Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S2 Ep7: #ReadingWomen: Nationhood

Episode Date: May 5, 2020

In this episode Zing Tsjeng is joined by actress, comedian and cartoonist Jessie Cave, comedian Jessica Fostekew and actor, musician, and one-half of Rizzle Kicks, Jordan Stephens. The theme of today's #ReadingWomen book club is nationhood – a big, meaty issue that’s never felt more relevant in this day and age. The panel dive into the 2018 winner Home Fire by Kamila Shamsie, The Road Home by Rose Tremain - our 2008 winner - and Bel Canto by Ann Patchett which won the prize back in 2002. Every fortnight, join Zing Tsjeng, editor at VICE, and inspirational guests, including Dolly Alderton, Stanley Tucci, Liv Little and Scarlett Curtis as they celebrate the best fiction written by women. They'll discuss the diverse back-catalogue of Women’s Prize-winning books spanning a generation, explore the life-changing books that sit on other women’s bookshelves and talk about what the future holds for women writing today. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and this series will also take you behind the scenes throughout 2020 as we explore the history of the Prize in its 25th year and gain unique access to the shortlisted authors and the 2020 Prize winner. Sit back and enjoy. This podcast is produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices, and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Zing Singh, your host, once again, for a brand new season of the Women's Prize podcast, coming to you every fortnight throughout 2020. This year is the 25th anniversary of the Women's Prize for Fiction, and you've joined me for a special episode in which we are challenging you to a year of reading women. From Zadie Smith's White Teeth to Chimamanda Ingozzi and Dice's half of a yellow

sun and Naomi Alderman's The Power, we are spotlighting all 24 women's prize winning books during this podcast series, with eight special book club episodes in which three guests discussed three of the brilliant winning novels from the past years. You'll also hear from the women who've judged the prize during its lifetime, so you'll be getting not one but two hot takes from the past 25 years of the prize, alongside a new generation of readers coming the books in 2020. And we want you to join in the conversation. Go to hashtag reading women on Twitter and Instagram to share your thoughts as you read along and head to the Women's Prize website at women's prizeforfiction.co.uk to learn about all 24 books, read samples, dive into our reading

guides and exclusive interviews with the authors, plus lots more to help set you off on your reading journey. Welcome back for another episode of Reading Women. Now we are still on a coronavirus lockdown, So please excuse any minor hiccups with our sound quality. I am joined today virtually, of course, through The Magic of Technology, by a bunch of amazing guests, Jesse Cave, an actress, comedian and cartoonist, comedian Jessica Fosterkew, and finally actor, musician and one half of Rizzle kicks, Jordan Stevens. Welcome, everyone. Hello.

Thank you so much for joining me. Pleasure. Yeah, thank you for the invite. Yeah, I've never been in a book club before. This is exciting. I'm nervous. Virgin, this is a good way start. I mean, today's book club is all about nationhood, which is this big, meaty issue that has never felt more relevant in this day and age. So to explore the theme,

this book club is diving into the 2018 winner Homefire by Camila Shamsi, the Road Home by Rose Tremaine, our 2008 winner, and Belcanto by Anne Patchett, which won the prize back in 2002. Now, everyone, tell me what you made of reading all these books together. Are you guys big readers? Jesse, how did you find it? It was quite a struggle to read three books within a month, but I treated it like a job and I really did it, which was, it was weird because now I can't imagine

reading three books in a month ever again. I regret that I haven't kept that up really because it was so nice having, getting used to reading a bit quicker, because I'm usually quite, yeah. Yeah. I think that's why reading on holiday works so well because you're like, my holiday is going to take two weeks,

I better finish this book. Yeah. Jordan, what was your experience of reading all three? I definitely, I'm not as, I'm not the best reader in the world. I think I have a kind of bizarre relationship with books in that. I find the first few chapters often really difficult, and then I become super addicted and struggled to put the book down. for some reason can't like that that doesn't isn't enough for me to then pursue a consistent cycle do

I mean Jess how did you find reading all these books yeah I've exactly the same thing actually of as both of you in the sense that I've I always am wishing to read more than I read um so being given some reading to do ostensibly for work or definitely for work um was amazing like I was like this is it. This is what, this is the dream, isn't it? Like having to, like, I'm afraid I've got some work to do and sit away with a book. Yes, please. And but also, Jordan exactly the same. Like I, um, I can't remember the last book that from, I can't remember ever actually a book that from chapter one, I was like, and I'm in. Like, everything has taken me a wise. Same as sort of lots of Netflix series actually. It's like, please try and hook me in. Try, I think, you

bother trying to hook me in until, but yeah. It's the, that's the, that's the whole, yeah. I think that's the whole, what's what I'm looking for? It's the battle with like progression. You're supposed to ease into characters and ease into stories and then you're locked in rather than, because I think about that with like the wire versus Breaking Bad, for example. Like I love both seasons, but I would say to somebody, you're almost investing more with the wire than Breaking Bad,

