Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S4 Ep3: Bookshelfie: Edith Bowman

Episode Date: November 3, 2021

Radio DJ and TV presenter Edith Bowman talks to Zawe Ashton about their shared teenage obsession with Marilyn Monroe, being part of the early days of MTV UK, and how Alice Walker’s The Colour Purple changed her life.  Over her long and impressive career in broadcasting, Edith has acted as a touchstone and a guide into music, cinema and the media world for so many people. From her early days on Hit List UK for MTV,  to bringing the nation together for huge communal events like Glastonbury or The Baftas - and now through her music and film podcast, Soundtracking.   Edith’s book choices are:    ** The Marilyn Scandal by Sandra Shevey ** The Colour Purple by Alice Walker ** Sarah by JT Leroy (Laura Albert) ** Daisy Jones and the Six by Taylor Jenkins Reid ** This is Not a Pity Memoir by Abi Morgan   Zawe Ashton, acclaimed actress, director, playwright and author, hosts Season Four of the chart-topping Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. The new Women’s Prize Podcast season continues to celebrate the best fiction written by women, by interviewing inspirational women about the books that have most influenced their life and career.   Make sure you listen and subscribe now, you definitely don’t want to miss the rest of Season Four.   This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.   Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Wouldn't you rather give it all up to something real? Star Wars Andor. Original series streaming September 21st, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and Cs apply. I literally have two bars when I made. a film. One is, will a drag queen want to impersonate my character? That's just a question that just is constantly in my head. Have I done enough to be impersonated by a drag queen? That's the

first question. And will Edith Bowman think it's cool? Shut up. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. Hello, I'm Zawi Ashton and I'm your brand new presenter for season four of the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. The podcast that speaks to women with lives as inspiring as any good fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them.

My guest today is DJ Broadcaster, podcaster and author Edith Bowman. From her early days on Hit List UK for MTV to bringing the nation to for huge communal events like Glastonbury or the Bafters. Edith's long and impressive career in broadcasting has always been so impressive to me. And she's been like a real touchstone and a guide into so much of the music that I enjoy and the cinema I enjoy. And the media generally for myself and so many, her whole vibe is just infectious. She is one of the most generous and genuinely curious interviewers out there.

I was just so excited to speak to her about her own cultural touchstones through her five brilliant book choices. This is Edith Bowman. Oh, Edith. How amazing to have you on the line. I feel like I can touch you through the microphone and give you a hug. It's not nice being able to hug people. It's wonderful. In a sort of controlled environment.

As long as it's controlled, I'm absolutely fine with hugging. And also, apologies for my awful coldie voice, which is my worst voice on the radio ever. Sounds dead sexy. Your peerless podcast soundtracking, which started in 2016, a recent episode that I listened to, I think you said you'd only missed two recordings in five years. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, come on.

And I think one of those was because it was Christmas. And the other one was because Ben, my editor, I was ill. It's just my friend Ben and I that make it. I book all the guests. I record all the audio. I send it to him and he does his kind of Jedi tricks on it and makes it sound awesome. And then I'm always playing catch up with making sure I post on social about it and all that kind of stuff. Because we don't have a big sponsor or a broadcaster that's kind of.

shouting about us to get us out there. We very much rely on word and mouth and the odd kind person tweeting about us or whatever. But I love it. It's such a passion project. It's, you know, we started it out of a bit of frustration to be honest because we couldn't get a regular slot on a traditional broadcaster. And so we were like, well, why don't we just go into ourselves? And so we did. And with that came an incredible amount of freedom and that no one was telling us who we could and couldn't have as guests. So, you know, one week we may have Tarantino the next week we might have Seder Bridge, who's an incredible female music supervisor. And I love that. I love that. There's no agenda. It's not all about we've got to have big names. We just want to have

really interesting conversations about things that we genuinely love and are, you know, intrigued by. I do feel like I have grown up with you in a way. And I mean that in the absolute best way possible. because Hit List UK with you and Kat Dealey. Let's just go there. Oh my God. I was like, what am I watching? I literally, I can remember your outfits from that time. The padded room?

I can remember the padded room. You're in the amazing sort of burnt orange poof in the middle of the room that you two would just lounge on, whether it be in Added Asht Track Suit, you know, asymmetric, you're like belly tops, denim skirts. Nine times out of ten with a hangover. Obsessed.

Which I'm just absolutely obsessed with the idea that that whole time on MTV, that whole early MTV generation was just so aspirational because you all clearly were having these brilliant nights out. no camera phones. None of us would have known the next day where you were,

who you were hanging out, what was going on. Can you just give me a little window so I can look vicariously for a second into what that was like? I mean, I came at London and to be honest, it took me a little while to get used to being in London, you know, coming from a tiny little fishing village in Scotland.

