Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S5 Ep20: Bookshelfie: Cherry Healey

Episode Date: January 26, 2023

Broadcaster Cherry Healey brings in books that spark discussions on the perimenopause, divorce, sibling bonds, feminism and the art of manifesting.  Cherry Healey started her onscreen career as a presenter for numerous lifestyle documentaries for BBC Three focusing on her own life - Cherry Gets Married, Cherry Has a Baby and Cherry Gets Pierced, to name just a few.  She now presents Inside the Factory and 10 Years Younger in 10 Days. In 2022 Cherry launched a series with Channel 5, Women’s Health Uncovered, which explored the ‘secrets and taboos’ surrounding women’s bodies.  Cherry’s book choices are:  ** Three Sisters by Heather Morris ** We Should All Be Feminists by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie ** Glennon Doyle by Untamed ** Hormone Repair Manual by Lara Briden ** The Law of Attraction by Esther Hicks Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season five of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of Season Five? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve. Today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com. slash Toronto. So I once met

Chimamanda at an event. Oh my God. Honestly, it was such a wonderful thing. And I had to try and hide my fan girl status. And we talked about kids and she just had a kid.

And we almost set up a playday. And I just want to let you know that that she and I'm nearly best friend. And I let that. Listen, I'm still available. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our

perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope and I'm your host for Season 5 of the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. The podcasts that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. We have a phenomenal lineup of guests and I guarantee you'll be taken away plenty of reading recommendations. Today I am delighted to welcome my guest Cherry Healy. Cherry is a household name, and she started her on-screen career with numerous lifestyle documentaries for BBC 3, focusing on her own life.

Cherry gets married, Cherry has a baby, and Cherry gets pierced to name just a few. She now presents Inside the Factory and 10 years younger in 10 days. In 2022, Cherry launched a series with Channel 5 called Women's Health Uncovered, which explored the secrets and taboos surrounding with. women's bodies. Welcome to the podcast, Cherry. Thank you, Vic. How are you? It's lovely to be here. Well, I'm very, very good and I'm very, very impressed because you're sitting in front of me with books of notes. You've brought the novels we're going to be talking about. Is this revision? I'm such a goody tushies. And all I really want is people think I'm cool. Like, I've got a nose ring,

right? I'm cool. You have got a nose ring, right? I'm cool. I've got a nose ring. Right? I'm cool. But actually, I'm so uncool and I'm a real spot. And so, yes, I've got notes. I've got synopsies. and I bought the books with me, bar one, because I gave one of them to my daughter. So, yes, I've come prepared. I love this. It's because I respect your time, Vic, and I respect this podcast.

Here I am. No, I can say to you, no one's ever done that before. Really? I know of. I mean, we've done a few on Zoom, so there's a good chance they could have had notes up on their computer,

but I've never seen anyone bring theirness. What was the research process like? Can I just say, do I get an A-star? Yeah. Or some kind of laminated certificate? I don't have a laminated, but I can, I mean, we're in East London. I'm sure there's a...

I'm sure there's a... I'm sure there'll be some shop that does it. You know it. Pop in soon. The research process was stressful, if I'm honest. Why is that? Because when I first sent you the list, I sent you, I wasn't at home. I was away for work. And I thought back into my years and I thought, okay, there are some books that have really changed me, but much in a much more academic, cerebral way. And so I sent you that list and I got home and I looked at my bookshelf and I thought, oh, it's too late to change. these beautiful books that have truly and profoundly changed me in every way, psychologically, emotionally,

and some of them actually have encouraged me to change my life in a really huge, practical way. And they were just staring at me and they were saying, I can't believe we're not on your list. And you've chosen ones that make you sound like clever. I chose ones for my ego, not from my heart and intuition. And so they got deleted and I sent you a new list. And I thought, please, I hope Vic hasn't done loads. of prep and you very, very kindly let me change to books that don't make me sound cool or like the cleverest person in the room, but are really like the ones that have really

changed my life. Well, this podcast is not about trying to sound cool or clever. It's about the books that have shaped you that have shaped your life. And it's interesting because we look back sometimes and think of these books that we love. I know what my favorite books are. And often I couldn't tell you a thing about them. I couldn't tell you what they're about, give you a blur, give you synopsis, but I know I love them. And actually it's because they're from my past. They shaped me then, but the books that shape me now are so different. And they're not about proving anything to anyone but myself. And I feel like the books that you've brought today are very much for you. Absolutely. I mean, there are some books that will have a timeless

meaning forever. And one of the books on my list was Silas Manor and that's about a miser who takes on a small girl and he starts to value her love and her time more than he does his wealth. And that has timeless meaning for me to find beauty and wealth and value in people and regardless of their status or their money, which changes, but to value them as individuals because of just who they are and the gorgeous pot of gold inside them. So that is a really important book for me. But I can't talk about that. It's not on my list. I snuck it in though. No, but now we know. And you know what? There's no hard. And fastball, there is a hard and fast rule.

