Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S3 Ep6: Bookshelfie: Diane Von Furstenberg

Episode Date: May 5, 2021

Join iconic fashion designer and legend of female empowerment Diane Von Furstenberg as she discusses the five books which have shaped her career with Yomi. Diane is best known for her groundbreaking “wrap dress” which came out in 1974 and earned her global recognition, becoming a wardrobe staple around the world. It’s still worn by celebrities including Michelle Obama and Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge. But her impact goes well beyond clothing and cosmetics - Diane is also a keen philanthropist and a role model for female empowerment. Her foundation The Diller is the force behind the DVF Awards, which celebrate female leaders, she’s part of Sheryl Sandberg’s ‘Ban Bossy’ campaign and she even designed shirts for Hilary Clinton’s presidential bid. Diane Von Furstenberg's latest book, 'Own It: The Secret to Life’, is out now.   Diane’s book choices are:    ** A Life by Simone Veil ** The Second Sex by Simone De Beauvoir  ** My Life on the Road by Gloria Steinem ** Caste by Isabel Wilkerson ** Blowout by Rachel Maddow Every week, join journalist and author Yomi Agedoke, and inspirational guests, including Elizabeth Day, Sara Pascoe and Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie as they celebrate the best books written by women. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and has been running for over 25 years, and this series will offer unique access to the shortlisted authors and the 2021 Prize winner.  This podcast is produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve. Today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit Harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com. With thanks to Baileys, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction

written by women around the world. I'm Yomiyo Joka-Kay, your host for season three of the Women's Prize podcast. We have a phenomenal lineup of guests for 2021, and I guarantee you will be taking away plenty of reading recommendations. Each bookshelfy episode, we ask an inspiring woman to share the story of her life through five different books by women. Hello and welcome to today's episode of Bookshelfy. I'm Yomiya Degokay and I'm absolutely thrilled to be your host for series three, where I'll be lucky enough to be interviewing some incredible women about the work of other incredible women.

I'm excited to tell you that this year's short list is out and the six brilliant authors and their books can all be found on our website, wwwwomen'spriceforfiction.com.com. we are still practicing safe social distancing, and this podcast is being recorded remotely. Today's guest is the iconic fashion designer, Dianne von Furstenberg. Diane is best known for her groundbreaking rap dress, which came out in 1974 and earned her global recognition, becoming a wardrobe staple around the world. It's still worn by celebrities including Michelle Obama and Catherine Duchess of Cambridge. She's one of the world's most

successful fashion entrepreneurs and was chairwoman of the Council of Fashion Designers of America for 13 years. She was also named by Forbes and Time magazine in their most powerful women and 100 icons lists in 2014 and 2015. But her impact goes well beyond clothing and cosmetics. Deanne is also a keen philanthropist and a role model for female empowerment. Her foundation, the Diller, is the force behind the DVF awards, which sees. celebrate female leaders. She's part of Cheryl Sandberg's Ban Bossy campaign, and she even designed shirts for Hillary Clinton's presidential bid. Diane's also been sharing her own secrets to success to help other aspiring leaders, and her new book, Onet, encourages readers to embrace their imperfections

to achieve personal and professional growth. Welcome, Deanne, to the podcast. It's an honor. Hello. How has your day been? My day today has been actic, but good. I mean, it's a beautiful day. It just rained a little bit, but now the sun is out, and I'm in the country. And I am working, and I'm talking to you. Oh, sounds nice. Sounds very nice. And speaking more broadly, how would you say you have found the last year? It's been quite a difficult year in terms of lockdown and, of course, the coronavirus crisis. How has it been for you personally trying to navigate that. Well, I am, you know, I'm very lucky and very privileged because I have a house with a big garden.

So I was home. I actually took the opportunity of this, you know, forced pause to do. I worked on many things and I worked on this book. I worked on and I think the fact this, you know, this forced pause. Pauls has given this book more, maybe a little bit more depth because we were in this moment of reflection. And so hopefully it came out better than if I had written it in a normal time. And I mean, I'm looking forward to discussing a bit more about your book later. Congratulations on it. But I also wanted to talk about the fact that you once said

at least in an article that I read, that you'd considered becoming a librarian. Have you always been somebody with a keen interest in books and readers? Yes, yes, yes. I love, love books. I never played with dolls because I loved books. I didn't know what I would do growing up, and somebody told me I could be a librarian, but I really didn't like the librarian in my school.

