Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S4 Ep5: Bookshelfie: Nia DaCosta

Episode Date: November 17, 2021

Film director Nia DaCosta chats to Zawe Ashton about directing the new Marvel film -  The Marvels and why she’s proud of the label ‘black, female director’.    Nia is an American Director and Screenwriter. Her debut feature film Little Woods, which she wrote and directed, won her the Nora Ephron Prize at the Tribeca Film Festival and her ambitious update of the classic 1990s horror film Candyman was released earlier this year to critical acclaim, addressing issues such as racial justice, gentrification and black art.   She’s leading the charge bringing new stories - and faces - onto our screens, and showing the world that black narratives  don’t have to be dominated purely by pain and sadness.    Nia will be the first black woman to direct a Marvel film - The Marvels - out in 2022.     Nia’s book choices are: ** Circle of Magic by Tamora Pierce  ** Mrs. Dalloway by Virginia Woolf ** Persuasion by Jane Austen ** The Bread Givers  by Anzia Yezierska ** White Teeth by Zadie Smith   Zawe Ashton, acclaimed actress, director, playwright and author, hosts Season Four of the chart-topping Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. The new Women’s Prize Podcast season continues to celebrate the best fiction written by women, by interviewing inspirational women about the books that have most influenced their life and career. Make sure you listen and subscribe now, you definitely don’t want to miss the rest of Season Four.   This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Oh, I love being a black female director. And I really, I really, really, really love the label. I love that. Because I think the label is important. Because I know, like, there was a lot of stuff like women directors. And they're like, I just want to be a director. I totally get it. But for me, I'm like, I want to be a black female director who makes all these kinds of movies.

With thanks to Bayleys, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Celebrating Women's Writing, Sharing Our Creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. Hello, I'm Zawi Ashton and I'm your brand new presenter for season four of the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. The podcast that speaks to women with lives as inspiring as any good fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. My guest today is the award-winning screenwriter and filmmaker Nia da Costa. Her debut, feature film Little Woods, which she wrote and directed, won her the Nora Ephron Prize at the Tribeca Film Festival, and her spiritual sequel of the classic 90s horror film Candyman was released

earlier this year to critical acclaim, making Nia the first black female director to open top of the commercial box office on opening weekend. She's a self-confessed comic book nerd, and she's now been welcomed happily into the bosom of the Marvel universe. She's in the middle of shooting the Marvels, the follow-up to Captain Marvel when we speak. I'm deeply passionate about connecting with new filmmaking talent like Nia, whether there's a project in the works or not. And Nia and I first met over Zoom when our agents connected us right at the beginning of the pandemic. And we actually bonded over Jane Austen's Persuasion, a novel that makes it onto her list today.

We've kept in touch ever since. and she's an artist I'm just so proud to know. She's an order with an agenda and at only 32, she is already making huge waves and cracking open this notoriously tough industry. This is Nia de Costa. You are so many firsts. Oh my God.

You're a lot. You are the first black woman director to debut, a film at the top of the box office with Candyman earlier this year, end of the summer. I just want to sit with that for a moment. Have you had a second whilst you've been filming another huge darkenort, which is the follow-up to Captain Marvel, The Marvels?

Have you had a moment to sit with that thought and that fact and have you had a moment to sit with the fact and the thought that you are also the youngest and first black woman to direct a Marvel movie, full start. You know what's crazy? Like I finished Candyman, had two weeks off, and then I started the Marbles. And I have been just like in prep and shooting and not really, I guess. And part of me doesn't really even know what that means to like sit with or process. I think in part because like this is my third film in four years.

the marvels. So everything feels like it's just sort of happening really quickly. And I'm at a stage now where I'm sort of just like, okay, I need a second to stop and not have anything to do actually, which is so against my like hustler spirit. You have a hustler spirit? Yeah. I mean, I think that's just come from growing up like with no money.

Not no money. My mom would be so annoyed if I said that. But like, she's just like, bitch, please. But it's like not with a lot and wanting more. wanting a career that I need was hard and having a mother who's an artist, you know, my mom's a singer, and her being super real about like, listen,

you should totally pursue the arts, but you're going to be broke, and it's going to be hard. But she also always said, like, the money will come. So just do what you know you need to do. That's staying true to what you want to do and not like take things for money and blah, blah, blah. I was like, okay, mom.

And she was right. So, but I think now I need to chill the fuck out. That's so interesting to hear about your mom's influence. Because your mom is kind of a big, deal she was in a great band my mom was in a regular girl group called Worla Girl and so when I was growing up in the 90s like she was like touring

and doing stuff and you know they did the theme song for cool runnings back in the day the Jim Ekin and Bob sled chant she's really fascinating my mom she's had so many lives I feel like but like her passion is singing but she's so good at a lot of things as I think a lot of brilliant women are

and she's just out in these streets like doing the thing like I really watched her and learned a lot from her in terms of how tenacious she is and how she just goes for what she wants. She follows her passion. And so I've always felt I have the permission, the ability to do that. As someone who has a mother who has an immigrant story too, I know your mother hails from Jamaica and moved to New York when you were...

When she was 19. When she was 19. And so do you think that is also a component of someone's hustler spirit that actually that drive also comes from having to assimilate or. I think so. I think definitely there's such a common. Like I'm a first generation American, and I think there's such a commonality of the immigrant experience in America

and also in the UK of really needing to find your place. Like you came here for a reason, and you came here to do something. And I think there's an activation in you, I don't know. Yeah. And I think that really spreads to your children as well. and so I certainly you know my dad's also my dad is from here

and he went to America when he was 13 and of course that's like coming with his parents and a different energy but you know still there's this energy of like we're here to do something we're here to create a life we're here to do better make better and so I think I definitely feel that energy for my mom and I definitely kind of put that into my own way of pursuing my career and my interests

because something people might not know about you yet is you are an unbelievable anglophile. And I kind of hate that word in a way. I mean, you just really are very attuned to British culture in a way that I think we'll see as we move through your choices. There does seem to me to be a dual British and American identity to your art. Am I picking up on something that's me projecting? No, I think you're absolutely right.

