Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S2 Ep12: #ReadingWomen: Family

Episode Date: June 30, 2020

In this episode Zing Tsjeng is joined by novelist and journalist, Anna James, musician and poet, Arlo Parks, and novelist and short story writer, Sophie Mackintosh. The theme of today's #ReadingWomen book club is family. The reading list: We Need to Talk about Kevin by Lionel Shriver, 2005 On Beauty by Zadie Smith, 2006 Home by Marilynne Robinson, 2009 Every fortnight, join Zing Tsjeng, editor at VICE, and inspirational guests, including Dolly Alderton, Stanley Tucci, Liv Little and Scarlett Curtis as they celebrate the best fiction written by women. They'll discuss the diverse back-catalogue of Women’s Prize-winning books spanning a generation, explore the life-changing books that sit on other women’s bookshelves and talk about what the future holds for women writing today. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and this series will also take you behind the scenes throughout 2020 as we explore the history of the Prize in its 25th year and gain unique access to the shortlisted authors and the 2020 Prize winner. Sit back and enjoy. This podcast is produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Zing Singh, your host for Season 2 of the Women's Prize podcast, coming to you every fortnight throughout 2020, our year of Reading Women. From Zadie Smith's White Teeth to Naomi Alderman's The Power, we're spotlighting all 24 women's prize-winning books during this podcast series with eight book club episodes in which our guests discuss three of the brilliant winning novels from past years.

And we want you to join the conversation. Go to hashtag Reading Women on Twitter and Instagram to share your thoughts as you read along and head to the Women's Prize website atwifixforfiction.co.com. To learn all about the 24 books plus lots more to set you off on your reading journey. Welcome back for another episode of Reading Women. We are still on lockdown and recording remotely and safely. So if you hear any minor issues of sound quality, please forgive us. I am recording this from the inside of a bunch of pillows.

I am joined today by some amazing guests. Anna James is a novelist and a journalist. Allo Parks is a musician and poet from London. And Sophie McIntosh is a novelist and short story writer. Welcome to the podcast, guys. Thank you. Hi. Thank you.

Hello. How has lockdown been treating you so far or post lockdown? I'm not quite sure what stage we're in now. Anna. Not too bad. I have had lots of deadlines to distract me. But it's, yes, it's a strange time to be reading, writing, just living, isn't it? Arlo, how was it for you?

I mean, I've been doing a lot of kind of press and interviews and stuff remotely and doing these live stream gigs, which are very, very strange, but, you know, trying to keep busy. Yeah, I've been doing a lot of remote things as well. I had quite like a busy summer lined up, but it's sort of strange. It's all kind of gone online. But yeah, I've been keeping busy. Today's book club theme is family.

So it's a wide topic that comes in many different shapes, forms and sizes. And to explore it, we're looking to the winners of the prize from 2005, 2006 and 2009. They were, we need to talk about Kevin by Lionel Shriver, on beauty by Zadie Smith, and home by Marilyn. and Robinson. How did you guys find reading all three books together? Anna? I must admit I had a kind of curious experience with these. I'd only read we need to talk about Kevin previously. It really, reading these three, it really made me interrogate and kind of analyze what I respond to in fiction, as none of them were kind of like, none of them are favorites. And I really enjoyed on beauty.

the other two didn't like don't connect with me and that's not to say I thought they were bad books particularly in the case of home I could absolutely like recognize the skill but the story didn't connect with me in the way that other fiction does and it really was kind of an interesting experience kind of thinking about why I wasn't sort of responding to them and what I do respond to in fiction oh interesting what about you arlo um I mean for me it was it was a similar story I mean I really really enjoyed on beauty. I'd read White Teeth by Zadie Smith before but I was reading all of them for the first

time essentially and I too also really gravitated to On Beauty I think the way that it explored the themes of like race and sexuality and education I found it very gripping but you're right as I was reading them I did as I was reading the other two books you know I found

value and skill and all of them but I didn't feel as gripped. And you're right. I mean, I actually, you know, wrote a few notes about, you know, what it seemed I was connecting to and what I felt kind of alienated by. So it was, it was, I learned more about myself as like a consumer of fiction, I think, through reading these books. That's so interesting.

