Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S5 Ep2: Bookshelfie: Gina Miller

Episode Date: April 6, 2022

Campaigner, Gina Miller tells Vick Hope how she has taken adversity and turned it into power. Gina is a businesswoman and dedicated philanthropist who strongly believes in standing up for what she thinks is right, no matter the cost. She has shown this through her social justice work, her True and Fair Campaign, and through the legal challenges she launched against the government during Brexit. Her memoir, Rise, tells Gina’s remarkable story. Gina’s book choices are:  ** The Art of War for Women – adapted from Sun Tzu's Art of War - by Chin Ning Chu ** I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou ** The Handmaid’s Tale by Margaret Atwood ** A Room of One’s Own by Virginia Woolf Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season five of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women.   Don’t want to miss the rest of Season Five? Listen and subscribe now!   This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Of rebellion. I'm tired of losing. Wouldn't you rather give it all up to something real? Star Wars Andor. Original series streaming September 21st, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. It's quite interesting because a lot of people, when I came to sort of the public attention,

they sort of think it happened overnight. And I say it took me 30 years to come from nowhere. So I've been a campaigner for a very long time and I've had lots of failures and success. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope and I am your brand new host for season five of the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five boots by women that have shaped them. We have a phenomenal lineup of guests for 2022.

I guarantee you'll be taking away plenty of reading recommendations. Hello and welcome to today's episode of Bookshelfy. I'm Vic Hope and I am absolutely thrilled to be joining you as your new host for Series 5. Let me start by reminding you that this year's long list is out now and the 16 brilliant authors and their books can all be found on our website, www.women'spricefiction.com. Today's guest is the wonderful Gina Miller. She's a businesswoman, philanthropist, a responsible capitalist who campaigns for investment and pension reform, political transparency, social justice and charity, best known for winning her case against the government's attempt to invoke Article 50 without. Parliamentary approval, Gina continues a democracy and legality watching brief of the UK government's activities to this day. Her memoir, Rise, launched in 2018 at the Edinburgh Festival, which provides

life lessons in speaking out, standing tall and leading the way. There is so much we can learn from you, Gina. And so it's my absolute pleasure to speak with you today. Welcome to the podcast. Oh, thank you so much for inviting me. It's always lovely to speak on these sorts of podcasts because it gives me an opportunity to really have a good natter about all the things that I feel. It's so nice to be able to chat to you about books, about how they've shaped you and inspired you and impacted you. And, you know, I've seen a lot of interviews and read a lot of interviews that you've done. And I feel like it's a whole other prism to get to know you through, which is stimulating for me, but it's stimulating for you as well. I was definitely a bookworm growing up, because when we grew up growing up in what,

was British Guiana. We didn't have television or radio programs as such. So yes, we would rush down every day. Once a month, there'd be a big shipment of books that came in. And my older brother and I would rush down to see what was in the cargo that month. And so, yes, books were our friends from a very, very early age. What sort of books were coming in the shipment? Well, the ones that came from America were normally Marvel comic books. Oh, wow. Wow. And the ones from the UK were, you know, the old, the classics, the Jane Ayres, the Charles Dickens, books on history. I mean, at that point, I wanted to become an archaeologist of all things.

So I, you know, all the books on Egypt and myths and different empires. So yes, a really wide range. And were you a big reader? Did you enjoy it or did you feel that you had to read? Was it something your parents encouraged you to do? My parents definitely encouraged me to read, but I found it a real escapism. And I would read a chapter or a book and then spend hours afterwards imagining the place I just read.

So for me, it was not just escapism. It allowed me to explore my visions of what I thought the authors were writing about and places that I'd never been to. So it was very transportative for me, but also pure escapism. And what sort of books did you gravitate towards? And has that changed as you've gotten older? I mean, has reading itself, the act of reading and what it gives you and what you get from it. Has that changed you've got older? It has changed.

