Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S3 Ep1: Bookshelfie: Elizabeth Day

Episode Date: March 31, 2021

Join new host Yomi Adegoke as she explores the Bookshelfie titles which have inspired writer and podcaster Elizabeth Day.  Elizabeth is an award-winning journalist, the author of six books, spanning fiction and non-fiction, and host of the critically acclaimed hit podcast - How To Fail - which explores how failure can ultimately lead to success. She’s also a judge for this year’s Women’s Prize.  Elizabeth’s book choices are:  ** The Ordinary Princess by M. M. Kaye ** The Cazalet Chronicles by Elizabeth Jane Howard ** The Weather in the Streets by Rosamond Lehman ** Good and Mad: The Revolutionary Power of Women’s Anger by Rebecca Traister ** Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston Every week, join journalist and author Yomi Agedoke, and inspirational guests, including Elizabeth Day, Sara Pascoe and Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie as they celebrate the best books written by women. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and has been running for over 25 years, and this series will offer unique access to the shortlisted authors and the 2021 Prize winner.  This podcast is produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com. slash Toronto. With thanks to Bayleys, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives,

all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Yomia Dega K, your new host for Season 3 of the Women's Prize podcast. We have a phenomenal lineup of guests for 2021, and I guarantee you will be taking away plenty of reading recommendations. Each bookshelfy episode, we ask an inspiring woman, to share the story of her life through five different books by women. Hello and welcome to today's episode of Bookshelfy. I'm Yomi Adega Kay and I'm absolutely thrilled to be joining you as your new host for series three,

while I'll be lucky enough to be interviewing some incredible women about the work of other incredible women. Let me start by reminding you that this year's long list is out and the 16 brilliant authors and their books can all be found on our website, women's prize for fiction.com.uk. We are still practicing safe social distancing and this podcast is being recorded remotely. Today's guest is author, journalist and broadcaster Elizabeth Day. Elizabeth is the author of six books spanning fiction and nonfiction

and her critically acclaimed hit podcast, How to Fail, Celebrates the Things That All Went Wrong. Each episode she speaks to people at the top of their game about their failures which were an essential part of their journey to success. Ironically, the podcast success landed her book deal and her latest title, Thelosophy, a handbook for when things go wrong, brings together all her knowledge on this topic and distills it into seven key principles

to guide us through life's rough patches. Elizabeth is also one of the judges for this year's Women's Prize for Fiction and also one of my favourite people that is part of the fourth estate roster. She's my label mate. Yay! I'm so delighted to be here.

I'm so honoured to be your first guest. I know. Oh no. It feels very, very fitting. I mean, you are just such a darling. You are genuinely one of my faves. I mean, over lockdown, I think God, was it first, second, third, who knows, when you sent me a copy of Falosophy, which was just so thoughtfully packed with all these like little goodies and self-care things. It truly was the highlight of that horrendous period. So thank you very much. And can I just say, I promise this won't be a total gush fest, but it's been so amazing watching your. star saw and sore and sore and sore. I feel so, I know it's like my pride is completely misplaced because it's not like I've got anything to do with it. I'm not related to you. But I'm just so proud of you and it's really wonderful thing to see when someone who has genuine talent and works really hard gets what they deserve. So I just wanted to say that. Thank you so much. And I really, really appreciate that because again, to try and stop this from being a total gosh, it will be. I actually remember the first time I met you, which was like, we too.

In a bookstore or something. I think we're like outside like a book shop or something in Central. It was on Tottenham Court Road. Yes. And you and Elizabeth were being taken around by our mutual publicist, Amazing Naomi, who works for the state. And you were doing book signings for Slay in your lane. And I just happened to be walking past.

It's completely random. And I had heard so much about you and so much about that book. And then it was just just a moment of pure serendipity that I feel like it was meant to be. Yeah. Absolutely. And you were so friendly and lovely. God, we were so young. That's, I think, we're like 26, I think or something.

I felt like I was a lot younger than I am now. Yeah, it was a while ago. I remember being really wide-eyed and, like, scared, and you were just super lovely and super friendly. Listen, I feel like we've all aged 10 years in the last year. Like mentally. I'm like, how old was I then? I'm certainly like 53 now.

So, wow. Quite the jump. But yeah, thank you so much for your time today, Elizabeth. I cannot wait to pick your time. brain and also, I mean, obviously the fact that you are one of the judges for the women's prize, I know that you are a big reader and, gosh, I'm just wondering how much you managed to read and whether lockdown has given you the opportunity to read more than normally. It's a great question because you say I'm a big reader. I've become a bigger reader because I've got the immense

honour of being a woman's prize judge, which I'm thrilled about. And I also have just got a new job as one of the co-presenters of Open Book on Radiohead. Which is super, thank you. And at the end of last year, this amazing opportunity, basically came out of nowhere to be one of the presenters for the Sky Arts book club along with the fantastic Andy Oliver. Anyway, during that time, I was honestly, I was reading four books a week. Like, that's what I had to get through. And it reminded me, of university essay crises. And it almost got to the point, almost, Jomi,

where I was like, I'm just, I'm really worried that I'm going to stop enjoying reading. And then things eased off a bit and Sky Arts, like that came to the end of its run. And then the third lockdown was announced. And whilst I was really dispirited

that there was another lockdown, I was like, thank goodness, I now get every single evening and morning to read. And I got into this really beautiful routine where I would wake up at eight, I'm incredibly lucky in that respect that I don't have to get out for children or homeschooling.

I woke up at eight and I would take like a women's prize submission book or something I had to read for open book back to bed with me and I would read for an hour, just uninterrupted. And I don't think I've done that since I was a teenager. And it's really, really helped

being able to read at points during the day where normally I'd be rushing to get the tube or I'd be rushing to meet someone in a bar. And so I've rediscovered the pleasure of that. I really have. And also, I should just say, it's fine if you haven't. Because I think there's also this like whole dialogue around using lockdown to improve yourself and to read all those forgotten classics that you've never got around to. And actually that can feel like too much pressure. And so I think you should only read if you really feel drawn to it. But I have to say it's a lovely way to start the day.

It sounds absolutely incredible in terms of being productive as well because I'm like all this spare time that you've had and you're actually utilising. I've literally spent all of it being like, wow, now I can watch even more Netflix series. And I've been saying I'm going to use this. I'm going to use my new found role as a host of the podcast to ensure that I actually read far more than I do. I do read, but it's more that I start books and very rarely actually manage to make it to the end. So I'm interested in, you know, what your thoughts are, aren't. are on rather abandoning books and whether you do ever feel to finish them. First of all, I want to say that so much stuff on Netflix is the modern version of the novel.

