Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S2 Ep18: Bookshelfie: Ruby Wax

Episode Date: October 6, 2020

In this episode Zing Tsjeng is joined by Ruby Wax - a successful comedian, TV writer and performer of over 25 years. Ruby additionally holds a Master’s degree in Mindfulness-based Cognitive Therapy from Oxford University, and was awarded an OBE in 2015 for her services to mental health. On this topic, she is the author of multiple best selling books. She is also the president of the UK’s leading relationship support charity Relate. Her fifth book, And Now for the Good News…To the Future with Love, is out now. Ruby's book choices are: The Bell Jar by Sylvia Plath Beloved by Toni Morrison The Handmaid’s Tale - Margaret Atwood The White Album by Joan Didion White Teeth by Zadie Smith Every fortnight, join Zing Tsjeng, editor at VICE, and inspirational guests, including Dolly Alderton, Stanley Tucci, Liv Little and Scarlett Curtis as they celebrate the best fiction written by women. They'll discuss the diverse back-catalogue of Women’s Prize-winning books spanning a generation, explore the life-changing books that sit on other women’s bookshelves and talk about what the future holds for women writing today. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and this series will also take you behind the scenes throughout 2020 as we explore the history of the Prize in its 25th year and gain unique access to the shortlisted authors and the 2020 Prize winner. Sit back and enjoy. This podcast is produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit Harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Zing Singh, your host for Season 2 of the Women's Prize podcast, coming to you every fortnight throughout 2020.

You've joined me for a bookshelfy episode in which we ask an inspiring woman to share the story of her life through five brilliant books by women. Hello and welcome to another episode of bookshelfy recorded during the coronavirus lockdown. We are still practicing safe social distancing, so this episode is being recorded remotely. And today's guest is Ruby Wax, the comedian, TV writer and performer of over 25 years. Ruby additionally holds a master's degree in mindfulness-based cognitive therapy from Oxford University, and she was awarded an OBE in 2015 for her services to mental health. And on this topic, she is the author of multiple bestselling books. She's also the president of the UK's leading relationship support charity, Relate, and her fifth book.

And now for the good news to the future with love is out now. Ruby, welcome to the podcast. Hi, thank you. How are you doing? Okay. I had surgery, but I'm okay. I'm sitting up. I'm a little drunk, but I'm fine.

You're sitting up and you're conscious. That's all we can help for in today's times. I mean, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. You know, I find it really fascinating that your book, now for the good news to the future with love, is coming out in a year where I feel like nobody is looking at the future through a very optimistic lens. Can you tell me a bit about the book?

That's prophetic, wasn't it? So about two years ago, I was sick of getting plagued, besieged by bad news. And I always think wherever you put your attention is where you, you know, who defines who you are in that moment. So I don't want to be a victim of endless, then it's Brexit, then it's COVID, that it's, we're just force-fed, this hailstorm of bad news. So I decided to send my attention to the good news.

So I ran around the globe looking for where there were these pockets of green shoots of what people were doing in education and in business and in community and in health. so I could see, you know, what was growing out there. And if we just kept our eyes on it and we focused it and we nurtured it, that would be the future. Instead of all this horror, oh, it's going to be technology, is going to eat us alive. So I was lucky enough to have the happiness two years of my life. And I found places I'd want to live and where I'd want to, you know, people I want to work around. And I was going to go except for this happened, you know, COVID.

But when it's over, I know where I'm going to go. So I did make new friends. It's like a Michelin guide for better living or more inspired living or more involved living. And what was some of the most unusual things that you came across that gave you hope? Well, which topic do you want me to start on? Tell us about education. So for education, for example, I went to Finland where they are teaching kids. And they are in some UK schools a whole new way so that they can be emotionally resilient

rather than just burnt out from stuffing too much information down their throats because the jobs that'll be around in 20 years don't even exist now. So what they're teaching in some of these schools is how these kids can work as a team, how they can regulate their emotions so they're not overwhelmed by stress and how they, you know, to instill compassion and empathy. And I'll tell you in 20 years, those are going to be the gold standards. Those are the kids that will go to Oxford and Harvard. So I saw some of those and it's just inspiring.

And also in business, there are now some really interesting businesses going on. It's not just made the best man steal your pants off, but they're doing it very consciously. And it isn't just a fad. It's not just, what is it? Greenwashing. Greenwashing. That's the word. That's really interesting.