So that wasn't an option. But I love books, and I've always loved books. I mean, you're also an incredibly busy woman. I mean, you said, as you mentioned, today's been very hectic. I imagine that most days are hectic. So do you manage to find the time to read as much as you'd like to? Well, that's a good question because, you know, read. One of the things that I have discovered,

and I don't know if you will like that, but I have discovered audiobooks. And so I can, you know, listen to a book while I'm driving or while I'm exercising or when I'm in the back or when, you know, and I find that very helpful. Deanne, I don't like that. I love that. I'm a very big audio book listener myself.

Oh, are you? Some people don't at all. Yes, and I listen to audiobooks whenever I can because it's the only way I can fit it in my schedule. It's good to multitask, as you said, in the shower, cleaning, writing, doing whatever. I think it's great. Exactly. So one thing that I noticed in terms of the books that you chose as your bookshelfies today is that every last one is nonfiction, which is very interesting.

Are you not an avid reader of fiction or do you read fiction? Oh, oh, oh, no, I do read fiction. It is true that I do like a biography, yes, but it's really an accident. I mean, of course I read fiction, but I read, I read, I can. guess I read less fiction. Well, your choices are excellent, regardless of them being fictional nonfiction, and we're going to get right to them now. So your first bookshelfy book is A Life, a Memoir by Simone Vale. Yes.

Can you tell me who Simone Vale is, and what about her life inspires me? Okay, well, Simone Vale was a politician in France. She was minister many times. The reason that I wanted to read her memoir is because she was about the same age as my mother and she had the same journey as my mother. She was in Auschwitz and she was a survivor. She did the death march and so did my mother. So I was interested in reading that because, you know, survival has. survivors have many things in common.

Thank you so much, Diane. And I mean, your mother surviving Auschwitz, the concentration camp must have hugely impacted your own upbringing and sense of identity. Exactly, exactly. You've spoken about, you know, survival and, you know, the story of Simone and your mom and how, you know, those have inspired your idea of survival.

And I was watching your masterclass and you're talking about, you know, arriving in America with two suitcases and, you know, essentially just a lot of confidence, a lot of grit, but that was it really. How did you, I suppose, how did you have that sort of spirit of survival? Well, I don't want you to misunderstand. I did not arrive with two suitcases as a refugee. Not at all. By the time I arrived, I had already married, Agon. I arrived in New York as a princess, but I did have two suitcases full of the little dresses that I actually was only one, one suitcase full of dresses that I had designed. Of course, I did feel that I was coming to America, so I related to the refugees, and my parents were refugees, and even though I was a princess,

I still wanted to be independent, and that's why I started to work, and that's why I had brought my suitcase and was I confident I don't know that I was confident I became confident as I became successful and I was very lucky to be successful very early so I don't know that I actually came in

with competence but I came in with something that that will have brought me confident absolutely and I think I suppose I mean that survival that's required in I suppose a country sort of as, you know, such as America and an industry as cutthroat as fashion and

design, it's not necessarily the easiest industry to navigate. So I was just interested and I suppose what kept you going throughout the years in terms of, you know, because you mentioned that you had lots of successes, but also lots of knockbacks and I suppose that sense of survival and continuing despite the failures that you did experience. How important, were female role models to you? I was raised by a mother who always told me that to be a woman was lucky. When she would refer to men, she would say, Le Poe, boy, you know. She felt sorry for men.

So I wasn't raised by a mother who felt overpowered by men. She always made me feel that that was such a privilege and that we were stronger and things like that. I worked as really interns for other people, but really I started to work on myself very early on. So I didn't have the glass ceiling and all of that. I was an entrepreneur. I worked for myself, which means it's often much harder because, you know, you have all of the responsibility. But I personally didn't have. So I was a feminist.