I think when you get very busy and you've got so many competing things in your mind or in your daily life, it's difficult sometimes to find the time. But it still has that power of escapism. And it still has that power to allow you to reflect on the life you're going through and experiencing at the time. And it gives you context, actually, because sometimes real life can be so overwhelming, escaping into a book. can somehow give you context and give you almost a safe place to be. And so I found reading quite different now that I'm older. But also, it gives me comfort sometimes as well to reread books I've read in the past. And I see them through a different lens now with the experience in the age I am now. And it helps me realize that actually the world goes through phases. Issues we face

are seasonal, are sort of repetitive throughout history. And we do tend to come out of them. So there is that sense of hope from seeing books, reading books, reading them through a modern lens of what might have happened in the past. And that escapism is still there and still very important to me. Oh, we still need it. In fact, we need it more than ever. The more world-whelmed we become by what we know, we know so, so much and experience so much and need to be able to give ourselves a break sometimes. So what sort of books have you got on the go at the moment or are you saving anything? Well, I'm going to reread, actually, a couple of books, but one of the books I've decided I'm going to reread is I know why the Caged Bird sings by Maya Angelou, because it's a

really powerful book. I like books that are about a real story. I mean, I like the escapism, but I also like to learn about other people's lives and the courage that they've shown and the experiences they've gone through. And actually reflecting on my knowledge of books, if you like, and the books that I've drawn to, they have had a resonance with my life and the failures and the challenges that I've experienced and seeing how other people have dealt with it and reading about their courage

and reflecting on a lot of women, the kindness with which they actually have come out of their situations as well is really helps me to have my spirit to be strong and to stay strong. So reading about other people's resilience, other women's resilience helps me to, fill up my own resilience if you like.

We're going to talk a little bit more about Maya Angelou and I know why the cagebird sings in just a bit because I know it's one of your chosen bookshelfy books. But you said just before we came on the record that you have a trunk full of books. A treasure trove of stories. What's this about? Well, I sort of, on my 50th birthday, which is a while ago now, I had said to my family and friends gathered, right, I now have knowledge, experience and confidence. I'm not going to misbehave for the next 10 years.

Oh, yeah. Yes. And I said after that, depending on what I achieve and where we are in the world, then I will sit back and get back to the things like music and books. So I have a trunk, what I call my relax trunk, and I've got records and music and books in there that I'm going to find the time. And my family always laugh when I say that because they say I'm like a, you know, I'm a fidget.

So when do I ever find the time? but I'm determined to find the time to open the lid of my trunk and just delve in, dive in to the things that will feed my soul. Well, I really, really hope you find that time because feeding the soul is the most enriching thing. So let's find out about the books that have enriched you throughout your life. Your first book-shelphy book, Gina, is The Art of War for Women by Chinning Chu. Now, forget everything you think you know about strength, strategy and success. this adaptation of the ancient masterpiece, The Art of War, shows women how to use Sun Tzu's philosophy

to win in every aspect of life. The influence of Sun Tzu's original text has grown tremendously in the West in recent years with military leaders, politicians, and corporate executives alike finding valuable insight in these ancient words. What insight did you find from the art of war for women? I read the original book, because I studied, as being an entrepreneur, a strategist and a campaigner,

I've kept the original book very close to me and close. So when I saw that this, the version for women, the art of war for women, was building on those, the nine principles, I was really intrigued to see how it would apply to women. And the things I've learned about it is not to compromise on ethics. It's how do you use weakness and turn it into strength? How do we see success and challenges from a very prismatic point of view rather than a single dimensional or two dimensional?

And it's taught me about how we see strength and strategy and success. And I think it's an invaluable book. When you're, I go, everything I do, I sort of approach as a strategy and look at how do I fight my battles, if you like. And it's so informative from that point of view. And it just allows you to realize that there are different ways of tackling whatever issue you're dealing with, whichever campaign I'm dealing with at the time. I don't have the same strategy every time. It allows me to consider what are the challenges, how are you going to approach it, what

strategies and how to overcome obstacles. I think as women, we have quite different obstacles to overcome societal obstacles still compared to men who may be doing campaigning or in whatever field we're in at the moment. So it gives you a female angle in terms of the battles you are taking on in life. do you pick your battles? Because I've heard you say, you know, I've always believed in standing up for what I think is right. I've always believed in speaking up when other voices are silent. I've always believed in refusing to be cowed by those who shout over you, who want you to go away, who think that just by dragging you through the mud, you will break. And there's a lot of that. And it can be too much for

someone to take. How have you stayed strong, resilient, and carried on standing up for what you think is right? It's quite interesting because a lot of people, when I came to sort of the public attention, and they sort of think it happened overnight. And I say it took me 30 years to come from nowhere. So I've been a campaigner for a very long time and I've had lots of failures and success. But two things I've never compromised on. One is if I don't go out searching for issues or battles or campaigns, if I experience them and I see people around me experiencing them, it's from that pain that I will campaign.