but Breaking Bad will grip you instantly and not let you. go. It's a weird one. Yeah, Jesse, were you kind of gripped by any of these books? Yeah, but I have the same thing with I really have to commit for the first few chapters. And then I'm always so surprised because sometimes I can get interested immediately and then just lose, just completely go off it. But with all three of these books, I really wasn't into it immediately. And then was so surprised by how, how, how, how gripped I was. And I would never have picked these books up. So I'm so glad that I was forced to. That's what we enjoy doing, forcing people to read. I would never have picked them up. I would never have chosen these themes or so, and I was so surprised by

my initial reaction to them and how different that was at the end. So what about reading these three books together? Do you think that they were an interesting experience to read as a trio? Definitely. Yeah, I mean, they're stylistically all really different. I found one of them much harder to get into, but when I did, I loved it than the others. Yeah, lots of kind of tricky relationships, especially parent and father and kid relationships, nationhood, travel, ideas of home, death. I mean, they all ring. ring around in all of them massively. Definitely. Jordan, what was your experience? Yeah, I didn't, when hearing that, the feedback, I'm kind of thinking to myself, like, my God, have I just totally slipped out of. I was aware, of course, that the themes within the three books were, well, not only

nationhood, but also, well, in two certainly, it's the idea of kind of alienation within a nation, which I find, yeah, I find that like, incredibly topical, something that, you know, the concept of kind of a refugee-based kind of existence is something that I think applies across the globe constantly and affects every kind of angle of our experience as people. But I found myself, I've realized in reading the books, though, that the kind of politics of reading, for some reason, I'm not as, that's not what catches me about books. For some reason, it's always the, I'm obsessed with, the human experience, like the kind of emotional interaction between characters and whatever else.

Like that seems, and the way it's written, that's what catches me. Oh, interesting. More character-based stuff. Yeah, it's like, yeah, I don't know how to, I'm, I love an author who's able to provide a way of describing an interaction in a way that I've never conceived before or using a situation as an allegory for something else or that that is what draws me in rather than, the concept in its whole. Does that make sense? Yeah, no. I think some people are, you know, really gripped by narrative and plotty twists and turns.

And some people are real character people. They want to feel like they read a book and they understand someone so completely. What about you, Jesse? What do you look for in a book? Well, I, I'm not a very varied reader. So I like what I like, which I'm going to try and change. but I need to follow one character usually and feel like I'm in their head. And all of these books, I didn't feel that they don't have one main voice. So that was quite different for me.

I usually need to, I tend to read way more nonfiction than fiction. So with each of these three books, I found it amazing how different they were in the voice. voices. And one in particular, I just could not connect with at all because it would be how many voices there were. Interesting. Whereas other two, my favorite one, even though I had different voices, I felt I felt each of their voices. I completely knew who they were by the way they were

written immediately and because of the story and the general, the concept of the book. So it needs a book for me to be brilliant has to tick quite a few boxes, but the main one being I really get who I'm following and the journey of the main, you know, I know what's going on with that main person. Totally. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I know which book you're talking about, which is the one. I think you're going to introduce to us.

Is it Homefire by Camilla Shamsi that you're talking about? The one that I loved. Yes. Yeah, I completely loved that one. That was definitely my favourite, mainly because it followed the story of two siblings and I just love anything about siblings. And the story was just so unique and otherworldly for me.

If you could, it would be great if you could give us a really brief synopsis. A brief synopsis, I'll try. So it's about three siblings, Isma, Anika and Parvei. Their mother has just died. And their father, it becomes clear, was actually a jihadist. And so they're in three, we follow Isma at the beginning. She's in America. And we find out that she's basically gone there for a purpose,

which was to connect with the son of a someone quite high up in, politics in the UK. And basically it's a story of how the three siblings all basically stop one of the siblings becoming a jihadist like their father. And it's so, it's so, it's so moving and devastating. And it's just about sibling love and loyalty and duty. And And I just found it completely moving and breathtaking and shocking. Jess, where did you make of homefire? Yeah, similarly, I absolutely loved it. And I think it was my favourite of the three as well.

It's close, but I think it was as well. I felt like we were talking about just before, about how, you know, you get people that want to be inside a character's head or inside various characters' heads in this case or who are really into plot, like, need to be thrown about by a plot. I felt like this had everything in that sense. Like, I really felt like it was really, I don't know, I can swear, really flipping thrilling.

You can swear to that, it was really fucking thrilling. It was, I felt really invested in all of these siblings, but I also felt like it took, it took quite an ordinary situation and then made it quite extraordinary and I felt like it dealt with such extreme emotions and experiences with such a soft touch that it just felt easy to read this really like alarming story. I mean awful and amazing things. quite fantastically awful and amazing things happen to this family.

