Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S4 Ep2: Bookshelfie: Claire Danes

Episode Date: October 28, 2021

Iconic actor Claire Danes talks to our new host Zawe Ashton about the messy female protagonists that have had a positive impact on her life.   Claire Danes is one of the most celebrated actors working today - and the winner of multiple Golden Globes, Emmys and an Oscar. From her portrayal of a totally fresh and cool Juliet in Baz Luhrmann’s legendary adaptation of Romeo and Juliet, to her Emmy-winning performance in the 2009 film Temple Grandin, or her 9 year run as CIA agent Carrie Mathison on HBO’s Homeland. The range of work that Claire has produced is nothing short of exceptional - every single performance a reflection of her talent, intelligence and complexity. Claire’s book choices are:  ** Goodnight Moon by Margaret Wise Brown ** A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle ** Anagrams by Lorrie Moore ** Autobiography of a face  by Lucy Grealy … and... Truth and Beauty  by Ann Patchet ** The Journalist and the Murderer by Janet Malcolm Zawe Ashton, acclaimed actress, director, playwright and author, will host the new season of the chart-topping Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast, launching with a double episode release: a conversation with award-winning actress Claire Danes, and a conversation with bestselling novelist Candice Carty-Williams. The new Women’s Prize podcast season continues to celebrate the best books written by women, by interviewing inspirational women about the books that have most influenced their life and career.   Make sure you listen and subscribe now, you definitely don’t want to miss the rest of Season Four.   This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Star Wars Andor streaming exclusively on Disney Plus. Cassian Ander, Empire is choking us. I need all the heroes I can get. From the creators of Rogue One. There is an organized rebel effort. Get a hunt started. Witness the beginning. This is what revolution looks like.

Of rebellion. I'm tired of losing. Wouldn't you rather give it all up to something real? Star Wars Andor. Original series streaming September 21st, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. I was going to open the podcast saying the woman, the myth, the icon, but then I was embarrassing myself.

And then obviously your name. I just kind of flash of myself in my like Wonder Woman underwear set when I was four. And that was a happy, a happy vision. So thank you for that. You're most welcome. With thanks to Bayleys, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world.

Hello, I'm Zawi Ashton and I'm your brand new presenter for season four of the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. The podcast that speaks to women with lives as inspiring as any good fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. I'm so excited to be your host for Season 4. of the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast bookshelfy. We have a majestic line-up of women this season. I could be being ever so slightly biased, as some of our guests may include some friends and colleagues of mine,

but I've also had the chance to reach out to women I've admired from afar. Not only will we get some unique insights into these brilliant women's lives and careers, we'll also be taking away plenty of women-penned reading recommendations. Today's guest is one of the most celebrated actors working today, Claire Daines. Claire was barely in her teens when she starred on ABC's iconic television series My So-Called Life, which earned her her first Golden Globe at the age of 15. Her performances have been at the highest level for two decades, whether it's her portrayal of a fresh-faced and cool Juliette in Baz Luhrmann's legendary adaptation of Roman.

and Juliet, or her nine-year run as CIA agent Carrie Matheson on HBO's homeland. The range of work that Claire has produced is nothing short of exceptional. Every single performance is a reflection of her talent, intelligence and complexity. I first met Claire in London earlier this year and they say you should never meet your heroes. I think that's true unless it is Claire Daines. She's a very special human, and you'll have to listen to find out how she's become the first ever bookshelfy guest to sneak an extra book onto her list. This is Claire Daines. Claire.

Hi. You look great in these headphones. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I can see behind you the most wonderful, colorful, organized to my eyes. That's because I keep my books. basically in a pile next to the bed. I can see a wonderful appealing bookshelf behind you.

Yeah. I'm so glad that going down literary memory lane was enjoyable because sometimes it can be a little emotional or a little other things. Sure. I mean, it really was a kind of daunting exercise. And it was interesting which books surfaced, right? I mean, they weren't necessarily the right ones or the impressive ones, but it was pretty clear, which were the obvious markers for me personally. You know, of course, I didn't remember anything that actually was within, you know, those pages.

