Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S4 Ep8: Bookshelfie: Bim Adewunmi

Episode Date: December 16, 2021

Journalist and writer Bim Adewunmi talks about why female desire needs to be brought out of the shadows and explains why women’s fiction is about more than pastel coloured covers and 3 for 2 tables at bookshops.   Bim is a producer at the infamous storytelling podcast This American Life but was thrust in to the spotlight through her own show, Thirst Aid Kit - a musing on female desire and lust - which she co-hosted with writer Nichole Perkins from 2017 to 2020. She’s a former Guardian columnist and Buzzfeed editor, and she’s written for Vogue, the New Statesman , Independent and Monocle magazine and various others, covering everything from popular culture to feminism and race. She’s an expert on crafting great storytelling, including as a gifted playwright. Her debut play, Hoard, a comedy about a Nigerian-British family in east London, premiered at the Arcola Theatre in May 2019.     Bim’s book choices are: ** I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou ** Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen ** The Girls’ Guide to Hunting and Fishing by Melissa Bank  ** Station Eleven by Emily St. John Mandel ** Circe by Madeleine Miller   Zawe Ashton, acclaimed actress, director, playwright and author, hosts Season Four of the chart-topping Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. The new Women’s Prize Podcast season continues to celebrate the best fiction written by women, by interviewing inspirational women about the books that have most influenced their life and career.   Make sure you listen and subscribe now, you definitely don’t want to miss the rest of Season Four.   This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Ladies and gentlemen. Pinocchio, now streaming exclusively on Disney Plus. Sounds like my kind of place. Director Robert Zemeckis delivers a dream come true for the whole family. I want to be real. And Tom Hanks shines as Geppetto. It's going to be quite an adventure. Let nothing stop you.

Johnny! From experiencing the next Disney classic. And to be real is up to you. It's in your heart. Disney's Pinocchio only on Disney Plus. Now streaming. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply.

We are both sitting with divas over our heads. Yes, we are. I internally often feel like a woman sitting inside a wardrobe with cushions around myself, feeling deeply inadequate and vulnerable, and yet trying to present something very, very polished and artistic to the outside world. 100%. The internal becomes the external. This is a therapy session. Welcome, Zowie. Let's talk about this.

Welcome, Bim. My rates for you will be startlingly low if not free. That's good. I operate on a sliding scale myself, so this is good. With thanks to Bayle's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. Hello, I'm Zawi Ashton and I'm your brand new presenter for season four of the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. The podcast that speaks to women with lives as inspiring as any good fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. My guest today is Bim Adam Wamy.

Bim is a writer and journalist and producer of the infamous storytelling podcast, This American Life, but was thrust into the spotlight by her own show and podcast Thirst Aid Kit, amusing on female desire and lust, which she co-hosted with writer Nicole Perkins from 2017 to 2020, so her voice may well already be familiar to you. She is a former Guardian columnist and BuzzFeed editor. She has written for everyone from Vogue to the New Statesman, the Independent. She is one of those people who manages to cover everyone,

everything from popular culture to feminism and race with the most glorious humor and insight. She really is an expert on crafting great storytelling. She's also now a gifted and produced playwright, her debut play, Hoard, a comedy about Nigerian British family in East London, premiered at the Arcola Theatre in 2019. She is currently based in New York, but I managed to catch up with her during a trip to England to discuss her five bookshelfy choices. This is Bim Adawami. Bim, it's so wonderful to welcome you to bookshelfy.

We've known each other on an offer for a while. A long while. A long while. And I was tracing it back. And I have to tell you that you interviewing me in 2013 for the Guide magazine, throwback. RIP, the Guy. Guide, R-I-V-E weekend.

The deep nostalgia is disturbing. We were working at The Guardian. When you interviewed me for The Guide, you were the first black journalist I'd ever sat down with. And I had had a very long career up until that point. Otherwise, you know, he cares if it's the first one you've sat down ever in your life. And they also happened to be black. But in a long line of journalists, you were the first black. black woman that I'd spoken to. And I have to tell you that speaking to you that day and reading

the resulting article, it completely updated and changed the way that I spoke to the press and how I tapped into my authentic self in interviews full stop. So I want to thank you for that. That's a very big thing to say. So thank you for telling me that. I remember being asked to do it. And it was such a der question. I was like, yes, 100% I will do it. And I just thought, great. Like, I'm such a fan of her. And I want to see, I want to talk to her about her career. So when they asked, like, hey, do you want interviews now? I was like, yes, 100%. Stop asking silly questions. Let's go. What's the day? What's the time? And I was thrilled to talk to you. It really meant a lot to me as well, because I was so aware that it was going to be a cover interview. And I think that was one of my first covers as well. So it felt really great that you were going to be the subject. And I was going to be the profiler or the interviewer. And then it was going to be a cover thing. And it was going to be right there. And I remember, I still remember the cover. You're wearing that Dair t-shirt. It's a black t-shirt and your hair is super short. And I just, I remember thinking, oh, that's a great cover. And you just look like such a rock star on the cover of it. And, you know, my, obviously, my byline is

nowhere on the front. But I was like, I did that. That was me. I did that. And I felt really good about it. I love hearing you say that it was kind of a match, an interesting match from your side as well and also something relatively new because, I mean, cultural tipping point. Hello. Right. Where are we now? You are a completely embedded writer for me in the zeitgeist, in the cultural zeitgeist. You're not only a journalist anymore.

Your debut play Horde premiered at the Arcola Theatre in 2019. You're producing the brilliant podcast, This American Life, and the equally brilliant, may I say, hello, the first. Thank you. Thank you. Thursday kit conversation. Listen. The first time I ever heard the word first in regards to Oh, I'm so glad.

I'm so glad. I, listen, we've obviously, we're on hiatus and Thursdays kit, but I miss it every day. And almost every day somebody online loves it and loves us. And I always think to myself, oh, thank you for saying that because it's such a weirdly large part of my life, even though I don't do it every week anymore. It really found its audience.