And it's something I wouldn't have ever thought about in those terms, but I think it's definitely true. I think part of it is that, you know, being from a Jamaican family, it's like, I used to jokingly say, like, you know, my family was like peripherally British because, like, there's definitely this like sort of immigration story for people in the Caribbean, for Jamaicans in particular, being a former British colony.

I think there's that ever-present energy in my family. When I was younger, I definitely had, like, a much more diverse family than I really thought about. It's just interesting. I just took for granted, I guess, the, the Jamaicanness and the Britishness and the Americanness and to me it was just an experience. It was just life.

It wasn't really any thing I could like glean from either thing. When I look back on particular things, I'm like, my family really love tea. My mom gets really serious about what tea back she used. PG-Tips or Yorkshire Gold, you know what I mean? Like things are obviously so superficial, but it's really interesting. Or just like the ever presence of like Princess Diana.

Like my grandmother loved Princess Diana. But I think that's also consistent for like, like a lot of black aunties who live in. Princess Diana, I don't know why. Black auntie, thank you, Nia DeCosta, for being the first person I know to publicly make this tenuous in other people's minds. Connection. It's a whole vibe.

It's a whole thing. But it's something that I really am, again, completely took for granted. But then my grandmother, who had Princess Diana's, like, picture in her house. And when she died, I remember, like, the house went dark. Like, I remember it was just like, oh, my God. what happened. And I thought we knew her. Because when I was like seven or something when she passed and I was like,

did our friend die? Like, it was like, no, that's Princess Diana who we do not know. But I remember when Megan, Markle and Harry got married. And I was like, wow, I think my grandma would have been really into this whole thing, like this mixed-faced black woman and her

favorite royals favorite son. or not favorite somebody like the favorite son of her favorite royal marrying a mixed race black woman and having this black ass wedding you know like God that was a long way of saying I love that there is an Anglo

like influence to to my work the way I see the world the way I move through it I guess as well you have these incredible lineages and you also grew up in probably one of the richest communities in New York City which is Harlem

I'm wondering how literature or story played a part in your life and in your formative life with all of these rich influences that you had in your blood and in your household? I was a voracious reader when I was a kid. Was escapism for me. Loved, love, love, love reading. We'd read in a car if I didn't get car sick.

I would actually even try. Like I would always reading. And my mother also lover of the English language, voracious reader. so I'd always very precociously be like grabbing the adult books all the shelves in my house. Then I was when I was nine, my mom, she was finishing college, and so she got her English degree. And I would just like grab her books, grab her books. So like a couple of the books that like I mentioned today are like from things she was reading in college when I was like 11. I think it was hugely important for me in terms of my disdevelopment and also like my emotional escape from like, you know, divorced parents.

various and pleasantness that just happens in life, you know. So it was hugely important to me. You also were a border at high school. What was that like as well? Did that sort of intensify the veracity of your reading or of your studying? You're literally one of the smartest women I've ever met. And sometimes you are like an encyclopedia to me. Oh, that's so interesting.

That's very sweet of you. Very generous. Thank you. boring school was I mean I was always just like a fucking nerd like literally when I was younger I'd be like oh a science textbook you know like what's wrong with me

but boring school was a mix of like my parents got divorced and my mom was hugely like into education she knew how important that was for like and again it's like partially a Jamaican thing partially an immigrant thing it's like how do you transcend where society wants you to be as an immigrant as a person of color as a black

person. And my mother, for my mother, it was education, period. End of story. And so my education was amazing. And I, like, some of my favorite books I've read in school and talked about in school. And I loved not just reading a book, but also, like, peeling it back the layers and getting into it. Like, um, uh, as I lay dying by William Faulkner was, I read in eighth, ninth grade, I think, ninth grade. Wow. And I remember just being like, whoa, like books. You know, I was like, goodness, this is like, and I read a lot before then, but I was like, this is so stunning, you know, and I had these moments in my life where I'm like in school, reading a book and I'm like, oh, this is amazing.

Like, this is actually what I want to do is like be inside these stories in any way possible. Yeah, you have a lot of time when you're a kid. You don't really have to do anything. You know what I mean? No, but it's a great place to talk about your first book choice. Oh, bless. Which is Circle of Magic by Tamara Pierce. This is a quartet of fantasy novels

set in Emelon, a fictional realm, in a pseudo-medieval and Renaissance era, and it revolves around four young mages. Majes, yeah. Majes. Get it together, Zahue. Mages. Your circle of magic, right girl.

And they are their female sorcerers, but they learn to control their powers and put them to really interesting uses throughout the four books. I also read that Tamora had written these novels as an escape from her parents' divorce. Did you know that? I didn't know that, actually.

Tell me about your first encounter with these novels. I remember reading so that Tris' book is second of the four, and I remember reading that first because I don't know why. I did that with Harry Potter too. I read the third one first, and I was like, oh, there's a situation. There's like an order, you know. But with Circle of Magic, I just picked it up. Like this is one that like, I feel like now we live in a culture of like, what's the best version of the thing I want?

Like, what's the best book to read right now? What's the best new book? As opposed to just like, oh, here's a book on the shelf. Let me see what that's about. And I was younger, I was really about that. I was like, oh, I just want to, it's a book. So it must be worthwhile in some way. It's a story.