Because I've always wondered what the point of cramming facts into your head is when you could literally just look things up on Wikipedia. Yeah, everything that they're teaching in school has already been replaced. So, you know, what machines won't be able to do is intuitive work or instinctive work or, you know, mentalization where we can read what other people are thinking. Those are going to be the tools of the future. Yeah, they can beat us in everything. Wikipedia is much faster than we are and it'll never grow senile. This is one of your many, many books that you've come up with over the years. But I'm curious to know, were you always a big reader?

writer when you were growing up? I wasn't a writer. I was dyslexic and I got D's in English and I still am dyslexic. I really, I need somebody to explain to me about punctual. Like, I don't know where the commas go. I don't know grammar

because I'm dyslexic. I think like jazz. So there's nothing linear. It really is. I'm trying to be straight, but it just comes out comedy. So even when I write about neuroscience because my brain is so jammed, it comes out comedy. Right. I really wanted to be academic. And I always read as a kid, too,

but when I was very young, I was so, my family was so insane that I couldn't concentrate on the words. So I only became a big reader much later on. And the first book you picked for bookshelfy was DeBelger by Sylvia Plath. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, what? Guess why. How old were you when you first encountered this book for the first time? It's the first book after Dr. Zeus that I remember. So there must have been some dark here. but I totally identified with her. You know, I was a freak, I was an outcast, I didn't want to live. Probably I was smart underneath.

She was smart on top, but I didn't get smart until five years ago when I went to Oxford. I was a moron before that, I guess because I was jumbled and traumatized. You know, we always have something to blame. But, you know, always hoping for the best and trying everything out and wanting to get the American dream. My parents were, how could I get the American dream when I was so screwed up? up. But, you know, she's always hopeful and then eventually it beats her down. And I identify with that completely. Right. And what was it like growing up, you know, in America at that time? I know you said your parents were insane, but how did that affect you? How? Well, I have mental

illness and I got an OBE for it. And I wouldn't say it's completely there for because we don't know if it's nature or nurture. But America was was the American dream. when I was growing up. On the surface, everything was green and lush and looked like suburbia, but underneath probably people were overdosing on drugs. That's why I like drug didion, too. And it was all under the surface, the kind of itchiness of that perfect housewife and pretending to have the perfect life. And then we were the offspring who could feel the darkness. But the mothers were just going, isn't this wonderful, we made a pie and handing their husbands a martini. Meanwhile, we ended up crazy because that wasn't reality.

But on the surface, America was beautiful. Right. So it's like that whole post-war dream. Yeah. And so you ended up moving to the UK to study acting? I ran away to the UK, yeah. And was that a really deliberate choice you were fed up of America? Yeah. I sold Girl Scout cookies and drugs. And combo, because I was young and teenage.

And I got myself to the UK. I had no talent at all. So I lived in a bed set that, you know, had those flickering colds. or he, no, he, just flickering. Right. I lived there and I tried to get in every drama school. And of course, they rejected me because I didn't know how to act. And finally, one of them took pity, but I worked so hard so I'd never have to go to,

I'd have to go home again, never. And I got into the RSC, don't ask. And then Rickman, Alan Rickman saw me and said, you should write the way you speak. So he trained me to write comedy. And then he directed everything I did for the next 30 years. Amazing. So he saved me. He saved me.

What was he like in person? Well, how can I say? He was a genius. He was a genius and he was hilarious. And he would do my comedy for me and I think I can never do this. But he was like my father and my girlfriend and my brother and he was everything. He saved me because my parents would come here and go, you know that Ruby Wax? They're laughing at it.

They're not laughing with her. Rickman would say, no, Mr. Wax, she's very talented. And my father would go, get out of here. She's a cook. that would be the conversation. Amazing. I love how you can do the Alan Rickman voice as well. I can't to get that low, but yeah.

So the next book you've picked as Tony Morrison's beloved. When did you read this? I see time is very tricky for me. I don't know. I don't know. I mean young. And she, you know, I don't cry because, well, I'm on a lot of medication. That tends to do it.

Yeah. I'm anti-depresence, but I think I wasn't because I wept, you know, this like tore my insights out. Talk about slavery. It reminded me of the Underground Railroad. Is that, well, you know, what can I say? It's from white America suddenly had a big wake-up call, and that was my wake-up call. I feel like white America is still going through this wake-up call. Well, how many wake-up calls do they need?

because my daughter said, oh, was I ever involved? And I said, the civil rights. And we shifted it so much because I was in that rebellious American time that it was the coolest thing to go out with a black guy. And my girlfriend was the coolest thing you could do. And now you go to Chicago and they go, watch out for the black guys. And I go, what happened here? Where did this go wrong?