But it's written in a way where you realise how normal this might be. And I don't know, you know, it's fiction, so I don't know if it's normal. It's one writer's portrayal of this. But I thought that was really deftly done. And, yeah, you know, obviously you can't spoil anything, but it's, it takes you from somewhere quite, I think, sort of simple, right through to I can't remember the last time I had to heave and weep and sob my way to the end of a book. And for context, I had to, I did finish that one before we were in a pandemic, before I was heaving and sobbing and crying everything.

24-7. I know the feeling. What I know most of the way that it begins, because we start with Isma being at the airport and border officials. she was kind of being way too harsh on her and asking her too many questions. And that kind of the, it seems like it's going to be a story about something that we, we see in the news about discrimination and stuff. But it becomes something so much more complicated and complex. And we, it just, it kind of, the way that the three siblings all have different

relationships with each other. And even though Isma isn't as close. to her as the other two siblings are to each other. The love and the duty and the responsibility to each other is just amazing how that sibling bond never really dies and it just drives your whole life really. And just things I just completely take for granted, you know, how at the airport, the scene at the beginning,

it just kind of, it just very, it eases us in to the discrimination every day, and the things that we just never really think about are just such huge daily issues for them, you know? Jordan, what did you make of it? The actual political commentary that the book is laced with, I found quite tough in a way just because I mean, I'm not Muslim,

but I have a lot of friends around me who have experienced the kind of oppression, I suppose, faced by a nation that is unaccepting, you know? And I think, like, so I've initially actually found it quite triggering in a way, especially with the, especially with the implementation of their being a representative of the Muslim community in the British government. like that I was like a lot. Yeah, it's very prescient.

Yeah, like especially now, I was like, I can't handle that. It feels like a real, like deep kind of rage. But I'm a bit sad because I know that this book has been, you know, like highly commended and I can hear the passion in the other in Jess and Jesse. But it was, for me, it was the example. of like my my issue with um just the actual like wording of things nothing to do with the actual content of the book for some reason i found the sentences really difficult to engage with um and and and actually the shift in voice for some reason through me i feel like really upset

i feel i feel upset because it's like it's it's it's i get this sometimes like you know where where it's just it's not about what's being said it's how it's being said it's to me. I've had it before with like emails even. You know, if someone structures an email in a certain way, I can't, I can't, um, process it properly. I think it's so subjective though, the way you read a book, like one person's idea of incredible writing fly is another person's idea of just being overwritten and pretentious. Right. Yeah. So I, I, I think the, you know, the, the bits about, the bits about writing that I adore are, you know, are those, those, the description of interactions and, and, and being able to place myself in an abstract something,

I don't know, amidst the concept. And I didn't feel as into that. It's interesting, you mentioned the home office minister, who in the book is nicknamed Lone Wolf because he's so kind of aggressive and political and manipulative. Because I actually didn't know this when I read the book, but this book predates people like Sajut Javid and Priti Patel being literally home secretaries.

I know. And apparently, Camilla Shamsi, Camilla Shamsi got nicked and named Nostra Shamsi as a Nostradamus by her friends for predicting that this would happen. Wow. It's, I mean, look, it's a real, that's what I mean about it being, like, deeply kind of,

just summoning some kind of deep emotion because it's, it's that idea of becoming something other or betraying a part of yourself in order to be accepted, that's like, you know, I think that conceptually isn't new, but for it to be such an accurate portrayal of what would happen is scary. Now, I know both some of you, well, two out of three of you mentioned that the thing you really loved about this was the character's voices. Did you have a favourite character out of the different voices that are assembled in the book?

The younger sister, I really think of the older sister. Even though Isma takes a back seat towards the end of the book, I feel like the setting up of the story and the statuses of each of the siblings are so important and the introduction just kind of of her character and her story. And the fact that there's so much deceit, really clever work done by these sisters on behalf of their brother. Yeah. I just think Isma's the brain behind that. she, I'm an older sister

and I just, the, the responsibility and the the lengths you would go to to protect them, even if they don't like you for it, is, I can relate to. Real love. Yeah. Your sibling love.

Yeah. Jess, what about you? I think I, um, I really love the younger sister, but only because I just found something about her so compelling. I didn't think it was a, I I didn't have any more respect for her than I for any of the other characters. Also, I think it's about that balance, isn't it?

It's just brilliant writing in the sense that you've got such a lovely, diverse group of personalities who are so clearly still all from the same nest, you know, and this, like you said, protectionism between them and stuff. But I could at least identify with the brother, but equally, I think it's just a sort of age and experience situation. I didn't feel, I still felt empathy for him, a lot of it, and I think it's very cleverly done. But I think what was really nicely balanced

between the sisters was that sort of sensibility of the elder one and sacrifice, actually. But then it also needed the sort of fire in the belly of the younger sister to sort of make the thrillingness of it all move along. Yeah. I mean, it's very operatic.

