Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S2 Ep10: Bookshelfie: Naga Munchetty

Episode Date: June 5, 2020

In this episode Zing Tsjeng is joined by Naga Munchetty, who takes us on a tour of her bookshelves and tells us her five favourite books by women. Naga is a BBC presenter and journalist, she has fronted many programmes including Newsnight, The Victoria Derbyshire Show and of course you’ll be familiar with her presenting BBC Breakfast. Before joining the BBC, she worked for the Evening Standard, The Observer, Bloomberg and Channel 4 News. She’s talented away from the newsroom too - in 2016 she was a judge for the Women’s Prize for Fiction when Lisa McInerney’s The Glorious Heresies was crowned the winner and in the same year she also danced her way around the Strictly Come Dancing studio. Naga's book choices are: Forever by Judy Blume Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte A little Life by Hanya Yanahigara The Apology by Eve Ensler She Came to Stay by Simone de Beauvior Every fortnight, join Zing Tsjeng, editor at VICE, and inspirational guests, including Dolly Alderton, Stanley Tucci, Liv Little and Scarlett Curtis as they celebrate the best fiction written by women. They'll discuss the diverse back-catalogue of Women’s Prize-winning books spanning a generation, explore the life-changing books that sit on other women’s bookshelves and talk about what the future holds for women writing today. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and this series will also take you behind the scenes throughout 2020 as we explore the history of the Prize in its 25th year and gain unique access to the shortlisted authors and the 2020 Prize winner. Sit back and enjoy. This podcast is produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices, and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Zing Singh, your host for Season 2 of the Women's Prize podcast, coming to you every fortnight throughout 2020. You've joined me for a special bookshelfy episode in which we ask an inspiring woman to share the story of her life through five brilliant books by women. Welcome back to another episode of Bookshelfy, recorded during the coronavirus lockdown. So don't worry, we are still practicing safe social distancing. And this episode is recorded remotely through the magic of technology. My guest today is Nagger Manchetti, the BBC presenter and journalist. Naga has fronted many programs, including Newsnight, the Victoria Derbyshire show.

And of course, you'll be familiar with her warm presenting style on BBC breakfast. Before joining the BBC, she worked for the evening standards. the observer Bloomberg and Channel 4 News. And she is also highly talented away from the newsroom. In 2016, she was a judge for the Women's Prize for Fiction when Lisa McInner News, the glorious heresies, took the crown. Welcome to the Women's Prize podcast. Thank you, Singh.

Very nice welcome as well. Thank you very much for that. I don't think I'm often described as warm. I'm going to take that today. I mean, I feel like being warm is one of the prerequisites for getting on strictly come dancing, no? Nah. I mean, having watched some of the contestants on that show,

it definitely seems that dancing is not considered a prerequisite either. Well, let's put it this way. If I was warm, I think I would have lasted as longer than I did. Did you still have a good time on the show, though? Oh, you know what? I met some great people and I loved the training. The training for me was the fun big, because I love learning something new.

And I love trying really hard to be better at some. something. So, you know, one of my mottoes is be the best you can be. So, you know, and one of my, one of the things that I think about when I'm doing, going to work or doing my job is, have I done it to the best of my ability? Even if I play golf, if I go for a run, have I done it to the best of my ability, whether my body's working, whether my mind is working, whether I'm tired or not, just be your best. So if you're doing that, for me, I get some satisfaction out of that, and that's when I enjoy something, when I know I've given it my best shot. Right. And do you to remember any of the moves from Strictly.

I'll let you into a secret. Yeah. You don't learn to dance necessarily. You learn a routine. So just because you've danced the tango or a tango doesn't mean you can go out and do a Jamie Lee, Curtis, Arnold Schwarzenegger, you know, type tango. What was that film?

Oh, it was a brilliant film. It was when he was a spy and she became a spy. I can't remember it. But doesn't mean you can dance the tango. go. Charleston, I did really enjoy it. It's my favourite dance. So I can do some Charleston moves. And the waltz, I could, I cannot waltz with any grace whatsoever. Right. So you learn a routine. So right. Take with that what you will. But see me in a club dancing. I'm all out there. I'm a good dancer in a club. And at a wedding. Those are the two most important places you can dance. Of course. Of course.

