Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S3 Ep10: SHORTLIST BOOKCLUB SPECIAL: Transcendent Kingdom and Unsettled Ground

Episode Date: June 2, 2021

Candice Brathwaite, Michelle Elman and Caleb Azumah Nelson join Yomi to compare and contrast two books from this year's Women's Prize for Fiction shortlist, Yaa Gyasi’s Transcendent Kingdom and Unsettled Ground by Claire Fuller.   Michelle Elman is an author, speaker and life coach who’s the force behind the Scarred not Scared campaign, Candice Brathwaite is the author of The Joy of Being Selfish; a journalist, TV presenter and founder of Make Motherhood Diverse and Caleb Azumah Nelson is a writer and photographer whose recent debut Open Water is both a beautiful love story and a meditation on race and masculinity.   Listen as they delve into two of the incredible books from the 2021 Women’s Prize shortlist - in our very own book club where you can learn more about the six titles selected for this year’s prize.   Every week, join journalist and author Yomi Agedoke, and inspirational guests including Elizabeth Day, Sara Pascoe and Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie as they celebrate the best books written by women. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and has been running for over 25 years, and this series will offer unique access to the shortlisted authors and the 2021 Prize winner.      This podcast is produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Yomiya Degrake, your host for Season 3 of the Women's Prize Podcast. And this is one of three very special book club editions where we're exploring the 2021 Women's Prize Shortlist. Hello and welcome to this special edition of the Women's Prize podcast.

For today's book club, I'm joined by three amazing guests. Author, Speaker and Life Coach, Michelle Elman, who's the false behind the Scarred Not Scared, Not Scared, Campaign, and the author of The Joy of Being Selfish. Author, Journalist, TV presenter and founder of Make Motherhood Diverse, Candace Brathway. And topping off this list of incredibly talented people is Caleb Azuma Nelson, a writer and photographer,

whose recent debut, Open Water, is both a beautiful love story and a meditation on race and massacist. They're all here to discuss, compare and contrast two of the brilliant books from the Women's Prize Shortlist, our very own book club where you can learn more about the title selected for this year's prize and hopefully get reading some of them if you haven't already. This episode will be diving into Yagiasi's Transcendant Kingdom and Unsettled Ground by Claire Filler. Spoiler alert, if you have not read these books, we are going to be revealing some of the plot points and twists. Hi everybody. I hope that you guys are good today. How are you feeling Candice?

I am, I'm okay. I'm just okay. You know, I'm not going to do that. I'm so great. So, mad. Like, trying to come back into this work life and the world being slightly open, it's got me feeling a little bit anxious, if I'm honest. I can definitely relate to that. And Caleb? I think I'm about the same trying to like emerge back into the world while also still doing like book publicity is such a strange feeling and I'm just trying to enjoy it. Thank you and Michelle, how are you doing? I'm more on the overwhelmed end. A lot of my work disappeared in the pandemic and it all came back the moment the world opened

up so I'm juggling a lot of plates, that's not the phrase, juggling a lot of balls and trying to keep them up in the air and make sure nothing drops at the moment. Good. I mean, it's better I suppose to have more to do than absolutely nothing to do. I mean... Yes, after five months of boredom, I'm actually excited for it. Okay, so I want you guys to tell me about your experience reading these two books. Concurrently, what was your initial reaction to both?

And, Michelle, can you tell me how you felt? Yeah, so I definitely gravitated. more towards Transcendant Kingdom. I don't tend to read sad books. So I think Unsettled Ground was very hard for me to get into. But then about midway through the book, it kind of gets a rhythm. And then you're kind of in that world. You accept that it's a like sad world.

And then I really enjoyed the ending of it. But they were they were both books that I probably wouldn't have picked up myself. And that's why I found them so interesting. and both books really make you think about life and very existentially, or at least that's how I found I received both those books. Thank you. And how about you, Caleb? I was lucky enough to read Transcendant Kingdom last year. And so this time round was like kind of looking out the things I may have missed before.

I think I agree with Michelle like both novels are very existential and make you make you sort of think about who you are in your place and the world I really enjoyed unsettled ground in the world that it created and the world that it built and it's really immersive.