So actually, what you're doing, watching box sets, especially if they're well crafted and well written, is you're getting creative stimulation that way. So don't feel bad about that. And secondly, I need that. I absolutely abandoned books. And I think it's one of those things that I've got less tolerant of the older I've got. and the more books I've written myself, I feel if I haven't engaged with a book

within the first 50 to 100 pages, the chances are that book isn't for me. And I just feel that a really brilliant book should engage me as a reader from the off. And I don't mind like sitting with uncertainty for a chapter or so, but I think once you've got to 100 pages, there are just so many other books out there that I haven't yet read that I want to get onto.

So it's something that I never used to do. I always felt really guilty about it. In the same way that I always used to feel really guilty about giving books away, but then I just realized, like, I'd need to live in a mansion, like in Versailles to accommodate all the books I've read in my life and want to keep. But now I just, I'm trying actively to sort of be kinder to myself and feel less guilty about things that I don't need to feel guilty about. And that is definitely one of them.

I think that's very, very sound. And sage advice. In terms of judging the women's prize this year, how are you feeling about the task ahead? I know you said that you feel like it's an honour. You must be very excited. Super excited. I was just thrilled when they announced the judges because I don't know if you know this, but we don't find out who the other judges are until like two weeks before the official announcement.

I knew that Bernardine Everista was going to be the chair. and that was a major part of saying yes. I've been asked before, which again has been an incredible honour, but I just haven't had time before. And this year I was like, oh my gosh, it's going to be Bernardini. Yes, I will make time. And then I found out who the other judges were. And we're such a great mix.

Nezri Malik, who is a dear friend of mine anyway, is such an incredible mind. She's, I think, one of the best columnists working in Britain today. There's Vic Hope, who is super smart. this young DJ who like comes with such fresh intelligence. There's Sarah Jane Me, who's a news anchor on Sky, who is reading books around like nursing her newborn baby. And I just think that we all come from different parts of a cultural experience.

And I think that we're going to come up hopefully with a really great long list. So I was a bit overwhelmed by the reading task, but I'm quite a nerd. and so I'm quite conscientious. So I kind of started it earlier than I think some others have. And I've only now got one book left of all my submissions to read. And I've honestly discovered some amazing authors who I wasn't familiar with, some first-time novelists who have blown me away.

And books that I hadn't realized until I came to be a judge how much I value originality. It doesn't have to be originality of plot. because, as is famously said, there are no real original plots. And it doesn't really have to be originality of language, like writing without any punctuation. But there has to be something about a book that feels fresh and urgent for me to want to read it that speaks to the now.

And honestly, I cannot wait to talk about them. One of the frustrations has been that I haven't been able to post or share about any of these incredible novels I've been reading because I've got to be, you know, ethical, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that's on the frustration. So I can't wait, as you can probably tell, just to be able to. I can literally hear it. You're making me really excited because I get to read them too.

I get to read the long list for the podcast. I'm like, ah, yeah, I've got a lot to look forward to. So your first book for bookshelfy is The Ordinary Princess by MMK. Can you tell me a little bit about this book? Yes. So this is probably one of the most influential books of my childhood. I would also put up there when Hitler stole Pink Rabbit by Jules. Judith Kerr who wrote the Mog books and the tiger who came to tea.

And I was really drawn to the Second World War because I grew up in Northern Ireland and we moved there when I was four and it was 1982 and it was a time of conflict and it was essentially a war zone. So I had a whole like passion for reading about other war zone children's books. But I thought that might make me sound a bit weird and dark to choose that. But the other children's book that massively had an impact on me was the ordinary princess. And I think I was about eight when I first read it. And it's a subversion of the traditional fairy story.

It's about a princess called Amethyst. She's called Amy for short. And she's got a kind of a grumpy fairy godmother called brilliantly Cross decia who gives her at her christening the gift of ordinariness. So Princess Amy, unlike her older sisters, grows up with mousy hair. She's freckled and plain. she prefers to play in the woods and be with animals than go around being royal in all her finery. She doesn't want to go to official banquets. She befriends a crow and a squirrel.

And she spends a lot of the time in the forest, essentially just being her true authentic self. And while she's in the forest, she meets a young man who also appears to be ordinary, but all is not as it seems. And I just loved it because I was a child who. who wasn't very cool, spent a lot of time in the countryside in kind of scrappy corduroy trousers, was a massive reader even then, spent a lot of time in my imagination,

loved animals, and I didn't really fit in, especially not when I went to secondary school, and especially not in Northern Ireland speaking with the English accent that I speak with. And something about Princess Amy being free enough to be and fulfill the truest expression of herself

in all of her ordnouriness, was a really beautiful thing. And I felt very close to that character. Oh, God, that's so touching. It's really sweet. It's one of those books that I'm probably slightly too old for, but like genuinely really does speak to me in terms of the plot. It feels slightly ahead of its time.

Yeah, and it's also one that I don't think many people know about. Yeah, I think I was given it actually, ironically enough, by a godmother. And I think the other thing that I like about it is that it teaches us empathy for other kinds of lives. And that, as you know, Yomi, has become a kind of lifelong preoccupation of mine, that ability to sort of go beneath the surface and realize that even if someone appears to be living a successful life and the kind of aspirational life, actually there's a lot more going on beneath the surface. Absolutely.

I'm going to be touching on that quite soon, excitingly. Why would you say it affected you so much? And more importantly, do you think you were aware of the effect that, this book was having on you because I think when I said it was sort of ahead of its time I feel like we are now sort of through Disney princesses seeing this real subversion of what the traditional fairy stories are and this definitely sounds like it kind of predates that in quite an interesting way so I'm interested in whether you're aware of how kind of subversive it was and and what effect it was having on you and your sense of self-esteem as a child yeah that's such a great question I was

aware of something at the time I was aware instinctively that this book spoke to me but it's only in retrospect that I realize I was, I wasn't exactly a tomboy, but I liked spending a lot of time doing my own things and with animals in kind of nature. And I didn't find it that easy to make friends with other children. And so I found a lot of friends in the pages of books like this, but you're right that there weren't that many at that time. So this really spoke to me on that level, as did another book called My Nauty Little Sister. I can't remember who wrote it, which is the Ron Seal approach to titling.

