Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S2 Ep9: #ReadingWomen: Changing Worlds

Episode Date: May 27, 2020

In this episode Zing Tsjeng is joined by Rhiannon Cosslett - a columnist, feature writer and editor for the Guardian and Liv Purvis - author of the Insecure Girl's Handbook. The theme of today's #ReadingWomen book club is changing worlds. To look at that subject in more detail, we’re jumping into the winners from 2000 - When I Lived in Modern Times by Linda Grant, the 2004 winner, Small Island by Andrea Levy and The Lacuna by Barbara Kingsolver which won in 2010. Every fortnight, join Zing Tsjeng, editor at VICE, and inspirational guests, including Dolly Alderton, Stanley Tucci, Liv Little and Scarlett Curtis as they celebrate the best fiction written by women. They'll discuss the diverse back-catalogue of Women’s Prize-winning books spanning a generation, explore the life-changing books that sit on other women’s bookshelves and talk about what the future holds for women writing today. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and this series will also take you behind the scenes throughout 2020 as we explore the history of the Prize in its 25th year and gain unique access to the shortlisted authors and the 2020 Prize winner. Sit back and enjoy. This podcast is produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve. Today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit Harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Zing Singh, your host for Season 2 of the Women's Prize podcast, coming to you every fortnight throughout 2020, our year of reading women.

From Zadie Smith's White Teeth to Naomi Alderman's The Power, we're spotlighting all 24 Women's Prize-winning books during this podcast series, with eight book club episodes in which our guests discuss three of the brilliant winning novels from past years. And we want you to join the conversation. Go to hashtag Reading Women on Twitter and Instagram to share your thoughts as you read along and head to the Women's Prize website at Wemenspriceforfiction.co.uk to learn all about the 24 books, plus lots more to set you off on your reading journey. Welcome back for another episode of Reading Women.

We are still on a coronavirus lockdown and recording this episode virtually so safely. So please excuse any minor sound hiccups with the quality of audio. And I am joined today by some wonderful guests. First up is Rian Nkosler, a columnist, feature writer and editor for The Guardian newspaper, and Liv Purvis, the author of the Insecure Girls Handbook, Liv and Riannan, welcome to the podcast. Hi. Hi, thank you for having me. Well, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for reading the books as well.

I mean, how did you find reading these three books, Rianen? It was really great to revisit Small Island, particularly, because I read it as a teenager. But also, I think, you know, in lockdown, it's been quite hard to constantly. concentrate, hasn't it? So it was quite nice to escape into another time and place I found with all the books, actually. How did you find these books live? Yeah, I agree. When I read the lacuna, I felt like it took me a while to get into, but once I was in, I was so, like, gobbled up by it, and it provided such a lovely thing to come back to each day, where I'd normally perhaps be scrolling on social media in the bath or something. It was nice to just, yeah, like you say, Jan, and

like, completely escape. I think that's one thing that a lot of people in the book club have talked about where it turns out if you are told to read three books, you will read them. And it's actually nice to have that commandment because someone's actually forcing you to do it. And in actually getting forced, you actually do read the books and you do end up really enjoying them. That's definitely been my experience at least. Yeah, and I feel as well, because I was looking out for certain things, I ended up doing it, like, doing what I did when I was at school and kind of like folding pages and underlining things. And it's been such a long time since I've done that and kind of fallen so deeply in with a book, which was really refreshing, especially at the moment where you kind of feel like your mind's often somewhere half elsewhere. So it's nice to feel really infested and almost looking out for certain kind of moments in those pages too.

Well, perfect, because I want to hear which bits of the books you've underlined and dogged. Because I always find it really interesting to see which parts of the novel people are willing to vandalize their book for. speaks a lot about which bits move to you. Well, today's book club theme is Changing Worlds. So to look at that subject in more detail, we have chosen winners from 2008 when I lived in Modern Times by Linda Grant, the 2004 winner Small Island by Andrea Levy, and the Lacuna by Barbara Kingsolver, which won in 2010. So with that in mind, do you kind of feel like the Changing Worlds theme applies to all three books? How much do you think it kind of showed up in the various books that you read? I think all of the novels are sort of concerned with the broad sweep of history and so it absolutely does apply. You know, although the characters themselves

