Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S4 Ep4: Bookshelfie: June Sarpong

Episode Date: November 11, 2021

TV presenter, executive and author June Sarpong tells Zawe Ashton how storytelling has played a central role in her life.    June must be one of the most well known faces on TV - but more recently she’s become known as an opinion maker and author who’s not afraid to engage in politics, and speak her mind. Alongside being a key voice in the Remain campaign, an ambassador for The Prince’s Trust and co-founder of the business platform, Women: Inspiration and Enterprise, she’s also written three books, and her memoir, The Only One in the Room, is due for release in 2022. In addition to this, June is Director of Creative Diversity for the BBC, ensuring diversity is embedded in the organisation, both in front of and behind the camera.    June’s book choices are: ** Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen ** I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings by Doctor Maya Angelou ** Women Who Run With The Wolves: Contacting the Power of the Wild Woman by Clarissa Pinkola Estes (with an honourable mention for Sacred Contracts by Caroline Myss) ** Until Today by Iyanla Vanzant  ** White Teeth by Zadie Smith   Zawe Ashton, acclaimed actress, director, playwright and author, hosts Season Four of the chart-topping Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. The new Women’s Prize Podcast season continues to celebrate the best fiction written by women, by interviewing inspirational women about the books that have most influenced their life and career.   Make sure you listen and subscribe now, you definitely don’t want to miss the rest of Season Four.   This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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We were both in New York recently, weren't we? And I texted you and said, oh, can you come for dinner? You said, I'm actually on the plane. And I had actually texted some friends that I was supposed to meet saying, June Sarpong might join us for dinner. And when I message going, she's actually not in the country. I've got the message on my phone. My friend went, oh, man, she's an icon.

With thanks to Bailies, this is the women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. Hello, I'm Zawi Ashton and I'm your brand new presenter for season four of the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. The podcast that speaks to women with lives as inspiring as any good fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. My guest today is the beloved TV presenter, author and director of creative diversity at the BBC, June Sarpong OBE. June must be one of the most well-known faces on TV, starting out on MTV in the late 90s,

followed by a nine-year stint on T4, during which he interviewed absolutely everyone from Kanye to Tony Blair, and hosted Nelson Mandela's legendary 90s. birthday concert in Hyde Park. Similarly to last week's guest, Edith Bowman, June has been such an inspiring presence in the entertainment industry for me from a very formative age, a little bit like the title of her upcoming memoir, The Only One in the Room. June was often the only black British female face on popular TV and her whole essence just really spoke to me. She was carefree and smart with a huge warm laugh and just a really opinionated pundit and style icon and it just felt like she could talk to anyone and always remain true to herself. I'm now lucky enough to call her a friend

and it's a pleasure to see that those things haven't changed. This is June Sarpong. Oh June, I just love that you've got the time to come and talk. It was you. I had to. Yeah, I had to make the time. Are you kidding me? You are one of the most prolific people, I know, full stop. And I do feel like my youngest self is just in constant celebration when I meet you or when I see you. Despite the, you know, the heady days of MTV and T4 and you being for me such a beacon. on television because you really were speaking to every non-white woman, I think,

who was interested in popular culture. And we talk more now about how important that is, but it is really important that you know that really that inspiration at a formative time was not coming thick and fast and you really are a handful of people who I can really call on emotionally to think about reaching the goals and thinking about the stepping stones to becoming what I wanted to be. Oh, darling.

Well, you have made my day, my morning, my evening, my 24 hours. It's wonderful hearing you say these amazing things about me and thank you very much. But I think the same also applies to you because sometimes you forget the impact that your presence can have, particularly when your presence stands out because there is nobody else like you. And I think that in a way, even back then, maybe it was even more powerful because there was nothing.

You know, the wonderful thing about now for young people coming out, now there's a lot, not enough, but there's far more than then. So, yeah, it's quite amazing. And just lovely to see that transformation that is slowly happening, but at least it's happening.

At least it's happening and you're right it is about looking to the future as much as it is about looking to the past and obviously being as present as we can in the moment and I'm and that feels actually like an overarching theme of your choices today that I'm really excited to get into with you. You do now are an author of four books so really no three the third the fourth one I haven't started I'm supposed to. My publisher was like, can you get on with it? That's what I was about to say.

So you've taken some time out from writing to speak to us today, which makes it even more special. But your message and your writing style is so of the moment and is so acknowledging of the past in a way that it doesn't constrain the person reading it who's looking for that inspiration, which I think is so.

refreshing and very hard to do. Yeah. What has been your experience of writing the books that you've written so far? We're talking about the power of women, the power of privilege, how white people can challenge racism and diversify. And the upcoming, the only one in the room. Yes, the upcoming. TBC.