It does exactly what it says on the tin. It was all about this naughty, mischievous little sister. And I think that those kind of books spoke to a feeling I had of not finding it easy to fit in and being slightly misunderstood sometimes. So it's not that I was naughty. It's not that I was stubborn. It's not that I was weird. There was just like a lot going on inside my head.

And I found it, yeah, like Princess Amy, I just really enjoyed spending time with animals because I didn't feel judged by them. God, I sound so sad. I sound like a protagonist and like an upcoming Pixar movie for sure. I do. I mean, there was lots of happiness as well. But I think it's that thing, I think it's about moving to Northern Ireland, to be completely honest. Like, I went from sounding like everyone else and being close to my extended family to at the age of four, living somewhere where there were

routine bomb scares and bombs going off and knee cappings and scary men in balaclavas marching in the streets. And where to speak with an English accent like mine was to mark you out in certain quarters as an occupier. And so that was really discombobulating. And that's why I looked for a sense of safety and self-worth in books. So you're right. I think it probably was quite good for my self-esteem. Thank you so much, Elizabeth. So onto your second book for bookshelfy, which is the Casillette.

I hope I've said that correctly. Yes, I have. Okay, thank God. The Casillette Chronicles by Elizabeth Jane Howard. What is this book about? Oh, well, it's at the time I read it, it was a quartet. And then she added another book shortly before she died. Elizabeth Jane Howard is a novelist who I think is still extremely underrated.

And I think it's partly because she was writing at a time when women were pigeonholed as authors of domestic dramas. And she was married for a while to Kingsley Amos, whose career massively overshadowed her own. And for many years, she was basically his kind of domesticated wife who would boil him eggs. and also raise his children, including Martin Amos famously, who credits her with his love of English literature. And so her career was massively overshadowed. And these books I overlooked because in the 90s, they were published with terrible covers,

with like twee watercolor painting covers in pastels. And loads of people at school were reading them, but I sort of disdained them. And it was only when I joined the observer at the age of 29, and I befriended this wonderful woman called E.D., who was the editor's secretary, and she's an inveterate reader, and she was like, you have to read them. Put aside your prejudice and read them. And they are an epic sweep of novels that tell the story of a single family, the Casillots, during and after the Second World War in Sussex in England. And what Elizabeth Jane Howard does

with these books is she tells social history without you realizing that's what's happening. and you are so invested in her characters and who they are to each other and themselves that it is the most wonderful comfort read and it's also great literature. And when it came to writing my first book, I'm completely untrained. I've never done a creative writing course, but it's actually quite difficult when you're writing your first novel to understand what to do with tenses and shifts in perspective. And I went back to Elizabeth Jane Howard to the Cassett Chronicles to work out how she'd done it because she shifts sometimes in the space of a paragraph from kind of one person's perspective to another.

And it never felt clunky. I never realized that that was what she was doing. It seems effortless. And I just love these books so, so much. As you can probably tell, I will never stop banging the drum for them. So that is why I've chosen them. And you mentioned going back to this book in particular. for I guess technical guidance in terms of writing,

which I think we don't necessarily talk enough about as writers. You know, people discuss being possessed by the pen essentially and, you know, things just pouring out of them. You know, you just, you know, you just sort of word vomit, these beautiful sentences. But there is, it's a real craft and there is a lot of technicality to it that I think often goes ignored. What was it like for you when you were writing that first book

and, you know, that joyous experience of securing your first book deal. It's so true that what you said about the kind of craft of writing. And I also think it's true of podcasts. Like there's this sense that you can just record something in your living room and then just put it out there and it'll be a hit podcast. Actually quite a lot of work goes into it. And I've never been someone who like just everything flows from the pen and it's like I've been overtaken by the creative muse. Like it's a lot of work to write a book. So my first novel, I always knew that I wanted to write books. And I had several full stars. And I had several full stars. where I was just trying too hard.

I was trying too hard to write like the authors I admired or I was trying too hard to write a completely fantastical plot. And in the end, I just started writing something almost for myself. I didn't have any expectation of it. And it was about a woman who turned up at the bedside of her husband who was in a coma. And she, through the course of the book, you realize that their marriage, although it seemed happy, was deeply dysfunctional.

And various things happened along the way. And at the time I was working at The Observer, reading Elizabeth Jane Howard, an agent contacted me wanting me to write nonfiction. And that quite often happens with journalists. And we met up and I liked her and I said, but I don't want to write nonfiction. I want to write fiction. I've got these 5,000 words. And I sent them to her and she liked them. And she said, carry on and write the book and then we'll send it out to publishers. And that gave me permission in a way to continue doing it. without feeling stupid. And it was very important for me to have an objective sounding board without having to talk to friends and family about it because I didn't want to embarrass myself by talking about this novel that I was writing that might never see the light of day. And so Jessica, who was my then agent and I worked on it together and I wrote the whole thing and then it got sent out to publishers and it got rejected by the first five publishers that she sent it to. and Jessica used to forward me the rejection emails, just word for word.

She just forwarded the whole email. Now that is a really hard thing. And I still remember them and I still remember the editors he rejected that book. And then I got an amazing email from a wonderful editor at Bloomsbury who basically heard that it was doing the rounds, asked to see it. And that was Helen, who is my beloved editor and yours, Yomi. And until this day, she has edited every single book of mine. And that's how I got a book deal.

Wow. So it was work because I had to write the whole book on spec. And that's why I really hate writing proposals now because I've never really, never really done it. I just wrote the book. I'd much rather do that. But yeah, that's how it happened. Wow.

Oh, my gosh. Well, just a side note to Helen's impeccable taste. Like very, very, I mean, when you said Helen, I kind of was like, wait, is this our same Helen? Like, wow. Yes. That's incredible. But yeah, it's such an interesting story. And I think a super inspiring one because obviously, you know, you speak so eloquently about failure and imposter syndrome.