I mean, I was naturally a feminist. And that leads into the second one, the Simone de Beauvoir, you know, who was very much a feminist of she was married to, I don't even know if she was married, but she lived with Sartre, Jean-Paul Sartre. And so, you know, it was about intellectual and writer and existentialist and philosopher. So I really admired that. and she was dealing, you know, she wrote about the women oppression and all of that. So that leads into my, you know, my second book. And so I guess that that's how I became a feminist and how I became interested into women's right.

Thank you so much, Diam. We're going to just now go into your second book, Shelfy, which is, as you mentioned, the second sex by Simone de Beauvoir, first published in 1949. When did you first read it? Oh my God, you know, to tell you the truth, I don't remember having read it all in one shot. You know, you study it and you analyze it and you, and, you know, it just had an impact. The book had an impact. The words were an impact.

But she, the woman, had so much impact as well. So how do you remember, you know, you mentioned studying it and not necessarily sitting down and reading it at one time, very much influencing you. How did it affect your understanding of the world and sex and gender and life as a woman? Well, it's about the freedom also, about not being overpowered by a man, not be, you know, but just being equal. It's all about equality. And as you mentioned, you know, you married into German royalty in 1969,

but immediately set out pursuing your own career and being independent. was this a conscious feminist decision or just, you know, an innate desire for you to be your own independent person? Yeah, I always wanted that. I always wanted that and my mother always pushed me to be independent. So I can't even remember, even when I was a young girl and I would write short stories, I would, I would, my character would always be the mistress and not the wife, you know. she was, she was, she was the independent one. And was that, you know, you said that your mum was always big on independence. It's something you always wanted. Do you ever remember anyone sort of saying the opposite to you?

Especially once, you know, you married into royalty and were literally a princess. No, no, no, no. Oh, no one was ever like, you should just stay in your lane and not being, okay, well, that's very lucky. You hung out at all holes. Zudo 54 in the 70s. And did you see the kind of feminism that Dubois spoke of reflected in that space at all? Well, when I came to New York, when I came to New York was very much the time of sex liberation and women's limb. And that leads into the third book, which is Gloria Steinem. I mean, the women who were my idols were Angela Davis, you know, the Black Panther and Gloria Steinem. especially. And what I loved about Gloria Stannem is that she was such an advocate for woman and

everything and yet she was a beautiful woman and she was seductive and she was and I love that. You're doing my job for me. I appreciate it. We're now onto the third bookshelfy as you mentioned, which is my life on the road by Gloria Steinem. You've just mentioned what it was that you love about Gloria. Yes. And I love also the fact that she never takes herself. seriously, even though she has had such an effect on generations of women. And this particular book that I mentioned, The Journey, what I like about it is that she describes a journey. And, you know, when you reach the end of your life, as I am now,

you look at your life and it is a journey. And her journey was extraordinary. And I don't know, actually, you should read, you should watch the book, the glorious, no, the movie. And that's what, you know, came out of this book. And the journey of her life, you know. And she's completely a free woman and she's completely independent, but she remained a woman. She was never belittled.

She has a great sense of humor. And she doesn't take herself seriously. And yes, she's so serious. So how involved are you with the second wave of feminism? And did you and Gloria ever meet or know each other? Oh, yes, yes. Oh, no, no. I was very involved.

She and I have become intimate friends. And last year or two years ago, I got the highest woman's award you can get. It's the Women's Hall of Fame for Women. She gave me the award. I've given her. And I joke, one time, 10 years ago, she asked me to give her an award so I was I of course I accepted and then as I was in the room about to give her the award I remembered that you know when I came to New York I was a princess because I had married a prince but then I separated and it is the time that she invented this magazine called Ms. M. S and therefore she invented the word miss and I

when I gave her the award, I told the story that I was actually happy to give up my title of princess to be miss. I love that. It's interesting that you mentioned that, you know, Gloria was very much an attractive woman. And that's often a conversation in feminism about, you know, women's value in terms of appearance and how that affects the feminist movement. You've made really interesting comments about plastic surgery. and not necessarily feeling as though it's something that you would, you know, you've essentially expressed some interesting thoughts on them.