It's very tragic. Yeah. So I think we're going to move on to our next book now. But before we do that, Let's hear from Sarah Sands, the editor of the Today program on the BBC and chair of the judging panel in 2018. She's going to tell us why Homefire was picked as the winner. It was a book that immediately stood out. It was gripping plot. And it was also, you had this resonance because it had these echoes of antiquony.

So it was a sort of Greek tragedy in a way supplanted into contemporary. issues. So, and it was really about sort of conflict of loyalties, you know, family, faith, politics. And so there were big themes, but it was done in a very sort of contained way you understood the characters and it did have this really obviously compelling ending. So it was a book you couldn't put down, but that had, but that left you with a sense of, of, had a trail to It wasn't just a, it wasn't just, just plot. It was much more than that. Now, remember, you can join in the discussion we're having by using the hashtag reading women.

On to our second book, The Road Home by Rose Tremaine. Rose Tremaine's book is a very moving story about an immigrant who leaves home for a supposedly better life in the UK. And it won the prize in 2008. So I think, Jess, you were going to give us a plot summary of this one. Yeah, so I had a funny thing with this one actually, right? Where when we received the books, I didn't, I thought that's exciting, I hadn't read any of these. And then I opened this one and was like, oh, God, I have. It was years ago, but I remember it because I read, but I don't remember stuff from books or TV series or films.

I have sort of rubbish memory for story and narrative, weirdly. but with this there was a moment in it that I had never ever forgotten and so I was really delighted to get to read it again and so it's the story of this man in his sort of mid to late 30s but there's a world weariness about him that makes him seem older than that I think who is moving from Poland to London of little village in

in Poland and he's leaving behind his mum and his daughter. So Leves moving to the UK and it starts with him already on his journey on a coach and he befriends a woman or a woman befriends him on that journey and she stays

present throughout his story as it goes on and oh I mean it's about his time trying to settle it's about how accepted he he isn't and then is it's about all of the flaws so I feel like no one

no one character in this gets let off from being shown as them at their most monstrous as well as... No, I think that's definitely true and Love himself isn't a perfect character by any means. Oh God, no there's one particular moment in it

that's like oh you know it throws you around in terms of whether it's devastating one minute, extremely hopeful and exciting the next. And I don't know, I felt throughout all of this one, it stayed really sort of horribly realistic.

And there's a lot of humor in this one as well, I think, compared to either the other two books, which is, I'm as a comedian, always going to enjoy. Jordan, did you enjoy The Road Home? Yeah, I did. This book definitely had that.

I'm trying to think of a way to describe it that the richness of character I definitely agree with I agree with pretty much everything Jeff said um I I I think it's really important to have a book that it's easy I think for especially someone who lives in London or kind of when there's this kind of idea of multiculturalism or there's this there's this kind of um belief that it's an accepting home but still I'd even find myself looking at a person and I haven't necessarily engaged with why they're there or like what they would have gone through to be in that space and having reading a story and I don't know how to I'm not so struggling with the words it it feels I know that's that's the that's the power of

storywriting but I added a massive dimension to I suppose my own privilege or just the fact that I'm I wouldn't necessarily engage do you know what I mean like I don't think I I'm definitely not someone who would actively ignore or not, you know, or not be welcoming or loving. But still, you know, there's that that's the beauty of storytelling is that is, you know, an added level of compassion and understanding. And yeah, the paradoxical nature of characters, man, like I think it's just there's something in a human spirit that's just drawn to that,

man. Like, when you get that darkness, you're like, part of you's like, wait, fuck, like, that's not cool. And another part of you's like, why do I understand it? Like why do I, why do I, yeah. Why does it resonate? I mean, I mean, yeah, for one particular thing, I don't necessarily say resonate, but like,

I'm not going to discuss that because that would also be a spoiler for people. Jordan's not here to get himself cancelled, come on. No, but, but the, you know, I have dreams of, you know, writing stories and the complexity of characters. it seems that that paradoxical experience is what draws people regardless, you know, even if you look at like hero films or Hollywood stuff, the characters that we, like, for example, you know, we seem to engage more with like the Joker or whatever, do I mean?

Like, because there's something in us that's like, we need to accept our own shadow personas. So the fact that in this book, you know, every, no one gets, gets kind of, yeah, no one gets a pass from, from having that part of themselves excavated is brilliant. Jesse, what did you make of the characters in this book? Well, I absolutely loved it too. And I, with Lev, I just felt he was so real. And what I love most is that he, there's no, he's so wounded from the second we start the book.