And, you know, obviously, especially on social media, it can appear that as many of us, you know, sort of arrive, fully formed at the coast like Venus and everything is perfectly sorted out. and immaculate when, you know, there's a lot that we don't see. So I'm interested in, you know, do you think that your imposter syndrome is what sort of led you to be interested in conversations around failure and, you know, exploring the power that lies within our sort of flaws and imperfections? Definitely. I mean, imposter syndrome and feeling like you don't fit in, I suppose I see now have so much in common. And so I spent a lot of my life kind of pretend, to be okay. And part of the way that I did that was to try and meet everyone else's expectations or hopes of me, which is another way of saying people pleasing. But I sometimes think that it

sounds like a humble brag when I say, oh, I was such a people pleaser. I'm just such a great person. And I'm not saying that at all. I was actually, I didn't know who I was because I was constantly outsourcing my sense of self to other people's opinions of me. And it was during this time that I started carving out a career as a journalist. And as part of that career, as you know, because you do such brilliant interviews, you're sent to profile incredibly quote unquote successful people who appear to have it all, you know, shiny celebrities who are utterly stunning and I've won Oscars or Booker Prizes or, and so I was being thrust into an environment where all the stories I was telling were about success. And there was a real dissonance there for me. And I got quite frustrated

with that kind of interview. And very often I'd be interviewing someone and we'd go off on a tangent and they'd tell me something really revealing personally, I don't know, about their family or their upbringing. And those bits were always the bits I found most interesting. The bits where they they weren't on message, where they weren't in promotion mode, where they were actually talking to me on a very human level. And they were the bits that always got cut out when I would write up the interview because there's a word count pressure and, you know, editors only want you to talk about their film or their recent divorce.

Anyway, that really frustrated me. And so it was a combination of those two things that drew me to the idea of talking specifically about flaws and vulnerability. Firstly, because I think it's a shortcut to connection. And secondly, because I really wanted to make it clear to other people living their lives that all is not what it seems. And we live in such an aspirational culture

where we're constantly comparing our insides with other people's outsides. I think a lot of us can feel that we don't fit in or like impostors or that we're not good enough. and I just wanted to attack that whole notion. And so that's how to fail was born. Definitely something that I'm going to be probing you further on in a moment because, I mean, personally, I've just sat here making lots of mental notes.

Like, honestly, I think, I mean, especially for women, honestly, when it comes, I mean, I really loved your kind of re-framing of what people-pleasing is because I do think so much of it does come down to just an innate misunderstanding or just no understanding of who you are. And, yeah, completely outsour. The idea of outsourcing who you are, and even, I think, to take it further, like, who you think you should be, who you think you want to be, to others is huge. I mean, I took an entire degree because I thought, go, I should be a lawyer because everyone else is a lawyer. So I guess I'll do that.

Yeah, it's a very common thing. And it's something I think lots of us are still grappling with, even during a bloody pandemic when it's like, if there's ever a time to give yourself a break. Kind of now. Kind of now. But it's difficult in a pandemic because there's so much more time, although time also seems to go really quickly and slowly simultaneously, that we're spending more, at least I am, spending more time scrolling through social media. Absolutely. Which is just exhausting sometimes. It really is. Star Wars Andor streaming exclusively on Disney Plus.

Gassian Ander. Empire is choking us. I need all the heroes I can get. From the creators of Rogue One. There is an organized rebel effort. Get a hunt started. Witness the beginning. This is what revolution looks like. Of rebellion. I'm tired of losing.

Wouldn't you rather give it all up to something real? Star Wars Andor, original series streaming September 21st, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required, T-Sense and C supply. This podcast is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish Cream. Bayleys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the house. of more people. Babies is the perfect adult treat, whether in coffee, over ice cream or paired with your favourite book. Enjoying the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast? Share the literary love

and be part of the future of the Women's Prize Trust by making a one-off donation to support our important workers to charity. Donations of all sizes help us to continue empowering women regardless of their age, race, nationality or background to raise their voice and own their story. Search for Support the Women's Prize to find out more. Your third book for bookshelby is The Weather in the Streets by Rosamund Lemon. Could you tell me how you first came to find this book and what it's all about? So this is probably the most bookish anecdote ever in that I found this book when I was in Hay on Y for the Hay Literary Festival. And there's an amazing secondhand bookshop there that is almost like a cathedral for books.

I can't remember what it's called. It's Richard something bookshop. I'll look it up. So I was in this secondhand bookshop in Hay and Y, and I happened across this book, The Weather in the Streets, and it was one of those old Virago classics with a green spine.

And although I'd heard the name, Rosam and Lehman, I'd never read her. And there was something about it. I just thought, oh, I'll give it a shot. I think I, you know, I sound very superficial

because I really do judge books by their cover. I think there was clearly something about the cover that drew me in. And I would have been in my, early 30s when I first read it. And it's actually the second, it's a sequel to an earlier book she's written called Invitation to a Waltz, which is all about a 17-year-old protagonist called Olivia, who goes to her first ball. And it is exactly as enticing as that sounds. It's like a kind of modern day Jane Austen. It's like quite thrilling to read and she meets Rowley, who she has a

massive crush on. Anyway, weather in the streets, fast forwards, and the two of them, connect. But it's now Olivia's in her 20s. She's living a bohemian life in London and she ends up having an affair with this married man. And it just struck me when I read it in my early 30s as an incredibly good read that spoke to very modern problems, infidelity, identity, womanhood. And it was published in 1936 and it was very famous at the time or infamous because it depicts a backstreet abortion, which for the time was like an extraordinary thing for a female author to do. I then put that book aside for a few years and I returned to it because I was asked on to another podcast, which was all about rediscovering lost classics. And I talked about weather

in the streets and I reread it. And when I reread it, I had been through a divorce, fertility issues and my first miscarriage. I reread it again and I was blown away just again with like, accuracy and clarity and lyricism of Rosamond Lehman's language, it seemed to be speaking directly to me and to my experience, even though I was reading it in the mid-2000s. And so I think there was something about that that I found very compelling. And when I reread it, I also did that thing that we were talking about earlier, where I really noticed the craft that she had put into it.

and she did things like shift perspective from I to she. So she would sometimes talk about Olivia in the first person and sometimes in the third. And so that's a very modernist thing to do. And yet I hadn't noticed it the first time around because it was such a good story. And I think that for me is the definition of a really great book where you can meld art and craft with a brilliant plot and totally convincing characterisation so that essentially you never forget. get your duty to tell a great story. And you've spoken, you know, about you're going through a divorce, you had experienced fertility issues, you'd had a miscarriage, and, you know, I think it's, it just speaks to the power of books that, you know, you were able to read this book and, and identify

with it, feel that it was speaking directly to you. It's something that, I mean, when I do read an incredible book, I feel that, you know, regardless of what world it's set in or how, you know, relatable is to me, I feel that it is truly speaking to me. I'm interested in how books have helped you process and cope with these experiences that are so specific and difficult and often can be portrayed and depicted in a way, not just in literature, but I'd say even on television that aren't necessarily accurate or don't necessarily speak to the experience. So how have books helped you through those experiences? It's just another really such a good question on me. I don't seek out books by subject matter. I don't seek out novels by subject matter.