You know, we were so far and how did we fall so behind? Do you feel like it's kind of gone in reverse? almost watching what's happening in America. I don't know. I've cut myself off from America. I never identified with it. I don't want anything. You know, I used to like the late night shopping, but now that's everywhere. So screw it. When did you kind of start feeling like you weren't American?

Oh, I always felt like a freak. You know, my parents only spoke German. So I only spoke German. And I didn't fit in with those kids until it came onto the kind of Joan Didian Rebellion. time and then they were my people you know once we started rebelling and i read the bell jar and catcher in the rye and i knew i wasn't alone and that there was such anger and philip rob i knew and then i felt american but of course they died out and now they just became rich all the rebels went away i know it's interesting isn't it how it kind of gets co-opted and you know as you get a little bit

richer you start carrying a little bit less oh completely it was my generation right all the people, you know, who built tents on my university grounds and, you know, used to spit at the, what do they call the guard? National. The police. The National Guard. They bring out the National Guard and try to tear down our anti-American tents that we built at Berkeley because it was so rebellious.

And I did. I worked at the National Democratic National Convention because I said I was 18, but I wasn't. And I got arrested and I was tear-gast. there were bulldozers coming down the streets of Chicago. It was thrilling. And I said, well, I made a suggestion and Abby Hoffman was there and everybody. I was really young. And I said, you know, if you want to bring this country down, why don't we just, I didn't

have it. Why don't you just burn your credit cards? Now, that's a really good idea. Totally ignored. Right. And then I left. I left. The next book you've picked is Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood.

Yeah. What do you like about this book? I love all her book. books. Ongst and Crate? Is that also? I mean, she knows how to write science fiction, but in a way that your, you know, your heart's dragged into the characters rather than just, you know, guys sometimes are too machine-like. You know, they like the mechanics. You know, everything about it. It just touches, it touches deep down in your bloodstream. And thereby the grace of God go I, it's, she hit a vein. She hit a vein. I don't know what it is. It's just the most, you know, when you go,

This is such a flight of imagination. I can't even, she has to drag me along. I've never imagined this. Were you a big sci-fi fan when you read the book? I know. I read Kurt Vonnegut, Sirens a Titan. And that was the greatest thing I'd ever seen. But then she wrote, what is it?

The heart goes last. And I thought, oh, boy, does she know darkness? Yeah. I'm just attracted to the dark and handmaic's tail is as dark as dark as it gets. I love those dark, dark, dark women. Were you always attracted to novels that were dark? Only. I don't like happy endings.

I don't like when people skip in Heather. Yeah. I don't like things, you know, the sister, Yaya, or whatever. It's just I want, I want it darker than my life. Right. So that I can feel, you know, because I always thought my parents were like a light sitcom, but I realize, no, it's more like Eugene O'Neill. I like people to be worse off than I am.

I wanted to ask you as well because I feel like the. Handmaid's Till really had a big resurgence with, of course, Donald Trump's election. And I know you met the guy. But he kicked you off his plane because he told you that he wanted to be president. Yeah, and I thought it was a joke. I laughed. And then he just hated me. But I could feel the hatred pouring off of him.

And then it stumbled me because whenever I meet that, I can't speak. I think it reminds me of daddy. Right. So I'm rendered. They think I'm an. idiot and I become the idiot and that's exactly what happened on that plane. But once he threw me off, it became really interesting. Because then the documentary starts. What do you think of him actually becoming president now? What do you want me to say? You know what I mean? Yeah. With that, again,

you know, you asked me in the beginning, why did I write a book called And Now for the Good News. It's so easy to get people into an animal reptile state, you know, because we are, A, it tastes delicious when you're in full rage. And B, it's addictive. you know, when we kick in that adrenaline. Yes. So if you want me to get into a full, like, frothing anger, we could go on with this conversation. Because I know my emotions, but let's just swerve off.

Because once you're in that rage, you're, you know, part of your memory brain kicks in and you can't remember anything. And you pretty much are out of commission as far as intelligence. And I don't want to go there. You know what I mean? That's totally cool. That's what people rant. They rant on television.