I'm relieved that it, like, because that's really very much my experience as well. Sophie, what do you think? I think I had a similar experience as a reader, but also as a writer because I, I, I read On Beatty, I'm going to talk about Kevin for the first time when I was a teenager. And, you know, I think at the time reading them, I was like, oh, you know, these are, these are books that are in my shop and they're good and I enjoy them. And now it's kind of, especially with the Zadis-Spinner, I was just like, oh, my God, it's just amazing. Like, it was kind of so, it was familiar because I'd read it before, but I had just a lot more kind of appreciation for it. And so it was kind of an interesting experience to revisit those too.

and I really like Home as well by Marilyn Robinson. It's actually one I've been meaning to get to for a while and I really really liked it. I don't think I would have liked it so much as a teenager. I had to be older to appreciate it, I think. It's interesting because all these books are kind of from the 2000s and you're right. I think a lot of people come to them when they're teenagers

or even after they see a film adaptation. We need to talk about Kevin, I think, was adapted around the same time with Tilda Swinton and the lead character. Yeah, I mean, I'm personally. I mean, I'm 19, so I was coming to... Only 19. Yeah, I was coming to all the books through that teenage lens, I guess you could say in a way. And, you know, a lot of themes, like, you know, the idea of like motherhood and stuff was interesting

for me to see as somebody who's still, you know, quite young and hasn't really thought about that stuff that much. And how have you guys been finding the experience of lockdown reading in general? You know, have you kind of turned to... books more? Are you finding it harder to get to grips with the book? I think finding it really hard to concentrate. I find it really hard at this start and I've kind of got more into it. But at the beginning of lockdown I was kind of like, oh, I'm going to have so much reading

time. It was actually really hard to focus. I found it to be exactly the same with me personally. I think I've gravitated more towards like shorter form essays just because like sitting down with a book when the whole world is like in chaos. I don't know. I think my mind just drifts and it's harder to kind of, you know, lock into the text for me personally. Yeah, it's interesting because that's definitely been echoed by other guests on the podcast. I really found that I was kind of gravitating to the two, like two extremes and I was, I've reread a lot of like favorite children's fiction for that kind of comfort feeling. But then I've also found that I've had like a real craving for kind of like

very like experimental kind of weird stuff that you just you can't read it unless you're superiors. focused and sort of kind of forces you to get into that headspace. So I've kind of been really kind of going to the two ends of the spectrum as a way of kind of getting into books. And what was your experience of kind of reading these three books one after the other? Do you think they spoke to each other? Like reading each one felt like quite a unique experience. I mean, I guess you know, the topic of the podcast is families and it did kind of explore different facets of that. but to me each one kind of spoke to me in a completely different way. I didn't feel like they were tethered together.

I don't know what you guys think. Yeah, I think that it's interesting when you read something with that kind of framework, with that context. And it's kind of hard to say, isn't it? If you just happen to have read them close to each other without knowing that we were going to be talking about ideas of home and family, would, but I find my brain kind of looking for connections and links. But I think that's also interesting with On Beauty,

because of course it's like a kind of, It's a riff on Howard's end. And I found that that really changed how, I kind of wish I didn't know that because I kept looking for the parallels and being like, oh, well, that character represents that character. So that must mean that this is going to happen. And then when it didn't, I was thinking too hard about that.

And I think it's just that linked thing of when you're reading something with a context or a framework in mind, it does affect what you respond to and what you're looking for. I think they have really different feels as well. Like home is so quiet. And I read that one at the end after reading, he took up heaven and then I read On Beauty.

I mean, the feels are so distinct. Like, we need to report heaven is so kind of spiky and dark. And then on beauty, I just find so kind of energizing and just like really fun. Like I just, every time we read it, I'm just like, Dee Smith is having such a good time writing this book. I feel like it must have been really, fun to write and then home is obviously yeah so quiet and yeah it's it's quite it's quite it's quite interesting reading them all in like tandem I know even though they are you know all

about family in one way or another it just goes to show I think that everyone's idea of families and like families that appear in literature are so different even though the time of the plots are very different but like it for me the real difference is that kind of yeah the reading experience and what sophie said like i found on duty on beauty just such so much more of a kind of enjoyable fun gripping read well we'll get to on beauty in the second but i think we should start by talking about the first book which is we need to talk about kevin by lino schreiber so this one in 2005 and sophie i think you volunteered to give us a quick summary of the plot sure yeah so we need to talk about kevin is about the aftermath of a school shooting and it's

narrated by the shooter's mother, Eva, and she reflects on her ambivalence to parenthood, she thinks about his childhood, whether she could have done anything differently. And it kind of thinks as well about kind of the nature of evil and nature versus nature versus nurture. And yeah, just what makes a killer, basically. What did you guys make of this one? I have a really, really complicated relationship with this book in the sense that I found it incredibly gripping to read. And I don't know how we feel about spoilers. but I'm just going to say that the end of the book made me wish I'd never read it.

