Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S3 Ep9: Bookshelfie: Paris Lees

Episode Date: May 26, 2021

Journalist and writer Paris Lees tells Yomi why being trans is only part of her identity, as she explores her top five books by women.    Paris is the editor of META, a new publication devoted to gender issues, a contributing editor at British Vogue, she has columns with Gay Times and DIVA and appears in The Guardian, VICE and Pink News. In 2013 she was given the title of most influential LGBT person in Britain and became the first high-profile transgender woman to break into the mainstream media. Her new book, What it Feels Like for a Girl, is a memoir on growing up as a working class child in Nottingham - and it is out now.    Paris’s book choices are: ** The Life and Loves of a She Devil by Fay Weldon ** Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë ** The Color Purple by Alice Walker  ** Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race  by Reni Eddo Lodge  ** Simple Passion by Annie Ernaux Every week, join journalist and author Yomi Agedoke, and inspirational guests, including Elizabeth Day, Sara Pascoe and Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie as they celebrate the best books written by women. The Women’s Prize for Fiction is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and has been running for over 25 years, and this series will offer unique access to the shortlisted authors and the 2021 Prize winner.  This podcast is produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Tom Hanks is Otto. He's seen it all. Otto? Otto? Otto? You don't hear that name very often. I do. He's a man who gets easily annoyed. What are you doing?

Parallel in parking. Parallel to what? He has had enough. Are you always this unfriendly? I am not unfriendly. Okay, you're like a warm cuddle. But he's finding his joy again in the most unlikely place. I'm not sure about this.

He's going to be very fun. A man called Otto only in cinemas now. With thanks to Bailey, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Yomiya Degake, your host for Season 3 of the Women's Prize podcast. We have a phenomenal lineup of guests for 2021, and I guarantee you will be taking away plenty of reading recommendations. Each bookshelfy episode, we ask an inspiring woman to share the story

of her life through five different books by women. Hello and welcome to today's episode of bookshelfy. We are still practicing safe social distancing and this podcast is being recorded remotely. Let me start by reminding you that this year's shortlist is out and the six brilliant authors in their books

can all be found on our website wwwwomenspriceforfiction.com.com. Today's guest is journalists and writer Paris Lees. Paris is the editor of Meta, a new publication devoted to gender issues, a contributing editor at British Vogue. She has columns with the gay times and diva and appears in The Guardian, Vice and Pink News. In 2013, she was given the title of the most influential LGBT person in Britain and became the first high-profile transgender woman to break into the mainstream media. Her new book, What It Feels Like for a Girl, is a memoir on growing up as a working-class kid in Nottingham, and it's out now. This episode contains some strong language.

Welcome to the podcast, Paris. How are you doing today? I am so good. I've been looking forward to this for like the longest time ever. I love you and I love being on this podcast. Your book is out today, the 27th of May. How does it feel for your excellent book? And I do not just say that.

I mean, we've spoken at length about how brilliant and experimental and just interesting, I think it is. How does it feel for it to finally be out in the world? Because you said it was several years in the making. Honestly, it's just like the most surreal experience ever because I feel like it became part of my identity. Like, I'm writing a book. Oh, I can't do this because I'm writing a book.

Can't come out this weekend because I've got a deadline for the book. And it sort of became who I am. And I really, I've got this idea in my head for a fiction piece of like somebody who's just writing a book for the whole life because I literally felt like that that was just who I am now. you know I'm somebody who writes the book so it's it's it's it's it's really surreal and and to have the kind of feedback that the book has received is I'm just I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm a mess I'm crying like every day it is just so overwhelming because I think if you spend seven

years writing a book it's not really enough for people to go oh that was nice you kind of want people to be sort of getting a bit of obsessed with it right in the way that you know I've fallen in love with books over the years uh which is I'm really excited to be talking about some of them today. And you know, you want people to connect with your book on that level. So it's just incredible. And it's terrifying. Absolutely. The praise is absolutely all deserved. So in terms of you, I mean, you said you've been writing it for seven years. How much would you say is changed over that period? Well, it's interesting, isn't it? because when this was commissioned, we hadn't had Brexit,

Trump, coronavirus, or even the Scottish referendum, actually, doesn't that feel like a million years ago? And it's just like emerging into this world that is literally burning, you know? I'm really concerned about climate change. And it just feels like everything is a constant argument all the time. And it's really weird. Like, I mean, I'm older than when, you know, it just feels like it was a different me who got this book commissioned and it was a different world. It's just bizarre. It's just, and it's really bizarre to be putting yourself out there at a time when the world feels increasingly hostile. It's, it's really scary as well as being wonderful, yeah. We're going to talk a little bit more about that in a moment. And I also wanted to ask you whether you'd always been a big reader and whether you feel like you have read more or less over lockdown. Oh, I think that I haven't read as much as I thought that I would read in lockdown.