So I just kind of thumbed them. And yeah, and I do indeed still like it. them. The voices continue to resonate for my 42-year-old self. I love that. Have you always been a big reader? And I sometimes feel odd about asking anyone that question because what is a reader? You know, is it someone who reads a lot? Is it someone who reads not much but very intensely and deeply? Like it's such a spectrum. Totally. But I'm interested to know if books have always been part of your world? Yeah, I go through phases. You know, Hugh, my husband is a crazy, cracky reader. You know, he's a particularly gifted reader. So it's humbling, and I can never

keep up with him. So I don't have that, I don't race through books. I mean, he also absorbs what's within them. I mean, you know, he's not a superficial reader. He's just a, uh, athletic reader, right? I'm not quite like that. My dad also was a voracious reader, as was my grandmother, as is my son, Cyrus. So I'm not in that category, but obviously it is my life's work to interpret words. So I have a very deep relationship with stories. And when I go into a book, It's a very big visceral experience. And, you know, it's funny. I was just saying that I've been, like, really adrenalineized recently.

And it's been so hard for me to be still enough within myself to lose myself in a book or even watch a freaking, you know, television show. It's been the same. Yeah. So I love reading, but I need space and time to do it. well. And lately that happens when I'm doing it in relationship to work, when I'm preparing for a role, that seems to be when and how I do my reading, which is kind of a bummer. Also being, it's just I'm so busy. I'm so, I'm so busy lately, and especially with kids. And it's harder and

harder to carve out that space for myself. But actually, you know, in this project of just getting a little more rooted and centered and relaxed, I think I'm going to give myself, you know, the homework of allowing myself like a half an hour on the sofa with just reading a book for pleasure. That's a prescription that I'm giving myself. You've been in some incredible adaptations of books. This is where the fan-girling is going to start. So when I was, I'm just kidding, but when I was young and I went to go and see you in

Louisa May Alcott's Little Women, of course it was the adaptation of Louisa May Alcott's book and it was such a dynamic retelling of that story. And you are the only person ever actor I've ever seen make my dad cry. Oh, wow. As Beth March. Oh. I have never seen him cry at the cinema or indeed reading.

Oh, wow. You did that for us. Oh, thank you. Yep, you're welcome. Just bring misery wherever I go. Yeah, no, she was a beautiful character. I mean, you know, she was so beautific and kind of selfless, like pathologically selfless. But, you know, upon first glance, she seemed a little flat.

But actually, I so loved playing her because she was just such a good person. Such a thoroughly good person. It's so fun doing what we do and being able to enter a story in the way that we're allowed to physically. And I'm sure you've experienced this too, but you know, you have one understanding, reading the words. And then when you actually inhabit it, it's just that much more dynamic. And I learn so many more things, so many nuances that I wouldn't. they have been afforded just as a slightly more passive reader. You know what I mean?

Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. I do know what you mean. I feel like there will be, as we work through each one of your bookshelfy choices, I feel some character that will be called to mind. Like as I was reading through your choices, I was like, that reminds me of Karen, so and so. I wonder if she read that when she was thinking about work.

But also they do seem as someone who's also really, really been drawn to you as a woman as well as an artist. You know, it might not feel important sometimes when we do interviews or, you know, talk shows or things like that as actors. You know, they're for work and they can kind of wash over us sometimes. But watching you on talk shows since you started as a teenager, to now has been as pleasurable as watching so many of your roles because you are constantly engage and engaging and curious and seem to be inviting any of us in the artistic world to maintain a level of a level of curiosity and humor. That's the kindest way of saying that I'm a nerd, that anybody could possibly have

mustards and I'm really really grateful but you know right back at you madam I think these are just two nerds feeling good about each other which is great I'll take it but two nerds feeling good about not being so alone in the world I am still Angela Chase in my mind Jordan Catalano might still want to marry me this is how we begin the interview I want, just before we go on to your first brilliant bookshelfy choice, I wanted to just talk very quickly about something that's been in the press quite recently about women having to dial down their intelligence in Hollywood and that actually having any degree of intellect can be a hindrance rather than a help

in the industry of acting. And I wondered how you feel about that. Oh gosh. Well, I mean, it's not within the bounds of our industry by any means. It's just a truth about living in the world, unfortunately, which I learned at around 11 years old when suddenly I started middle school. Is that what you guys call it? Anyway, hell, basically.