And I was down here for a good six to eight months before I got the screen test for MTV. Thank you, Christine Bohr, who it was so interesting because prior to that I was looking, I was getting really constant negative feedback about my accent people tell me I had to go for elucion lessons I had heard about this yeah

and I was like well nah now you're all right actually because it's part of my identity it's part of me and so you know I said no to all that and thankfully Christine Boer who was given the challenge of launching MTV UK

worried to represent the UK through accent so that's you know she cast myself, Kat Dili, June Sarpong, Sarah Cox, Donna A, A, a lot of females, and B, with a lot of really quite distinct accents. I grew up in a hotel, so I was kind of used to sort of, you know, party time. But this was another level. However, I will say that I was, I enjoyed myself and I definitely partied not to the extent of some of the others. And I remember one particular Reading Festival where it was supposed to be Donna Coxie and myself host in Reading Festival and there was one day they just didn't turn up because I think they were still out from the night before.

So I became this kind of weird sort of like Edel do it kind of thing, you know, of being the sort of the reliable kind of person in the house sort of thing. And it's a weird situation because it put me on the back foot slightly, but it did not stop me. having the most amazing time. And, you know, we'd get invited to the most random stuff. And Dale and I became really good friends really quickly. And, you know, we ended up still very good friends. We did this travel show together that came out of us being around her flat one night,

getting drunk watching Thelma Nui's and going, would it be great to do a travel show like this? And we sold the idea at someone and they let us do it. It was nuts. Amazing. And so she kind of had come from this experience of she'd been doing modelling. So she had this kind of whole experience of spending six months in Tokyo and all this. So she had this whole other kind of window into things.

And I mean, the doors that opened when you were kind of on Dale's right arm was hilarious. Like I remember we got a lift back from one of the MTV Awards from you two in their limo. And it wasn't like they were trying to try it on or anything. or they just were really nice people who we had great chats with, we had a laugh with. And then Jerry, who was their security guard at the time, was kind of like, guys, can we drop you back at your hotel? And we're like, oh, it'd be amazing.

And so they did. And that was it. And it was just like, did you two just drop us home at our hotel? This is so weird. And so there was the odd moment that was like that. And how old were you at the time? 21 or 22, I think. I felt like I was in a dream.

to be honest, because the idea of, you know, a girl from a little fish in a village arriving in London and getting this break just felt kind of bonkers, to be honest.

Considering everything that had gone before that, you know, I'd try to get work in Scotland. That's why I came down to London was because I just, there was nothing there that was, nobody was giving me a chance up there. You know, it was quite interesting

because at the time there was like Kids TV was being made up in Scotland, Saturday morning Kids TV, on national TV was being made in Scotland and I auditioned for like everything that was going and nobody was kind of giving me an opportunity so I was like right I'm going to go to London see how it goes you know and so then

when it happened it was kind of like sorry and so I kind of felt like I'm not sure I felt invincible I kind of just felt like I need to enjoy this and be in the moment and make sure I make the most of this because I don't know how long this is going to last. And I also think what was really interesting was the way that I came into MTV was slightly

different to everybody else. So they were all kind of hired as pure like on-screen talent, whereas my role came through to start with MTV News. So I feel really, really happy that that's the way it was because I learned so much because I learned about writing the scripts. I learned about editing. I learned about research. And so that training was so important and so necessary.

And I think it's been part of what's allowed me to keep doing, you know, what I love doing and set the foundations for so much of what I do now, really. So I feel really kind of blessed and lucky that I had that route in, as opposed to being purely hard as a kind of on-screen VJ. I have to admit, I did go down Edith Bowman, YouTube. I'm not even going to call it a hole or a spiral. It was actually heavenly. It was, I would call it more like a box of Christmas decorations that you get down off the shell.

I came across, I can't believe I've forgotten this, the Celebrity Fame Academy. Oh my God. Clips from 2005 and your mom. In those clips, did you see my mom dressed as a blues brother? I didn't see your mum dressed as a police brother. Unfortunately, I'm sure I can go back and comb the same clip. But your mum is front and centre of your performances wearing a huge, lovely badge that simply says he this mum on it. How supportive, like how key were your parents support for you in this transition, as you're saying,

from a very small town to a massive, massive life change coming to London. and being part of this incredible 90s fabric that you were part of. They are so part of everything that I am now in so many ways. My mates kind of joke about my work ethic in that, you know, they're always kind of having to go up at me at how much I do. And that's because I grew up in this hotel with my mom and dad and watched how hard they worked and the whole idea of it. Well, if you work hard for something, then you'll achieve it.

So there's that. One of my earliest memories is watching my mum play Nancy and Oliver in the local amateur rheumatic society with my dad and thinking that Bill Sykes had killed my mum. I think I was about three. How it didn't traumatise me for life, I have no idea. But kind of dad going, it's only pretend kind of thing as I was literally about to scream my head off.