So it must have something to say. And so I just picked it up. I think it was at my friend's house maybe. And I read it. And escapism, it was just like, oh, I'm in this whole world. I love something with a lot of world building and specificity. And the book had that. And I love just, especially at the time when I read it, I think it was 11 or 12, like girls and magic.

And I always joke like every girl goes to like a weekend stage. It's so true. And I think it coincides with when we realize that we don't have as much control for our lives and our bodies and our destinies as we thought. Because the structure of the world like starts to become apparent. And it's sort of like a pushing against that. It's like, wait, no, no, no. And there's so many ways we as people try to get control of our lives or feel like we're in control from like astrology, you know, which is like a kind of magical thinking. Like wanting to be like, oh, you're this sign.

So I'm going to read this. So I know what's happening today. It's like the more out of control we feel, the more we like try to hold on to these things. And I think magic. I mean, it's so magical, isn't it? It's just like the idea that you can you can have that power, that control. And also that there's a community inside of that too, I think is very appealing, especially as a young girl. So when I read this, I was definitely in that space of like, oh my God, I wish I were magical.

I wish I could, you know, be a part of the circle of magic. I want to be friends with these people. And it was a really nice place to escape too. I love that connection that you've just made particularly and specifically about women and young girls and the relationship to magic or sorcery. And what you're saying is just reminded me of that time when I think we'd all just started to have sleep. we must have all just started to have our periods. And every single time we got together as a young female community, it was about trying to summon like the dead or like communicate.

Or light as a feather stiff as a board. Light as a feather stiff as a board. We're trying to like lift our friends with our two fingers and all screaming when actually, you know, oh my God, they rose like an inch off the ground. Nothing was happening. And that place of fantasy is so deeply. strong at that time. Yeah.

But I've never thought about it as a way of, I've always thought about it in my mind as being like a hysterical young girl. I've never framed it as being a way of me actually trying to gain some sort of sense of control over my experience. I think it's a bit of a rebellion in a way, in ways, like, because it's really, it's really scary being just a human in the world, being a child, and then, you know, learning what it means to be a girl, learning what it means to be a black girl.

You're like, whoa, input overload, you know? Because what you're hearing is like, you don't have control over all this stuff, all this history, all of this. And you're just like, I just got here, what? Can we slow down the train? And it's like, no. And so I think you find these ways to, like, escape,

which is, you know, reading Circle of Magic or to, like, find your control agency. I mean, you could not be, putting any more of this early reading to good use right now in your newest role as the director of the Marvel's, which is three incredibly powerful women doing what Marvel does best, which is harnessing their powers working together, creating change. You have one of the most diverse castes in the universe right now, and they are all women. Do you think there is a direct correlation here. I mean, you are a self-convests Marvel geek, but I can't help but tracking it back to

tomorrow. What is she done? I would say, like, I think another big theme in my life has definitely been, like, the family you choose. And so something about this is also very much the family you choose, like the Circle of Magic Books. And so, you know, the books that I love, these books about magic and everything, they're always about this group, these groups of people trying to do something amazing and needing each other to do it. So, yeah, I think. there is, I never thought about that, but yeah, I think there is definitely a connection. I'm so excited for you to not only be doing this all-female, all-representational piece of work in the Marvel universe, but also to be creating an aspirational genre with all of those layers.

Right, yeah, yeah. Because we weren't there and we haven't been in space. Oh my God, yeah, it's crazy. Absolutely crazy. I remember like, it would be. Black people on the moon. I know. You know what I mean?

It's really, or just like, I don't know. There's just really funny, like, onion, like, headline from, like, 15 years ago or something that I always think about. I think I saw it when I was in college, and it was, like, woman forgets she's a feminist so she can enjoy literally any television show. Like, you know what I mean? And that's how I feel a lot of the time, like, as a woman of color, I'm just, like, growing up, we had to just, like, shut down so much stuff just to, like, laugh at a movie or just to, like, have anything that. It's watchable. That's not triggering, you know. And I think now we're in a place where everyone's like, oh, shit,

like let's tell these stories, tell these stories. I think it's a very many-layered thing. Our presence as storytellers, our increased presence of storytellers in a very white industry. But there is something really fun and good and interesting and necessary about creating an aspirational space that's also really grounded in humanity. Because for me, like, the aspirational isn't necessarily what I think we'd, does happen sometimes where it's like, okay, black people rich and black people of this and, you know, or people of color are doing this or women just as strong as the men, you know.

It's more aspirational in the sense of like your full humanity is like going to be presented here. And that's what all we want from you. You know, like, as opposed to like you need to be this representation of X or this or this role model. But more so like, let's see what the future looks like. And it's not just going to be all white dudes with. phasers or, you know, like it's kind of be much more interesting. I think same thing with historical drama.

Like there's something very, even though so much of them are about like isolation and especially if they center women like around like sexism and whatnot, but they're always from a very specific point of view and they're always like so beautiful and like lush and the locations and the dress and all that stuff. So it's weirdly aspirational too in that way. Yeah.

So but like cracking into that something I'm really interested in because I love period dramas, but there's so many more layers to get out there that we just haven't seen. I honestly want to thank you, not only for what you've just said and how it's really kind of resonated for me, but, and I'm sure for our listeners, but for being at the forefront of creating art

that will allow my children not to have to shut off a part of themselves to enjoy. Right, yeah, yeah. I mean, thank you. And it's so interesting. It's so much of what I want. to do when I was getting into the industry was tell stories I loved and have fun

and work with great people and you know create a space like that where our kids could watch things that they're not like okay I'm turning off my like who I am to be able to just exist and it's so interesting we're doing that in this system because what you're asked to do so much at the time is to kind of slip into the same grooves

and I think you come across that in any respect like I definitely felt that especially with a movie like Candyman you know which is like about like black trauma and racial violence and really a space that I never really thought I would work in in that way. It's interesting. I'm really proud of the movie, and I'm really glad we told the story, and I'm really happy I have the opportunity to tell another version of a movie that I fucking love. But it is interesting, though, where we're asked to go as creatives of color.