And I'm so thrilled when people say stuff like you just said. Like, oh, that was the first time I heard Thirst. And I was like, oh, yeah, that was a heady time on the internet where we got to kind of explore stuff. So thank you for mentioning Thursday A-Kid. God bless that ship and all who sailed in her. Before we move on to books, do you feel like you are experiencing a cultural tipping point

from your point of view? I think so. I think in both good and bad ways, I think there's been a sort of a widening of the door. It always felt like it was only slightly ajar, I think. and it was incredibly it was incredibly rigid who got through and who got to do stuff

and I was always very aware that you know having a platform like The Guardian meant I would have more access it wasn't just me obviously there were lots of young black writers who were kind of like oh yeah we can do more we can try more and there were some editors who were like yeah we should definitely do more

there were people who weren't just paying lip service to the idea of a diversity of stars and writers and possibilities you know like the door kind of opens wider and wider. The important thing is to not let up and to kind of keep pushing. It's quite astonishingly quick how fast the doors can slam shut. So you have to keep the pressure up and you have to keep making the noise and you have to keep trying to get people into the rooms that they should be in. You know, this idea of the voiceless is not real. It's not true. Everyone has a voice.

It's just a matter of who gets shut up and who gets kind of like given the loudspeaker. And I will say that it feels as though more people have been given the loudspeaker, but on the same way there are other people who are trying very actively to make sure the loudspeaker gets taken away. And in fact that, you know, we go back to being silenced. So it's a lot. It's a lot of things happening all at the same time. Goodness. Well, I'm really, really glad that you had a hold of a loudspeaker at the time where our paths crossed. And you are a wonderful writer. And I'm so glad we have a journalist this season because you are filling that space for us, which I think is so important, could create so many wonderful insights.

especially when we're talking about narrative and story. So my first question is, what role have books played in your life? You're such a brilliant writer and such a brilliant speaker. Where has reading come into that? Well, first of all, thank you very much for saying that. One of the things that you never get tired of is someone's going to go very good at that. I'm like, thank you. Thank you so much, as I simper.

It's very nice. Very kind of you to say, thank you. I think that books are the fundamental backbone of my life, really. I started reading when I was very young. I mean, everyone always says that. I was so precocious. I wasn't like I was reading when I was two. But I, we, we didn't grow up in a house full of books, but we always had access to books. We were big library goers. I still, I'm a huge champion of libraries still. I think they widen the world for everybody and very, very much so for people who don't have a lot of money and don't have access to vast sort of like,

old libraries where they can kind of peruse the classics or whatever. I'm very grateful. The old Stratford Library on Water Lane, E-15, listen, that library is the reason I'm a writer. You know, it's different now. Now it's on the Broadway and it's all steel and glass. I was in the old smelly one, the one that had like a leak in the roof. And I would spend... You love an honorable mention for an old library. This is what this podcast is about. The building is now part of the University of East London. And I'm like, cool, cool, cool, young people. but like when I was growing up, this library was everything to me. God bless you of libraries.

They really did their job. But I was in that library most weekends. Like, you know, on the Saturdays, go to market with my mom and my sister. And then having to finish my chores, I was in the library until it closed of a weekend. Like just sitting on the floor and reading everything and anything, anything at all. Like I was able to pick up books that were way above my reading level and some that were way beneath. and just able to sort of like really just swallow books. And it meant that I had like all these weird references and I knew stuff that maybe I shouldn't have known or didn't fully understand.

But I had access to it and it made such a difference for me to have the access and to be able to sit there unbothered. Even now, every time I sit down and pick up a book and just sit in my apartment and read my book, I'm like, oh yeah. Shout out to the Stratford years where I just sat in the library and sat there until they were like, all right, it's time to go. come on. So books are incredibly important. Another thing when we were, because we lived in Nigeria briefly as well, well not that briefly, for a number of years. And one of the things my parents did, my dad in particular, was to give us a separate allowance that was just book money. And we couldn't spend it on anything except books. And that was any kind of book. If it was written material, it was okay. So you could buy comics with it. You could buy audio books with it if you wanted.

You could even buy magazines, although that was not so much a thing that my dad wanted us to buy. I basically bought a book a week, go down to the bookshop, select something. And it's such a good idea because it meant that, you know, you have your regular pocket money and then you have book money. Wow. What's your dad's name? Well, my dad's name is Ademola. We have to shout out Ademola right now because I think this is definitely a system that needs to be adopted by more people. And my dad was, he was very clear about it. He was just kind of like, well, you know, books can be your friends.

You just have to kind of think of them that way. They'll enrich your life in another way, which on the one hand, kind of cliche and kind of like, all right, Dad, we've got it, thanks. But on the other, a very, very specific truth, which is that I have found a lot of comfort and a feeling of kinship in books, which is not dissimilar to having a friend. So he was right, he was right. I think this is a great moment to move on to your first choice, actually, because the first choice that you've made is such a formative book for so many people and has actually been

chosen earlier in the series, a couple of times and does seem to be a manual or a friend to so many. And that first choice is I know why the cagebird sings by Dr. Maya Angelou. To summarize again for those who haven't read it, this is the first volume of seven books of autobiography by Dr. Maya Angelou, where she invokes her childhood with her grandmother in the American South of the 1930s. She faces discrimination, violence and extreme poverty. but there is also hope, joy, achievement and celebration in this book.

It is a coming-of-age story that illustrates just how much your strength of character and a love of reading and literature can help you overcome even the most traumatic circumstances. It is considered one of the greatest books of the 20th century and probably one of the most quotable books of all time. Yes. It's really interesting that this book comes up again and again. I think it's for lots of different reasons. Why have you chosen it today, Ben?

Well, in talking about all the time I spent at Stratford Library on Water Lane, one of the books that I read, I read it so closely. It felt like a very intimate book to me. I think I read it when I was 15 or 16. And I read it with my sister, who's a few years older than me. And we read all seven of Dr. Angelou's autobiographies. but this one is the one that we kind of were reading together. And I just remember our eyes being so big, like, oh my God, this is such a, this is such a book.

Like, it's, it's, it's, it was unlike anything we've ever read up until that point. Like, I, like, I don't remember us sitting and talking about a book so much in the way that we sat and talked about this book. Like I said, I was a, kind of like in my mid-teens when I read it. and what I loved about it immediately was just the ease of Dr. Angelou. Like in the book, like Marguerite is just this girl who you just, you liked her. There was just something about her so quickly that you just kind of glommed onto and you thought, oh, I'm going to spend a lot of time with her and I'm going to love it. And that's basically how it felt.