And I don't feel like I've ever got that. There's a, like, you know, there's obviously a very dark thing that happens in the end that's revealed at the end. And I, since I, when I first read that, however many years ago, I don't feel like I've got that image out of my head ever since. And I kind of wish I didn't have that image in my head. But that, but up until that point, I found it, you know, it's a hugely gripping, interesting read.

I don't know, I found it almost gleefully dark at the end. Yeah, I mean, I can agree with that. I found it pretty, pretty harrowing throughout, I would say. I mean, it was actually, I'd seen, I'd committed the sin of seeing the film before reading the book. Don't worry. But yeah, I mean, as we were saying before, I did, you know, I felt as I think it was, was it Sophie said, it was, it was a very kind of spiky read. I felt like, you know, it was kind of, um, rather than, you know, for example, when I was reading on beauty and I was just kind of enjoying the richness of it, I think throughout reading, we need to talk about Kevin.

I was just kind of like becoming more and more horrified in a way. But, you know, that's not to say it was, it was, it was a very gripping read. And I think it was interesting, I think, the use of Eva as the kind of, how would you, how would you say it? Like a kind of dislikable protagonist was interesting, like seeing the whole story unfold through her lens. But yeah. Yeah, I found, I kind of found how unlikable that Eva was made so clever because it just felt kind of, because of meta, because I suppose the whole way through, we're meant to be, you know, we're not supposed to be sympathetic to her, but we kind of are. It kind of confused me because, you know, obviously we're meant to be rooting for her as a character, but at the same time the whole book is kind of this exploration of, is she a bad mother, is it her fault?

And there's just not a clear answer by the end. Yeah, I found it, like, quite uncomfortable. And a lot of parts kind of felt provocative. And I've read, you know, things about the book said, oh, it's courageous. And it just made me think about the line between provocative and courageous. Like, you know, the ideas that's a good point about the ideas about kind of motherhood and kind of, of articulating that those ideas of like you know what if you are a bad mother actually what if motherhood isn't good you know babies are boring those are things I don't

think I've really seen like articulated in a book before or since really it's really interesting because I feel like in fiction and even in you know just regular journalism now there's a much more there's much more of a comfort in saying well you know motherhood can sometimes suck and it's very trying and difficult but I think it's almost like Lionel Shriver took that kernel of a truth and just like went 100% with their story. I just think you're like what you said about the line between cradist and provocative is really smart and complete.

I think that really actually kind of sums up my experience of the book and that maybe tips a little bit over into provocative more so than my preference would be. There were bits that made me like really uncomfortable and I was like, am I supposed to feel uncomfortable? because, you know, because she was obviously, she was often snobbish. She was racist and she was ablest. And I was like, are we meant to feel, is this just part of the character? So are we supposed to be kind of on her side?

Like, what's going on? I don't know. I found it difficult. And she's quite an unreliable narrator, to be honest. Like, you know, it's all told from her viewpoint. And obviously, she's got a vested interest in sort of divesting herself of responsibility for what eventually happens in the book or what's reviewed to happen in the book. I think that like there has to be a purpose doesn't there to making a reader feel uncomfortable

and I think that that is yeah what Sophie was saying is there a purpose behind it I think often there is but sometimes it does feel like it's really pushing that doesn't it and you kind of want to feel like you know a writer is challenging you or kind of questioning you in a vote in a purposeful way not just kind of for the sheer thrill of making you feel uncomfortable I'm curious to know what you made of the book after you watched the film first and then you read the book. I mean, I think, you know, in general, I feel like, you know, reading the book kind of, it was interesting to see like the adaptation and then the kind of original text from which it had sprung from. I think, you know, for some reason, like, reading the book and just kind of sitting there in my room just going through it was just even more harrowing than watching the film. And I can't really quite explain that.

I think, you know, what the thing about this book that I think made me ultimately kind of uncomfortable and also kind of disorientated was like that there was no one to kind of, well, it felt like there was just no one to kind of, well, it felt like there was just no one. to root for and the lines were so blurred the whole time that I was kind of I don't know it was yeah it was a lot it was a lot I'll say that I think you can probably tell I think we're more used now as well to kind of unlikable female characters and that's a thing and it made me think about kind of how how unlikable do they have to be before we kind of stop rooting for them I don't know it was yeah yeah exactly it makes me think a lot and these two but can are probably just polar opposites of you know the difference in adaptation from TV and book of someone like Marianne from normal people by Sally Rooney who is established to be a really

unlikable person at school and then in I think in the TV show comes across as very likable which maybe slightly kind of departs from the book in that sense but you know the character of Eva is just unlikable both in the text and the film to me you know she's quite irredeemable character. That's really interesting because I think with Marianne, my reading bit was that she is presented as unlikable within the text, but I didn't personally find her particularly unlikable. Whereas I think with Eva,

she's like unlikable within the text and unlikable kind of to a reader. It's just sort of universally hard to like. Whereas Marianne, I sort of was rooting for. It's interesting, isn't it, how people toy with likeability and unlikability, especially with female protagonists. I think we talk about these things way more with female characters than we do

with male characters. Absolutely. Actually, in the context, sorry, just to go to home for a second, but in the context of unlikeable characters, and I know Jack was meant to be not likable or whatever or kind of presented as like, there's a bad character, and I was like, oh, I just really like him. Yeah, I agree.