So welcome to bookshelfy. Part of bookshelfy is we are going through many guests, including past judges of the prize and asking them about some of the books that they hold very close to their hearts by female authors. This has been very traumatic choosing the books. And you've actually distressed me because there are books I wanted to keep in or put in and then I didn't know what to take out and I got upset with the books that I really think are important to be mentioned and have shaped my life and shaped my reading experience and I couldn't because you limited me to five, which I think is cruel. I'm sorry. I feel like with this, with this particular kind of format, we could honestly have gone to 10, 20 books. People actually

said they would prefer it that way. But sadly, the constraints of podcasting mean we can't just, I mean, we could go on and on. But, you know, I feel like for the listeners' sake, we've got to cut it down to five. That's fair enough. But I still would like to put down on the record that you have caused me distress over this. Well, as a journalist, you know all about the magic. of good editing and cutting so you know we're going to keep things brief but you can send well if you want you can email me the full list um i would love to know what the full list is there's no full list there's just i probably would have gone to 10 or nine but it's fine i've it's a good discipline to get into to go down to five so the first book you picked um is a classic it's forever by judy bloom

yes so it's funny i was looking up when this was published and it was published the year I was born 1975 and Judy Bloom so when I grew up I was a voracious reader from as soon as I could start reading

probably my mum would say I was probably reading at one but I probably wasn't reading properly until I was about seven and I remember always being always reading books by Inid Blighton and various children's authors and then I got to Judy Blume

and I read forever and forever is basically a slow journey into two young people having sex and a girl losing her virginity. And I remember reading it about maybe 12, 13. And in my world, that moment was a very long way away. But I had grown up in an environment where we didn't talk about sex. There was no way my parents were going to discuss sex with me. and the clumsiness of sex. It was always taboo.

You know, my parents, if there was a kissing scene on television, they'd turn it off or, you know, they'd be embarrassed, as I'm sure many people can relate to. So Forever was one of those books where, you know, these two young people meet, I think it's a New Year's party, and the relationship grows, and there's some pressure from the boy to the girl, on the girl.

to have sex and how she feels about it. And all those thoughts that you think are unnatural or dramatic or over the top, I think Judy Blume just managed to capture. And although it was going to be such a long way away for me, in reality, having sex, in terms of years, it just made me realise that I wasn't going to be alone in my thoughts when that happened. And Judy Blume, I read all of Judy Blum's books. I remember the other one that really touched me was,

are you there, God? it's me, Margaret, because it spoke about periods. And that was again, and something else that we just didn't talk about when I was growing up. It's interesting because I also have Asian parents and we never talked about any of this. We never talked about periods. You never talked about sex. I think at one point my mum had to throw a book at me that she'd bequeathed onto my older brother, which I then inherited, which in itself was very weird, now that they look back on it.

And that was my sole introduction into sex periods, whatever. very much learned about all this stuff through books as well, same as you. And your friends. And that's almost one of the most unreliable sources of information because as you look back now, you know, half of them weren't telling the truth or were putting such a gloss on their first time or what it felt like, which isn't really what you spoke about, you know, just it was always good, wasn't it? It was never clumsy.

It was never spoken about before or planned when you're that young because you don't have the maturity for it. And my parents, I remember when I first started menstruating, it was a source of great embarrassment and pain and lack of understanding. And I don't blame my mum or my dad for this. It was just their culture. It was something that wasn't spoken about. So the support I needed and knowledge I needed had to come from books like Forever and Are You There, God, it's me, Margaret, or Just 17 or Ms. Magazine. I don't know if those were your area, but those were their...

the things that educated me. And your mum and dad, so your mum came from India and your dad originally came from Mauritius in the 70s. Yeah. They came over and they went to Wales. They were studying, mum was studying dentistry, dad was studying nursing. They both became nurses. They met, they got engaged. And then they've always been a bit cagey about whether or not they were pregnant before they got married or after, you can imagine. Asian parents. But they, you know, got married, moved to London, got married and had me. And they both had careers as nurses. And so it was really interesting them as nurses, considering how compassionate and understanding and smart they were about medical knowledge, yet how uncomfortable they were about talking about it to their daughters.

Right. So they had two daughters, a few daughters. Two. Me and my sister. My sister's 22 months younger than me. So I'm the oldest. So I'm the one who had to break them in, basically. Right.

You can imagine the rounds. Did they talk to your younger sister about anything or? No, no, I don't think so. I think she would learn from me and her friends and my friends would talk to her if need be. Look, it sounds awful. It sounds as if I'm saying my parents didn't do a good job. They did. They did the best they can.

