Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S3 Ep3: Bookshelfie: Sara Pascoe

Episode Date: April 14, 2021

No-one devours books like Sara Pascoe - on this week’s Bookshelfie she tells Yomi how reading novels you might disagree is a good antidote to an increasingly polarised world.  Sara is a comedian, writer, actor, podcaster and presenter whose extensive TV credits include regular appearances on panel shows like Mock the Week, QI and Have I Got News for You, alongside numerous other TV and radio programmes. She’s also the author of two books exploring gender in the twenty first century - Animals, and her latest book Sex, Power and Money, a Sunday Times Bestseller which is also a hit podcast exploring the realities of sex work, stripping and porn. Plus, Sara was on the judging panel for the Women’s Prize in 2017.  Sara’s book choices are:  ** The Magic Faraway Tree by Enid Blyton ** I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou ** The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand  ** Under the Net by Iris Murdoch ** Your Voice in My Head by Emma Forrest   Every week, join journalist and author Yomi Agedoke, and inspirational guests, including Elizabeth Day, Sara Pascoe and Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie as they celebrate the best books written by women. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and has been running for over 25 years, and this series will offer unique access to the shortlisted authors and the 2021 Prize winner.  This podcast is produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

With thanks to Bayleys, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Yomia Degra Kay, your host for Season 3 of the Women's Prize podcast. We have a phenomenal lineup of guests for 2021, and I guarantee you will be taking away plenty of reading recommendations. Each bookshelfy episode, we ask an inspiring woman to share the story of her life, through five different books by women.

Hello and welcome to today's episode of Bookshelfy. I'm Yomi Adego-Kay and I'm absolutely thrilled to be joining you as your new host for Series 3, while I'll be lucky enough to be interviewing some incredible women about the work of other incredible women. Let me start by reminding you that this year's long list is out and the 16 brilliant authors and their books can all be found on our website, Women's Prize for Fiction.com. We are still practicing safe social distancing and this podcast is being recorded remotely.

Today's guest is the brilliant comedian, writer, actor, podcaster and presenter Sarah Pascoe. I'm personally super excited as someone who's been watching Sarah's incredible trajectory on various different screens, whether that's been scrolling her Instagram or watching Last Women on Earth, her latest BBC show which sees her travel the world in search of the world's most endangered jobs. Sarah is a hugely successful of stand-up comedian whose extensive TV credits include regular appearances on panel shows like Mock the Week, QI and Have I Got News for You alongside numerous other TV and radio programs.

She rose and performed the BBC Radio 4 series, Modern Monkey, and in 2020, created and starred in out of her mind, a loosely autobiographical six-part BBC 2 comedy series which cleverly explores heartbreak, family and how to survive them. If that didn't keep her busy enough already, Sarah's also found time to write two books exploring gender in the 21st century, Animals and her latest book, Sex, Money and Power, a Sunday Times bestseller, which also is a hit podcast

exploring the realities of sex work, stripping and porn. Plus, Sarah was on the judging panel with a women's prize in 2017. The year Naomi Alderman's The Power was chosen as the winner. I'm personally struggling to work out how you've had time to catch up me today amongst all the other incredible things that you're doing but i'm absolutely thrilled that you have sarah so welcome to the podcast how are you doing today i'm really excited to be here number one um i love you and what you're doing in the world and you're writing and i love books so this is a dream for me oh my god a real loving i know that if i start i'm not going to stop the gushing but yeah i'm a

huge fan you are hilarious and super smart and i mean clearly very well read because some of the books here. I'm like, wow, this is going to be a very interesting chat. So yeah, I'm very, very excited and also love you. So yeah, I can't wait to get started. Me too. I do like this kind of habit as well that people have sort of picked up of just telling people that they've never actually met that they love them and truly meaning it. Yeah, but maybe that's one of the really positives about social media. We should remember that is it sometimes now it feels like you know people or familiar with them in a different way rather than just, oh, that person I know what their work is. feel a bit more like, and I've seen them with their friends and I've seen them and they're in a bad mood

and I know what they hate. Exactly. So, Sarah, have you always been a big reader? Yes. And I, I think about it. My husband doesn't read very much and quite often he looks at reading as something kind of very virtuous, very noble habits. But for me, it's just like him playing FIFA. Like, it's just, you know, pleasure. And as a child, I loved reading. And I was never, made to read. I always wanted to read. And I think that's the key with children is that you can really put them off things like playing instruments, for instance, if you enforce it on them. And no one ever said to me like, Sarah, here's a book. It was much more like, Sarah, get your head out of that book. It was much more that. So it always felt like it was something that was mine out of choice.

And what about you? Oh, God. I think I'm your, like your husband. Are you on feet? For all days. It's actually quite embarrassing, to be honest, that I personally find it. The way that I see reading is this, again, virtuous, massively cerebral hobby. As somebody who has written books, I still definitely placed it on a certain pedestal. And when I was lucky enough to be offered this gig, I was like, great, a reason to read. Like, now I can actually read books. And yeah, I've been sent in people's bookshelfies and just been frankly amazed at how many incredible books by women, by anyone else really, have just alluded me that my entire 29 years so I'm hoping but off the back of this gets slightly better at it yeah that's it yeah that's

it you've got plenty of time I think sometimes that can really help being pointed in the direction of like books you will enjoy because if you just you know walk into a bookshop or just go on a book selling website you might just go oh my god there's so much and what if it's because we've all had that experience of starting a book and then going oh my god do I have to finish this um so many descriptions of fields um like how am I going to get through to the end and then you just don't read for a year because it's so off-putting. So it is good to like hear what other people have enjoyed. Absolutely. So as somebody who loves books and reading, you must have been in your element when it was your turn to judge the women's prize. How was that for you? Well, I was on I wasn't actually

because I did. So the reason I said yes was they said, they basically said, we're going to send you 200 books. You'll get them in like four boxes to your house through the months. And that was incredibly exciting the idea of free books. And then they said, and then what will happen is you'll meet up every six weeks or so and there'll be wine and food and you'll talk and it just sounded like the best book group ever, the idea to kind of be meeting new people and some of them were authors themselves. And yeah, and that's what it was. Just like long evenings arguing about literature. But so here's the other side. I hadn't really thought about the elements of it being a competition and it's really, really hard.