Unlikable male characters were likable. I know both the books obviously doing different things with that, but I know I felt very natural. sympathetic to Jack and maybe a way I didn't feel either. And I was like, is that part of because in home, I felt like I was being told to like Jack and I, and I didn't. I had the complete opposite way around with Jack. Like I felt like the book wanted me to feel empathy for him and I found him very frustrating. That's interesting. Well, we'll let's talk about that when we get to home. No, I love that everyone's drawing parallels between, and reflections between the books.

but before we move on to the next book, we got to hear from Broadcaster January Murray. Now, she was the chair of the judging panel on 2005, and she will tell us why we need to talk about Kevin was picked that year as the winner, in spite of, or maybe because of the dislikable Eva. I think every so often you pick up a book that absolutely knocks your socks off, and this book did that to me, yes, that speaking the unspeakable, that we've all, you know, any woman I think who has had a life, has been an independent woman,

gets pregnant or even thinks about getting pregnant and thinks, what impact is this going to have on me? What is this person who's growing inside me? What sort of person are they going to be? How am I going to cope with it? How am I going to look after this person? What sort of responsibility am I taking on? And she acknowledges that terrifying part, I think, of so many women's

lives that we don't talk about. And she had lifted the lid on that question. Remember, you can join in the discussion by using the hashtag reading women. And our second book is On Beauty by Zadie Smith. And this novel won the prize back in 2006. It was her third book. And Arlo, I think you're going to give us a rundown of the story. Yeah. I mean, so it surrounds kind of two feuding families, one's based in England and one in the US. And it's kind of kind of an exploration of how, I guess, the individuals within the family unit interact with each other in their environments and the main themes are kind of like, I guess like race, class, sexuality and education. I guess that's how I sum it up.

How did you guys find this one? I mean, it is wonderful, isn't it? She's just a wonderful writer. I feel like everyone universally liked this one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I would say I enjoyed the first half more than I enjoyed the second half. and I don't know if that was my own fault for trying to like work it out as it were in terms of how it's end and I also thought that um that the ending is I felt really I don't know I felt like a lot of the experiences of reading even though it's not sort of like plain sailing all the way through there's lots of sad and difficult things that happen I was I found it hugely enjoyable for the most part but I did end up feeling like I feel like it got progressively more melancholy and I felt quite sad at the end in a sort of slightly unresolved way. did you feel the same way? Yeah, I mean, I agree with it.

I think, you know, I really enjoyed this one because it felt, I mean, the themes that I explored, I found quite interesting. I mean, especially, I mean, as like a black woman, I thought it was interesting. The relationship between, like, Levi and Carl and how he feels like, you know, Carl's blackness as it were is more authentic than his and you know the the idea of exploring identity within that but I do think as you say it does just kind of like spiral down into the end but in general I found it really enjoyable and I think I think you know if we're talking about unlikable characters I mean I found Howard super intating but yeah I enjoyed it a lot

I think Zadie Smith wants Howard to be really unlikable. Mm, definitely. I kind of like, I felt, I found like the process of reading it, almost like watching a play. Like, I just, I just like, I love how all the pieces just seem to fit together so well. It just, I don't know, it just, it just works on so many levels. Mm. And I think Zadie Smith has this really unique ability of lining up all these characters. Quite a few of them in a lot of her books in many cases.

And they just kind of slot together perfectly. and you just enjoy spending time with them. Yes. Yeah. And even like the kind of the characters are not super likable. Like Zora is kind of a bit annoying. And Howard is probably the most unlikable. But there's something to like in all of them, I think.

There's something, there's a sort of tenderness that was missing for me from Eva's character, for example. Yeah, tenderness is a really good word. And they all feel very sort of, real seems such like a simplistic word for using to talk about fictional characters. but they do feel very authentic and real. And you do almost feel like you're just kind of watching, getting a window into kind of two families' lives,

don't you, rather than a kind of very like consciously created piece of fiction. And I mean that you'd do as a compliment. I agree with that. How did you feel about the way that the two families were depicted in the book? Do you think that, you know, the family relationships in one family were drawn a little bit more clear. and distinctly than the other? Or do you think that both families felt very realistic and true to life?

