Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S3 Ep8: SHORTLIST BOOKCLUB SPECIAL: The Vanishing Half and No One Is Talking About This

Episode Date: May 19, 2021

Raven Smith, Otegha Uwagba and Yassmin Abdel-Magied join Yomi to dive into two books from this year's Women's Prize for Fiction shortlist, The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett and No One Is Talking About This by Patricia Lockwood. Raven Smith is a fashion columnist and author of Trivial Pursuits, Otegha Uwagba is the former founder of the working women’s network Women Who and author of three incredible books - Little Black Book, We Need to Talk About Money and Whites: On Race and Other Falsehoods and Yassmin Abdel-Magied is a writer, engineer and award-winning social advocate. They discuss (and debate!) two of the incredible books from the 2021 Women’s Prize shortlist - in our very own book club where you can learn more about the six titles selected for this year’s prize. Every week, join journalist and author Yomi Agedoke, and inspirational guests including Elizabeth Day, Sara Pascoe and Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie as they celebrate the best books written by women. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and has been running for over 25 years, and this series will offer unique access to the shortlisted authors and the 2021 Prize winner.  This podcast is produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, my name is Wendy and I'm a care worker for Josh. Hello, my name is Josh. Wendy is my care worker. Working with Josh is so joyous. To support him with all these emotional needs and the things he loves to do, which is singing and dancing, it is the most rewarding, satisfying job you could ever wish to have.

Wendy is amazing. Search Care Care Care Care Now for a job made with understanding, made with teamwork, made with care. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Yomiya Degra Kay, your host for Season 3 of the Women's Prize Podcast. And this is one of three very special book club editions

where we're exploring the 2021 Women's Prize Shortlist. Hello and welcome to this special edition of the Women's Prize podcast. I'm really excited to say, that I'm joined today by three amazing guests, the hilarious fashion columnist and author Raven Smith, the incredible Otega Awagba, former founder of the Working Women's Network, Women Who,

an author of three incredible books, Little Black Book, We Need to Talk About Money and Whites, on Race and Other Falshards. And last, but by no means least, writer, engineer, and award-winning social advocate, Yasmin Abdel-Majid. Hi.

They're all here to discuss, compare and contrasts two of the brilliant books from the Women's Prize Shortlist. Our very own book club where you can learn more about the title selected for this year's prize and hopefully get reading some of them if you haven't already. All right. So this episode we are discussing The Vanishing Half by Britt Bennett and no one is talking about this by Patricia Lockwood.

So I want you guys to tell me about the experience of reading these two books concurrently. Otega, of course I'm picking on you. What was your initial reaction? Can I practically hear that swallowing? What was your initial reaction reading them? I found Britt Bennett's book just really, what I really liked about it is that it introduced me to an element of American racial history that I was aware of,

but I felt like it really kind of humanised that by, you know, weaving in these personal narratives. And there was a lot of sort of, it's really, I like novels that have a lot of plot that have, you know, really kind of strong characters. you don't really know where it's going and and the vanishing half definitely offers that. So, so I really enjoyed that. And as for the Patricia Lockwood, I just found it quite funny because it's such a very online

book and I am a very online person. Like I, you know, I'm not a Twitter celebrity by any means, but I do spend a lot of time by now. But I don't take up. You don't. Sorry, I actually want you for you guys to jump in and correct. What is community? No.

So, yeah, so I myself, I'm a bit of a Twitter celebrity. so it was just like interesting to see that experience reflected back at me in novels. I'm joking, but it's just interesting because there's so many things, you know, they were a little like, it's a very current book. Like I wonder how it will feel to read it in a couple of years because there's like an example she gives in it about how she washes her legs carefully in the shower because she recently saw online that people don't wash their legs. Right.

I was like that is so tied to a specific moment in the discourse. So like it's almost like a time capsule. But yeah, I thought that. I thought they were very interesting. Thanks so much, Ottega. And Raven, how did you feel reading them? Like, did you feel like they were removed from each other? Or did you feel like they sort of spoke to each other in some way?

Oh, good question. I felt that they were definitely felt like separate entities to me. When I was reading the Brit Bennett, I felt that for me, the stark difference is very much that the Brit Bennett feels like it's covering decades and you're really investing in a saga of a family over, I want to say millennia, but like, you know, a significant period of time, like any kind of solid novel. And for me, the Patricia Lockwood felt like such a snapshot.