And the Marvels has been really interesting because I haven't felt that really at all. Like, haven't felt like, oh, this is about women, so we have to make sure we do this. or there's a Pakistani American and a black American woman who are with this white woman. Like we have to figure out how to, it's always just been like, tell your story and let's honor who they are, but let's not tokenize them.

And that's been really important to me. We work in such a strange industry. I think we should talk about someone else who's pretty great at the old descriptions and the details and the putting together of the words. And that is your second bookshelfy choice, which is Mrs. Dalloway by Virginia. Your Wolf.

Yeah. It's just such an excellent novel. We are following, for anyone who hasn't read it, the details of the day in a life of Clarissa Dalloway, a fictional high society woman in post-First World War England. It is one of Wolf's best-known novels. The working title of Mrs. Dalloway was actually The Hours, and one of the probably most best-known iterations of this novel on film

is called The Hours, and it's directed by Stephen Doldry and stars Nicole Kidman as Virginia Woolf herself and Merrill Street and Julian Moore is two women affected by the novel. Talk to me about why you chose this. So Mrs. Stolle was one of the novels that I studied in high school and I was just really struck by two things. One, just the prose, just the craft. I was like, what? And I'm like parentheses, long sentences, whoa. Like, stream of consciousness.

What is happening? And then just the content, like watching these people trying to find their purpose and their happiness. And in this world that for all of them in different ways, man, woman, like, that's so claustrophobic. Like, they were clearly all trapped. Even the people that you would assume had had more power than the other. and I found that so fascinating and tragic and heartbreaking and the way she writes. And it's so interesting.

I didn't know that the original title, working title was The Hours. I didn't know that. But when you think about that, and you have the motif of the bell tolling throughout the book, I'm like, oh, that makes so much sense. It's actually even more melancholy.

Yeah. Oh my God, and my heart breaks again. It came out all those characters. But there was one bit of the novel that really stuck with me. One of the characters, his guy who's clearly who's really unhappy, I think he's the guy married to,

Clarissa, I think. Yeah. Clorce's husband who like knows that Clorster's like, nah, I'm not really into you. And he's walking around. And even though he got what he wanted, right? He married this woman he wanted to marry. Clearly he's not happy.

And then he ends up like kind of following this random woman that he sees. I think she's like a beautiful young woman. And the way he follows her is so not like, yeah, I'm trying to get that. But it was just sort of like a moment, this ephemeral moment. And he says, or he thinks to himself, happiness is this. Happiness is this, is this.

Blew my 16 or 17-year-old mind. I was like, whoa. It's so interesting. This book I read in The New Yorker was a go-to for anxious readers in the early days of the pandemic and lockdown. Because the famous opening of this novel, as you know, is Mrs. Dalloway said she would buy the flowers herself, right?

And the characteristic way throughout the novel that Clarissa Dalloway basically makes everyday shopping a really high-stakes adventure. Yeah, yeah. Was resonating highly with the lockdown reader. And of course, I was reminded as I was remembering the book and knowing we were going to talk about it today, that it's set in 1923, five years on, from the global influenza pandemic. And Clarissa Dalloway is a survivor. I also found out something about Virginia Woolf's life that makes so much sense of her writing now for me.

which is her mother died of heart failure brought on by influenza in 1895, another epidemic. And it was her mother's death that brought on one of the first nervous breakdowns that Virginia Woolf had, which I just feel like is always present in her writing.

This like this mental health, ill health. The fragility. The fragility, the betrayal of the body and the mind. And I mean, you're a New Yorker. You must sense sometimes that there is this wonderful busy metropolis around you, but actually sometimes just a sense of slight dread every day of something, imagined or real. I don't think I ever really engaged with that reality growing up. Like literally I grew up in the city and I love New York and it's amazing.

But it's also like an impossible city. I don't think it's normal. I don't think we should be living like that. Honestly. And I love a city. Like, but, and I love New York, it's, I think it's amazing, but I'm, I mean, I used to get, like, followed home by, like, men randomly, you know, every so often from when I was, like, 11, you know? And I grew this, like, shell where I wouldn't, like, look anyone in the eye because when

you're on the train and someone's a little crazy, you look at me in the eye, that's like, it's an invitation or, or just being a woman or a girl and, like, people being like, how old are you, are you 18 yet? You know, like, and so, you know, there are parts of me that, like, kind of grieve the the more open version of me, you know, that might have existed if I didn't live in a in a city like New York. I don't think I at all when I was in the midst of it feeling like any of that was weird or ridiculous. But I feel like people like Virginia Woolf who, you know, obviously struggling with mental health and obviously disposed to anxiety and depression. And I know like

having been in an anxious space before, which isn't my normal state. So I'm always just like, if that ever happens, I'm like, whoa, what's happening? You know? but you really are like vibrating on another frequency and like picking up on different things. And so her entire life is like picking up on actually how fucking insane the way we live is. Yes. And I think that's what is so interesting about this book

because it really cracks open like the quotidian unhappiness of like the way we've decided to organize our society. It's like she kind of illustrates this like inevitable unhappiness. Yes. Inside of how we've decided to organize our society. And in the book, the only escape the admirable escape in the book is suicide. Yeah.