I mean, I'm aware as well that, like, I don't have any experience with American academia. And I couldn't tell you if that's okay. I certainly enjoyed kind of enjoyed that kind of quite, what satirical kind of look at that kind of community in a sort of small town, like a university town. But I can't really comment on how realistic it is. But I certainly felt, I mean, I think that,

the Belsies are supposed to be the kind of main family, as it were, aren't they? So I think that you kind of, you get more nuance and detail as to all of the members of that character and the kids are more kind of operate in relation to that family. What about the friendship, you know, between the two wives, which I kind of find, you know, on reading back quite unusual in that, I don't really know nowadays if you would seek out the friendship of someone from a diametrically opposed family unit to yours. I mean there's a lot of discussion going on at the moment, isn't there, about how much use there is to engaging and conversing with people who have very opposite opinions to you? That's, I think, something that we're really grappling with a lot at the moment if there's value in that.

I think there's like, I don't know, because to me there were so many kind of opposites, but also symbiosis is in the books. It's kind of like a pendulum back and forth. So like kind of with Kiki and Claire, obviously very opposite characters and opposite in like physical ways as well. and then Kiki and Mrs Kipps. And just even like Carl and Levi, everything felt like it had its own kind of counterpoint maybe. I don't know. So it kind of made sense to me in that way.

I feel like I keep banging on about Howard's end, but I did feel like that was one of the elements where I maybe felt like it was like if there was a sense of confusion, it's because there needs to be that echo of the people from the different families connecting and the kind of parallel between, the house being left to somebody and in this obviously it's a painting but I do feel like again I'm not sure if I'm just reading way too much into her kind of riffs on Howard's end and I should I think

clearly I need to just leave it to one side of it I'm going to be the Philistine and admit that I haven't actually read Howard's end so I haven't either neither neither it's by Forster right is it the one by Yeah, I haven't read it for like a really long time, which is maybe also part of the issue. And maybe if I'd read it more recently, I would have got less, you know, because it was sort of like a half remembered thing that I was trying to kind of patch over the top of on beauty.

And I think like maybe if I'd read it more recently, I sort of was in a kind of halfway position of having like a vague awareness of, or an awareness of the story without it being very, very fresh in my head. But I do think that's interesting. And I love books that are rifts on other. books and it's one of my favorite kind of niche genres of fiction is things like this and so I found it super interesting kind of trying to like look at how she was doing that and what I felt worked and what I felt didn't work from that perspective was there a particular riff on Howard's end that

you found interesting or that stood out the most do you know I feel like for someone who keeps bringing it up in the conversation I'm so unqualified to comment in the sense that I read it so long ago because I think for me like it really was just I was I was doing it in such a ham fisted way of just trying to like overlay like the plot onto the plot of the other book and I'm sure there was way more nuanced stuff going on with kind of themes

and you know I was I think I got a bit fixated on like trying to yeah over lie the two plots over each other but I did find it fascinating and I think it's really interesting the way that you know kind of classics can be pulled into more contemporary fiction and this is

this is set in such a different world that I did find it interesting. It made me want to go and reread Howard's End having read on beauty. I think listening to you has made me want to read Howard's End for the first time. I'm glad because I feel like I'm giving very like top level thoughts about it. No, I think it's interesting as well because, you know, I always think that as an author, if you want to riff on a very well established, but that takes a certain amount of bravery because you're basically saying to people, let's compare and contrast.

And they are very different books. They are very different. But at the same time, you know, I kind of wonder how Zadie Smith set about deciding, you know, the foster book I'm going to try and update for contemporary day is Howard's End. I think she's a huge Forster fan is, I think, that she is a big fan of Forster generally.

I'm trying to, I feel like there is, I'm just trying to find that in the acknowledgement she talks about it. It should be obvious from the first line that this is a novel inspired by a love of E.M. Forster, to whom all my fiction is indebted one way or another. This time I wanted to repay the debt with homage, which I thought was interesting. That's what she says in her acknowledgments. That's really interesting.

It must be one of her favourite of foster books then. You'd have to know it like super well to be able to kind of not just rip it off. So before we move on to our final book, here's Martha Kearney, the journalist and broadcaster and chair of judges in 2006. And she tells us why on beauty captivated the panel that year. What I'd say is one of its real strengths is the humour. And that can be a feeling for a book to be serious and to be taken serious. It has to be very gloomy. And this isn't.