No, and I like didn't get the memo that we were supposed to, at a certain point, dial the enthusiasm and the intelligence way down. So my hand just stayed firmly in the air. air in class. And my best friend, Ariel, who's been my best friend since I was nine, was much more strategic and just naturally, like, political. And I say that with huge respect and admiration and awe.

But she intuited, you know, that, yeah, you enjoy the learning as discreetly as possible, right? Don't ever admit it. And I got in real trouble. I got punished and I got mean-girled and it was a pummeling and I still just couldn't bother to repress my engagement. And I wonder if that's a reason why I ended up running away with the circus as soon as I did. You know, I just, I mean, school was never a problem, but the role that you had to play as a girl within school really was. And I think that probably would have gotten better as I moved my way through high school.

I mean, it was really important for me to go to college and realize that everybody evolves and there's a different set of expectations. And it's okay to be a thinking person again. But yeah, no, that was brutal. And I don't know. I think it's, you know, the industry feels a lot less dangerous than, than just. junior high school did. That's for sure. That's such a great point. Yeah. So I don't know.

I just, but I'm, I'm very bad at like self-modulating. Always have been and oh well, you know. Oh, well. I love that we just casually threw in. And that's why I ran away to the circus as soon as I could. I mean, that was my childhood dream when I was going through some similar things, when it was like, okay, people seem to be teasing me for things that I enjoy or I'm enthusiastic about books being one of them. And I wish I could run away to the circus. How did how did you manage to do that? And then we will move on to books. No, no, sure. It was not exactly

intentional. I mean, growing up in New York City helped. I danced from the age of four on with a woman called Ellen Robbins, who was a wonderful teacher and mentor. And she asked all of us kids from the age of six on to over the course of the year, we would choreograph our own piece. We would choose the music and the theme and design the costumes. And so we have like real agency as little artists. But she's pretty famous, actually. but people would come to her class if they ever needed, like, kid talent, you know, for a production, and I would often get picked.

So I'd had a few experiences over the course of my very young life performing in these totally whack-a-doodle experimental things in Black Box theaters. You know, I realized much, much later in life that one of them was about, molestation? No, I had no idea. But, you know, it would be pretty happy, but I was just delighted to be bouncing around on a stage in front of people. And then yeah,

I think that's what made me realize that I loved performing, and then eventually I realized that no, acting was specifically what I was most excited about. And I started taking classes at least Strasbourg when I was 10, and then eventually HB Studios. And Ariel, my best friend,

who watched me commit social, suicide repeatedly. It doesn't even make sense as a metaphor, but there you go. She, her mom was a choreographer and she had also been like a kid performer, had worked with her mother in various pieces and she was in a student film and that same director needed another kid. And so her mom recommended me. And so I had this like, you know, I made this tiny movie that I could show agents when I then went to a performing arts junior high school and met other professional kid actors and you know um realized like what a headshot was and yeah how to get one and you know i i had something to go um seeking representation with and like like got it uh and with

rollerblade from audition to audition in new york city um yeah with my like wrist guards and everything um and got jobs. And then, you know, eventually got my so-called life, which was the first big job and moved out to L.A., dragged my parents with me, and they're still there. And I moved back when I was 18. It's so wild to me what you're describing. But what makes complete sense is what I see in your work

of what you're telling me, which is just something genuinely avant-garde. I mean, this is a very avant-garde way of living, a formative part of your life. It didn't feel it. It was just my reality. You know, I never felt like a kid, really. And it's only now when I have actual children of my own,

when I, you know, I think, wow, like, Cyrus is two years from now, I would be starting my career. What? It's hard to compute. But back then it felt completely intuitive. And of course, this would be happening. I'm remembering after our first meeting, you telling me about being in the elevator in your very artistic building in New York,

in Soho and a guy called Jean-Michel Basquat giving you a hula hoop. Well, no. I mean, these are the kind of events we're talking about. Yeah, yeah. So my parents owned this loft building with another couple that they bought in 1972 for like $4.73 with some money that my dad had inherited when his mom passed away. And yeah, Bosquiat was a tenant. And I do remember, I remember seeing him in the elevator.

and I think I remember telling you that, you know, when you're little, you can tell when a grown-up is going to be able to tune into a kid frequency. And he was absolutely one of those people. So he felt like a kid ally, even in the few seconds that we would spend in the elevator. And he was very, I remember him being very charming and like flirting with me. And I just, I remembered him not because I knew he was famous. but because he just was quite special. Like he was a bit radiant. And he did leave a hula hoop in the loft when he left.