Which obviously we all know Virginia Woolf eventually ended up ending her own life, which is horrible and sad, but it's an interesting sort of window into that experience. Yeah. But it being such an interesting window into this very specific woman's experience, it also is a window into our own experiences, the parts of us that are a little bit like each of those characters. Yeah. But I was 16 when I read this, I was like, whoa!

I would love to take that inevitable unhappiness. And the strength and fragility of another brilliant heroine and segue into what was going to be your fourth, but I'm going to move it up because we're in this conversation. Your third book shelfy choice, which is persuasion by Jane Austen. I think, you know, I mean, Virginia, Jane. There is a brilliant quote from this book, which is I am half agony, half hope.

And that feels like it covers all of these, all of the women we're talking about that we're interested in right now. This was, of course, the quietly radical last novel from Jane Austen. It was printed in 1817, which was six months after her death. We followed 27-year-old Anne Elliott. Austin's actually most adult heroine at 27 and unmarried. She is a Regency era spinster. Elizabeth Bennett was 25, right?

She was, yes, I think she was about 25, which is still quite senior. That's interesting, yeah. And as opposed to Elizabeth has a little bit more, again, of our favourite melanchole experience. Eight years before the story begins, she's happily betrothed to a naval officer Frederick Wentworth, but breaks off the engagement when persuaded by her friend Lady Russell that the match is unworthy. All the tension of the novel revolves around one question. will Anne and Wentworth be reunited in their thwarted love. Oh my God, I love it.

Why has this book made it to your list? Well, I love a rom-com. I genuinely love romantic comedies. Me too. I think I came into like rom-com love through Jane Austen, which is very strange. Like, again, so my mother was reading Pride and Prejudice in college, and that was one of the books. I was like, okay, I'll pick it up, we'll check it out, see what's going on here. and I was like, oh, this will they, they won't they?

All of her books have this, like, romantic sort of will they won't they thing, but this one in particular is this sort of like, you watched Anne Elliott being put in this box the whole book, and her family does not respect her. Her sister is the worst. Her dad is oblivious. And she's sort of just like shit on. Yeah.

And she's underappreciated, and people really discount her. Even Lady Russell, who is a friend, just like sort of sees her as a pet in some ways you can read, you know? Even though clearly she loves her, but it's just very, like, condescending. And you really want her to be happy so much, you know, like, when you read Elizabeth Bennett, you're like, oh, you are that bitch. You know what I mean? You got this. You're good. You'll be fine. You'll be fine. It doesn't work out with him. You'll be good.

But you're right. With those two, you think, you'll be okay. You'll be fine. With Anne, we're just not sure. And dear God. She's shrouded. Yeah. And that captain seems like a real haughty too. He really does.

I'm like, girl, you better lock it down. Write as fast as you can. Quickly. Get the quill, get the ink, get the ink, and that shit you put on the paper so the ink dries or whatever the fuck. Get it done. Get it.

Get the rubble style. Exactly. Get the message. I also love in the novel how like she basically like sees him write the letter but doesn't know that he's writing the letter to her. It's hot break. It's like, he's like, furiously writing, do you love me?

Oh my God. It's like, bitch, of course she does. Like, get it together. It's like, you're rich now, motherfucker. That part of it actually, again, is why I feel like the book is quietly radical. Because it's him that has to kind of become worthy of her. And of course, he's always worthy, even with no money, no status. It's a slight reverse way of telling these, as you say,

these like ancient rom-coms. Yeah, yeah. It's great. I wonder when stories for you then turned into pictures. You clearly inhaled stories in your formative years. And when did that become actually I want to structure images to tell the stories I want to tell? I think the earliest time I can remember understanding that film was like an art medium, as opposed to just an entertainment medium, was when I was 11, I think.

And I was watching a couple of movies, all of which I should not have been watching because of my age. American Beauty. I had the VHS in my house. I was going to say, we are the VHS generation. And so if we had a chair, we could watch it because we could reach the top shelf. We didn't need the pass codes. Yeah, we didn't need to get the parental lock or whatever the fuck that is. You know what I mean?

But also because it's VHS, like if you had it in your house, you just watched it over and over again. Yeah. And I watched that movie so many times. had no idea what was going on but I was so drawn into like the imagery and the direction and the acting and I didn't know exactly what it was like oh acting I get that

that is talented acting that's good and at Benning stunning you know like I get that and also full metal jacket was another one and so in the summers I'd just be home like looping away watching VHSs and

HBO and I think that's when I was like Oh shit. And then by the time I got to like 16, I was like really into the idea of like, oh, I want to direct movies. I thought I wanted to be an actor at first because that's what I understood first. And like the other ones I see, you know. And even like into like my early 20s, I was like, oh, is that cute? And then I was like, that's not cute for me. I mustn't do this. Well, it's important to say you are a writer-director. You have been involved at script level on all three of your films. And it's a really important distinction to make, I think, because you are a sense. essentially living and breathing every element of that story coming to the life.

You're the reason why it's happening as the writer. And then you're the person to sort of take it to its absolute zenith. Yeah. It's crazy. It is a bit crazy. You're just with something for so long, especially when you, like, as the own, like my first film, the only writer and director, it's like on this movie, The Marvels and on Candyman, like there was a script before I got involved.

But you really are just like page to screen. to edit to like, you know, it's like, whoo, it's really a journey. Do you get attracted to novels in the same way that you get attracted to films? I think I like the same kinds of books and movies. I just want a good story and I want good, to learn about people.

And I think in that sense, I do approach them the same. And I'm in the same way, like, when I want, like, escapeism, like, really easy something, I'll pick up a rom-com novel or I watch a rom-com. Like, last night I spent 45 minutes trying to find a rom-com I, like, haven't seen that I was interested in. Love that. Did you find it? Yeah. So I was like, you know what I should do? Not English. So I said French rom-coms.