So I will know, I don't go out. I have to feel it. I have to be passionate about what I'm campaigning about. And I have to believe it. And if it comes from that place, it's very hard for other people to knock you down because their intellectual dishonesty can't penetrate your passion. So that's something I've never compromised on. And the second thing is I've got this warped way of thinking,

which is if someone's attacking me and they're abusing me, then I sort of think, well, I must be winning. Yeah. Because if I was being completely, if I was being completely, If I was going to be completely ineffective, then everyone would ignore me. So it's sort of, you know, I see it almost as a legitimate, them legitimizing what I'm doing and saying, actually, I've got a point. So I've sort of, those two things are sort of a way I look at it. But no, everything I do have, and I think it came from my parents, I do have a very strong view of what's right and wrong.

And I think the other thing I have, because lots of people have that, lots of people have that sense of what's right. wrong. But I do have a strong belief in my own ability to take the blows of arrows and that I'll get up again. There's been death, rape threats, racism, assault, all the things that are very, very traumatic.

How has your experience with online and physical abuse changed the way that you live your life now? So the online abuse is awful. The letters, the calls, the packages of things I don't know means that between the first court case and the second one, I was actually looked after by the terrorist squad. And we stopped going out.

We stopped going to the theatre, which we love, or going to book festivals and all these things. We stopped going out as a family. And I made the decision that I wouldn't go out with my children in case anything happened to me because they wouldn't be with me. So we lived like that for nearly three years. So actually, when lockdown came, it was a release. because I thought, oh, everybody else is busy now. You know, because we had sort of virtually been living in lockdown anyway.

But I think the most terrifying things were the letters because somebody had written, found my address, put a stamp on an envelope, put it in a letterbox. It was, you know, thought had gone into it, whereas, you know, from an armchair, typing a tweet is different. And, you know, one of the most terrifying letters was one saying that they knew where my two youngest children went to school and they'd be taken. And then they went into graphic detail of what would happen to them. And I didn't know if that was true. You never know if it's true. And so I just dropped everything. It was sent to my office and I rushed home, got them out of school

and just hugged and cried with them for the rest of the day. And, you know, it was really tough for me to let them go back out to school or to go out. But yeah, that was, as a mother, it was the most extraordinary. I can't actually put into words what that feels like. And after that happened, I wanted to give up. I didn't want to carry on. And then about a week later, I thought, actually, they would have won, they would win. And we then ended up having, you know, I ended up paying for more security because I thought those sorts of people, those voices, can't be mainstream in our society. And I need to do this to protect my children for the world that they're going to grow up in and all their friends and the future where we don't

have extremists being having the right to curtail our lives. So in an odd way I carried on, but I was frightened after that and I cried a lot more after that. And I wasn't as strong. So the last bit of the case was really tough to do. Are you strong now? I am now. I've had time off. I've had to think about what happened, how I did what I did. did. I sort of was not supposed to be in that position. And I've sort of reflected and thought, well, of course it was me. And it's just sounds an odd thing to say. But because of everything I've gone through, you know, I didn't get my law degree because I was raped in my final year, brutally raped. And that lives with me forever. I'm a survivor of domestic violence. You know, lived in a car,

in a car park with no money, with my, I've got a special need daughter. And all of it, I thought, well, all of it has given me the strength to carry on. And in a way, I'm fortunate to be who I am because I'm now successful enough in business that I don't have to rely on other people too much for money. So a lot of it, I have the financial independence. And I have got the ability to make a difference. And I think that's a massive privilege. And so I will carry on for as long as I can. I'm not saying forever, because if something traumatic happens again, I will need time to after myself because I always say to people, this whole idea that you're selfish if you say no is not true. Saying no is a good thing and finding time for yourself to look after yourself and

nurture yourself is a really, really good thing to sit in a corner and read a book, you know, as you're talking in your podcast today. These are all things that make you strong. So you do have to look after yourself. It's not a selfish thing. It's interesting that you use the words win when it comes to those people who try to hold you back, try to put you. down, tried to hurt you. And actually all the things that you've described that you've achieved, whether they are successes in business, professionally, financially, or whether it is just finding some peace and having that time to read your book, they're the ways in which you've won, which is what this book is all about, the art of war for women, the ways that we can win in