I will tell you that I got into audio books, which I've always been really resistant to. So I was never into Kindle, right? Because the thing is, I'm quite an old-fashioned girl yummy on me, and I just like a book. You know, I always say with these online magazines, it's not a magazine unless you can roll it up and hit somebody over the head with it. And I want to feel a book. I want to see the soup stains on it, you know? It's a physical object. And so I never got into the Kindle thing.

And I was a bit suspicious of the audible thing because for me, that's just like listening to a lecture or a radio drama or a monologue or something, which is not the same process as reading. I like reading a book, which is maybe a black and white way of looking at it. But I got into audio books over lockdown. love a self-help book. I could have come up with like five different self-help books if this wasn't more geared towards fiction. One thing I will say, I got into reading French in French over lockdown because I've been studying French. I'm literally one of those people who learned a language in lockdown.

And one of my books today is a French book. And we're going to talk about that because that's a major, major, major thing for me, the idea that I could read a book in French. So there has been that. very impressive and I'm also very happy to that the audio book agenda is continuing because I'm a big big sort of champion for them I love them um so we've got we've got one for you I've created one especially for you yummy I'm music to my ears honestly your your first book shelby is the life and loves of a she devil by fay well done paris can you please give a brief summary of what this book is about and what drew you to it. So this is a book about a woman who has been wronged. She's downtrodden. She's

disrespected. And she really reaches breaking points and she embarks upon a course of action to seek power, money and revenge. And my mum had an old copy of it laying around when I was a kid. And I think I piqued it up when I was like, maybe 13, maybe 14. And I'd never really read like an adult book before then. So I think I'd read some sort of like maybe Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, possibly like an abridged version for kids. But this is like the first sort of grown up book that I'd read. And I just became obsessed with it.

There's also this like physical transformation that she goes through, which like is not rocket science to work out. you know, why these themes appealed to me. And yeah, she's just really, really, really funny. And I think she occupies quite an interesting space, I think, because she's not, I don't think that she's seen as sort of trash, but I don't think she's seen as high literature. And I think it's hard for me culturally to sort of read how the books were received at the time

because it's before my time. So this book came out in like the mid-80s or something. but I get the impression that it was sort of marketed as sort of like quite a mainstream mid-market kind of thing. I don't know if that would be fair to say, but so I don't know if I'm supposed to like her or if she's seen as a particularly intelligent author, but I love her and I don't care about all of that stuff.

And I just think she makes loads of really hilarious, witty observations about life. And I think, you know, just stuff that you encounter when you're a teenager and some of it sticks and some of it you look back on and you think, but I'm so embarrassed, but I didn't know any better. This has really stuck with me my whole life. And just, I've probably read it more than any of the book.

It's just, yeah, she's hilarious. I love her. You mentioned that it was, you know, the most grown-up book that you had read. Were you someone who read a lot of books, or was that something that you came to sort of, you know, later in your teens? As a child, did you read a lot? Yeah, I used to walk to school reading books in my hand. And I think it comes from feeling really uncomfortable.

actually because I you know say this all the time I was very unhappy growing up right and I but it wasn't just unhappy I always felt anxious all the time constantly never felt safe and I think it was it was a distraction thing and I and I used to read I remember reading The Witches by Roald Joel that way and I read that in like a day which is a story that my dad still loves telling to this day and and weirdly I I wrote to him the other day and he was saying that he used to have to shout up and tell me to turn the lights off at night because I would stay up reading and then come down for breakfast like really bloodshot in the morning. So for me it was a form of escape reading.

And I would just pick up my mum's old copies of, you know, she had like loads of Ruth Rendell crime novels laying around. And she has another pen name, Barbara Vine, who was really, I really like her, Barbara Vine. books. They were good books, but they weren't, we didn't really have the classics lying around, is what I would say. But there were books. And honestly, I would read anything. If I didn't have a book around, I'd read a dictionary or the back of a packet of cereal. You know, like, I just always wanted to be reading. So this is before social media, right? Yeah. And the media and

everything. So I feel kind of lucky in a way because I don't know if I would have fallen in love with books in the same way if I'd have the distraction of social media at that at that time. Yeah, I heavily relate to that. I don't, I think I'd have been reading basically Facebook posts and like tweets if I didn't grow up sort of pre all of that. Yeah. So you said that you were, you know, so since you were, you were definitely a huge reader, but how did writing come into equation. Was that something that you were keen on early in your life also? And did you always, for instance, want to be a journalist? Yeah, I always loved writing and I always loved creative writing at school. And, you know, here's the thing, you know, I was in an ex-mining town in Nottinghamshire.

So my access to culture was limited, shall we say. So, you know, I wasn't going to the theatre or, you know, I didn't, you know, I didn't have a piano for piano lessons. I didn't have a French tutor or anything like that. So really reading and writing are for me the most sort of, there's something very democratic about them in that anybody can do it pretty much if you've got a library, which we did in my hometown. And, you know, obviously loved English at the school.