That was their work ethic. and life ethic. You do the best you can, you can, which is, you know, what I've said I do in my everyday life. But they didn't have conversations like that. I remember talking to my mum, actually. We did a week about the menopause on BBC Breakfast to break down the taboos around the menopause. And I remember talking to my mum about it and she said, you know, I never spoke to my mom about this. I didn't know she'd gone through it and her mum's passed away now.

the only person I recently spoke to about it was my, the next oldest sister to her. She said, and when she was going through it, Mom was so concerned and so confused about what was happening to her body in terms of her emotional, mental state, as well as that, you know, what happens physically. It's almost like what happens physically is almost secondary to what happens emotionally in terms of tiredness, fatigue. And it was a learning experience for her because her generation didn't talk about things and don't naturally feel comfortable talking about these things. It's almost like Judy Blume needs to come back and write a book about the menopause just to complete the kind of progression from forever all the way into the menopause.

Absolutely. I mean, and there are books now, you know, but they're, I'd be really interested. I'm sure there's one out there. I'd be really interesting because I'm 45 now. I'd be really interested to read about women's experiences or a story about how those anxieties affect life, affect where you see yourself in life, because it's not just that you can't have children. That doesn't bother me because I haven't had children or ever wanted children. Well, not in recent years. But I think just reading a story about someone who experiences that honestly and with, without fear.

I mean, it almost has to be done through fiction, doesn't it? Yeah, I think that's what we're discovering on the Women's Prize podcast is that just by books, through books, you can actually discuss so many things that lots of people would never feel comfortable personally discussing. I completely agree. And you can put so many people's different experiences and there'd be no guilt because you're allowed to dislike a character.

You're allowed to write a character. you know, create a character that is quite awful because people, especially me, I love those horrible characters. You know, I don't like, I don't particularly read a book to see if I can relate to someone. I read a book almost to discover new things about character and to discover what's allowed to be said that you wouldn't necessarily say out loud. And I think, yeah, that's an example of menopause and the traumas of it. Absolutely.

I'm sure there's one out there. Well, the second book you picked was Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte. Now, I think you read this when you were 16. Yeah, 15, 15 or 16. I'll tell you what this book did for me. This book showed me that women do not have to be likable. That women can be hateful. And that love isn't glorious.

And I sound so dark by saying that. you know, dark of heart, so to speak, but it's, it just, Kathy is a hateful character. Heathcliff, of course, is hateful and angry and bitter and wicked. But Kathy is cruel, and I love her. I absolutely love her. I love her fire. I love her spark. I love her cruelty.

I love, and I loved the fact that I, I, I, I love her. This was the first love story I ever read, which was so full of passion and anger and deliberate pain inflicted on each other, which loving couples do, couples in love do to each other. And it's all part of the process. And I loved that love could be so ugly and unashamedly ugly. Does that sound really awful? No. I think that's a genuinely really insightful reading of what. Wuthering Heights because it's a book that, you know, almost everyone's read and everyone, you know, at some point has studied it. But I love that you picked up on the cruelty in the relationship. Yeah, and the cruelty to other people. And if you were kind, you were weak. If you were,

you know, generous, you were weak, you know, and if if you weren't brutal, you weren't going to survive. And I just thought it was a really interesting lesson. And also when you read about the history of Emily Bronte and how Charlotte Bronte described her and what, you know, and Charlotte Bronte almost dismissed Emily Bronte as slightly mad, you know, and almost apologized for the book, the book's existence to distance herself from it because women weren't, because she wrote it under a pseudonym, I think, initially. She, women weren't supposed to write books like this. Women weren't supposed to write, you know, and so, and to, and to skirt so closely to

violent and oppressive sex and brutal behaviour of men towards women. I thought that was really brave. And also the fact that Cathy, in my point of view, is the strongest character. And her legacy of when she passes and the trauma she inflicts on those she leaves behind demonstrates her strength. So she was a wickedly strong woman. whether she was a force of good or not is irrelevant to me. It was her strength that I took.