every aspect of life. What would winning mean to you? What does that look like to you? knowing I did the best I could and I didn't just stay quiet or sit on the sidelines. Trying my best, irrespective of the outcome, is what success is for me. Bayleys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Look in for a treat to pair with your favourite book, Bayleys is the perfect accompaniment to enjoy either over ice or over coffee. There are no better friendships than those formed around brilliant books. And since you're listening, we're guessing you love books as much as we do.

The Women's Prize has created an exclusive community that gives you a bookish backstage pass offering surprises and freebies plus unmissable reading recommendations and book chat from our friends, including me, Vic Hope. Search for Women's Prize friend to become a friend today. We cannot wait to meet you. Well, Gina, let's move on to your second bookshelfy book, which is The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood, of course. Of course it is.

It's a futuristic dystopian novel by Margaret Atwood, published in 1985. It's set in a near future New England in a strongly patriarchal, totalitarian, theonomic state, known as the Republic of Gilead, which has overthrown the United States government. The central character and narrator is a woman named Offred, one of the group known as Handmaids, who are forcibly assigned to produce children for the commanders, the ruling class of men in Gilead. The book has been recently adapted, of course, into a hit TV show starring Elizabeth Moss. Can you tell us about this book?

Why did you pick it, Gina? Why does it resonate with you? It actually wasn't a book I was aware of prior to lockdown. I mean, I was vaguely aware of it, but it wasn't really in my consciousness as a book I would read. But during lockdown, or prior to lockdown, actually, since I started my campaigning back in the sort of 20, 15, 2016, I started looking around the world and realizing that the rise of the right is actually a threat to women.

And people who have a very different ideological view of where society would go next and the fact that perhaps women have got too much, we are too much in the workplace, we've got too much equality, too much freedom, too much power. And I was told that this book touched on those issues. So I started reading it and found it quite scary in how realistic it could be and how plausible exploring those themes of women being put back in their place and going back to a matriarchal society. Because through my campaigning, some of the things I've been told is that the reason why we have children failing at school is because there's too many women in the workplace and that our place is to look after, be at home,

more, I mean, these are prominent politicians. Cross party have told me these things. And so I was really alarmed by what I was hearing. So this book put into context for me what I was already worried about. And I was extraordinarily impressed by how Margaret Atwood had already got there even before me, you know, and actually had seen this. Because I do think there is this idea that female agency and individuality is something that needs to be suppressed. And I think, it's something that started happening throughout the feminist movement is that the more we were fighting to be heard, there was this idea that we needed to dim our light and close our voices down and that we were too much of a threat. And I do think that, you know, reading the book, that

seeing that fear transforming society into one where it is a, it is about shutting women down in every way, including subjugating their right to reproduce, made me think that we have got to change our language to equality to, you know, it's about respecting each other and ensuring access for each other and bringing each other up together. Else something like this happens. Your perspective of the UK is quite a particular one as a child of the Commonwealth having in Guyana. In your memoir you said as a child of the Commonwealth, I had been brought up to believe Great Britain was the promised land, a culture where the world. the rule of law was observed and decency was embedded into the national fabric.

How has your view changed over the years? And what do you find is the reality of living in Great Britain that, you know, you seem to see reflected in this book? I think I'm so angry and sad that those in positions of power in political leadership have actually chose to divide us as a country and to diminish those values that I still think, are incredibly important to us as a country and to people in our country. When I first came as a little girl, I was expecting it to be the Britain I read in the books. I was always fascinated by British philanthropists and the stories of how they built Britain and the lessons of education and justice and all those things, even from a young age, I was very interested in.

And so when I arrived, I remember thinking, Britain's so great. That was the first thing they're hippie. My mum says the same. She could not believe it coming over from Nigeria. I know. It was great, but it wasn't just, it's not just, it was the food, it was the clothing. It was, people didn't seem to smile as much as I thought they should be smiling. So it was, there was a serenity, which I decided it was serenity, that maybe was a good thing and a coolness.