It's five books. But if you want to drop some other... I just dropped some other names. That's a really important book to me. And I remember reading at school and feeling like that was a nugget. It had nuggety goodness in it. But it's a long time ago. And there are ones that I've read more recently that have done more for my life.

Well, looking back over the years from the books that you read as a child and that impacted and influenced you then to the books that really mean the world now, How have your reading habits changed? How have the books that you gravitate towards changed? Really interesting question. Oh, what a great question. Okay, so I was obsessed with God from the ages of about 18 till, well, I still am, but really intensely from the ages of 16, 18 till I was about 25.

You religious? No, I'm not. I don't have, I don't wear the jacket of any religion, but I believe very strongly in God. and I think about it all the time constantly, like all the time. Why are we here? What are we doing? What's our value? What's our purpose?

What are we supposed to be doing with our lives? And so I think about that a lot. And in my 20s and late teens, it was really, really intense. And I went to all sorts of lectures in funny basements in all over London. And I went to everything. It was insatiable. And I read every book I could get my hands on to about philosophy from all the different religions. and I went to a Christian church while

I kind of tried being a born again Christian for a while because obviously if you want to exercise a muscle and I had a really big spiritual muscle I wanted to exercise where do you go? You go to your local gym and in this country the religion is Christianity so I went to the Christian gym to exercise my spiritual muscle

but I couldn't make peace with theology it can be quite like I'm sorry I really respect the religion can I just say really huge and I learned lots from it and it was a beautiful time my life but it's not very female focused. Twelve disciples, all men, the only women in it are, one was non-consensually impregnated and the other one.

Well, listen, I won't go into it, but essentially I found I couldn't make peace with theology. So I didn't continue. I loved the people there and they talked me about prayer and worship and thinking outside of ourselves and how to deal with the ego. And I really had such a depth of experience there about how to, also how to, how to, what to do with that spiritual feeling, right? It's like you can fall in love with someone, but you don't know how to love them. And I learned how to deal with that.

So those are the books I read obsessively. And then... And the Christian gym. And the Christian gym. And now I'm in a gym of my own. Right. I don't have other people's equipment. I've got my own equipment that I've learned during that decade.

So now I have like a spiritual practice that I do and it's really perfect for me. And it has a my theology that makes sense to me. and I feel like I understand God in a way that makes sense to me. But I know that that decade allowed me to have those thoughts. I would never change it frankly. It's like when you go to the gym, you only really need a trainer for a couple of sessions. And then you've got the tools.

And then I dip back into the gym and I'm like, oh, can you teach me a couple of exercises? And I read a new book or I think I talk to someone else and I listen to their opinions. And that gives me another exercise. Yeah, you get it. Yeah, I can see you get it. I can see you get it.

I totally get it. And what I also totally get is wanting to see how it plays out in situ. I remember actually after losing a friend being so devastated and so bereft and so lost, I didn't know where to turn. I couldn't make sense of it. So I went to church. And it was not something that I thought to do since I was a child. I didn't care to do.

And yet I needed to look somewhere for the tools. to help me navigate these things I was feeling. And that was the only place that seemed to make sense. Did it help? Did you find something? Yeah, I found something. I didn't actually go back. I didn't feel like I needed to go back.

Do you know what that was? I mean, these things are so hard to articulate because they're so abstract. But do you, what was it that you found that helped you? I think there was a solace. I think it was hope that was so potent in that space that it imbued me. Ask of me, I just needed it then. I don't need it now, but I needed it then. Yes, absolutely.

I unfortunately think that religion has really killed or has really turned people off to God in this country. I mean, you know, it's such a shame because it gives me so much every day. It gives me perspective and hope and joy. And it takes me out of myself and takes me deep into myself. And when I read books about other people's experience of God, and really old text, you know, monks from many centuries ago, and they talk about those feelings. So, you know, there's this idea that if you have a spiritual practice

and you don't go to church, that you're this new age, no, you're not. Christianity didn't invent morality. Christianity didn't invent spirituality. Women were wailing in the woods a long time before we had a set religion that you had to follow. And there was a god with wrath. Oh, wrath! I hate wrath.