And I loved the contradiction of those two things in each book. And I agree with Patricia Lockwood feeling, I think we all spend so much time online. I'm too, a very online person. And something I hate to do is to come offline and read a book about being online. But it felt like such a, just the lyricism of how she spoke about the portal and the new way to laugh instead of typing lull. Like I was thinking of sick, tick, sick, sick, sick. So for me, it just really spoke.

The fact you all know what that is. Oh my God, I've died. This is so tragic. Why do we all know that? Or should I say, six, six, six, six. She doesn't actually say it, does she? She just says the new way to laugh. So I thought I've loved, I loved being inside the book with her,

rather than reading six, six, six, tick, suck, suck, suck. It felt like I was in a club. And I also think it transitioned beautifully from this very sort of shallow, frothy online world that essentially is a huge part of our lives into a narrative that felt much more kind of physical and visceral and, you know, I don't want to give any spoilers, but it became a book about her physical experience, which it didn't start as. Thank you, Raven.

Yasmin, did you feel that you particularly connected to any of the characters? And if so, why? And if not, then why not? gosh yeah i mean with the patricia lockwood i felt i almost felt like i was being read like i was it was almost a little too uncomfortable because um i was like is there too much of is there a side of me that that is being reflected back to me in this narrator that i actually quite dislike and does that mean there's something in me that i dislike i don't know i actually found that really quite uncomfortable

I think the The Vanishing Half, I mean, I think Britt Bennett is an incredible writer and almost, almost like, I'm like, how does she have auntie levels of storytelling? Like, and she's, you know, she's a peer and she's got this way of telling a story that feels epic. Our first book is The Vanishing Half by Britt Bennett. Now, here is a reading by our 2021 Chair of Judges Bernardine Everisto. The Vanishing Half by Brits Bennett. In Mallard, you grew up hearing stories about folks who pretended to be white. Warren Photonaut, riding a train in the white section, and when a suspicious porter questioned him,

speaking enough French to convince him that he was a swore the European. Malena Goudo, becoming white to earn her teaching certificate. Luther Thibudu, whose forefell, Norman marked him white and gave him more pay. Passing like this from moment to moment was funny, heroic even. Who didn't want to get over on white folks for a change? But the past Blanc were a mystery. You could never meet one who'd passed over undetected. The same way, you'd never know someone who successfully faked her own death. The act could only be successful if no one ever discovered it was a ruse. Desiree only knew the failures, the ones who got in homesick or caught

or tired of pretending. But for all Desiree knew, Stella had lived white for half her life now, and maybe acting for that long ceased to be acting altogether. Maybe pretending to be white eventually made it so. So for our listeners that haven't actually yet read the vanishing half by Britt Bennett. Raven, can you please do us the honour of telling us what this book is about briefly? I'm going to try and do it justice. This book is about twin, identical twin girls and they grew up in a town called Mandel. Is it Mandel? Malar. I've stumbled already. They grew up in a town called Maraud. Okay, identical twin girls growing up in a town called Mallard. that everyone is mixed raised, but they appear, they look like they're white, essentially.

Their mom takes them out of school and rather than to like work in the town, so they run away to California together, these two twins. And then one of them runs away from the other one and goes to live a new life. Is that enough of a plot summary without spoiling it? That is more than enough. Thank you very much, Raven. Appreciate that. Marlard Here we go I was about to jump in and be like are you missed out all this stuff

and there I mean I was those would have been spoilers Yeah I was not actually Yeah well actually She does this Otega Considering you know you wanted to cut in there

I will give you the floor Which is what do you think About the concept of Mallard As a place And why do you think that potentially I suppose Desiree You know even after all the years Because you know she they move away

and she comes back, why do you think she goes back to live there? I found the idea of a place like Mallard existing really surreal to the point of almost feeling like it was almost like an element of like magical realism to the book, which I know it's not that kind of book, but I was like, I cannot imagine a town full of people who are so light-skinned.

Black-white people, essentially. Yeah, to the point where they cast as white, but I just can't imagine that. And in a way that it didn't, I mean, obviously they were still dealing with racism, but it just did not, that to me seemed really extraordinary. I was wondering whether there was any real historical context for that. Obviously, I know that, you know, back in that period, a lot of, you know, there are cases in which very, very light-skinned black people decided to pass as white. But I was wondering whether there was actual historical context for there being like an actual whole community of people like that. So I found that very surreal. I couldn't wrap my head around it.