TBC, the operative word. You know the funny things, Al. And I know that you will connect with this just because of your own personal story. You know, I was very lucky at a young age to be around lots of diverse people from different walks of life and different backgrounds. And so I was always very comfortable with that. And then obviously going into television where the purpose of the kind of TV that I do is about connecting with people. And so because of that, I've been lucky enough to see the best in people, whoever they are, wherever they're from, and to be exposed to so many different types of people that on the

surface would seem completely opposite to me. And I think because of that, I've always believed in the inherent goodness of people. And so even if, even if somebody is behaving in a way that continues the old exclusive and discriminatory ways of being, that's not necessarily because that's who they are. That's also because of conditioning and because of the way we've all been socialised. And so I've always written my books with that in mind in terms of speaking to the better nature of the reader. And also hopefully shining a light on where we're all.

coming from. So for those that have experienced discrimination in society, and for those that are perhaps from the majority group. And I think that if we're able to do that, then we understand the other, quote, unquote, and there's a way to find common ground. And I think in the end, that's what we all want anyway, isn't it? It's definitely what I want. Yeah, sure. It's definitely what I realize brings the best out of me. And it's really exciting to now think about your literature being in the world, but also this brilliant new posts that you have at the BBC as head of diverse thinking. I'm, you know, rhapsodying on what your role is, but you are there to implement consciousness around diversity in front of and behind the camera and at script level.

Tell me a bit about that new role. Yes, of course. So the role is a director of creative diversity. and I don't commission, so my department doesn't actually make programs, but what we do is we act as a almost as a conduit and a bridge into the BBC for diverse creatives. And we work with our commissioning teams to help them be more inclusive. And I think that really the core purpose of what we want to do and are aiming to do is just to bake this stuff into the DNA of the creative process.

so that our commissioners just feel completely comfortable with thinking outside the box and perhaps giving an opportunity to something that might not seem obvious. And I think a good example of that, obviously, you know, now it seems like, of course, there's a no-brainer. But at the time, you know, she hadn't done her own show in this way. Obviously, I'm talking about Michaela Car, obviously, Michaela had had chewing gum,

but still she wasn't directing chewing gum in the same way. With this, literally she did the whole thing. And so for peers, our head of drama, to see, yes, this incredible, unique young woman can do this. And I'm going to give her absolute freedom to just create and spend a lot of money doing it. It's not a cheap show. And it's a brilliant show.

know. And the wonderful thing is, look, that show was very local in its setting and that it's a black woman in East London and you and I resonate with that. 100%. It's where we are now. We are two women. In Hackney. It's stomping ground. It's not. But it was very global in its message. And that's why I think it's done so well. So hopefully we can help create lots more stories like that. It's about story and story as a universal is our universal language and if we're living in a world where we're sort of giving a message that not everyone is allowed to tell stories like something's gone really seriously wrong so I'm excited that you're there in that new post as an interrupter

of nonsense that's what you said not me I'm talking on behalf of myself, not on behalf of the BBC, very important distinction to make. Stories takes up so much of your daily life as a writer, as someone who's now one of our newest gatekeepers of story. What has story meant for you in your life? Story or reading, how has it influenced you? Stories are everything. And I think even at a sort of macro, macro, level. That is why we have the society that we have based on the stories that we tell ourselves. Whether they're true or not is not the point, but we still reinforce some of these stories. And then your own life. Your own life is really a mirror of whatever inner stories that you are

projecting on a daily basis. And often, you know, when you change the story, you change your life. And I wonder if actually that's really what we should be focusing on more when we're dealing with sort of issues around inner healing and evolution as a human being, etc. That actually we should focus on the stories and the stories that are sort of on loop in your brain and how to rewrite those stories. So I think for me, you know, as you say, in terms of the impact that they've had, they're everything. And I think as a child, the stories that I was told really supported my identity and the foundation of who I am as a woman and as the daughter of African immigrants. And I know I'm sure you connect with this from your mother's family, but my family are from Ghana. And our storytelling is done via an oral tradition. Much of it is mythology and folklore.

and it's passed on generation to generation. And I remember as a kid, when I was a child, my grandmother passed away, sadly, quite young. And so I was about sort of seven or eight when she died. And then my great-grandmother, who was really the matriarch of our family and the powerhouse, this incredible woman, she would come and visit us in the UK every few years.

And I remember as a kid being so excited about her storytelling because I got to listen to all of these amazing, amazing folks tales and all this mythology that was in our culture, such as a Nancy de story. And they were very affirming for me as a young girl. And so I was never the kid who was, you know, obsessed with the fact that I didn't see black children in books or whatever that, you know, sometimes children of color experience. Because my family kept all of our culture at home and it wasn't written down. but it was spoken. And so it seeped into my DNA, as it were.

And I think it was such a good grounding. And then when I became a teenager and I was sort of looking for books that made sense about who I was, it was about finding those female voices that really connected with my soul. And I was a very, I'm sure you were to a very talkative teenager. Me? Me? Never. What?

Yes. Very much so. A very opinionated teenager. Might have been one or two. Just a few opinions floating around. Just a couple. You know, my report cards would always be. June is a very able student, but must talk less and listen more.