are kind of just a few people in one place, in one time, they sort of get caught up in the events of history or the events of history affect them. And, you know, I found that quite moving. in some of the cases as well. I completely agree and I think it was quite interesting, especially with Small Island revisiting it, because I read it as well as a teenager at GCSE,

and I think revisiting it as an adult, especially in the time we're growing up in, it was quite interesting to see if there were elements and there were obviously, like, sadly, elements that still felt reflective of today's world, which was really interesting as well. I think that's what I found with the, three historical novels, right? Because I don't know about you guys, but I don't actually read that many

historical books, or at least books that are based in kind of real historical moments. And it's always that kind of fine line where you want the author to be imaginative and bring to life that period. But at the same time, you're so aware that these moments are real and that the historical figures, well, some of them feature people who are very much real life people. You want it to be historically accurate as well. So how do you think that these three books kind of walk the line between historical accuracy and being creative and imaginative enough to capture you? I thought the lacuna did that really well. I was almost kind of mind blown because even at the beginning it says a lot of the happenings are based on real life, but obviously the character

Harrison Shepard is fictional. And it was, I kind of completely forgot that he was a fictional character. and then when I came back to it, it's almost like when you watch a really good film that you end up Googling, like, all the characters and, like, actresses and stuff. And I ended up, like, Googling Frida Kahlo and Lev Trotsky, and then I was just like, hang on, why is Harrison Shepherd not in these pictures?

And it was done so well that I kind of forgot that these two fictional and real worlds collided anyway. Yeah, I agree. I mean, like you, I don't read much historical fiction at all. It's not generally, you know, the kind of book that I pick up first and foremost. But I did, you know, I have always been fascinated by women artists and particularly Frida Carlo. And despite having read quite a lot about her and her life, I found the approach of the lacuna to her to be really, she really came alive in it, I felt. and that even the things that I maybe felt weren't reflective of who she really was as a person

from what I'd read in terms of nonfiction. I felt she still was utterly convincing as a character herself within the realms of the novel. And I think that's quite an achievement. Small Island obviously takes a different approach, but I found the characters no less vivid. and you could tell that she'd, Andrea Levy had absolutely meticulously researched the period that she was writing about, you know, having had personal experience of her parents' stories as well. And I think it's wearing that research with a light touch, isn't it? You don't want the book to feel as though it's trumpeting the amount of historical underpinning that it has.

and I felt that those books achieved that very much so. Well, we'll talk about Small Island and the Lecuna in a second, but I'd like to start with the first book in this trilogy, which is When I lived in Modern Times by Linda Grant. So this is the first book exploring the theme of changing worlds, and it won a prize 20 years ago in 2000. And it follows the adventures of our heroine Evelyn Sepp, who is a hairdresser from Soho,

who at the tender age of 20, leaves London for Palestine to eventually become an unwitting spy for the underground. Now, what did both of you make of this book? I've never really read something that takes place in this particular historical period of the years leading up to the formation of Israel. What did you two make of it? I thought it was really interesting. It taught me a lot in terms of, as you say,

the formation of Israel and the background to that. And also, again, I felt like it had a really vivid sense of place. And I, you know, having not read many novels that were set in Tel Aviv or in Israel, I found that a really great experience, you know, to be to be embedded in a new country and in a new place like that. I felt in terms of the character, she was perhaps the least convincing to me. But I found, I found the, certainly found the history and the politics very interesting. Yeah, I completely agree. And I think I found, yeah, although I didn't find her the most kind of, yeah, convincing, like you said, I found it was so interesting kind of following along with her kind of discovery of identity

through all the different situations from being in London and kind of grappling with it to then being in the kibbutz and just not knowing where kind of there's that anonymous feel that people experience to then kind of the reinvention of herself. and the different people she meets. I did find that really interesting, especially when she became a hairdresser at the end in Tel Aviv and her experiences with her British clients and the things that they would say. So I kind of felt that mirrored elements of small island. But yeah, and I find it really, really interesting

and definitely kind of an education in many respects as well. What did you make of the character of Evelyn? Because, you know, she's 20 in the book, which is very, very young. and like you say, she does go through a bit of a reinvention of herself. Do you think she came across as a really believable 20 year old, at least for that time and period? I think in some ways, yeah, I mean, she was certainly braver than I was at 20. But then I suppose she was probably like, in many ways, I think she's had to grapple with identity more

and all these different situations she's been faced with, which I suppose puts you in those situations. And one thing that she speaks about being brought up. on politics, which I kind of think that is really reflective because I think her whole life and existence is centred around politics. So she's constantly having to grapple with that feeling of identity as well. And what did you make of the description of Palestine and Tel Aviv? I don't know about you, but reading stories now that are set anywhere but the UK during lockdown, almost feels a bit like having a holiday in your brain. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. Yeah, I thought the city was drawn really well actually. I thought it was one of the strengths of the novel. It had a very strong sense of place, didn't it?