And I would say this to anyone listening who's in any form of the arts or creativity, competitions are so strange because you really are kind of discussing the worth of things that are so different from each other that it felt very arbitrary. But having to choose a winner, having to like get a long list down to a shorter list, even things like that, I just found all of it really painful. Like, because I knew because of how long it had taken me to write a book and what a precious process that had been the idea of all of these books going on to the no pile like really it really hurt me like the authors could feel it or something so so that's what I would say I wouldn't actually

ever judge a competition again it's really made me understand competitions a bit more and and the discussion that happens in the room that's so interesting especially because you know taste is so subjective and as you said arbitrary so it really must be difficult to try and sort of I don't know argue an author's case against another's and work out who's is, you know, technically better on what basis? It's very difficult. I don't envy. And I mean, obviously, everyone who gets selected is incredible. That's it. You could have a short list that had a hundred incredible books on it. And I would have been happy. I'd have gone, there's a hundred amazing books I'd really recommend. But obviously no one else says that they were like, no, let's give people a couple of like reads

to take away on holiday with them. Not a, okay, this is going to take you a lifetime, but you should read all of these books. Yeah. And also, sometimes what you're arguing about, about is enjoyment. You're going, I loved this book. It meant so much to me. But then you could be arguing from a completely different point of view, like, oh, I think this is so important to the world, or it's very now, or what it's doing with language is so modern. And so, and how can you compare those two things? Like, okay, this one's maybe cleverer, but I love this one a lot more. And then sometimes you're arguing, and the other person hasn't even read the book. So they're trying to say, no, the pushback, and you're like, you don't even, you've not even read it.

You just said you've read one of their other ones. Like you can't, like, so it is an odd thing. Have you managed to read more or less during lockdown? More. I have managed to read more. But I've also been buying more books, so it doesn't look like I've read more. It looks like,

because I don't know if you get that. For every book I read, I buy three because I feel like I'm really making a dent in my pile. Someone else might have this problem with, like, shoes or bags. But for me, it is just, I wish I'd read much more than I've got time for, but I have managed to read loads in lockdown and I've put them in a separate pile so I can actually, I could point you to them and go, that's this year or like, as in like last year, like that was lockdown. That's my lockdown piles.

So your first bookshelfy is Magic Far Away Tree by Enid Brighton. And I am super excited to talk to you about this and why it sort of appeal to you because I know that, you've already sort of mentioned in your sort of message about it, that, you know, it's something that you got into as a teenager, brackets too old for it, which makes me laugh. But also acknowledging that, you know, Blighton, in hindsight, her work was problematic. So, yeah, can you tell me what it was, first of all,

that you enjoyed about the book? And also, problematic probably isn't the right word either. I think after I'd written it, I thought, just say, you know, racist. But problematic is such a, like, a word that still excuses someone. Obviously, at the time, I didn't know that, which is not to excuse it. Because she was called out in the 60s. So, but no one had ever said to me, oh, by the way, Enid Blyton also wrote this or also said this.

The magic fireway tree, the reason I loved it is that I really wished it was true. And when I say that I was too old, I was at secondary school and I would take Enid Blyton to school with me and I would read in the toilets at break time, which I know makes me sound like a really cool guy. But essentially, rather than having to go out to the playground, which I felt could be quite confrontational a lot of the time. And I did, I'm not saying I never had any friends at school, but I did go through phases where I didn't or was having trouble with other kids. And I just locked myself in the toilets and then just read.

And the break time or lunchtime just go so quickly. And I really like wish these people were true and like moonface and silky. and that there were different lands that were just whoosh and appear and you could go and have an adventure. And I think that was what was aspirational to me about children in Edie Blighton in general was that, you know, Secret 7 and Famous Five, they had adventures all of the time. And they had such a life that was so different to living kind of, you know, Essex and London. They were lived near the countryside. They were always in, you know, forests or woods.

and that to me was the ultimate and an imagination exercise of like having a nice life. Because it takes place in a sort of enchanted wood, doesn't it, with these three kids that find this magic sort of tree. And it, you know, it is quite different, I think, to like the kind of media or popular culture that most, you know, teenagers were probably, you know, engaging with at that time.

So it's really interesting that that was something that you found like a scapist and enjoy. Yeah, escapist is the perfect word, but it was, I didn't, maybe I did know that it was for real children. And the other one, there was a wishing chair, that's another series that she wrote, was about these, there was like a chair that grew wings and people, and these kids would like go on these different adventures. And then, so I did, I read it, I think I was reading Enid Blighton up until about 16. And then, I remember someone telling me, maybe at university or something, someone mentioned, and, oh, you know, she took cocaine.

That's how she read her book so quickly. Because apparently she wrote some of them, like, in a night. Like, she just stayed up all night on the Coke and wrote a book about kids in a forest. And then I thought, oh, and then I think I remember thinking, oh, like, she was a real woman. And then it must have come up after that. So I'd have been older, but they came up, oh, you know, things like use of gollywogs. And then people are very defensive about a writer. They say things like writers of their time.

and they get defensive, like you're not allowed to criticise. But of course you can criticise. You're just not setting fire to her books. You're not going, okay, let's have a bonfire outside. But you're going, oh, wow, this person was so prejudice, wherever that prejudice came from. And again, you then wouldn't want to stock a children's library with the books that did have, like, explicit racism in them. I really am interested in the point that you sort of made about, you know, being able to criticise these works without necessarily obliterally. obliterating them or setting them a light,

would you say that, you know, so much of magic fireway trees, a lure for you is about the escapism and about it being something that made you feel, you know, potentially safe or, you know, like there was, I don't know, like this magical world that you could sort of, you hoped you'd be able to enter all and all of that.

Do you think that whimsy, that kind of childhood whimsy and safeness has sort of changed with your adulthood perspective, how do you look at it as a work in hindsight? I think that's such an interesting question. So I don't have kids. But if I did have kids and I was reading books to them, I imagine I would be the kind of parent who really wanted to represent a true world,

which doesn't mean that you don't have escapism and you don't have magical stories, but you don't just have stories that are always about white people. And they're things that I would never have considered them at all. Like I wouldn't, if it had been pointed out to me, oh, this person is only writing about this kind of class of children with this kind of background who look like this, that would have been, that would never have occurred to me then because I don't think it was necessarily a wide discussion that society was having,

which isn't to say that some people weren't pointing that out all the time. And I hope that there are a wider range of books for people to find that escapism in now. And you mentioned, you know, that, part of the reason that magic faraway tree meant so much to you as a child is because, or as a teen rather, it's because of, you know, feeling that school could at times be confrontational, somewhere that, you know, you'd rather sort of be in the magic faraway tree world than necessarily at school.