It was either she's talking too much or it was like she's just in her head. Yeah. She's like, she's in a dream world. She's daydream. She's dreaming with her eyes very much. open. It was at two speeds. Celebrated in my household because Ghanaian culture is a

matriarchal society, it's a matriarchal culture. So women are expected to be opinionated and everybody's comfortable with that. So in my home, that was fine. But outside, not as much. And so I was looking for the kind of, I don't know,

Western examples of what I'd experienced in an African context. And so the first book that I've selected, of course, is Jane Austen Pride and Prejudice. And I think, you know, reading about a woman like Elizabeth Bennett who've refused to be constrained by the society of the day, but still wrestled with being her authentic self in the context of love. And, you know, those are themes that play out. modern day. You don't need to go back 200 years for that. I can come to 2021 for some of that.

And, and you know, I was, I think I was, I don't know, I think I was 12 or 13 when I first read that book. And was it at school? At school? Because I had feminist teachers. I had these incredible, I went to this amazing girls school called Connacht School for Girls. And it's amazing, a lot of great women have been to that school. Sharon White was at my school. Amazing. Amazing. A lot of Olympians were at my schools. It's kind of great. This local state school that just expected so much from its students. And so, yeah, so my teachers gave me that book, and I was just hooked.

I was like, at home. I mean, I wasn't watching 5 o'clock TV when I got home from school. I was with that book. So that tells you how serious this thing was. Amazing. And I just totally was engrossed. And I just really connected. with this woman.

But I also connected with elements of her sisters because it was almost as if really she needed to integrate those elements of her sisters into herself too to be fully whole. Yes. And in a way, that's what Darcy brings out in her. The challenge that he, it's obvious what her challenge is to him.

But I think his challenge to her is to integrate those elements that perhaps she has suppressed in wanting to be independent and her true self. And so that's what I love about that book. And it just, yeah, it's just, yeah, it's great, isn't it? I love your take on Pride and Prejudice here because what it's bringing to mind, actually, June,

is I did my first ever, I can tell you, as the creative diversity head. I did my first ever period piece this year as an actor. First ever in a film. a couple of decades long career. And we are seeing the tide turning. We are. Because that wouldn't have even happened five years ago.

It wouldn't have happened five years ago. So we're saying thank you. Hamilton. We're saying thank you, Bridgeton. Yes. And Les Mis. BBC doesn't get enough credit for Le Mise. Because actually we were the first lot.

We did it before. Le Mies. David Copperfield more recently. So I did my first ever period piece. It was the first period piece of a couple of other people of diasporic heritage actually in the cast. And we are the leads of this film. And it is a Jane Austen-inspired romp called Malcolm's List.

Just plugging it now. Mage. I'm obsessed already. In a year or so. Are we serving corset action all the way? We're serving corset. We're serving bonnet. We're serving feathers. Fathers.

And so to be... Carriages. Darling. Darlene. A plenty. Obsessed. That's already. But Jude, what was so interesting.

Having also read Pride and Prejudice at school and so many other female-centered books of that time, stepping into the 1800s, I imagine that there was going to be this sort of leap that I would have to make, which is the internalised racism, essentially. Can we also talk about that too? Well, when we're thinking about aspirational genres like historical drama, like sci-fi, we weren't there, okay? So this genre is aspirational. So why don't we interpret it in ways that make it imaginative and inclusive? Inclusive.

So I'm there thinking, right, stepping into 1800, oh, God, am I going to have to imagine myself as the white depictions of these characters that I've seen? And as the penny started to drop June, I realized being a woman in the 1800s in England, didn't feel that far away from my mother's experience as an African immigrant in the UK. 60s and 70s. In the 60s and 70s. Because we are talking about a different kind of constraint. Constraint.

Yeah. And I was like drawing all of these parallels, this is a long, convoluted way of saying, I wonder if there's something about the immigrant experience that you were sensing or picking up on while you were connecting to this novel. You know, it's so funny because I've never even thought of it that way. In a way, I think I connected with her more from a sort of gender perspective of knowing the conflict of being a woman that has a lot within you. And not being somebody that can suppress that.

I never ever questioned the fact that it was an all-white book. Because for all of us, white is the default for normal in terms of how we've been conditioned in society. And what I love about the work that people like David Olusoga do is they plug in the gaps. Because you're saying, were you going to have to put on your best, you know, Kira Knightley or whatever? But actually, we were there. There were yous at that time. There were me's at that time. They've just been written out of history.

They were there. They were there at the highest courts in Britain. They were there with kings and queens. They were there. And then also don't forget about the lineage and the heritage prior slavery and colonialism. There were kings and kingdoms and we know civilization is based on African culture. So I think that sometimes, We saw, because so much has been erased,

we even have a skewed view of what that time was like. Yes. And I think that in a way with what you're doing with new pieces like Malcolm's List. Malcolm's List, darling, is that we are refilling in the gaps, you know? Such a good point. We're not making this stuff up. No. Not like sci-fi where you're coming up with stuff.