Roth is shit. I don't know if we'll answer to her on this podcast. You can say it. Okay, fine. Whereas, yeah, I mean, you know, women have been following their intuition and instincts and emotions and wisdom for many years before we had any kind of organised religion. Well, they've also been writing books. They have. I actually think that that theme that I've just talked about is probably the headline for every single book is about finding your true self and finding.

And actually, when I was doing my notes, like a total spree. part. I was thinking there's a really connective muscle through all of these books and that's freedom. It's for freedom from what people tell you should be and work, eat, sleep, repeat. What else is there? And surely I'm built for something more to experience something that's more elevated. And I think every single one of these books touches on that. Well, let's talk about your first book, Shelfy book, which is Three Sisters. Oh, that's the one at the top of the pile. Heather Morris is on the top of the file.

This novel concludes Morris's bestselling. the tattooist of Auschwitz trilogy with the fictionalized account of real life sisters held in the notorious death camp. It's a beautiful story of hope in the hardest of times and of finding love after loss. Tell us about this book. Why did it resonate for you? Okay. I'm really fascinated by stories of the Holocaust. I think there's a brick wall that my brain and my mind can get to where it just stops. I can't get over it. So I'm constantly fascinated in hearing people's stories of of their survival. And each book paints you a different picture.

It's almost like I'm trying to create a 3D image in every book I read paints a different side of it. But I know that I'll never be able to. I'm humble enough. It's not egotistical enough to think I'm ever going to really fully ever understand what that situation was. And it's not just the survivors per se. It was people who were, you know, the Nazis who were doing those terrible things.

Like how could those things have happened? And so she's the most wonderful, incredible writer. I think part of that is so she wrote a tattooist of Auschwitz and another one which I can't quite remember at the moment what it was. I'll remember it later when I'm probably on, you know, at home three in the morning. Anyway, so her brilliant, brilliant skill is she spends so much time researching these stories and listening. So these are all true stories. And this one particularly resonates with me.

I'm one of four children. I've got three brothers. And I love them all. I also want, I hate them often. You know, I will say annoying me loads. But, you know, we're really, really close. You're the same as me. No way.

You've got three brothers. Yeah. One of four. Yeah. Is that why we're so very charming? You have to, you have to, you have to, everyone's like, oh my God, you must be such a princess and get your way. I'm like, are you kidding me.

I didn't watch what I wanted to watch. I had to eat like a tiger. I had to fend for myself. Right. I had to battle them off. We used to do WWE wrestling Until they got so much bigger I used to have this giant beanbag at home

In the shape of a burger And their favourite thing was to put me at the bottom of the burger And then to sit on me all together And I'd be like, I can't breathe But you know Also because they were all playing sport It was like either get involved Or be on your own

So I'm really good at cricket now So you kind of You once got hit in the back of the head With a turkey And sheltered the ground Knocked out by one of my brothers That's the type of pranks they used to play. You have to watch out, you get kicked to the back of the knees on the way up the stairs.

Right. So our peripheral vision is second to none, right? And also, I don't get offended. It's just water for ducks back. It does shape you massively. And these sisters, their survival really depended on their bond. So you've got three Slovakian sisters. You've got Sibi, who's 19, Magda, who's 17, and Olivia, who's 15.

And they ought to cut a long story. a beautiful, incredible, unbelievable story. And they end up in the concentration camp of Auschwitz. And the first to go are Sibby and Livia. So Livia, who's the youngest one, she's the first one to get drafted because Magda is in hospital. And so she gets drafted to go and work. They all think that they are going to work for the Germans.

So she goes. I mean, they all know something not good is happening, but no one knows quite what's happening. So she leaves and she's quite, she's the most delicate of all the sisters. And Sibby is much, much, probably more like me, kind of chopping wood, you know, in the forest. And she's much more boisterous and strong perhaps. And she says, I'm going with you. So they both go and their journey there is unbelievably difficult.