It was the subject that I excelled in. And just always, I was thinking about this actually the other day. I used to walk home and I remember looking at adverts on Bill boards and thinking, that's interesting. Why have they used that word and not this word? And I was just fascinated in where words came from and the different connotations of words. And if you swapped this word out for another word, it brings that a slightly different meaning. And I would characterize it as an excess of thoughts, right? And I think this is what makes me a writer because I just have all of these thoughts and they need to go somewhere. But with the journalism, think, no, I have, I, I have,

had no desire whatsoever to be a journalist. But when I was at university, and I was becoming a bit more politically aware for the first time in my life, and, you know, thinking, okay, there's newspapers, I read the news. And the only time I saw trans people discussed in the media was as objects of ridicule or pity or discussed.

And there were just these really horrible people saying really, really nasty, inaccurate things about people like me in broadsheet newspapers, along with everywhere else. And I just remember thinking, well, I could do that. I'm good, I'm good with words. I think I could be one of those people who appears on the news or writes in newspapers. I have those skills and I want to have my voice heard. And I'm proud of that part of my career, but honestly this new phase writing much more literary stuff is absolutely what I want to do going forwards. But I always knew I would write a book, definitely. I've always known that. Thank you so much, Paris. We're just about to move on to your second bookshelfy,

but you mentioned that you grew up in. Now I see Hockno, I can't say, I say, Okno like it's written in your book with the kind of apostrophe before the U. and you know, you kind of, you know, touched on your life and livelihood there. And, you know, obviously that's that, that's where, you know, Byron goes up in your book. And I'm interested in, because obviously, you know, it's sort of auto fiction, memoir, but then parts of it, I believe, are fictionalised. As someone who's written about their life on the internet, how, I suppose, nervous were you about writing this book?

because so much of yourself and your personal story is in it. Did you feel in any way exposed or did you feel as though because you've already been somebody who writes about their life anyway that you already sort of prepared for it? Well, first of all, let's get this pronunciation of Hukno, right? So would you like to hear the absolute gold standard of... I'd love nothing more. How the locals pronounce it.

So it's Ochnol. Ockno. Ockno. But we got the tram roundabout at the end of where my book ends, so like in the mid-late late-noughties, we got the tram. And I remember the first time that I got on it, it said, this tram is for Hucknall. And I remember thinking,

where? Oh, I think I'm on the wrong one. Yeah, so nobody pronounces the hate. Yeah, it's this thing, isn't it, where I think that women in particular are forced in, not forced, but shall we say, encouraged and rewarded for sort of confessional journalism. Right. In a way that men aren't. And I think also as marginalised people, we feel that we have to regurgitate our trauma for sort of, you know, wider societies. sort of, you know, consumption, you know, and if we cry for you, will you be a bit nicer to us

kind of thing? And I think also, particularly for trans people, but I do see it for people, you know, who are oppressed for, you know, various different diversity strands. I feel that they need to explain their difference or why they are different. And I definitely, and I definitely, feel that that has influenced my career. And also, frankly, let's be honest, it's a way to get your voice heard, you know, I can get a byline advice or the guardian if I'm prepared to show my pain, you know, because I'm not coming from a background and a journey where I'm, you know, just able to just write about reports on the news and stuff. Does that make sense?

Perfect sense. Yeah. I heavily relate, actually. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we have to find ways to get our voices heard. And I think that this is a power thing as well, definitely. You know, I look at people who've perhaps had a more privileged route into journalism. And they don't feel the need to share their personal stories because they can have a career that doesn't rest on that.

And I sort of traded in my privacy to a certain extent for a voice. But also as well, I am a pretty open book, Yomi. You know, so I do wear my heart on my sleeve. And I'm somebody who, and this is what I've realized writing my book, clearly needs to talk about things. Yeah, I need to be heard. I need to be understood. And, you know, I have a friend who always says,

a problem shared is a problem half. And I really, I'm not a sort of sweep it under the carpet or forget about it kind of person. I'm somebody who needs to talk. So for me, this whole process has been really therapeutic. And I really do believe that it could provide an opportunity for some closure. And I know that I've had that when I've written about difficult periods of my life in my journalism. So, for example, writing about relationships that honestly, maybe I still felt a certain, you know, kind of pain on some level.

but when I wrote about them, it really gave me some closure and having other people read them and say, oh, I was in a relationship like that. It almost made it real, saying it in black and white. You know, it did mean something, and I've taken something from it, and now I've closed the door on it. And I want to do that with this really difficult period of my life now.