Yes. You know, this is real. They were there. We're just plugging it back in. That's all. Absolutely, June. I've been working with an organisation called Lit in Color with Penguin. And they are and we are committed to changing some very, very disturbing statistics within our curriculum in the UK, which, you know, to pull one from the air, only one UK GCSE English lit course features a novel or a play written by a black author.

Pupils are leaving school without having read a single book by an ethnic minority. author and it feels like an uphill struggle because I think people think we're trying to say that Jane Austen shouldn't be on our curriculum. Of course it should. It's just about making that table bigger. And adding. And adding.

And adding. But the thing that sort of heartens me and makes me feel absolutely hopeful about all of it all is also because the young people themselves are looking for this. literature. So even if it's not there, they are looking to access it and asking their teachers. Actually, David Oloosogo had a great quote, and I won't misquote him. But basically, he was talking about the fact that more and more teachers, even if it's not on the curriculum, are teaching their students about black history. And the students are

asking for it, particularly after George Floyd's murder. And so I think the great thing is young people of all ethnicities are curious and are questioning whether or not what we've been told about certain groups is true or not even if they don't have the experience of those certain groups you know like you I believe proximity is the best way to deal with any of this stuff when you know people you love people you look at it completely differently

but if you don't have the benefit of proximity then actually media and literature and creativity is how you experience the other. And I think that more and more young people were curious about learning about the other for themselves, not just necessarily what they've been told. I would love to move on to your second choice, which is, for me, it's one of the most important books of the 20th century,

it's also one of the most important books in my life. When we're talking about pulling more seats up to the table whilst I was reading Pride and Prejudice as part of the curriculum, this book was given to me off menu by a teacher. And the book I'm referencing is I Know Why the Cage Bird Sings by Dr. Maya Angelou. Talk to me about what this book means to you and how it ended up in your hands and what the response was for you to this incredible piece of literature. Actually, you know, I want to just give you a fact before you.

Please. Before you go into it, June, the title of this book is actually taken from a poem. Did you know this? No. It's taken from a poem by a writer called Paul Lawrence Dunbar, who was an emancipated slave, who actually became one of the first African-American writers to establish an international reputation as a writer. And the poem is called sympathy, and it utilizes the symbolism of a chained slave. And I'm quoted to you now, and it's just amazing to sort of try.

track this back, this title back to this, but it's, I know why the cagebird sings, are me when his wing is bruised and his bosom saw, when he beats his bars and would be free. It is not a carol of joy or glee, but a prayer that he sends from his heart's deep core, but a plea that upward to heaven he flings. I know why the cagebird sings. Wow. Wow, right? Wow. Wow.

Talking about the information, the people who were there, the people we aren't taught, people we are not told about. But also talking about the connection, however confined, your outer reality might be. Your inner reality can be something else. Absolutely. Right? And I, sorry, please. No, I was going to say, is that what this book did for you? For sure.

You know, it's funny, so you were talking about your teacher giving it to you off menu. Like I said, I was really lucky I was raised by these sort of great feminists in terms of my teachers. And it was on menu in my school. Fantastic. Yeah, and again, the girls' school, I just think, you know, the way our teachers thought, they wanted to give us books that would empower us as young women. because also it was a very multicultural school help shape our outlook on life as well.

And I read that book like you around the same time. And what you said there has really sort of crystallized for me perhaps why I connected to that book in such a profound way because perhaps I didn't even know that I needed it. Do you know what I mean? Like I said, I never questioned that I necessarily. we expect to see people of color in Western books. Like I said, you know, we had our African traditions,

but I never sort of thought, oh, I have to get that. But I had teachers who understood the value of that. So there were a few books that they had us read, and this was one of them. And I remember the first time I read it, I don't know if it was the same few. It's almost like a shock, isn't it? You're just like, you're just quiet.

And that's hard for me. Yeah. This is a book that stops you in your tracks. And it's the weirdest thing. I understand it more now. So it's a book that I revisit. I try to read it. I try to read it at least once a year or at least every few years.

And I learn something different every time I read it. And I was lucky enough, you know, one of the best things about this job is, you know, you get to meet amazing people. So I knew Maya and got to spend, yeah, and I got to spend time with her in her home. I remember she invited us to Salem in Virginia to see her. And she, I mean, she was an incredible cook.

Wow. And she made, girl, the best fried chicken. We weren't doing salad, put it that way. We had fried chicken, you know, rice and beef. Collard greens, I mean, she went in. Are we saying that actually what we also needed was Maya's cookbook? She has a cookbook. Stop.

Oh yeah, I've got it signed by her. Oh, yes, it's one of my most precious possessions in my kitchen. Myers at my Andrew's cookbook, signed by her. Yeah, yeah. Isn't that amazing? Because I'm going to just take it actually a second before we riff on this. It's just contextualize, I know why the cagebed sings. It's the first volume of seven books of autobiography by Dr. Maya Angelou where she invokes her childhood with her grandmother in the American South of the 1930s.