Tel Aviv was so colourful as well. Like, I felt really, like, I felt really, when she was there, I felt really kind of like almost I was there as when I could really visually imagine. You could almost feel it, like the warmth of it. And I just think the way it was described was so beautiful and vivid. And what about the depiction of it being set in the 40s? Because I don't know how many kind of period novels you read. But I always find sometimes with really, really well done novels like this one, you kind of get a sense of like history almost and place and time because it still feels contemporary. But at the same time, you're very much reading it. And you're aware of the fact that it's set, I mean now, almost like a century ago.

Yeah, I mean, that just blows the mind that it's. It's almost a century ago, doesn't it? I think, I don't know, this book is such a product of its politics and of its history that it felt very strongly rooted in its time to me, perhaps more so than the other two, actually, which I don't know how to explain, I suppose. the other two almost seemed like more modern novels to me, I guess, even though they were obviously also set in the past. It's interesting because this is the oldest book that we've got on the list that we're discussing today.

So I'm wondering if maybe that's the product of the fact that it was written and published in 2000, which to be honest, feels like a century ago to me. Yeah, and I think maybe also in terms of structure, I think the, you know, the lacuna is a much more experimental structure in terms of how it's been constructed. And, you know, the lacuna of the title is obviously implicit in the structure as well, which is one of the things that I loved about it. And I think equally with Small Island with all the different voices, whilst the Linda Grant is much more of a realist novel in the traditional type, I think. No, I think that's definitely true. I think what's interesting with doing these kind of reading women episodes is that when you look at books chronologically, you start seeing that authors start being very much more playful and radical when it comes to whose voices are talking and, you know, how many voices get to be in a book.

Yeah, and I think publishing is a lot more, a lot more open to more experimental writing these days as well. certainly, you know, we have a flourishing indie press scene, for instance, where that's definitely the case. And we're seeing more and more books that kind of take risks like that. No, I think that's definitely very true. And that's something you see in the selections for the women's prize winners as time goes on as well. Now, before we move on to the next book, I think it'll be great to hear from Polly Toinby, who's a guardian columnist, formerly the BBC Social Affairs editor.

and she was a chair of the judging panel from 2000. So she tells us a little bit about why I lived in modern times was picked that year as the winner. I think it's full of a complex irony. It's about seeing idealism and not quite being able to do it or the real world intruding all the time. And so it's not in a sense a political book. It's very much a book about growing up,

could be any time, any place, but just happens to be set in a place that's so extraordinary. extraordinarily interesting and beautifully described. It was a very, very tight run between Zadie Smith's white teeth, and they would absolutely neck a neck. And the judges had a terrible time deciding, and we fought forwards and backwards over a long time, and we would like to have had two prizes that year.

But since there was only one, we felt that the Linda Grant was more fascinating in the world. took us to and more of an eye-opener in a sense about something that's been very rarely written about certainly in English language literature. Remember, you can join in that discussion by using the hashtag Reading Women. Now, our second book is Small Island by Andrea Levy. This novel won the prize back in 2004. Liv, do you mind giving us a quick rundown of the story? Yes, of course. So the book is set in post-war Britain in 1948 And the story is told through the voices of four characters

So that's Hortense and Gilbert and then Queenie and Bernard And it tells the story of Hortense and Gilbert migrating from Jamaica And how they end up lodging with Queenie and Bernard And both of their all of their experiences In this unusual period of bleakness and also discovery How did you feel about reading the book again? Because did both of you do this book at school? Yes. I didn't do it at school, but my mum had it on her shelf and I read it while I was a teenager. Right. So what did the experience of rereading it as an adult compared to being a teenager?

Oh, I just felt like I understood it so much more both the, you know, sexual relationships and dynamics now that I'm an adult, but also I think in the political climate we're in, how much it still resonates and how current it still is. And I found it, I think, I remember finding it moving at the time, but I found it particularly moving in light of everything that's happened with Windrush in the last couple of years and the last chapter particularly. I don't know if you agree, Liv, but I just, you know, I was in tears reading it. I just found it so moving. No, I completely agree.