But in terms of, you know, Desiree leaving and deciding to return, like she didn't really return by choice, did she? Like, she returned because she was compelled to by various reasons. And then I guess, you know, once you're there, it feels familiar. There's a lot to be said for familiarity and for home. And, you know, in many other ways, her life wasn't working out for, wasn't working out how she wanted it to. So I can see why she went back.

that even if it's just kind of like economic necessity. I did, I just actually wanted to pick up on something as been said earlier about Stemma's decision to kind of disappear in the way that she did because I definitely felt that that's something that I could and would have chosen back at that time. Like I really understood that. And I can see how when that option is open to you,

as it was to her, to escape the kind of insane, oppression that we're dealing with. It's like, yeah, I can see why people did that. But then I also feel like Yasmin, I don't necessarily know that's something. I'm not really good at keeping secrets. I don't necessarily know that's something that I would have been able to keep, you know, for the rest of my life.

That sense of release that you kind of... Yeah, I live for that. I'm always blurting shit out. Otega, that's good to know, considering you know everything about me. I'm like, I'm going to have to rethink. What do you have to ever told this? Oh, okay, we'll talk about that after the pop. I feel about myself.

Let me rule that. I'm about myself personally. Like, I feel like I can't keep things on my conscience. Sure. All right. Raven, what do you think, Britt Bennett has to say about the way in which, you know, we perform our identities?

I think there's a lot in terms of the theme of performance in this book. What do you think? There's something about it that there's nothing immediately relatable about the decisions that a lot of the characters make. For me, this entire book is every character is escaping. They're all running away from something. I think what's so refreshing about Jude is that she's genuinely searching for something.

She's moving towards some kind of truth rather than escaping a reality. And I think that is relatable. I've totally forgotten your question because I had that point to me. But I also, I just, um, yeah, but I also think part of me was like, this is a book, you know, the early stages of this book set in the 50s and oh, of course, the such awful, awful difficult times, but part of me was also like, this notion of wanting to fit in and pass, it isn't, you know, isn't completely gone. The opportunity to have an easier life is quite as, quite a thrilling moral.

conundrum, really. Yasmin, what did you think about the scenes in which Loretta Walker and her family move across the street rather from Stella? Did you have any sort of sympathy with her reaction at all or not? With Loretta's or Stellars?

With Stellars. Gosh, it was actually, I remember when I started reading those scenes, I was like, oh, I'm so nervous, what's going to happen? Like, I very, I felt like you know, I felt nervous for Stella. I wondered what, you know, she would do.

And then obviously, again, not to spoil things, she reacted in ways that were like almost disappointing. You're like, oh, I thought you might be better than this or I kind of, I see what's happened. And you also, like we also understand Stella herself being almost disappointed in herself, but wanting to also protect what she's created, this kind of world she's created and and it I think when people have big, big secrets, they do all sorts of things to protect those secrets and sometimes you get to a point where you don't know what you are

without that secret. And so and then there was also another side of me that was like, babes just tell her, you know, but of course you can't, right? Of course you can like you can't. And so you're left in this, I mean, it's the great literary device of putting a character in an impossible situation and seeing what that tells you about that character. And I read somewhere, which I thought was quite interesting, that a lot of, you know, this is a very American book to me, the idea of being very white passing, but still being black, and the story of passing or not passing is very American. There's also, that being said, you know, having grown up in Australia, there's also a story

of whiteness or white passingness. I should say, happening with First Nations, indigenous communities in Australia. And that's a whole, it doesn't have necessarily the same mythology around it as it does in the United States, but it's interesting to kind of see it in that context. All of this being quite different to where I was born, Sudan, where the concept of passing or not passing is not really,

well, it's, there's no story or mythology around it at all, I think. So reading this to me actually felt like getting a very specific glimpsed into a very specific American story, rather than a broad story of race, which for me to feel feels quite rich, because when I place it within that context, it tells me about a country. Did anyone else have like a problem with, like this,

just to go to Yasmin's point about Desiree, Desiree, I was so, like, I felt so conflicted. I was like, you've made one really, like, she starts in this like this game of passing, and it's, I felt that energy of like, he-ha, trickster, you've infiltrated this other world. Like, I felt that, the fun of it, the naughtiness, right? And then it just is, just, it's so awful.