She faces discrimination violence, poverty, abuse. But there is so much hope, joy, achievement, celebration that is part of this coming of age story that illustrates how strength of character and a love of reading can help you overcome trauma. Yeah. Do you feel like books or literature have helped you overcome trauma in your life? Of course. I feel like the answer is resoundingly yes just because of what you've already openly shared. But especially when we're talking about racial trauma, it's something that like you're saying is sometimes experienced. And there isn't the language until we find it on the page.

Yes. Yes, yeah. And then we come to understand the mechanism. Yes. And then we can connect it with our emotional and spiritual world. Talk to me about how literature has helped you overcome. Yes, so much so. I mean, I think literature has been there in every part of my life when I've needed it.

And it's funny how you always find the book that you need, isn't it? Or that book finds you, perhaps, in the most sort of random of ways. And I think that sometimes you don't have the answers yourself. And as you're saying, you don't even have the language to even be able to express whatever conflict or confusion that you're experiencing. And what books do is that they show you one, you're not alone because somebody else has been there. And more importantly, not only have they been there, they've managed to come out the other side. because sometimes you need to see that there is light at the end of whatever dark tunnel that you're in. The other thing that books can do is they put everything into context.

So there's this amazing guru. We love a good guru, don't we? We do. We do. We really do, we really do. Sat guru. Have you heard of Sat Guru in your life? This is literally my, you are my Christmas shopping list.

You know, like verbal verbal book shopping. Yeah, a bit of Sat Guru. So Sat Guru is great Indian guru. And there's two things, I mean, he talks about lots of things, but two things that really connected with me. So one was he was talking about,

he did like a sort of talk about lockdown and, you know, some of the sort of stresses that people were going through. And he said, you know, this is such a unique moment. The world is in complete reset mode. and we might never have this again, certainly not in most of our lifetimes.

So use this time wisely. And he said, you know, you should focus on becoming 10% better in every area of your life. So 10% better friend, 10% better businesswoman or whatever, 10% better daughter, 10% 10% better partner, 10% 10% 10% 10% better exercise, etc, etc. And then the other thing he said, which just kind of just knocked me for something.

is he said, you know what? We don't sit still enough to marvel in the miracle of being human. It's like the fact that you are here is literally one in a million. It's a million sperm to fertilize that one egg. There's a million options. Imagine there were in a million options.

You're the one that was, selected. It's like being an actor. It's like being a... Except for... There's just lots of burns and you choose one, okay?

Okay? Commissioners, producers. Except for being an actor, you'd rather be the egg. You'd rather be the egg. You'd want to be the producer a bit of all. But that is such a great piece of reading to have come across at that time.

And I was just like, wow. he's right. And he's like, if parents said that to their kids, not in an arrogant way, not like, you know, in some sort of self-centered way, which we know produces all sorts of other problems, but in a way that says,

actually, the fact that you are here is for a reason. Because there were a million options and you're the one that was selected. What are you going to do with that? And I think that's where the conversation begins. And so for me,

books have always done that for me they've always been a way of healing they've always been a way of growing yeah and laughing too the podcast is made in partnership with bailey's irish queen baileys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people baileys is the perfect adult treat whether in coffee over ice cream or paired with your favorite book. Enjoying the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, share the literary love and be a part of the future of the Women's Prize Trust by supporting our charitable programs for writers and readers.

Donations of all sizes help us to continue empowering women regardless of their age, race, nationality or background to raise their voice and own their story. Search for Support the Women's Prize to find out more. You for me are one of the people that I enjoy talking about, spirituality, the world, holistic ways of healing ourselves inside and out. I always text you, like, June, what supplements should I be on when I get an answer immediately. And I love your Instagram recommendations. I'm loving rising woman, by the way.

Isn't it wonderful? Love her. Well, yes. And social media and wellness and that industry, can be so overwhelming. And I'm sort of leading us into your third bookshelfy choice here because this is such a powerful book. And one that feels like it was very, very much part of the growing of that self-awareness

and women's consciousness about themselves. And it's women. And our bodies as well. All of it. All of it. It's women who run with wolves. Colon, contacting the power. of the wild woman by the first-generation American poet of Mestiza Latina descent.

She's a Jungian psychoanalyst and post-trauma specialist. Her name is Clarissa Pinkola Estes. This book is a real call, isn't it? It's the wild woman call. I wanted to quote something that I'd found whilst I was getting into it, which is, the doors to the world of the wild are few but precious. If you have a deep scar, that is a door. If you have an old, old story, that is a door.

If you love the sky and water so much you almost cannot bear it, that is a door. If you yearn for a deeper life, a full life, a sane life, that is a door. Oh, yeah. Tell me about when this book came to you and what the energy you felt after you read it, because it was barely reviewed on publication. Yeah. It was a word of mouth. It was a word of mouth.