You're obviously now somebody that, you know, performs, is public facing. That sort of confidence, I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, is something you may not have had at school. So where in your sort of journey did that come from? I think like lots of people, especially lots of people in comedy, but I actually think in the entertainment industry in general, they didn't necessarily have a very happy time at school. But through being maybe a little bit weirder or odder or, you know,

too big or too small, definitely not just fitting in easily. What they did was solidify that. And definitely for me, that's what became my career. All of the things that I would have wished at so much at 14, of like having, I just wanted not to be noticed. If you just said, you could just be one of the group and have the right shoes and the right girls would like to be friends with you. I would have given anything for that.

And I remember sometimes adults saying like, when you're older, people will really like the things that are different about you and thinking that those adults were really stupid or that they were just saying that to try and stop you winging or like crying about having their friends. and then actually what happened, and I think this is true, lots of people, after college and then becoming a much more grown-up person, the world is never actually as harsh as school. But I think the experience was really helpful in terms of having a career

where you don't mind being the only one on stage and everyone else is looking in the other direction. Having a job where you never get to fit in because you want everyone to look at you, I do think that that was the start of the journey. that wasn't so much about confidence. I don't know. I'm that confident now, but I must be. But it's a kind of confidence that came out of the,

I'm going to make everyone look at me intentionally. That makes sense. Or they're not going to laugh at me. I'm going to make them laugh with me. Like, I'm going to get in on the joke. It makes perfect sense. And definitely something I can relate to, like, in many ways. Oh, really?

Yeah. Like, it's, especially when you sort of said that adults tell you that, you know, all be fine. Everyone's going to love what makes you different. And so I'm going to tell me everyone. everyone was jealous and I was like, mum, I promise you,

no one is jealous of my really rubbish shoes. And the fact that my backpack isn't like the right backpack that everyone else has. I promise you, no one's jealous. They actually just think I'm weird. But yeah, I resonate with a lot of that, but I will ask my next question

because I know I'm going to make this all about me. So let me not. So again, the Enid Blighton discussion, I think your stance on it is very, very interesting, especially within this climate where God, I really don't want to use the term like council culture

because it's just like, who doesn't, it's everywhere, but there is definitely merit to that conversation and what it is and what true council culture looks like, XYZ. One thing that comes up a lot is the idea of, can you separate the art from the artist? And I think with Enid Blyton and Magic Faraway Tree, it seems in this instance that might be something that you feel we can do. And I'm interested in.

Yeah, I always think this is about, choice because people should have a choice not to read authors because of other things that they've written. So if we're going to translate this to like music, if someone said to me, I turn the radio off if Michael Jackson came on because of what I believe he did, right? And then, and I would think, that's perfectly you're right. But if the government said the radio can't play Michael Jackson anymore, I'd think, whoa, that's so dangerous that we're now going to go down this path where people can't choose. Or say, for instance, Roman Polanski, let's say in film.

So he definitely committed a crime, an awful crime. And if people don't want to watch Roman Polanski films, they don't have to. But some people really love his films. And then they feel bad because they know he's a criminal. He's a sex offender. And it's awful, awful what he did to a child. And so they feel really torn about it. So I think that has to be an individual decision.

I think the problem is when, I think, in most instances, but so this is what I mean. It's like, so, so if, I don't think that someone like Enid Blytheon should be on the curriculum unless what you're going to study is the problematic nature of that person's work, you wouldn't want kids at school to be forced to read an author whose views aren't just like, it's not like being outdated. It's like, oh, they're dangerous. If someone's bigoted, like you can't, you can't be, keep putting that in people's minds. Like if Shakespeare was transphobic, they wouldn't teach it at school. because it would be a horrible thing for children

to go through, you know, year after year having to read about it. So I think that's the thing. It's like people are allowed their personal choices. That's what I believe. But it shouldn't be that it's enforced. And then you do have to be really careful about the particular works because it's like the magic faraway tree.

So the best of my memory, although I'm completely, obviously I haven't reread it for a long time, doesn't have things in it. that are nasty about people or bigoted. I don't think, unless I'm, I really don't think they are, it's like a magical world just created. But I know that there's one book in particular that is, as a book about a story about a black doll who then,

that everyone doesn't like. And then its face gets washed and it has a pink face. And then everyone loves it. And so, that book, I wouldn't be like, no, the libraries should have it in case people want to read it, or like it should be up to children, you'd go, yeah, you don't, you shouldn't publish that anymore. So I guess it's that there's a sliding scale, isn't there? But also that's because

there are so many authors where actually you start going, well, who will we have left? Who will we have left? Yeah, modern authors. Yeah. Oh, God. This is why I love you because I could not agree more. Like, honestly, I just think there's lots to be said. It's fertile ground for conversation. I think at the moment the debate is slightly too polarised. And I think that, That was just a very nuanced take that I really appreciate. So thank you for that. On to your second bookshelfy, which is a phenomenal choice.

I know why the Caged Bird sings by Maya Angelou. Can you tell us a bit about why this book has made it onto your list? Yes, and it's a book I reread recently as well. So I read this book at school and I wasn't given it. What happened is that in English we had a section of the book. and the section, I think it was a section that was in church and she was really laughing. And we were, you know, analysing the language.

Now, Mayor Andrew do, and I don't think there'll be anyone listening who doesn't know her or hasn't read some of her work, is the most exceptional writer. So she's perfect to study for children at school because she uses language in a really, really original way that her descriptions, I actually felt like I was reading a child at the time. I remember that's what affected me so much is I felt like a child had written it. In my head, it wasn't an adult woman talking to me.