And grief is kind of insurmountable. And what, even though I actually found the book, incredibly depressing. And brutal. It's kind of unrelenting and how how things just, his luck just doesn't, it just doesn't go his way again and again and again. And I found that so hard to read because it's so far from my life

and just how epic it is to move and to relocate and to make that journey that he goes on is just, it's so brave. and I just found it so accurate of grief and how the woven in flashbacks of his wife Marina and he's never going to recover and I liked how realistic that is and even I'm not going to give anything away

but the ending is so so understated and it's not like okay we're going to have a happy ending now and everything's going to be fine and he's going to have you know it's just it's so real of how he's just he's got this what my favorite thing in it was his one big idea and how suddenly about you know halfway through no further on than halfway because i found the first half just so so bleak um but he then has a a moment where everything changes when he he starts to get a bit more hope and

he starts to think of his future um because in a way he's running away from his hope and his grief and he's kind of abandoned his five-year-old daughter, which I kind of found really difficult to deal with. Yeah. Yeah. That's complicated, isn't it? Yeah, but it's kind of grief does make you quite selfish in a way. And he then has this one big idea and suddenly his life changes. And I just love that because it's all you need to get by sometimes is just an idea that's going to get through and even if it doesn't work

or if it's too big and people say no it's too much money it's never going to happen it doesn't matter if you really really believe in yourself and that idea and I thought that was the most moving thing about this book that you can change your life by just trying and having an idea

and he's not so many times but he manages yeah he just managed is to save himself, which is just beautiful. I think it, yeah, it's absolutely. And I think that is the reason why I didn't, even at the end, I found it quite joyful. But I think it was because of exactly that

for the last sort of third of the book, you get this, you realize, the whole book feels like suddenly it's about, the whole story, sorry, feels like it's about, the sort of curative power of finding something to be excited about. Which, and it's so implausible. you know, the thing that he's excited about. But, and then also, I don't know,

there's a million different messages in there about the power of working for something. How rewarding it feels to have something you've earned. Like this is, and about sort of sensitivities and pride and, oh. I think it's so true that in life, some people just get more luck than others. Yeah, yeah. Some people are given one bad thing after the next bad thing

and it's not their fault. But then also that that luck isn't necessarily relative to peace either. Yeah. Yeah, because Lydia, who I think is given the alternative lucky route of coming to this country and just landing on her feet and getting a lucky break and everything seems to be fine. She's not actually happy at the end. And it's just, it's amazing how I think, I don't think that he would have, Leve would have ever chosen to become a chef.

But what happens is he stumbles into this job. And I think the one great character, there's so many great characters in it, but I really think that even though he's not a massive character in the book, but GK Ash, the chef really is formative for Leve. He sees that Leve's got kind of work ethic and determination and gives them a chance.

And because of that, whole life has changed and I kind of love that idea that people who didn't know that they could do, they had a skill suddenly that they've got a future because somebody's just said, no, I think you're quite good at that actually. I think you could do that. And even though, you know, it doesn't work out with G.K. Ash, I think that that's a really important moment and quite act for a lot of people's careers. Sometimes you go in a completely different direction because somebody says, you should do that or you should go to art school or you should, you should thing or, you know, you should be a comedian.

You should be a comedian. You know, your whole life changed because somebody said, given you a little bit of luck, giving you a little bit of belief and encouragement. Well, I think that's a great and very hopeful note to end our discussion of the book on. Before we go on to our third and final book, here's journalist and broadcaster, Kirstie Lang, the chair of judges in 2008. Now, she's going to tell us why Rose. remains the road home was their winner.

It is in my view an incredibly important book. And I say that because it's about one of the biggest issues facing our society today, which is migration. We were all aware that the great move of Eastern Europeans had started and was a few years in. And we were all aware that every day in our lives, we were encountering, you know, somebody from Poland or wherever, you know, at our local coffee shop or, you know,

plumbers, builders, banks, social services, and asked ourselves the question, did we really know what it meant for them to leave everything behind, to arrive in this alien culture, barely speaking language, not understanding the social moors? And what's fantastic about this book

is it's a great act of empathy because it takes us inside Lev's head. This podcast is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish cream. Baileys is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hand of more people. Baileys is a perfect adult treat, whether in coffee, over ice cream or paired with your favourite book. Official announcement, sunshine is coming our way.

Celebrate the changing seasons and the sweet taste of spring with a Baileys on Ice alongside your favourite shortlisted book. or if you'd prefer a vegan treat, try Bailey's almond for the delicate taste of almond with a blend of real vanilla. Our third and final book for today's episode of Reading Women is Belcanto by Anne Patchett. Now, this won the prize in 2002, and unlike the previous two books you've been talking about,

it's not set in the UK. It is in an anonymous South American country where a political kidnapping goes very, very wrong. Now, Jordan, I think he said you would kindly provide a synopsis of this book for us. Yes. So a Japanese diplomat is basically hosting a party at his house and

and he kind of invites his favourite singer, opera singer to be delivering the entertainment and at this party are like a whole host of important people from various nations

and it's very much kind of like a status thing, but also, you know, like a political thing. It's networking. And, but it's his birthday. But that's, anyway, I'll get into that. But anyway, it's his birthday. And at the same time, because of who was supposed to be at this party, there is a terrorist invasion.