Like I know it's a coming of age book and I guess I didn't really think of myself was coming of age, even though I clearly was at that time. But there was something about the book that really kind of resonated deep in me. And it's only with hindsight that I think, oh, that's because we're both girls growing up. But it felt like it was such a different part of the world. I didn't know that much about the South or about America. I knew about Dr. King having a dream, and I knew about Malcolm X, you know, by any means necessary, etc. But I didn't know any of that stuff, not in a deep way. And, and, over the course of the seven books, you get to kind of see a real, an image, a portrait of America

at a very specific time. But in this first book, all I saw was a girl who was going through it and was sort of like coming to the other side of what she was going through. And the thing that I really kind of glom, I didn't expect to kind of find in this was just an incredible ribbon of humor all the way through. Like I was laughing so much in this book and just kind of like chuckling, literally, like out loud, just like, oh my God, this is so funny. This is so funny. And then, you know, she slapped you in the face with something harrowing. He'd be like, oh, it's not funny. It's not funny at all. And then two pages later you were cracking up again. Like, oh my God, she's so funny. So it just, it warms you up from the inside out. And so by the time

you're done with the book, you just think, oh, God, I wish I was there. I wish I knew her. I wish we'd grown up together. I wish we'd come of age together. And what were you like as a time of Bim? I was a mix. Like I was, uh, there are lots of family stories that kind of detail a person who was kind of weirdly confident, sort of overconfident even. I remember that being on some of my school reports, which is Bim would be a better student if she wasn't so overconfident in her abilities because I just thought, it's fine. Like everyone said, Bim's very intelligent. She just doesn't apply herself. Bim's smart. If only she would stop talking. If only Bim would not think that it's enough to just turn up.

Like, there was a lot of that. So I was kind of like a sort of a dick, really, about my understanding of my own intelligence. I was like, it's fine, guys, I'm smart. It's fine. Like, I really wore that like a cape. And it was like, yeah, but you're a poor student. And I was like, oh, that's different.

Oh, my bad. So, like, there was some of that in there. But on the other hand, I was also kind of quiet and sort of like very sensitive. You know, my family had a number of nicknames for how, you know, how sensitive I was. And like, oh, don't talk to Bim. she's going to burst into tears or don't talk to her, she'll lash out.

I was very sensitive for a number of years. God bless my parents. They really just let me work it out without kind of, you know, adding to my trauma. But I was a bit of a confused little bag. And then when I came back to London, so we moved to Nigeria when I was younger, and then we came back when I was a teen. And it was kind of like an adjustment period. I remember year 11 in an East London school.

Shout out to Brampton Manor. I know. It's a lot. And I remember I was bullied by a couple of girls. And to this day, I deplore bullies. I will, I cannot stand for bullies of any kind. It really rubs me the wrong way. I hate bullies so much. But I remember kind of thinking to myself like, man, I can't wait to get out of this horrible place so that I can go be myself somewhere. You seem to share my sensibility, which is to shout out the libraries in a very positive way and shout out the schools. in quite a negative way. They've been just quite interesting. Right. Oh, God.

I really like some of my teachers so much. But some of those kids, my kids are rough. Listen, I don't know how anyone survives childhood. It's a hellscape. I don't know how. Jesus. My English teacher, who I will never forget, Miss Lloyd Child, she was a champion of mine.

She was like, Bim, you've got to keep writing. She was, you know, I would write essays or whatever. She'd be like, this is so good. You should write more. Like, you should do more. I loved Miss Loychild. if she's out there man i hope she's doing well it's such a cliche oh you like your english teacher you like the library and now you're a writer and i was like yes i am a cliche i liked all those

things i loved my english teacher i loved the library i loved reading like it's such a it's such a cliche of like the teen movie oh she sat in the library during a lunch i really did i loved it your second bookshelfy choice is pride and prejudice by jane austin was this a miss loyloyd child moment No, no, this was independent reading. You have to remember that in the UK, there were a couple of big cultural moments that affected the bulk of the country, I think, around the same time. In the mid-90s, literally in 1995, there was a six-episode British TV drama that was adapted from Jane Austen's novel by Andrew Davies. and at that time I mean how could we I think I was 13 or 14 and I saw Colin Firth

and I said yes I'm going to read the source book on this I'm going to take this back to his source now Has you ever made it onto the first aid kit as Darcy I'm interesting to know we've mentioned him No sadly we haven't brought Colin Firth honestly one of my dreams

I just thought I remember watching it and thinking to myself, it's not like I fancy him, but I just want to, I want to wear him like a coat. Like I just, I just had such a reaction. Like so many young, so many young girls at the time. I was like, yes, please, yes. Whatever's going on there, I would like to be a part of it. I don't even understand what I want, but I just want to be there.

I want to go to there. Wherever there is, take me there. Like, there was just something about, about. And, you know, Jennifer Ellie as well is so beautiful. And she's such a good actor. And their chemistry was palpable. And I was like, oh, these two, I mean, I got to, yeah, they're going to get together. But also, wow, the journey is worth it.

I was in love. So I saw that and I thought, yeah, I'm really ready. And I think prior to that, I was really into kind of like the old British writers. I'd watched Jane Eyre and read the book when I was younger. I'd read all of Dickens by the time I was like 12 or 13 because it was what was available to us. Wow. We had to do the mayor of Castabridge. at school.

Not one of the big ones even. Bro, honestly, when I think about it, I'm kind of like, who was doing this? Why was this on the syllabus? Because, like, why the fuck are we reading Thomas Hardy as children in Nigeria? But they really had the mayor of Castabridge on the reading list at school in Nigeria. So anyway, I read a bunch of English authors. So I'd burned through all the Brontes. And I hadn't read any Austin when I finally got to Bright and Prejudice.

I'd done some Shakespeare, did not like Shakespeare. I was like, enough of that, because I didn't understand that plays had to be performed. Did you read Pride and Prejudice while you were still in Nigeria in this mammoth reading moment? No, I read this in London and I was just like, oh my God, what is this? Like, this is so good. Again, the thread being, this is so funny. She is so funny. And that book is just hilarious.