It was someone of a really similar age to me. So we studied it a little bit, and I then got the book out of the library to read the whole thing. And I don't think I understood a lot of it properly. When I reread it, I was like, oh, I didn't understand any of this. I didn't understand the racism she was talking about. I didn't understand segregation. There's a bit in it, a really affecting piece of writing about a policeman,

coming to warn the family that the boys are coming. But when he said the boys, what he means is the KKK. And they basically, in the shop, took out all of the potatoes. And the uncle had to hide underneath a shelf. They put all the potatoes and onions on top of them. And so it's just, it's petrifying and mortifying. And also it's all written through a child's eyes. I definitely didn't take that in when I was reading it,

which would have been about 14 years old. The bit that really affected me, in general what affected me was that the powerlessness of being a child, that they get sent to where the adults want them to go. So for a long time, she thought her mom was dead. And then suddenly it becomes that she's going to see her mom again. She gets this Christmas present, and then she's going to have to go and see her.

And also, like, parents having partners, that my mum and dad weren't together. So my mum had boyfriends that I just hated so much. And I hated that I didn't have a choice over whether they were going to be at our house or what they were going to be like. And there's a sense of that. with her reaction to the adult world. And then there's this really awful thing.

And I should say, if anyone listening hasn't read the book or no, it's about this is like my trigger warning that it does talk about her assault, abuse and assault at the hands of her mom's boyfriend. And it's written about in such a matter-of-fact way, but that's what I remember literally branding itself on my brain as a teenager, because it was the most terrifying thing I'd ever read about.

Because she writes so brilliantly, it feels so real. And I know it is real. But writing quite often feels like a story that happens somewhere else, not that it's happening to you as it happens to the character. And that's what she manages to do, I think, so amazingly. It's like everything is so visceral. So when it's actually something that's an act of violence, it's overwhelmingly so.

Absolutely. And you said that you mentioned that you reread the book, quite recently. Whenabouts did you reread it? Last year. So really, last year. Okay, so very recently.

So I was just interested in, you know, given gosh, the conversations that we've been having within the last sort of year or approaching a year in terms of racism, race relations, Black Lives Matter,

the few times I've been able to sort of reread things. Certain books that I have read that focus on race in any sort of way have definitely sort of, I don't know, I've approached them quite different. I mean, I'm black, so obviously, like, it's still quite, it's quite different in terms of, you know, me engaging with a book about race is obviously going to be different to somebody

that's non-black engaging with a book about blackness or whatever. But I do feel that certain elements and points jump out in different ways, given, like, the discourse of the past year. I was just interested in how I know why the Caged Bird sings, may have read differently. I mean, obviously, because the first time you read it, you were so young, but just also in light of recent conversations. Yeah.

Well, actually, that's a really interesting point to point out, because when I read it, and I'm going to say this quite forgivingly to myself, I didn't read it thinking I'm reading about a black person's experience. I read it thinking I'm reading about my experience. There's a kind of, I read books like that, because the other one I would say that I read a read, around the same time written by a black woman is Alice Walker's The Color Purple, which again is a very, very visceral, very kind of haunting book.

And actually there's something about being a white person who doesn't even realize they're white yet, actually, or what that means. And because there are so many things you take for granted and assume is that I kind of felt like I was everyone. And so in a rereading, I think that's what I was listening to much, much more, is someone else's experience of white people because that's what she's writing about a lot. But in my first reading,

I just thought about like good people and bad people. So she's the good people and her and her family. And then there's like these bullies. But I didn't actually even understand that as white people. Something else and something that is relevant to those kinds of books. And it's something that I really heard when this conversation was happening and is still continuing was that,

white people who want to understand racism better, a white supremacy better, they then, the books or the writers they seek out, it seems to be a kind of, they want to suddenly explore black pain. Or I did read a lot of writers or commenters saying, like read about black joy, experience these things as well, stop looking for misery.

And so that's the other thing that I was aware of is that there's a danger to only reading the saddest sad as stories. and thinking that represents a black experience or that anyone's individual experience represents black experience. So I hope what I've got now is something that's more aware of those things,

having those things in my mind at the same time. Yeah, and it does really change. To be as old as I am and still have huge eye-opening experiences about being white because you just weren't confronted with it for such a long time. is yeah i mean it's it's astonishing and i think that's what a lot of people had last year

was just realizing how much they'd never even had to think about which is obviously is the definition of privilege and it's really interesting what you're saying about reading the color purple and sort of thinking not just the color purple but you know why the cage bird sings and sort of thinking you know this is about me and finding um yourself in in those stories. And yeah, I would say that you should look back on it forgiving me, primarily because I feel that in any good work, the intention is often for people with completely different experiences to still find a universal sort of thread that they feel they relate to because obviously I was like keenly aware that nobody in the books that I was reading

looked like me or was like me. But I mean, I used to have a really heavy sort of like resonance with like Tracy Beaker probably because of her hair and I thought oh yeah that's like that's her that's an afro like when it definitely wasn't but like when I look at um you know the books like things like pride and prejudice which have like absolutely nothing to do with me I think just by virtue of me really enjoying those books and really yeah just really enjoying the work I definitely sort of projected myself within into those stories and I think um often when I'm writing I I kind of hope that's what people will do. So I think it's part of why

good writing can change lives and just create a real level of empathy that I guess other mediums can't necessarily in the same way because you can really put yourself in the... I kind of loved when you spoke about like seeing good guys and bad guys and then growing up and kind of realizing that it's like racism versus like wherever else. And yeah, like I think even as a child I, as a black child,

still had that very simplistic view of like, this is good versus evil. But I think probably just understood slightly earlier that like, you know, the understanding that it was like, yes, and racism is that evil. But still, do you know what I mean? Still was quite simplistic with it and read things like Harry Potter and be like, yeah, you know, I'm slotting myself in,

not even as Hermione, like who's at least the girl. Like being like, yeah, I'm wrong and that's fine because I can do anything. And that's a great part of writing, isn't it? It is. It absolutely is that. I guess my, caution would be in terms of sublimating experiences, which is something that, I mean, that white people can do if we're not slightly more aware. I do exactly. I think what you're saying is

absolutely right. In brilliant writing puts you at the centre of it and is an act of empathy and understanding. But there's a danger to white people going, oh, I understand everyone, everyone's going through because I've read some books. Oh, so actually I'm one of the really evolved ones who actually understand. Yeah, we definitely saw I was having this conversation with a friend just last week actually that we were seeing a lot of that over last summer

post the tragic killing of George Floyd that we were seeing our book sort of tagged in all these anti-racist reading list and I was like, you know, the book that I co-wrote was actually written for black women to help us navigate, you know, racism and

you know, misogy noir within like society and I was like, I, like, white people sure, like go ahead. Of course, give it a read because everyone should read everything. But realistically, the connection between, I definitely think that reading like books that focus on racism can

very much sort of help create a real, a better understanding of your complicity in XYZ, but the idea that, you know, you could just go to Waterstones and kind of buy away and quickly read away, like, you know, basically a lifelong experience

of like white supremacy and, X, Y, Z. It just, it was insane. And some people's books who actually had nothing to do with race, but just were written by black authors. And it was kind of like, well, if you take this anthropological approach and, you know, read this black, follow this black person's Instagram or Twitter, you will be less racist by like osmosis or something. It was just, yeah. Yeah, it's hard to be, because in terms of like virtue signaling, I know that's used as a very insulting thing, but there's a lesser version of it where I think subcontradical,