And the whole party is held hostage. But actually, the person they arrived to take isn't there. And so you have this whole book of this kind of bizarre standoff with a group of terrorists who haven't got what they want and are trying to figure out a way of getting it. A host of a whole party of people who don't really speak the same language or really know each other. And then this outside force being the police and a hilarious negotiator who, who had, yeah, just got this standoff, basically. And it's, but the book, for me, is, it's kind of not really anything to do with that.

But it is, but that is the premise of the, of the book. I don't, I don't say the end in that, no? No, no, don't spoil it. Okay. It's such a fine line to walk between enticing people to read the books. Yeah. And spoiling them so they don't want to read it. So, we're doing a good job so far.

Yeah, well, it's, it's, it's, yeah, for me, this was my favorite book. And I wonder why now. The way you introed it, I was like, do I like this because it's not to do with London? Am I, like, triggered by my home? I don't know. I felt maybe I felt more of a sense of escapism being that it was so kind of far removed. But it is, it's just, there's something about having a kind of chorus of people in one space.

It's that, and in the writing, Anne Patchett, she's able to. to use a situation that's essentially static to be able to investigate like the fluidity of people's lives and that like just had me hooked and the way that like a tiny thing could happen within this this standoff a tiny part of a negotiation or or something to do with food or something to do with an injury and from that one tiny thing you're able to find out more about the lives of the people around, which, I don't know. I think for me, that that just totally drew me in. And, and yeah, it was, it was, it seemed to just constantly talk about love and also the power of music, by the way, which was, which was this kind of like, omnipresent force throughout the whole

book is the power of this opera singer and like just what she could do with her ability to perform. I thought that was yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to lie, after I read this book, I looked up the opera songs that I mentioned, thinking that I was going to be magically transported. But actually, it turns out that the way

that Anne Patrick writes about opera, I actually found more enjoyable than the opera itself. Yeah, I mean, I haven't listened to any opera since. I was happy to read the book. That stuff about the power of music in this one, and the link that that gives to nationhood as well. or it all actually a kind of global

you know, acknowledgement of that music it was all around the world that people were moved even when they didn't understand the language of that. I felt like that mirrored a bit in the relationship that some people had towards food and eating in the road home actually. Music and yeah, I see music in Belcanton and food in that one seemed to be this like,

oh, this very emotional, very universal kind of leveler or bring a togetherer or also way of connecting to where you're from and yourself. I mean, that's one of the things I miss most about lockdown, going out and eating with friends, going out to a gig or listening to live music. Yeah, collective experience of that stuff in a genuine sense. In fact, this book, I was overwhelmingly grateful

I'd already read when lockdown started. I think this is a group of people kind of trapped but who without spoiling kind of, I don't know, some of them start really enjoying it. I'm thinking, oh God, I'm so glad I didn't read that at a time ride, struggling with being physically not allowed out. Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating this one. I've heard stories like that, though. I have heard stories of like, yeah, of people being brought together in that eventuality that you would never have expected. Absolutely, yeah.

Because like there's, I think, you know, going back to talking about the road home and home fire, I suppose, as well, is that the, that an underlying thing that ties everybody together in the entire world is grief. No one is exempt from grief. And it is a language that, that crosses every border. And I think like, especially when it's, when it's concentrated like that, I think, you know, it can be quite powerful. I know, I know it is up in the air as to whether or not it seems realistic. But, but. I think it can be more powerful than we maybe give a point. Jesse, what did you think about Belcounter? Do you think it was necessarily realistic? Well, the other thing that I think ties us all together is want and our own kind of personal desire. And I think we all can't help sometimes wanting things that, so for instance, the president who never makes an appearance in the novel,

he and the terrorists invade the party because they want to capture him. I just found it so great. He stayed at home to watch an episode of his favourite. I know. That idea and that that being the reason for the whole book, I thought was just amazing. And the concept of it and the, it's so filmic. And I know there has been a film paper,

you know, I think it was beautifully written. There's a film about it. There's a film from it. It's a film apparently. I think Julianne Moore is in it. No. No. I felt the whole thing felt very filmic.

I'm not surprised. I think I like the idea of the film more than I did reading the book and I'm just not more fancy language and as I said before I really need to focus on one character at least for a little while and I felt it was almost like on each page there was four different points of view and I found that so dizzying so I couldn't connect with it at all

and I know that it was beautiful and the story is great and the characters would be brilliant, but I just found it really hard to follow through with. I find it really interesting that, like, having said that I found other ones difficult to process, I wonder what it is in my head that is easier to process. I feel like maybe, and I don't know that it's necessarily answers that question, but like I feel like this, why we're talking about being filming and stuff, I feel like it's quite visual.

And I don't know, it's a real testament to how beautifully, you know, it's written in that sense of the visuals, because you really felt like you could see it, and that you'd like to see it, whereas with some of the others, for example, for the road home, it wasn't as visual,

but it was so textural that you felt like you could smell him, couldn't you, in that? And there were bits of it that was so bleak that really went there, that you sort of read, I read, I read a road home and went, oh, I never want to see that.