Like, she's so sly. And like, even the jokes I didn't get when I was a teenager, I know, I try now every year to reread at least one Austin, every year. And this year it actually was Pride and Prejudice and Persuasion that I went back to. And I'm not a huge fan of persuasion. But Darcy I have so much time for. I love a stir. I think he's one of the origins of my stern man sort of like fancy. Like every time, there's a dude who's sort of like, you know, having to kind of work through his stern quietude. I'm like, yeah, put it in the bag. I'll take that. I'll take two of those. Like, yeah, I love a stern man.

We must explore this more. I do, I should. I feel I must. summarize the book that we are discussing at the moment because it's not good to assume that everyone's read the classics and that's not what we're about on this podcast at all, but it's so interesting that this book has come up before June Sarpong picked it this season. It's obviously come up countless times during this entire run of this podcast. But of course we are talking about Jane Austen's 1813, romantic and satirical novel of manners following the dynamic Elizabeth Bennett, one of five daughters tasked with marrying well by their father in order to secure their family's inheritance. It revolves around the importance of marrying for love rather than money

or social prestige, despite the communal pressure to make a wealthy match. Jane Austen called this book her own darling child. It's so interesting to me that Jane Austen, for people who haven't read her or know about her probably presents as this woman who might be similar to the women in her novel, but not many people know she never married. She actually turned down engagement after engagement and was deeply in debt by these money problems that her father had left behind when he passed away. And she still did not make a match, even though it would have been this hugely helpful economic move. I love hearing why this book resonates with women especially, because there's always a different aspect.

We did drop off at the Darcy point and it creating in you some kind of desire for a Darcy-esque match for the rest of your actual life. Yes, yes. He's one of my formative crushes, hopefully embodied by Colin Firth. But I think I fell in love with him even in the book

because I just thought, oh God, what a utterly disagreeable person. I wonder what I can do to make it more agreeable, which is a whole problem, I think, for many a woman in therapy. but there was just something about him that I found really compelling and I think it really was the fact

that he sparked so well with Elizabeth and also that she gave him such short trip she was just kind of like you're not going to be a dick to me like do what you must Mr Darcy but like please don't bring that shit here and I respected that I thought there was something about him

that she understood oh this could be you know with hindsight and like having read it multiple times since the first time I read it I see different shades of what Elizabeth was maybe responding to there is obviously an attraction and because it's not sort of met with his own sort of simpering attraction back she's like well fuck this guy and I'm like oh same on behalf of every

sort of like stush woman out there I'm like yes 100% why is he not falling at your feet I'm sorry but like that's strike one and I love I love seeing like shades of that in there as well I'm kind like yeah my my expectation is adoration I cannot believe that this rich man just because he's rich thinks he's now you got to fancy me what the hell so I thought that was just credible to read and just kind of be like, oh yeah, I see why Elizabeth's a little bit mad, because this guy's a dick and she expects, you know, people not to be. So like, yeah, I see that. And I thought there was something just so interesting in all the side characters.

Like, I used to be so contemptuous of Mrs. Bennett, who is a very silly woman, but also a silly woman of her time, who also fully understood that it is not easy to be an unmarried woman during this time, not in this place. So, yeah, I used to be very kind of like anti-Mrs. Bennett. And now I just see a woman who understood so clearly that without good marriages, the whole family was buggered. And so she was perhaps a bit too much, but she was only doing what she thought was right to secure certain things. And I love seeing myself sort of evolve and change with that. And I'm also, you know, by turns, more irritated with Mr. Bennett, a sort of ineffectual self-pleased man who, you know, one of the lines I think about all the time is, you know, when he says, oh, I'll forgive myself soon enough.

And I'm like, yeah, I'm sure you will, you bastard. I'm sure you will. Like, how remarkable that men are able to forgive themselves so quickly. Meanwhile, Mrs. Bennett is carrying the burden of trying to make sure her daughters make good matches. But you're out here sitting there kind of going, no, it's a sorry business, but I'll forgive myself. I'm like, yeah, that's literally the way of patriarchy, you bastard. I have no time with Mr. Bennett. I mean, be clear with how you feel, Ben.

I love that. I love that our relationships, maybe a little bit like with films or, you know, certainly heavily, you know, genreed films like rom-coms or, you know, Disney films, that our relationship to the characters needn't be frozen in the time of us reading it, that actually they can change with life experience and therapy, as you mentioned. For sure. Very important. Two things there, yes. I'm still in love with Tramp from Lady in the Tramp.

I now know as an adult woman. Not a great match for me. Absolutely not. I can't have a relied upon. I understand that now. I wonder, Ben, it sounds like you're drawn to the strong female heroines. I'm wondering if there is a literary heroine that you most identify with.

And is it Elizabeth Bennett? No, actually. I think I identify with other people more. There is a character in another book that I'll mention during this podcast that I really identify with a lot more in a way that feels, like when I first read it, I kept having to put the book down. and gather myself

because I was like, oh, God, I see myself so clearly in her. But Elizabeth, I think, is up there. I think she's top five. Because, I mean, it's the same way when everyone's like, oh, I'm definitely Carrie. And it's like, I don't think you're carry, actually.

So I think everyone's urge when they're watching pride or reading Pride and Prejudice is to kind of be like, oh, I'm definitely Elizabeth. And I'm like, I hate to break it to you. You're very much a Liddy and everyone hates you. Or worse, your kitty. Or you're Mary, actually. you know, annoying little Mary. That's who you are. But I see how you need to believe that you're

Elizabeth and I'm going to let you have that because you need that. I can see a game being patented here very, very quickly. Which Austin woman do I present as and which one am I actually? Right. Right. Right. In the card game in the works. I wonder if you've led us seamlessly onto your third book choice by talking about the female protagonist that you maybe identify most with. And that's the Girl's Guide to Hunting and Fishing by Melissa Bank. Have I led us into the right place? You really have an incredible, incredible segue there, just so smooth. It's a smooth segue. It's worth summarizing this for anyone who hasn't read it. This is a very funny collection of connected stories about Jane, a woman maneuvering her way through love, sex and relationships

after following the advice from a manual called How to Meet and Marry Mr. Wright. It is like a modern day Pride and Predators. Jane learns that love doesn't actually follow expected patterns or paths. It's a critically acclaimed book with a woman's internal world at its centre that went on to become a bestseller in the US and the UK when it was published in 1999. 1999, that golden year, tell us, Bim, about why this has made it onto your list and your identification with Jane as a lead role. So I did not read this book in 1999. In 1999, I was still a teenage girl and I don't think I was aware of this book until a couple of years later. And I've written actually, I wrote about this book about four or five years ago, maybe even longer, but I basically

was talking and waxing lyrical about how it shaped my 20s. And I still think that. I think it's one of the books of my life. I think it's one of the books that really gave me a sort of insight into what my life could be. It didn't have to be it, but it could be it. And, um, Melissa Bank, I think, is perhaps, it's weird. She's not written many books. And I think a lot of people have forgotten her, which is like a very sad state of affairs for me. You know, this book is, like I said, one of my favorites of all time.