And he'll win again because people are ranting so much. Oh, yeah. Because now we don't think straight with that, you know, stress hormone buzzing away up there. And I think what he does is he appears to the real animal part of people's brain, whether you support him or not, he just gets to you in that horrible way. Like Hitler did. Oh, yeah. It's like patriarchal figures, right?

It's like the guys who are in Handmaid's Tale. And my father, yeah, is that they treat you like an idiot. And there's such anger and hatred pouring off them that you're, you know, toxicity and compassion, they're all viruses, and you catch them. And he boy, did he give it to me. And my heart still burns if I see that interview. It hurts. How did you kind of get to the point where you learned so much about, you know,

what pushes your triggers and, you know, what kind of triggers you have and, you know, the stress and the anxiety? How do you, like, keep all of that under control? Because you were on TV for so long. And I'm just curious to know, you know, were you always able to keep tabs on your emotions? Oh, no. I mean, that takes work. So once I left TV and I decided to reinvent, and then I went to Oxford and studied mindfulness-based cognitive therapy and neuroscience. That's why I like it, because there's evidence in a brain scanner for what happens when you

build up certain muscles in your brain. Mindfulness is a terrible word. That it does deliver what it says on the tin. I mean, nothing is 100 percent, but I can tell when I'm about to blow. That doesn't mean I don't, but I'm reading the gauges and that's pretty good. And I don't, you know, you're not a chilled thing. It just means I know if we go into Trump territory, the rest of this interview will go pretty badly. We'll swerve that then. We'll swerve that. We'll swerve it. This podcast is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish cream. Bayleys is proudly supporting the women's prize of fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remark women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people.

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Did you enjoy it? Don't forget I was 20. So, you know, you can take a lot of octane. And I had a lot of, or I still have it, but I had a lot of octane and I was ruthless. You know, I see my kids and they, I don't think they have that. They're happy when people are successful and I was just like a power drill. that nothing would get in my way, even though I wasn't that talented. But I had like my dad's drive to get out of Europe, I had it, you know, to be successful.

And I don't remember enjoying it, but I like getting into restaurants for, you know, because I was famous. And but all I lived was in fear that I'd lose it. Right. And then when I lost it, it was really good training. Really good training for what? For being human again. Do you think that something about the entertainment industry kind of just puts people up on that kind of animal state of fearing losing it and fearing losing status and it kind of stops them from enjoying what they've got? It depends on who the individual is.

I think there's a lot of shame when you get something for hardly anything. I mean, you know, if you have a natural ball and talent, it's not that hard. But I think there's a lot of guilt, if they're very intense, and then they get famous, I think there's some guilt adjoined to it. If you had a choice between poverty and fame, you know which one I take. But it is a disease. And I used to do documentaries until I was replaced by a man. And then they made me do, well, I had to do celebrity interviews, and I did find it interesting

that it is a disease. Right. And I studied the disease. So the show was interesting for me, but I didn't want to do it for 20 years. What about celebrity do you think makes a disease? Even the word is a disease. You know, you're at the mercy of all those eyes and they decide who you are rather than...

I think Truman Capote, I remember this from a long time ago, he said the disease is when you stop becoming the observer as a writer and start becoming the observed. Right. And that you see yourself through other people's eyes. That's very dangerous. There's no center. So I think that's part of the disease and holding on to change because it will be taken from you.

And I think that kind of sense of being an observer looking in at celebrity and these kind of pop culture phenomena kind of leads us really well into Joan Didion, right? Because she was like the ultimate observer. Yeah. Well, she, that is my childhood that I remember of, you know, the Grateful Dead in San Francisco. going. I look at it with fondness. I don't know if it's read as a tragedy these days. But all of that stuff was when I was 16, and that was America's heyday. Maybe I'm getting this wrong, but in my memory, it's a great time. I mean, it was, everything was free. There was no political correctness.

Isn't that a fact, we were supposed to go for the jugular of politics? You know, that whole, I'm not saying it's great, but that whole Charles Manson entry. There's celebrity for you. Well, everything else she talked about in the White Album was what I was obsessed with. Totally obsessed. 60s, California. I even went to Berkeley just because of that book. Right.

Yeah. And it was as good as I thought. But again, I never fit in. So I had to read her book. I didn't really enjoy the 60s. I was too young. Right. And why do you think he left, ended up leaving Berkeley for the UK?

because of the National Convention. Right. And I got arrested it. And my father threatened me. Oh, my God. Yeah, so I had to run away. Why did he end up threatening you? Well, because I was young and I was thrown in jail, you know, so in Chicago after the convention.