So we had that pink hula hoop for a while. And we had some drawings that my mom sold for a new refrigerator. Yeah. Oops. Oops. Mom. Mom. You're so embarrassing.

Sillyness. Yeah. Come on. What are you going to do? I feel like allies of children and childhood fantasy and dream and imagination is an amazing place to talk about your first bookshelfy choice, which is Good Night Moon by Margaret Wise Brown. It's the beloved children's book published in 1947 with the absolutely captivating illustrations of Clement Heard. tell me why you've chosen this as your first choice. So my mom was a toddler school teacher and had a nursery school in our loft that she started when I was four years old.

She was a textile assigned before that. So I grew up in a crush, you know, and there were six one or two-year-olds in the morning and another batch of one-and-two-year-olds in the afternoon and evening. so I cohabitated with these munchkins and we had a really cozy little reading section of the school in my house that I would curl up in until basically I left to go be an actor

in L.A. when I was 14. So I spent so much time with kid books And now I have an eight-year-old and a three-year-old. So these books are still, again, a big, big part of my everyday life. And, you know, they count. They really matter. They're so formative. And this is just the most perfect one.

It's so transcendent. It's so beautiful. and I'm sort of transported every time I read it, which is miraculous because I've read it many, many, many times. And it's a little boring. Like, I don't, I know, like it's a little too obvious. But again, I just, I surrender. Like, what am I going to do? It's the best one.

So I have to honor it here. And I just love how grounded in that room you are. and how profoundly comforting it is, right? Just, and it's actually what I need to do these next three months. Like, be in that green room, right? Just spiritually. I feel like that's like a womb of some kind. And just touch and recognize all the obvious mundane pedestrian objects

that we share our reality with. And it's just a beautiful passing of time. But it's just very centering. And oh gosh, and there's that old lady whispering hush. The whole point is really that old lady whispering hush. But there's just something really profound about mentioning the comb and the mush and, you know, the dumb stuff that holds us in time and space

and makes us feel safe enough to nod off. I've heard reviews that call it more of an incantation. Yes. Than anything else, which I thought was just incredible. Because the book is the putting down of or the saying good night to everything within your room before you go to sleep. Yeah. And that rhythmic, that rhythmic way of writing, I can just imagine your children.

Yeah, it's like a heartbeat, you know. There's just something so consoling about it. And it's like, you know, it's full of gratitude, right? I mean, when you're saying good night to all those things, I think you're just recognizing and appreciating them, which is a very good way of, orienting yourself. It's like it's a good practice.

That's a great word for it. It is a great incantation to just have in your being, I think, for the rest of your life. Margaret Brown herself is a really interesting character of Margaret Wise Brown. She's been quoted as saying that she felt stuck in her own childhood. That actually she wrote these children's books because that's, where she believed herself to be even as an adult. Oh, wow. Isn't that amazing?

Yeah. Wow. I mean, what a healthy way to work through that, right? Right? There are other ways, less positive. Precisely. Who's getting at Margaret Wise Brown for writing children's books instead of, you know, some of the other things that she could be doing to process that period.

of time. Oh, that's so interesting. That's really, that's quite beautiful, actually. Do you think reading the books that you read as a child to your children somehow helps you to understand a part of your own childhood or reframes it in some way? I'm just reminded every time I read a story to my children of how essential they are to organizing ourselves. in our lives and in the world. And it's really wonderful to see how they move through these stories that have passed through so many generations and what excites their little imaginations.

They really need stories as much as they need their apple juice and their hot dogs. They're crucial to helping them crack the world, right? Make sense of it and themselves within it. I feel like we can move on to your second bookshelfy choice and keep this conversation alive because this is another choice from a formative time in your life, from a young time in your life. And your second bookshelfy choice is, I'm going to say her surname wrong, Madeleine Longley. No, you're real fancy. It's lingle. Lengel.

I think it's Lengal. But yes, I'm sure originally it was closer to what you said. The high road is just the road I live on, Claire. Okay, that's just who I am as a person. No shame, no shame. Madeleine's A Rinkle in Time is your second choice, which is about a trio of young explorers traveling through space and time to find their missing father.