What people wanted to show, bless them, bless us all, including myself, is that you wanted to show like, okay, I'm listening, I'm trying. I'm on this. I really, and the easiest way to do that was to go like, here's me. Here's my contribution. I catch 22. I mean, all of it is. Yeah, because if you don't do it, then it looks like, well, then do you, like, that's the thing. It's like, it's, of course it's performative, but then if you don't do it, then of course, you're in that space where people might think that you don't care and, you know, it's not. It's not. spoken out as you're engaged and this, that and the other, I really liked, because it was the most ironical thing in the world

when people would tweet that they were listening because tweeting is talking so it's like, I'm listening, I'm listening, I'm listening, it's like,

you're not, your show, everyone. This podcast is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish Queen. Bailey's is proudly supporting the women's

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Donations of all sizes help us to continue empowering women, regardless of their age, race, nationality, background to raise their voice and own their story. Search for Support the Women's Prize to find out more. So your third book, Shelfi, is The Fountainhead by Ein Rand. Tell me more about this book. I know that you have mentioned that it's a controversial choice. I feel like your choices are definitely outside of the box. I'm really feeling it.

So Ein Rand, I definitely isn't expecting. Well, this is the thing sometimes about the books that stay with us. when you read a lot, a lot of novels that I read that I absolutely love. And I'm like, oh, well, eating it up, yum, yum, yum. And then I read them and I put them down and then I forget all the characters and I forget what happens. And a year later, I'd say, oh, that's so good. And you go, what's it about?

And I go, I don't know anymore. Like, I've forgotten. Whereas the fountain head, I didn't realize how controversial it was. I read it after university, maybe when I was about 27, 28. And the reason I found it very profound, one is because this author, who I didn't know her association. So I didn't know that she was Margaret Thatcher's favorite author and that all of the American, you know, I guess, what do they, anyway, the right, the extreme right, all right, that they really love her. I didn't know that. I just thought she was a novelist who had this

philosophy, which is called objectivism. And it really correlated with how my dad lives his life, actually. So my dad believes that you can't make, you can't make anyone happy unless you're happy yourself that there's no point like martyring to other people because you won't be a great person to be around that that you'll be very bitter and he always had this philosophy that was similar to hers and I really kind of believed in it that that choice is so important but anyway the fountain head itself is essentially about an architect and it's about how there are two kinds of people in the world there are the people who would like to be famous even if they don't do the work so the example in the book I'm really simplifying it but is that some architects would like the really

beautiful building, if you could say, oh, they made it, even if they didn't, they would rather that than be the person who made it but doesn't get the credit. Whereas there are some people who'd be so desperate to get their building made for it to exist in the world, their work of art, their genius, their creation, that they'd be happy not to have their name on it if it existed. And it's about how all creation is compromise. And the thing about architecture, which I'd never even thought about, was that architects, people have to actually want to live inside their work. And so there's so much compromise because the person who gets to live in there or work in there gets to tell you what they want. So you might have a vision in your head of something you'd like to exist.

And it's a bit like getting notes when you're writing actually. I don't know how you've found that experience, but where there's something that feels so important and makes so much sense to you and having an editor to go, what's this, I don't get it. Or just cut that. It's too long. And you're like, that's the knob of what I'm saying. And no, no, it's not clear. And the idea of like another human mind, it doesn't matter what's in your head. it matters how another human translates it.

So anyway, for me, the whole book was about creativity. So while it is a story, there's all these kind of like ideas in it. So she doesn't write amazing novels, but I found this one to be incredible. And then I spoke about it on Radio 4. They have a show called a good read. And what happens is that three people all pick a book and then you talk about it. And I hadn't realized that this was a controversial book. So I just picked it.

I'd recently read it. I thought it was so interesting, thought I could talk about it. and then they took me to task. I really didn't really like they both hated it. They both thought I was awful for choosing it. And it's the most abuse I've ever had for anything. Oh, God. So afterwards, especially like with radio,

and I just, because I didn't know that she was a right-wing author, I had people like write to me go, the only people who like her are evil, and that's how I know you're evil now. Or, yeah, people, you know that thing, where it's just like a really bad kind of death threat. And you think, wow, the fact that a novel, a novelist can create that kind of vitriol in people because of what she now represents, how she's been absorbed by a political movement is because actually the novel itself, I mean, I read the other one, the really big one, Atlas shrugged. And that one is far, far, I would say more brutal in how she felt about humanity.

like she has one bit in it where an entire trainload of people are gassed accidentally and she goes through the train and tells you why each person, including children, deserve to die because of, yeah, because they were liberal because they thought the government should have like, there should be like a social safety nets or things like this. And the reason they were all gassed is because they were trying to get like cheap fuel for the national rail. And that's why they all deserve to die. So, yeah, so there is extremity in Anne Rand. But I also think she's a very interesting person.

And it's very interesting to read stuff that's completely different to how you feel. I think that it's important sometimes as a mental exercise to read things you disagree with and to find out what does correlate or how you would argue back. Or I think so I don't, I don't think reading an author. I mean, I haven't read, you know, like mine camp for anything. But I understand that if people who do, there's an exercise there where they're interested, but it doesn't mean that they're a fascist. I respect that answer so much because I could not agree more.