I think with Transcending Kingdom is a much more like personal sort of read because of the like the characters all have this Garnayan heritage that I share and so I was really interested in that and looking out for things that I could relate to. Thank you. Candice, reading the books at the same time,

did you feel like they felt removed from each other? Or did you feel like there were, you know, shared themes and that they spoke to each other at all? I do feel like they definitely had shared themes because it's really not their selling point, or it doesn't seem so, but the theme of motherhood really comes out strongly and also how mothers deal with,

their lives and like the lies they may tell or the way they want to protect their lives or the way they want to protect their children. I felt that really strongly from both books, even though, and I was so shocked to find this, I gravitated more towards unsettled ground because like Caleb was saying, well, my partner is Nigerian, there was just so many similarities that I was expecting in Transcendant Kingdom. So none of it felt new to me. And at times, actually some of it felt quite triggering especially the elements around church and the Bible and like having to position yourself to be this uber perfect Christian all the time I was like oh my god triggered whereas unsettled ground is written so well it was almost like being in two different worlds at the

same time because if it wasn't for moments like say Julius pulling out his mobile phone unsettled ground really does start in a way where you think like what well what era am I reading like what age is this book set in? It was done really, really well and I was really pleasantly surprised with Unsettled Ground. Love Transcendent Kingdom. I just feel like I know so many of the themes so well but like you were saying that is not the point of the question. Yes, they mirror each other very well when it comes to the difficulties that can arise just trying to be the best mother in the circumstances that you find yourself. Thank you, Candies.

And our first book that we will be discussing is actually Transcendant Kingdom by Yar Giyasi. Caleb, sorry to pick on you, could you briefly, because you have the least hesitation, I think, in turn to frowning it up. So could you please briefly explain what this book is about to our listeners? Yes, so Transcendent Kingdom tells the story of Gifty in the first person. She is exploring her family history, a group of four. So her mum, her dad and her brother who moved from Ghana to Alabama to the South of America and really explores the loss that the family has endured their family.

father moved back to Ghana and you quickly found out that her brother developed an opioid addiction and also passed away after an injury. And it really is just her and her mom who is suffering from depression while Gifty is really trying to work through her own ambition. She's a scientist and is trying to explore addiction more from a science-based point of view and in turn trying to understand her brother and where that loss emerged from. Thank you, Michelle. How did you feel about Transcendent Kingdom? I kept forgetting this wasn't a memoir.

Like, especially in the beginning, I had to actually keep reminding myself that this is a fiction story because it was just so well written that I felt really absorbed into it. I think for me, it was, you know what, it really reminded me of this quote from The Fault in Our Stars that I think has always stayed in my mind because I really relate to it, where the main character is going through illness, and she says that she compares herself to a grenade

and that at some point she's going to blow up and she wants to minimise the casualties around her. And it was almost like that, but with addiction, it was like the aftershock of how addiction impacts all the people surrounding that person who is the addict. And I thought the metaphor of the mouse was really, really interesting and how it's almost like that wounded mouse and I kept feeling for that wounded mouse and the jumps between the relationship with her mum and the conversations of religion

and then just seeing a woman in STEM was amazing. I just felt so many things while I was reading it. Thank you and Candice you've already kind of touched on the fact that you felt it was in many ways triggering but I'd be yeah I'd be interested to sort of hear more about the other themes that potentially might have you might have felt were triggering or sort of um you know really personally resonated um definitely across the board the theme of addiction addiction has been really prevalent in my family so seeing that played out was yet unsettling but also true but um to see it played out against this backdrop right of this black boy who is only held in high regard for his sporting ability and like the minute he doesn't want to do that in one sense or the minute that

injury means he cannot do that how he kind of just falls by the wayside um i've read this book twice now and the first time i was very much like um you didn't give me what you were supposed to give and then re-reading it the second time. I was actually, no, you weren't seeing what you were supposed to see. Because when you do read it with a kinder eye and a wider field of vision, there are so many undercurrents to the story. It's like, yes, there's the immigrant theme, but it's also highlighting and telling the story,

a story that I don't think is told enough, of the black women usually left to shoulder the brunt of such an immigrant story. Like I don't know. I've lost count of the amount of families I know that I held up by a woman where the man has just been like, I want to go back to my home country or this isn't working or I'm now going to go off and find five wives. I don't see that a lot.

And to see like Gifty's mum portrayed in that way and for it was like watching a Jenga building go up and you're thinking at what moment is this going to come crashing down. And I think there was a silent understanding that I've forgotten his name, but her brother's character, Nana, that Nana was going to save the day, right? Because that's the expectation. Black, good at athletics, he's going to come through.

And when he succumbs to his addiction, I'm just like, oh, M-G, like, where do we go from here? And to watch Gifty's mum, in my opinion, quote-unquote, waste away. Yeah, it was very deep. See, I'm just getting carried away with the story now. But we're loving it. That's the thing. We're loving it.