And when you're 16 as well or 15, that is such a strong character to encounter when you're just a girl still. Yes, but it's liberating. It's liberating because all you're told is that love is, you know, sweetness and light and that you succumb to the tall, gallant, you know, charming man and you've been. bend to his will and screw that. He wants to do that. And that's what Wuthering Heights tells you. Kathy didn't bend. Do you have a kind of instance when you're like a teenager or younger,

when you were expected to go do one thing and you did the complete other? Every day of my life, I think. Right. I think every day of my life. I think I caused my parents so much grief. Be it, I remember going to a family party and the family friends, who are largely Mauritian, my dad's friend, we'd go and I remember wearing ripped jeans once to one of my uncles. We called everyone uncles, I'm sure, sing, you'll relate to that. You call everyone an auntie or an uncle. Everyone's an auntie, everyone's an uncle. And they treat you as if they're your parents. They will smack you if they think you've misbehaved or they will tell you off.

There's no shame in that. That is their given right. and I remember going wearing ripped jeans and my mum was like, you're not going dress like that, and I said, well, I don't go. This is what I want to wear, this is in fashion. And my mum claiming I brought great shame on her, you know, because people have made comments.

And I would do things like that just to rebel, even if it could be in the smallest way. And I think I just dug my heels in every turn I could because I just couldn't bear it. And my mum and dad got, oh, I felt so sorry for them because they would just, we would butt head so much. But now, my mum, and I've learned that I got this from my mum, actually. My mum is so proud of the woman I'm becoming or I'm turning into

because she's so proud that I stand up and say what I think, regardless. I don't want to go out and hurt anyone, absolutely not, but I just will not bend if I think something is right. When did you realise that you wanted to be a journalist? Really late on. I had no clue about what I wanted to be. I did English at university because I was one of those annoying kids that was kind of good at everything and had done GCSE maths, early music and things like that. And I didn't know what I wanted to be, what I wanted to do.

And I'd had a little bit of a rebellion kind of 17, 18, and then decided that I wasn't going to get the grades to get into the university. I wanted and I was doing five A levels. So I changed and changed my A levels. I stuck with English and maths. and it changed the others. And then when it got, came around to choosing my university calls,

my parents wanted me to do either law or, you know, medicine or be a vet. And I just couldn't bear the thought of it. I couldn't bear the thought of it. And I just loved English. So I studied English. And I remember my mum saying, what on earth are you going to be a poet, a bloody poet? And I went, if I have to be.

I said, but no, I can use it for lots of things. And then it was when I was at Leeds University, I got involved as a student paper. And just found that the one thing I've known I always am is curious. And as much as I'm nervous of meeting new people, I am curious about stories. So I joined the student paper, and then I was getting lots of work experience at the Times, at the observer of various publications. And then got on to the city course, the post-grad for newspaper journalism. and honestly I only applied to it because I didn't want to go out and work.

So I had to pay for the course, which I did. I took out a loan and paid for it and I moved back home, which was hell at the time after spending three years at university being completely independent, or so you think. But yeah, just kind of got into that and then got my first job at the evening standard, then the Observer, then found TV, and just kind of worked my way through. And what I realized is I have a very short detention span. So working for the Observer was brilliant.

the massive learning curve, but print was too slow for me, whereas television was quick and fast turnaround, and it suited my mind, which is why now I'm in the best job in the world, because it's like you cram loads of information. You have like a level, a fairly, you know, medium to high level of knowledge in terms of news, but you have to cram and you have to have that kind of memory

that keeps so much detail in. But by the end of breakfast, it's dropped out. By 1130, honestly, I probably couldn't remember our top three headlines. But my brain empties and is ready for the next day. And that is what enlivens me. That's what keeps me going, not kind of plodding away on the same story for days. This podcast is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish cream. Bailey's is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction

by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Baileys is a perfect adult treat, whether in coffee, over ice cream or paired with your favorite book. Official announcement, sunshine is coming our way. Celebrate the changing seasons and the sweet taste of spring with a baileys on ice alongside your favourite shortlisted book. Or if you'd prefer a vegan treat, try Baileys Almand for the delicate taste of almond with a blend of real vanilla. Do you ever feel a kind of rivalry with other breakfast TV presenters or do you kind of feel what you do is separate to that?

No, there is absolutely no point to us feeling rivalry against each other. Because if you look at the four main breakfast presenters, we're all so different. All so different. So one thing I learned very early on is, I'm not going to try to be like anyone else. I can only be me. The other thing I learned really early on, when I decided to go in front of the camera from being behind the camera,

because I spent a lot of time as a producer and an editor, was, and my husband told me this, you have to learn to get a thick skin. Because I used to be one of those people who would agonise about whether someone liked me or whether they thought I was good enough. And I still do, obviously, appreciate criticism and take it on board. But we are Marmite. So some people really like me.

