Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S2 Ep23: Bookshelfie: Kim Cattrall

Episode Date: December 22, 2020

In this episode Zing Tsjeng is joined by actress Kim Cattrall. Her impressive career spans over four decades, taking the form of numerous tv, theatre and film roles. However, it was her portrayal of sexually liberated PR exec Samantha Jones on the HBO sitcom Sex and the City and its two film sequels that brought her worldwide attention, and gained her five Emmy Award nominations and four Golden Globe Award nominations including winning the 2002 Golden Globe for Best Supporting Actress. Her latest role is that of Margaret Monreaux on the FOX TV show - Filthy Rich. Kim's book choices are: I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou The Way of All Women by Esther Harding Life Before Man by Margaret Atwood  Sexual Personae by Camille Paglia Beloved by Toni Morrison   Every fortnight, join Zing Tsjeng, editor at VICE, and inspirational guests, including Dolly Alderton, Stanley Tucci, Liv Little and Scarlett Curtis as they celebrate the best fiction written by women. They'll discuss the diverse back-catalogue of Women’s Prize-winning books spanning a generation, explore the life-changing books that sit on other women’s bookshelves and talk about what the future holds for women writing today. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and this series will also take you behind the scenes throughout 2020 as we explore the history of the Prize in its 25th year and gain unique access to the shortlisted authors and the 2020 Prize winner. Sit back and enjoy. This podcast is produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve. Today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com. Ladies Detective Agency, Botswana's Premier and only female-led investigative bureau, with Alexander McCallsmith's A Song of Comfortable Chairs.

Join Mara Motzwe in this latest tale of life's trials and tribulations that will require all of her cleverness and generosity to resolve. A song of comfortable chairs, where every page contains a gem of wit and wisdom, is out now in hardback, e-book and audiobook. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize of Fiction Podcast. Celebrating Women's Writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Zing Singh, your host for Season 2 of the Women's Prize podcast coming to you every

fortnight throughout 2020. You've joined me for a special Bookshelfy episode in which we ask an inspiring woman to share the story of her life through five brilliant books by women. Hello and welcome to today's episode of Bookshelfy. still practicing safe social distancing. So this podcast is being recorded remotely through the magic of technology. Today's guest is Kim Cottrell. Her impressive career spans over four decades taking the form of numerous TV, theater and film roles. It was her portrayal of the sexually liberated PR executive Samantha Jones on the HBO sitcom Sex and the City and its two film sequels

that brought her worldwide attention and gained her five Emmy Award nominations and four Golden Globe nominations, including winning the 2002 Golden Globe The Best Supporting Actress. Her latest role is that of the Matriac Margaret on the Fox TV show, Filthy Rich. Welcome to the podcast, Kim. Thank you, Zing. Thank you for introducing me. How has your lockdown been?

Where are you coming to us from? I'm on Vancouver Island, where I have a home, where I grew up. My parents immigrated to Canada when I was just a baby, so they slowly but surely made their way west, which reflected more of the climate that they were used to, you know, cool summers and mild winters. So this is where I grew up between here in Liverpool, and in 2014 I bought a home here,

which was at the time, you know, quite a big decision to come home in some regards. But I'm so glad that I made it, that decision, and especially during a pandemic, It's a very restorative and safe place to be. I can only imagine because I know it is beautiful out there. It is, it is. It's a good place to get a lot of reading done.

It rains a lot. Pretty much exactly like Liverpool, so really you haven't gone very far away from your parrot's spiritual home. Yeah, there has a few more bald eagles flying around than Liverpool does. Yeah, I don't think we get that many Scouse eagles. Scouse eagles, no. So for Bookshelfy, we asked you to pick some of your favorite or top books by women, the ones that you keep returning to you, the ones that you've reread. The first book you picked is, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou.

So tell me a bit about this book. When did you first read it? I remember ordering this book. It was one of the first books that I actually did not buy directly from a bookstore. I had heard about it. I had read about it. It was a. in the middle 70s, I think, or late 70s. I think it was middle 70s. And I was still here on Vancouver Island. And I don't remember exactly how I heard about Maya Angelou, but I had already studied in New York

and she had been a dancer in New York. And I remember seeing her on an episode of the Richard Pryor show, which was a variety show in the 70s. He was a brilliant comedian. And I guess he was in his early 30s at the time, as was she. And he had her on the show, and they did a scene together. It wasn't a skit, which most of his comedy hour was.