So did you guys connect to any of the characters in particular? And also, were there any characters that you weren't really vibing with? And I'm going to take this question to Michelle. I think I related most to Gifty. And I'm a life coach and I find it very hard to separate that part of my brain. And the word that comes to mind is parentification when you're forced to be a parent too young. And whilst I didn't really have that, I definitely felt like, because of my my own medical trauma, I had to grow up too young. And I kind of, my heart was just like,

when she was in uni, I was like, you're meant to be having a uni experience. And you're just so, you're so wise for your age, but in a way that's like, you should be able to be fun right now. And because you have so many, I don't want to say burdens, but so many things going on in your life, you don't get that freedom to be free and to be a child. and to be a teenager who's just enjoying their uni experience, that all of that childhood almost got taken away from her. Thank you. And Caleb? I would say it was between Nana and Gifty,

Nana more so because I share some of that history. I used to play a lot of basketball and had a very similar injury and also had to take like really extreme painkillers for about a month before you're told you can't take those anymore. And seeing what kind of effect like having constant pain has on the people around you. And watching what your parents or in particular my mother had to do in order to keep our family going and together. But then also with Gifty, I think there was this, you know, there was this responsibility that was placed on her that I recognize as like an oldest child in a large family whereby she just had to grow up, she had to be older, she had to keep it together.

And I think it's only later in her in her life, is she able to kind of like try and unpick that life and try and find answers to these questions, like why did this happen to her? why did this happen to their family? Thank you so much. And Candice, what characters did you resonate with or not resonate with? I think across the board, all three of them, in my real day-to-day life, I am a mother, so I can completely empathise with Gifty's mother's experience. When it comes to Nana, so it's a combination with Nanna and Gifty because I am the eldest child,

but I am the eldest, I'm the eldest child and I'm a daughter and I'm black. like there are levels to that. And I find when you are the eldest black daughter, the expectation for you to keep everyone afloat or everything swimming along nicely is really, really high. And that fell on Nana's and Gifty shoulders at different points. And there was actually, this is really strange. Yes, he succumbed to his addiction.

And I know it's meant to be sad. There was like a soft exhale when Nana did actually die. because I was like there is a freedom in that no one wants to die young but also the weight of expectation in that character's day to day life that can become a lot

and who's to say if that story went a different way maybe he did end up being that basketball player or whatever the expectation on Nana to hold it down for his mum and in some ways for Gifty would have been unreal and maybe would have forced him into an addiction of a different sort at a different time. It's mad to say that, but my mind

just thinks that way. I actually very much understand what you're saying and in many ways, I think I agree. How did you feel about this book's portrayal of motherhood and family in particular as a mother candy's? I thought it was really honest and it's not something you get to see in fiction a lot. We're seeing it more in nonfiction, but in fiction you don't get to see it a lot um yeah i thought it was honest i thought it was raw that didn't make it any less sad because it's like in many unspoken ways how much it and in spoken ways how much did gifty's mum have to give up in order to um hold it down quote unquote while dad's like swaned off to go and live his best life back home do you know what i mean so i'm i i think that it was a really

honest portrayal. Even though it is fiction, I can't say that any of that is pretend because I've seen that in many families. Thank you. What did you and this you is Caleb think of gift these mum's expectations on her kids and I suppose how do you feel that they compare to like the stereotypical perceptions of what immigrant parents are and what they expect? It's so like I've been thinking more and more about this idea of expectations that immigrant parents have on their children. I think in the book it was really realistic. It was like very honest.

Like parents want their children to make something of themselves to become something that they can hold, that's stable, that will like last. Because so often parents have moved from one place to another and tried to make a home and have really, struggled. And I know that it comes from a place of love, right? It comes from, like, I, from a parent saying, I want you to be okay. Like, I don't know how long I will be here and present for you. So I want you to be okay if you can, if you were on your own. But so often, as in the book, it can manifest in very

like, warped ways and kind of quite destructive ways. And it gets to the point where the relationship between parent and child really begins to suffer. So I just want to quickly take it back to what Candice was saying about Nana's, you know, the conclusion to Nana's story. And I'm interested in whether the rest of you think that there was a sense of, I suppose, inevitability about Nana's story, whether it was just, you know, I mean, I suppose just a sense of sadness. Michelle, what do you think?