So if I were going through a really tough time, I don't think, I'm not the kind of person who'd be like, I need to read a novel that is about this to help me sort my feelings out. I am someone who is always reading a book. And when I'm going through a tough time, the book that I happen to be reading or that I pick out at a bookshop

will have this sometimes extraordinary resonance. Again, I feel like there's a faithfulness to it. Another example of that is that when I was going through my divorce, I moved to LA for three months, which was an incredibly liberating experience in more ways than one. And my friend Fran, who I think is possibly the most well-read person I know, was reading this new novelist called Elena Ferranti, who I hadn't really heard of when she's like,

oh, it's a quartet of novels and it's about female friendship. Again, the covers were terrible, Yomi, but I'd learned from my previous mistakes, and I read them. And they almost made it into this list of five, by the way. I love those books so much. And again, what Elena Ferranti was writing about was so helpful to me at that moment, because not only does, I think both of the characters actually, well, they're both the characters go through failed relationships. And I think they both go through failed marriages. And I found it so helpful because the way Elena Ferranti wrote about it, was that these women were growing into their agency

and they had to end the relationships that weren't good for them, that didn't treat them with the value that they deserved. And it was all about them growing into a consciousness of who they were and their own self-worth and their own power as women. I cannot tell you how helpful that was for me to read. So it definitely, like books like that really helped me sit with and process emotion. I think what makes it different from a TV program is that,

it takes longer to read a book as it should. And so you really have time to digest and process and imagine. And when you find yourself in the pages of a novel, you feel less alone. You feel so understood. There are those moments I can remember where it literally takes your breath away where you read a novelist describe something so accurately in precisely the way that you've experienced it. And you're like, oh, I feel so understood. So they're definitely important for that reason. I have to say, I also do a lot of processing by watching the real housewives.

And you and I know, share a love of reality television because I've read your piece on Bling Empire. And I was like, thank you for putting into words how I feel about it. The very best medicine, like honestly, if it hadn't been for reality television, I don't know, if I would have made it to the other side of lockdown to you on this. But that's a good way of processing things. also is writing. And I think one thing, I mean, for the myriad of reasons that you were inspiring and, you know, incredible, another thing that is just, you know, that I truly admire and have definitely grappled with myself as a journalist is how candid you are. And you write so beautifully, but also speak so beautifully about experiences that are very, very difficult. And I'm interested in how you essentially do that because I feel that it's only very much in the last, I'd say potentially a year and a half.

I've actually gone to a place where I feel comfortable to write about certain things, not just because I'm afraid of sharing them, but also because, you know, even while it's writing it, I remember I was writing about mental health in Slay in your lane and literally welling up at like the experience, like, you know, remembrance of certain things I've experienced. And it can be a very difficult thing to navigate. So I'm interested in how you manage to do that.

And also whether, I mean, I imagine I could guess the answer, but whether that helps you process certain, experiences that you've had. Yes. It took me a really long time to feel comfortable writing as myself about my own experience. And I don't think it's a coincidence that it took me until after I had been through a divorce and various other things. And I basically had to kind of reinvent my life. So it was only in my late mid-30s. I left a staff job on a national newspaper to go freelance. I had no jobs lined up. I'd left this marriage. I walked out of my home, found a rented flat in Kentish Town that I still adore the memory of to this day, and essentially had to rebuild myself.

And that's when I started writing as me. And I think it's because I finally worked out who I was. I finally worked out who I was without the kind of scaffolding of all the other stuff that I thought I was meant to have sorted by that time in my life. And the reason I kept on doing it is because the first time I did it, it had such an incredible response. And I felt really seen because I was writing authentically about an experience that had happened to me, when people respond positively to that, it feels very special. It feels like you're being accepted as you. And so I kept on doing it and partly because, as you say, it is cathartic for me. I feel, you know in a yoga class when you are in the flow,

where you sort of slightly forget about the absurdity of the whole situation, you're like, oh, that's what breathing means and you're in a pose, it feels really good. The only time I feel that in life is when I'm writing, and I feel untangled. So it's a very helpful way for me to work out what I think about something. I'm much better in writing than I am in speech. I like having the luxury of time to kind of go over sentences

and it's just me in the computer. I find something very cathartic about that. And I think also, you know, there's a couple of other things I would say. I only really write about things that I believe can connect on a bigger level than just me. I want to be able to help other people who, for whatever reason, very valid reasons,

don't feel like shouting about what they've been through. A lot of women, for instance, don't want to tell even their closest family members that they've been through a miscarriage or that they're having IVF. I can do that. Like I have a platform. I want to do that.

And that brings me an enormous amount of connection with people who then message me and feel reflected in that. So that's important to me. It has to be sort of beyond just me. And then the other thing is that I always need time to process things privately. So I'm quite weird in that,

often my first impulse is to write about something and to share it. But I know that it makes much more sense for me from a mental health perspective to give myself a few weeks. So I've now had two more miscarriages. I've had three miscarriages in my life. And I now know that when I go through something like that, it's incredibly painful. There's something in me. It's almost like an anger where I'm like, I need to share this and write it and like to just explode the whole thing. And I know I need to, that's a distraction for me. I need to actually sit with it and process. And then in the fullness of time, I can write about it. So that's the other thing that I would say. I know that some very lovely people, including my mother, worry about me making myself too vulnerable. And that's what