You know, he always threatened me. He thought I was an idiot. And so they were going to make sure I stayed an idiot. And I, and so, you know, wasn't that pleasant being that young. and running away. You have no food, you know, nothing. But it saved my sanity, so I did. What about the UK appealed to you at the time? When I got here, it was a huge disappointment because everything was black and white and it was freezing. And they were only eating, toad in the hole. I don't know what these foodstuffs were, but they looked like my grandmother

in a crust. So, but what I wanted to be was a classical actress. considering I couldn't act, that was another major hurdle. So I made a wimple out of cardboard and I got in my bed and breakfast. And I practiced Juliet for a year without knowing anybody and then did it for every drama school. And they thought I was doing comedy. Right. Yeah. Because I brought a real bone on the stage to bang myself over the head because Juliet said,

says she's banging herself over the head with Tibbles bone, but I didn't know what a metaphor it was. So I beat myself over the head with the real turkey bone. And every school said no. And then, well, Roder lived to regret it because Rickman took me back and said, look what you lost. And then eventually I got into Glasgow and then I got into the RSC. So it worked out. Yeah. Were you always a kind of funny person? Were you a funny kid? No, I was a very disturbed kid. And then as I, as I. got older, I wanted to have boyfriends and they didn't like me because I was so disturbed that I started being, I was funnier. In 24 hours, I think when I was 16, I became hilarious.

And then I got all the boys. Yeah. Most of them were gay, but I got them. Still counts. Counts? Yeah. And they're the best looking. Yeah. Yeah. They're the ones who really matter. Totally. I mean, so when you were doing comedy and acting, did you always think I'm going to become an interviewer, I'm going to become an author. No. Oh, no. First, I couldn't write. No, nothing. I wanted to be an actress, and when I was on stage at the Roes Shakespeare Company, I've not made this up. I'd get little balls, lots of paper thrown at me, saying, I should think about another career while I was acting. And so Rickman said,

start writing quickly, and don't be an actress. And then he turned me into a comedian. and then after I um he well he made me right he said it doesn't matter how you spell just keep writing and then when I went to Oxford and I learned about the mind and evolution and everything else I could turn that into comedy so for my master's I did my I did a show which had never been done at Oxford but they graded me on it and then that it was mostly about the mind things but then I put comedy on it and turned it into a one-woman show. You also wrote and you've also performed really movingly, I think, about your own mental health issues. And I was wondering if you talk a bit about, you know, your journey through mental health. Was it always something you'd been concerned with?

Or when did you feel like you should start making work about it? I put it in my first show is that comic relief put a sign up, a big poster of me up all over the tube stations for charity to get money for mental health. And it said one in four people, have mental health problems. One in five people have dandruff. I have both. Now that was up everywhere and I didn't want to get caught that I had anything wrong. So I pretended it was a show. Right. And I was getting publicity for it. So then I had to write a show. Well, luckily I did because I made a career out of it. So I performed it in mental institutions for two years just to check it out with my people. And then it went on tour. And I did like 200, 300 shows all over the world.

world. Why would you, why do you call people from mentor institutions your people? Well, because I'm most comfortable with people who have glitches. Yeah. And now I have a bigger community because, you know, I do these things called frazzle cafes, which are on. I do it every night. I run a, meeting. And I do about 50, 200 people. And it's a community where people come on and just talk human to human. It's very structured. And it lasts an hour. And then I have, you. And then I have hosts who run smaller meetings so that we have quite a large number of people who come to these meetings. Think about AA, but not being an alcoholic. And we see, we need community. That's in my book. And now for the future, everybody agrees if we don't have community in schools

and business, if we don't work as a team, we're screwed. And so I created a community online because frazzled means stressed about stress and anxious about anxiety. And that's the contemporary illness that almost everybody has. So these are people like you and, you know, everybody who say, look, especially during COVID, you know, I feel so isolated. I can't stand the uncertainty. These are human qualities that we have never been trained to deal with. I live with five screaming children. I'm too terrified to go outside.

You know, this is the human condition. and it was even before this virus. So thank God now they're coming online and being honest. Because are you honest with people that drinks parties or dinner parties? Everybody's, if they say to me one more time, how are you? And I have to answer, you know, we have to answer fine. But come on. You know, at least on our community, we don't ask that question.