I think she's really right. That's exactly what I thought as well. and that there's a lot of guilt when someone dies, when you do feel that sense of relief, because it's not supposedly the appropriate reaction. But a lot of people, whether that person's going through illness or just so much mental suffering, that at least they've found peace

or even personally, the person who has to deal with that addiction, well, at least I don't have to deal with it. And I think it's okay to have those feelings. at the same time as missing and grieving a loved one, that grief involves all emotions. And I think that's what was portrayed in this, was that it was almost left unsaid, but it was there that actually it was kind of easier in a way,

not easier. That's probably not the right way to, I mean, talking about grief is always quite clumsy, but it's like we have such a narrow vision of grief usually that I thought this book brought the different elements to it and that it's okay if you don't have perfect grief, if that even is a thing. Absolutely agree.

And how about you, Caleb? I think that portrayal of the addiction and kind of leading towards like Nana's eventual death, it was really sad and very heartbreaking because it felt inevitable, both in terms of the narrative and also receiving that as a reader. and I did wonder whether I was like

there's a sense of peace on the other side of that but what then happens to the people who are left behind what happens to Gifty and her mother and you see how that survival begins to manifest as Gifty sorts of goes on this journey in which she dedicates her life to looking at addiction

in order to find some sort of answer some sort of peace Thank you. So I'm not sure how much any of you had sort of read about the opioid addiction crisis in America prior to reading the book, but I'm interested in how you felt the book highlighted and sort of portrayed it

specifically through Nana's addiction. Candice, I know you sort of touched on that already, but I just like to hear you speak about it further. Yeah, I don't think the... I don't think it really went into depth around how crippling opioid addiction was at that time and in a lot of ways still is

we just don't hear about it but that's a different story and maybe that was the point of the book because we have got far too good and in another way bad at lumping all addicts together and so I think there was a point to not really ham up how bad opioid addiction

was at the time because it's like Gifty saying no we have to take Nana's story for what it is. And Gifty is telling us this story through her eyes and looking solely at her brother. And so I would think that

maybe really going into depth about what the opioid crisis was like at the time might have taken away from us really deeping Nana's story on its own. So I don't think it did, I want to sit here and be like, oh, it didn't do a very good job

at educating us, but that's not the point of the story, you know? And I think that that decision was made with good intent. Thank you so much. And what do you think, Michelle? I think it gives the human element, because any time, even the phrasing of opioid crisis, you almost dehumanize it by that term. And so taking one person's story of being affected by it just adds that more human element. And anytime I've heard anyone talk about the opioid crisis, it's this, message of, but they should have had more willpower or like the implication of it. They might not say that exactly, but like, well, why didn't you just take the recommended dose? Why did you, you knew you

were taking more when it's not so much about personal responsibility when these drugs are designed to have that reaction within your brain. And so I think when you put so much personal responsibility. There's so much shame around it and there's so much, the person who is going through it feels like they aren't good enough because they can't resist something that's quite chemical, but then also the people around it, even the shame around addiction in general. And I think that whilst it wasn't talked about directly, it does put all these thoughts in your brain about all the things that you've heard versus what it actually is like when a person is. going through it. And it's bringing it back down to that individual element as opposed to thinking

about it as like a societal issue. Thank you so much. Another theme that the book touches on is, or at least represents, is masculinity. And, you know, the sort of, I suppose, different expectations of manhood in Ghana versus Alabama. And I'm interested in how you guys felt reading that and what your thoughts were on those representations. Let's start with you, Caleb. It was, it was so interesting seeing this, this very specific Garnayan man in the father figure who I know and recognised because that could have been one of my uncles in that way in which a man will happily just be like, this isn't working out, I'm going to go back home. to where I'm more comfortable and will leave his family,

his family behind and we'll just make that decision on his own, in his own sort of stead and not think about the consequences of that. I think so often in relation to like thinking about Gifty's mother, like her choice was removed there, but her choice was always her children. It was her family, whereas the father figure was kind of thinking more of himself. In his absence, Nana then kind of took on that helm in a sense and really absolved all of that pressure. And it becomes difficult when you think about,

when you think about how that works within like a systemic sort of way, that that sort of pressure that comes from the first decision that all of the family made to move from Ghana to Alabama to make something better of themselves. to the decision to then for the father figure to go back and be like, I actually, I can't do this. From Nana kind of being like, okay, well, this is now, this is now my responsibility to hold.