And it was about a couple married or together, as far as I remember it, and he beat her. And it went to a very dark place, certainly for a variety show. And that's where I clued into, I guess, her pain. And I was, you know, as a young teenager, early adult, was feeling a lot of pain in the sense of who am I, what is this. And I was very much attracted to her voice and the timber of her voice. So when I heard that she had a book of poetry out, I wanted to read it because she is the caged bird. And the poetry was transformative for me. and I only really bought another book of poetry before that by Leonard Cohen,

which he's not a woman, so we won't go there but today. But it was a similar kind of awakening to a culture that I didn't know very much about, her culture, and the experiences that she had been through, being raped and abused as a child. And her healing was her writing. And I was very drawn to the timber. of her voices, I said earlier, but also the words that she used to describe who she was in that time in her life in those circumstances. And from a woman's point of view, I found it refreshing

and also daunting to read it. But I still have the book today. It's one of my treasured books. Years later, I was in Los Angeles. I was filming some TV show. And she lived in L.A. at that time. and she walked by. And I knew it was her instantly. I knew it was her. And I don't know why, but maybe it was her gate. And she was saying,

oh, what are you filming? And no one else saw anything. They just saw, you know, statuesque black woman walking by. But I knew it was, man, Antelow. And I told her sort of, I think it was like an episode of,

Darcy and Hatcher, one of those, you know, TV shows as I was just getting started and so pleased to be, you know, on a set and learning. And it was, she was like this apparition. And, and what I remember from seeing her was her joy. So this also reflected again, you know, I went home and read the, read the book again. So it's a very small novella of her, of her poems. And I just thought, wow, she's, she's got it out. You know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's sitting in her. It's part of her voice and what she needs to do. And when years later, she recited one of her poems at, I think it was Clinton's inauguration. And I felt, again, whenever I would hear her voice and her word, some kind of visceral connection to her.

I mean, it's amazing you clocked her on the street as well, but it makes sense because she's the one who had that amazing poem about having, you know, being able to walk like she's got oil wells pumping in between her thighs. Absolutely. It was, I mean, I knew that she was a dancer, but even if she wasn't a trained dancer, she carried herself in a way with such nobility. And especially when you read her poems, that indomitable spirit to carry on, it's survival, but it's inherent in who you are.

So it was, those are the memories of that book. and my unknown encounter until now of this amazing artist walking down the street. Did you let her know that you knew who she was? Or were you a little bit too starstruck? It wasn't even starstruck. It was just extraordinary. You know, it was just extraordinary to walk down the street and see, and she didn't say, hey, I'm Maya and, you know, what are you doing here?

And this is my neighborhood. If it was indeed her neighborhood, I'd, I'd, I didn't know. But nobody else knew who she was, but I did. And it was kind of like my secret. So I wasn't awestruck, but I was so fascinated. And in some ways, mesmerized by her majesty. And it wasn't on display except just in the embodiment of her standing in front of me. Like countering a living legend. Yeah, yeah. Just a woman who had found an incredible expression of her human experience, which was filled with pain. I know why the

caged bird sings. I mean, the poetry of that is inherited in the title, but it tells you so much about, first of all, what to expect in the book, but also about her experience and her being able to channel that through her work, which is what I define as an artist. Had you always been a big reader when you were growing up as a young woman or a teenage girl? I was very focused from a very early age on reading things, mostly plays and histories.

And it wasn't really until I was in my sort of middle 20s that I got more of a taste for an inquisitiveness. And part of that was I was doing a Moliere play outside of Los Angeles in San Diego. And it was a new translation of the misanthrope. And I finished the play and I came back. And it was a stretch where I wasn't working in L.A. And I didn't like L.A.

And there was a bookstore, I think it was called Dutton's bookstore, not far from where I was staying. And I walked in there and there were all these little post-its, you know, and there was a book club. And it was for Russian classics, English classics. It was all of these different kind of classics, but there was also modern fiction literature. And I signed up for it. And on the strength of that, the teacher said, you should start writing. And I took a writing course for a period of time and started to write short stories. But first of all, my introduction to really great literature happened, I think, with less of a connection of me as just an actress and wanting to expand my vocabulary of the roles that I wanted to play and the stories that I wanted to tell.

It was bad and it also was the New York Review of Books that changed my life as far as readers concerned because I couldn't find the time or the books very early on that I wanted quick enough. but I could read a review of it and the reviewers were you know like Norman Mailer you know what I mean it was like I'm reading a review of a book by Norman it was astounding to me Luxante on and on and on and Joyce Carroll owes on on on so that introduced me to more and more and more women writers in particular because when they would review a book, they would review other books that were by other authors on similar or the exact same subject. So my vision was widened exponentially just by reading that magazine. And I still, I get it. It's all over my house. It's my favorite publication because I devour it.