Your second book, Shelfy, is Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte. Can you please give us a brief description about the book and when it was that you read it? I'm going to sound so shit now because I, it's been so many years since I read it. I can't actually remember what happens, just apart from the fact that they have this really tempestuous relationship that's told from,

so there's like a framing device where the narrator is sort of recounting a story from action that happened sort of 20 years previously, and they have this really tempestuous relationship. But the thing that really stuck with me is, I think it's probably fair to say that they were pretty, codependent, but, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't a healthy relationship, shall we say. And I have been prone to codependency. So, so when I read that as a teenager, I didn't, I didn't realize, you know, I was enjoying it on that level. But as an adult, you know, you have, you have greater

insight on that stuff. But also, I think the reason I picked it is there is some regional dialect in there. And I'm completely obsessed with regional dialects in fiction. Because I think, You know, if you're from a place like, I don't know, say like Scotland or Ireland or even like Newcastle or or Manchester or Birmingham, you see your accent reflected in the culture somewhere, somewhere. With Nottingham, I knew that we didn't speak, you know, the standard English and there were words that I'd never heard on television. But I'd never sort of seen it in the culture. so that was quite confusing to me. So I was really fascinated with seeing regional dialects in the books that I was reading.

But also, for me, it's a feeling. And I don't really remember what happened in that book, but I remember how it made me feel. And I love things like that. It's not a very good description of it, is it? Shall I Google it? It is a book about a man and a woman. I'm not even joking when I say pretty much,

all I remember is it, was it, all I remember about it was the fact that it was about a very toxic kind of back and forth between this couple and I remember reading it at school, liking it but picking up the exact same things, which is like, oh, this relationship seemed pretty unhealthy and leaving it at that. And I will confidently tell everybody that I've read it because as far as I was, I'm aware I have, I just can't remember a single thing about it, so do not worry. Yeah.

I want to talk a bit more about your book. I think I remember saying to you that it was viscerally realistic. Like it, I think my favourite thing about it is the fact that it truly reads as though you've just stumbled across the thoughts of Byron, essentially, like a diary. And it just feels very, very, very real. And in that realness, there are conversations between characters that would potentially be seen as problematic. And we kind of discussed that because I remember you sort of saying like, oh gosh, I hope that this isn't misinterpreted. And I was saying that I think it's very important that it's part of that realism to make sure that people are saying what they really. would have said at the time and accurately.

I just wanted to kind of talk about that a little bit more because I know that you kind of had thoughts around it and were like, I really want to make sure this isn't something that people take the wrong way, but you obviously decided that you were going to push through with authenticity. And I wanted to talk about why that was something that was important to you. Well, thank you very much for the kind words about it feeling very sort of

like you're there kind of thing. I'm just so relieved to be at this stage because that's what I wanted. And it's like I'm now having the feedback that it has worked. You know, you've done what you set out to do, which is, which is wonderful. But yeah, I mean, it is scary because I absolutely, my primary goal was that I wanted it to be authentic. That was so, so, so important to me. And the fact of the matter is, you know, as a kid on a counselor this day, in the early noughties, the kind of conversations that we were having were not politically correct,

shall we say. And I thought, well, I have a decision to make. And I'm very interested in the truth and I'm very interested in, you know, sharing, sharing my story, warts and all. And, you know, listen, I don't, I don't come out of this book particularly well. You know, I mean, I go to Young Offenders Institute. So this isn't, this isn't like a sort of like, um, roast into version of, you know, idealised version of life. I wanted to show life in all of its sort of messiness and it's ugliness and it's, it's, it's problematicness, if that's a word. Is that a word? I think you've just created a new one. I'm loving it. Yeah. Yeah. We'll use that. So, so I do wonder if it might be shocking to people because we're just,

not used to seeing people speaking like that in in yeah in in 2021 in in in in that context obviously I'm sure you know some people do still talk like that clearly though if you look at some online discourses you know and obviously my intention is not to upset anybody whatsoever so you know I was I was I was I was nervous I was I was a bit nervous sharing it with you and Reni and and and people of colour that I really respects and you know if people had sort of said you know we feel that you've got this wrong, then I would absolutely, you know, be open to that. And it's just really moving that

everybody that I've shown it to so far has said, you know, we absolutely get this in context. And that was, you know, like my sister is mixed race. And, you know, I read the parts out because I include some discussions that one of my mum's friends, for example, was making, would make these jokes about, you know, racist jokes. And I said to my sister, you know, how, how do you feel hearing that that's how people were describing your mum at that time? And she said, you know, well, that's how people spoke. That's how it was. So I think we should have a conversation about this stuff, because we have gone on a journey and it's great now that we're all more careful that we are you know, trying to be more sensitive and be more understanding.

But I think, you know, particularly in the social media age, it's sort of like, you know, jumping on people for comments that they made, you know, years ago. And I'm certainly not excusing bad comments, you know, but it's like, I think to understand how we've got to hear in this place that we're at now, we need to understand where we came from. And I think a lot of this sort of hate using the cultural stuff because I think it serves, it serves a certain agenda to think of this stuff as a culture war.