Whirlwind. Yeah. Whirlwind, yeah. And has continued to be. This is a book that women pass down. Do you see what I mean? It's a book that it will be a timeless companion for women when they wake up. Or when they get that urge in their soul, that burning where you just know.

No, I'm more than this. This book finds you. And did it find you at the moment when you needed to hear it? hear it or did you find it? No, it found me. So basically, I remember when I was sort of in my late teens also, I always really loved Jada Pinkett. And I loved Jada Pinkett because, you know, she wasn't necessarily the biggest actress at the time, but she always was this powerhouse. She was tiny, the really petite woman. But with so much power, and I liked her before she even married Will,

I just really liked her sort of fire, I would say. You know, she was very good friends with Tupac Shakur, and, you know, she was part of this sort of cool group of interesting African-Americans. And I just liked her. And I remember an interview that she did where she was talking about how she had grown up, you know, in a very sort of tough environment. She hadn't revealed publicly at the time that her mother had been,

an addict, but she alluded to stuff. But she also knew that she was bigger than the environment that she was in. And she said that she'd read a book that changed so much for her as a woman. And it was this book. And I thought, well, if Jada likes it, it's got to be good. Something's going to happen. Something's going to happen. And then when I read it, Zowie, I was like, actually, Jada underplayed the power of this book.

because what Clarissa taps back into and in a way I think that this really is the role of women from indigenous communities and from ancient traditions to give back to the world because of everything that's happened so much of that has been closed down but if you look at those cultures often the woman, the feminine, the divine feminine, was the centre of everything and everything worked around that.

You know, it's a bit like the sort of Queen Bee, isn't it? And what Clarissa does in this book is she puts you back in touch with all of those elements of yourself while still being a central feminine woman if that's how you identify. But she taps into that you don't need to be polite, which is. how girls have been socialised. You can scream if you feel the need to scream. You can laugh. You can be free. But bring it back to source and connection with Mother Nature.

And I believe in God. Not everybody does. But she talks about the power of source and the power of connecting with that higher being and the feminine within that higher being. You know, we've always been taught to look at it. it from the sort of masculine, but actually the balance is both. And all of those cultures had both.

They had, you know, when I look at my ancient African religions, it was very much about Father Sky and Mother Earth, you know, it's the two together. Yeah, always. As an energy rather than the gender. Yeah, it says an energy, exactly. And so that is what this book does. And there are rituals and there are sort of prescriptive tools. to really get you back in touch with that.

Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because we started this conversation of talking about your talkativeness, your effervescence, and your presence on our screens for an incredibly sustained period of time, talking to anyone from Nelson Mandela to Will Smith, to the cast of the newest show. And one might not think from the outside that you would, would need any kind of encouragement to connect to laughter and wildness.

Yes. But the internal world is so different. Yes. And I think that to be able to do that authentically, to be able to connect externally with people in a way that just rings true, you have to have this inner life. Otherwise, you give a false version of yourself. and I think people can see that.

So for me, it's always been important to explore who I am. And then I'm changing. That's the other thing. Certainly not who I was 20 years ago. I wouldn't want to be. I mean, I better not be. I'd want you to be a little bit, if only for some of your incredible outfits, not to minimize your contribution.

But honestly, you know, even just as a screen presence, before, if you could have the television on mute, and we're like, hold on. Who is this presence in front of me? She's something to be reckoned with in the best possible way. But you're so right, going inside to come outside of yourself is massive. And I actually want to go on to what was your fifth choice, but I want to bring it up to fourth choice if that's all right with you,

just because it feels like it's part of this conversation. And your choice until today by Iana Van Sant feels like it feels like it's, It's in communication. You need this. With Clarissa. Oprah calls Ianna the most powerful spiritual healer, fixer teacher on the planet. I think she really is. I mean...

Who is she for you? She is doing some very special work in the world, like really, like deep cellular level of healing special work. Tell us. I must tell you. I must tell you. Yeah. So Ianna Van Sant is a spiritual teacher. and she became famous in America when Oprah started having her on her show

and she would go on the show and talk about her books but also deal with issues for Oprah's guests and she was incredible. And this particular book is quite old. I think it must be at least a decade old by now. And it's a daily devotional in it's basically a page of text for that day. And I don't know how, and everyone calls her Auntie Eyalna, by the way. I don't know how Auntie Eyalna does it, but whatever day you pick up that book,

it's the message you needed to hear. And it's short, but it's just a great, great, great, great book. And it's, you know, it's things like until today, what areas have I been avoiding in my life? and how has that been serving me? Until today, what do I commit to doing in terms of who I want to show up as in the world? I mean, it's just brilliant. And what I love about until today

is what she's saying is that previous beliefs and previous behaviours do not need to determine your present or your future. So you can draw a line in it. Until today, this is what I've been. doing but today onwards I'm going to do something else and that is what's so beautiful

and it's funny because if I may I'd like to talk about two other books by one woman who for me feeds very much into Clarissa Annie Arland's work and this is a woman called Carolyn Mace she started out as an intuitive healer

so her first book was Anatomy of the Spirit what that book did was look at why people don't heal on a sort of spiritual level. But what she talks about is how unresolved issues are held in the body. And you may think I'm avoiding, I'm avoiding, avoiding, but it's growing and it's festering somewhere.