I think I didn't, I think when I read it as a teenager, I think because I was doing it at a GCSE level, I think no matter what book you're reading can be as amazing as small island, but I think when you're given it at school, sometimes there's that reluctance to really get involved with it because I kind of like, okay, I have to read it and there's that obligation.

And although, like, I did reread it for this, I just loved it. And like you say, Riannon, I felt like it felt really, in some ways, really reflective of today's society, which is like mad. But also it was just really, really interesting kind of revisiting the characters. And I read an interview with Andrea Levy, and she was saying that it was quite interesting with Bernard.

She didn't want him to come across as evil, but just really misguided and bigoted. And I thought that was quite an interesting take, because I read it and I just felt really angry. But it was just, it was really refreshing going back to it. And like you say, the last chapter was really moving. But it just, it was so nice because, yeah, like you say, you have such a bigger understanding of it.

And obviously in the 10 years since I read it as a teenager to now, I have such a clear understanding of Windrush and even of all of the topics that come up with, that's racism or sexual, like, relationship relations and all of these things feel so much more like you can really understand what each character is talking about and you kind of sympathise like even great even more greatly I think I think it's almost so sad that the things that are discussed in small island are still such a prevalent issue today yeah yeah that's I think

that's why I found so sad about it and I felt like as a novel this time I read it as as as highly political, but it was highly political without being didactic. You know, it wasn't whacking you around the head and saying, look at the contribution, this generation made to the war effort and look at how this country has thanked them or not thanked them. It showed that without you feeling as though you were being lectured. And it was, I just felt as a novelist, it's a phenomenal achievement to be able to to do that. Yeah, it was quite shocking. And I remember I wrote down one line because I read it and it was

just as we went into lockdown. And it's something Queenie says and she says something like that National Health Service pulling them in about more people going to work for the national health from overseas. And I was just like, it's the same things people are saying now, which is shocking because in that vast period of time between then and now, we're having the same conversations that are popping up and it just it's quite alarming really because you don't expect to almost resonate that much and you you hope that you pick it up and read it and think it felt more alien and it didn't yeah I know which is in one ways you know a triumph of the author because she wrote this back in 2004 but in other ways it's a really sad condemnation of where we are as a society absolutely I mean

like I said if you if you look at how mistreated the windrust generation have been, you know, and many of them who work for the NHS and, you know, have been dubbed low-skill workers by the government until this crisis began. It's just, I think it gives you the perspective of what it must have been like as well to come to a new place and to just face so much prejudice and racism from the population. And nevertheless, to continue contributing to that society, to continue doing good. you know, in the face of much mistreatment and prejudice. And I think it's a book that everyone should read.

You know, I was glad to hear that it was on the school curriculum as long ago as when you're at school live. No offense, not saying you're really old. But like, you know, I hope that it still is on the curriculum because it has important lessons for us all, doesn't it? Do you think it's easier for people to engage with issues that, you know, Small Island raises like racism and immigration and xenophobia if it's kind of in a book rather than a straight news story?

I think when a novel is good, what a novel succeeds in doing is in teaching us something about human psychology and about transposing that onto fictional characters that seem real. and I think it can be difficult to glean the depths of human psychology from a news article, I guess, whilst when you've spent time in a novel and you've sat with the characters and you've been, you know, subject to their innermost thoughts and their feelings and their motivations, I think it's a very sorry person indeed who has difficulty empathising with that. Yeah, I was going to say the same.

I think it really, not that you should have to be with someone and understand someone fully to fully empathise with them, but I think when you've read a book like Small Island and you understand everything about someone from, you know, what brings them joy to make them upset to, like you say, their motivations, I think it really paints a real picture and can't, like, you'd hope can make anyone empathise with those things that perhaps if you just see flashing up on the news,

perhaps you don't get the full story. And it's, I think especially with the news, sometimes it can feel quite noisy and loud. And I think when you've sat with those characters for such a long time, it's, I don't know, yeah, it can really teach you something. Actually, one of the things I wonder sometimes is whether or not there could almost be a sequel to this