To me, when I read her, I remember thinking, oh, she's like John Cheever, but she's, she's young and modern and a woman and funny. But she's just as skilled. Like I believe very strongly that she's just, she's so good. I think that's the thing. Like the way Melissa wrote Jane, it's so interesting because the book, like you've mentioned, is a collection of linked stories.

So in some of the stories, Jane is sort of like very, very present. And in some of them, she's so peripheral. She's just on the side of a thing. And I think it's so interesting to have a book where the main character is often missing from it. So it's like I said, it's a bunch of stories that she wrote over the course of, I think, a decade, maybe even longer to write this book.

And she was doing it while she was working in copyright. She was working a job as a copywriter, and she apparently declined the chance to advance in her career. Like her boss would offer her a promotion. She'd be like, no, thanks, just so that she could maintain the pace that she was in with her book writing. Like she just knew that this book required a sort of slow and steady hand. So like, yeah, it took her more than 10 years to write it. And each story is so distinct. And yet together they are, it's not a seamless sort of feeling, but they really.

really kind of stop in and check in on Jane or people around Jane, are people connected to Jane at different points in her life. And the result is just phenomenal. You really get a glimpse into Jane's interior life at different stages of her life and some of the terrible mistakes that she makes along the way and some of the heartbreaks that she endears, some of the grief, some of the, just the way to be, how to sort of be a person in a body in the world. I find it just just incredibly moving. It works so well as a thing that you dip in and out of, which is part of its charm, part of its power,

is that wherever you open, the story will take you somewhere. And it's like you need only go to the story that means the most to you in that moment, and you'll find something. And you can always kind of, you know, reach back or look forward. But there's so many ways to be inside this one book. And in turn, it tells you that you can be any number of ways. You don't have to be one thing forever.

You can be multiple things at the same time. You can be multiple things over time. The world is your oyster. You're able to be a person who is different to everybody that she is interacting with, and that's okay. Like this book really pulled something from me. It let me see the possibility of my life. Oh, that's so powerful. I do want to say to our listeners that you have written a brilliant article about this book on BuzzFeed.

You've already been so illuminating about it in what you've said. But you say in that article that this is the reading material you press into the hands of female friends, whether solicited or not. Yes. But that there is still this terrible ghettoizing of women's writing in the literary world. And I wonder if you could expand on that. I don't know. I grew up in the era of chicklets. And it was written about, it was spoken about in a very sort of derisory way.

Oh, it's chicklet, you know. It's popular. It's, you know, the girl. I always love it. It's a beach read. And it was always kind of presented as sort of like less than. Someone like, you know, the girls try. They really try. But you know, they're not out here doing meaty, like manly fiction. I used to work in a bookstore many years ago. Shout out to Borders, RIP. Truly. Truly. What a time. And I remember, you know, there'd be the three for two table, which was often kind of pastel colored and books by women, largely four women. And they sold. huge numbers. And the thicker books, the literary fiction, was always on the shelves, you know, not to be browsed in quite the same easy way as laid out on a table. And the different sometimes you would see would be the men walking up to their big important books. And I'm

like, I'm sorry, but that is basically shopaholic with horses. What are you chatting about? Like, that is not. Like, you think you're reading some hardcore, like, no, that's just period shopaholic. That's what that is. And instead of a, lighty young woman who like shopping. It's a man at war who loves his horse. Like this is neither here nor there. Let's not pretend that this is like some deep difference. But there is like the sort of weird like marginalising of women's voices. And it's been going on obviously long before I was alive. But sometimes you really see it kind of like laid bare and working in the bookshop really gave me a sort of insight into that. And I was just so irritated by it because I just kept thinking

there are so many good books that have sort of been swept under the carpet because people are of thinking about them as like very inconsequential fluff nonsense. And there is nothing wrong, by the way, with inconsequential fluff nonsense. But there was definitely this feeling that if it's for women by women, it can't be very good. And this book often got put into like these sections that were basically a sort of like looking down your nose at them. I'm kind of still reeling from your insight into the ghettoization of women's literature in bookshops.

I hadn't really thought about the ways that female written literature was sold to me or presented to me as a young person. I'm now having all of these flashbacks of the chicklet that was included at the front of magazines with like a nail polish and a nail file for your holiday reading purposes, which actually in the episode that we recorded with Candice Carty Williams, she had found Angus Songs and Perfect Snogging. One of her most formative books on the front of a magazine. So it had a duality there. Sometimes it could introduce you to something so life-changing. But I'm now thinking all of those times where I would go to a bookshop with a boy or a man throughout my life.

And the diverging of paths is actually a thing. I'd never thought about it like that before. God, that needs to be addressed. doesn't it? Oh, I think it's a lot better than what it was. Because yeah, it was kind of like aggressively gendered. It's better now where it's kind of like, oh, let's just be gender neutral here. Let's, if you'd like the book, pick it up. But yeah, when I was definitely when I was working as a, in bookstores and also when I was younger, I think for sure, it really was kind of like incredibly apparent that, you know, like you said, a diverging of past, boys go here, girls go there,

go find your book and then come back and we'll meet at the tail. And it carries on because yes, Angus Thongs and Full Frontal Snugging is perhaps one of the great British classics of the last 30 years. Full frontal snogging. I gave it the film title, the cop-out film title. It is Full Frontal Snogging. It's fantastic. Listen, I was a children's bookseller at Borders. So I was very, I pressed Louise Renison into so many young people's hands.