Do you read it back to front? Because I know so many people with a subscription to these books, these journals and, you know, they stack them up and they dip in and out. And then you find yourself reading a review from 2006 and you're like, wow, I don't read this the first time it came out. Or you reread it again and get something else. No, I hob. I hobo. Fintinotoole right now is really got me going. So I will ultimately read him first if there's in the table of contents. Or I'll just jump around or I love it. I've given it as a gift to other people who don't get it. And for whatever reason. I used to do that with the New Yorker as well, you know, reading all the reviews and articles in The New Yorker. And I just figure, you know, reading is a very, very personal

thing. So I ask them what they want now. You know, maybe they want the collection of Sunny and Shared television shows. Yeah, just a set of candles. Yeah, which is great too, But I like the gift of a subscription because if you receive the gift of a subscription to the New Yorker or the New York Review of books, it's like someone basically saying, I know you can handle this, you know? I think you've got what it takes to read it. Well, it's that. But also, you know, I still, when I'm reading it, I'm looking up words. You know, I've never heard that word or I've never heard that word used in that way, which is a distinct style and personality. of the way somebody's brain works. But I consider it, you know, I've heard people say this about the New York Review of Books that it's there. They didn't go to college or whatever, or university, or you can get their master's or whatever, but they do read the New York Review of Books.

I love that. Their education continues. And that's good enough. The second book that you picked is The Way of All Women by Esther Harding, which is not a book I'd come across before. Can you tell me a bit about it? Yes. It's about adult development and psychological development, emotional development.

And it's written by a woman called Esther Harding. It's pretty much out of print. I scoured on Amazon about 20 years ago and found two copies of it, which sadly both perished in the storm of 2012. So I lost both my copies. I was in my 40s and I was not in a relationship and I was realizing, well, actually it wasn't a relationship, but I was realizing that I wasn't going to probably have kids. Right. And, you know, they say 40s is that kind of transitional stage of looking at what you've accomplished and realizing or wondering what do you want the next half to be about.

And it's much different for a woman and it's for a man because of the biological clock as well, which was at that point for me screaming, you know, now, we've got to do this now. And coming to the decision of, I wasn't going to do it. And this book came to me, was recommended to me. And when I was talking to this ex, a partner of mine, he said, going to you're going through your age 40 transition. You should read this book by Esther Harding. She was a very young, renowned youngian therapist, and she came to New York, and she worked at the Young Institute, which still exists, it's a large brownstone, which has

Carl Jung's letters and books and even drawings. And he was very much drawn to the idea that women should be in relationships with each other and support each other. And it sounded at the time when I heard about it just like some male fantasy. But that's part of, you know, I think what his work was about and how he found it best represented by these women who had studied with them and were going to continue his work in New York. So I got the book and read it. And it was published, I think, in the 30s. And the thing that's extraordinary about this book, because there's been other books like this,

like passages is probably the most user-friendly of them, I found a handbook for, and I look back on the decades as a woman and the decisions that I made and the crossroads that I'd crossed. And I found it very helpful. It didn't feel archaic. It still felt fresh and it was useful because women and women's roles have changed so much. We've come so far since the 1930s. But Esther Harding, she was in some ways a clairvoyant to the possibilities of that and wrote about them. So I found it fascinating.

What made you realize in your 40s that you probably weren't going to have children? Because I think I read in an interview somewhere you said, you know, the workload, you were filming sex in the city was so huge, there was no way of kind of doing it and, you know, remaining sane. Well, the only way that I could have done it just physically was if I became at that time, you know, this was 1998, I would have to become a bit of a science experiment and which meant, you know, shifts and swings and, you know, my partner and I would have to be available to have sex at a certain time and I would have to, there's just no way I could have done that

in a healthy emotional or even physical state and do 19-hour days. And I was also 41. And I just thought, I have to make a decision here for my well-being. And I love to work. My work has been my passport to. to my independence and my freedom and my education. You know, that old adage you join Screen Actors Guild, you see the world is true.

I mean, if you're a successful actor, as I've been fortunate enough to be. So I, you know, the thought of in my 40s where the amount of scripts were more than cut in half because now I was in the, I was no longer considered the young lady as the men were aging. You know, my roles were being taken over by younger and younger women.

So it was being, you know, that was the system. It still is to a great degree. But the great thing is that women now are writing great parts for women. And they're in their 60s, you know. But at that time, to get a show like sex in the city, which had not at the very beginning, but became very much a women's, especially with my character, a feminist stance about sexuality in particular. So I thought to myself, I don't know if I can do this.

I can go through all of whatever the doctor tells us to do, and we can do it down to the letter, and I still might not be able to maintain a pregnancy, which is heartbreaking. You know, I've been there. And so I thought for my well-being, I was going to find another way to be, you know, to have children, to be a parent. And that's when I started after the show, in particular, finished because it was so demanding when we weren't filming the show. We were promoting the show.