So I'm interested in what your thoughts are today on plastic surgery, especially as it's an increasingly normal thing. Yes, and I decided not to do anything. And, you know, sometimes I look at other people and say, oh, maybe I should have. But I really, I'm glad I didn't because I like to see what I become and embrace who I am. But of course, I mean, you know, I will do anything to, you know, to massages and facials and anything like that.

But I don't, I made the choice of not changing. Well, the massages and facials are doing an incredible job. You look fantastic. So, oh, you two, come on. So how conscious were you of sexism and patriarchy when you were working in the, when you first started working in the fashion industry? Well, actually, I didn't, and it's only really recently. It's fairly recently that I've realized how, you know, bully men can be. In a weird way, I realize that almost more now with the Me Too movement than the original movement.

But what is unbearable and not acceptable is that women don't have equal pay. I mean, you know, equal pay this year is, I think it was more. March 24th and they calculated. So in other words, if you took a year, the woman wouldn't be paid until March 24th in order to be equal. And that is incredible. I mean, that is crazy. It's absolutely insane.

Do you feel as though, I mean, that's the present day situation. So do you feel as though much progress has been made compared to when you were starting out? You know, the progress, the progress for women. is we think we do and then we go back and so it's very important not to give up. So Vogue's editor, Diana Riland, was a big supporter of your work when you were starting out.

Would you say there was a sisterhood at the top of fashion during that time? I don't know about sisterhood. She was a lot older than me and she was incredibly intimidating, you know. But she did see something that no one else with those silly, you know, very simple little dresses but I don't know about sisterhood.

I wouldn't dare calling her sister. She was way too intimidating. And how do you feel about, you know, I suppose the younger women in the fashion industry today, do you feel, you know, that dynamic that you and Diana potentially had, is that something that you were sort of doing with younger women? Oh, yes, yes, yes, absolutely. But also young designers. I was the chairman of the Council of Fashion Designer for 13 years.

So, you know, not just women, but mentoring in general, yes. This podcast is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish Cream. Bayleys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bailey's is the perfect adult treat, whether in coffee, over ice cream, or paired with your favorite book. Enjoying the women's prize for fiction podcast?

share the literary love and be part of the future of the Women's Prize Trust by making a one-off donation to support our important workers to charity. Donations of all sizes help us to continue empowering women, regardless of their age, race, nationality or background to raise their voice and own their story. Search for Support the Women's Prize to find out more. So your fourth bookshelfy is cast by Isabel Wilkerson. Can you please tell us what cast is about and what Isabel Wilkerson means when she says the word cast?

It's about race, really. And I read that book. Actually, I did read it on audio that book. And what I love the most about her is the way, I mean, her writing is so brilliant because she writes so deep. and yet she stays so detached. So she has a certain detachment that I found incredibly powerful. And, you know, she's never emotional.

And I love that. That's what I love the most about her book. Thank you. And you know how early you mentioned that, you know, it was in hindsight, to be honest, when you sort of were engaging with the Me Too movement that you realized how potentially sexist

the fashion industry had been when you were coming up. Did this book potentially make you think more on your privilege in terms of white privilege and position within this system? Yeah, yes, yes. And she describes it also like about Indian. I mean, she really talks about cast more than race. And it's, and I, of course, I am so not like that. I really believe that people should all mix, mix, mix.

The more we mix, the better. And, you know, my children are half Jewish and have, you know, aristocrat. And I believe in mixing. But what really strong me about that book is her dignity and her strength and her, she never, you know, you feel like she would never get watery eyes, you know. She is, and there's a certain detachment. that is so powerful. Owning it is accepting who you are.

So accepting it, but also detaching yourself from anything that's like shame or insecurity or all of that. And I guess that now that I'm thinking about it, looking back, I guess that in a weird way is the common thread of all of the books that I've told you about. It's all about, you know, being strong. And I like that detachment, you know, it's, I don't know, I guess there's a common thread between all of these books and all of these women. So in your latest book, you encourage women to own their imperfections in order to make them an asset. What would you say are your own imperfections and how have you been able to own them? My imperfections, oh my God, I have so many. No, no.