I feel like I've had times where people have sort of asked me why I'm following a certain person on Twitter. I mean, I'm a journalist. So it's like if I'm following Donald Trump, I can guarantee you. It's not because I'm endorsing his views. It's literally like it's just, you know, I've been asked why I don't know, like reading certain things or engaging with certain publications. And for me, I know what I believe because I, you know, engage with politics and viewpoints that aren't, that I don't hold. And that there's a difference, I think, between actually being aware of those arguments so that you can combat and debate them compared to endorsing them.

I don't think, you know, people who have to put in their bio, like retweets aren't endorsements. I don't think actually reading something is necessarily an endorsement of it. And I think even sometimes, you know, with something such as the fountainhead, I think even an endorsement of that work is not necessarily an endorsement of bloody iron rand. And I really respect the fact that despite the vitriol that you received on Radio 4 for making that choice, you've chosen it again. I was going to say that there can be a thing if you're the only person, and it would more often happen like in a friendship group, like if you are the only,

person who likes a certain band or a certain, you know, a film is your favorite film when everyone else thinks it's rubbish. You do occasionally have to defend yourself when everyone else goes like, oh my God, that is so bad. And I do think that that's a strength of character because there's a point in my life where I would have instantly backed down and gone, oh, you're right, you're right, okay, fine, I'm, I'm really, I don't like it either actually. Like, I don't know why I said that. And there does come something with age. We just have to kind of back down and go, I'm just going to tell you why I liked it. I'm not telling you you're wrong to disson. like it or not enjoy it or any of those things because it affected me so much while I was reading

it. I honestly felt I was having this really interesting discussion with the author. So the ideas in that, especially because I wanted to be a creative, were really valuable because I kept testing like, what would I do in this situation and what do I want to be in the world? And that's a really useful thing to think about. I completely agree in terms of having to sometimes doubly defend your viewpoint to just make sure that, you know, it's clear that I'm not a bad person. I don't have bad taste. This is just, this is just something that I like. And I think even the fact that, you know, there's clearly such a nuanced sort of understanding in terms of your choices from I ran to Enid Blyton. The conversation that we've had has been very critical, both of

individuals and their viewpoints, whilst still being able to respect their work essentially. You know, when you sort of said that, you know there's a point in your life that you may have just back down immediately and you know you could have sent something completely differently that you know everyone would agree with and be like yeah of course I love him Amanda too like how difficult is it for you as a visible and vocal woman to continue to I suppose stand by your choices that might be slightly more controversial or often just different because I feel like lots of the women I know that are working visibly are, they're just terrified of tweeting, Instagramming, saying anything.

Because they're just like, if they're like, oh, I really like the Just Eat advert or something, everybody's going to tell them a way in which that's in some way problematic or awful. So, yeah, how do you do it? So one thing, and I say this to anyone, and actually it's not just women in the public eyes, any woman, you're going to get told off constantly anyway. Like, it doesn't matter how good you are, someone will find something you did wrong or another blind spot. And the more you apologize, the more you will have to apologize.

So that's just the world actually the way that it is now. Things that people call me out on are so ridiculous that some of them are really funny. I got a message, an email to my website complaining that I'd done an Instagram, like a video. So like on my stories. And it was me with these little dog stickers. Now I have to say these dog stickers weren't photographs. They were pictures like drawn cartoons. And the dogs have got hats on or bows or like little canes.

And this woman was angry with me. she said that I was encouraging inbreeding in animals. And like all these dogs who like have heart problems and bad backs, etc. And I wrote back to her and I was like, you're not seriously saying that's my fault. And she wrote back and she said, you making dogs look cute makes people want cute dogs. And then I wrote back and I honestly, and I said to her, she said, I really thought you'd understand me. I said they weren't even pictures. I said they were, you know, they were drawn.

And she was like even cuter because they had hats on and clothes. I know. And that's what I would use as an example is sometimes you just have to go, there are lots of really valid pushbacks and criticisms and have you thought about this. But it is exhausting. And I think people are allowed to switch off from it. The only responsibility I think we have. And also we all come up with our moral code is like you shouldn't be like insensitive to making the world worse. So, you know, if your ideas are controversial because people say that you know that you're making people's lives more difficult or you know if you use that language that is then awful for people who maybe aren't like you. But. consider this from their perspective. And if you don't care, I think that's not a very nice way to live because we're a social animal living altogether. But I also think like the discussion stuff, as long as it's not hurting anyone, the nightmare would be like, oh, you're going to make someone cry. You're going to be on TV or the radio and someone's going to start crying going, actually, Anne Rand ruined my life. But I don't think that would happen with someone like her.

And I do think a little bit. I do think, oh, what would be interesting to talk about, but I would never think like let's talk about rickage ofases anti-trans routine like yeah if the only point was to do it and then but by doing it you would upset people because you're repeating like nasty or hateful things again i completely agree i think i i definitely understand the point of certain you know artists or individuals their work or even i suppose in some cases themselves because they're almost inextricable from their work really having a real sort of visceral, creating really visceral reaction in people. But I also do think that, A, I agree that I'm not sure I'm Rand is that type of individual. She might have been,

like she might have been, if she was on Twitter nowadays, like someone like Katie Huckin. Exactly. But she wasn't. Yeah. I think that's the thing. Because I always think of it in terms of like, I don't know, Walt Disney and the fact that he genuinely is somebody that like, if he had been on Twitter, I think, if we were more aware of his views in real time, and. we probably have a way more sort of visceral reaction to who he was as a person because he was fucking terrible. But I think there is that sort of general consensus

in terms of people understanding that, you know, generations of people have enjoyed his work. And it's very complicated, essentially, but I think... And it's like what is in the work, because if it isn't in the work, at university we did Death of the Author. And so, and it was always supposed to be that everyone, it's completely separate

from their biography. It's like the work exists. It can reflect on its culture and its time, but it absolutely isn't important what's true and what's not. It isn't important what Sylvia Plath did with Ted Hughes. Like, it's just her poem that's important. Very true. And I think that's the thing I bought Disney.

You just have to kind of ignore that and go, that's an interesting biography over there for people who care. And over here, it's Pinocchio. Exactly. If people want to have an issue with, I think the film's called Song of the South, the one which I'm pretty sure there was some sort of like slavery, imagery or narrative.

I can't remember, but I think that film has either been banned or reworked. That makes sense. But the Little Mermaid, you know, aside from the like offensively bad Jamaican accent that Sebastian has, I'm like, it's pretty much fine in and of itself. So your fourth bookshelfy is Under the Net by Iris Murdoch.