Like, I don't want to see the film of that. It's like the road or, do you know what I mean? I loved the book, and I could already smell it and taste it and all of this stuff, whereas with Belcanto, it's like the whole experience was so,

It was so visual. It was like, oh, I'd like to actually. It'd be great. It'd be a great film. In a way, nothing much happens. They're in one house, they're sitting there. It becomes the descriptions and the detail is so important because there's not much story. I mean, obviously, there's it.

But I think that's probably why we feel like we need to see it. Because if you watch somebody sitting down and you see their thought, but reading it, it's a bit different. I found it slightly boring. I know, obviously it's beautiful and it's brilliant and I know that I'm wrong. but as I said everything's subjective. But saying that, no, that I find that that's what's interesting is like I remember as a, I love people watching. Like I love sitting at like cafes or like on buses or whatever and just like staring at people

and just I as a kid remember thinking like what is happening in that person's life. Like you know, obviously all the books provided that but more like a mass scale. Like I'd just be and and that for me that was actually what drew me in was the idea that these people are literally just sat down, but I'm like given, I'm just allowed to just slip into their mind. And another, another thing that I love about Anne Patrick's writing was, which I'm not sure was so done in the other books, was that at the moments of tragedy, she would almost always make it funny. Like, like, at a point where, at a point where you go like, oh, wow, that's actually

quite deep. Well, it was. I think it was funny on purpose. Like, even there's one person who, who, lots of people try and fail. and then this, like, you get this, at first, this sort of, like, amazing sense of this incredible young woman who works for them as part of their, like, house staff, who's just got the kind of groundedness to get out a needle and sew up this gaping wound. But all the while, you can't be too grossed out or too stressed or anxious or, like, into any of it, because all the while, he's been quite a disgusting perv. So you sort of half hope, you half hope she stabs him. It's like you don't, yeah, you don't, it doesn't let you get too far beneath the surface of anyone to care that much until until it sort of rolls on.

But maybe that's another side effect of there being just so many of them as well as how funny it is. I don't think it's sick, Jordan. I think she's, I think she's made that funny on purpose. Yeah, I think she's definitely made that funny on purpose. And the same thing with the accompanist. Yeah, she's got a great sense of humour. And yeah, I don't know. I do, I think the ending is probably contentious.

I don't know how other, but like, but, but I am also fascinated with the concept of like, um, of like, uh, objectivity being transformed by just being around people the same time. Like I've always, I've had conversations in the past of my friends about like, could you essentially fall in love with anyone if you spent enough time with them? Like, yeah, but it's a weird thing to say, isn't it? Because you think, no, you meet someone, you like all these things about them and whatever else. but there's this kind of like basis, like human basis beneath everything that you eventually will get to. Like even if you see someone and you think, I don't find them attractive, I don't like what they do, there's going to be, I don't know.

I don't have an answer. I mean, I feel like lockdown is a perfect experiment for that, you know, will loads of people come out having fallen in love with their housemates. Yeah. Well, I don't know about falling in love, but other stuff's going to have happened, isn't it? Well, I think on that note, we are going to ask our final judge for today's reading women episode to explain why, this book won the Women's Prize. So this is Sue McGregor, the chair of judges on Belcanto by Anne Patchett. She tells us why it won in 2002. Well, I think she's brought off a very difficult thing,

which is to write about a very enclosed world, which is surrounded by the harsh reality of the army and the police outside because it's a story of a siege, a kidnapping and a siege and hostages. She's brought off this enormously cleverly because the story within, the enclosed world is enormously gentle and it's full of love and good music and friendship. And you are so wrapped up with these people, this extraordinary, I suppose, conglomeration of people who are part of this siege that you can't wait to turn the next page. I think what permeates the book more is a wonderful sense of curiously in the circumstances,

and that's why I think the book is so wonderful, of peace, of inevitability, of the power of love as well as the power of music. I found it totally gripping and it was in a field that year 2002 where there were some very, very strong contenders. So finally, we have reached, I guess, the end of this podcast episode, but I have one last question left for you guys. These books were published in 2002, 2008 and 2018. So how do you think they sit in their current context now?

Do you still feel relevant today or do you feel like you can tell that these were written some years ago? I feel like with Belcanto, it could have been written. It's kind of timeless. At home fire, I feel like it's very modern, very now. And with the road home, that probably is one that I feel like was written a while ago.

But it's still, I think that will keep coming up to be important and valid. And yeah, I feel like that's probably the only one that's not, I could tell, wasn't written this year or last year. Did any of the books kind of change your opinion or perspective on anything? Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Definitely. Well, the road home, I think, more than, I don't know if it changed my perspective, but like it, you know, it's just a reality check, I think. Mm-hmm. Whereas I think I was engaged more. with the realities of the other. I don't know how to explain that, yeah.