But we know what's going on. There is this sort of divide between, you know, the free speech people, you know, the side that I would consider myself to be on, which is, you know, can we have more respectful conversations about stuff? And I think a lot of young people maybe don't even know that some of these people that were getting pushed back from that are in their sort of 40s, 50s, 60s. For them, the action of this book wasn't that long ago. And that's what we're dealing with.

This is the mindset that we're dealing with. And I just think it's really important to understand where we've come from to understand where we are today and how we move forwards. This podcast is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish Queen. Baileys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Babies is the perfect adult treat, whether in coffee, over ice cream

or paired with your favourite book. Enjoying the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast? Share the literary love and be part of the future of the Women's Prize Trust. They're making a one-off donation to support our important workers to charity. Donations of all sizes help us to continue empowering women, regardless of their age, race, nationality or background to raise their voice and own their story. Search for Support the Women's Prize to find out more. Tom Hanks is Otto. He's seen it all. Otto?

Otto? Otto? O-T-O. You don't hear that name very often. I do. He's a man who gets easily annoyed. What are you doing? Parallel in parking.

Parallel to what? He has had enough. Are you always this unfriendly? I am not unfriendly. Okay, you're like a warm cuddle. But he's finding his joy again in the most unlikely place. I'm not sure about this. It's going to be very fun.

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blog books, the high performance podcast and the one you're listening to right now. I'll move on to your third bookshelfy, which is the colour purple by Alice Walker. Give me a summary of this book and also tell me a bit about when you first read it. So I read this book at university and it is about a young woman, I think a girl at the start of the book who is, in her own words, poor, black and ugly, which is a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible way to describe yourself as ugly. And there's that great scene. I don't know if you've seen the movie with, you must have seen it with with with with with with with with old. And Oprah as well isn't she?

Yeah. And it's and it's about somebody who's marginalized and you know, just really experiencing, um, abuse, uh, oppression, uh, racism. And it's about this, this person's story and struggle for for happiness, you know, in really sort of difficult circumstances. but also sort of you're getting a very sort of vivid description of the world at that time. And she really, Alice Walker, the author really recreates the world very vividly. It's written in African-American vernacular English.

So it's the English that would have been used. I think it's set in the South. So it's that black vernacular. And, you know, when I read it when I was like 18, 19, it's hard to get into a voice. like that in the first few pages, but once you're in, you're in. And I just remember this voice sticking with me and it absolutely puts you at a certain time and place

and creates a universe. And it sort of becomes this immersive experience, which, you know, when you're reading fiction, I want to be transported. I want to escape. I want to go into your world. I want to empathize. And I just think it's a really powerful technique.

And also train spotting as well really, really does that. It absolutely puts you in a certain time and place. But this is maybe the first time that I'd really experienced it in that way. Because with something like Wuthering Heights, you get the dialects, but it's just a little snippets. And I sort of feel the way about that as I did every time Samantha would come on sex in the city in that she was why I was watching it. every time she was on screen, that was like gold, you know? And every time I saw these dialects, you know, for certain characters in books, my brain would light up, you know, the reward centre.

So to have a whole book written in it, I just lost myself in it. And she's such a fantastic writer and it's so moving. And it's just beautiful. I just love it. And it's one of those books that sort of stays with you, you know? and it just it becomes part of your inner world and I always think of it when I see the colour purple in nature and just that whole beautiful section that the title is taken from

it's just an incredibly beautiful, important, well-crafted book. Thank you so much, Paris. Now, I want to talk a little bit about your platform and who you are and what you mean to various people in the UK. definitely, I mean, I feel like you may humbly agree that you're certainly a trailblaze when it comes to the mainstream media. You're a lot of fuss. And that can come with a great deal of pressure. Now, I remember reading somewhere, I cannot remember for the life of meware, that you were sort of discussing your book and saying, look, like, I don't believe there's such thing as a man book,

a woman book or a trans book. Like, yes, this might be a book that speaks to my experiences as a trans woman, but like this isn't necessarily a trans book. And you kind of spoke about that. Whilst that will always be part of the story, it's not necessarily the whole story. And I suppose I'm interested in, if you ever felt any sort of pressure to, A, write a book that was, you know, quote-unquote, a trans book, but also if you ever feel that pressure to be a role model as someone who has achieved so much and is so visible and is in such a minority as a visible trans woman. It's quite a question. There's a lot to unpack there. Yeah. Okay, let's break this down. Okay, with, with the, is this, what kind of book is this? It's like, well, obviously on some level,

it is a trans book and in the same way that David Cameron's memoirs are a man book, because how can he writes a book about his life or part of his life and it's not necessarily be about being a man on some level because he is a man? Do you know what I mean? And you know, becoming by Michelle Obama, you know, is that is that a woman memoir? And yes, so technically it is because she's a woman and she is speaking about her experiences as a woman of colour who's had a very specific life. So for me, it's just weird when people sell, you know, people are expecting me to write a trans memoir.