You have said that you love all of her novels and they make you feel braver because her characters make huge decisions and then go on to cope. Can you tell me what it is specifically that you love about under the net and I guess what decisions were made in that book? Well, so the reason I chose under the net because I couldn't choose, I knew I wanted to have an Iris Murdoch book and then I couldn't choose which of the ones to talk about. So I put under the net, which is her first novel. Now, I love it.

I love anyone who lives in London, I think, would enjoy her novels because there's a lot of London in them. There's always characters walking around. they'll be in, you know, whether it's central or north or west, you'll just get this real taste of London then. And she writes about a London where I think so much is possible. And I think often, reflecting on it now, it's because the characters have money. Like even if they're skints, they've got money.

Under the Nets does involve a guy who doesn't have very much money trying to get some. But, you know, he's always still drunk and in nice places. He's not ever destitute. I guess it's a very middle-class kind of skint. is what he has. The reason I say big decisions is like the first time I read an Iris Murdoch and I don't think it was under the net. I think it was like black, the black prince or the philosopher's pupil, there was an infidelity in it. And what happened in the story is a couple cheated together and then they left their partners and got together. And then the partners got other partners and then carried

on. And it was so, I was reading it thinking, oh my God, people survive. It must have been at a point in my 20s where I'd been with a boyfriend for a few years and I thought if we broke up, he would die and then and I wouldn't know what to do that what did you do if you broke? There was no life after a long relationship. And I was reading this book about these people who just were unhappy and then changed things. I was like, oh my God, is that possible? And then after some time, people just move on and they're still alive, living their lives and you haven't ruined everything.

And so I broke up with my boyfriend. Wow. And I remember being on a bus going, oh my God, if they can do it, I can do it. and I broke up with my boyfriend and it made me feel like an actual adult. I thought, oh, I'm like someone in an Iris Murdoch book who just isn't happy and does something about it. And then I think that with another boyfriend, a couple of years later, I was reading an Iris Murdoch book and I realized I'm going to break up with him.

And then I started to be like, oh no, they're dangerous Iris Murdoch novel. She always break up with someone because she would tell stories that would be dramatic and they'd be very much about human behavior. but she is very forgiving of all human behaviour. I feel like, and I know this is a terrible thing to say because I'm not a man, but I always think I think she writes really good men, like really kind of flawed,

but they make sense to me, whereas in the real world, quite often men don't make sense to me, whereas she makes them make sense. And I think she was fascinated with men and love men, and most of her characters are, her central characters are male. And she is just so clever that what's very deftly put into her books,

and I would say this is true of Under the Net, is lots of philosophy, lots of philosophical ideas or characters who are writers writing philosophy. She wrote non-fiction books as well, like she wrote a biography of Jean-Paul Sartre, and I think she may have done philosophy at university. There's a couple of films about her life, and there's one called Iris, where Judy Dentch plays her,

and it's about her Alzheimer's, I believe, that she had. And so, yeah, she's just an incredible brainiac, but she was kind of bisexual and before, they had a proper word for it, polyamorous. So she had long, intensive relationships with both sexes outside of her marriage because she had such passionate intellectual connections with people. So there's lots that I find very aspirational about her. I need to get me some Iris Murdoch in my life.

I'm like, I'd really recommend it. I want to grow up and be an adult and find a boyfriend to then break up with and feel really like womanly about it. Can you tell me some more about some other Iris Murdoch books that you've, enjoyed. Well, the sea, the sea, which would have been the most obvious one to choose. And that one, again, it's about, as a man and he's healing and he swims in the sea every day. And she just makes you want to do whatever her characters are doing. So you read this book about a man who's living on the top of a hill, going swimming in the cold sea, living alone.

And you're like, that's what I want. I'm going to get a cottage. I'm going to get good at cold swimming. I'm just going to see the colour of the sky every day and watch the seasons change. yeah everything she writes about is so attractive to me I always want to do it I want to get I want to be a gambler who's lost all his money I want to I want to do this thing yeah I always I guess I just her world in her world everyone is so alive like no one's just you know on the train reading a paper going into work doing a nine to five

they're very much seeking things and reacting to each other Okay, this is definitely noted for lockdown reading because if there's anything I could do with feeling right now, it's alive. So, yeah, thank you very much. It's a good point. We deny a result. Yeah. So your fifth and final bookshelfy this week is your voice in your head by Emma

Forrest recommended to you by your friend Dolly. I want to say Alderton, right, it is Dolly, isn't it? Yes, there's only one Dolly isn't there? Like, as soon as I saw Dolly, I was like, it's got to be her. And you've now kindly bought it for lots of your friend. and you said it's incredible around healing and heartbreak. Tell me more about it. So Dolly recommended it.

And I was actually going to put Dolly's book on here because it's actually quite similar in that it's about one person's emotional journey. But in reading about it, I think there's so much for anyone, no matter at what point of your life you currently are. So Dolly asked if I'd read this book as by a woman called Emma Forrest. And I was like, no, I've never read it. And she just sent it to me in the post. and she didn't really tell me anything about it.

So there I am in the bath. And my first thought on the first page was, wow, this woman writes incredible prose. Just beautiful sentences. There's something about brilliant writing when actually it's the simplicity, the fact that it's not trying very hard that makes you go like,

oh my God, I know all these words, but when you put them in this order, the first thing you get is, wow. And actually, my husband, who read it straight after me, because I kept talking about it while I was reading it, that it was so much that he was like, okay, I will just read it. He similarly, it was in the bath on the first page. He was like, oh, my God, this woman can write.