And of course, of course, Homefire, it's just very real. It's just like incredibly real and totally of the time. It's something that, you know, yeah. I think Homefire for me, I don't know about changed perspective, but it felt like a gift to get the perspective of a family in the belly of terrorism, basically, because it's up until reading that, you've only ever seen it from either the point of view of, you know, news about actual stuff.

Yeah. Or, um, or, um, uh, mocking. Like, um, you know, what's the, there's an Armando Nucci film, isn't it? Four Lions. It's brilliant, very funny. But, you know, a total satire. So it, I don't know. I felt sort of grateful for that point of view on it all.

And I felt like it was really, it felt very important for that. But like, yeah, I agree. I think the road home and home fire have the most potential to sort of begin to feel dated in a shifting world. But certainly perhaps a post-Brexit world in terms of road home. But yeah, I thought all three of them were great. What about you, Jessie? Well, I think the road home and home fire made me realise that all of the characters that aren't striving, perhaps. happiness. They're just trying to get by and trying to adapt to their situation and their new

normal. And I think that was quite inspiring for me. I think because usually the books I read are about, they usually have some kind of happy ending or the characters that some kind of, something that happens that kind of solves things. And what was nice about these books is that they didn't have a clear ending and a clear good ending, but they were still, the characters were just trying their best. And I really, really related to that and enjoyed that and was kind of felt privileged to read them. And also reminded me of my, my privilege. And I just felt so, so sorry for these characters. Yeah. Which book do you think will stay with you the longest? Well, even though Homefire was my favourite, I think probably the road home, I just think, led.

story was so sad and I just I feel like I know him and I yeah I think he'll that character will stay with me for the longest I think what about you Jess and Jordan um I think the same I think um oh as much as I felt like Homefire was the most uh kind of original of the three in terms of types of book that I'd read or all the perspectives that it was from compared to any other thing that I'd read. I do think it's Lev in the road home and I didn't finish saying it earlier, but the bit that I remembered from the book from having read it, you know, a decade ago was when he first arrives in London into Trafalgar Square and remember getting this real, when I read it a decade ago,

I'd not long moved to London to go to university from a tiny village in Dorset. And I remember walking on my own from my halls in Holborn into Trafalgar Square and being like, fucking out. And I remember thinking, my God, imagine that. Imagine that. But you've just left your home and your family and your kid and your everything. And you're penniless. And I don't know, again, a real sort of privilege check.

But I don't know. I won't ever forget that first bit where he walks in Trafalgar Square and how she describes it and stuff there. It's an incredibly powerful scene. What about you, Jordan? Which book do you think will stay with you for the longest? I don't know. I just feel like a dickhead. It'd be boring if we all agreed.

I know, I know, but it's this something, I just, I'm, I need to do some soul searching after this. I feel I'm going to sit down in journal. I feel, I feel there's definitely something in me that like I have, I've, I feel like I've interacted with, with the stories that, like, various degrees of those stories, like, on a personal level. And, like, and just, I suppose, politically, um, in regards to. to, I don't know, just various protests and whatever else. So like I, I, I, I definitely, those stories will stay with me and Leather's a character 100%. Homefire in its accuracy 100%.

But it, I don't know, it hurts. I just, like, it hurts. And I think, I think for me to want to escape, like, to actually kind of fall into something else, I think that maybe that's what it is. Maybe there's a selfish part of me that, uh, truly wants to escape. with a book. And I think Belcanto obviously provided me that because it was almost a little bit surreal. And, um, and there are interactions between characters in Belcanto. Just the words. This is what I'm saying to say. Just, just, just, they said to each other that will stay with me.

Just because it's just a, it's a discussion of love and, you know, well, I mean, as I always say on the podcast, it's totally subjective and people read for so many different reasons. You know, some people read to see a new perspective, some people read to escape, some people read to find out more. I mean, it's so broad and varied. I mean, I think that's why literature's great, isn't it? I would like to thank all of you for coming onto the show because let's face it, the new normal means that recording stuff, a straightforward panel like this, would be quite complicated. So thank you so much for putting up with all the tech and, you know, joining me and reading all the books as well. I hope you enjoyed it.

Thanks for having me. I'm Zing Singh and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast, brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Now you definitely want to head over to our website to find out more about the Reading Women Challenge. Get exclusive video and audio content and check out the hashtag Reading Women on Instagram and Twitter to join in the conversation around the 24 brilliant past winners of the Women's Prize for Fiction. Now you can get hold of all the books you've talked about in today's episode and all of the Women's Prize winning. novels we've discussed so far on the podcast by going to waterstones.com. We even have a very special discount for you. You can enter the code WPF25 at checkout to get 25% off each of the winning books. Please subscribe and don't forget to rate and review this podcast. It really helps spread the word

about all the female talent you've heard about today. Thank you very much for listening and see you next time.