But I get it because, you know, there is a sort of genre of, you know, and it's one of the few ways traditionally that trans women have actually had a voice is writing a book that's all centered around your transition, right? I mean, you tell me, what is my book about? So for me, your book definitely speaks to me as a coming of age novel.

And it's, it's messy. It's a very, very difficult read. It's, as I said before, viscerally realistic. It's about mistakes. It's about growth. It's about, in many ways, exploitation. It's about being young and dumb and also simultaneously being young and smart. and like kind of like about class it's about various things which is why I asked the question

because I feel like I certainly came away feeling like yeah it does touch on it does touch on certain themes that you know of course as you said like you know you're you're a trans woman who is writing a book about that is based on her experience so of course that comes into play but I feel that it if anything if I had to choose one thing I would say it read like a coming of age story personally and it's about I mean there's just so many different things community just various difficulties it's yeah so it's a real kind of small small sport is that how you pronounce of different things well thank you and you know I hope that most people will will appreciate it on that level but you know I saw one of these reviews on online and somebody had had said

I hesitate to praise a trans memoir for being quite thin on the ground on trans stuff. But, you know, it was really refreshing. She doesn't go on about it that much. And it's like, well, guess what? It's not a trans memoir. I never said it was. You said it was because that's what you were expecting from me. Not you, but, you know, there's this call who left the review.

And I do understand why people are expecting that from me. but it just drives me crazy because, you know, I'm always keen to point out. I know that I'm well known for talking about trans stuff and I'm proud of it, right? And it's an important thing and I will continue to use my voice to just try and encourage people to just not be so unpleasant to trans people. But like some of the most high profile stuff that I've done, I went on question time twice. I didn't even talk about being trans. You know, my vice columns, which some of which have aged terribly, let me say. But, you know, they were like the most read things on the website and had nothing to do with, nothing to, didn't even mention being trans in them.

So it, but it's like when you are trans, it's like that is the only thing people can see about you. So obviously people think, oh, she's written a trans memoir and I just think if you think that you're going to be disappointed when you get this book, because I do talk about it. Because as I say, I can't write a book about my life in which I'm not trans because I am, but that's for me, that's not what the book's about. Absolutely. So, yeah, but I do feel like duty, not a pressure of duty, to try and use my voice. But I can tell you, I like writing books.

And I wrote this because I wanted to tell a good story. I love storytelling and I've got stories to tell. And life is short, let me tell you, I don't want a career where I'm arguing with people on Newsnight for the rest of my life. I honestly just can't think of anything worse. And actually, Rone Ado Lodge had a huge. huge impact on me in that way because, you know, she had this huge book out. I think she'd just

got a certificate saying that she sold 500,000 copies, right? Which has made like a huge, huge, huge impact. And you don't see her going on the news, arguing with people or getting drawn into this sort of nonsense and this sort of cultural stuff. And I think that she really changed the way I think about that stuff and I thought this is how I want to move forward. I want to be respected for my writing and I want to put out books that are received well. I don't want to be writing comment pieces and I don't want to be constantly arguing about why I have the right to live my life with indignity and safety. Thank you so much. We're just about to get to Rennie now because your bookshelfy is why I'm no longer talking to white people about race by Reni.

Eddie Lodge. So can you tell me a little bit more about this book and the impact that Rennie as an author has had on you? So this is a book about, I guess, the hidden history of race relations and racism in the UK, which just had never really read anything like that before. And I think she is a trailblazer she really started a conversation with with with with with with that you know for our generation and um i guess you could say that it's a polemical but for me it was just a very sort of we're just having a conversation about some things that happened and i'm going to tell you about them so i found that very very powerful it's you know again she she is somebody who is who is interested in the truth, you know, and let's talk about this stuff that we don't usually talk about

and that I certainly wasn't taught at school. And I just think she's absolutely amazing. I am a Renea de O'Lodge, Stan. I'm in the fan club. And, you know, I don't know how, I don't know how much she talks about her life, her personal life. But I don't think it's a scene. to say that, you know, she didn't have her career handed to her on a silver platter. And I just really respect that she's had such a successful career and she's had such a successful book in so many different ways, not just the sales, you know, the impact that it's made, the conversation that it started, the other books that have come after her, which I think it's fair to say, you know, she's inspired a lot of thinking and writing and talking on