And I'd never done a series before. So it was all encompassing. And it was a lot of it was a lot of fun. And I loved it. and, you know, being a new territory is always exciting, you know. So I felt like we were. And so I made the decision that I was not going to have children. Did that change the way you kind of viewed the show or approached the show at all?

No, no. She's a daunting character to play, and I'm someone like her, you know. I'm a bit of a theater geek, you know. I don't want to be the most important person in the room. I want to be looking at a few other very important people in there. And they might be, you know, more important because they're not want to be the most important person to look at. But that wasn't Samantha.

You know, I tell a story a lot when I'm interviewed and questions of sex in the city come up about inhabiting that spirit, you know, this modern. day Aphrodite, trying to make it real at the same time. And we had to do this scene where Samantha was being photographed. And of course, they're photographing me and she's been photographed nude. Now, photographing me nude is a completely different situation than photographing Samantha nude. And I didn't have any dialogue. I didn't have any objective that I could play in the scene.

I was kind of stuck in that moment of, well, I'm not Kim and I'm not Samantha and I feel really uncomfortable. So I had to drop my robe and present in front of the camera. So I went behind these flats that were set up on the soundstage and I just improvised a little bit. And I inhabited this, Svue, this crazy gal. spirit, that's Aphrodite, as I call. And I could do it. So, yeah, just taking it on, it took a lot. And I just thought, I can't do both. You know, the thing about women is that we're so extraordinary. We do everything. We strive to do it really, really well, you know, not so much in a competitive way.

but I think since I've have some status in the world, I feel that behooves me to be honest and forthright about what I care about, especially when women are concerned and young women. And I think also, you know, like you say, women are expected to do it all, and we do do it all very successfully, that sometimes saying no to things and walking away is actually just, you know, quite a powerful act in and of itself. Oh, it's that walking away, even if it's,

you know, the only thing to do is you always feel, it's a bit of shame, I think. It's a taste of shame. And you have to let go of that. You know, it's like you don't want to become that, that cage bird. You don't want to be in that cage. You, like, may I, you've got to get on with your life. Do you think, I mean, how much of this shame is, you know, women putting it on themselves and how much of it is projected by society onto women. I know that's a really hard question, but it's something that I've been thinking about a lot. I think that's one of the questions that you have to take on a case-by-case basis. And the first thing you have to listen to is viscerally how it's affecting you.

Because the way my chemistry works is that's what I have to hold on to because that's usually, because I can explain it away afterwards. but viscerally, you know, I have to listen to that visceral reaction. Yeah. As a woman of my generation, how that affects me. Got instinct. It's very powerful. Yeah, as I said, each circumstance, you know, that you're faced with,

I always advise taking a nice big, deep breath and just trying to get centered with whatever is going on, your instinct. I like that. I think a lot of people don't actually listen today. instinct and spend more so their lives trying to ignore it or rationalize it away? Or be a good girl or do the right thing. Or be honorable or being wanted to be liked is a huge one with women. Oh, 100%.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even the way people talk, you know, the upspeak is, do you really think so? I mean, that's what I want. It's like they're questioning all the time of who they are and what they know what they want. And it's a protective mechanism. It can be a very protective mechanism. How do you get over an instinct to want to, to want people to like you, basically? Is it something that just comes, you know, with experience? I think you've got to like yourself first.

Important thing. And ultimately, don't give a shit if somebody doesn't. Because, you know, someone sent me that in a little saying, if you didn't learn that in high school, that was like the reason to go to high school. That in algebra, I haven't, or calc, I never, I never used any of those, never mastered them, but I know how to take care of myself and stick up for myself. And we need to do that, not just with men, but with other women. And sometimes high school does pay off. Yes, as painful as it is. Yes, does. This podcast is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish cream. Bayle's is proudly, supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people.

Bailey's is the perfect adultery, whether in coffee, over ice cream, or paired with your favorite book. Pay a visit to the number one ladies detective agency, Botswana's Premier and Only Female Lead Investigative Bureau, with Alexander McCallsmith's A Song of Comfortable Chairs. Join Mara Mottesway in this latest tale of life's trial. and tribulations that will require all of her cleverness and generosity to resolve. A song of comfortable chairs, where every page contains a gem of wit and wisdom, is out now in hardback, e-book and audiobook. The third book you picked is Life Before Man by Margaret Atwood.