that takes into account, you know, issues like the right way. press monstering immigrants, you know, what happened with the windrush generation in real life. It's almost like you want these stories to continue being talked about, but through novels rather than, you know, through headlines because it makes people kind of more engaged with it and it makes people sit with these stories rather than just looking at them at the front of a newspaper and dismissing it. Oh yeah, definitely. I hope someone's working on it right now. I definitely thought that girl, woman, other by Bernadine Everisto,

was an amazing, like, phenomenal portrait of black British womanhood. And I'm sure there are, like, loads of younger novelists who are working on their own interpretations of what life is like as a person of colour in Britain today. And I'm really looking forward to reading them. And what about the characters? Did you have a favourite out of the characters and voices in the novel? It's tricky, isn't it, Leav?

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I really like Gilbert. I really like Gilbert. I think he's the one you warm to the most with Gilbert. But I had a soft spot for her tents as well because, you know, she kind of arrives as quite a terrible snob, really. Yeah, she does. And then by the end, she becomes, it's like she sees the light.

and she learns some kind of humility, I think, and you sort of follow her on that journey. And that's nice, you know, she has, she goes on a bit of a journey and comes out a better person, I think. And you do sympathise with her as well, of course. Yeah, no, she's, she's a really brilliant character. I think, yeah, like you say, I think Gilbert's probably the easiest to warm to and, like, probably the kind of, yeah, the warmest, the funniest and, And the kind of person you think, oh, you make a really great mate. Yeah. Whereas I think obviously with characters like Bernard, you're just kind of just, it's really hard to kind of sympathise with them in any way or really have that warmth that you get from someone like Gilbert.

No, I think having a character in your books that someone would be happy to call a mate is definitely a recommendation of a good book. Oh, yeah. Love Gilbert. Would follow him on Instagram. Yeah, 100%. This podcast is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish cream. Baileys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women,

celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bailey's is a perfect adult treat, whether in coffee, over ice cream, or paired with your favorite book. Official announcement, Sunshine is Coming Our Way. Celebrate the changing seasons and the sweet taste of spring with a baillies on ice alongside your favourite shortlisted book.

Or if you'd prefer a vegan treat, try Baileys Almand for the delicate taste of almond with a blend of real vanilla. Well, our final book for today's episode of Reading Women is The Lacuna by Barbara Kingsover. So out of our three books, this was the most recent winner, it won the prize in 2010.

Rian, would you mind giving our listeners a quick summary of the book? Sure. So the lacuna is set in Mexico in 1935 and it's about, well, it starts off being about a young boy called Harrison Shepard, who eventually grows up to become a famous author. And it's told in a kind of fragmented style slightly in that we first come to him through his diaries. And then it's interrupted by a note from an archivist. And then, you know, we get a little bit more of the story, but there are gaps.

in the story, kind of lacunae, as it were. And you're sort of trying to patch together this boy's life. And he ends up spending time in the house of Diego Rivera and his now much more famous wife, but then relatively unknown, the artist Frida Carlo. And it chronicles their involvement with the exiled Bolshevik leader Lev Trotsky. So these are real historical characters that he's observing, but he himself is a fictional character. And as Liv said earlier, it's a very, very clever blend of the two.

What did you make of this book? Because it's quite, you know, like you say, it covers a lot of historical ground. And at the same time, it's done in quite a radical way. So you're never quite sure what scraps of information you're being fed and who exactly has the kind of power over what's being presented. Yeah, and I found that quite groundbreaking as a way of telling the story because, you know, as a reader, you're sort of wrong-footed all the time. And you don't know what to believe, you don't know what to trust, and it's sort of multi-layered in a way that kind of weirdly reminded me of Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights, even though they have nothing in common in terms of structure or subject matter. I felt that same kind of unreliable narrator stories retold by people who were there to other people. It had a similar kind of attitude to veracity, I felt, and an attitude to how you tell a story and how much you can trust the story that's being told.

And what did you make about the developments later on in a book where he gets hauled up before the House Committee on Un-American Activities? need to refer to that name because it's such a wordy mouthful and it sounds like something completely made up but it was real what did you make of that kind of development in the book? Towards the end I kind of felt like I mean one thing I really noticed was like the press treatment of him and again that felt like something kind of obviously how small island kind of feels reflective of parts of our society I felt like that had elements of like the right wing press where it was just so, kind of felt so almost exasperating where you're kind of reading it. And from everything you've read throughout the book, you're almost just like, what?