And then Magda gets arrested. and she gets taken to the camp and they get reunited in the camp and this story is of how they survive and then when the Nazis are being defeated and they realise that they're losing the war they sent all of the concentration, people in the concentration camp,

they sent them out on these things called death marches which is where they didn't really not to do with them, they didn't want them in the camp because obviously the implications of that. So they sent them out and it's freezing cold, the snow on the ground, and these people just have to walk and walk and walk and walk and they've got armed guards with them so if you stop or fall down your shot and this is after everything they've endured so they are

emotionally physically spiritually very very weak and at their end at the end of themselves and these sisters metaphorically hold each other's hands throughout the entire stay in the camp and through these death marches and when one is weak the others are strong and when the others and every single point one of them wants to give up and wants to die. And they witness horrendous things. They witness people being shot, you know, point blank range in front of them. And each of them witness and have to go through horrendous things. But it's this bond between them that is so unbelievably powerful.

And it saves them. It absolutely saves them. And they survive. So powerful. I love my brothers and I love my family very, very, very much. But I think as you get older, well, for me, I don't know how it is for you, especially coming from a large family. I value them more and more every day. And I think that's, I wonder what it is for you. But for me, I think it's a case of as you get older, I've always been a really optimistic person.

I always feel like good things are going to happen. and but as you get older you realize that life can be it is very tough and it can bad things can happen to good people and scary things happen quite quickly and it can be quite deficit and so so that it's not that I'm less optimistic but I understand that having people around you that will hold your hand through difficult things obviously I'm not suggesting I've gone through anything like these sisters have but reading that story and the power of that bond I mean I would I would do a lot to to make make sure that that bond between me and my brothers stays true and you have to get over arguments quickly and you have to make time for each other and you have to vest at each other and you have

to traips across the country to go and spend time with each other but you know that that bond isn't there unless you try and as I get older my investment in my family gets more and more it gets more and more passionate I think yeah I realized I was doing um just one of those silly interviews that you do sometimes for um magazines and stuff and they said oh what you most proud of. And I found myself saying very, very naturally, the thing I'm most proud of is the relationship I have of my brothers. And I didn't realize until I said it.

And I was like, and it is. Oh my gosh, it really is because thank God. I'm so glad. I'm so lucky. I'm so grateful that I have these three gentlemen who are my support network, my best friends, who are so lovely. They're the loveliest people. And they're always there for me.

it's the most special, the most important thing. And you're right in the same way that in this book, there is hope. There is hope in the darkest of times. I feel like literally, my brothers who are the wars who hopes. They are the hope in the darkest of times. Oh, that's so great. They are the hoops.

But they are because you can't buy that. And I'm very aware of how privileged I am to come from a big family because it shapes my view. And when I wake up in the morning, I know that there is a safety net there of sorts. Now it's it's not something you can buy in a shop. It's not something you can magic up. And that's where I think that this story is really important and powerful because the thing that saved them, the thing that brought them joy, the thing that made them laugh in really dark times, the reason they survived was not because of a beautiful designer handbag or because they weighed a certain amount or because they lived in a certain place or because they have numbers after their name or letters after their name.

No one has numbers off their name except robots. Sorry. Or like aristocrats, there's something the food. Oh, yeah. Oh, thank you so much. Oh, I'm into you. So it's, you know, the things that often society values that you can go and buy in Selfridges are not the really important things.

But you can't sell this so you don't get advertised this. And, you know, the Matrix doesn't sell you. Can't sell you this. So it sells you bags and products and all those wonderful things that are super fun. But this is the really. granular, good stuff. Baileys is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women,

celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Looking for a treat to pair with your favourite book, Bailey's is the perfect accompaniment to enjoy either over ice or over coffee. Let's move on to your second book, Shelfy book now, which is, we should all be feminists by Jamanda. And Ghosie Adjee, yes. No, definitely great.

I just put this, I've just said I moved house and put my books on my shelf. And it brought me great joy to put this on my shelf because I couldn't find it before because it's so thin. Yeah. And I found it. And now I know where it is. This is a powerful and personal essay from Women's Prize winner, Chimimamanda and Gossi Adichie. Based on her 2013 TEDx talk of the same name. Adichie asks, what does feminism mean today?

And sets out her hopes and ambitions for a better, fairer worlds. What did you love about this? Everything. Every single, do you know what's so great about? It's kind of an essay, you know, it's an essay. And it's so pithy and full of positivity and hope. And there is not a wasted word in this book. The word economy is.

It's so brilliant. The reason I don't have a copy here is I've given it to my daughter who's just turned 13. Which is so important. I'm so glad you've done that. Big tick. Big mom tick. You know what? I was on the train a few years ago and I saw a young boy who I found out because I asked him was 14 years old and he was reading it.