I mean, I mean, listen, I mean, you know, for me it started with, I mean, anything from curly hair. you know, that took me so long to accept, to accept anything, being diagnosed with cancer, doing, I mean, all of the things that happen in a lifetime that are not pleasant. And you say, okay, well, we got to own it. Or, you know, facing the pandemic and having to close, you know, most of all my stores and things like that that are very, very difficult to do. but you just have to own it. You just have to do it. And once you own it, then, you know, you deal with it. And then other things open up. And sometimes those other things are, you know, better.

And then you turn it around and say, oh, my God, I can't believe it. It all started with a bad thing. But whatever, what I like about this book is that, first of all, I was going to write it as a prose book. You know, somebody asked me to do this book as a book of, you know, share my wisdom and share my advice and blah blah blah and then as i wrote it as as a prose i thought it was so boring and uh and condescending and that's when all of a sudden i i made the list of all these words and then within the words whether it's a short definition or a little anecdote or sometimes it's

serious and sometimes it's fun but it all leads to the same thing and owning it and and i i i really, I mean, I'm quite proud. I mean, I've done other books before, but this is like, I'm almost embarrassed to call it a book. It's like a little guide. It's just, you know, words that you can keep next to your bed and you're open any time. And what is wonderful is you could read it to children, you know, and it's really, and as a matter of fact, it's the Generation X, X, no, Z, that is really reacting very much. They love it. I didn't know that when I wrote it, but I can now understand why.

And would you say that owning it is something that you've had to learn to do over time, or is it something that you've always been quite good at? I didn't know. No, I mean, I guess I knew it without knowing it. You know, the whole own it is very recent using that word. what like when people asked me what did you want to do when you were growing up I didn't know what I wanted to do but I knew the kind of woman I wanted to be I wanted to be in charge and then when people ask me who you designed for I say for women in charge so in charge was much more present it was like the umbrella of everything I did of the DVF awards of when I celebrate all the things I do for work for women and but I realized that first of all in charge could be aggressive and I have to every time explain it's not aggressive to be in charge as a commitment to ourselves is owning who we are and then all over and over and over as I was

describing more this in charge and turning it into a movement that's when I realized that all the things I say always end up with owner you know which in French is assumed And so this book originally was supposed to be called in charge And then it turned into owner And you've spoken about how much it's resonating with Gen Z And I think that's been what's so integral and central to your legacy Just the fact that you've managed to remain so timeless throughout And relevant throughout

And what advice, I suppose, would you give To having that sort of timeless success And being able to speak across generations because it's not something that many people can do. I don't see the difference very much with, you know, even children. I treat children I grown up, always do. And me, I'm an old woman now, but I'm still. So I think that when people ask me who is the DVF woman,

I think the DVF woman is the woman that I became when I was 28. Because at 28, I became the woman I wanted to be. And so I had pretty much touched everything. And so that woman, that spirit of being on your own, on being in charge and all of that, that is what stayed in me. And that woman is still in me, even though now I have the other woman with all the experience and everything else. But the core of the core of the woman is the same.

It's a woman in charge, a woman who owns it. That's what gave me a lot of satisfaction, personal satisfaction to, when I finished this book, because coherence is so important to me, like, you know, the books in your library, the food in your refrigerator, the kind of friends you have. You know, that all reflects who you are. And so what I like about this book when I finished it is that it was so coherent. So it's like a weave, you know. Every word says the same thing and it can weave into a fabric.

Thank you so much. Another thing that I think is very integral to you as a person is philanthropy. And I'm interested in why it's so important to you. And when you first realized there was something that you could do to make a big difference and to make that part of your work. You know, philanthropy, when you were young, when I first came here and people talk about philanthropy, it's very terrifying. You know, it's a little bit like landscaping. You know, you need expert. I don't know what to do, you know.

Or it's being a volunteer in a hospital, which I couldn't do. But then you understand, you know, you know what you're interested and you know where you can help. And then philanthropy becomes part of who you are. I don't like to detach it from who we are. And that's why, you know, it's about compassion. It's about empathy. It's about sharing what you know in order to make others. being the women they want to be.