So you just have that effect. That's the first thing. And then by the second page, I was like, this person is opening their veins. So the title, Your Voice in My Head, she's writing the book to her therapist because she had, and just this man sounds so incredible, an amazing, amazing, amazing therapist.

and her life, after years of therapy, and I don't want to give any spoilers away, actually, because I actually think everyone should read this book. But when he wasn't in her life anymore, what he would say to situations, I guess in a very simplistic way, it was helpful. Once someone has said things that are very wise to you has helped you through certain situations,

that can stay with you, and you can reuse it or revisit it or imagine how they would respond. And I say that it's amazing about heartbreak. A lot happens in this book. She's young. She has memories. She travels. again there's exploration of assault. Although, so something I should say is that sometimes when people tell me a book

is going to be about abuse or assault, I think, oh, I can't read. I mean, it's going to be a bit much. And I would say that while the book is incredibly written, it's not something that's a really violent episode that's going to make you not be able to read it, actually. I think what's very interesting about it is one of those situations which I think many people experience where they're young, but at the time it was just something that you kind of cope with then understand and then you look back and go, oh, that's not right, or that person shouldn't have done that, or that adult should have looked after me in that situation. So it's actually

completely fascinating. Also, something about that as well is that when you're, sometimes when you're 15 or 16 or 17, you don't know that you're attractive. And so people's responses to you don't make any sense because you think you're disgusting. And that's why sometimes you don't even know to protect yourself or know to make, know that men might want things. from you, that kind of stuff. She writes about all of that brilliantly, but also she's always telling you her personal story. She's not trying to talk about that in a generalised way.

I'm extrapolating that from the story. And then the heartbreak, she's with this partner and it's so passionate. It's so passionate. It's, you know, texting each other 150 times a day. It's love poems. It's planning their unborn children. It's that kind of thing where, and it's the most dangerous kind of relationship, actually. And I say dangerous only because there's a kind of person loving this way is dangerous because they will break your heart. But where their happiness, being around them is the happiest, biggest adventure, the best thing that could ever happen.

And then what happens is that person completely goes cold on her. And again, I think that's an experience that everyone has had. And that doesn't make any sense. And you almost have to relive that relationship. You doubt if it was real. How could they cut you off? how can it go, that whole part of it, I've never read it, written about better.

And so that's why with friends, obviously someone's always breaking up with someone. And I'm always like, right, what's your dress? Give me your postcode. I've got this book that you have to read because I think it's perfect to read while you're going through it because she describes it so brilliantly. But also if you've ever had it,

but also the human experience of it, it's a really amazing, amazing, I guess, yeah, autobiography. And I've read her out of the work as well. I read one of her novels the other day. She's just a brilliant writer in general. Your series out of your mind explores the theme of heartbreak. Did you happen to read your voice in my head around that time?

And if not, what was your sort of inspiration in terms of, you know, looking into that theme? So I actually didn't read it. I read it last year. So I'd written the series beforehand, but I think I'm very interested in heart. break. And the reason is, so I, I broke up with a boyfriend just after I'd turned 17. So it was my first boyfriend. It was less than a year. So let's say 11 months. And I was affected by that breakup for such a long time. I mean, I mean, I'm nearly 17. So over 25 years, I would say that was still my biggest thing. If someone had said to me, what pain are you carrying around with you? What's the worst thing?

that was the bit where I thought I wouldn't ever survive. And then it took so many stages. And when I wrote my show, and something I've noticed, obviously, an interesting story for us culturally, our single women who can't survive or women without men looking for men. And I see that there's so much comedy in that

and there's so much humanity in it. So it's not to criticize those stories, but I definitely didn't want to write something about a woman looking for a man. I wanted to write about the opposite, it was a woman who's trying to feel complete without fitting someone else into her life. And I also really had, I wanted to have a woman who hadn't got over someone.

So in the show, we've kind of up the ante a bit. And she's like, she's jilted why she's trying on a wedding dress after he's proposed to her. So they've been engaged for a couple of months and then he comes in and says he can't do it. Because my experience was, I honestly, I fell in love with this guy so deeply that I really believed it was going to be the rest of my life.

I actually, I had never, I'd never, not even like, like never kissed anyone before. I never had a physical experience. I just, it was just, I went from no love to this huge thing and I just didn't know that it would stop. And then he met someone else straight afterwards. Or probably actually, he overlapped. He had another girlfriend. And then he, anyway, it was so traumatic at the time. And it took such a long time to heal from it that I felt like, I keep seeing stories about people who move on really quickly.

Like in a film what would happen is Jennifer Aniston would be like crying in one scene pretending to eat vanilla ice cream. And the next day a guy would be nice to her and you'd go, oh, good, she's going to go out with this guy now. And in real life, I feel like there's such a long time. And it's not that you can't have relationships in that time or even fancy other people, but in terms of being like actually emotionally available, there might be loads of stuff to process.

And so that's what I wanted to write with the show. And I think I'm very, very interested in heartbreak. anyway, especially people's representation of it because it is something every single human being has experienced and along with, you know, rejection and liking people who don't like you back. There are certain things that when people write or express them amazingly, it connects you again to your experience of it and you get to kind of judge where you are.

And so I hadn't even put two and two together actually about the themes of it. because I wonder how it would have changed if I had read it and I could have just copied it and put it on the video. Thank you so much, Sarah. It's honestly been such a pleasure. But before I let you go, I have to ask you a very difficult question,

which is you're prepared for it. You've had however long this is overrun to prepare for it, which is if you had to choose one book from your list as your favourite, which book would it be and why? Okay, so I'm going to make this look really easy. So anyone who makes it really hard looks like a wuss. I'm going to choose Your Voice in My Head by Emma Forrest.

And the reason is, it's the one of the books I read most recently. And actually, out of the five, if I had to just give a book to someone I knew nothing about, like, just somebody listening, if I had to push a book into their hand, looking at that list, I think, oh, they might not like this, or this might be a bit too full on for them. So actually, I think your voice in my head that any human being would connect with it because of what it talks about in terms of love. I think lots of people don't think that they deserve therapy.

I think books about therapy in general can be quite useful for people as well. Because for a really long time, I thought it was something that was only for really posh people or people with really terrible problems. And actually, I think now it could be a very, very useful thing that everyone deserves. And it's beautifully written and it's the one I've read most recently. So I'll say that one. God, you really did make that look very easy. Now everybody's going to be like scrambling to make themselves look as succinct,

and on point. Sarah, thank you so much. That was phenomenal. I'm honestly such a huge fan of your work. You're so smart. And honestly, I just knew this would be a very, very enjoyable conversation. But even then it exceeded my expectations. Thank you. It was great. Thank you. Thank you. You're a brilliant interviewer. These all go so well. I think you'll have, I think they'll all go so my fear is just that everyone's honestly, like, I've seen the list and everyone's amazing. I'm like, God, how am I going to rein this in? I'm just going to be like, oh my God. So anyway, about that breakup. Tell me more, girl. But yeah. I'm Yomiyan Degah K

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