So I grew up watching mum be this. She wasn't forced into working in this fight. family environment. She loved it and she was so great at it and she's so, she's such a people person that she probably would have been an actress. She definitely would have been some kind of performer. She was just the life and soul. She is the life and soul whether that is her doing her fantastic Tina Turner lip sync or whether it's playing these roles in various amateur of Dramatics. And so that side of it, I kind of got from from mum, the kind of the real passion for music, the expression of how much you love something. And then dad was more about, uh, just great

collection of eclectic approach to things. And they never, ever told me I couldn't do anything, whether that was when I was sort of six and seven and one week I'd want to do gymnastics in the next week is going, actually can I do karate? And they never said no. You know, they always kind of encouraged me. And it was always about trying things out to see what you, what you liked and what you enjoyed. Even, you know, when I was kind of stealing drink out my dad's drinks cabinet and going

down to the bus shelter and drinking with my mates, mom would kind of say, look, I'd much rather you invite your mates to the house and have a drink in the house and then go out down the street. And so they were just this constant support net. work. They were always there. They were my safety net. Still are. I feel like this is bringing us on seamlessly to your first bookshelfy choice, which is from your teenage years. And that is the Marilyn scandal by Sandra Chevy. Sheevy. I'm going to say sheave. Thanks, Chevy. Yeah, I think shevy. As a teenager, you became obsessed with Marilyn Monroe. For me, it was the first book that I picked up that was one

the kind of deep dives into what happened to her. Yes. It was an infatuation with Marlon Monroe. I don't know what it was. I mean, I watched, I loved gentlemen prefer blondes. I loved seven-year-rich. I love something like it hot. And I think my favorite film.

The tragedy, I think, of the loss of talent and the fact that it felt like she was, we were about to see a different side to her. We were about to see her mature. into and be given the roles that she kind of really deserved to be getting. And then she was gone. And so I went and I started in this and I would read everything. I mean, and then it became this weird sort of parallel thing of being obsessed with Marlon

and then the mob as well. Because obviously there was a big connection with her and the mob at the time. So much to the point that we went on holiday to the States and we had a stopoff. in Boston for, I think it was like six hours. And so at that time, you were allowed to kind of go off into Boston and come back sort of thing. And I dragged my mom and dad to Queen Street Market, which was one of the places that had been in this book that I'd been reading about the mob. And it's like, what was I expecting to see there? It's kind of so weird. So, so odd. And then I went on this really weird, dark kind of Marlin pilgrimage when I went to L.A. for the

the first time, like, I went to the house where she was, where she died and where she's buried is this weird kind of memorial park behind a high-rise parking lot in L.A. in Hollywood. And she's, she's got Dean Martin to her left and Hugh Hefner above her. And it's kind of, it's just weird. And yeah, I have no idea where it came from. And then it just went. There was just one day where I just, I had gone. And so I wasn't, not that I wasn't interested in her anymore, but my, I'd read everything I could read. This is really interesting to me because I also had a Marilyn Monroe obsession when I was a teenager. And I also had a Mathia obsession. Did you? I did. I remember. Did you go to Boston?

I didn't go to Boston. I didn't go to Boston. Thank God I didn't. Because the obsession was quite bad. And I had watched the guy. I'd watch the Godfathers. And then I think I'd watch Donnie Brasco. And I became so obsessed with the mafia's way of, like, just their day-to-day dealings.

And it got to the point where if at school someone lent me, like, a pound at lunchtime or, like, a pencil during math, I'd be like, I've got to give it straight back. I've got to repay that debt immediately. This is how the mob work and this is how I'm going to work from now on. So that's a sidebar. But what do you think it was about Marilyn? What was it that you were drawn to? Because I think for me, I was just so, I was just so intrigued by this woman who still seemed to me like a girl.

And that was like my way in. And I think maybe I just identify with women like that anyway that still have that fragility, that still have that sort of innocence about them. It's probably lots of things that are problematic about this. internalised misogyny and all the rest of it. But what was it for you? I think I was absolutely enamored by her, by her presence, you know, on screen.

And that kind of led me into wanting to try and find an answer to why she died almost, you know, why she'd been, you know, clearly murdered. And I guess I was just looking for answers in a way. and I was intrigued by trying to find for me what was the real Marlin. You know, how much of what I saw on that screen was real. How much of her kind of torture throughout our whole life of, you know, various everything that she was thrown at, you know, her miscarriages.

And she seemed to be like the property of so many people. I never felt like she was her own, she belonged to herself. She was in charge of herself. And so I think I was just trying to find answers to kind of all those questions that I had about her and the real her. And the mob thing definitely came from what I read in the books, you know,

Sam Jankana and that Chicago outfit and then the Boston side of it. and really really odd. Prior to this I was, I loved Madonna and I would like dress up as Madonna at Halloween. My friend Audrey and I one year, I went as to like a virgin Madonna. She went as the get into the groove Madonna.

And we went around the pubs in our village with a little cassette recorder. And instead of going trick or treating around houses, we went around the pubs and we made a fortune. And but with Marlon, I never, it wasn't like kind of, you know, I wasn't dressing up as a Halloween and all that kind of stuff and whatnot. It was, I was just, it was like research. And I never fully got an answer to any of it really.

Hollywood at that time had so many two-dimensional depictions of women, didn't it? And it felt like with the star system that was so present in Hollywood studios at that time, it almost felt like these female stars were almost falling prey to, to these two dimensional depictions of women. And she felt like one of those women. But at the same time, I draw so much strength from her screen presence, as well as the fragility. And for me, she was almost a star that helped me just generally get into film.

You know, there were those stars that just kind of led you to film. And then, like you're saying, maybe your obsession with them disappeared, but actually the love of film remained and I wonder if she was sort of a gateway for you into one of your main passions which is cinema. That's a really interesting point. It's a really, really interesting observation. I think that that's, yeah, because I think that

it's almost weird that the only power that she had really in her life was that performance for every film. Nobody else was in control of that. that all came from her. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really interesting because when I, weirdly, when I say it was research, when I've got a big job coming up to do, you know, a big interview for whatever it may be, you know, I just, I fall down rabbit holes of research.