So it's all linked. I mean, it's not, you know, this is my philanthropy versus this is. It's all one big, one big, views fan. And we're on to your fifth and final book, Shelfy this week, which is

Blowout by Rachel Maddo. Can you tell me about this book and why you love it? Well, it's about the energy, It's about Oklahoma and the fracking But it's not so much what it is about But what I love about Rachel Maddo Is she is angry and she's an activist And she talks about it

And she's loud and she's not afraid And so the reason I choose that book It's because of activism And not just activism about equality for women but activism in terms of injustice. And I think that the activism is very, very important to fight inequality, abuse and violence. That's what I like about that.

And you've spoken about how she's angry and she's loud and she's unafraid to discuss these issues. But she's angry in a very intelligent way. She's not just angry because she proves her point. She does research. But I love her voice. I love her voice. And that's again, all the women that I gave you, all these authors, they all carry the flag.

They all carry the flag of freedom. You know, the survivor Simone de Beauvoir carries the flag. Gloria Stein and Fe, you know, Isabelle and now Rachel. They all carry the flag. And it's the flag of freedom. There's so much going on in the world. I mean, there always has been, but I think with social media

and the conversations we're having around activism and injustice, it feels even more prevalent. What one issue, despite there being so many, would you say you feel most passionately sort of angry about and want to draw attention to right now? Oh, well, I hate the fact that, you know, this fake truth. I mean, you know, it's very important that we do not lose the value of truth

because if we lose the value of truth, then we've lost everything. Definitely. And there's been a lot more focused recently in the fashion industry around, you know, sustainability. What do you think the industry needs to do to ensure, you know, the planet for future generations? Well, I think that consumerism went so far, you know, And we have to think. We can't just do sell, sell, sell things that people throw, throw, throw.

I mean, my excuse, I mean, when people talk to me about that and my fashion, is that somehow I create clothes that people don't throw away. I mean, you know, they're always the best sellers in any vintage dresses. If you go in a vintage shop, you will find a dress that has already had three-gen, three owners, three generation, and it still sold the same price. So, but I think that, you know, to take care of our, I mean, we take everything from nature. We eat everything. We empty the soil.

We take the minerals. I mean, you know, so obviously we cannot continue to do that. Absolutely. And is that something you think about even more, given the fact that, you know, you're a grandmother. Is that something that, you know, I suppose the future of the planet, does that feel like a more important conversation given the fact that you are? Of course, of course, of course. Do you feel like your grandchildren are more politically active?

Yes, yes, yes. I would say that my grandchildren who are now almost, you know, 19, 20 and 21, they are definitely more politically correct. and politically engaged than the generation before them for sure. Do they involve you in it ever? Oh yeah, yeah, no, no. We're very, they carry the flags too. That's good.

So you've said before, I am now in the part of my life. That is my third act. What do you mean when you say that? And what do you hope to achieve in this, your latest stage of life? Well, I mean, it's my third act because I am an older woman. and therefore I am at the, if I'm lucky at the sunset of my life. And so what is important for me now is to leave, you know, I have left my personal legacy with five grandchildren and two children

and, you know, telling them and leaving them as much knowledge as I have. With my brand, I try to do that too. but what is really most important right now for me is to use my voice and my knowledge, my experience, and my connection and my resources in order to help others. And that's why I write books and that's why I talk to you and that's why I repeat the same thing over and over by hoping to, you know, inspire others. and you inspire people not by, oh, yes, she's successful. You inspire people by telling them about your vulnerabilities

and about the obstacles and about that because everyone can relate to that. And so, you know, it's to pass on the flag. Thank you so much, Diane. So I have one last question for you, which is if you had to choose just one book from your list, as your favorite, which book would it be and why would it be your favorite?

This is the hardest bit. I probably would go to the first one, to Simon Vale, because the survivor, because her story is my mother's story, even though my mother didn't become a politician, but I took over. And it's the story of a woman who survived the worst and who turned around and became a mother and a politician and a voice for women and

everything. Thank you so much, Deanne. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. I'm Yomiya Degu K and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Head to our website www.women'spriceforfiction.com.com. UK where you can discover this year's short list of six incredible books. Please rate and review this podcast. It's the easiest way to help spread the word about the female talent you've heard about today. Thanks very much for listening and see you next time.