Hide, keeping a secret like that, like, makes her awful. And I was like, stop being. please stop being awful. Just give it up, man. I felt like I couldn't do. Like I, I, if I have something, and Yomi knows as well, if I have something on my chest, if I have something on my mind, I have to say it.

And so that's the bit for me that I, I really, really struggled with because I couldn't imagine keeping that seat for so long. And also because it, it was like a cancer. Like it really, and I was just like, she's not enjoying life. Like to me, it felt like, you know, there's this tradeoff that she's made.

So she's, the price was high. And I always, to me, it didn't seem like it was worth it. So like what you've cut off your entire family, you've cut off your twin sister. In order to, you know, have this, I guess, easy life, easy, bougie life. Constantly looking over your shoulder. You're constantly in fear. You know, you're emotionally just not stable, not happy. Like, to me, it didn't feel like it was worth it.

And I feel like, essentially, especially as time continued. So maybe in the first couple of months or years of it, there was a relief. But by the time we kind of encounter her, you know, in the second half of the book, I'm just like,

is it really worth it? Yeah, and it doesn't make her a nice person, as Raven says, like, she actually becomes the worst version of herself. Right. Like, it's not like she's a nice white lady.

No. No. She's not doing any, she's not infiltrating the, the enemy camp and turning heads around and changing things. And I understand that motivation because, you know, it's very clear that she, in order to distance herself as much as possible from black people and from the potential of being caught out, she obviously felt like she needs to do that in every sense of the word.

So it's like it makes it makes it far less likely that someone might kind of put two and two together because she's basically racist. You know, so I get that from like a strategic point of view, but from a spiritual point of view. it just seemed so impoverished, like such an impoverished way to live life. So I struggle with that. I don't know if I was satisfied or not. I sort of like that because we have so much redemption in, you know, fiction. Just let it, let, leave me feeling awful.

Go on, do it. So just some of the things that you guys spoke about, I think they really apply to Kennedy and Jude, the cousins, and how different their lives are. But also the fact that like Kennedy is really privileged, but Jude genuinely seems like more well-rounded and happier. And I'm interested in whether you guys kind of like, I'm going to ask each and every one of you.

I'll start with you, Otega, in whether you feel sorry for Kennedy or Jude or both of them. That's a good question. I don't feel... I feel a little bit sorry for Kennedy in that she, her mother has held her at a distance all of her life and she doesn't really understand why. And that must be painful.

And like, obviously the way the book Carbara, is that she gets a rationale for that, but, you know, growing up as like a kid, teenager, young adult and having that kind of distance with your mother, that's very traumatising. So I definitely feel sorry for her in that sense. Jude, she seems well-rounded and able to kind of cope with and navigate the, like, station in life that she finds herself in. So to an extent I don't feel like

I pity her in that sense and I actually feel like she seems like someone who's like just going to go on and be fine in life

she seems well emotionally adjusted so that's probably where I stand on that thanks Otega and you Raven I mean obviously this is now

a Jude fan club but there's something about I think there's this bigger thing for me is that Jude is is Jude and her mum, they accept their lot. And that is such a big thing to just, like, you have, like,

to have any kind of happiness. You just have to accept what, what the, you have to play the cards you're dealt. And I think what we're looking at with, um, what's the face running off is that she's just basically, parroting something she thinks is better than what she's got. But I mean, I find that really hard.

And I think Kennedy is just a product of that. Kennedy seems to have quite a sort of privileged, but very flimsy existence. Because she's just been born out of a lie. It's just like, she's like, and even, like, doesn't she reconcile with herself that her mom just doesn't really tell her the truth? I mean, that's quite a tough thing to just...

That is tough. And I know people who've had, like, parents, you know, keep family secrets from that and as a result have felt like a distance or like a gap in their relationship and then they find out whatever the family secret is and they're like oh okay well now that makes sense

you know so but up until they find out what it is and then obviously when you find out what secret is you know how you navigate that you know is up for grabs but definitely the period in which there was this secret they didn't know what it was they just saw the effects of it

on their family dynamic and on their relationship but didn't really have anything to kind of explain it away. That's very, very difficult for people to deal with. And I've seen people that I know deal with that. So, yeah, I think that's why in that sense, I do feel a bit sorry for Kennedy. And Yasmin? Yeah, I'm like quite torn regarding how I feel about Kennedy.