It, of course, inspired two first. film adaptations, both by Disney, one for TV in 2003 and probably most well known an adaptation in 2018, directed by Ava DuVernay. I love that this is your second book choice, and I love how much you say you connected to it. It was the first novel that I read all by myself. I think it, you know, we were supposed to read it in second grade or something. And, and, yeah, I was just enthralled by it and, you know, kind of carried to another plane by it, you know, and that was really exhilarating. And I read it to Cyrus, I guess, last summer. And he also really connected with it.

And I just was like, I was doing some serious ugly crying. and we know what my ugly crying can look like, we know what I mean when I say that, I guess. But yeah, it was a big one for me. I love your ugly crying very much, Danes. Thank you. Thank you. Sorry, I don't have a choice.

It's again. But, yeah, I think I just was really excited by this female protagonist who has, had too many feelings, right? She was unruly and just a whole lot of extra, you know? She just couldn't contain it. And I think I really related to that. And in the end, that's what saved the day,

was that kind of spilling over of empathy and feeling her messiness. And yeah, I actually think that's a throughline with all the books that I chose. All of the women are just too much. And find a way to not only accept that, but find the virtue in it, the value of it, and see how it can be very helpful to others.

So, yeah, I think that's what I responded to. But, yeah, I mean, I also loved riding a Pegasus to other dimensions and, you know, but. Who doesn't? And she has a very cute boyfriend who loves her, even with her glasses on. And this is the central character of Meg. Yes, Meg. And is that how you felt? I must have been.

Did you feel a lot? Yes, I think I felt a lot. I felt a lot and it was scary at times and I always felt like I was spilling over and kind of taking too much space or something. And that's probably true for a lot of people, but probably a lot of girls. especially. So I think it's really important for young girls to have these, you know, these examples of other kids who are ultimately successful. Not only despite their, let's call it dynamism, right? But because of it. I mean, I do. Yeah, sure. The dynamism. dynamism, okay?

Yeah. That thing you're running away from, it's dynamism. It's dynamism. If you're afraid of dynamism, that's on you. Yeah. Sorry, not sorry. Sorry, not sorry. Yeah.

It's incredible to me. It's mind-blowing to me that you would read this book age 7, 8. Yeah, around 7 or 8, yeah, maybe I was 8. And then a few years later, age 12, you would then sign with your first talent agency. and then at 15 you would be creating my forever internal dialogue person, which is Angela Chasen in my so-called life. How did it feel when you were on that journey at such a young age and you were being pulled away from slightly more childish things

or maybe even your community of young people? Well, it actually felt like a godsend because as I mentioned, I had such a hard time in middle school. I was really suffering. And I got this pilot, this script written by Winnie Holthman. And it was like she wrote my daughter, dire entry for me, but infinitely better than I ever could. And it was just such a relief to have the words, to have my internal experience be so

perfectly articulated and, and like scream them into a megaphone, you know. it was it was very cathartic it just felt like I had some some recourse like some agency some way of you know

saying the true thing but but yeah like I had Cyrano de Borjaic you know like do it for me and And, you know, and Winnie's connected to, I guess, my third choice. Yes.

Because Winnie gave me these two books to be read together. Lucy Greerly's autobiography of a face and Anne Patchett's Truth and Beauty. These are your third and fourth combined bookshelf. They are. They are. They're combined. It's a little cheeky. The woman that made the icon.

But I also had Good Night Moon as my first one, which is like, you know, 0.8 or 0.04 or something. So, you know, but no, because they really should be read together. And I love them so much. Lucy Greerly had cancer as a child and underwent a series of surgeries that rendered her disfigures. She had huge part of her jaw missing from very early childhood on. And she talks about that experience with such vividness and depth and clarity. She really shares every dimension of what that was like for her. And she talked about her coping mechanisms being under duress.