This is joyous. It's funny in the way that it gets inside. people's characters and it's full of gentle parody. If I give you an example, there's the youngest son of the Belsie family is called Levi. And he's that classic middle class rebel. So he's actually at a private school, but he really wants to be a hip-hop star. And he talks in street slang, even though he lives in this very posh university town. So this is Levi.

He's heading off home after work. and he looked out at dread at Wellington as it began to manifest itself outside the grimy windows. The pristine white spires of the college seemed to him like the watchtowers of a prison to which he was returning. He sloped towards home,

walking up the final hill, listening to his music. The fate of the young man in his headphones who faced a jail cell that very night did not seem such a world away from his own predicament, an anniversary party full of academics. This podcast is made in partnership

with Bailey's Irish Cream. Bayleys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hand of more people. Baileys is a perfect adult treat, whether in coffee, over ice cream or paired with your favourite book. Official announcement, sunshine is coming our way. Celebrate the changing seasons and the sweet taste of spring with a Baileys on ice alongside your favorite shortlisted book. Or if you'd prefer a vegan treat, try Bailey's almond for the delicate taste of almond with a blend of real vanilla. So our final book for today is Home by Marilyn Robinson. So out of our three books, this was the most recent winner in 2009. And Anna, I think you said you'd be

able to give our listeners a quick synopsis. So this is the second of a kind of loose trilogy. it's a companion book to Robinson's Gilead about the Borton family and Gilead, the town. So this book is about Glory, who's one of the Borten siblings, who comes home to Gilead after the breakdown of a relationship. And while she's there, her brother, Jack, also returns,

who's the kind of prodigal son, and the two of them are at home with their father, and it's about them reconnecting, grappling with ideas of family, sort of small town politics and faith what did you guys make of this book i know you wanted to start talking about it uh from the very from the very get-go so i think now's the time to let loose because this is the book that made me think the most even though i i did not get on with it um but i thought about it so much it's a book i thought about i kept coming back to it it occupied

so much space in my brain while i was reading it and after i read it it really made me interrogate what I respond to. I thought that it was such a hugely skilled book, but I found it so sad and I felt I felt like its tagline should be like one woman's life is progressively destroyed by a series of like disappointing men and I felt so angry like I just felt so angry on glory's behalf by the end of the book and I know that that's part of like that's in the text but I just I was so cross for her and so sad for her. that it kind of overwhelmed me by the end of the book. I agree. I definitely agree.

That's exactly how I saw it as well. I mean, it definitely wasn't my favourite, but it did feel like just watching her being gradually, just watching somebody's spirit being broken. It was kind of, yeah, it was quite difficult. I've kind of always been recommended Marilynne and Robinson books before, and actually never got around to meeting them. I think some struck me in this, but kind of also for the others too.

And maybe this is quite like a lockdown thought because we're just in houses constantly. But like the houses in all of them to me and maybe especially in this seem like kind of their own characters. You know, and like they have their own vibe. And home is supposed to be this very safe, good place. But actually for them, it's like this kind of fausty, dark, cluttered and two grand. And it's a trap. And, you know, they kind of they want to escape it. they keep getting pulled back and the house at the end where like glory thinks that she maybe she has

this like moment of kind of hope where she's like you know she kind of embraces what's going to happen and she thinks but you know she can turn the house into her own home and then she decides and then she's like oh but I'm never going to because it would make jack who's never going to come back again sad and I was just like I know I'm getting so like simplistic about it but I was just like it broke me a little bit that bit I think that she would give up on that because of oh it just again like there's so much skill and I think the fact that I feel so strongly about it demonstrates her skill also I this is a kind of complex thing as well but the element of faith in the book I grew up in a hugely religious family and I'm aware that that impacts how I react to faith in books but I found it I found it difficult

to read from that perspective. And I know it doesn't sort of, it's not saying, I don't think it's pro the church or like kind of organized religion, but I do think it's pro faith. And I have no fundamental issue with that. But as someone who's had quite like traumatic experiences with churches and faith, I did find that. I found it difficult to read that as kind of having that as a foundation of the book.