I kind of, I've almost got to pull myself out of it to go, okay, you need to write some questions now or you need to think about what you're actually going to talk about and stop reading and watching interviews with other people. but I love that side of it I love kind of feeding my brain with facts about people and films and process and creativity and craft so you might well be white I think he's nailed that

I think for me it really shows especially when especially when people are especially when people are interviewing like the huge people like you interview in film you can just tell when they're just in on the ground floor. It's a, it's a completely different vibration. Like you said earlier, you are a fan. And that's what's so unlocking, I think, about your

interviewing style with anyone from Tarantino, like you're saying, to, I don't know, the, I don't know, lead singer of any band you might be interviewing or, you know, a, I don't know, a young up-and-coming star at the Bafters or whatever. You just. just you manage to unlock people because you're genuinely interested in human nature, which you'd be surprised. Not many people actually are. Well, it's weird because whenever I get asked by people, well, you know, what advice have you got for, you know, people who want to get into, you know, the media or whatever it is they want to do? It's kind of, you know,

it's very different now than it was when I started in that people can kind of create their own content. however whenever and I always say you know don't be something that you think someone else wants you to be if you want to create a podcast if you want to create your own radio show you've got to have a genuine interest

in something you've got to be interested in the person in the music and the film and the book whatever it is that you're talking about and it's really interesting you know I did a premiere this week and they flew across three TikTok

from the States to work on the red carpet with me. And they were the loveliest, loveliest people in the world. But it was really interesting watching their process and watching them try and communicate with people on the red carpet. And their whole approach to it is very different from me. I'm there because I'm there to talk about the film and the artists and the performance and the craft and I'm interested in that

and that's what I want to hear about whereas TikTokers are there to facilitate their own platform and their own celebrity by being associated with the film and the individuals and it's really interesting because it's a very different conversation

your second bookshelfy choice is sort of in a similar vein to where we're at right now in terms of talking about the building of persona and identity and celebrity. And your second choice is Sarah by J.T. LaRoy. Brackets Laura Albert. Now, tell me why this is your second choice and what drew you to this as a piece of literature. Because as we know, the book itself is potentially only half as interesting as the story of the person that wrote it. Yeah.

It's, so my friend James, he's a good reader. He reads a lot and he always gives me great books to read. He gave me this book and he said, read this, you'll love it. Do not try and find out anything about this before you read it, you know, just read it. And I think I read it in one sitting because it was kind of like, whoa. Then you kind of come out finishing it. and you're you're kind of like, okay, right, who, where, why, what? You know, you kind of, it's so point of view and honestly written in terms of,

God, this person's been through, you know, a lot. And then it transpires that it's a work of fiction by a work of fiction in a way. Yeah. Which it's weird because then there's the whole discussion about does it matter? And it's a really interesting conversation because there's a whole. whole conversation around that with regards to different industries, be that music, be that art, be that film,

where accusations against someone are made for whatever reason and it's can you separate the art from the crime, the accusation, the accusation. And not that this is that extreme with it. But there was a lot of negativity thrown towards Laura after it became apparent that

J.T. Leroy's, was a kind of creation kind of a real person but not really it's such a weird kind of I don't even really know the truth about it all to be honest but I really like

to take this book as a book as a piece of fiction and it is a fantastic read it's dark it's troubling it's so dark but it feels it feels real.

It feels like it's written from experience. It feels like it's written, you know, from a lot, without. Yeah. And whatever your thoughts are on, you know, Laura and the whole J.T. Leroy creation, I think you can't take it away from the writing.

Yeah. What do you think? I came to the documentary. The documentary called author about this literary scam. that we're talking about is called author the J.T. LaRoy story and it really is worth a watch. It's fascinating because I watch this documentary

and this documentary which is brilliantly directed by Jeff Fursaig who incidentally made a documentary on Daniel Johnston which I don't know if you've seen called The Devil and Daniel Johnston. It's absolutely amazing. So he's a director who kind of doesn't shy away from the, you know, the really complex artists in the world. And it unfolds as this tale of like this new literary star called J.T. Leroy,

who is a kind of a young, this young, androgynous man, we think man, who's kind of dressed up in these wigs and fedores and sunglasses, almost like a Michael Jackson style kind of get up. really weird, isn't it? And this author is being heralded as the new Enfantébel of the literary world. I mean, having songs written about them and, you know, celebrities are throwing themselves at him. Debbie Harry, Lou Reed. I mean, we're not talking small, you know, small celebs. Tom Waits, I think, was a huge fan. And as the documentary goes on as the story goes on, you find out that J.T. Leroy, the young man, is actually a woman called Savannah Noop.

