I write about women who want a lot who ask for a lot who demand a lot from their life which is something I identify with and I think it's something that should be documented unapologetically

and it is her life is one that is lived with so much ambition and bravery particularly in the early chapters talking about her pursuit of writing and learning the craft. And then she talks about the nature of desire and female sexuality in a way that I found incredibly radical to read. And then she has to face an enormous, enormous, unthinkable trauma in the book and the visceral nature of her writing around it and her absolute truth-telling in sharing that story. I just found to be incredibly bold and brave

and a service actually for other women and for the conversation. Yeah, the cultural conversation. So I loved it so much. It's not like a fun, light, easy read. But we all have Eat, Pray, Love on our shelves. So this can be filed, which I also adore, so it can be filed right next to it.

Filed right there, sir. That's brilliant. Right, we do have time for some questions. Right, does anybody want to get us going? After this, a perceptive audience member realized Kate hadn't yet made a suggestion. That's very sneaky of you. Well, if I had chosen one within the context that we're talking about, I think I am very interested in the difference, in generational differences in feminism,

as somebody who was very disappointed at the end of third wave feminism, when it kind of went and then joyously, suddenly, there was a new generation and generations coming up who were calling themselves feminist, but there was a period of about 20 years where nobody would use the word.

I mean, it was, you know, the lie had been bought, which is, if you need it, it's because you're no good at anything. And that had been absorbed in, and it did go away. So I chose one of the, I think, the great 70s feminist classics, which is about what it means to be a woman living

and all the structures would be Marilyn French's, the women's room. Because when I read that, I thought, oh my God. And it really was eye-opening, or possibly Tony Morrison's the bluest eye, because I think I learned more than just about feminism in that. Anyway, that was very sneaky of you. Thank you. Another woman in the audience wondered about the dangers of echo chambers. In my personal life, I had a situation where working and publishing, I sort of came into contact with someone who

kind of shared part of my identity and was kind of telling their story and it was, and it was an I'd never heard of this kind of story. Basically, I read this story and I didn't agree with

everything that was said. I didn't agree with it, but I had to accept it because that was that person's lived experience. And there were things that I took from that in not agreeing with everything, but there were moments in that story that I really identified with. And I kind of went into it, not wanting to read it, because I was like, oh, this is so, I just don't subscribe to this.

How can you kind of have this outlook? But I did. And I think that's important sometimes, not because as you say, like some of these, it's a survival, it's kind of protective. But I do think we have lost because of the kind of magnitude of the internet. in some cases like just the really like simple life skill of talking to people who don't have the same view as you and actually it's that thing of things can change and you can start at a point where you know that you are kind of opposing but you may come to some sort of resolution and I think that I actually saw this really

interesting video by this academic called Michael Eric Dyson and he was saying that cancel culture is a patriarchal white supremacist concept, this idea that you can kind of like incite this violence of like cancelling, because their reality is different from yours. I think he kind of, he didn't say that exactly, but I'm kind of paraphrasing, but that's kind of what I understood and that actually that that's quite violent sometimes. Like it doesn't feel like it. Totally. I do you know what I mean? I do you think cancelled culture and echo chambers in my head at least, they're different. I despise cancelled culture and I think it's. like ruining so much of these beautiful movements are being tarnished by this horrible act

where we hold people accountable for one decision they made or one thing that they said. But I think it's sort of like it's sort of a consequence of the echo chambers, right? That if you have, you live in a world or you create this bubble where you're not engaging and then you kind of have that like it's kind of, but it's interesting. I think we can engage, you know, everyone has the choice to do it when they want to. There's no one way to do it, I think. I'm endlessly wary of the echo chamber. I remember when I was about 25,

I unearthed the information that I had a friend who was a secret Tory, who came out to all of us. And all we did was kind of endlessly berate her and slag her off for years. And I remember she said to me once, do you know why I vote Tory? I was like, no, I just said, because you've never, ever asked me.

And it was so simple in my head that it was like, you're a baddie and I'm a goody. My politics is like Ken Loach and giving my seat to old ladies on the bus and I'm, you know, red t-shirts and John Prescott, I'm a goody, you're a baddie, I'm empathy, you're not. And it's like such a simple, self-indulgent way of looking at the world. and truly I believe, I mean I could really rant about this, I'll keep it short. Truly, I believe the mess that we are in, both with Brexit and with Trump, is that people on the other side of me politically feel patronised, and they feel like they haven't been heard, and they feel like all their power and agency have been taken away,

and their punk move to the world as right-wingers going out and voting, because a lot of my generation do a lot of good talking and tweet, but they don't bloody vote. And a lot of them, this is why we end up talking all the time about the fact that they didn't know what they were voting for. I think it was a protest move. So I think we've got to be really careful about echo chambers, sneering and patronising, not listening,

and creating really extremist movements. That's why I think. Yeah, I think that's a very good point. You three have been incredibly inspiring, and it's been very interesting, just sharing lots of things that we can think about to take the conversations further because there are lots of things we've not talked about

this evening we haven't had a chance we haven't talked about food we haven't talked about fashion we haven't talked about beauty different types of all of these sorts of things so many more book bar events I feel coming up you three will regret that I have your emails but I do need to bring it to an end not leastful because I think this is beautiful that Bailey's in the ice cream is here which I feel that is the spirit of the women's prize

which is about celebration in the end we are only all here because we all share a love of reading. The way that we can honour and amplify women's voices is to read their work. Borrow it, buy it, share it. But it's all about getting the other voices, listening to them, and getting great women's voices out there. So thank you very much for coming and helping launch this evening.

But the most important thing is to say thank you to the incredible panel. To Clarissa Pabby, to Scarlet Curtis and to Dolly Alderton. Thank you all very much. I found tonight really engaging and really illuminating, not least because we didn't just end up discussing millennial feminism. We talked quite a bit about Gen Z feminism as well. A demographic, I have to admit, I am completely out of the age for, so I found especially interesting.

Thank you for joining me here at Bailey's Book Bar. I'm Zing Singh, and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast, produced by Fremantle. Make sure to click subscribe so next week's episode flies over to you when it's fresh and new, and please drop us a review. We need all your help.

to get it up the charts so people can find us and so we can keep honoring women's creativity.