Yes. Tell me a bit about this book. I'm a big Margaret Atwood fan. Who isn't? She was one of the first Canadian writers that I ever read. her and Alice Monroe, who I'm also a massive fan of. Both those writers did something for me in literature that no other writers have done, which is they took me to places that I knew. I know Toronto. I know Vancouver Island. They both live, work, write about those cities. So I was planted in their stories, in their books in a very specific way. And also they're both Canadian. And I

I am a Canadian. So I found a shorthand to the stories that they were telling about relationships and about place that was so immediate that I had to put them on the list. I was recently asked to contribute to the Wall Street Journal about who read what, which is something that I enjoy reading. And I picked Hamnet because I just finished reading it and I thought Maggie O'Farrell did a fantastic job. I loved it, especially as an actress wanting to know more and more about the most incredible writer that ever lived, Shakespeare, in my humble opinion. And it was similar for me in her book when she put me in Stratford because in 1968 I went to Stratford.

And I saw my first play. And it was an astounding moment of realization and just like a narcotic drawing me into wanting to tell stories. And the play I saw was 12th night, which has got great parts for women in it. I mean, yeah, it's gender bending. It's so...

Absolutely. Really. It's got all of it right there and music. And life before men is, I got so involved with this. It's also about fidelity and the protagonist works in a natural history museum. So there was something about revealing, for me, as a reader, revealing at an early age, not just a place that I knew and a city that I knew, but and I'd also been to the natural history museum there. So I could walk in Margaret's world. It wasn't just that, but the reveal of those relationships and the subtlety of it and the beauty of her writing. I wanted very much to turn it into a film. But it's like a lot of great novels. They're very difficult to translate to the action is, it's active, but it's in your head. It's not like Handmaid's Tale where it's boom, boom, boom, things happening.

No, no, no, no. This is a, it's a beautiful book, though. It's funny you mentioned Hamlet because it actually won the women's prize for fiction this year. I know, you know, I asked Kate to send me a copy, and she sent me a copy from Maggie that was signed with a note saying, I saw your Cleopatra in Liverpool. Of course, this book now. will be with me for the rest of my life, you know, it will in the imagery and how well written it is. But she, like Life Before Man, she put me in a place that I knew. And from there, so much more is possible with my imagination as a reader than I springboard into so much more because I'm not fighting for details of how different it is. I know it's so different.

It's not second nature to me. I know what the streetcar sound like. It's interesting because I don't, I mean, I guess I've read. mainly Margaret Atwood's science fiction. And so I don't really think of her as a Canadian author. So I've not read Life and Man. And, you know, this is always the thing, I think, with British people who are coming to North America and they go, is there a difference between Americans and Canadians? It's all on the same bland class, isn't it?

The Americans say that, not just Brits say that. Right. We live on the border of a very strong pull called the United States. but I just became an American citizen actually because I wanted to vote in this election and I you know my my home is is I have a home here now but my home for over 40 years has been and my career has mostly been in the United States but we we Canadians are quite different I mean there is a feeling sometimes that if you leave Canada you're never really forgiven but I'm sure it's like that with

you know, expats everywhere, you know, when they come home. Oh, okay. Where have you been? I mean, I guess, I mean, for, well, hopefully this will change, but I feel like with people who managed to leave America over the last few years, people were like, oh, lucky you. You got out. Well, we'll see what happens.

I mean, I have great faith. I saw you tweeting about Biden and I presume it's worked out well. So far, yes, yes. So far, so good, step by step. Yeah, it's been an extraordinary time. It really has. It's been living in New York City during this, especially, you know, I take the underground, the subway. And there's things that I've seen, I've never seen in New York. And I've lived in New York since the 70s, since 1973, off and on. And there's a, there was before the pandemic, before things shut down, there was a, it was a hotbed. And where I live is not that far, from Trump Tower. And it just destroyed that part of the city. You know, it just became a circus.

What kind of stuff did you see? I haven't been to New York for years. Well, it's all barricaded up, you know. Yeah. There's the street on either side of Trump Tower off Fifth Avenue are completely barricaded and there's high, high security. And there's people protesting constantly or, you know, people with, masks of the present president, people having their picture taken with him.

It's, uh, when I moved to New York in 1973, uh, the George McGovern had just lost. And, um, uh, Nixon was in. And it was that kind of malaise has set in. It was like after 9-11, that kind of feeling of, and I'm not comparing, uh, you know, the, the misery. You can't between 9-11 and an election that doesn't go the way that you wanted to. But there was a feeling of containment in the city of what now, you know, what now? We know who this person is. He's been in, he's lived in New York all of his life. We know who, but the rest of the world sees him differently.

And it's like the shoe dropped and there was a silence. That silence, you know, became a roar. And fortunately, we have a new president coming in. I mean, did you ever encounter Trump in any circles in New York that you ran in? Oh, yeah. Oh, really? Yes. He was in Texan City.