It's really funny, like we said at the start, of this you described me as warm and I was surprised because other people think I'm a cold whatever you want to say person you know and they absolutely prefer one of the other three presenters to me but you can't help people you know you can please some of the people some of the time you can't please all the people all the time whatever the phrase is so in terms of rivalry no the other thing is breakfast is a team thing it's a team program that program that will survive whether one of us or four of us leave. No one is bigger than that program. From the editor to the news assistant or the meeting greet, we are all indispensable. We are all

dispensable. Absolutely. No one's indispensable. So what's the point in having these rivalries within the program? Because we're all working to one thing to make sure that program is brilliant. and serves our audience. So in answer to your question, it was about rivalries, wasn't it? I don't have any. No, I don't. Because it's unhealthy as well.

Why compare yourself to other people? You're never going to win if you keep comparing yourself to other people. How do you get to a point where you don't care about what other people think, though? I think you don't get to the point where you don't care. I think you get to the point where you accept that you cannot please everyone.

And you have to have to have, good family, good friends and people you trust around you who you can bounce criticism that's levied against you off and expect them to answer fairly, knowing that they love you but also knowing that they will tell you if you're a dick but you don't ever not care. You just have to take it you have to keep things in perspective. So was this the kind of approach you had, you know, when you famously said you were furious about Donald Trump telling those four congresswomen to quote unquote go home? And, you know, it was a subject of a complaint, which was then later overturned by the BBC. Was this like how, you know, you approached something happening like that?

Or was that something that kind of threw you for six? I think you have to be really careful with answering this question because one, it's been and gone. Yeah. And it's not a particular chapter I feel I need to talk about a lot. Two, I think, and you will know this from the way broadcasters are scrutinized, particularly at this moment in time with coronavirus and how journalists are being accused or praised for their handling of the government message. again it works both ways

what we do and I've always been proud of myself like this is we are facilitators we facilitate interviews to get other people's views out we try to do this with balance and counter argument and we are not there to offer an opinion

when those comments were made an interview had taken place with a campaign manager for Donald Trump the President of the United States. In that interview, she had said that she felt uncomfortable and thought that also he used this language to inflame discussion, to inflame an argument. My comments, the comments that were picked up upon, were, it is not okay, and I'm not

quoting verbatim, it's not okay to use language like that or skirt around the issue or skirt around using language like that. That's what caused upset. Unfortunately, the way social media works, the way the world works, the media works, that it wasn't put into context. Eventually it was. So as far as I'm concerned,

I did not offer an opinion. However, I was reflecting on what she had said and is obvious. However, I sit on that sofa as a woman, as a person of colour from an ethnic minority, who is not a robot. And, you know, we're talking about Black Lives Matter now. We're talking about George Floyd. And just today I was on the phone to a colleague who is bereft at the moment. She is, you know, she is mixed race and she is bereft about trying to figure.

out how we are in a situation again where a man has been killed and the colour of his skin cannot be ignored in terms of the circumstances surrounding his death. We are not robots. We are not there to simply blankly read the news. That isn't our job. We are judging the tone of the morning we are judging the tone of those who are watching, we are judging what they need to know and informing them as neutrally, but with insight as much as we can. And if we voice, if we voice something which is obvious, you know, you can't have, you can't have someone say, the sky is pink, you know, in the middle of a blue sky day and challenge it. And then assert the fact that what on earth is this person seeing if he's not colourblind or she's not colourblind?

I think it's difficult though. And I utterly respect the BBC's. It's not even the BBC's rules, the rules of journalism. We are impartial, but we're not idiots. I like that as a kind of tagline for maybe the journalism school that you can set up that can be the tagline. Moving on. The third book that you picked is A Little Life by Hanya Yuna Higara, which is from the year when you were the judge for the Women's Prize for Fiction.