I will say is that I always, there is always a kind of moat of protection around me in terms of time. And I would never write about something that, for instance, would make other people vulnerable. So I'm very open with my other half and people who it all will affect. So those are the necessary boundaries I have in place. We really do appreciate your openness. And I love the fact that you, you know, you sort of said it is about connecting with other people because even with certain things that I've written, I've definitely weighed up like if this could, it sounds very like, you know, worthy to say, oh, if this can help just one person, but truly, if it often can help thousands of people, hundreds of people, but really and truly, if it can just help one person that doesn't feel

like they have the platform or the ability to speak to certain things, it really can make a world of difference. So we appreciate you, Elizabeth. Thank you. That's a lovely thing to say. Thank you. It's very true. And I really hope you don't mind. I really do want to talk about your other half because I want to talk about hinge. Okay, please do it. Bones of my hinge. Because there is a point to this, which is about projection because, so, you know, it's almost like a running joke between me and Elizabeth, like, anytime we're kind of like, should we get back on Hinge or like, you know, well, you know, Elizabeth is the like perfect advert for that platform

because obviously you met your other half on Hinge. And, you know, I think it very much, as an objective, you are, I mean, you're both beautiful, talented people. It's very much a modern day love story and very much like a modern day fairy tale. But I think it's one of those things where in the same way, you know, when we talk about failure and stuff and people internalizing that, I think obviously when things, when you see things on social media and, you know, especially things that are really beautiful to see, people can also project that,

despite you being so open about failure and so open about things you've experienced, people can then also not just because of your, like, lovely relationship, but you're very talented, you're somebody that's achieved a lot. Do you still find that people sort of essentially project an idea of perfection onto you, despite the fact that you've been very open about the difficulties that you've experienced. Definitely. And I have to say, I think it's something that female authors get specifically when they write about their own lives. There's a sense that you haven't suffered enough.

It's like, for you to have a platform, you need to have suffered this amount and how much you've suffered isn't enough. I've just decided I've decreed. And I find it really judgmental. and slightly unkind. And of course, I speak from a place of incredible privilege. I'm white, I'm middle class, I make a living from sitting at a laptop. I can't speak with any direct experience as to what it is not to be those things. But I can seek to investigate that.

I can seek to ask other people questions about that who have those experiences. And I can put that somewhere that I hope offers some sort of guide. or practical advice for others who are going through a tough time. That is all I ever wanted to do. I'm not an expert on failure. I don't put myself out there as someone who like, the only way that I can possibly talk about this subject is to keep on failing throughout my life

because the whole point of how to fail as a philosophy is that we learn from our failures if we want to. And in that way, you can hopefully progress and evolve. Not all failures, but the majority of. and I also try to use social media in a way that is upbeat. So I won't really put on there the days that I'm just crying for no reason because I don't feel I need to do that. I feel like everyone has those days and it doesn't make my heart sing

to see other people going through pain. So I'm quite careful about what I share. And although obviously I will share my writing about painful episodes of my life, life, but from a perspective of hindsight where I've had time to process it. So I do, yeah, I do find that. And I also understand it because I've been there. I've been at times in my life where it feels like nothing is going to plan. And I've scrolled through Instagram and I've seen those happy couples and I've been like, fuck you. And I get it and that's a human impulse and that's fine. And if I do that for you. I'm really sorry and just mute me or unfollow me and that's okay.

No, you've just got me on Hinge. That's all you've done for me. That I directly blame you for. But other than that, I mean, I love your feed. Thank you. I got asked if I was sponsored by Hinge. When I posted about our engagement, I was like, I promise you I'm not sponsored. I'm just elated. You should be. I'm not going to lie. That's the collaboration that we genuinely need to see because I would do anything for a campaign based on X. Oh, I know. I keep you. trying. I keep being like, come on, sponsor me. Anyway, but no, I think you're right. I get it.

I sort of get both sides. But ultimately, I can't fall into the trap that I was in in my 20s and early 30s, which was trying to please other people's opinions. I can no longer cut my shape so that it fits in with whatever you want because you're going through something on that particular day. So I just have to be true to myself. And it's such a cliche, but that is absolutely the way. way I navigate social media and any success that I've been lucky enough to have. I completely, I honestly couldn't agree more. It's exactly how I use Instagram and it really brings to mind the quote from Zadie Smith's intimations and I've just pulled it up where she says, suffering has an absolution relation to the suffering individual. It could not be easily mediated

by a third term like privilege. And I truly, I thought that line was just, it just really, really, I think especially doing lockdown where, you know, everyone's kind of suffering at most certainly different levels, but, you know, everybody's suffer. It even feels quite difficult to even say it because it feels like, you know, then, then you know, you have to caveat it with different levels of privilege and I completely understand that. But I just think that quote very much speaks to what you've said. Can I just interject because I love that quote as well. But there's also a particular bugbear of mine, which is that I don't think in this country we're very good at allowing women to be more than one thing. If I just stayed in my lane, sorry, forgive the pun,

given the title of the book, but if I just stayed in a box, easy categorisable, a journalist, fine, that would have been fine. But then I had the temerity to write novels, and then I have the temerity to launch a podcast, and then I wrote nonfiction, and now I've got this whole other element, which I love and adore, and I'm super excited by, but I never planned, of kind of broadcasting. And I don't, a lot of people don't like that. but a lot of people, those same people, allow men to do that all the time. Men can have polyphonic careers. And I think it really frustrates me because in America there is an absolute assumption that we all have to be multi-hyphenates.

And I find that a very liberating attitude. And I think that's also where there's just like a granule of resentment about women being more than one thing. Absolutely. And being more than one thing, brilliantly, which you definitely are. So yeah, yeah, I totally. Do you agree with that? You mean? I completely agree with that. I think that when it comes to women, especially there is a need to prove before you sort of swerve into that lane. So it's very much like what makes you the expert on. And then it's, okay, but what makes him the expert on as well? Like, if we're going to play that game, then it's very much on what basis is he launching this? On what basis is he, do you get what I'm saying? So no, it's definitely something that I feel, I feel that. I feel that, I feel that. we most certainly have to, for lack of a better phrase, pull up receipts to show that we have the right to do something first, comparative to men. And it's very, very, very, very frustrating.

But yeah, no, I totally agree. I'm waiting for a man to tell me. I shouldn't be hosted this podcast. Who do you think you are? Professor podcast. We're on to your fourth choice for bookshelfy, which is good and mad, the revolutionary power of women's anger by Rebecca Traster,

I think it's like great just segueing on from that last segment. Yes, we've got quite angry. Can you tell me a bit about the book? With pleasure. I think Rebecca Traster is one of the best essayists working today. And America in particular has such a noble tradition of brilliant kick-ass female essayists, including Giotoletino and the other Rebecca Solnit. Anyway, Rebecca Traster wrote this book called Good and Mad,

and I picked it up in an airport, and I was flying back from L.A. and I read the whole thing on the flight, it was like jet fuel being injected into my veins. It was so extraordinary. And it's a reclamation of women's anger, which historically has been subsumed or diverted or suppressed or masked by different emotions such as sadness. And it really revolutionized how I thought about my own anger

which for basically my whole life, I think, I've sort of hidden. And I think I, you know, someone asked me the other day, what happens when you lose your temper? And I was like, oh, I never do. But that's not true. I do lose my temper. I just don't do it visibly. I put it all internally.