It made me really think, like, what are these roles that are placed upon both men and women? Like, what system are we working? And that means that men and women take on these roles and then so often fail them in the case of men because they kind of assume, okay, well, you know, this is my responsibility. responsibility to bear. This is my thing to hold up onto. And so often they can't. It's too much,

but only because we're thinking, they and me included are thinking of masculinity as this very narrow thing and this very kind of like specific gender thing where we need to rethink the family structure as a whole. Definitely. This book definitely is one that makes you think deeply, I think. Candice, when you sort of spoke to the idea, especially of, you know, within African culture, or specifically within our community, often of men deciding that if something's not working out, you know, they essentially take it upon themselves often to remove themselves from the situation. And as Caleb mentioned, remove the choice of the women in their lives. How did you feel when reading those representations of masculinity, especially as somebody who's, you know, you've, as you mentioned, seen that in real life. I felt, I felt sad that that's still, um, in, in a lot of ways, our truth, right? Yeah, you know, the media works hard to erase, um, black nuclear families and,

but also there are many black men who erase themselves. That's still a thing. There are many men across the board of race who are raised themselves. I found it really in my mind, I found it interesting and I'm having to do this in my real life to understand that actually the most masculine character in that book was Gifty's mum facts she absolutely again like tried to keep everything up and in order and present as this person that if we're looking at society standards would be the masculine person in the framework of that story and then to see moments between say Nana and Gifty's mum like when Gifty's

mom literally had to bathe nana when he was like a teen well old enough to wash himself i'm like there were such blurred lines between the masculine and the feminine and again i think that's done with purpose because it's like can we continue to use this very archaic example of what is masculinity and what is femininity i just don't think it's going to fly anymore and so to see gifty's mom represented as the most masculine one made a lot of sense to me because again it just represents what I see a lot of in my community but also then left room for me personally to think about how do I allow the men in my life to come across as feminine could I care for a male in the way that Gifty's mum cared for Nana regardless of me being the mother right it's like are we

giving men that room to come across as feminine in the sense of needing help depending on admitting weakness or there was even like I'm saying seen like it's a film but there was even a moment in there where you know Nana's on the bus and he's like like I do not want to do this anymore like that's that's very that is what's positioned as very feminine energy you know saying like I've had enough I can't do I quit so to speak we don't get to see that a lot so I think there was a lot of role reversal and there were very smart plays on what can be defined as masculine or feminine. Thank you so much, Candice. And Michelle, what did you come away thinking of in terms of the representation of masculinity and, you know, especially Ghanaian masculinity compared to

the masculinity of, you know, men in Alabama? Yeah, I think for me it was the, it was how, um, she treated her two children differently and the comparison between a daughter versus a son and how that was difference. And I don't know whether I have any conclusions around it other than it did make me question whether it was the other way around and Gifty was the one with the addiction, that would it have been treated differently or responded to differently? And I also thought the relationship Gifty had with her father versus her father. relationship with Nana was also interesting. Absolutely. And did you guys have any thoughts in terms of emasculization or being emasculated rather? Because when I think of Nana's dad and, you know, his initial sort of

treatment in the States, I do, there's often talk just generally about black men being emasculated as they move throughout society. And I'm interested in if anyone has to be anyone had any thoughts regarding that. Let me take that to Candice. Do you know what? I'm here with my head on my hand. Because that's so common, I didn't even pick up on it. That's not even something I thought about. And now that I've heard you say that, I'm just like, oh my God, yeah, but it's so common, especially in the things that we see and the stories and not just stories in the way the US police brutalize black men. That is such a. And that is such a a continuous theme that I didn't even clock that it was in the book. And it pains me to now be

sitting here and be like, that's so common I didn't clock that. But yes, of course. Of course the minute you are, well in this case, yes, we know they left, but the minute we and they as in the black man is taken from the place where they are deemed as the majority and the king, there's a constant rollout of that happening. Because it's like we are here to remind you that in our space, you are not the in-ting. What you say doesn't matter and we're not going to respect you as a man, especially not in front of your family. But I didn't even think about that. This podcast is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish Cream. Bayleys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women,

celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Babies is the perfect adult treat, whether in coffee, over ice cream or paired with your favourite book. Enjoying the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast? Share the literary love and be part of the future of the Women's Price Trust by making a one-off donation to support our important workers to charity. Donations of all sizes help us to continue empowering women, regardless of their age, race, nationality or background to raise their voice and own their story. Search for Support the Women's Prize to find out more. You're listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, a special edition discussing the 2021 Women's Prize shortlist.

Our second book is Unsettled Ground by Claire Filler. Candice, I'm picking on you this time. Could you give us a wonderfully eloquent summary of the book? Because I know you're going to do it. How can I do this? So we are focused on twins, Genie, I think I'm saying her name,

that's how I was saying, Genie and Julius. And they are 51 years old and they still live with their mum, Dot. And Dot then just one day just drops down dead. So imagine you're 51 years old, you're still moving in your mind, like you're,

they come like they're 11, 12 sometimes. And then this woman drops dead. And then we start to see that the world dot has created in this cottage, in this space is totally different to the outside world, not just because of like they're really poor, they're very, very poor and everything feels archaic and old school, but also because Dot is a big bad man liar and I'm furious.