One would hope that in a healthy society, we all have those kinds of healthy relationships with our parents and caregivers, right? And so I can very much recognize that kind of, they're both products of the relationship with their mothers. And almost, to me, it also kind of speaks to the cost of, you know, those secrets, but also the costs of the choices we make as individuals, the impact that that has on our offspring's ability to then go through the world.

You know, no matter what material privilege Kennedy has, she still can't get over the fact that she can't get something from her mother that she feels like she needs, right? And that is, you know, that plus lots of other things are limiting her ability to like be a fully actualised human being. Whereas Jude's, her existence has been very interrupted by all sorts of things. But she definitely seems like a much more mature person, like someone who has their, like, you know, has their life together or at the very least knows what they want and knows themselves. And that, I think, is, like, something that's vital as, as, like, as an adult, as somebody

who can make their way through the world, as somebody who can kind of realize their full potential, all these, like, great things that we want. And it's, so, so it's, yeah, I think I kind of, like, felt pity for Kennedy, and I felt that Jude would feel offended if I felt pity for her. This podcast is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish Queen. Bailey's is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books

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donations of all sizes help us to continue empowering women, regardless of their age, race, nationality or background, to raise their voice and own their story. Search for Support the Women's Prize to find out more. Hi, my name is Marion. I have used a wheelchair for about nine years. I don't know where I'll be without my amazing care worker, Jessica. Every day at home, she helps me feel more and more like myself and like I have control of my life. life. My name's Jessica and I love my job working with Mariam. Every day is different. You're there for a support, not just physically but mentally as well. It's a really fulfilling job and I wouldn't change it for anything. Search Care Care Care for a job made with understanding, made with teamwork, made with care. You're listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, a special edition discussing the 2021

Women's Prize Shortlist. Our second book is No One's Talking About this by Patricia Lockwood. And here is a reading from one of this year's judges, Elizabeth Day. No one is talking about this, Patricia Lockwood. There was a new toy. Everyone was making fun of it, but then it was said to be designed for autistic people, and then no one made fun of it anymore, but made fun of the people who were making fun of it previously. Then someone else discovered a stone version from a million years ago in some museum,

and this seemed to prove something. Then the origin of the toy was revealed to have something to do with Israel and Palestine, and so everyone made a pact, never to speak of it again. And all of this happened in the space of like four days. She opened the portal. Are we all just going to keep doing this till we die? People were asking each other. As other days they asked each other, are we in hell?

Not hell, she thought, but some fluorescent room with eternally outdated magazines where they waited to enter the memory of history, paging through a copy of Louisiana Parent or Horse Illustrated. Yasmin, would you mind please giving us a short summary about what this is about? It's essentially a book in two parts. The first is the main character, the narrator, who's unnamed, is essentially this sort of social media person,

like influencer-esque type. She, the whole first half is kind of about her existence on the, quote, quote, portal, which is essentially Twitter. And, you know, what happens on Twitter, what happens off Twitter as she kind of travels the world talking about Twitter? And then we get these two texts from her mother, which is something has gone wrong and how soon can you get here? And then the second half is about this like kind of traumatic thing that's happening in real

life that rips her out of this portal online space. But also, you know, she's still got a connection to that. but it changes her relationship with it. That sounds like a very good summary. Thank you very much, Yasmin. I'm so genuinely interested in what you guys made of this book. I'm going to get to what the, in terms of how the book was written in a moment,

but especially as people who are, you know, quite visible on the portal, so to speak, how did you feel? I hope that throat clear is for you also because I'm like, that applies to all. That points to meet you. I'm like this whole square. So how did you guys feel reading it?

And because I suppose your experience as people who are visible on that platform would be quite different potentially to, and as people who are very online, to people who are reading it and aren't. So let's start with you, Raven. Oh, sure. My, what am I thinking about when I was reading this book? I mean, the portal is essentially Twitter, but I'm, you know, a bit of an Instagram monster. And I've just felt that, I felt that feeling that you have when you're scrolling where everything is happening at once, that time is irrelevant and you are thinking, you are looking at someone's lunch that they're having right now and, you know, a picture of Paris Hilton's sex tape.