I was sitting opposite him, a young boy. And I cried because I was so happy to see it. We love to see it. And he was just reading it. I was like, oh, is that from school? No, no, I just thought I should read it. Which is actually the most perfect bridge. Thank you so much.

That's a pro. Perfect bridge into what this book is about. which is we should all be feminist. And the story, the essay begins with her story of when she's 14 and she's with her male friend and they're talking about books and novels. And he turns to her and says, he says, you're a feminist.

And she writes in her book that it was like hearing the phrase, you're a supporter of terrorism. It wasn't, not a compliment. And so she went on this journey to find out what a feminist is. And she said she went, oh, and she, there's a, there's a, great quote. It says, I should never, I felt like I should never have called myself a feminist since feminists are women who are unhappy because they cannot find husbands. Well, that's honestly, when I was little, that's sort of what I thought. It just meant

burning your bra. Absolutely. It's angry. It has a lot of baggage and I do believe that we should reclaim the word because it's an important word. And I think we have and we are. Well, we are very much so. So she went on this journey and she said, okay, well, look, I'm a happy feminist. And she's Nigerian and she's an academic. So she went, on a big journey she spoke to lots of people and she came to the conclusion that she had to call herself a happy African feminist because feminism was un-African.

So she said, no, no, no, I'm very pro-African culture and society. I'm a happy African. And then she went on to speak to other people and they were like, oh, well, you must hate men. So she said, okay, well, I'm a happy African woman who loves men. They were like, yeah, but a feminist don't wear lip gloss and high heels. And she was like, okay, fine. So she then called herself and obviously tongue in cheek.

She said, I'm a happy African feminist who does not hate men and who likes to wear lip gloss and high heels for herself and not for men. So obviously she's, I mean, what's so great is she's really funny and she's joyful and she paints a really interesting picture of what it is to be a feminist and about the gender differences. And she says, look, we are different, we are different, we're different, men and women have we different hormones, different sexual organs, different biological. and that needs to be understood, of course. We're not saying that we're the same. Equality does not mean the same. It just means equal value. And 52% of the world's population is female,

but the power very much lands in the male hands. And that's what we need to address. But we don't need to lose our femininity and our power in who we are. So, yes, and she talks about having to unlearn all the internalized lessons of what it is to be a woman, right? we're supposed to be quiet and constantly happy and constantly peaceful and we're supposed to look after the home and listen we can be all those things but we can also be so many other things and there's a bit that I really want to talk about which is and I thought this was really clever and it was sorry I'm looking through my nose but this is really important okay this is really

important this is one of my favourite bits in the whole book and it says and I'm going to quote her directly so that I don't get accused of trying to steal her brilliant because I mean I can't The person more qualified to lead is not physically stronger. It's not a physically stronger person now because it used to be right. So it used to be the most physically strong person. That's how the world worked, but that's not how it works anymore. It is now the more intelligent, this is her. This is the more intelligent, more knowledgeable, more creative and more innovative.

There are no hormones for those attributes. A man is as likely as a woman to be intelligent, innovative, creative. We have evolved, but our ideas of gender have not evolved very much. So we need to unlearn what we've been told. And I have so much internalised misogyny in me. I look at a man and I think he's going to save me and he's better at me and he's a better leader. I have that inside me and that's okay. It's important for us to admit that because we've been taught about.

But we have to try and unpick it, which is really, really difficult. Did you grow up in a feminist household? Yes. In a way. My mom is amazing. She's divine. She's heaven. She's wonderful.

she's a feminist in that she believes she speaks her mind and she's intelligent and thoughtful maybe perhaps she didn't leave a feminist life she wasn't encouraged to work she wasn't encouraged to um do anything other than have babies and get married and i know that she would i know we she and i've talked about this endlessly that put in a really difficult position later in life when things went wrong with the men she was with in various ways and that really left a high and dry and i know that she really was very passionate about me being financially independent and not relying on someone else. It doesn't mean that I don't want to be looked after. Like, stroke my head and make me dinner. And I love looking after it. I love cooking and I love. I very much fall into my feminine energy

when I'm at home and I love to cook and I love to keep the house tidy. And so I love all of those things. And I want someone to look after me and care for me and ask me how my day was and care for me but I I want that to be an equal transaction yeah I I thought for so long that it it couldn't be it couldn't be in line with my my being a feminist and it absolutely can I too I love being did you do you grow up in a feminist household um I guess yes I guess I did but I think I didn't understand the potential for intersectionality in feminism which is And I was seeing my mum's feminism, and it didn't seem the same as the feminism that I'd read about. And that is because my mum was, like Amanda Ngozijicay, a happy African feminist who likes to wear a gloves and loves a man.