And then you find out Savannah Noop is actually the sister of the partner of the actual author, Laura Albert. If you're lost, you should be because it's so incredibly layered. And Laura Albert is a woman in her 30s, an author in her 30s, a mother, who basically deemed herself too uninteresting to become a celebrity author. And so had penned these novels under J.T. LaRoy and managed to create this unbelievable circus around this persona. What I find so interesting is that she found herself not interesting enough to become a best-selling author because she felt like she was too old and because she was like a working mom. And Sarah, the novel that you've chosen,

is about a 12-year-old boy whose mother is a prostitute and there's this terrible abusive relationship at the center of the story and abusive sort of mother-son relationship. But for me, it's so sad that she herself didn't think that her stories and her experience was interesting enough to, you know, kind of take out there to the literary circles. It's quite exposing.

It's really exposing, yeah. I think it's kind of, it's a bit Emperor's New Clothes, you know, in a way. You know, it's funny we were talking before we started recording about the art world. And I was kind of, I find the art world quite intimidating at times because I don't, I'm not informed enough sort of thing. And so you feel like you're absolutely outside the bubble of. it and you don't have the right pass to get in. And that's

I think how she felt in terms of in the same way that we were talking about Marlon and that she felt like she had to be something. Everybody felt like they owned a piece of her and told her what she needed to be to be successful. And this is a woman who's in, you know, she's not an old woman. She's in her 30s and she's

a great writer is not being given the opportunities that she feels like she deserves. So she has a go at trying to do it a different way and look what happens. It's so fascinating. Yeah, she plays Hollywood at its own game. Absolutely, absolutely. And I love that. I think that it's, I can totally relate to that, you know, in terms of, you know,

when I was saying about the podcast and about it came out of frustration, nobody would give me a, give me a regular slot. So do you know what I'm going to go and do it myself? It's kind of, I love her balls in terms of there is a woman who absolutely believes in her ability as an author, as a writer, and is going to work out a way to show everybody that she has got the skills and the ability to write great literature. The podcast is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish Queen. Bayleys is proudly supported. Star Wars and or streaming exclusively on. Disney Plus.

Cassian Ander, Empire is choking us. I need all the heroes I can get. From the creators of Rogue One. There is an organized rebel effort. Get a hunt started. Witness the beginning. This is what revolution looks like. Of rebellion.

I'm tired of losing. Wouldn't you rather give it all up to something real? Star Wars Andor. Original series streaming September 21st, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T-N-C-Capply. The Women's Prize for Fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people.

Bailey's is the perfect adult treat, whether in coffee, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Enjoying the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast, share the literary love and be a part of the future of the Women's Prize Trust by supporting our charitable programs for writers and readers. Donations of all sizes help us to continue empowering women, regardless of their age, race, nationality or background to raise their voice and own their story. Search for Support the Women's Prize to find out more. Your third bookshelfy is The Color Purple by Alice Walker.

What was it about this book that made you want to choose it? And how did it cross your path? My wonderful English teacher at Weed Academy, Mrs Conlon, Ms. Conlon, who became Mrs. Duffy. She was awesome. She was so cool. She's great dress-ends. She was really feisty. She was tiny.

She spoke to us. She was one of the few teachers who you felt like wasn't talking down to you or condescending you or treating you like a child. I'm so grateful that she chose this book to be part of our syllabus. Because it wasn't something that we were tested on this. was just part of her teaching throughout the school year. And I have in my hand, my actual copy from school that I found today.

Oh, wow. So lovely that I found it. Yeah, I was just like literally, like on the back, it's got the kind of the beautiful, beautiful picture of Alice Walker. And then it's definitely been through some kind of, I don't know, water damage because all the purple writing's got this lovely kind of, two-toness to it. It's amazing actually.

This was a world that I was so grateful to be learning about and I needed to learn about it because I grew up in a very small little fishing village which was very white, which was very stuck in its ways, which was very protected from the rest of the world or removed from the rest of the world. But in our little hotel we felt my mum and her family, my granddad was in the army in World War II

and he travelled a lot in the army and he made friends all over the world when he was on various tours and a lot of those friends he would continue to go and visit until he passed away and one thing that he always did

with the hotel was he welcomed people to come and work at the summers from all walks of life, all corners of the globe and within the confines of this hotel I learned so much about different cultures and different parts of the world and how different people from different parts of the world

were treated. And this book for me was such an important insight into the experience of these women. And I just think the choice of how she wrote this book as the letters. It just spoke to you in a way that nothing ever had prior to this. We were kind of giving it to read And it's that thing where you can, okay, read up to page whatever.

And I read it from cover to cover and then did that. I think I read it sort of four times because I kind of didn't want these women to leave me. I kind of wanted them to keep teaching me. And yeah, I think it's one of the most important books I've ever read, I think. And for so many reasons and just the insight and what I learned from it. And the compassion, I think, that I walk away. from being grateful for from this book. I feel exactly the same.

I don't think I'd be the person that I was today if I hadn't had this book on my A-level syllabus and was in a similar position to you that just a brilliant teacher who didn't do things by the rule book introduced this to us. And I just had never read anything that made female endurance into poetry.

Yeah. Female endurance had been so literally presented to me before in lots of different ways. And then suddenly I was like, oh, no, it's like a poetry what women go through in any given lifetime. And female friendship and sisterhood and lesbianism and resilience. Yeah. As it says in the book, I still can't drive past like a field of purpose. purple without thinking of this book, or even probably seeing anything purple. It just takes me straight back. And I love the language that it's written in.