Like read this book. It's great. All of them. And again, hilarious. Just incredibly funny. Incredibly age-appropriate. Just the best thing. And so, yes, I'm so delighted that it was in front of a magazine,

but there was something to be said for what the idea of the books that were free with magazines and what they meant and what they were supposed to be. It was kind of like disposable nonsense. Once you ghettoise it, you're just kind of like, oh, yeah, you become one of those women who's like, well, I don't read those books, which is just bullshit. You should read those books. They're good.

They're very good books. I wonder if that energy, that drive to correct that ghettoizing, is something that inspired the first aid kit, Do you think there's something about redressing a balance that inspired your brilliant, brilliant team up with Nicole? I think so. I think for sure. One of the things that we were very clear on was trying to sort of like fix what had sort of been pushed to the side. The idea of women's desire front and centre as opposed to just like a little thing that you tend to on the weekends. Like, no, it can be a thing that you think about all the time. It can be a thing that you are questioning and examining and thinking about why this person. how this person, what are the things that have led me to this place?

Why do I feel this way? Why can't I feel this way about this other person? What's the thing that's compelling me here? What is the thing that is turning me off this? That I think is a worthwhile pursuit. And I think for a long time, a lot of people have understood women and their desires to be sort of like secondary.

They're not the thing that kind of animate a life. And it's like, no, what if I told you it could animate a life? What if I told you you could find such a rich depth in exploring the reason that. for your desire and how you landed there. That's really what Thurse Kitt was about, was just trying to kind of unpick it a little bit for you to kind of think, wait, why?

Why this person? Why now? And the answer is, oh, because Hollywood put this in place in 1932, and you're like, oh, I see. Like, that was a big part of it, was trying to sort of fix the thing that had been sort of maligned or sidelined for so long. Star Wars Andor, streaming exclusively on Disney Plus.

Cassian Ander, Empire is choking us. I need all the heroes I can get. From the creators of Rogue One. There is an organized rebel effort. Get a hunt started. Witness the beginning. This is what revolution looks like. Of rebellion.

I'm tired of losing. Wouldn't you rather give it all up to something real? Star Wars Andor. Original series streaming September 21st, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and Cs apply. Free stuff tastes better. Fact.

It's not a fact. It tastes like I want something. It's like my taste buds know I've not been charged. and they're celebrating. You think your taste buds have counted your change. Try it. It tastes like coffee. It tastes like free coffee.

And all I had to do is collect four little beans. Costa Club members who buy four handcrafted drinks at Costa Coffee get the fifth free when they use a reusable cup. Because at Costa Coffee, loyalty is a big deal. Subject to availability only at selected stores, excludes delivery, terms and conditions at costa.com. The podcast is made in partnership with Bailey's Irish Cream. Bailey's is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women,

celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Bayleys is the perfect adult treat, whether in coffee, over ice cream, or paired with your favourite book. Enjoying the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast, share the literary love and be a part of the future of the Women's Prize Trust by supporting our charitable programs for writers and readers. leaders. Donations of all sizes help us to continue empowering women, regardless of their age, race, nationality or background to raise their voice and own their story. Search for, support the Women's Prize to find out more. Your fourth bookshelfy choice is an absolute powerhouse of a book, one that cannot be ignored and has not been ignored. It's a huge bestseller. And that is Station 11 by Emily St. John Mandel. You've chosen a book about a killer cough. I can't believe you're doing this to me,

this is Emily's fourth novel published in 2014, which won the Arthur C. Clarke Award for Science Fiction Writing. It feels so incredibly relevant. It's set in the Great Lakes region before and after a huge swine flu pandemic called Georgia flu, has swept through the world killing most of its population. It's recently been made into a TV series, a mini-series for HBO. This is dystopian fiction that lands right where we are in this current climate and current moment. You will probably find on any search engine right now that all of the information about the series comes up before the book, which is always the way with successful adaptations, but be under no illusions. This is a really, really serious.

tome from Emily. Tell us about why this book has made it onto your list. Not just because of the pandemic, I'm hoping. No, no. We haven't talked about the pandemic and I feel like you're the person to get into it with them, having described it as your not crying but wailing year. Yes. Let's get into Station 11.

Yeah. So, session 11 for me, I read it long before the pandemic. The pandemic wasn't even a twinkle in our eyes. We did not know anything. of what was to come. The horrors. Oh, the horrors. My friend told me about it and my instinct was to kind of wrinkle my nose and be like, I don't think I want to read that. My friend is a huge purveyor of deep, dark, depressing books. She's an incredibly talented writer herself and she kind of leans toward the books that really kind of take you on a sort of deep dark emotional

journey. And I was like, Karen, you know what? Just hold on to that, yeah? And then I could not put it down. I was completely taken with it. It's a nearly perfect thing. I think there is so little wrong with it by saying it's not perfect. Like it's just shy of perfection. I think that's my way of trying to leave room because I actually think it is perfect. It just hit me. There was something about it. Like I talk a lot about the girl's guide to hunting and fishing as the book that shaped my 20s. I think Station 11 is the book that shaped my 30s and sort of gave a very specific. But I wouldn't have moved to America if it wasn't for station 11. I don't think I would have taken chances if it wasn't for station 11. It suddenly just hit me. Because of course you live in New York now. We have

lost you to the second greatest city in the world. What was that journey? What was that illumination for you? I mean, it's very hard to articulate because it doesn't seem like this book of all things would be the thing, but it just hit me like not because I thought, oh, there's a pandemic coming. But I just thought if there was one to come, if money lost its power, if we had nothing, if we had to start from scratch, are you living the life that you want to be like caught in forever? Like, is this the thing that you want? Is this the thing that in the years after, when you're surviving, after the Georgia flu was taken out most of humanity and you're trying to rebuild the world? Will this be the story of your life up to that like pivotal point? And then I was like,

No. Just go. So I just, I decided, okay, well, then we're going to chase a thing. We're going to go to a place. We're going to do a thing. I think it was a way for me to stop saying no to the things that I really wanted and to kind of experiment more with yes. And I've always been a person who kind of is like, yeah, I'll figure it out.