but then the greater challenge of being othered, right, for the rest of her life and just the isolation and loneliness that she had to endure. And she ultimately, despite her incredible mind and her resourcefulness, she just kind of couldn't bear the weight of all that pain. and ultimately became a heroin addict and died. I forget, she died tragically, and I read it a long time ago. I don't quite remember the details, but it's really wrenching. I mean, I guess you only learn about that through Anne's book

when she writes about her friendship with Lucy. And honestly, I think I said when I was writing my little blurb to you about what I was, I said, I'm crying, thinking about it, and it's happening. again because you go through that experience with Lucy and you and you feel the weight of that isolation and then and then you see her through the eyes of her friend who just so clearly worships her and idolizes her and it's just very very beautiful it's such a it's such an amazingly generous gift that she offers Lucy and us

by honoring her spirit and our strength as a person and an artist. So it's this amazing call and response and you are in this friendship with them in a way that is just really thrilling because they're both so brilliant and they both are so good at loving each other and their connection is really, really profound.

And I don't know. My female friendships are so vital for me. And, you know, like REL, who I've mentioned three times over the course of this podcast, you know, is my bestie. And that partnership is honestly, like, as a sense, is the one I have with my mom, with my husband, with my child, you know. So I just think these are, yeah, this is just a really wonderful illustration of what female friendship can mean. Sorry, that was a wobble. That was a weep, but it's really good.

We are very, very open to weeping here at the women's prize. Don't you worry about that. it is very hard to find those incredible examples of female friendship in any art really and in life. And when you find them, it does crack you open. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's funny. I saw Wicked shortly after that. And I mentioned that because Winnie wrote Wicked. She wrote My Sucal Life and then later on she wrote Wicked.

She was not satisfied with one genius. No, no. But that's also about female friendship. And one friend having to endure a disproportionate amount of suffering in her life, right? Having that misfortune, but also having a kind of superpower because of it. And I don't know. Then it occurred to me, right, of course these books would have really spoken to her. And I was very touched that she wanted to share them with me because,

Yeah, she's also a really, really meaningful person in my life. So, yeah, I remember when we first started shooting my so-called life, too, she gave me all of J.D. Salinger's books. And the director gave me, like, Joni Mitchell's Blue. And it was pretty cool. Like, I was very touched by their offerings, right? I love hearing stories about women holding women in the industry of acting. Yes.

It's so important. We're supposed to be like, you know, we're supposed to do it, not supposed to admit it to each other. Like we do it in the back recesses of the studio lots. Actually, Ariel, when we became friends, it was a really clicky school. that we were in and we would sneak out at lunchtime

and into these hidden stairwells and just be with each other removed from all of the politicking and all of that nonsense kind of feels like that. Actually, the experience of reading all of these books kind of feels like that.

Quiet, safe time with your bestie in a hidden stairwell. and or streaming exclusively on Disney Plus. Cassian Ander, Empire is choking us. I need all the heroes I can get. From the creators of Rogue One. There is an organized rebel effort. Get a hunt started.

Witness the beginning. This is what revolution looks like. Of rebellion. I'm tired of losing. Wouldn't you rather give it all up to something real? Star Wars Andor. Original series streaming September 21st, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required.

T-N-C-C apply. is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish Queen. Bailey's is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bailey's is the perfect adult treat, whether in coffee, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book.

Enjoying the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast, share the literary love and be a part of the future of the Women's Prize Trust by supporting our charitable programs for writers and readers. Donations of all sizes help us to continue empowering women, regardless of their age, race, nationality or background to raise their voice and own their story. Search for Support the Women's Prize to find out more. I think this brings us seamlessly on to your, what are we, I'm going to call it your choice, your, your, your, your, your four point fifth choice.

really, really great at maths as I am at reading, which is anagrams by the equally beloved Laurie Moore. And this is her first novel. You said that when you read this, you felt like you just found your person, which I just love. No, it did. It felt like that.

Like, yes, yes. I want to be. You. I mean, I don't want to just hang out with you. I want to be you. It's such an interesting construction because it's a series of very short stories where there's three kind of central characters who are slightly reconfigured within each story, but basically the connections to each other are more similar than not. And you're really in the one, in the one, in the one character, the one female lead. It's pretty much in her voice throughout. But like you see her through this prism, you know, these slightly different angles. And she's not having an easy time

in any iteration. Yes, I've got a synopsis here that says, delusioned and loveless, a chain-smoking art history professor who spends her spare time singing in nightclubs and tending to her young daughter, finds herself pursued by an erratic, would-be librettist, which is someone who writes the books for opera. I mean, that's a, that's a film waiting to happen, is it? Yeah, no, she's not having an easy go of it exactly. And she's very lonely in all the stories. And she's in a state of yearning and longing and seeking. But she's so wry and and has this kind of salty personality and voice. And she's, you know, she's working quite earnestly to sort of stay treading water, right?