And so I didn't quite understand that she was too a family. And she absolutely is because she is powerful and she is spirited and she is joyful, which is radical for a black woman. woman in the north of England in the 80s her joy is radical and it's political um so i've learned a lot without realizing i was learning it do you think she chose that consciously or is that innately in her is that her upbringing there's a bit of both there's a bit of both think when you grow up to because my mum is actually exactly the same as jimmand and gosidice in so many ways so half the yellow son which is about um the baffirn war that's what my mom grew up during she grew up running away from air raids and being fed by the british red cross and being the housing soldiers i didn't understand what

she'd went through, what she'd gone through until I read that book and it was, I was given a bit of context. And I feel like her coming to this country and making a life for herself, that's a bold and powerful thing to have been able to do, to have a family who are happy, healthy and safe. That is a bold and powerful thing to do. I love to Amanda Gossi D.J. because she tells a story of my culture and my heritage, my history and I come to understand it through that. And so when I read, we should all be feminist, a lot of things fell into place about what my feminism could be. So I love this book. So you need, you need as you're growing up, we need lots of different examples. So lots of different women expressing their feminism in lots of

different ways. Exactly. And that's what I think she does so well is she doesn't, it's not dogmatic. It's not like this is what a feminist should look like and this is what you need to be doing. And these are the politics of being a feminist. Like your mum is joyful, wonderful. And she's obviously and beauty, that, and she's also been incredibly brave and made some incredibly balsy decisions. And so it doesn't need to look, that narrative doesn't need to look at one way. It can look in so many different ways. And you can, you can be as feminine or as masculine as you wish, but it's about being, feeling like women and men have equal value on the earth. Just quickly, how does your feminism play a role in how you parent? Yeah, really powerfully,

I think. I have the daughter and a son. So my daughter's 13 and my son is, nine and they're both like little gorgeous peaches they're heaven and they are i feel lucky because i really like them as people so i feel really lucky about that um and i want to make sure that i'm talking to them both about feminism in with equal gusto yes and i hope that they've grown up to see someone who has a um i'm i have a masculine energy at work i'm i'm ambitious i'm financially ambitious I hope nor I'm not you know

I have like real gusto and passion in that and then at home I have a I sink into my feminine energy and I hope that my daughter will be able to see that you can do those two things and also my son when if he if he wants to be with a woman

and choose a woman choose a woman choose a you must choose a woman well no do you know what about that I'm choosing right both of them I'm choosing for both of them. Thank you. I've said to them both. I said, I'd get three vetoes throughout your life, all right? But I hope that they see someone loving life and being able to use their brain and ask questions

and earn money and all the rich, wonderful things that come with that, because money gives you choice and independence. Well, I love that your daughter's reading, we should all be feminist and I'm excited for your son to read it too. I once met Chimamanda at an event. Oh, my God. Oh, come. was such a wonderful thing. And I had to try and hide my fan girl status. And we talked about kids and she just had a kid. And we almost set up a play day.

And I just want to let you know that, that she and I'm nearly best friends. And I let that. Listen, I'm still available. She might. She was our winner of winners of the women's prize. So of all the 25 books that have won,

she was at the top. I think she would definitely listen to it. So she will. Yeah. But it's very difficult because, you know, you don't, I don't really get a fan girl by lots of people. You know, I just love people for their peopleliness. But I was, I was, yeah, she's pretty, it's pretty cool. Well, if it does happen, please can I join?

Yes, 100%. Thank you very much. Your third book that you've brought today is untamed by Glennon Doyle. The tagline to this book is stop pleasing, start living. And that is exactly what New York Times bestselling author and activist Glennon Doyle sets out to help her readers to do. Doz blend of memoir and personal development guide is packed full of energizing advice on how to overcome conformity and embrace your best life. Can you tell us why you picked this book? When did you first read it? Because it's the best book you're having to read in your entire life.

Like absolutely heaven. So this is, I think, one of the most influential books of my life. And I left it off. This is the one that looked to me on the shelf when I got to be kidding me. Come on. Yeah. Are you leaving me behind? So, yes. So this book, gosh, how to, I feel sick even just like trying to sum this book up in words. So I read this when I was, I was newly divorced. And getting divorced is very powerful experience in lots of ways. But it also makes you feel unbelievably naked and vulnerable.