But again, that's a hugely just a personal thing. No, I think that makes sense because, you know, I think in some books, like this, but for instance, you know, faith is just taken as almost like a given. So it's never quite interrogated in the same, in a way you might want it to. And it's just kind of taken as, you know,

the backdrop. This is how a regular life in the 50s is like. And for me, that also felt slightly kind of unsatisfying in some cases. The faith just gets in the way. I just kind of found it frustrating because I just, you know, I was kind of like, forgive Jack. He's come back and he's like trying to, you know, make a change and, you know, what do you have to lose?

and then I just felt like they kind of of knocking it back and I was like what does he have to do? I know that's kind of like the point of it and you know it was thinking about forgiveness and ideas of like what is forgivable and stuff but yeah I found that just frustrating yeah I basically I'm sorry

this is such a like non-critical not like super personal ways but I basically hated their father by the end of the literal intensity I think that was interesting like the fathers throughout those those three books which is very

personally problematic to me they don't really see their children yeah exactly it's hard isn't it because I don't I really struggle to think in literature of a character who is just not even a good father but a father who's present

like it's not really something that you know is a subject of a lot of literature like the dad the father whereas I feel like mothers get quite a good representation in fiction They're not necessarily all good or, you know, unproblematic depictions, but, you know, at least they're there. Whereas fathers in literature, I'm a bit like, oh, I can't really think of many. No, I'm, yeah, I'm trying racking my brains with it.

And it's something I'm guilty of in my, I write for children, but it's actually something, I've got like a really good granddad, but I'm definitely guilty is the same thing of a lot of absent, absent dads. So you guys spoke about Jack as well, like Jack as a character, whether he's likable or not. What do you think about him as a character? Do you think he's meant to be, do you think that Marilynne Robinson's kind of trying to make us root for him? I think so. Yes.

I definitely think so. I mean, I definitely found myself empathising with him, especially in terms of like Della and like how the family reacts to, well, how his father reacts to that situation and everything. I think we're supposed to empathise with him. I found him hugely empathetic as a character kind of by himself and certainly in relation to his father. I think the thing that kind of muddied it for me was when you think about him in relation to glory and how much of herself and her freedom, glory had to sacrifice to support Jack. So whilst I did find Jack, I did find him very empathetic, I was frustrated by his inability to see how he was impacting glory's.

life and the constant sacrifice that she was being asked to make. And so I think that in relation to different characters, I sort of felt very differently towards him. I guess it's like the presentation of like goodness because, you know, he's he's the bad character, but in many ways he's much better a person than, you know, his father who's extremely judgmental. And so, yeah, just what is a good person and what does that involve?

I think it was why I was so frustrating they wouldn't forgive him and I was like he's clearly like a person who in lots of ways tries really hard and has learnt a lot and you know has taken things on board from a life which is like not exactly perfect from a 2020 perspective I do

think it's hard to really read Jack as like a bad person isn't it like from from our perspective very little of what he does could be perceived as I think particularly where he is at in the novel obviously like you said you know he's made a lot of mistakes.

But as you say, he sort of really learns and grows and a lot of the things that he's seen as an outcast, well, not a lot of, but, you know, his relationship with Della, to us, that is, you know, his, his, is, I wouldn't go as far as admirable. That's not the right word. But that's not difficult for us to kind of empathize with or feel like, you know, we don't read that as a controversial thing,

although you obviously understand the context that the book is in. In the way that his father just reads as like a terrible, person, like dressed up and kind of faux, like faux piety. I also found something quite interesting in reading this during the coronavirus lockdown, which is, you know, I know plenty of people who've gone back to their family homes to kind of wait out the pandemic. And it kind of made me wonder if anyone reads this and kind of thinks, oh God, I'm the Jack in my family. it is it's such a claustrophobic read isn't it it made me feel quite panicky at times yeah i felt i felt i felt quite i actually as i was reading it i did feel quite quite drained i guess

i mean i think even in the language talking about how how quiet it seems and i just felt so sad for glory because it seems like she's just constantly sideline and silence and she has no she's never prioritised in the book once she's always kind of you know yeah I love the description of it as what was it like one woman's life ruined by progressively worse men yeah like a series of disappointing

man Neil Hinge bio definitely which is I feel like saying that sentence in response to Robinson's writing is sort of bordering on sacrilegious but still that's like that's how I felt about it even though it's like set like 50 what 50 years ago when it is 50 years yeah 50 yeah 50

the way it sort of taps into for glory like a really specific I don't know I kind of associate going home with kind of you've kind of failed in some way I just I really kind of was taken back to like a time when I've had to go back to my parents like after a relationship and kind of being like oh my god what happens now actually can anything happen now or even what is like the next move it was kind of like that claustrophobia speaking of like on beauty is like a riff on how it's end i like suddenly sees this desire to write like kind of unofficial sequel where glory is like no way actually i'm off and uh she goes and gets to have this like beautiful independent life where she yeah she sells the house and like i'm

relations yeah i want to read that book well i mean maybe we can just write some fan fiction and imagine that end for her i think i actually do have a bit of a crush on jack so maybe i can take that I think that is like maybe a lockdown thought. I need like human touch. No, right now. It was like a lanky 40 year old with like emotional problems. I love it. I mean, sometimes you can just cast people in your head for books.