And there are a couple of really good ones that I'm, like, looking forward to watching tonight. Amazing. I have read you oftentimes say in interviews, you know, that you just want to make great story. And whatever way that happens is whatever way it happens. But you are definitely interested in the in-between spaces. of society and the unconventionality of our existence. I would say that's reflected in your book choices today.

No, actually, I would say that's absolutely true. And I mean, even just like growing up as like a black girl who went to predominantly white schools but lived in a predominantly black neighborhood, there's sort of in-betweeniness to that as well. Maybe not in-between is my word, but because it kind of suggests it's like buying

that I don't really think exists between black and white, even though that's how we kind of approach that. There's like an interesting sort of searching, I think, this searching for your place thing that happens in that respect. But also, I think in a lot of the stories of the books that we are bringing out, like a circle of magic, it's like these kids are like figuring out who the fuck they are in a world that they don't really understand and with this power, this force within them that they're trying to control.

and Mrs. Doleway, the guy who has PTSD, like, clearly he's, like, in a way on the fringes, you know. But then you have this various, this woman, Clarissa and Peter, and they're very much, like, of society. Yeah. But they're clearly just, like, spiritually not. They're, like, in their own fringe. Yeah. And I always found that really interesting. And I'm really interested in people who are ignored, or the experiences, the ignored experiences of people that we think we know.

Or, like, they ignored parts of history. And usually for me, it's like women and people of color not existing in before 1992. We came in with Will Smith. I know, literally. They're like, oh, Will Smith was the first black. You know what I mean? Especially in England. I'm like, you guys are delusional.

They're like, well, we got the wind rush. And that's when all the white people got here. And I'm like, ma'am. Ma'am. Sir. Please. Let me just get my Google mouse out. Yeah.

I'm like. Many museums. It's so crazy. I'm like, it's so interesting. There's been like a consistent and strong. I'm going to talk specifically about black people because that's where we are right now. But a specific and strong black presence in this country for hundreds of years. Yeah.

Hundreds. And it's like, let's all get it together. Yeah. The podcast is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish Queen. Bayleys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women. celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bailey's is the perfect adult treat, whether in coffee, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Enjoying the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, share the literary love and be a part of the future of the Women's Prize Trust by supporting our charitable programs for writers and readers.

Donations of all sizes help us to continue empowering women regardless of their age, race, nationality or background to raise their voice and own their story. Search for Support the Women's Prize to find out more. I think this brings us on to your fourth bookshelfy, which is The Breadgivers by Aunga Uzerska. This is such an incredibly fascinating novel. I have not read this novel, but for anyone who hasn't read it too, I'll just summarize, It's a 1925, three-volume novel by Jewish-American author Anziya Yuzerska.

It's the story of a young girl growing up in an immigrant Jewish household in the Lower East Side of New York City. Her parents are from Poland. This is a semi-autobiographical work. Anzia and her own family emigrated from Poland to the US and settled on the Lower East Side. It's an incredible insight into the meaning of liberation for immigrants. and particularly Jewish immigrant women. What did you particularly love about this book? So this is another book that my mother was reading in college.

Your mom needs to come on the podcast. What is your mother's name? Charmaine. Charmaine. Yeah. Come to book Shelby anytime. And also, like, why aren't there awards for people like your mom, you know? Yeah.

Can we just have one year where the Oscars are actually just given to people like your mom? Yes, I would love that. I would love that, too. I think they should. I had a very rich bookshelf growing up. I never really started buying books until I moved out of my mom's house, you know, because I just always had access to the best, at least when I had access to, was great. But this was a book that I just picked up one day, and I was like, oh, mom, what's this?

She's like, oh, it's a book I read last semester. And I was like, oh, cool. Started reading it and immediately drawn into this story of this girl who's just suffocated by her father. And every, she's three older sisters and her mother at the beginning. of the novel is still alive. And the tyranny of this patriarch is so, it's terrible. And for me, what really, like, fucked me up was, like, you watch this whole story. So her older sisters get married for, or want to get married for love. They fall in love. Her dad's like, fuck that. You're going to marry these people who are going to make sure that I can have money. So they're all unhappy in

their marriages. She is like, I refuse. Eventually frees herself from her father, finds that falls in for the guy who happens to also be Jewish. It's super cute. They're like, oh, our families are kind of from the same place. It's so profound and I think tells a really interesting story about patriarchy and fathers and their kids. And also what I thought was really beautiful, like her portrayal of like turn of the century in New York and Lower East Side, that immigrant community. And there's a part of the novel where she has to sell fish because of her dad being a delinquent. And it was like, again, a part of a part of New York history that I wasn't familiar with until I read the book. And I was like, oh, this is fascinating.

And just broke my heart that novel. Oh, my God. And it always really left a impact on me. It was something I was like, oh, should I make this into a movie. You absolutely should make it into a movie. But it's a really great story. And I think an underrated novel as well. I wonder if there's something about this story of like liberating yourself.

from the past as the generation that I'm supposed to take things on forward that resonates for you because even reading about this book it resonated for me. We've talked a couple of times on this show about how refreshing it is that we're finally having conversations about inherited trauma and epigenetics and actually sometimes the boundaries because we're using this word now right, boundaries even when it comes to family members, which is again mind blowing to me that sometimes. the boundaries you need to put down to protect yourself in the present day. Unfortunately, do involve cutting off elements of your past or your family line that are

not going to serve the present. A hundred percent. Does something resonate with you in that space? Oh, for sure. Oh, goodness. Yeah. Absolutely. I think I find it really interesting now.