2015. How did you find that judging experience? So I will always thank Sophie Rayworth for getting me involved because she'd been a judge before. And she said it was the best thing she did and she was so jealous that she couldn't get to do it again because you don't get to do it again. And I was really dawned. at the thought of doing this. I was like, who'd care about what I think? But, you know, I was persuaded that it would be a good thing

and it would be fine and manageable. I've never read so much in eight months as I did. It was like having homework all the time. But an absolutely brilliant experience. And a little life got to the short list. And you, you know, it didn't win. But there was a very heated argument in that judging room

and that's all I'm allowed to say. Right. But I think a lot of readers will and listeners will be pleased that there was because this book became one of the best-selling books by a female author,

my woman author, that year. And it is a book and I very rarely have done this. It is a book I have bought, I think I bought something like 10 copies and gave to friends. and every person I, who's read it, who I gave it to, has been moved. I had a friend who listened to it, an audiobook actually, which is interesting,

because I haven't really bought into audiobooks yet, and rang up her friend at the time in fits of tears, and then messaged me going, what the hell have you done? What the hell have you done? How dare you bring this? And she was, you know, halfway through. This is unbelievably traumatic. this is not justified, this is not right.

This book is twisted and it is wrecking me. And I have never let go of this book. And I don't think I ever could. It moved me in such a way. I've only read it once. No, I've read it twice. I've read it twice because you had to read it again. I had to read it again.

But I've read it twice and I will never read it again because I remember so much of it. And I don't need to. I'm not going to ruin how this book broke my heart. it's interesting because so many people have such a visceral reaction to this book like I did by the end of the final page I was sobbing hysterically and I just don't remember a book that has managed to touch just many people some people are you know actually quite angry about the book because it's you know like your friend you know it's saying that it's wrecking them

yeah but that's just the power of the book I think but that's the joy isn't it the joy of life and the joy of being able to experience a moment. is having these highs and lows. That's what makes us human. It's a really good testament to the power of literature, whether or not you ended up liking the book or, you know, thinking that it was so emotional and so detailed.

It's impossible not to have an opinion. Well, I also think as well that, Hanya, from what I understand, allowed very little editing of the book because it's a big book. I've got it in front of me. I mean, how many pages is this? 720.

A big book. It's a hefty book. And many of the arguments where this could have been edited and it's like you're just floating with the words kind of coming at you and the stories being in gentle waves at times before kind of coming to crescendos and peaks.

You slip into it, don't you? And you can almost let yourself be absorbed in long description that may not be necessary. Yes, of course you can tighten everything. But I thought it was a luxurious indulgence. And I'm quite pleased for her that she stuck by her guns.

Because I think any, if it was too tightly edited, you'd have lost the joy of it. Exactly. And I think because it's such a tragic story, you have to have the good bits in it as well. Yes. You have the lovely depictions of friendship. Yes.

And that's what it's about. That is what it's about. It's about friendship. It's absolutely about friendship And friendship, you know, there's lots of sex in it, there's lots of debauchery for want of a better word, and there's lots of tragedy. It's ultimately about what friendship means.

And I found it very interesting that was written about the four main characters of men, written by women. And the men who I've given this book to were surprised it was written by a woman because they think that they, that she's got the men and their emotions. And male friendship as well.

Yes. I mean, it's so powerful. And it will never, it will never leave my bookshelf and it will never, honestly, I'm sure I've said this, it will never leave my heart. I know. By the end of that final page, you are completely, completely destroyed. You're spent. You're exhausted. And it does, the fact that it doesn't leave you. You know, how many years is it on now is it? I mean, it really doesn't feel like five years since I read this book. I know. I mean, it's, it's funny because we'll come on to your fourth book, which is also to discuss quite. traumatic thing. So it's Eve Endsler's The Apology. You're going to have to describe this book to me because I have read them vagina monologues. I actually starred in a probably quite badly looking back on it produced version of it at university, but I've not read the apology. The apology, the reason I came across the apology is, and like you, I love the vagina monologues. I haven't read the

vagina monologues. I went to see the vagina monologues many, many, many, many years ago. And one of the things that stuck with me from the vagina monologues was the way to embrace a word that both men and women find really offensive and it's a word I use a lot. And I'm not going to say it on the podcast, but anyone who knows a vagina monologues will know that there is an elongation and celebration of a four-letter word. So I always admired Eve Ensler for that. And just the way she got all these women's experiences put out, laid out in the vagina monologue. So when, on breakfast, we interview all we used to, times of change now, but we used to interview a lot of authors. And Eve Encela popped up, and it was this book, The Apology. And I was really excited because of the vagina monologues.

And often, trust me, I read a lot of books. I used to have to read three or four, four books a week, four. breakfast and lots of them weren't great right and you'd always wish when you saw your list of books you saw your pile of books that you had to read i always like reading paper books you'd always hope that one was short and they inevitably weren't and this book is just over a hundred pages i think yeah 112 pages it's a short book what this book is is evansela was sexually and physically abused by her father and that has shaped wrecked and strengthened her.