But in time, I've realized that actually the values that underpin that are still important. And I think we have too many politicians. and leaders are dividing us by politicising and preaching the politics of division, which I think is diminishing the things that are great about the foundations of Britain, about its tolerance and compassion and soft power around the world. And that's what I'm fighting for now is to get back to, I mean, some people say that, you know, I also have a, you know, a rose-tinted view of what Britain should be like, you know, compared to some of the more extreme views and why,

some of the maybe more right-wing Brexiteer type people, you know, their view of Britain. And I think my answer to that is they look backwards. I'm looking forwards. I want Britain to be on the world stage leading and actually leading for the crises we'll have in the future, which won't have borders, you know, the environmental climate change crises,

the movement of people, the integration of society, the aging of populations. These are all things that I think we could, We can share and collaborate with others in a meaningful way. So I still will fight for the Britain, I believe, exists. You talk about the future, and the future in particular for your children, for all of our children, because they are the future. The future is for them.

Yes. And this is a novel that deals with a possible future, a dystopian future. What are your main concerns for the future of Britain? I'm really concerned about us going backwards in terms of tolerance in, equality for women, for, you know, we see hatred and racism is rising, misogyny is on the rise. There's some disturbing data's out there if you look at the number of women who don't feel safe walking down the street. The low number of convictions on rape, I mean, there's some, the data is extremely worrying and we've got to find a way through to a place where we have

respect for each other and where people don't say women should, and must do this. Every sentence that begins with that is wrong because actually we shouldn't have to do any more, we shouldn't have to work any harder, it should be about equality. And so that's equality and access to justice, to fulfilling our dreams,

to wanting to be free to go out whenever we want to. You know, we've got to get back to that place. And I think we've got to fight for that right now. As a survivor of domestic abuse yourself, were parts of this book actually quite hard to read? Yes. There are lots of, and I don't know why, but as I'm drawn to books that seem to be also telling stories of people

or experiences where people have been subjected for being strong and being free and others wanting to close them down or to break them. I think it's that idea that if you're too confident, if you're too loud, if you're too joyous, then you need to be broken. You shouldn't be there. It's not your place. And those are the echoes that I found quite terrifying in the book. Well, talking of joy, because that is something that we know is actually radical. Black Joy is radical. Your third book deals with that. And your third book is, I know why the cage birds sings by Maya Angelou. This is such a spectacular piece of

literature. It's the first volume of seven books of autobiography by Dr. Maya Angelou, where she invokes her childhood with her grandmother in the American South of the 1930s. She faces discrimination, violence, extreme poverty, but also hope and joy and achievement and celebration. It's a coming-of-age story that illustrates how strength of character and a love of reading and literature can help overcome the most traumatic circumstances. It's considered one of the greatest books of the 20th century and one of the most quotable books of all time. Yeah. So tell me about when you first read it, what went through your mind?

I read it when I was about 18 or 19. And I was, at that time, I'd finished my A-levels. I was getting ready to go to university. And having some time off, I just wanted to read a book that really would inspire me to do the next stage of my life. And I'd heard of Maya, but I hadn't read many of her works. And someone said to me, if you're going to start somewhere, I start with this book. And again, I think the thing that really struck me is I've always loved language and the power of words.

And I think that they are not just empowering, but we have the ability to change hearts and minds. And that's what her book does. It takes you through her journey where she identified learning to love words, but not just that, the love of herself and kindness. and, you know, she also talks, I mean, she talks in the book about falling in love with William Shakespeare. So it's something that she herself discovers, and she talks about how she discovered other books and language. And she realized the power they had and how literature and words and language can actually overcome racism and trauma and really heal your soul. And so there is so much about this book. I've read it probably about 10 times.

And I intend to read it again and again. Oh, it do. Yes. I mean, it's an extraordinary book, but she was an extraordinary woman. And that's why I think this book, it's interesting because I haven't actually read the later volumes, her later autobiographies, but because I keep being drawn back to this. And I think it's probably because of the age she was and the age I was when I first read it, that draws me back to it.

But, you know, it's, yeah, there are so many echoes in it and reflections of my own life in it, that it gives me an, I don't know, it's really odd. I read it. And when I reread it, it makes me feel proud. Yeah. And I never met her. It's really odd because I've never met her. I didn't, well, I can't meet her now.