You know, it's written in their, it's written in the characters speak. And you're almost sat next to them as the letters are being written. And it's just an amazing piece of writing. I wonder how you feel about the adaptation of this book on screen. and generally your thoughts on books becoming films and that landscape. Yeah, I think that there are some that work, there are some that don't. I think there are some that exceed the expectation of the book. But I also think that we need to step away from constantly comparing

because a film is a very different experience to a book. Because when you read a book, you're creating the images in your head. You're creating them. whereas in a film it's someone else's vision that Alice Walker Colour Purple was a really interesting discussion point and I had this

recently I'm trying to think if it was I think it might have been Ama Santi actually I did a show on BBC 4 called Life Cinematic which was my absolute dream because I got to sit with film creatives and talk about the films that inspired them and we had Amma on

and she was fascinating and she was great. And the colour purple was one of our choices. And we talked about, you know, there was some really bad press about Spielberg being the person that made this film. You know, should a white middle-aged man be telling the story should he be in charge of this vision?

And she was so eloquent in a way that I can't be about it. And just said that he absolutely was the right person for the job. And also, you know, he had the blessing of Quincy Jones. You know, and he handpicked Spielberg to be the person who made this film. Yeah. And you can't really argue with that. I feel like we are seamlessly heading into your fourth bookshelfy, Edith, talking about films and books in the crossover. Your fourth choice is Daisy Jones and the Six by Taylor Jenkins Read,

which for me I was just like Cameron Crow's almost famous as playing on a loop in my head reading this book. isn't it the most sumptuous nostalgic 70s just gulp of amazingness? I had, this is a

sorry, this is a bit of a kind of name drop moment but I was, I interviewed Johnny Marr you know, previously Smiths, but very much of his own talents be that as a solo artist or Han Zimmer's go-to guitarist. I interviewed him and then he introduced me to his daughter

Sonny after we done the interview who I just immediately connected with. She's an amazing, wonderful, wonderful person. And we sort of swapped numbers and kept in touch. And she sort of emailed me and was kind of like, can I send you some books? And I was like, absolutely, she worked at publishers. And one of the first books, I think it was the very first book she sent me,

was Daisy Jones and six. And I literally ate it. I was so, like, you know, I love all that kind of era and the music, that music world. and I didn't know anything about it. I didn't even read the author's name before I sort of, you know, dived into the book. And I believed it so much

that as soon as I finished the book, I went straight onto Google and searched for Daisy and was a heartbroken that she didn't exist, that she wasn't real. I was like, I think I actually shouted at my computer screen, no!

I was like, oh my God, because it was just, It's really cleverly written in the way that it's kind of, you know, an interview set up. It's really clever. And they had me hook, line and sing out, sorry if it's spoiler alert for anybody who's not read the book. But you should still read it. And oh my God, I just loved it. And I was so sad when it ended because I didn't want to leave that world.

It's a world we all wish that we all wish that we've been part of at some point. Oh, wanting to be Daisy Jones. It's worth saying Daisy is a young girl coming of age in LA in the late 60s. She's sneaking into clubs on the sunset strip, sleeping with rock stars, dreaming of becoming a singer. And she just has that incredible beauty that makes people do quite mad things. And she just becomes the centre of this sort of whirlwind, doesn't she? this band and this coming together and crossing paths of so many brilliant, interesting characters that were all in that business and all completely the stuff of legend, aren't they?

Yeah, and everybody just falling in love with that. It's really interesting because I was kind of just looking at the book before chatting to you and I just watched Todd Haynes' documentary about Velvet Underground that's brilliant if people want to watch it. And weirdly there's a similar situation there where this band exists and then Nico arrives and she kind of sweeps in and sort of almost like in a hypnotic nature. Everybody falls in love with art.

You know, and there's a kind of similar arc to that whole thing there as well which kind of made me think of that. But she's, you know, and I kind of remember when I've discovered that she wasn't real, first thing I did was just put on Stevie Nix, Edge of 17 and dance around to it.

And because that's kind of who I saw really when I was reading this book was sort of Stevie Nix. And I was really interested. I was interested but didn't want to find out whether she was inspiration for the writing or who or what was inspiration for the writing. It's so reminiscent of so many bands that we've been intrigued by over the years. You know, bands that when they split and we get, all of the incredible gossip about what was happening.

I shouldn't say gossip, but when we get any insight into what was truly happening at the time, I mean, you couldn't write some of it, to be honest, because it's so heavily ego-driven and it really is people's dreams. You know, that's what I think this book does so brilliantly, is just gets under the skin of what that aspiration really is to become the centre of rock. Yeah, I don't think there's a... any other book I've read that's made me think that the people that I'm reading about are real people. I've obviously imagined characters in my head, you know, whenever you read a book,

you kind of create what they look like and situations in your head whilst you're reading it. But there's never been an experience when I finished the book and just thought, oh, I'm going to go and listen to, I'm going to go see where that, if that album's on Spotify, what? They're not real. It was like, so gutted. So genuinely gutted. I'm interested.