Oh my God, Candice. Didn't I say? I knew you were going to body it. I'm like that sounds like EastEnders. Like, what a sell. All right. So guys, let's get talking about unsettled ground. How did you feel about this book, Michelle? Well, I think it's a very sad story. I thought it was interesting because it's not an age group that I read about a lot. I guess I must be reading too many books that are in my age range. And as Caleb mentioned earlier, you almost don't know which area you're reading in until the mention of a mobile phone. And I thought it was a story of extreme codependency to the point of enmeshment where they almost can't separate themselves out as three individuals

and you just get left with a really sad feeling of like almost not even two unlived lives like three unlived lives and almost like as a warning to like don't just stay in your comfort zone because this is what happens if you get so scared by the world that you don't actually venture into it. Thank you so much. Now, I'd really, really like to talk about this book's theme and portrayal of motherhood and family. Because, I mean, as per Candice's excellent description, it really is quite something.

And it's quite, I mean, I want to hear from you guys. So, Caleb, how do you feel this book portrayed motherhood and family? It was like, immediately I could really see the author's description. and understanding of what a mother would do to protect her children or what a mother would think is the right way to protect their children. Right at the beginning of the novel, Dot just dropped dead. And in a way, her death is really, she still stays with both Julius and Genie in very, in like very real and very visceral ways.

they continue to try and keep up with this routine. They continue to try and stay indoors. And in a sense, just continue to try and live on as they have been taught by her. And after her death, they, you know, it's only been the three of them, but they draw even closer because it is now just each other that they have. But you begin to see these cracks as one of them might wonder. wander off to go and go to the parboard to go and Judas goes to see someone or when Jeannie is off kind of like in the shops or in the village you begin to see the cracks in their relationship as they're

exploring these lives that they may have had if they were allowed to emerge from this this sort of safety bubble. Thank you and something that um you actually just said Caleb um i'd really like to speak to you, Candice, about it, which is, you know, it very much looks at not just the lengths a mother would go to to protect her children's, but her children, but the lengths a mother might think they should go to, potentially mistakenly, potentially leading to them being a bad boy liar, Candice. What do you think of that? Because I think in both books, at least with the mother's, mistakes have definitely in some ways potentially been made. in this book I'd say very visibly.

And I think it's quite interesting to see that nuance of, you know, seeing mothers that would do anything for their children and for their families, but, you know, kind of, I suppose, challenging the idea of like perfect motherhood and having to get it all right all the time. What were your thoughts on that? Do you know what? This book perfectly outlines when self-sacrifice is coming but because of shame. if Dot had

I hate these quotes but if Dot had like lived her best life or honoured her truest self a lot of these lies wouldn't have unraveled because you would have had conviction in who you loved

you would have had conviction in telling the truth about the way in which the father died so much of it so this is where the parallels in these two books come for me it's like okay we have to keep our back straight

and keep the show up because of shame being the shame of the village or the shame of the church. And dots one though, it was like borderline insanity because in so many ways, especially when it came to, I think her name's Jeannie, especially when it came to Jeannie's life, I felt so sorry for Jeannie because we get to the end and I'm just like, you've lived a life of protection and hiding for absolutely no reason at all. And very quickly, and again,

this is another similarity with these two books in my opinion, very quickly, I saw a a very strong masculine essence come through with Jeannie, even though she thinks she's too sick, even though she can't read or write, there were still quiet moments of her holding it down in a way that Julius just could not manage. And I was like, like, how unfair is this? Because you are actually the twin that would have gone clear if you had been given the liberty to do so, or if you hadn't thought that you were too fragile to go out and live a different life. And so this version of motherhood really upset me and disturbed me because this is the version of motherhood that then cuts everyone else's life short, right? Because you're telling these lies to like try and make yourself look perfect, but then your own children don't get to live their lives.