This literally makes no sense. And they have a complete grip over everything that he does and says. And even to the point where in the novels he's writing, it's the way he's trying to tell them and the way it's questioned by the people around him. And one thing that was said, which I thought was really interesting, I did try and write this down, was about cutting their anchors to the past to make the writing more comfortable for the audience.

And I thought that was really interesting, especially because of how I think, like we say with the media, I think people find it quite confronting sometimes be made aware of what's going on. And it was something that Violet Brown said to him about sometimes they need connections to the past to kind of create that empathy.

and I was just like, yes, yes, Viola. You go. And I think also, you know, the hearing is told through a transcript and that really kind of, you know, again, a different form. You know, you've got diaries, you've got notebooks, you've got articles, you've got letters, you've got transcripts. And that really served to kind of highlight, I guess it was kind of Kafkaesque, wasn't it? Just the sheer absurdity of the bureaucracy and the allegations and the politics of it all.

really came across and the sort of gulf between who this man was and what we saw of him as readers and how he was being portrayed. I think especially the fact that there are so many different forms this novel takes and the way it presents information to us. To me it kind of was an argument for who's got the monopoly on the truth really. Like we think that we have an idea of this man but everybody writing up these sources has their own kind of agenda, especially when you get to the transcript, for instance. So at the same time, I was kind of left by the end of the book thinking, do I know this man any better than, you know, anybody else in this book or a reader who's also reading this book? What did you guys think? Did you think that by the end of it, you had a pretty clear idea of the protagonist?

It's sort of yes and no. I think there are obviously elements about him that are enigmatic and always will be because of the missing pieces in the story. but without wanting to spoil the ending, I think as well, we're left with a question mark, aren't we? And I think that reflects how we feel about the character too. Not only what, we don't actually end up knowing

what happened to him, but we also don't really feel as though we could get a true handle on who he was and what his motivations were. Did you like him? by the end of it, did you find him a likable character? I did, I think.

I felt like, I don't know, I found him a fascinating character. Like, sometimes I felt he was quite cold, but I did feel like, I don't know, I enjoy, like, even at the beginning, I found the book on, like, quite hard to get into. But then towards the middle and the end, you appreciate why there's so much about him and those diary, and it's almost like it builds towards this character, which you do kind of really sympathise with and you feel like he just wants to, well, potentially just wants to live quite a modest life writing. And I felt like I sympathise with him

and even down to things like his sexuality and like his relationships with people that were constantly scrutinised. And I found it quite interesting because there's, yeah, like question marks over things like that over his relationships. And yeah, like you say, I'm like just very enigmatic, which was kind of pulls you in, but also kind of makes you feel like he's a bit cold because you're like,

I don't really kind of ever get to fully know you. I think in a way that is symbolic of how a lot of people who are gay or lesbian in the 20th century felt like they had to conduct their lives. You know, they had private lives and they had public lives. And I felt that there was a real sadness in how that was. portrayed that he wasn't able to fully be himself and was kind of misjudged again and again. I hadn't really thought about whether I liked him or not because I never really think about characters in terms of likability, but I certainly empathised with him and I felt the

passages where he was a child, a bit like you live, I found it hard to get into it first. And I think that was because I found the writing as a child the least convincing. I didn't fully believe that it was the writing of a child. Whilst when he'd grown up, I found that the character became a lot more convincing and sort of came alive to me, particularly, you know, when he starts working in Diego and Frida's house. It's interesting because I feel like that moment is when the novel could have lost. its authenticity because those two are such gigantic figures in art. Well, Frida, especially now,

that, you know, if there's a misstep, it could all come crashing down and you start questioning the believability of the novel. Do you even, you know, think that this is a realistic portrayal of Frida and Diego, you know, readers would come to this novel with all these preconceived ideas of who these people are. So what did you make of the inclusion of really big historical figures into the lacuna? Did you think it was? a good idea? Do you think it worked really well? I think we've got to bear in mind that it's only since the 1980s that people have really known much about Frida Carlo at all. And really only in the last five years since people

started putting her face on cushions and things. Yeah. And so much. But, you know, she's become kind of commercialized and co-opted by the mainstream. You know, I mean, I think you'll both remember when Theresa May wore a bracelet that had her face on. And it's like, yeah. This is a woman who had an affair with Trotsky and a conservative prime minister is wearing a bracelet with her face on. Like, the mind boggles. So I think in a way she gets away with it because most of the people reading the book wouldn't have known that much about the day-to-day lives of Frieda and Diego in Mexico in the 1930s. As someone who does know quite a lot about it, because I've read her letters and things and, you know, I studied art history as well.