I definitely find that with some of the books that I've been reading for this podcast. And in my head, who would you cast for Jack? Oh, I have this. It's Adrian Brody. Oh my God. I was going to say Adrian Broadie too. No way! I had like Matthew McConaughey.

Yeah, I think, you know, just someone with a long, sad face. Yeah. Well, I think that's kind of all the time we've got to discuss the books. I'm really glad we ended it on that note. Here's our final judge for today's Reading Women episode. This is podcaster, broadcaster and writer Feiglover, the chair of judges from 2009 on why Marilyn Robinson's whole. was crowned the winner.

Do you know what? It absolutely sailed through onto the long list and it sailed through to the short list on the basis of the exquisite level of writing. So personally I think Marilynne Robinson is one of the great novelists of all time. And she just writes at a level that just, I don't know, it's just sublime. As soon as you open the book, within the first paragraph,

you know you're an incredibly safe hands and their wise hands and it's just a beautiful reading experience. So I remember when we were doing the judging, we had a table just piled up with books, absolutely pile with books. And I held up home, looked around at the other judges and they all went, yep, and that was it.

Because everyone was just like, yes, we'll save some time to talk about it later, but absolutely this book is going through. She manages to do that thing that great, great writers do, which is to tell you something you already knew but to make it easier to understand. So all of what she writes about is stuff that you will have read about before. Sibling rivalry,

a father who loves too much and doesn't love too much, marriages that go wrong, battling with alcoholism. You know, those are themes that you can find in loads and loads of books. But Marilynne Robinson will do something. It's like when your camera's slightly out of focus

and you just turn it a tiny bit and suddenly, you think, oh yeah, no, that's clearer. That's what she manages to do. I mean, did any of the books change your opinion or perspective on family or family relationships? Do you think you kind of look at reading in a different way than you did before? I know some of you mentioned that, you know, it's really caused you to interrogate the way you respond to different books and why you like certain books and not others? Yeah, I think particularly reading The Robinson, it really made me think about how I can read a book that is undeniably, hugely skillful.

and on a sentence level, I was frequently blown away by it, but still really not like it and sort of what's more valuable in reading as well. Like, and I think, you know, does, it's that, you know, you can like a book and not think it's very good and equally you can think a book is excellent and still not like it. And I think that that's a really interesting element to reading and why we read. And that I think both of those are really, really valid kind of perspectives to come at fiction from. Which book do you think you'll remember from this experiment of reading three books on a single theme?

I mean, I don't think I'll ever probably be able to get we need to talk about Kevin out of my head for the rest of my life. Probably that one, just because it was, yeah, it was a shocking, a shocking read, but, you know, I think I was gripped by it, I will say that. I was gripped by it throughout. Sophie? I think I remember all of them. I didn't know. I think for, sorry, that's a bit of a cop-out answer, but I think they're all just so distinct. And also in terms of, like, from a craft perspective, I just, I found the writing and all of them just incredibly good at what I was doing. And I found

that very admirable as someone who writes books and, you know, just kind of thinking about what actually makes, what, what is good writing? I think in all their ways, their writing is, like, really exceptional, even if I didn't personally get on with all of them that much, like I could kind of really admire them for what they were doing if that makes sense on a kind of technical, on a technical level. And especially like the Zadie Smith and Marilynne Robinson. Yeah, I basically, I had, I just, again, I'm agreeing with Sophie, I found them all super even though I don't think any of them are going to be favourite books of mine, I found them all super interesting. I'm glad that I have read them, especially on beauty and her.

home. And even though I didn't like home, I really do think it's a book that will stay with me for a long time. And I, it's one of those ones that I read it and I immediately wanted to talk to people who'd read it about why they liked it or why they didn't like it. I found it fascinating. I'm Zing Singh, and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Now, you definitely want to head over to our website to find out more about the Reading Women Challenge. Get exclusive video and audio content and check out the hashtag Reading Women on Instagram and Twitter to join in the conversation around the 24 brilliant past winners of the Women's Prize for Fiction. Now you can get hold of all the books you've talked about

in today's episode and all of the women's prize winning novels we've discussed so far on the podcast by going to waterstones.com. We even have a very special discount for you. You can enter the code WPF 25 at checkout to get 25% off each of the winning books. Please subscribe and don't forget to rate and review this podcast. It really helps spread the word about all the female talent you've heard about today. Thank you very much for listening and see you next time.