And it's so unhealthy. And this book just made me see that anger can be fuel and can be used to change society for the better. and she investigates certain examples of female anger and how they've been portrayed. One of the main things she looked at, or maybe this was, I think she mentioned Lorena Bobbitt, and then I got inspired by that and talked about Lorena Bobbitt a lot in how to fail the book. Lorena Bobbitt infamously cut off her husband's penis because he was being unfaithful to her, and she was portrayed as a figure of derision and sort of demented, hysterical, harpy level. fury. And it was, when I actually looked into it, it was so unfair how she was presented.

Like, he had a history of domestic abuse. There was, you know, it had caused her an incredible trauma. And Traster also looks at Rosa Parks. And she, Rosa Parks has traditionally been seen as this nice, quiet little lady who was finally pushed to this act of revolution, which was sitting in a different section of the bus when buses were still segregated in America. But actually, what Traster taught me is that Rosa Parks had been an agitator up to that point. She was a legit activist. She was already righteously angry about inequality as well as she should have been. And it was really interesting for me to see it in that context because I realized it had never been taught to me like that in school lessons. The fact that Rosa Parks could school her anger

and focus it in a way that it would change society forever. other than just being seen as this sweet little old lady who just wanted to sit somewhere else. And so that was really interesting to me and it really changed my thinking. It's interesting, you know, when you said you went to sort of look into these, I mean, after reading the book

and you read more around Lerner-Bobit, you read more about Rosa Parks and just filling in the gaps of their stories that we, you know, essentially have been obscured from, you know, history or just any sort of conversation, really. I feel like if a lot more young women were aware of these narratives and stories, they'd have probably come to feminism earlier,

they'd have probably come to certain realisations earlier. So I'm interested in when did you really sort of start reading about feminism and doing that work? I've become more radicalised the older I get. There's that cliche that you're meant to become more and more right wing. I've done completely the opposite. So I went to secondary school in Northern Ireland. I didn't have a very good time.

I ended up getting a scholarship to an all-girls school in England. So I went to this all-girls school, which was filled with the kind of feminine energy that you're talking about. It felt like a really strong confidence-boosting place for me to be. So I was a feminist then without having the language to claim that for myself. Because I didn't really read into what that meant right then. I just knew that I believed in equality between the genders. And then I don't, like, university for me was during like the rise of the ladet. So all of those kind of radio one DJs who are like,

we can go and sink points of lager with the boys. And it was also a time when women were like doing a lot of stripper lessons for and do's being like, we can claim this because it's our sexuality and it's our choice. So that was a very confusing time. And then I think, to be honest, for me, my real awakening came pretty late on. It was the Me Too movement.

It was the Me Too movement that made me re-categorize my past. And when women started talking about the whole, harassment and sexual assault that they had experienced and had to deal with in their lives. Initially, I thought, well, I'm lucky because I've never had that. And then when I saw what people were putting on Twitter, I was like, oh, I mean, I had that, obviously, but I never categorized it as harassment or sexual assault. And so I looked back at my past and I just realized that when I got my first job in journalism, I felt lucky that the men had allowed me to be there.

And I was determined that I would be as good as and never give a man. an opportunity to say I wasn't their equal. And so that meant like working extremely hard and working overtime and saying yes to everything. And that was unequal in and of itself. And so at that point, really, I think I started to just look at the world differently and yeah, read a lot of essayists. There's another, there's another, I think it's an article in, I think it's the New York Times magazine by Leslie Jameson, where she talks about how Uma, Thurman was asked on a red carpet about her experiences with Harvey Weinstein. And she said at that point, I'm not going to speak now. I'm too angry. I need some time to go away and digest and then I'll

speak. And I admire that because everyone needs time to process their emotions and speak when they're ready. But also, what does it say about us as a culture that a woman feels ashamed at the idea of speaking her anger when someone has tormented her and abused his power in such an outrageous way. And so I think I just became a lot more aware of those kind of double standards. Your fifth and final book for this week's bookshelfy is Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neil Hurston. Tell me about when you first read this book. Oh, I first read this book last August, which is shamefully again late. And I have that slight thing. I don't know if you have this. I feel like we've got similar energy. When people, when people,

something is a classic or people are like you have to read or you have to watch shits creak whatever i don't want to do that and it's often i'm often cutting off my nose despite my face and and their eyes are watching god was one such example um and i didn't read it for ages even though it was my bookshelf for ages i took it on holiday because we managed to get a week in italy in between lockdowns my then-partner now um husband actually i haven't said that publicly but we did to manage to marry. Congratulations. Thank you, my darling.

You're so sweet. Oh my God. Okay, no, if Hinge don't get in touch now, I'm personally going to, I'm literally going to use the report function to like have a go at them because this is insane now. Oh, huge congrats, Elizabeth. Thank you.

Yes, sorry, carry on. We basically just went and like signed the documents and we're going to have a wedding later. So whatever. Anyway, but we are married. So we went on holiday. and his three kids came as well and his mum. So it was like,

pro bonbo, we were getting all our holidays in. We got this video in Italy. And I read, and their eyes were watching God by the pool. And I was blown away by it. I was blown away by the poetic nature of Hurston's prose. And also the fact that she's very earthy as well.

It's like a really extraordinary combination. The earthiness and the lyricism together. she writes in dialect. It's like a kind of full, multi-sensory experience to read this book. I'm terrible at remembering plots, even though I only read it a few months ago, but I massively remember feelings

that books leave me with. And this was like having the top of my head, like opened, like a can opener. There was this whole, just the way she expresses certain things just really has stayed with me still. And it has one of the best, I believe metaphors for love that I've ever read in any book. And it's spoken by Teake, who, so basically, from what I remember,

and their eyes are what she got is about Janie Crawford, who is in her 40s and she recounts her life as she remembers it, starting with her sexual awakening. And she goes through two unsuccessful marriages. So again, this is like way before it's time. I mean, it's a 1937 novel. And eventually she finds true love with, with a tea cake who is a kind of charming, odd job layabout.