And someone once wrote, it's like throwing all of your life, every part of your life up into the air. and little bits land in different places. Like your friends change, your ideas about yourself change, people's idea of you change. Suddenly people who've invited you to couples parties don't want you there anymore because you're not a couple, you don't fit into the lemon tart routine. You know what I'm saying.

So, you know, everything in your life changes, your logistics change, you know, your desperate desire to... And also, you know, we have such an interesting idea about divorce in this country. When marriage was invented, it was an economic and social... agreement between a man and woman because women didn't work, men did. So it was an agreement. And that just doesn't exist anymore. We don't have that societal dynamic anymore. So we say to someone, when we're 20, whatever, I will be with you forever. And we put on a nice dress and we

stand in front of everyone we know and lots of people we don't know. Someone in a dress at the beginning, you know, at the front of the church blesses us. And often we don't even, people don't and believe in God. So it's all just, I mean, you know, I love a wedding. Invite me to your weddings. I love them. I'm really good fun at a wedding. But they're quite silly.

And we used to live until next Tuesday, right? I'll, I will marry you and I will be with you for the rest of our lives. Okay. I died of it like UTI next Tuesday. Okay, women died in childbirth all the time. So you didn't live for how long we live now. How long do we live now? I mean, if we're lucky, what, six, six decades with Jeff?

It's a long old time. Yeah, Jeff, I'm going to marry and be with you for six decades and we're not going to change as people or evolve and grow. So it's quite amazing when you decide that you're different to the person you thought you were or the person you're with isn't quite the person you thought they were. And you go, look, we're going to go our separate ways. And society goes, oh my God, I can't believe it. Oh, it's a bad thing. It's a shock. I was divorced and it took me three years to decide about what to do because I knew it wasn't the right relationship.

And this book really helped me to rediscover myself. And it's all about discovering your true self, your intuition. And she covers these four pathways. Let me talk about the beginning of the book because it really sets it out. So she talks about feeling caged by society's expectations of us, about being pleasing and quiet and feminine and vulnerable and weak as women. and she was a drug addict and she got divorced and this is all about her rebuilding her life

and reconnecting with herself. And she went to a zoo and she sees a cheetah. And the cheetah has been trained by the zookeepers to chase a teddy bear attached to a stick. And the cheetah thinks this is life and thinks this is prey and is kind of half-heartedly chasing this teddy bear and she watches this scenario. And she's like, that's how I feel.

I feel like there's so much more in me. I have so much more potential. There's a wildness in me that's been stuffed, stuff down and told to shut up. And there's something in me that needs to come out. She watches the cheater and she really relates to it and she realizes that she's been programmed in the same way that that cheater's been in captivity.

And so she's like, well, how do I break free of my own mental prison? So she goes through this huge journey and the story is the fact, is the story is incredible, but it's also, she's always encouraging you to think. It's not preachy. It's not a preachy self-help book. She's not pretending to be a guru as well. I think sometimes with, I've heard so much self-help, you know, over my obsession. And I worry about this idea of people thinking their self-proclaimed gurus.

So I always kind of watch out a little bit for that. It's very easy for people. If you've got something to share, it's quite difficult for people not slip into the guru. dynamic and I think she does it really beautifully she stays really humble and she wants to share her share her learnings with you but she never falls into the guru mentality which I appreciated when I read it and that's what I loved her for that I fell in like completely madly fell in love with her and she's on Instagram everyone and she does daily awesomeness so um so the four pathways that she recognized on this journey are this the first pathway is embracing your emotion emotion

is our guide. Don't be scared of it. Fear is a really important emotion. Don't be scared of that. And we've lost our connection to our instincts. Our emotions are the flags. So don't be afraid of sadness either. It's a note to shift course.

Our brains are supposed to feel everything. It's just how we navigate them. A healthy person can feel the sadness as well as the happiness. It's okay. You said your mum was full of joy. Do you think she's helped you? Do you see me as, do you strike me as someone who's in touch with your intuition and your emotions?

Is that, do you think that's come from your mum? In part. Yeah. In part. Um, I think it's something that's developed over the years, though, through lots of therapy, which I'm not afraid to admit at all because God bless it. God bless it. Like, um, I think I thought I was always supposed to be happy, actually.