I think it's so interesting how British people, and I'm not from the UK originally. I grew up overseas. Where did you grow up? Singapore. So the first thing I noticed when I moved to the UK was that people always said, oh, how are you? But they never expect an honest answer. You think they do in America?

I don't know. I don't. I've never spent any time in America. What do they do in Singapore? They say, have you eaten? No. And then you say yes or no. And depending on the answer, you'll get taken to eat something.

I love it. Oh, it's way more honest, I think. Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah. But I wonder whether, you know, you've lived in the UK for so long, do you think people here have a real kind of allergy to talking about how they're actually feeling in their anxieties and fears? No, because look, I've been doing this for 15 years now.

I have like full audiences standing up and wanting to talk. In America, maybe they seem more opaque. Is that the word? Yeah. But it was always just, I don't know, kind of cycle. babble, like even more of a mask, kind of Oprah speak. Whereas when you get these, and now my Zoom that I do every night, which you should come on, it's at 5.30 every night, come on fraselcafe.org, or go to a smaller meeting, is that they're speaking authentically. Now, that is different than

just, yeah, I had an incision done yesterday. My sister is very old. They're not like moaning. They're just saying, here's the truth about my life. This is what's going on. And sometimes they say, you know, I never felt heard before. So even just opening my mouth, forget that they're British. Now I have people from Dubai and L.A. It's authenticity. That's what we're going for.

And the British, well, I think we're going past nationalities now. And so we should. Otherwise, it'll keep being us and them. And now we have to be, you know, we, that's community again. So let's skip the, you know, our people don't do this. How do you kind of handle, you know, running frazzled meetings and stuff like that? Because it seems like so much to take on or the stuff that people tell you because it can be so intimate and personal.

Well, it's everybody's listening to everybody. So I'm not, I'm not, it's not therapy. I only just open it and close it pretty much with, you know, mindfulness just to get everybody in the room and defrazzled a little bit. But they start to open up and it's becomes contagious. And they're so tuned in to listening to everybody and caring and then starting saying, oh, yeah, that's me too. You're just saying how I feel.

And then there's breakout rooms of five or six. This is where they really get to mingle. And I'm not in those rooms. So I'm not taking the load. And I also bathe in the fact that people are being honest. I find pressure of living when people are giving me garbage or being. pretentious. To me, this is when I really breathe. I really love doing these meetings. So the final book you've picked is White Teeth by Zadie Smith, which came out in 2000.

So we're celebrating the 20th anniversary this year. Yeah, I just really loved her. And she was so young. And she could write the way I love. You know, I never, it's not always the plot. It's the sentence that I love. And she has a Philip Roth kind of thing going for her. Right. So, you know, I love the darkness and the lightness and the, there are certain types of sentences I love. It's not to do with the plot. You just think, boy, does she know how to drag my heart along with this? And it's all these kind of intricately plotted stories of families and lineages. It is very Philip Roth, actually, but just British.

Yeah, but she's as good, I think. Tell me a little bit about, you know, living in the UK now for so many years. do you feel like you're British now? No, I'm always an outsider. I don't know how old I am. I don't know, you know, I don't identify with a lot. But that's not a great thing. It's just the way it is.

Would you ever feel like you'd want to identify with any kind of group? Well, I do with the frazzled. Yeah. Whenever I'm on with them, I'm home. Do you feel like you've always been really kind of interested in people being honest and being honest yourself? I wasn't honest. myself. But I like when I'm near them, then I get honest. And when I'm with a phony, I get phony. Do you feel like, you know, the world's getting in like a more anxious place? Because I feel

like people say this all the time. And I don't know if, you know, you necessarily agree with that. Or do you think anxiety's always been with us? You know, I'm not an expert on this, but anxiety, I think in the old days had to do with, you know, the fact that your ox fell over or that your crop didn't kind of make it through the winter. And I think it was much more practical. But then, and I'm not saying all over, I'm saying for those of us who are lucky enough not to be starving, we started getting overwhelmed. You know, we just can't keep up with the technology got too brilliant. So, A, we can't keep with all the choices, you know, which shampoo do you get?

That'll kill you. And then who do we envy? Because we're not competing with the neighbor. All these things are good for our survival. at, you know, competition, a little bit of shame, a little bit of disgust. All these things are part of the brew that make us human. But when you're ending somebody halfway across the globe, or you're getting pictures of people that are having the life that you aren't having,

and it's, you know, the BS is really accelerating. And, you know, advertisers are basing their sales on our low self-esteem, you know, because when we have these things, then will be better or then will improve. You know, these are hidden persuaders. We don't even know what's tugging at us or our insecurities. So things are worse psychologically. But as far as survival of things, things are better. I mean, more people are alive.