And he died many, many years ago. And you know what she's done. She's been an activist. She has written brilliant pieces, including vagina monologues. And what she has done is written a letter from her father's point of view about the abuse he meted out. And what she thinks he was thinking when from the age of five she had experience of sexual and then physical abuse later on and the battle of the wills.

And he never apologised to her. And when I interviewed Eva Insler, I don't often get emotional, but I, she's a ridiculously strong woman, but damaged woman by her own admission. and it moved me and it's almost an act of forgiveness and understanding which I could never do having read her experiences absolutely never do but she's done it as a step towards trying to heal herself

and heal the pain that her experience has caused her father caused and also the betrayal to certain extent of her mother who could see this going on. The physical abuse, certainly. It just moved me. And the bravery of a woman coming on national television or writing it down, forget the TV part, just writing it down

and saying, this is it, this is what has shaped me and this is why I am, who I am. I thought it was one of the bravest books I've ever read, bravest things I've ever seen. What was she like on BBC Breakfast? bundle of energy. Bundle of energy, smart, self-deprecating, intuitive and incisive and really quick-witted and warm. She's warm, really warm.

And I imagine she felt very vulnerable because you've put something out so personal, you know, out there and she would have had a lot of support, I'm sure, from her publisher and her agent and all those people and her family and loved ones. But I really liked her. I really, really, really liked her. I very, really like people I interview. But she, I did. You must get to meet a lot of amazing women. Yes.

Through your job. Of course. I've interviewed one of the highlights. Well, actually, you know, there are two types of women I've enjoyed interviewing. Those are the women, there are those women who are obviously. obviously a highlight. So I've interviewed Hillary Clinton. And I interviewed her before she had announced she was running for the presidency, for candidacy, for the presidency. And I was very impressed by her. Forget the politics. You will never know my politics. I'm a floating voter anyway, but you will never know my politics. But I was very impressed with her and also, you know, slightly daunted.

This is an established family in politics. And this is a woman I was interviewing and she knew her stuff and she'd been well briefed and she was smart and so there are those kinds and there are brilliant um female politicians and female business people and you know female authors all of those the women that I suppose that impressed me the most are the ones who are campaigners or mothers daughters sisters who are trying to make the world a better place and trying to correct some of the injustices that have been put upon certain parts of society and who have had to fight the system and it was still fighting, fighting for their families and fighting for justice. Those are the women that really impress me

and who are so strong because they don't have the power of publicity and fame and profile, yet they achieve amazing things. I mean, I kind of felt like that when, you know, you were among that group of BBC women who went and fought for equal pay. I don't know if you necessarily see yourself in that way. No, of course I don't. Of course I don't. It wasn't just, I will make this clear, it wasn't just women who were fighting for equal pay. There are a hell of a lot of men in our industry

and obviously in life who believe in equal pay. Probably more who believe in it than don't. But there is a system, there is an establishment, and there is a way it's always been where establishments all around in all different industries have kind of got used to the fact that we don't share, in this country, we don't share parent pay information easily. It's always been a secret, hasn't it?

You go to the States and everyone go, what are you earning? And they kind of say, whereas in this country we don't do that. We don't talk about money and we don't kind of divulge that kind of stuff. And that's changing. but it wasn't just women who were supporting women when it came to equal pay. However, it was down to a group of women to push the agenda forward and challenge what was a great wrong. And then it was down to those men who were paid more,

who had never been in the situation before where they had to share their salaries, to divulge their salaries so that we had something to work on. And then it was up to a group of women. And I am not part of that group of women. I didn't do all that hard graft. I was there and I benefited from it and I lent my support, but I didn't do the hard graft to make sure that we said it wasn't good enough.