The conversations about boundaries, especially as it relates to your family. because I have friends who have family members, parents who are just so toxic. And it's like the hardest thing in the world for them, obviously, to just say actually no. Or I watch them sort of try to find like an in-between. And it's really fascinating, this generational difference between like ourselves and our parents' generation and how we each deal with trauma in the past. and with each other and the expectations we have of each other as a parent and child and where those lines get crossed. And now that everyone's adults, it's like, you know, it's very interesting.

And like I've had my own reckoning with that too, with my upbringing. And again, why I love my mother so much that I've been like, mom, like, I felt, this is how I felt about this and the things that have happened and who it's made me. And she's like the most wonderful receptive, like, cool, let's talk more about it. And it's been like the most wonderful thing because again, I have friends who like have attempted that. And it's just been like shut down, shut down, shut down, shut down, shut down. And I think especially with this like character in this novel, it's like sometimes you just have to like say goodbye. Yeah. But as evidence in this novel, sometimes if you do, it's not always a goodbye.

It's not always a like she's kind of trapped by this man. Yeah. End of the novel. She's literally freed herself. She's like, found this person she loves. She's married. like has her own job, she's doing something she enjoys, and then it's like, also her entire life has dealt with dealing with him. Even when she's like, I'm not going to deal with it.

It's like people saying, you should do this, you should do this, you should do that. Like, it's just, oh my God, it's, it's really modern in that way. Or even not modern, it's just maybe perennial. That experience is perennial. Absolutely. And actually doesn't feel like it falls far from the tree of Austin, actually. I'm so interested to read this book and delve into this. intergenerational immigrant experience and the complexity that I know come with that and you know as well too I have to move on I don't want to but I have to to your fifth and final book choice this week which is another intergenerational immigrant story hello we're blending we're moving we're

flowing it is white teeth by zadie smith the novel published in the year 2000 by the British author Zadie Smith focuses on the later lives of two wartime friends, the Bangladeshi Samad Iqbal and the Englishman, Archie Jones, and their families in London and all of the intergenerational characters that come from this friendship. Zadie went on to win the women's prize for her following novel on beauty. And she's a beacon for me. I'm not fast with her. We're obsessed with Zadie.

How has this book fallen into your hands And what effect did it have on you? Really quickly, I just talk about being obsessed with Lady Smith. I bumped into her in a flower shop like five years ago or something And I was like, oh my God, that's Eddie Smith. Like, I was like, oh, go say hi.

I was like, I'm not going to say hi. Like freaking out. And I don't think I said hi. But I think she's an absolute genius. I fucking love her. Also, not the point, but stunning woman. Stunning woman. Unnecessary.

We don't need all of that. But we also kind of do. June Sarpong, who is a guest, also pick this book. And I love it when a book comes up more than once because the books that are going to last forever and have this strong legacy just will. And we had to take a moment for the iconography of Sadie. Yeah. It helped us. It helped me to see pictures of her in association with her work when she was exploding onto the scene.

Because I personally had not had a young British author who looked like me. Also, both names were given as Z. What do you know? Hello. I just hadn't had that. And that iconography was very, very important. Yeah. I don't know how I got this book.

I really don't. I think I read it when I was in Prague or I finished it when I was in Prague when I was 19, studying abroad, like doing film ship. And one of the main characters is a Jamaican woman named Clara, her daughter is first-gen British. like her dad is doing too much, Archie. And then, you know, and then McGid and Milad and like, I'm like, I just like, oh, I just loved it so much. And this experience of being an immigrant and having kids in this new country and figuring out who you are and who they should be and them figuring out who they are. And like the twins story, McGidim a lot, like how they branched off. And also there's something so interesting.

about like places that have been colonized and the way they have to split up the family and the children in order to survive that I think is like a legacy of like slavery and imposed classism from whoever's colonizing you and it's awful and it's still happening.

But like that happened certainly happened to my family. People separating like even my mom going to America when she's 19 or my dad who's of Jamaican descent like being born and raised in England like it's all kind of like it's a lot. But this book to me me it was really interesting because of the scope. The scope is so huge, but it's also so intimate.

And those things are true of that experience. It's one quote that I always think about. And I remember going to my friend and reading it to him and I'm like, what do you think this means? Because he'd read the book. And I was like, this part, like, what does it mean exactly? Like, let's talk about it. And we both were like, ugh.

But it's right after Arii sleeps with McGid. and he says it's like it seems to me he said as the moon became clearer than the sun that you've tried to love a man as if he were an island and you were shipwrecked on it and you can mark the land with an ex with an ex it seems to me it's too late in the day for all of that and i was like sadie and you have not read that from a piece of paper ladies and gentlemen me and de costa has imprinted that quote on all it's like inside of my eyelids yeah It's so resonant. It's so wonderful to have this opportunity, I realize, to talk to artists like you

about the women you feel uplifted by. And that's what this book does so, so well. And that's what Zadie does so well. Yeah, 100%. She's like, I know some of you are seeing a wall. There are bricks within the wall. And the way that she writes the experience of young British people, young British people of color, people from London,

the diasporic communities is so specific. And I think that's why it's hard to read sometimes. Because you haven't been caught out by too many authors in that way. 100%. Yeah. I think that's so true. Oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, there's not been enough opportunity to really get into uncomfortable spaces

with Black lives in terms of different kinds of stories. because all storytelling, basically, especially if you live in the States or here in the UK, it's like through a white lens. It's like even if you have a black writer-director, the studio head is white or the execs are white or whatever. And that's like neither here nor there. I mean, it's everywhere, but in this instance, neither here nor there. But I think it's hard because there's this desire to correct for the wrongs that have been done to us. The way we've been portrayed, the way we've been seen, the ugliness with which we've been put into stories. that don't serve us but are quote about us

and sometimes I think that overcorrection or not even over correction that correction can't be the only thing that exists and so it's always really striking when I read something like on duty or luster or white teeth or the bluest eye

that isn't simple and isn't sort of like specifically like look at how great we are, you know, that I think it's really like nice actually, I'm reassuring and I'm like, oh,

humanity, yes. Yeah, you know. Exactly. We can write about the symptoms and not the cure all the time, like you're saying. You don't necessarily have to read and write or direct or act through this pressure of correcting writing wrongs. You can just be in the space that you're in. Exactly.