Like this, like, now and then just ceases to exist. And I think what the book set up beautifully was that feeling of like, this is all just happening all the time. And she doesn't really seem, there's like, there's small interactions that take her out of it, that she's kind of like in and out. And I don't think, is she a social media star? Does she just do one God tweet? And it's just, it just ripples out forever.

She just like really milks it, right? She really milks that one viral post. Yeah, but part of me is like, one day that viral post will touch all of us and we'll just be like, well, this just ran and ran. Of all the crap I said that was in my head in the last five years, somebody went for the can the dog be twins? But I just thought it was just, I think for me, I loved being in that moment,

but just before it became something that was kind of traditionally, the internet is a complex and constantly fireworks are going off. It moved into this place of like, kind of body terror, which I was like, this is not what I was expecting from a book that is talking about, you know, the infinite scroll of life. I think that I find that it was a really kind of like sort of spot on observation, I think, in the book is how on the internet everything has afforded the same level of importance. So you can be scrolling through Twitter, you know, as I have been forever. And, you know, at the moment, people are

talking about the situation in Palestine. And then two tweets later, someone is saying, please inject the vaccine in my butt. And they're getting the same level of traction. Often, like, these two tweets about complete different things, getting the same level of traction. And it does become quite hard. Obviously, like, you know, I have a sense of the kind of importance

of those things in relation to each other. But it becomes quite hard to kind of make space in your mind. mind for everything. So all of those things equally occupy your mind. I sometimes feel like human beings weren't made to digest and absorb this much information. I think Twitter is one of the most kind of, um, it's like one of the key culprits of that because I don't feel as overwhelmed if I'm just reading the newspapers or watching the news, but I do feel overwhelmed with the internet. And specifically with this book, I wonder with books like this and I'm trying to think of a couple of others, but definitely with this book,

I wonder what the reading experience is like for someone who isn't very online or who doesn't have Twitter. Because as I say, like, you know, even within the first couple of pages, there are like peppering of jokes and references that I think are only clear to you, not even if you're just on Twitter, like in a casual way, but you have to be on Twitter a lot to get them. Yeah, this is someone who's extremely online, right? Extremely online.

And I'm like that. It's still quite like a small. proportion and also extremely online within a certain like corner of society because I don't necessarily think that kind of like right wing bright bar types much necessarily you know something that I'm also kind of really conscious of is my little corner of Twitter which is what I think is like the whole of Twitter is not it's actually just one section of it and there's a whole another section of Twitter and and the most obvious example that I can think of is the kind of let's say like right wing conservative kind of shot job.

which just don't come into my viewpoint at all, there's like a whole bunch of people who probably aren't aware of leg washing jokes. So like, is this really going to resonate with them? So I think that's, I almost feel like maybe the audience is quite like a small kind of media Twitter niche. To your point, I think it is very self-referential in that way. And I think Raven mentioned this earlier.

I don't know if I want to spend time reading about Twitter when I'm reading a book, and I found it, I didn't actually enjoy it. I don't think that's a reflection on how good a book it is or how well it's written, because I think it's incredibly like some of the lines are like Chef's Kiss, you know, like you can tell that this is somebody who knows how to craft very, like, witty,

ironic satirical takes, lots of things I found funny ha ha ha, etc. But I didn't necessarily feel like I enjoyed the process of reading a book that felt like Twitter. I enjoyed the kind of irony of her witty, irreverent tapes on this. this community founded on witty, reverent tapes. It's like she wasn't just saying, and then everyone did this certain meme. She was, it does feel like...

No, she's very good at what she does. I think she did it really well. Her body dysmorphia. No, but she did give us this, like, yeah, I think you're right. I didn't necessarily enjoy seeing it play out again, but it's brilliantly written. It's not just like a report of what happened.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, it's clearly, it's also somebody that like knows the world very well, can take the piss out of the world very well and can still do it in a way. Like sometimes I was like, oh, come on, we're not that. We're not like that, are we? But of all the times that I'm scrolling and suddenly I'm like, what are you doing?