She's died. But, you know, I feel I know her and I feel proud of her for somebody I'd never met, which is a very strange feeling because not all books give me that sense of pride. But I feel, I just want to celebrate her. Angelou's words are poetry. she uplifts you and she makes you feel galvanized and ready to take on the world because joy can come from pain. I feel that.

I feel that so much. And we know that she spoke for so many black women. We know that black women are the most unprotected, most disrespected, most neglected people in America. But as a black woman in the UK, you were named most influential. You top the powerless of 100 people, which recognises those of African and Afro-Caribbean heritage in 2017. do you think it was harder for you to be visible in the spaces that you occupy? And how did you ensure that you went into those spaces with not just power, but also joy? Well, it's, I mean, my book, my book that I wrote call is called Rise is actually an ode to Maya.

Yeah. That's why I chose the title, you know, because she inspired so much. And I wanted to give back some of my life to hopefully inspire younger people, younger women in particular. And I've gotten the most beautiful messages, which is, you know, makes me feel very proud that I did that and I was able to do that. But when I won the most influential black person award, I got a huge amount of abuse from people saying, oh, but you're not black, you shouldn't win this.

That, you know, you're a brown woman and just doing these nuanced bits of hatred. And I thought, this is ridiculous. And I said, we are all the same and I'm really proud to have won it. And I'm really proud that I'm seen as somebody who can speak out against hatred and division. So I didn't see it about just being an award about being the most influential black person. But what I do think is important is throughout my life,

wherever I have found myself, I have stood up and tried to be an example of intellectual resilience as well as physical resilience and also act with grace and with kindness. Because I think if we can change other people's minds by being in the space and acting in a way that counters their view and their story of us, whoever we are, the others, then that is actually a good thing. And so I take the time to speak to those who don't agree with me, who would like to shut me out of spaces.

I'll deliberately go into those spaces because I do believe we can change people one at a time. And they then become the advocates who then change other people's minds. So I take the time to talk to people who disagree with me more than I spend time with people who agree with me. That's how we incite change. I remember hearing an interview with Maya Angelou herself actually from years and years and years ago. And she talked about the way her mother put her leg in the door

so that every other woman could step over and walk into the room. Yeah, I remember that interview. And to think that you've taken and still I rise in all the ways in which Maya Angelou has uplifted us and you've now written Rise and uplifted so many other. and taught them ways that they can also stand for what they believe in, what would be your message for the next generation of little black girls and little black boys who also want to enter that room that you've held the door open with your leg for?

One of the things I'm discovering with younger women is that there is a fear when it comes to the growth in the abuse online, offline as well, but particularly online, that they need to dim their lights, that they need to behave in a particular way. And I say absolutely not. don't let anyone tell you where you should be, how you should be, or what you should say. Be yourself and stand up and speak out for the things you believe in always. I'm going to take that advice as well.

We all need to hear it. Oh, the other one, the other little one, Pian, I don't know if you do this. But the other one I say to women is when you're knocking a door, do not let the first word out of your mouth be sorry. What are you sorry for? Oh my gosh, I do this. You know what? I literally did this the other day. A man bumped into me and I went,

Oh, sorry. And he said, oh, it's cool. I forgive you. And actually, I thought, why are you forgiving me? No, but if it's something women do, of all ages, when we knock on the door, we walk in the room, the first word we are conditioned to say is sorry. So consciously stop yourself saying sorry. Oh, I'm going to take your advice. Honestly, I say sorry so, so much. And also, no worries if not. Every email is like, can you do this? No worries if not. But actually, I am asking you for a reason. I need to done. Right. Let's, on that piece of advice, move on to your fourth bookshelfy book, which is a room of one's own by Virginia Woolf. This is an iconic extended essay

first published in 1929, based on two lectures. Wolf delivered in October 1928 at three separate women's colleges in which Wolf stated that a woman must have money and a room of her own if she is to write fiction. The book works on many metaphorical levels to explore social injustices

and limits on women's freedom of expression. It's considered a classic feminist text, a passionate assertion for female creativity and independence in a world dominated by men. Tell us about this book. Why has it made it onto your list? A room of one's own that the Virginia Woolf book was given to me when I was 16. I just finished my O levels, which are sort of precursor to GCSEs. And I think my teacher had already this sort of identified that I was going to be an activist and that I was going to have to learn how to operate in a matriarchal society.