I actually found that it was pretty convincing. I felt it portrayed their relationship, you know, very well in terms of, you know, how much he worked and the various affairs and the dynamics that they had. I don't know. What did you think, Liv? Yeah, see, I was going to say, like, I don't know much about her at all, like, beyond surface level. So it's really interesting to your perspective, which is obviously someone who does know a lot about them. But I found it really convincing, again, based on very.

very little external knowledge. But I felt like you really got a feel for their relationship and their line of living situation. And even like her character and the way she softens and like her exterior, I just thought it was so beautifully communicated. And the thing is, because I don't really know much about her, like, or her personality, it was really interesting to see a site, like to perhaps get an understanding of what she was like as a person.

and her personality and the way she communicated with other characters. And obviously, there's obviously, like, lots of room for, you know, discussion about how accurate that is. But I think as someone who didn't know a lot, it's nice hearing from you that it was relatively accurate and convincing. I mean, I think you can forgive the old historical inaccuracy, can't you? Yeah. Like, the character herself is convincing.

And the way, I think what's great about the way she is in the novel is, is, is, is, the way she communicates, like you said, her dialogue, I thought, reflected what I've read of the woman herself quite well. And you've got a sense of that kind of quite sparky, difficult personality and passionate as well, you know. You really got that. And I loved like, even when I was reading it, like, I was reading it almost in an accent because of the way it was like written. And I feel like I just was completely engrossed. and the narrative between her and Harrison and just it felt really like, yeah, like electric and like you say, like punchy and sparky.

And I just think it's always great to read about a disabled character who isn't defined by their disability as well, you know, because that's such an easy trap it seems to be for not very good writers to fall into. And I think, you know, this writer did not fall into that trap, which was great. And to bring it back to the theme of changing worlds, what did you think of the world that's depicted in the lacuna? Do you think it's one that is kind of foreign to us now?

Or do you think there's still elements of it that we still see today? I thought the depiction of the breakup of the protest camp in Washington, D.C. I found that very evocative. And obviously the police violence brought to, mind police violence, which continues in America today, in quite a real way, I thought. And so, so yeah, I mean, I think the novel, it's set in a time and a place, but it has continued resonance, doesn't it? Well, I think that kind of concludes the section on the Lacuna, which is, you know, a great book. And I think definitely deserves a

second read. And here is our final judge for today's reading women episode. This is writer and TV producer Daisy Goodwin, the chair of judges from 2010 on why Barbara King Silver's The Lacuna was crowned the winner. There are so many genres of historical novels, you know, Tudor historical novel. You know, there are places and what's so brilliant about this is that it takes things that you never would expect to find an historical novel in a way. You know, the combination of the Huac committee and Frida Carlo and Diego and. Leon Trotsky and one novel makes it very exciting, very rich. And it's a very sly novel.

There are lots of jokes in it. There's a really fantastic sexual tension at the heart of it in the Mexico place, which I thought was just brilliant. I mean, I loved all of that. And I thought it was, she really unpacked that triangle in a way that I found utterly compelling. I mean, we had a really wonderful panel of judges. and we, I thought, had a very balanced shortlist. And obviously the two biggest guns were probably the Lacuna and Wolf Hall.

But I think there was a feeling around the room that when we went back to read all the books again, that the Lacuna was the one that really resonated for us all. And I think, you know, Wolf Hall is a fantastic novel and Hillary Mantell is a genius. But I think it's wonderful that we were able to give the prize to a novel that perhaps people wouldn't have come to. And now it's got, it has the attention that it deserves in this country.