Is there a crossover between what pulls you towards music and what pulls you towards books? It's interesting because with music, as I get older, I'm pulled more towards lyrics, whereas I'm definitely a kind of melody person. So I will nine times out of ten have the lyrics. wrong to a song, unless it's one I've listened to like 900 times. REM's Sidewinder Sleeps is probably one of my favorites that me and all my mates have always totally got wrong. Because I'm one of those people where someone will get into a conversation about lyrics of a song and they'll get really like deep and I'll just have to go, I've no idea.

I'm just really like the way it sounds. and I think that's all right, you know, because it's about an emotion. Yeah. And with books, books for me seem to be about recommendations, wordly. What I find annoying is that I don't read enough. And I wish I had a bit of Keanu Reeve skills from the Matrix, you know, where he kind of plugs in and it's like, I can do kung fu. And I wish that I could kind of plug in and sort of inhale a book because I have such a

massive pile of books that I've bought from being enticed by the cover, the author, the title of the book. But I find that most of the books that I actually get around to read in are have been recommendations or have been sent to me by friends or people that I know. This book is so heavily 70s influence. I mean, it really does kind of take over your senses and makes you feel like you're in that time. I'm wondering if you feel like you're born in the right era, is there an era that you feel like you were destined to be born in? Just weren't.

Is it 70s LA as per this novel? Part of me thinks, you see, I wanted to be Carrey Fisher and the Blues Brothers. In the same way that I was obsessed with Marlin, I had a Blues Brothers obsession where I had this little white portable TV in my room and my dad was always someone who had the latest gadget. And so he, at one point, we had two VHS players. And I had one in my room with my little white portable TV. And I would just go to bed at night, put the Blues Brothers on,

and fall asleep to it most nights at various points of the film. And I would just repeat. It's like Groundhog Day to get the next day sort of thing. It's weird because there are different times where I feel like, oh yeah I'd quite like to have been around like in Marlins era you know the kind of whole rat pack sort of vibe I would have looked after her and then you know you Daisy Jones you go oh yeah that's my era I think I'm just fickle

when it comes to to you know the kind of romantic notion around different eras and what they throw up musically and I think I get something from everything I do want to ask one quick question before we move off from Daisy Jones and the 6th. I worry constantly about my children, not yet born, but I often worry about things that my unborn children may or may not do. One of the things I am very worried they might do is decide to become actors.

Are you what, because I know too much, I just know too much. Scientists, that's fine. I don't know what that entails. Are you worried about your children becoming rock stars? Well, I am more concerned about them wanting to set up their own YouTube pages, if I'm being honest. I found videos on an iPad of my 8-year-old pretending he had a little YouTube channel. And I, so I was like, Spike, you are awesome. You're so good at talking about computer games and race cars and stuff like that.

and it's absolutely fine to do it for yourself and stuff, but you are not setting up your own YouTube page. I'm just telling you now, sort of thing. So I have more concerns about that kind of thing. That's the only thing I don't want them to do is to be like social media people. Yeah. You know, like TikTokers or YouTubers or what it's like. I mean, have fun doing it, but have, you know, have a skill.

have a have a passion have something that you you know that you can that you can that's that's not just for you that's for other people as well edith just encouraging empathetic connected almost embarrassing mum already like the amount of times I hear shut up mum of a day is brilliant We're going to come on to your fifth and final book shelfy. And it's a very, very tender and heartbreaking story, actually, that does centre around motherhood and family. And that's Abby Morgan's. This is not a pity memoir, which is actually not out until 2022.

But I too have an advanced copy. Yes, do you? Yes. I was very lucky to work with Abby on I can't remember how many times it had been on I think it was maybe the third production she'd had on of a play of hers called Splendor at the Dom Mar Warehouse so yeah I've got a little cheeky advance copy as well

I mean she's obviously a very prolific screenwriter this is a really different type of work isn't it it's her own voice it's her telling the past two or three years of her life where her husband, Jacob, has gone through a terrible illness and she herself was cope with breast cancer. Talk to me about why this is on your list. She's such a brilliant, talented, tenacious, funny woman. She is, she's brilliant. I was lucky enough to meet her. It'd be nine years ago now because I was pregnant with Spike when we met at Latitude Festival. I was asked to host a Q&A with her. And so we kind of got

in touch beforehand to chat and stuff. And kind of since that point, we've kind of kept in touch and hung out and sent emails and, you know, what not. And when she was diagnosed with her breast cancer, a friend of mine, Gemma, who used to be

her, she was the first nanny we ever had for Rudy and she retrained into alternative health and healing. We used to joke about her being the child whisperer and then she just has this amazing healing and wonderfully calm and a quality to her that put her in touch with Abby and just to see if she could help in any way and and then you know lockdown happened and everybody kind of retracted slightly into their own caves for a bit and I'd kind of occasionally

reach out and see how she was doing I didn't want to you know bother her or fill up any space that she needed for her family and her but I am and then about six weeks ago she got in touch and she sort of said I've written a book can I send it to you and I was like uh no of course you can't it's like I would be honoured and so this book arrived and I literally I read it in like two days I just it's like she's sat next to you telling you this story because she's got this amazing energy and specific way when she talks in that she's she can go from like one thing she'll flit across to another conversation you know talking to you obviously but about a different subject and then go somewhere else then she'll come back she's just got this kind of amazing brain and way of energy of talking and she's written it in that way and it's so authentic to how she thinks and talks