He was in a scene, in Texan City. And we were, yeah, we were shooting at the Plaza, which he owned at the time. And I don't know whether it was under the contract to shoot at the Plaza. I'm not sure. but it seemed if you shot at the plaza, he had to be in the show. Right. So he was in the background, and it was a very funny episode. Samantha was wanting to date this older guy.

And the writers and producers wanted to give this older man, wasn't Trump. They wanted to give him status right away in the sense of Wheeler, dealer, New York, you know, celebrity. which Donald Trump is. And so they had him sitting at a table, that character, who was sitting at a table with Trump. And I was in the foreground of Samantha having a drink and looking over, looking at him because Trump was there with somebody and who was he with because she's a PR maven, Samantha.

And she might need to feed that for a column or whatever. So she's looking over and the gentleman with Trump raises his glass to Samantha and then stops. And then Trump leaves and he comes up to the bar. So he came to makeup in full orange makeup and hair and with a limousine. And he was gone before lunch. It was like he was in his own world. You didn't speak to him or anything. No, I did not.

And he didn't, when we came to the set, he did not introduce himself. I mean, I think it was the third season of the show. So it had hit. You know, it was a watched show already on HBO. One of the crew members said, you know, hey, they diss, he dissed us. You know, usually a guest star, especially somebody who's known in New York, you know, like Bloomberg or someone or would come up and shake hands and say, hi, you know, we're New Yorkers. You know, there's a whenever we would shoot and somebody would walk by just, you know, randomly as happens,

especially as a city of York. It was always a welcoming hi, but not in this case. Interesting. Very interesting. I think a real insight into the kind of personality he was, is. Yeah, just is, yeah. So the fourth book you picked is Sexual Personne by Camille Paglia. Yeah.

When did you read this book? You know, I came to this book in a very weird way. I read an article that Harvey Kytel was being interviewed. He had a movie coming out. And I've always loved Harvey Kytel, always. And he's married actually to a Canadian, a really lovely woman. And he recommended it. He had just read it.

And he was going on and on about it in the interview. It was taking over the interview. And I thought, I got to get this bug. And so I did. And I have to say, I am still reading it. It's so dense. And it's so brilliant about women and how, women in a men's world function. It's a brilliant book. It's letters and essays and

she's a brilliant writer. I mean, you know, is Hollywood still considered quite a man's world? I think the world is considered a man's world, don't you? Yeah. Still, I think so, definitely. Yeah. I think it's changing, though. One step forward, two steps back. but I'm growing impatient you know I'm 64 and I want to hurry up I want to see it all I want to see more what would you like to see more of well I you know I think one of the reasons

personally that I became a producer was is that I wanted to see women in their 60s on television I wanted to see them on in films You know, I want to see plays about them, new plays about them. I've always been very curious. I play characters. I play women. A lot of them are very different than myself.

But there are questions that I continue to have. And most of them are about getting older. I didn't see my grandparents. Both my grandfather's passed away before I was born. and my grandmothers. So I never really saw getting older up close. And my profession is not comfortable with that. You know, I find now people say,

oh, you're looking great for your age. It's just, you know, look great. You look great for your age. But that's been happening since, you know, my 50s. And I have a sense of humor about it. And it's not just from, believe me, that's the least of it from the outside. And the inside is, you know,

in your 60s, your body is starting to change dramatically. I mean, in the 50s, you're going through menopause. And this is the aftermath of that. And getting comfortable, again, with your body. It's always shifting and changing. And watching my mother at 91, almost 92, is an incredible gift in a way, sometimes a cautionary tale of sorts

and you won't know until you get there what I mean by that but I want to use you know my platform to tell stories about women my age who have gone through loss loss is the biggest heading

for my 60s so far I've lost my father I've lost my brother and you know I've hit a few walls because of exhaustion and realizing that I have a big engine I've always known that but I have to recalibrate it I have to give it overhauls more and those overhauls are just sometimes about getting on plane and getting to Vancouver Island and doing nothing but reading the New York Review of Books I feel like this year in particular as well is a year that everyone has experienced some kind of loss. If you've not lost a loved one or someone you're close to,

you know, that loss of the world kind of getting a bit smaller. Yeah. But nobody ever really talks about that, you know. No. It's a lot of events too. I mean, there's, um, my brother committed suicide.

And that has been, um, you know, I think there's something, there's, you're left again with so many answer, unanswered questions. You're in so many unanswered questions about death, period. But when it's that shocking and that immediate,

it's a blind-sighting experience. And it changes you. It changes you irrevocably. And in some ways for the good. It makes you more aware of the world and how vulnerable people are, how vulnerable we all are. I think I read a Guardian interview with you where you said you no longer want to do things

you don't enjoy, which sounds so simple, but, you know, it's revolutionary, really, because people go through life doing so many things they absolutely hate and they just put up with it. Yeah, I mean, I remember getting a lot of grief on social media for not wanting to do a film. And it was astonishing some of the things that people wrote to me. like, you know, I work in a bank and I don't like this person and I don't like the hours. I don't like this and I do it. So you just do it. Oh, my God. So much misery, you know, give me what I want. I do it. I'm miserable. You'd be miserable too.