I was feeling like that for her for the whole time. What are you doing? Give it up. Your husband's come to kiss you on. neck and you're talking to yourself. What are you doing? So I think it felt poignant in a sad and very real way. What did you guys think about how the book is actually structured? Because it is quite experimental and, you know, sort of like a stream of consciousness scroll thing without like conventional chapters. And you both kind of spoken about not necessarily enjoying, reading about the Twitter

experience, so to speak, but did you enjoy the way it had been sort of laid out and structured and written? I think it was. I think it was. the way to, in my mind, to critique a book is not to say, was it enjoyable for me or my taste or not, but like, does it do the job that the author intended it to? And I think, yeah, definitely, because the way that you engage with this text is the way that you engage with the quote-unquote portal or the internet or Twitter. So, you know, and also, it's also interesting in part two when she's dealing with this really profound experience to still be in that same form and to feel that kind of like jarring nature of a mind going from one thing to the next,

not always finishing sentences, not always finishing thoughts. I think, yeah, I definitely thought that kind of lent a texture to it that made me feel like it brought something else to the experience of reading it. Well, I like a thriller. So for me, the vanishing half, for example, I enjoyed it. I was absorbing what was going on. but the second the net started to close in, I was like, oh, this is it, this is it.

So that's when it started to really speak to me and my sensibility. And I felt like what this Patricia Lockwood has done with this book is, it just, there is a plot, but you are just kind of drowning in the constant punctuation of being online. You never get a real like, you never get a breath. You know, like, when you watch like a 90s thriller and they like dial up on the internet and type in into a search bar? It's like, this book represents what it's like now, which is like there is no moment when you're not, where your life comes out of online. It just is this rolling thing.

And I think it was, you could see how her life was functioning before the big event. And in the event, I liked that it's just a. felt even more absurd that online was just ticking away next to everything else. Just felt so odd that she was, and yet so normal that she would still be just reading all this crap, basically. There is a bit where Lockwood sort of talks about the pressure on women to adjust to, you know, their appearance to fit social norms. And there is that constant question of whether social media helps or hinders, you know,

feminism, modern day feminism and, you know, our ideas of beauty. Because on the one hand, you have, you know, lots of different beauty types and body types being normalized, but on the other hand, you have quite a rigid sort of sense of what a woman should look like. So what are your thoughts? Let's start with you, Otega. I don't think it helps in terms of diversifying our concept of female beauty. I think there's a lot of chatter about that. And I think there are a lot of platforms and conversations that try to kind of, I guess, display women who don't necessarily fit into the more traditional kind of concept of female beauty. But often I find that those women are still actually very traditionally beautiful. I think what a lot of these conversations miss

is that instead of trying to diversify the concept, the concept of female beauty, we should be trying to downplay its importance overall. So instead of trying to say everyone is beautiful, no matter what you look like, we should be saying, why does it matter if a woman is beautiful? And I feel like that gets really, really lost on Instagram, especially because at the end of the day, the things that perform well on Instagram,

the algorithms, things that are, people that are aesthetically pleasing. So even when I see these kind of not straight size or models who, you know, deviate from the norm in certain ways, they often are just still really beautiful women. So I find it quite disingenuous the way that that's talked about.

And that's something that I, you know, would like to talk about more. Raven? Oh, it's such a double-edged sword because I think we are now in a, the portal itself is telling us that if we don't feel good about ourselves, we are lacking in some way. it's like this horrible kind of if you're not online saying how saying you feel good about yourself

then there's there's there's sort of like a I feel like it's all just building the same twisted web I don't know what to say my feeling of like when I go online is I feel much better about myself when I'm offline and I won't it's not like I'll go on Instagram and be like that person

look so lovely, I will just slowly start to feel conscious of not feeling great. And I think that is, it's such a complex system of things that create that. So it's, comparatively central, isn't it? Yeah. And it's like, you know, for me, I, I don't know. I just want to, I want to make people laugh. So there is this, I want to be in, create this in joke. But that again is like,

It still leaves you feeling lacking in some way. It also gives you this impetus to constantly kind of put yourself online. It becomes more and more. It's much less voyeuristic, isn't it? That sense of community is also a sense of like pushing yourself out there, you know, the age of personal brand. And I think that is also dangerous. It's all, I mean, I'm trying to think of a positive.