And I just say yes and do the thing. But this really was the thing that propelled me into a new sort of realm of being that way, of just kind of like, don't say no to the thing first. Like if it doesn't work for you, by all means. of course turn it down. But if it works in a way that is tangible, that you can touch and you can think about and you can sort of frame as a thing

that would be useful to you, then do it. And this book, I think, was the thing that just picked me up and said, hey, look at this, and then go out and live your life. And so I did. It hit me at a very specific time in my 30s and I just thought to myself, what are you waiting for?

What are you waiting for? If a pandemic came today, this cannot be the thing that you were doing at the time. you have to get up and you have to go. And that book pushed me into living in a very different way after. There's my life before Station 11 and my life after it. It wasn't like I was seeking permission, but perhaps I was because this book gave it to me. Gosh, that is so powerful, Bim, because what I'm hearing is an invaluable lesson,

which is rebuilding one's life before it gets smashed. Right. Essentially, living. living in the moment is the hardest thing to do for any human. But we so often wait for the crash before we re-evaluate, right? So what you're talking about is living in a genuine place of growth saying, hold on, the pandemic hasn't happened, but if it were to, how do I want to say I'm living my life? and the book is so much about rebuilding, isn't it?

So much dystopian fiction leans into the idea of the dissolution of society. But this really is about how do we rebuild? Yeah. And how do we remain human while we're doing it? I think that's the thing that was really compelling because the thing about Station 11 is it's somehow incredibly unflinching. It's not a cold retelling of facts. It's incredibly human.

It's filled with all these stories of very, very simple people, just people who were outliving their lives and then this horror. Like, the Soviet fiction is about the thing that you worried about, well, it's happened. And then the thing that Emily St. John Mandel does is that she then makes it so that you're like, okay, so what do you do after the thing happens? How do you maintain the best parts of humanity while also making new ways to be human in a world that is so fundamentally changed? she resists the urge to tie things up in a neat bow.

So sometimes it feels like, oh, those two characters, surely they must meet. And Emily's just kind of like, why should they? So often life does not resolve itself neatly, and I'm not going to do that here. And it's an, it's a boss move because I'm always kind of like, damn, I'm so cheap. I'd be like, yeah, put it in. Let them meet. Let there be a massive, you know, interaction. And Emily's like, no need, calm down.

And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a way to tell a story. So, like, you know, it's a very interesting thing. to catch the skill of a writer in the middle of enjoying the story and kind of be like, oh, wait, no, she's very good. Oh, she's very good at this. Like, that's the thing that catches me. How is, after two years of this pandemic, your post-pandemic life, when the actual pandemic struck,

were you in the position that you wanted to be after reading this book? I still can't believe that you managed to do a sort of pandemic rehearsal. That seems very unfair. I know, I know. It was pure serendipity, you know, in quotes, lull serendipity. But I think I was mentally in a place that felt good to me. I can't stress enough how privileged I am in so many ways to have a job that I like so much to live in an apartment by myself that I like very much.

To be in New York, which is a very kind of different beast to living in the UK over the last few years. Like I honestly really, really like my life in New York. Like it's a life. built, you know, by my own hands in very specific ways. And I'm very glad that these are the bricks that I chose. Having said that, the pandemic was incredibly hard and it still is, lest we forget, it's ongoing. Shout out to Omicron.

And so, like, it feels very much like we're stuck in this moment for a bit longer. And it makes me all the more grateful that the life that I did build was one I think that was able to withstand the worst of it. Wow. I think this is a huge lesson for anyone listening. It's certainly a huge lesson for me. Read this book and live your life now. Prepare your life as though you're preparing for a pandemic.

I think those are really lines to live by. Wow. Your fifth and final book choice this week is Circe by Madeline Miller. This was shortlisted for the Women's Prize in 2019, So it feels nice and relevant for us on this podcast. This is a multi-award winning book, which is currently being adapted also as a drama for HBO. HBO just hovers up, all that good literature, respect to HBO.

It's set in the Greek heroic age and is an adaptation of various Greek myths, most notably the Odyssey, but told from the perspective of the witch, Circe. She is the daughter of Helios, God of the Son, and mightiest of the Titans. When it's discovered she has the power of witchcraft, she's banished to an island, but it's here that she meets Odysseus for whom she risks everything. This seems to have elements of all of your book choices in Hymn, the power to choose, the hot guy, living life on your own terms, but also the deep and profound craft that Madeline Miller has for writing. What drew you to this book, having already summarised your personality through your

book choices? Listen, this is another one that my friend Karen kind of put directly in my hands and she said, you've got to read this book. And having learned my lesson session 11, I said, say less. So I went online and I ordered it immediately. And I was blown away. The thing with Madeline Miller is it takes her 10 years at a pop to finish a book. And when you read the resulting work, you think to yourself, take another 10 love, go on. Like, you're so good at this. Like, if I have to wait 10 years for each one of these, then yes, that is my choice and I choose it.

And speaking of choice, the thing about Circe is she begins life as a person who has none. She has no choice. It's that thing about the difference between, you know, your best options and true choice. And so often what is handed to Searcy is here are your options. Pick one. And it's not true choice. It doesn't feel like the world is open to her. And that's saying a lot because she is herself a demi-godress.

Like she is the child of a god and it means nothing. So often I think a lot of us have a sort of like a sort of a short circuit when we realize that, oh, I don't have that many options. I've got to make the best of the few options I have. And that is a very different beast to the world as your oyster. Go forth and pick one. Like, you know, choose a life. And I think many of us only learn that.

at the worst possible time. And for Circe, she learns it so early in life and she's so aware of the limits of her options. And I think it kind of builds a sort of flint inside of her that means that when the worst thing happens, she is able to sort of climb out of what I think could be a pit of despair for so many other people. And instead it's the beginning of the making of her.

It's wonderful to think about these huge mythical women becoming extremely accessible. Do you think this book made the Greek myths more appealing in some way? I don't know if I would say appealing. I think it made them more textured. Because the thing about Circe is, as I read the book, I suddenly realized that she had been on the periphery of so many of the stories that I'd read as a child.