And tea cake describes love as like the sea. It's a moving thing, but still and all takes its shape from the shore it meets and it's different with every shore. I was like, yes, it's different with every shore. My Libra is living. I love laugh. Oh my God, this is beautiful. And I'm not going to throw you under the bus because I have not watched it as quick.

all read their eyes or watching. So, you know, you are, you know, feel a lot better because I need to read that now. But yeah, but it's so good. And I just,

that description of love, it's exactly that. It's like, it stuck with me and it just so happens that on that holiday, Justin and I got engaged. And so now I always connect that book and that passage

with a really beautiful moment of romantic connection in my own life where it felt like and it feels like, and I know you and I have spoken about this, but I met Justin at a time of my life where we were both scarred by stuff that had happened. But those scars and that kind of complementary pathology

just like made love more beautiful in a way that I'd never experienced. So it was like the sea meeting the shore. And that's why I love that look. Oh my God, if you could see my face. My cheeks are hurting from smiling. Okay, I need to. to get in one more question about this because it's too lovely. I want to know how your view of love is different now to when you were a teenager, to how it's just changed and grown and, you know,

yeah, over the years, how would you say it's differed? Oh my gosh, it's so different and I'm so grateful that it's so different because as a teenager and in my 20s, I was looking for someone to complete me. So Jerry McGuire has a lot to answer for. And I was also, you know, I was highly influenced by kind of 1980s rom-coms, which always end with the boy and the girl ending up together. And that's that's seen as an entire art. And you're like, no, actually now, looking back, the real arc should be, they decide to get together and then what happens. And so I had very traditionally romantic notions of what I was looking for. And I wanted it to be someone who I would be struck by a thunderbolt and it would be so passionate that we couldn't consider but be together

and it would just, you know, there'd be this incredible like raging wild sea of love and all that sort of stuff. And what that did was lead me into relationships with narcissists who loved the fact that I was thinking they could complete me, who really enjoyed the fact that I was a massive people pleaser who just wanted to please them. And if you asked me where I wanted to go for lunch, I'd be like, oh, where do you want to go for lunch? I was that kind of person, which actually makes me feel slightly sick to look back on. And through my life, you know, those relationships I've described have ended for one reason or the other. And I think I also mistook, am I allowed to swear on this podcast? I think I already have. You already have so. If not, I'm sorry.

You know, like, I think I mistook emotional fuckwittage for passion. So that thing of like being in a state of constant anxiety, like will he call, won't he? Is he going to see me this weekend? Isn't he? How does he feel about me? You can mistake that for a sort of passionate excitement. It is not that. I now realize that true love for me is about feeling safe and secure with someone,

feeling safe and secure being your whole self with someone. And for me, true love started with an instant attraction, and it was someone I met on Hinge, and I'd been on a lot of bad dates. It was an instant attraction, but it wasn't fireworks and kind of, oh, I found the person who's going to make sense of this experience called life. It was two adults meeting as they're grown, fully realized selves, being honest with each other. And one of the things that I so valued about Justin from the off is that he's an incredible communicator and he's incredible at communicating because he's learned to be that way because of various

things he's been through. And I just realized now that that's so wonderful just being able to have a conversation that is straightforward and isn't playing games. And my best friend Emma always knew this about me. She always said to me, I feel like you go for like flashy, unreliable media types and that's what you think you want. But actually, I think what you need, is an unexciting accountant who you're meeting for. And I was like, on him. She told me this in the wake of breakup. I was like, that was the most depressing thing I've ever heard.

Please don't say that. She's like, but what I mean is you think you need someone who pays you those compliments. You don't. You need someone who makes you feel so secure in their love. You don't need the compliment. And then I met Justin, and he's very far from a boring accountant. But he is in a sort of fintech, like, area.

And he is really straightforward. And Emma was like, you see? You found the person. Thank you, Emma. I hope she's making a speech at the wedding because, I mean, she was absolutely on point with that one. She's not only making your speech. She's also like taking the whole ceremony.

Well, good. She'll walk you up the aisle for that one. She's absolutely spot on. Anyway, that's what love means for me now. Oh, my God. I mean, honestly, this is the first episode. But I'm like, I do not think we're going to get any anecdote more beautiful than that. Like, honestly, like, I'm just,

genuinely so happy for you, Elizabeth. I know everyone listening to Orby because it's just, it's just, it's lovely and it's what we all deserve. And I think that like anyone, wherever stage of life there at can learn a great deal from that. I love the idea of two fully formed people coming together to not completely, just be their whole soul next to each other. It's like the scheme eating the shore, you see. It's like we're meeting at each other's needs. It's not like we're an entire landscape. We're looking for an entire landscape to be formed. We are already on. This is why you're right. Listen to that. This is why you're right up. But can I just say quickly, Yomi, I feel guilty about recommending Hinge because I haven't been on it now for like two years. And dating apps really change very quickly. Oh, it's changed. Once we finish recording and we find it get a drink post lockdown,

I will tell you exactly how it's changed. I mean, Hinge is Ghetto is the number one trend the other day. Like I think two weeks ago, Hinge is Ghetto was literally trending. It was just people's horror stories. And I was like, yep, seen that. in fact, seen this exact person actually. Yep, experienced this. So, yeah, like, you know, that being said,

I'm not going to lie. As I said, you are such a fantastic advert, but I still redunode it every few lockdown. So, you know, who knows? But yet, before we go, I have to ask you the hardest question of the whole episode, which is, if you had to choose one book from your list as your favourite, which one would it be and why?

I'm going to choose the Caslet Chronicles because there are four or four, them, which I know is a bit of a five of them actually. I know that's a bit of a cheat, but also because... It most is. Yeah, but I feel like I lose myself in those books and they would be really comforting in a situation where I don't have any other books. So I would choose either the whole set, if I can get them printed in like one book, would that be okay?

Or I'll choose the opening one of the Caslet Chronicles. You know what? I think I will allow it. I'll allow you to print the entire thing into one anthology. Thank you. Thank you, Elizabeth. Thank you for being you. Thank you for such a wonderful interview.

And I'm sorry we've run over slightly, but I was having a blast. I was too. I'm sorry for rambling on, but I just loved it so much. I love you and I love the questions. It's so much fun. I'm Yomiya Dega Kaye

and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast. Brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Head to our website wwwwomensprizefiction.com. Co. UK, where you can discover this year's 16 long-listed books covering both new, well-established writers and a wide range of genres. You definitely want to click subscribe because in our next episode,

we will be exploring five excellent books that shaped the incredible Chimamanda Mgozi Aditya. Please rate and review this podcast. It's the easiest way to help spread the word about the female talent you've heard about today. Thanks very much for listening and see you next time.