Just have head at least above the surface. You get that feeling. But she's very loving towards this, you know, slightly tortured, still pretty privileged person, you know. She's educated again in every shade, right, every iteration and, you know, kind of working middle class. But I recognized that loneliness, I was moved by that and a restlessness too, you know, like that rapid cycling through all those different variations on the theme suggested. But I don't know, it was just something very humane about it. And I just really, really recognizable. And I felt so close to her.

I felt so invited into her and charmed by her wit. You know, there's nothing saccharine about it. And she has a self-awareness that is really impressive and cool. But yes, she's got lots of dynamism. It's a big, big internal life that she has. has. I feel like there is a real thread that is joining these books together, especially the ones that you're choosing from slightly later in life. And that is these dynamic women who are very unafraid. And yet you say what you identify in them is a loneliness. Can you expand on that?

I have read you say that acting is the best. cure for your loneliness that you've... Yeah, yeah, I know. It's funny. It's funny though that keeps coming up because I wouldn't necessarily describe myself as somebody who feels that way, but I must because I keep saying it. I don't, that's like that's a big question. That's so really, it might be the biggest question for me.

And I have really, really wonderful relationships. with my husband, who is a dream. I mean, not always, but it basically. And really a myriad of girlfriends who I know deeply and feel completely and utterly myself with. And even so, yeah, I guess that's just kind of inescapably true. Like we are moving through this life alone. We can give each other comfort and connection. And that alleviates the stress of living.

But maybe it's just that. I don't know. I don't know. But like when I'm acting, I'm a little bit like Anne Patchett is with Lucy Greerly, right? Like that's the relationship. I feel the love, I feel the connection. It's so much easier for me to give it to this abstract character than it is to give it to myself.

And, you know, I can forgive her all of her weaknesses and foibles and vulnerabilities and uglinesses, right? In a way that I really need to learn how to do better with myself. feels like a little bit of a cheat, but I'll take it. And it's just amazing to me that, yeah, I guess that maybe that feeling of loneliness, of aloneness,

I just said, well, maybe that's just an inescapable truth, but maybe actually that's, that's the illusion that we see through with art and storytelling and books and television shows. And these,

through these abstractions. Your fifth and final choice is the journalist and the murderer by Janet Malcolm, which is a 1990 study about the ethics of journalism, which was first serialized in the New Yorker magazine. Janet very sadly passed away this year, and so we honour her life and her work and her loved ones that she's left behind by including this on the podcast today. This is a really, I mean, this is a really knotted, interesting story, isn't it?

Oh, it's so fascinating. You know what? I have to read you the first line because it's so baller. Every journalist who's not too stupid or too full of himself to notice what's going on knows that what he does is morally indefensible. It's just, I mean, she. comes to play. I love her so much.

Yeah, it's so loaded because she is, of course, a journalist herself. So it's super meta. So she's profiling a journalist who is profiling this man who's been accused of murdering his family. And he ingratiates himself to be alleged. ultimately convicted murderer and presents himself as an ally and trusted friend and betrays him and and writes ultimately this totally searing, damning book about him. And it's wild because in her telling of the story, this journalist is as corrupt, is as repellent and venal and evil as a man who kills his entire family.

Like, how does she do that? How does she somehow present them in such a way that you see them have the same moral value? You know, and she just explored the dynamics between writer and subject. And, you know, I've been the subject of many writers. articles and things. And it always feels dangerous. And it's a minefield, right? Because your vanity is stoked. You know, all of your insecurities as a subject are excited or animated. And you start performing in a way that will be very bad for you

that you'll ultimately be hung by, right? It feels very threatening. Even if they write something incredibly flattering, it so rarely feels like commensurate with who you actually are. And it's either a projection or an act of sabotage, right? I'm speaking in a very extreme way here, and I'm probably exaggerating.