I just wanted to wrap up the episode by asking you guys how you felt about the theme of changing worlds. Do you think there was one book that spoke to that theme more strongly? I think when I lived in modern times in an element, perhaps connected with that changing worlds theme really beautifully because of the idea of moving and becoming. what Evelyn is like a new Jew and this new kind of city and experience. So I feel like that perhaps connected on that level. But I feel like they all communicated it in different ways. And they all had that kind of overall like thread running through them, which was like a real longing for home and identity

and the way the world was changing as they were navigating it. What about you, Riannon? No, I agree. I mean, you know, all of these books are set against the broad sweep of history. So in that sense, they all encapsulate the theme of changing worlds. But I think also the characters are making journeys. You know, all of the characters have experience of migration. All of the protagonists, I should say, have experience of migration in this book. And I think, you know, insofar as migrations,

changes your world, your personal world. I think that small island best reflect that. But they're all great books by brilliant writers. Did any of them change your opinion or perspective on anything? Or did it kind of, you know, educate you in ways you hadn't expected? I'm always grateful to read more about Israeli-Palestinian politics because it's such a complex conflict, and I think you can never really know enough.

So I was grateful to Linda Grant for that. In terms of the other two, politically, they didn't change my mind at all, but I think, because I think, you know, the politics of them both were broadly aligned with my own, but I think they enriched my politics, and I think that's always great to have from a novel. No, I think in some cases they enraged me

in the fact that I couldn't believe that things hadn't changed at all. Yeah, I felt the same way. And I felt, you know, I felt the ending. You know, we live in such jingoistic times at the moment, and the Second World War has evoked constantly in this kind of pseudo-nationalistic way. way. And I just felt that the way Small Island ends on that Winston Churchill quote was just, it was a real gut punch, wasn't it? And I think made it made the point very, very well,

which is that we owe a huge debt to migrants who have come here and who have, you know, helped the people in this country and save their lives, you know, and that's something that couldn't be more relevant today. Especially now at a time of coronavirus. Exactly. Exactly. And I hope, I really hope, after all this is over, that people will look at, you know,

our so-called low-skilled workers with new eyes. It's funny to discuss this theme right now because in many ways it feels like we are living through a changing world. Yeah. Absolutely. And I don't think, I don't know about you guys, but I haven't really got my head around that yet, that we're living through history right now.

So perhaps there'll be historical novels. I'm sure there will be historical novels set in this time. Liv, what did you think about the books? Does any of them change your opinion or anything? Yeah, much like Riannon said, I feel like they were more an education than a kind of an opinion change, especially with Small Island and the lacuna, because like you say it very much aligned with the things I feel anyway.

But I feel like there were just things I took out of it that perhaps as well as the main themes of a changing world and identity. I felt like there were other things. I was like writing down and scribbling down, especially from the lacuna. There were a couple of quotes. I was like, that's brilliant. So I feel like there were lots of other small wisdoms in there,

just peppered throughout that I kept thinking, that's really beautiful and poignant. and it seems so secondary to the whole overall plot, but it still feels really profound. And there were lots of moments of that, which I thought was really beautiful, that, you know, a word just very much blended into this whole bigger narrative,

but equally stood alone, they were really poignant. Was there a book that you both remember? I feel like, I mean, I always have remembered Small Island, so I feel like that goes without saying, but I feel like the lacuna because I think it challenged me. And sometimes I feel with reading, I sometimes feel like I'm not great articulating things or my taste in novels or isn't like highbrow enough.

And I think it was something that I picked up and typically I perhaps might not have picked up just because I think I might felt like I wasn't qualified to read or not intelligent enough or it was too chunky or something completely ridiculous. But I really loved how it just stimulated me the whole way through. And it surprised me because I think at the beginning I was quite slow to get into it. But maybe that was probably more me being like, oh, no, I don't think this is for you.

Like you're best with your chicklet or whatever. And then actually really falling in love with it and kind of discovering more and more. And actually learning so much about the characters and so many different things. I think that was the book that I was like, wow, I'm really, yeah, I'm blown away by this. What about you, Riannan, was there a book that would stay with you? Well, I agree with Liv. I think, you know, as a literary achievement, the lacuna is the one that really stands out for me as being quite groundbreaking. And, you know, just a real undertaking as a reader, as you say.

I mean, it's 670 pages. It's, you know, it is quite an undertaking. and there is a real sense of sort of achievement when you finish it. And, you know, it feels worth it as well. It feels completely worth it. But I think Small Island is the one that will stay with me just because of the emotion of it. And I don't know if that's because of the emotional place that I'm in right now as well.

Like you said, we're living in a very strange time. But I felt the characters very deep. and I was very profoundly moved by the end. I'm Zing Singh and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast, brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Now you definitely want to head over to our website to find out more about the Reading Women Challenge. Get exclusive video and audio content

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