Really quite sad and quite dark. I could speak about it for hours, to be honest. Absolutely. And I think another parallel is definitely one person's death. sort of shattering an entire family unit in a very specific way that makes it feel like, you know, after, I think it might have been Yun Kandi saying that after Dot's death, the twins very much carried her around with them. And that's the same thing, I think, with Transcendant Kingdom, the idea that after Nana's death, you could feel that weight very heavily with the rest of the family. What do you think about that idea, Michelle? I think it's this idea that we have this conception that you move on from a death, that you move on with a death, and you never really let go of that grief because that love for a person

is now connected to grief. So anytime you're recalling or remembering anything about that person, that the love comes up, but the grief comes up as well. And I just thought, especially in this book, it demonstrates something that I'd been thinking about a lot, like I've had a lot of loved ones experience grief this year. And the one thing that I didn't know because I hadn't gone through grief personally was like the admin of death, that how much work you have to do after someone dies.

And especially when you can found that in this book with poverty and how like you don't even have enough money to bury someone or bury someone in the way you'd want to bury them. And just small things like she's not cashing the checks, because she doesn't have a bank account, that you, can you imagine the enormity of the admin of death, but then on top of the money worries of not actually being able to do any of those things?

And then because she's been enmeshed with her mother so much, she almost is still acting like a child in that she can't take on all of these responsibilities and she's now feeling all these big feelings, very adult feelings, but doesn't almost have the mind to keep up with it. So this is quite a big question

and I'm very interested to hear what everyone has to say. Dots lies and her actions, which are obviously in many ways destructive. Do you guys at all understand why she did what she did? Or do you just entirely think it was madness and that she should be cancelled. Let's give that to Caleb. I'm still trying to understand her actions and really trying to work out like how I feel about

the kind of like various lies that she told to begin to unravel throughout the novel. I think, you know, I can understand perhaps why, like, kind of being so consumed by the grief of her husband that it, like, the only kind of logical thing for her to do was to protect what she had left. And to really kind of like say, like, yo, this is this space that we're in. this space is safe. And if you venture out of that, then you don't know what's going to be on the other side of that. You see that in a couple of instances where Julius is sort of, at the beginnings of some sort of potential relationship with a woman,

and Dot kind of will make like a little, there's a recollection of a little comment that Dot will make and suddenly that idea of a relationship is no more. Julius is then back inside, back in the same. back in the bubble. So yeah, I do think that it was it was primarily an action that emerged from from grief and wanting to keep her children safe. But I also think, you know, at 51 years old, like it's a whole life that these two people,

these twins have not been allowed to lead. Thank you so much. And Michelle, any empathy and understanding regarding doc's actions on your part. Yeah, so I can't, again, I can't switch off my life coach brain, but the thing that came to mind was the Montchalcans, which is, it's called Montchalcans by proxy, which is when you make up an illness for someone you are a caregiver for.

And I read a book when I was, like, I think I was way too young to read this book, but I was 15 called Sickened, which is actually a memoir of a child whose mother sent her through so much medical tests for nothing because she just was so convinced she was ill. And it is a mental diagnosis. So I guess I had sympathy in the fact that she herself was clearly very ill.

And I mean, if you want to remove the diagnosis, then it's just driven by fear, right? It's about keeping them safe. And so it's kind of that question of how much is good intentions making up for the consequences of those good intentions, which frankly, as Caleb said, with that many years of life lost, I don't think good intentions really makes up for that. And the amount of anger that would come with that realization that all of this was a lie,

I don't think you could ever really resolve that. Thank you so much, Michelle. Candice dying to hear what you think. You know what? I think everyone be shocked. I've got major empathy for. it. And again, that's maybe like the cost of my therapist speaking. But you know that old thing, you do better when you know better. Dot died not knowing any better and probably like

smothered by fear at that point. I do, so I do have great empathy for the choices she made. It just doesn't take away from, I got, because I got to the end of that book thinking, do you know how many lives we've actually lost? So Julius is short. and like a shadow of his former self. It's his name Rawson, like the true love of Dot's life. He's lost the love of his life. So we could say that's a write-off also.

We don't really know if Jeannie's going to like get even a quarter of her life back on track. So I'm like there have been more losses than just like, oh, people have died. And it's that for me. I'm just like as empathetic as I feel towards. Dutch choices, it was grossly selfish. Grossly selfish. And I mean 51. Demand are still soon in the queue for the pension, you know?

You can't even make the thought. No, I cannot. No, it's true. Even if life begins up 40, they're 10 years old already. 11. So, fair enough. I hear that. Okay, so we're finishing up, guys.

This has been fascinating. And we're just going to sort of look a little bit more at the wide. a theme of motherhood across both books. So we've coupled these titles together under the theme of motherhood. Do you sort of agree with it as a pairing and sort of see that synergy? And if so, why? And I want to ask Michelle. You know what, unless, if I'm being honest, if it wasn't told to me as under both these themes, I'm not sure I would have put it under both these themes. And I don't know whether it's because I'm not a mother. And so I don't see, do you know what I mean?