Yes. And so Carolyn Mace's book very much talks about that. And then the other book, which is also a book that I think everybody should read, and I think you in particular will really resonate with this book. It's called Sacred Contracts. Because with anatomy of the spirit, she talked about illness and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. With sacred contracts,

she talks about archetypes. And back to what we were talking about in the beginning in storytelling. So what archetypes have you signed up to as part of your identity? And how do they play out in your life? Well, what I'm hearing between the two books you've chosen and this honourable mention for Caroline's work is honouring a journey of self-examination, really looking at yourself because it's hard, isn't it, to look in the mirror? It is.

I feel like we're finally at a point where we're talking about inherited trauma. We're talking about epigenetics. We're talking about trauma in the DNA. I've got many for that, but I won't put it here. We need another hour, of course, we always do, and as us talking, June. But that is, for me, a turning point. Because there's so much there.

That doesn't make sense. It's because sometimes there are things that you can actually track back to say, oh, yes, this happened, that's why I'm doing this. But then there's stuff where you're like, what this makes no sense in terms of logic of what I know. But no, this might be something your great-grandmother experience. It's maybe something that ancestors way back in the line, and it's just been passed down generation to generation.

And you have to become aware of it in order to create something new for future generations. And it's only when we're aware of it. And often we're not. But it's powerful. It is powerful. We're not just inheriting noses and lips and eyes. We're inheriting the spirit of people too.

And coming from this is going to open up, box, but we haven't unfortunately got time to delve 100% into, but when we come from lineages that celebrate the oral tradition of story, the healing impact of communal storytelling, that can be such a wonderful thing, but then interestingly enough, sometimes those communities do not embrace a therapisting. No. I think the thing that's happened in a weird way, though, is because, and I'll bring it back to, colonialism because actually it became dangerous. The very thing that had been what had sustained those communities and cultures for thousands of years, let's not forget, thousands of years, became very dangerous.

It was dangerous to speak. It was dangerous to share. And so that culture, that tradition was shut down. And I think it comes out in other ways, which is why, if I just use black people as an example, we're very expressive through our music and our creativity because of that, because we know that needs to come out. And I think that actually we need to return to that storytelling tradition

where you're sharing. And even if you're not sharing your personal, experience, you're sharing stories that reflect your personal experience. And so even if it's not in the traditional sitting in front of a therapist in a couch, because that's still a very Western, you know, construct at the end of the day. And there's something quite constraining about that, too. How about a walk in nature and, you know, talking by a tree? Why is it have to be in a rigid office on an uncomfortable chair?

And why does it have to just be an hour as well? Maybe you need 10 minutes one day. Obviously, people have schedules, but I do think there needs to be a much more fluid and expressive way of therapy. We're talking about self-actualization. We're talking about the honoring of past, present and future. As I feel we kind of have this whole conversation.

And to wrap up our chat, which again needs another episode, with your fifth bookshelfy choice, which is White Teeth by Zadie Smith, this encompasses everything we're talking about. It does, doesn't it? This is a multi-generational sprawling story that is about Britain's relationship with immigrants from the Commonwealth. And also an identity. An identity and an unlikely friendship between an Englishman and a Bangladeshi man and all of the characters that come from their meeting. It was, of course, made into a very, very sensational four-parter for Channel 4,

starring Ompuri, Phil Davis, and a very young Naomi Harris. We thank White T for her breakout moment. And this established Zadie as a prodigy. He didn't. She was 24 when this was published. It still blows my mind that she was that young. She was like not long out of university. It's insane.

And then to get the deal that she got at the time. I mean, I love. It was boundary breaking in every sense. And what is it about it that spoke to you? Was it actually Zadie's experience that spoke to you? Because this has been the interesting thing about having these conversations. Sometimes the female author has been as important as a beacon. Yes.

As the literature itself. Yes. Well, I think for me, if you look at all the books I've chosen, with the exception of Pride and Predators, they're all American. And so to get a book about the immigrant, the diverse experience, that was British and contemporary, because also the other thing is, you know, we would also, if they were, they were going back in the past, etc., etc. Even though this did track the generations, it was still very much steeped in the present day.

And so I think to get a book that was contemporary that spoke about the, people that I grew up around, you know, I recognised all of those characters. And then for that book to be written by a woman that could have been my friend at school. And also think about Zadie's poise at 24. Yeah. Jadie hasn't changed. Zadie of today is Zadie of 24. She was serving as Queendom at 24. Yes. She was serving as Queendom. Yes. In her head wrap, with those cheekbones, serving as majorness. You're right.