I am lucky enough to have choice, not that I haven't worked for it, but I haven't. It's something that I feel very lucky to have and I'm very protective of it. But I wouldn't be any good doing something that I really didn't want to do. And I have a great appetite for telling stories that I haven't heard before. In some ways, it just helps me work things out. And when I'm not doing that or in the pursuit of that, you know, the Margaret Monroe and Filthy Rich is a completely different journey for me. And she's in her 60s and she loses her husband.

Of course, she finds out ultimately that he's alive, but she believes that he's died in his plane crash. And a lot of people just saw it as a soap opera. I saw it about a woman enraged. Hell hath no fury because when he dies, he's on a plane with hookers. And I always knew he was with hookers. And all of that comes home to roost for her. And the way she handles it with her intelligence and her rage.

And a rageful woman, you know, is a really scary thing for people. And they want to make you crazy. You can't just be mad. You can't just be, you know, disappointed or pissed, meaning pissed off, not drunk. You know, that become, you have to contain that, like, sexuality. You have to contain it. It's too powerful. And powerful women who are angry are really terrifying, even to women, even though they feel, yeah,

she's got a right to be angry. But it doesn't look nice. So to be able to play a character, you know, I did a David Mammett play. at the Donmar warehouse. And it's called the cryptogram, and it was like a cryptogram, because I couldn't access it. It took me a long time and rehearsed all of us.

And it was sort of like a dance of death, you know, it was very rough territory, savage territory. And in that play too, there is a betrayal, a huge betrayal. And I chose within one of the scenes for her to just rage. And she rages by saying his name, Bobby. And it's Bobby, Bobby, Bobby, Bobby. But she wants to kill him. She wants to eviscerate him with her rage of what he's put her through. And I had very sophisticated friends come and see it and say, I couldn't see that. That was too terrifying for me. I couldn't. And I also would get off stage feeling

relieved of the performance. Thank God it was only an hour play. The whole play was an hour long. But I remember coming, you know, people would come backstage and I say, so do you like the show when they were like, it was terrifying. It's terrifying because it's suffocated. Because we're not used to seeing women. It's not integrated.

And I think that brings us really nicely onto your final book, speaking of powerful women, who aren't afraid of their anger or rage, because you've picked beloved by Tony Morrison, who is another icon of literature. Yes, yes. When did you first encounter this book? I think it was in the early middle 80s when it came out. It was such a clear voice, you know, that you're so drawn to. And again, a world that I didn't know, but as so fascinated by.

and the element of witchcraft or perceived witchcraft based on this horrendous event and the way this woman was having to live her life with this destructive force every day that was something that she had to live with. And then I saw the film, I think I went to the movie theater to see the film when it came out. about because it was Oprah loved the book and everybody was of course it was on her book list and everybody was then reading it and and when I would see Tony Morrison in these interviews she was just so impressive you know so connected and again an amazing voice and you think again where does it come from you know where it's it's her experiences it's experiences of the people around her the way she her, you know, her destiny to become an educator and then become this amazing author. So I, I saw the film and I thought Jonathan Demi, who directed it, did a magical job. There's one

scene in particular where the townspeople are in the forest and they're singing and they're speaking. And it just spoke of community. So I love that book. I mean, you're a huge reader. Have you ever... I wouldn't say I'm a huge reader. I try, I'm unexplicably drawn to something and I don't question it. My mom got to grade six. My dad probably the same. And then they had to go to work, you know, and go to the army. My dad was an officer in the British Army, and he served in India after the war. And, you know, he wasn't a great reader, but my mom was a great reader, but not of literature, of pulp fiction. She loved Pulks Fiction and science fiction. I grew up with Isaac Asimov's covers all over our house, you know, and these kind of creepy, so I fly things.

And I thought, I'm not reading that. And then reading the chrysalis, you know, thinking, wow, there's really something to this science fiction. I kind of like it. But I was always drawn to the classics and then spending time in England. When I read Van Gogh. Fair, I just thought, I want to be Becky Sharp. Give me a Becky Sharp, you know, because it was fresh. She had an opinion. She wanted something. She was going to strive for it, you know.