this subject. And I just also really respect those writers who they're not just turning books out every couple of years. She had something to say. She said it. She made an impact. And now she's doing her thing and will we get another book out of her when she's got something to say? I hope so. but at the moment she's she's you know she's she's not rushing to just get another one out hot on the heels of the success of this one and I respect that because I think that she's a really serious person you know and you know I have pretensions of being a serious person I'm absolutely ridiculous actually but I yeah I just really I just really respect her and and and she's been so supportive and lovely and sweet to me and you know there's a

this chants are in there on the hostility that she received as a young black woman trying to put forward an anti-racist perspective within feminism, within the British media. And it's just very interesting to me that a lot of the hostility that she faced came from the same sort of people. And in some cases, the same people that I was facing at the same time trying to put forward an anti-transphobic perspective in those same spaces. And so, you know, I am from a council estate and it is really difficult sort of navigating the British media, you know, which isn't always a welcoming place to people, you know,

who are trying to speak truth to power. And I'm so glad that she exists in the world on a personal level as a friend, but also just as a writer that we were just very, very, very, very, very lucky to have. And I just really, I really respect the way that she puts her energy and her voice out into the world. Yeah. I'm a fan. Can you tell? Just a bit. Just a bit. But who isn't?

Before we get to your fifth and final bookshelfy, I just wanted to talk a little bit about the fact that, you know, you said that you'd sort of just made a, you know, real decision that you were not. going to spend the rest of your career backing off all thing on news night. But even aside from that, I noticed that you, because I know of you basically through your vice columns. That's how I first came across you in your work. I used to read them religiously. And your tweets as well. And you've definitely taken a bit of a step back from Twitter. And I think I recall you actually saying that, you know, kind of doing a little sort of PSA about it and saying, look, like, this just isn't for me anymore. I'm interested in how easy a decision

was to make because for many writers it feels like Twitter is our lifeblood and if we're not on it, we're missing out and how your life has I suppose changed the less you having chosen to engage with that platform and just generally social media. Well can I just say those vice columns, and they did sort of encourage me to be controversial and some of those things I wouldn't quite write in the way that I wrote at that time. I can imagine, yeah, but they definitely put you out there. Can I just say they were so fun to write? They were so incredibly fun to it. I don't think I've ever had as much fun writing some of those. They were

absolutely crazy and ridiculous. And people love them as well, but they also, you know, they got a strong reaction from people, shall we say. But that's a Rennie thing as well. They're not going on social media. You know, you don't see Rennie getting caught up in nonsense on Twitter. You know, she comes on every now and again. She says what she's got to say. And everybody, like, it's always, like she only says something is she's got a good point and and she she taught me about this idea of not being reactive because my whole career was reactive I was reacting to something that somebody was saying in the media you know I was reacting to some horrible person coming forward and just saying something really nasty about trans people and then feeling like I'd got to pitch a piece to

you know a newspaper to get paid like a couple of hundred quits you know I don't think it's healthy and I think listen the Trump thing really scared me and and and The Brexit things really scared me. And it just relates to those vice columns, actually, because I did a lot of real soul searching over the past few years and really sat down and asked myself, you know, what role have I played in this? Like increasingly polarised, toxic, argumentative sort of conflict-driven journalism

and media landscape. And I just don't want to be a part of it anymore. I genuinely really do not want to be part of it anymore. part of that obverse journalism and everything being an argument. Because are you happy with where we are now? Do you think this is a healthy space for us to be in? Definitely. And I really encourage all of these journalists and these commissioners

and the editors who are involved in this. Yeah, it's great for hits, you know, and clicks. But look at what it's literally tearing us apart. It's tearing this country apart. and it's tearing international relations apart. And I know there's always been problems. And in some ways things are much better. You know, I probably wouldn't have had the career that I'd had without social media.

This is social media, you know. And it's great that we get to have these conversations and connect with different people. So, you know, I'm not just being, you know, oh, you know, the new technology is terrible. But let's be honest, it has created some really serious problems that we haven't got to grips with yet. And I think a lot of it was validation as well, Yomi, you know, because you know if I'm reading my book, I grew up feeling like I wasn't good enough. And so if you're putting extreme viewpoints or really strong language or sort of, you know, over the top outlandish statements and images online and thousands of people are liking and retweeting them, that's highly validating. if you're getting invited onto the news and radio shows and things like that for me it was attention seeking and I see a lot of really damaged people

who it's it's just like throwing a log on the fire for the for the media you know and I've done a lot of therapy over the past few years and really have investigated why am I doing this and I think it's fair to say I was using social media in quite an addictive way and not a healthy way whereas now it's just a tool for my my my work it's a way for me to connect with people who followed me and supported me for years and the communities that that that that that we've built there and also you know I do have that platform to try and try and try and speak up and and try and you know try and just call for kindness and I feel like such a such a Pollyanna you know sometimes because oh please can't everybody

just be nice but I'm just like you know I just for me the heat has gone up too much and I'm Like, can we all just calm down a little bit here? Because I think we could potentially be going into a very, very, very, very, very, very scary, dangerous place in society. I mean, am I the only person that's feeling that? Is it just me and my paranoid? Absolutely not. I think it definitely feels all in the tipping point of something quite big. And it can be a bit overwhelming.