The optics of an author, when you're looking for someone who you feel could have been part of the fabric of your upbringing, is so important. It's so important. And she gave us that. And she gave us that in bucketments. She didn't just give us that a little bit. She was like, here's some more, here's some more, here's more. I didn't even need the TV series. That was just a bonus.

The book was enough. And then for that story also to take the world by storm. It didn't just take Britain by storm. It took the world by storm. And I think I loved. And I remember Naomi actually did a brilliant interview where she talked about knowing Zadie when they were at Cambridge. So Zadie, I think, was a couple of years older.

But Zadie was the cool girl. But Naomi speaks really candidly about how she always felt like a fish out of water at Cambridge. She didn't figure out how to fit in. Whereas Zadie made them fit in with her. Zadie went in and said, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm running this thing here. And so Naomi said, you know, she would sit and just look at this cool, amazing girl. in awe.

And it's so interesting how she was able to carry that through into the writing, but also into her presence as a woman and an author. I feel like you could be talking about yourself. Because this is how I felt about you and the iconography of you at the time when you were working in the institution of television. I was like, that is someone who is standing out to fit in. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, everything about this makes complete sense to me,

but I can see a rule. I've got a rule breaker on my hands. And I wonder how you feel about your own visibility at the time where you were visible as a black woman in a very institutional space, which is the institute of television. Yes, yes, yes. You know, it's so funny.

So I started in radio. first and I started at KISS FM. Everybody was diverse and actually was probably one of the most inclusive places I've ever worked. So you had sons of, you know, landed gentry next to kids from the estate like myself. And there was no hierarchy. That was the beauty of that place because the thing that brought us all there was the music. And so then when I went into TV, it was completely opposite to my experience in radio. And I was made aware quite clearly.

from the beginning that I was different. But back to the foundation that my parents had instilled in me, I decided that I was going to lead with my point of difference. But I always knew that I genuinely liked people. So it didn't matter if somebody was different than me. There was also going to be stuff where we were the same. And we would celebrate both. Because I've never been uncomfortable with difference.

That's the other thing. It's not a bad thing. You want both. You want similarity and difference, as you say. That's what makes life interesting. It was only once young people would start coming up to me to tell me about what it meant that I then really understood, oh, okay, this is a responsibility.

And so that is in part why I decided that I wasn't going to get involved with some of the things that perhaps my contemporaries were doing. You know, I was never the person staggering out, the nightclub drunk or, you know, all of those things, which were part of the Ladec culture. Because I came up in the Ladec culture. And I very much stayed away from it. One, it was not my thing, but two, I really understood that as the black girl, I didn't have it like that. And so I was not going to have a long career or a sustainable career if I was participating in

some of those activities. The rules were not the same. So real. Well, I've heard you say you didn't have the luxury of being mediocre. No, I didn't at all. Still don't. Let's not get it twisted. We laugh because it's true.

Because it's true. But I felt the sort of privilege of the responsibility of being a representative and being a mirror and a reflection for so many young people have come. color, but also a window into knowing somebody of color for the majority of the nation as well, particularly of a generation. And so, yeah, I definitely felt that that was important. And also it was something I was comfortable talking about with my colleagues. So the wonderful thing is Vernon and Dermann, and all you know, all these great white guys

that I worked with and obviously our producers never pretended that it didn't exist. So we had a very open conversation and a very open way of being around with these issues, which is why we're all still friends to this day. So grateful for you and so grateful for your sharing of that time. I wish I didn't have to wrap up with you, June. There is so much it feels like there is still to get into. Episode two might have to be on the cards. As we do wrap up, I have to ask you.

the question I ask everyone. If you had to choose one book from this list to take with you down the long road to self-actualization, which one would it be and why? Oh no, she didn't do that. As we shed our earthly possession, which ones are going and which one will remain. And then I had so much love for you up until now. Well, I think with the others, when you read them, they are forever imprinted in you and they never leave you.

But I think the one that you need to continually remind yourself of and refresh your soul of this message, I think, is the yarn this until today. I think that's what I would take. Just having those daily devotionals, those affirmations, wherever I was on this desert island I'd probably need that, wouldn't I, if I didn't have anything else? We're not actually on a desert island,

but June, the fact that you've mistaken me for Kirsty Young in a moment of sublime. Madness. Well, you can take Ayanna with you onto that desert island and just know that you have broken so much ground. We're so grateful for the ground that you continue to break. I adore you. And may every, every self-actualization happen for you in the way that you've helped it happen for me.

And I know so many other of my peers. Thank you so much, June, for speaking to us today. And thank you for all that you are and continue to be. And I'm so excited for all your new projects that are coming up. Some we can't talk about yet. But watch a screen near you, people. I'm Zawi Ashton and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast. Please rate and review this podcast.

It's the easiest way to help spread the word about the female talent you've heard about today. Thank you so much for listening. Hope to see you next time. You've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast, brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Star Wars Andor streaming exclusively on Disney Plus. Gassian Ander Empire is choking us I need all the heroes I can get From the creators of Rogue One

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