And she didn't come from a birth that was just by chance. She arrived. She had an objective. And it was ambitious. Oh, shouldn't be ambitious. girls have the ambitious. I love those characters. They danced for me. They just, they spoke, I guess, you know. And I feel for my mom at 90, almost 92, you know, I think for her, she had to overcome a lot of frustration. And because she just didn't have the opportunity that her daughters had. And her grandchildren have and her now great grandchildren will have. And I think that that that was tough. It wasn't until my mom went into assisted living, that she sort of came to peace with that and didn't look at, you know, with pride, but also could have been me,

but it wasn't me because that didn't happen then. But in her 90s now, sort of coming to terms with what she did experience and what that was like during, you know, the Great Depression in World War II and being evacuated. and being a pioneer and coming to a new country, all of those things. And to be with people who shared those experiences meant a lot to her. So I think she's come in peace with that. And I think also the post-World War II generation in the UK, especially the women, you know, they spent World War II basically propping up the country

while the men were away fighting this war overseas. And then the men came back. And then before you know it, women are back in the kitchen. They're being expected to take care of their kids. the jobs that they had, they have to go back to the men. It's a real social shift when you look at it that way. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of women wanted to go back to that as well. But enough women got into the workforce and said, I like this.

The thing that's extraordinary mentoring these young women that I do now is finding the gaps in their education as far as where we've come from. not technology, not factual, just the emotional journey of what women have been through. When I heard that Gloria Steinem, you know, that they were going to do a documentary about her life, who someone that I really looked up to, Bella Abzu as well, and I, they didn't, these young girls in the producer of that at HBO, one of her assistants, didn't know who she was. Right. Gloria Stein.

And, you know, that's just one voice in many voices. But I'm floored by the lack of, you know, also doing something like, who do you think you are, which was an extraordinary experience in the fact that really within a generation, everything had been lost because of one man's immoral behavior, but it was gone. And I had no attachment to it. So doing that show gave me that. Finding out about your ancestor.

It was an extraordinary experience. And we need to tell stories. You know, we need to continue to tell stories to young women, not just about the internet, you know, and the popular TV shows. We need to not just dramatize. We need to tell those stories. It's not just that it's forgotten, that it's instilled in a way of understanding how far we've,

come and how easy it is to be lost. And I'm not just talking about for women. I'm talking about democracy, you know. If we forget how hard it is to maintain, you know, they don't know what has been fought for in a way. I mean, if anything, I think the last five years has kind of shown how easily stuff can just backslide, which is a scary thing. And how propaganda is a new fear, you know, this internet can be used in many different ways that can be terrifying. Both good and bad. So those are my book. One last.

Ha ha, not a comedy within them. Jesus Christ. I like, I mean, it's not every bookshelfy we get where you go from Margaret Atwood to Youngian text, which is out of print, but now I'm desperate to read it. So if anyone knows of another Amazon listing for it, not Amazon. preferably an independent bookstore, please let me know. Yeah, exactly. So you've been so generous with your time.

I just had one more question, which is the one that people always hate. If you had to choose one book from the list as a favorite, which one would it be? Oh, my God. Oh, boy, that's really hard, isn't it? I would have to say maybe the Paglia book, because I'm still reading it.

I haven't finished it. It's so dense. So I guess that would be that. And I mean, I know why the cagebird sings because it was a seminal experience, you know, seeing an author and following her. And she was so different from everything in my life. And that's the beauty of fiction.

You know, it can, it can recapture. kindle what you know or it can transport you into a world you know nothing about, but you are instantly breathing and living that world. That to me is the brilliance of writers, what they do. I mean, without a good writer, my job is much harder. As a reader, it made easier by great writing, and that's what I look for. I think that's a brilliant testimony for the power of literature. Yes, it is. It is. I wish more Americans would travel because that is a way to experience the world and yourself in it that's unlike anything else.

And I don't mean just going to ruins. I mean, maybe just going for a different kind of lunch. And if you can't afford it, just read a book. Yeah. Thank you so much, Kim, for joining us on the podcast. Thanks. Next time, or if we ever do this again, or hopefully at some point, in the podcast, there'll be so many wonderful female writers already recognized as they should be and always have been that I could include one or two guys. Yes, I mean, that's to go eventually. We'll see if we get there.

Yes, maybe not in our lifetime. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Bye. I'm Zing Singh, and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast, brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. This was the final episode of this season, so we will be taking a short break. But do join us in the spring when we'll be back with weekly episodes showcasing even more female talent. Please click subscribe and don't forget to rate and review this podcast. It really helps spread the word.

Thank you very much for listening and see you next time. May a visit to the number one ladies detective agency, Botswana's premier and only female-led investigative bureau. with Alexander McCall-Smith's A Song of Comfortable Chairs. Join Mara Motzwe in this latest tale of life's trials and tribulations that will require all of her cleverness and generosity to resolve. A song of comfortable chairs, where every page contains a gem of wit and wisdom, is out now in hardback, e-book and audiobook.