And I think, like, Twitter and social media definitely just stoke up that fire. Like, on a daily basis, it's a lot. And can I just say as well? Like I always meet guys on like dating apps and they're like, oh, you're nothing like what I thought that you'd be like. I think they think that I'm just constantly complaining about trans rights all the time. When actually like I consider myself to be quite relaxed and I like having fun. And it may surprise people that actually I don't really talk about being trans in my everyday life. And that social media stuff is just that I feel that politically,

I need to use my voice to push back against the sort of the nastiness that I see. And I'm just sick of, I'm so sick of that being my public profile, which is why I wrote the book, the way I wrote it. I wanted to make people laugh. I wanted to make people cry. I wanted them to enjoy it. And I just wanted to have some fun. I'm so sick of being so fucking earnest all the time, you know?

Like, so yeah, and I'm just not doing it. So this, this is new me. I'm writing books that people enjoy. and I'm not getting drawn into social media nonsense. All right, Piracy, fifth and final book, Shelfi, this week is Simple Passion by Annie and No. Please tell us what this book is about and when you read it. This is a book by a woman, a French woman, and it's so French. And it's about her sexual relationship with, it's a younger man.

and it's I think he may even be in a relationship but in any case it's not it's just a sexual thing they just hook up sometimes but she becomes preoccupied with him and she awaits his visits and she's I don't know she's in love but she's she's definitely in lust and it's it's so clever and it's so simply written because so I've been learning I've been learning French and the first book that I read in French was so hard. And I was consulting the dictionary and Google Translate. And there's this thing, you know, where you can actually put the camera on a page and Google will translate it for you.

Like, it's not perfect, but it's, you know, it really helped me. Oh, yeah. With that first book, which was actually Edouard Louis, whose story is actually very, very similar to mine. and that helped me actually get through that book. And he's fantastic. And then I have this problem because I'm like, I want to read books for my level of French,

which is, you know, it can't be too complicated. But I also don't want to read trash, right? So it's got to have some sort of artistic merit to it. And Annie Erno is perfect because she just writes so simply, so clear, such lovely, crisp, simple prose. but it's beautiful and it's clever and it's intelligent, but it's not trying to be clever or have really complicated sentences or it's just really honest, clear writing and I just love it.

And to me, to be reading something in French is just amazing. Like, I never thought that I could do this. And it's been a long-term goal of mine because I absolutely love Flourbert. And he used to obsess over every word. So I've wanted since I was at university. So, you know, over a decade now, I've wanted to get to a reading level in French that I could read Flauber in the original French. And I guess that what Annie is doing is similar to what I'm doing in the sense that she's written about her life. So these are things that she's lived and she's experienced.

But they've got this real literary quality and it could be a novel, you know. And I think that there, because Edward Louis would fit into that, I think that auto fiction is kind of a thing here. There's a lot of people who write novels that are sort of a bit semi-autobiographical, right? And there's, you know, a lot of literary memoirs that, you know, you think, or people sort of, it's as a stylized version of the truth. Like, I think there's a lot of overlap there. And, yeah, I just love it.

I just love it because I love the beauty of reading fiction. But, you know, sometimes you just read really sort of like straight. autobiographies and it's like and then this happened and then that happened and you know some periods of your life more interesting than others and I've got a short attention span and I just think these days we're in an attention economy and you know I just I want a book that's really well written from start to finish I want my money's worth yomi thank you so much praise you've been an incredible guess I have one last question which is the hardest actually which is if you had to choose one book from your list as your favourite. Which one would it be and why? This is so difficult.

I know. I'm sorry. I'm going to say the life and loves of a she devil just because I read it just just as I'd hit puberty and was absolutely fascinated about sexual politics, you know, and male and female relationships and money. She talks a lot about money and power and about being a person. But I hadn't read a book like that explored those themes before. And it just hit me at the right time. And I think obviously because I felt so powerless as a child and, you know, I had these sort of, you know, fantasies of having some agency over what my life could be like.

It just hit me at the right time. And it's just, yeah, it's just hilarious. So I'm going to say go well done. Yeah. Paris, thank you so much for being such a brilliant guest. Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. I'm Yomiya Degu K and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast.

Brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Head to our website www.women'spriceforfiction.com. Where you can discover this year shortlist of six incredible books. Make sure you hit subscribe because the next episode. episode is a special book club edition where we'll be discussing two of the titles shortlisted for this year's prize, Yarki Rasi's Transcendent Kingdom and Unsettled Ground by Claire Filler. So if you haven't already got your copies, now's the time to do it. Please rate and review this podcast. It's the easiest way to help spread the word about the female

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