But the book is, there are many levels. I mean, I love this book. One is, gosh, the bravery in 1929 to be challenging the issues of education for women, women having financial independence was extraordinary. And I think, you know, Wolf was radical and brave, but again, did it with grace and with dignity. But also the idea that this, I think during lockdown, we experienced this as women, is that we do need a space of our own. We do need a place to think and to reflect and to discover our own power. And so I think that metaphor is still true today, even though the book was written in 1929.

But I think the other thing that's really quite shocking about this book I find when I reflect on it is that it's 93 years later. And we're still talking about female financial equality, the gender gap, having, you know, being able to have equal lives and equal ambitions and operate as equals in professions. I mean, I think it's a terrible indictment that we're still talking about these issues so many years later. later. We do still talk about that narrative day in, day out. One particularly pertinent strand of which is that women have to choose between their career and motherhood, which of course you haven't had to do or have you. How did you negotiate that space? I hate using this word balance for, you know, work, studying motherhood, being a single parent, but essentially it is that. How did you navigate that?

I decided not to read books to tell me how to do it. That was the first thing. Because I think everyone's different and you've got to figure out what suits you best, the balance you want in your life. And I wanted children and everything. But then my plans were thrown up in the air and I thought I was being clever. And this is a thing. Life throws you curveballs when you least expect it.

So we've seen last week this Occampton report of what happened in the maternity wards around certain trust in the country. And it happened to me. I have a soon to be 34-year-old daughter who was starved of oxygen at birth. So I had to give up my ambitions to look after her. So, you know, she taught me an awful lot of things. Her emotional intelligence, her EQ is just extraordinary.

But it showed my work-life balance, if you want to call it, or the ambitions I had had to be put on hold so that I could look after her because she was going to be the best as she could. could be and I'd already decided that. So what I've done is, is I've taken her with me throughout my life and she hasn't helped me back. I just found ways of coping with my ambitions and with her. And that's what I think you have to do. If you give up on your dreams, then you are a lesser person and I think you're a lesser mother, you're a lesser wife. I think a lesser sister, a lesser friend.

I think you still have to pursue your ambitions, but find a way of accommodating it in a way that means you don't fail others. And so when I then had my youngest two children, I have a 15 and 16 year old now, I have told them exactly who I am. I don't airbrush my life. I tell them when I'm sad, I'm telling them when I'm not coping. I tell them who I am every day. And I think that allows us to have a better relationship and a better balance in our family because nobody's pretending to be somebody they're not. There's no story that I tell them that's different from the real story of me. There's no right way to be a mother. There's no right way to be a woman. I know that you've always been so committed to looking after your daughter and she's now moved into assisted living.

How hard was it to make that decision? Well, I made it very late because it wasn't until two years ago. And the irony again of life is that I finally took me about three years to put it all in place. and a week before she was supposed to do to go into the accommodation, COVID happened. And the first lockdown happened. So she had to be at home after all that planning. So then I had to retell her why she was going in. It was a really tough period because she didn't understand. So she finally went in last July.

And it was tough. But it's so the right decision because she's so happy. And that's actually all that matters. I can't even begin to imagine how much. much wisdom there has been that you've passed on to your children, how much they've learned from you and how much growth that is just so beautifully, beautifully instilled in them. I'm going to ask you a really hard question now. If you had to choose, because you've just got the best list, if you had to choose one book from your list as your favourite, Gina, which one would it be and why? I would, I want to

say, I know why the caged bird sings, but I'm not going to say that. I'm going to say the art of war for women. The reason I'm going to say that is because I still have quite a lot of battles to fight. And I've launched a new political party called the true and fair party because I want to fight for my country. I think people do need a political choice that takes us to a better future. So I need to be alert and have every bit of my strategy and my strength and my wits about me. So I'm going to say for the next battle ahead, I need to have the art of war for women under my pillow every night. We're talking of being alert and strong, Gina. You are the most alert and strong woman I have ever had the pleasure of speaking to. Thank you so, so much. I feel inspired,

and I'm sure our listeners do too. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Please rate and review this podcast. It's the easiest way to help spread the word about the female talent you've heard about today. The Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next time. Star Wars Andor, streaming exclusively on Disney Plus. Cassian Ander, Empire is choking us. I need all the heroes I can get.

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