But she explores this, and she is really trying to hold herself accountable throughout. And I just think that's so fascinating and very brave, this idea that like there is, that anybody can have an objective voice, right? is such baloney. You know, she's just wildly, wildly intelligent. She's such a sophisticated thinker. And she has a, like, go, a fantastic analytical mind. I just admire her integrity and her smarts and her courage. I feel like I mustn't not mention the 10 years that you committed to playing Carrie

Matheson in Home and. land and there does somehow feel to me like there is a vibration between this book and potentially that character or that show, which was obviously deeply political and deeply interested in the dissection of ethics and morality. Yeah, I kind of love that she dares to think about journalists as assassins, you know? And Kerry Matheson was a bit. of one. Yes.

She's definitely in a morally nebulous range, which was super fun to play. Not restful. Not a restful decade. Yeah. I think I'm probably still metabolizing all of that. And she might need to work through my system a little longer. because she was a lot. But she was a hoot and a holler.

I mean, I did enjoy her perverse company. And actually, despite, I don't know, her impulsiveness and recklessness and the hurt that she did cause, I mean, she was pretty earnest. She really, she did want to do the right thing. I know that's true. You know, and there's that irony of you actually are kind of safer in her company than anybody else's. And she tended to be right.

But Cassandra knew what was up. But, yeah, a lot of carnage along the way. Not a safe person to date. Nobody should make eyes at Carrie Mathson. They will be dead eventually. although are we just going back on our own, on our own philosophy about dynamism? And if you can't, if you can't stand the heat. It made me think, so Cyrus, it's Halloween this weekend.

And Cyrus always goes as these really esoteric things, right? But this year he's going as a Venus flytrap. and Rowan is a fly but it just Carrie was a bit of a fetus fly trap journalists are a bit of a Venus fly trap I mean bless them we need them they're important but

but they can be sneaky Claire I could talk to you all year to be honest your your voice your philosophies your talent these choices have been so illuminating in a very short amount of time. I'm going to wrap us up by asking the question I have to ask everyone,

which is if you had to choose one book from this list to live with forever, the others have to disappear into a sci-fi ether. Which would you choose of my... Oh, God. That's not fair. Remember you have a couplet. You have a couplet. You can choose the two together. Yeah, I know, I know.

I've kind of cycled through all of them since you've asked me and landed decidedly on each one. I think probably anagrams, but I think I'm being very literal about that only because she's my age. Although, reading it again, I was like, oh, my God, she's younger than I am now. Time. Time is a wild, wild thing.

Okay, this is a really, really weird vision that just came to mind. But when I was shooting Stardust, I had these chicken cutlets that filled out my brisier. and it was a bad habit of mine to take them out and throw them into the air and they would like clap. They would make this very satisfying sound in the air. And I kind of feel like autobiography of a face and truth and beauty are a little bit like those cutlets. And I think my, I'm just, they're going towards each other and it's that very satisfying clap that I am going to go with. I love that. I love that. You are allowed to take those two chicken fillets with you off into the distance.

And actually, on that, do you have a costume for Halloween? Will there be chicken fillets? Well, you know, this is so upsetting because we're actually going to a wedding in Mexico this weekend. What did he go? What did he go is last year? Oh yeah. Last year he was because it was the pandemic and we lived in the country and we spent a lot of time. walking through the woods. So he wanted to go as a tree, but he ended up going as the tree of life. And Rowan was the apple, and Hugh and I were Adam and Eve.

Yeah, it was fun. Although we couldn't go anywhere because it was locked down. So we just got all dressed up. With nowhere to go, really? Yeah, so I won't be going as anything this year, which is so sad. But I think maybe what I would have been,

because we all revolve around Cyrus's choices, I think, because I love that, I love Little Shop, Shopaharis. Maybe I would have gone as the woman from Little Shop of Hars. And maybe he would have gone as Seymour. I love that. But Seymour and her name is... What was her name? I forget. I don't Seymour, but she can't like that.

Audrey. Audrey. Audrey. Yeah, I go as Audrey. God, that's so genius. That's so genius. Well, I don't think you could go any higher in my estimation. but turns out you can and you just did. Claire, thank you so much for those choices. And for spending time talking to us. Thank you.

I'm Zawi Ashton and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast. Please rate and review this podcast. It's the easiest way to help spread the word about the female talent you've heard about today. Thank you so much for listening. Hope to see you next time. You've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast Brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media.

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