More people are getting education. More people are getting medicine now than ever before. What do you think needs to happen so that people aren't serious? Community. I can't say it enough. I'm not a politician. I just think if we connect in some way that, you know, humans can help each other.

That's how we're born. We're born to be in tribes. Don't ask me how to do it. I'm not a politician, but I'm doing it in my own little way. And do you feel like, you know, building litter communities is a way to kind of make the vote into one big community? Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Yeah, I said it in one of my shows. It's neural Wi-Fi. If you learn to lower your cortisol. all, and that could be through mindfulness or whatever, but your stress hormones are also lowered when you're speaking honestly with somebody. They both just lower. Like if I like you, we'll calm each other down. If you're agitating me, our, you know, our heartbeat will go up.

But so we pass that state to our kids, the kids pass it to their friends and friends, the community, community, the planet. We work, it's a ripple effect. But I don't know how to work top down. only know how to work bottom up. I feel like more and more now, bottom up is the way people should be doing things, just starting from the grassroots. I totally agree with you, completely.

At the end of the, in my book, I talk about the people who are doing grassroots movements that I really think are admirable. So I give you a few of those if you want to join those. You know, the ones that are the real deal rather than there's a corporation that takes a cut. Did you come out of writing that book feeling a lot more optimistic about the future in a genuine way? Yeah. And the day I finished the last word, COVID started. Really?

Yep. The last word. Did that change how you wanted to approach the book? Well, luckily I could still write the beginning, change the beginning to say, this just broke out. And I ended the book with it. But the other part of the book wasn't, you know, I'm telling you the positive. I'm not going, oh, my God, I'm locked in. How do you think coronavirus is going to affect, you know, everything about the future?

Do you think it's going to make people more frazzled or do you think there are ways that we can come out of this a better species? I was hoping we'd come out better. I have a feeling, man of warnings and say it. I'm not here to spread bad news. Yeah, but the word mental health and pandemic, I'm just throwing that out. Yeah, it kind of seems like it's really hard to make connections now, genuine connections. feel good about even hanging out with people because in the back of your mind you're always thinking oh god am i going to expose someone to coronavirus am i getting exposed yeah and it's never mentioned

in any news programs this is all under the carpet just when to wear a mask and when again emotions are never addressed yeah or psychology's never addressed it never has been yeah it's interesting i think they're just people just think oh now we can go out to a pub or we can go out to a restaurant i was going to say, yeah. Oh, good. And how far apart do we have to sit from somebody? Like, that's the world. Well, I hope that the people you spoke to for your new book have some exciting insights into how we can deal with coronavirus in the future. Did you ever pick up with them and check in on how they're doing? Oh, well, they won't let me in. You know, I want to go to some of the communities. I am going in August to a few of them, but they, you know, locked down like everybody else, but they exist.

These businesses exist that are walking the talk. I'll give you, you can get the list in my book and don't think these are small businesses. They make a lot of money, but they walk the talk. Do you feel like more people are invested in walking the talk instead of just saying it? I do. I do. I mean, because now there's things that check it. Like, and there's something called B-Corps, which is if a company wants to get a B-core certificate, it's very stringent laws that you have to, you know, or rules that you have to obey. It has to be seriously, environmentally friendly. supply chain has to be kosher, you know, so if somebody's working in China, they get medical coverage and they really check it. And if you pass and they keep checking you, you get a B-Core

stamp and millennials, I think, in the future will say, I'm not buying from this place unless I see it, you know, the transparency. And I've seen these companies, and they do. They're the real deal. Like Ben & Jerry's, like Dove, like Patagonia, the Sportswear Company, or Elaine Fisher. There's some that are really cooking. Oh yeah. I mean, personally, I don't really buy any ice cream from anywhere else except Ben and Jerry's because of how they behave politically. I know. They have a whole program with refugees. It's unbelievable. But anyway, I was really surprised. Well, I hope that a lot of people are going to pick up your new book because it sounds like the world needs a really big dose of optimism right now. I hope so too.

I'm Zing Singh and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, brought to you by Baileys and produced by Birdline Media. You definitely want to click subscribe. Please rate and review this podcast. It's the easiest way to help spread the word about the female talent you've heard from today. And thanks very much for listening. See you next time.