but she's also gone there with regards to you know Jacob was diagnosed with MS quite a few years ago and had been coping with it to an extent and then tried this medication, which unfortunately had detrimental effect on his health. And he went into a coma. And I don't want to go into detail about it because I think people need to read this experience to fully appreciate what they all went through. But the way that she finds humour in the situations, but then also in the way that she's brutally honest about her thoughts, which makes me feel. comforted by knowing that it's okay to have thoughts because they're not actions and sometimes

thinking something is a good way of addressing something and so I just think that this book will be so many things to so many people and I think her courage and sharing this story should be applauded and celebrated it's a brilliant brilliant book and it's such a love story as well it just helps you just put so many priorities in the right order, which is just what the past two years have been about as well, haven't they? I mean, it's just taking the mask down in so many different ways. And, you know, you're in the public eye and Abby in lots of ways also has like a public facing job. And do you feel like not having that mask? I mean, like you said, you're so nice. and there's so many parts of you in what you do.

But was there like a mask falling and replacing? Or what's that journey of prioritising been like for you? It's been readjusting in a way, to be honest, because I think what I did do is feel comfortable with talking more about my own sort of not struggles. But I talked quite a lot about how the lockdown affected me on a daily basis and kind of how I'd got to the point where, you know, there were days where I would wake up and I could instantly feel a fog. And it's kind of like the most important

thing is recognising that, not beating yourself up about it and just acknowledging it and kind of going, oh, all right, it's going to be one of those days. Well, do you know what? I can, I'll do my best to get through that because tomorrow's another day and hopefully it'll be a, be a clearer day. And so I think that, I think, you know, part of our, part of your role, if you are in, you know, your job involves you being in the public eye is, is acknowledging stuff that everybody's going through. And I think that with, with lockdown and the situation that everyone's been through, you know, it's not like anyone's got a kind of VIP pass to get out of it. It's kind of everybody's in the same situation, you know, in terms of the restrictions that we've all had and we've all been through. And I really missed people. I really missed the kind of interaction with being in a room with people.

And I found homeschooling really hard. And I think that it was about being honest about those things and not about kind of having some kind of Instagram filter on your life through COVID. It's about being honest about that. not being ashamed about being honest about that. And that's what I get from Abby's book actually is about being honest about something, whether that's internally or externally is a good thing. It's like my mum used to always say it's better out than in. And I think that's so true.

And even since reading the book, I feel like it's kind of weirdly being therapy in a way in that I, feel like I can maybe be honest with things that I've been scared to be honest with in the past about you know having conversations with people that I'm someone who will always shy away from conflict I it's kind of I'd rather be the kind of peacekeeper but sometimes things need to be said and sometimes things

it's better to face that and have that conversation because there's a way of talking through it there's a way of coming to a conclusion there's a way of address in a situation and I think I've found a lot of courage in addressing that side of me through reading Abbey's book actually that's such a wonderful thing I appreciate you so much Edith and I feel like there is so much honesty that comes through just how you how you do what you do and it really is an invitation to anyone is. in this industry to do the same. So thank you.

You've been an amazing influence on me and my life. I just really was so excited to talk to you. Do you think you'll ever write a memoir? Is that on the cards? Hit List UK. I'm so touched by what you've said tonight. It really really means so much to me. Thank you so much.

I've got fear and weirdly I'm seeing Abby on Saturday and it's one of the things I'm going to speak to her about is because there's a couple of things that I want to do I've got a short film I want to write which is about my granddad there's a piece of fiction I want to write which is called Fisher Last I know what it's about I just don't know how to start it and then I had a thought the other day because my my mum's want to

seven girls. They all begin with E. Wow. And unfortunately, one of them passed away. And I want to document each and every one of them before they, you know, before I lose them in some way, shape or form. I'm not interested in writing my story, but what I want to write is other people's stories and how they've affected me, if that makes sense. A natural empath. Edith the Empath. I'll write it for it. It'll be an autobiography. I'll write it before you. My final question is a hard one.

And I don't know what style sign you are. What's your style sign? Capricorn. Decisive. Good. We're going to get a good answer here. If you had to choose one book from your list, as a favourite, you can keep one and the others have to fade into a sort of sci-fi haze.

Which one would it be and why? Alice Walker, the colour purple. Easy choice, actually. Well, not an easy choice, but for so many reasons, I think, as well, just having inspiring people around you as well to guide you is very important. And I've been lucky to have lots of those in my life, but I'm eternally grateful for Ms. Conlon, Mrs. Duffy, for introducing me to this book and what I learned from it, its writing, its characters, its author,

is life-changing, really. God bless those English teachers, aren't there? Thank you so much for talking. talking to us, Edith. It's been a pleasure. So lovely, lovely, lovely to chat to you. I just wish it was in person. Next time, please. I'm Zawi Ashton and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Please rate and review this podcast. It's the easiest way to help spread the word about the female talent you've heard about today. Thank you so much for listening. I hope to see you

next time. You've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast, brought to you by Baileys and produced by Birdline Media.