And as Tony Morrison always said, make the personal universal. Mm-hmm. Yeah. She was great. She's the one who said, like, racism is a distraction. From your work. From your work, bitch. She was like, she's like, and I feel like that is so true because it also is in a way, like, it pushes you into like this thing where you have to consider so much more than just the story you're trying to tell.

Like, you have to consider so much more than just the black people you're telling the story for, you know? Yeah. Or. because at the same time while I'm like oh I love this like gritty crazy shit I'm like I want to see like a really nice promcom like black people in it or people of color or just like you know

it's like I want to see like Stephen Young and Tessa Thompson like making out in a movie I know full stop I know full stop that's just a personal even mine this is a personal thing for all of us you know what I mean it's like I want to see like I want to see the version of that that is like just the life that we know as people in the circles we run

and live in life in whatever city. Like I also want to see like aspirational views of black people and people of color, but I don't want that to be the only thing that we now are allowed to do, allowed being like the operative word, because I feel like there is sort of like a, I think they'd call it the trend, but I think when you're a person of color, the trend is kind of can be limiting to like what they are allowing you to put into the world. Precisely, Nea.

Yeah. And do you want to be just a direct. rather than a black female director. Is there something in the experience of sometimes having to be like a spokesperson or a pundit and do the work that you find invigorating or exhausting? Oh, I love being a black female director. And I really, I love that. I really, really, really love the label. Love that.

Because I think the label is important. And I think, because I know, like, there was a lot of stuff like women directors and they're like, I just want to be a director. And I'm like, that's super cute, but that's never going to happen. Like, never, never. And I think it's so lovely. But I respect, I respect the, like, I know what they're saying. I know, like, women who say that and directors of color who say that.

I just want to be a director. I totally get it. But for me, I'm like, I want to be a black female director who makes all these kinds of movies. Yeah. Not just a director who happened to wander into wherever and direct a movie with no context. And, you know, which is a very new crit way of looking at it. and again, it's fine, but for me, I find it most enriching to be like,

black female director who is doing X, Y, Z. I think it's important that they go together. Yeah. Not in terms of necessarily in terms of like, that's how you're going to help you read the work because I don't think that is always helpful. But just that like if you're on the wiki page and you're, you know, just wondering who made what.

Well, absolutely. I think it's nice. Yeah. Well, to bring it back to this choice. of Zadie as an author, her on the inside of the book, made me buy that book. And you on the DVD? No. The back of the DVD is smiling.

Smelling? What age of I have like a thousand? Me on the... But like your face and the art together is as important for me. and I'm so glad to hear you say that it's important to you too because I think it's extremely necessary to ask those questions, you know, because sometimes we're in positions where we're being interviewed and the questions are just about our experience of our gender and our race.

And it's like, you guys, we've just asked me about the work for a say. It's not up to me to change the world. It's the gatekeepers. But I'm so happy that you're happy to be an icon in that way too. Oh, well, I don't know if I only need to be an icon, But I know what you mean. I know, but I totally feel what you mean because I think, I remember Barry Jenkins talking about Moonlight. And he was like, listen, I'm so glad that, like, people love this movie and talking about this movie.

But I would have loved people who ask me more about the craft of making the movie. And that movie is beautiful and has craft. And as opposed to just being like, you're black. Yeah. Your mom was addicted to crack. Like, you know, gay men. Yeah. Gay black men.

You know, like he. And I was like, yeah, man. Like, we're not just here to serve. an external media sort of fed need to be in conversation with things that are outside of just the work, I guess. And it would be nice to also talk about, why did you choose that color? Tell me about your lensing. How do you choose glass?

What was your collaboration like with James Lax? You know what I mean? And I totally felt that when he said that because he's someone I think who was very proud to be like a black director and to tell black. stories like clearly from his work you can see that but he's also like yo I'm an artist and talk to me like an artist as well so anyway I could sit with you all yeah I to wrap will have to ask you the very difficult question that I ask everyone which is to choose one book from the list to take with you into your groundbreaking future oh my gosh which one would it be in

my would we had Circle of Magic Definitely not Mrs. Dalloway. I don't have time for that stress all the time. It'd be somewhere between persuasion and white teeth. I think persuasion because it has a happy ending. I guess in a way you can say white teeth does too, but persuasion is very like, very cute. I love persuasion for you. I do.

I will happily give you that book and take the rest away in my knapsack. Thank you so much, Nia, for joining us. You are so busy and your time is so precious. and the work that you're doing is genuinely needle-moving and to distract you even for an hour and a half from your very important work is a real privilege. And thank you so much for being so open and honest about yourself as an artist and your experiences

and the reading that has helped inspire you along the way. I really, really hope that everything that can and should and will happen for you happens. Thank you so much, Zowie. Thank you for having me. This has been wonderful to be here, and I feel really honored to be talking to you about books and art and all this stuff. This has been really, really fun.

So thank you. I'm Zawi Ashton, and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Please rate and review this podcast. It's the easiest way to help spread the word about the female talent you've heard about today. Thank you so much for listening. Hope to see you next time. You've been listening to the Women's, Prize for Fiction podcast brought to you by Bayleys and produced by birdline media