But I worry that. because of the democratization of how we've decided to, you know, the democratization of how our media is structured and this idea that everything is functioning on the same level, you actually end up feeling like you need to be on that same kind of plane. I can't really describe it better than that. So did any of the books change your opinion or perspective on anything? I want to give that to Yasmin. I'm not sure the Lockwood book made me feel particularly different about anything, although it made me think, oh, I need to rethink the way that I talk about our relationship

with technology because I don't resonate with this. And there was something that annoyed me, but I haven't put my finger on it. And again, I deeply respect the writing. So it's less about the particular book and more about how it made me feel. And so I'm still trying to kind of like unpick that. I think The Vanishing Half has like played into my questions around what it is to talk about race when we read books that are so very American and sort of United States of America in a global context. Because I think race, you know, as our faith, Stuart Hall always says, is a floating signifier. What does it mean to talk about white passing people who,

who are black and in, what would this, like, how would I have a conversation about this book with my cousins in Sudan, with my friends in Ghana, with my, you know, mates in Australia. Like, it just, it reinvigorated that question of, of how we talk about race in a globalized context when these conversations are often so very focused in the United States. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Jasmine. Which book do you feel you will remember? in years to come, Otega? I think if I return to the Patricia Lockwood, it will probably be that,

just because, as I said earlier, it really does feel like a real kind of time capsule of a certain period of time. And I hope maybe, you know, in five years' time, the way I use the internet and the way I use Twitter in particular will have changed. I assume it will have changed because I think that's just the nature of things. So in a way, it's good to kind of have someone almost kind of document

what the way it exists now. and how it works now. So I think that will probably stick in my mind slightly more. I was going to say I just reread Crudeau by Olivia Lang. So it's about like the Trump coming into power. And it does a similar, like it moves in real time. And it's so interesting to relive it in the kind of not too distant future. Yeah, exactly.

Raven, I'm going to ask this to both of you too also. What book would you recommend by a woman on the subject of society? I wanted to pick Luster by Raven Lilani just because it I think for me I don't want to be a downer but just at this point in lockdown after a year and a bit it's taken

it takes such monumental effort for me to feel transported to another place watching telly listening to audio reading books like for me to not feel you know the nature of the planet it in my bones and Luster took me out of myself really quickly and I just felt I think that it's very seldom that a character I fully empathise with a character but there was so much in that protagonist's way that she interacted with other people but I thought oh I I recognize there was just something there was so many like little sparks of like oh yes oh yes oh yes so that would be my

recommendation thank you raven and yasm so I've got for a recommendation recommendation a book called Border Nation by Leah Cohen. And it's a bit of a serious nonfiction book, but it kind of talks about the ideas of borders. And I'm fascinated as someone who, you know, has a couple of different citizenship, one powerful, one very much not, and is constantly applying for visas,

constantly applying for visas. The ideas of borders, not just as kind of like lines on a map, but as concepts and as, ways of navigating power and so on is really interesting to me. So I think it's, yeah, it's really good. It's not too long either. So if that's something of interest for folks, I really recommend it.

Amazing. Thank you so much. And finally, Otego. Detransition Baby by Tori Peters, which I know was on the long list for this prize. And the thing that I found really interesting and it struck me straight away as soon as I started reading it within the first couple of pages is the extent to which so much of the,

I don't even like to call it a debate, but so much of the discourse around trans identity, because trans people and people who support them are so focused on justifying their existence and their right to exist at such a kind of really base level, maybe this is just me as a sort of non-trans person and it shows my naivety, but like we haven't,

had conversations about like lifestyle or how do you live? And so obviously this book kind of hinges around becoming a parent and parenting as a trans person. And I just thought, wow, I have not even, and this is almost certainly me showing my ignorance, but I just thought I have not even thought about the obstacles and the process and the decision making of whether or not a trans person might want to become a parent in the same way that that's such an obvious

discussion for kind of like cis heteronormative people. It's all that straight people talk about when they get into their 30s is like, oh, am I going to have kids or not? That sort of thing. But I think in many ways, trans people have been denied the right or the ability to have those sorts of conversations because they're literally just fighting for basics and to have the right to exist. And I thought, I just found that really eye-opening and has definitely given me

pause for thought. So yeah. Thank you so much, Otega. Thank you, Yasmin. Thank you, Yomi. Thank you. Thank you. I'm Yomi Adegah K, and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Head to our website www.womensprizefiction.com.uk, where you can discover the rest of this year's shortlist of six incredible books. Please rate and review this podcast. It's the easiest way to help spread the word about the female talent you've heard about today.

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