The situation wasn't good enough. And the fifth book that you've picked is actually by someone who did a lot to blest. lays that trail, it's by Simone de Beauvoir. Yeah. Her novel, she came to stay. If you want a book, which doesn't do very much, and is, I will say, very indulgent, my friend bought this for me, and she brought me a second-hand copy, and it was first published in France in 1943, and my friend brought me this because I was in a mood, a thinking mood, and she said read this

this is one of my favourite books and I read it when I was on holiday and I read it while I was it was last year I'm sure it was last year yeah it was last year and I read it when I had some time just to lie in the garden and read

and I would snatch moments and it was one of those books you know when you're really into a book and you think I must read it I'm really enjoying it this and you snatch moments like being on the tube or a train or you know you've got half

an hour. If I didn't have at least an hour, I wouldn't read it because it needed my attention and I loved the feeling of being emotionally drawn in irrationally or rationally to this book and being indulged. Does that make sense? No, I know what you mean. Sometimes you can't do those 10, five minute kind of page hops where you just dip in and dip out. You just need to commit to for a full hour. And this book, tiny, tiny, tiny writing in the edition I have, about 409 pages. It's the size of like a penguin classics book.

And honestly the writing's tiny. And I just couldn't skip a word. And it's about, it's a menagerie tour, an emotional menagerie twer. and it reflects on Simone de Beauvoir's life and her own personal relationship with Jean-Paul Sartre and affairs that were happening in their lives, lives. And it's about three people, there's a woman and her husband, and then a young girl who enters their life and becomes part of their relationships. They've become this trio.

And it is told from her point of view. And it, she goes through this trying to be aloof and trying to be almost, and I quote, grown up about it and matter of fact about it. And this is fine because she's never had problems with his dalliances or affairs before because it's strengthened their relationship because he always comes back to her. And this young girl, and then all three characters are despicable. So it almost goes back to Wuthering Heights. Almost goes back to Wuthering Heights.

They're despicable. You don't like any of them. They're horrible. Xavier is an annoying young girl who I just wanted to slap, not that I obviously condone violence. Francoise is pathetic in some ways and bitter and insecure, and Pierre is self-indulgent and selfish and ignorant of women's emotions and feelings. and or none of them.

I didn't like any of them. I was like addicted to their warped sense of being. It's very similar to Wuthering Heights for me and this twisted notion of love and dependency and bitterness and revenge. And I wallowed in all of it and I loved it. Interesting. Because I do feel like...

I do sound quite twisted, I think. No, I do think so. I think that, you know, we live in an age, where people, especially women, are expected to be really pristine and really perfect and involve the right ideas and the right looks and, you know, present themselves a certain way. Oh, well, I failed on that. But literature is one of the only places where, you know, you can demand someone and spend time with someone they find truly hateful.

Yes. And by the end of it, you might, you know, understand their point of view, sympathise, learn something new. And I don't think you actually get that experience very much now. I think there's this real, even when you talk to, if you talk to a child about writing a story, this whole thing about being a happy ending, life's not got happy endings all the time. Life's got beautiful moments. But happy endings aren't guaranteed.

And I think they set you up for a lot of disappointment if you think everything's going to have a happy ending. If you read a book kind of shows that life is raw and doesn't go and is never goes to plan. Life never goes to plan. And that's not me being bitter, twisted, horrible, whatever. It doesn't. And you shouldn't expect it to because that is life. It winds and it takes all these parts. And if you're lucky, you have the strength to accept it and go with it or have the strength to change things you can and accept that.

there are certain things you can't change. But life does not have happy endings all the time. Life has great bits and has some crappy bits. And I love books like this because they don't promise a fairy tale ending. I hate fairy tales. And I think your choices that you made for book Shelfy are great. Thank you. Even though you said you struggled with them.

Well, you know, I could give you a list. I will email you the list because I will email you the list because I I think you're a, I kind of like you because you're a hard, hard woman not letting me, you and your team are a hard, hard bunch not letting me have my way. But that's life. No fairy tales here. No. Which would you, out of the five, buy a copy and press into the hands of a friend?

A little life. Right. That doesn't mean it's my favourite out of the five. I want that on the record. But it is the one you would recommend. It's the one I think people should have had an experience of reading. And it is an experience, so it's definitely one I would agree with. Oh, I'm so pleased. I'm so pleased.

I know. I think more people should be subjected to the emotional roller coaster that is a little life. It's trauma. It's trauma and pure joy. I mean, highs and lows to the extremes. But I love that. I love that. That emotional indulgence. There's nothing better. I'm Zing Singh, you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast, brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. You definitely want to head to our website to find out more about the Reading Women Challenge, get exclusive video and audio content, and check out the hashtag Reading Women on Instagram and Twitter to join in the conversation around the 24 brilliant past winners of the Women's Prize for Fiction. Please click subscribe and don't forget to rate and review this podcast. It really helps spread the word about the future. your talent you've heard about today. Thanks very much for listening and see you next time.