You know, there's that old joke that there are different phases for different, for girls. So like you have your horse phase, you have your Egyptology phase, you have your Greek myth phase. I definitely had my Greek myth stage where I was kind of like, all my life is Greek myths. I don't want to hear anything that isn't a Greek. Right? You just become a certain. You start making random observations. Oh, that's just like when Zeus spoke. And you're like, shut up. No one cares. But like. Oh my goodness. Why weren't we at school together? This was so me, like, Orpheus in the underworld basically. Oh, mate. entire life because I was like, okay, the underworld is a real thing.

But that for me, before seeing Get Out was like my son complies. I was like, and I'm being transported to the river of sticks. And I will never. Again, as a teenager, just having that moment to just really have your epic, epic emotional life told through the Greek minute. That's so interesting. Right. And I think, again, shout out of the libraries. They have these massive, incredible books that really just kind of.

of say, hey, come, come through, child with too many hours in your life. Come here and read this about some, you know, Greek stories that are literally thousands of years. And I'm like, okay, I'll be right there. So, like, I knew all these stories. And it was only when I was reading Cursie that I realized that she was so intimately entwined in these stories. She's somebody's cousin. Oh, like the idea of the Minotor is her nephew.

It didn't occur to me. Ariadne is her niece. A Daedalus, who is the father of Icarus, is one of her lovers. and you think to yourself, wait a goddamn minute. Circe was in all of these? Why didn't I know who Circe was when I was reading about these Greek myths? And the answer is, even in those stories, we still marginalise women. And the power of Madeline Miller is to kind of bring forth a character who, it turns out,

was at the scene of so many of these iconic Greek myth stories. You didn't know because nobody thought to give Circe the privilege of a loudspeaker at that point. And then Madeline Miller rocks up and it's like, oh, don't worry, I'll write you the story. And there were all these, you know, the book is littered with these quiet observations that really have much larger resonance. She says nymphs were known as brides.

And she goes, and she's herself a nymph. And she's like, but that is not what we were. We were not brides. We were sort of an endless feast that were laid out upon a table. And very bad at getting away, which is such an allusion to sexual assault, which is obviously all over Greek myth and kind of, you know, in a very casual way,

which again, as a grown-up, I'm kind of like, wait, we were just reading about casual rape like that? What the fuck? Like, but it's like, yeah, well, Zeus, well, he's a sort of a Randy God. And you're like, I don't think that's Randy. I think that's an assault. I think that is a serial rapist. What the fuck, Zeus? Like, there's so many stories where you're just kind of like, huh? And wait, kids read this? Okay. But when she says that line about, you know, they call us brides, but that's not what we are. We're an endless feast laid out. and we're very bad at getting away. The stories have written us

that were bad at getting away. The realities were bad at getting away. That really, that messed me up, just this idea of it. And what I really love about Circe is that she has these moments of realization over and over and over again, this feeling of waiting for tragedy, waiting for the bad thing to happen.

But then there's also this part of her, which is kind of like, but then I can also guard against it. I too can pick up tools. I too can figure out a way to repel it, or at least to kind of lessen the blow. And I always found that just an incredibly uplifting thing to read, this idea that you're not trying to avoid a life in which there is pain and sadness and grief, but you're trying to figure out how to overcome it or at least to come through it.

Oh, goodness. It's just having me go back and think about all of the Greek goddesses on the peripheries of the action. I'm just determined to reframe. in my mind to help me with my own life today, you know, and not to undercut a very serious conversation, but I feel like the card game of which, which Austin woman are you, which Greek goddess are you, could be fast in the making because these are the women that help you shape your identity as you read at this formative time. Right. And so many of them, I think, are presented in such black and white terms. And it really,

really is one of those things where Madeline Miller throws some light onto these very kind of, you know, either or one or the other kind of stories. And you think to yourself, oh, yeah, this person was deeply complex. Like, yes, a made-up mythical creature, sure, sure, sure. But, you know, the stories that we make up tell a story about who we are and what we like and what we value. And it's the complexity. And this idea of why the gods do the things that they do, you know, to mortals and how they do it. And that's so interesting. And Circe being not a mortal, but not an all-powerful God,

puts her in a very unique position and makes it all the more worthy of study. So you can really think about her as a person who didn't have all the power. She's the reason we say sorcery. Like, that's her. Like, these things that we didn't think about, these things that we just didn't think about,

that's Madeline Miller's lane, is for you to suddenly, flesh out the bare bones that you sort of learned at school in a very, like we learn of these people as heroes or villains and what she does is she shades them in. And with Circe in particular, she brings her from from the sidelines directly into the spotlight and you get to spend time with a character that you didn't realise was present all along and had so much to say, if only, you know, you took the time to listen. Well, Venus is not just a razor, women. listen and select your books wisely.

Bim, I could talk to you all Christmas. We do have to wrap up with the almost impossible question, which is if you had to choose one book from this list as your favourite, to take with you into the underground bunker ready for that second, third wave, what would it be in my? Oh, that's a horrible, horrible question and I resent it. I think it might be Searcy. It was one of the first books I reread at the very beginning of the pandemic.

It felt appropriate to sort of accompany quiet contemplation and solitude, which is what we were all doing that very first time in 2020. And I found it to be a very, very, very solid companion. And so I think by virtue of it being the one that, you know, I have the most experience with taking into a metaphorical bunker. It's going to have to be Circe. I think it's the perfect choice. And please take it down there and keep the phone line open so I can dial into you for even more insight.

And of course, this is a book that has been on the Women's Prize shortlist. And we encourage you to purchase it and find out what we're talking about for yourself. Bim, thank you so much for joining me, cross-continence, in your wonderfully pandemic rehearsed life and the place that we find you today. I wish you a very, very happy holiday and thank you again for your time and insight. Thank you so much that. It was such a pleasure. I'm Zawi Ashton and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast. Please rate and review this podcast.

It's the easiest way to help spread the word about the female talent you've heard about today. Thank you so much. for listening. I hope to see you next time. You've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Star Wars Andor streaming exclusively on Disney Plus. Cassian and Ander, Empire is choking us. I mean all the heroes I can get. From the creators of Rogue One.

There is an organized rebel effort. Get a hunt started. Witness the beginning. This is what revolution looks like. Of rebellion. I'm tired of losing. Wouldn't you rather give it all to something real? Star Wars Andor, original series streaming September 21st, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required T-s and Cs apply.