I don't see motherhood as a theme. I think for me, if I were to pair them, it's more about disentangling you from another person. I think this enmeshment thing, this parentification thing, that both families weren't very good at separating one person's emotions from another, came across. And I think if I had to draw a parallel, it was,

and I guess this is a motherhood thing, but that everyone's growing up at the same time and sometimes when you're a child, you don't realize your parents are growing up to at the same time. And so don't always know all the answers and aren't doing... The theme in my head

is people trying to do their best, but not doing their best. I think that actually, yeah, that and codependency, absolutely. I think there's as strong, contenders as motherhood is. Candice, as a mother, do you agree with this pairing and if so why? Yeah, I do agree with it, but I think you'd have to be a mother to see it. So that's where the awkwardness comes in because I think on the face of both books, it's like death and the unraveling

that happens from that. And then I would say that in my opinion, mothering feels secondary. but then even so, I wouldn't really say mothering if I perhaps didn't have kids of my own and so then that thing becomes really clear to me but once you start to dissect and have a conversation like this I would say you could pair the two books together. Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you so much.

And Caleb, would you say any of the books changed your opinion on anything? Is there anything you feel differently about now than compared to before you'd read it? I think reading Transcendent Kingdom, there was more of an understanding of the people that my parents were and are and could be as well. I think it kind of like, as I grow older, I'm always trying to afford my parents like a humanity and sort of, and parents in general, especially as especially that kind of immigrant parents who have come from somewhere to make a home elsewhere. And so I think, yeah, because of the nuances of this story and even how sad and heartbreaking it was at times, like I was like, there's a humanity here that like I'm on a steady journey of and transcendent kingdom only added to that. Thank you so much, guys. It has been such a great chat.

And I have one last question for each of you, which is do you have a book that you'd recommend on the theme of motherhood? And if so, why, Michelle? So it would be the book you wish your parents had read by Philippa Perry. And I've never read a parenting nonfiction book, but that was the first one that I came across and everyone kept telling me you should read this book, whether you're a mother or not. And the part that revolutionized thinking about your relationship with your parents and not just with kids is that you are a reflection of your parents at the age they are bringing you up. So if you've ever felt a disconnection from your parents at late age five,

it's largely because they felt a disconnection from their parents at age five. And I just thought that was a really amazing idea. And I've never stopped being able to think about, like I keep thinking about it and going back to that idea just when I'm doing general life coaching. So I just thought it was a great book. Sounds fascinating. Candice, what book would you recommend on the theme of motherhood and wife? A book that I stumbled across.

thrillers aren't usually my thing, but it's called The Push by Ashley Ordrain. And basically we are taken down quite a dark road when a woman gives birth to a daughter that she knows from the very beginning is evil. Yeah, I'll just leave it there. Like, I am wagging for book three, four and five because the way she finished it off, I was like, girl, hit me with the second book. Oh my God. Like so lit and that she's done her job perfectly because it is.

thrilling and it does as a mother make me think or actually have to admit that yeah you would recognize that you would know that so it's just it made it put knots in my stomach and it's not a hard read either I do want to take this chance to remind people that you don't have to find a book difficult to read to call yourself a reader. Not because I hate that's not tell them unless you're reading something where you need a sosaurus by you, like you're not really doing it. Like, it's not every day put that pressure. And this book is an easy read and we love it easy read.

We love an easy, boozy, beechy read. And honestly, I could not agree more. I like to understand what I'm reading. Caleb, finally, what book would you recommend? I would recommend what we lose by Zindy Clements, which is a book that I read like probably once a year. It's about a woman named Fandi, who is from South Africa and has moved to America with her mother who is slowly dying.

And it's told in these really short, sharp fragments that sometimes read more like memoir than fiction, but in that way is really raw and very visceral and presents this kind of like really vulnerable and intimate portrait of a mother and a daughter kind of spending time together at the end of the mother's life. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Caleb, and thank you all three for being such brilliant panellist for the show. Cheers, guys. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I'm Yomiya Degger Kay, and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Head to our website www.women'spriseforfiction.com.com. where you can discover this year's shortlist of six incredible books. You definitely want to click subscribe because in our next episode, we'll be speaking with Outspoken MP, Jess Phillips, and discovering a five books that have shaped her. Please rate and review this podcast. It's the easiest way to help spread the word

about the female talent you've heard about today. Thanks very much for listening and see you next time.