Yeah. But I've learned how to be sad well. How do you be sad well? Because it's, that's a really hard thing to do. I don't have an answer. But it's really hard, but it's a really interesting exercise to try and learn it. It comes from a place of knowing what I can and can't control for sure, knowing that whether I'm sad for a reason that I can fix

or if I'm sad for a reason that I can't quite identify and maybe that's something that I need to. You know, it's almost just knowing that it's okay to be sad. It's okay. It does the trick or going, I'm scared of that. Wow, that is my internal, you know, cheerleader. I imagine you've got a group of women inside you going, no, no, absolutely not. Not today.

It would be good if we taught kids in school that it's okay to be sad, as opposed to them feeling sad and feeling embarrassed that they're sad or shamed that they're sad and they're not talking about it. If everyone knew that everyone can be, maybe we'd talk about it. Such a brilliant point. I completely agree. I was at the beach once with my son. Oh, he's just so scrumptiously yummy.

And he'd drawn this big tortoise. in the sand with a stick and another little kid came and stomped all over and he'd taken it he was so small and delicious at the time he wailed he burst into tears and someone came up and they were like trying to distract him and I was holding him and I was like

that's awful isn't it that's really sad and this person was going have some sweets oh just and they were like oh don't let him cry you're just encouraging it and I said no and I realized that there's two ways to process sadness there's one which is I'm going to shop or I'm going to have sex or I'm going to do this, whatever, I'm going to distract myself

as you're an adult. When you're a child, you need to learn that it's okay to be sad exactly as you were saying and you can cry and you can have a really good cry and there's no shame in it. So that when you're older, you don't distract yourself when you feel sad but you allow that feeling to come out and then it ends.

I think, yeah, I wish kids were taught it in school. Okay, so we've got Embrace Emotion. Number two, Pathway 2 is Embrace Intuition. I think we've talked about that. It's about learning to get really quiet. I heard the other day a great thing. They said we've forgotten how to be bored and boredom is where really good stuff happens.

And I agree, you know, whenever we're bored, we pick up our phone, we scroll. We listen to music. We listen to everything. And when I'm on the loo, I take my phone with me. I mean, I never give your mind of silence. So when do you listen to that insidey voice? When do you listen to that quiet voice?

When do you get really quick? It's actually quite scary. About three years ago, I decided I was going to get up early in the morning. So I've always been a night out. And I thought, it's taking me ages still. I now get up early and I love it and I get to bed super early. And I was going to get up early and I was going to sit and be really quiet in a quiet house. And having, you know, when my whole of my 30s was insane, you know, amazing and wonderful, but busy and kids.

And I think I was busy. And in my 40s, I thought, no, I'm going to get real quiet again and get in touch with myself and get really calm again. but for the first couple of weeks it was really scary and felt really weird the silence was deafening and I was in the kitchen and I was in the kitchen and on my own to take

and I feel like such a dick and and I don't know how to do I don't know how to be quiet and I forced myself to do it and now it's like delicious yeah then you love it and then you love it and it's delicious so

embracing your intuition you cannot listen to yourself you cannot find guidance until you shut the fuck up yeah oh finding power in your own piece is incredible because then whenever you need it, you've got that. You can always go back.

Absolutely got it. And it becomes really yummy and delicious and like, yeah, I seek it out now. Embrace imagination. So again, I don't want to have demonised phones. My phone is the reason I can be a like active mom and, you know, I can do emails while I'm at the school gates and all these things.

So, you know, and I can, you know, do work and do my filming and all these things. So I love my phone. But don't, yeah, don't forget to put your phone away and think and imagine. and read and write, like, learn from other people and what their experiences are. Every book that I read broadens my horizon by another degree. And every time you talk to someone, you really sit and you listen to them. Your brain expands and your heart expands and your soul expands. So listen, read and sit and think.

And the other one is embrace deconstruction and reconstruction. So don't be afraid to take yourself apart and put yourself back together at different points in your life. After I got a divorce, I did that. I took myself apart and I put myself back together. when I was in my 20s and I was discovering God and spirituality and what that meant for me, I took myself apart and put myself back together. And I think I'll probably do that another couple of times throughout my life. I hope I will.

And it can be scary, but it was very exciting and you transform. So her book is amazing and it's all about finding who you are when you decide to maybe question all the rules. And she talks about re-reengaging with your wild self. And I'm going to drop another book in here really quickly. And there's another book she talks about women who run with the wall. wolves. It's by Clarissa Estes. And it's all about women who live on the fringe of society, not bound by its rules, and women who speak the truth. And I think we need to sometimes metaphorically go into the woods and howl at the moon and reconnect with our natural selves, reconnect with

nature and not always be neat and tidy and perfect. But it sometimes go a bit wild. Metaphorically, I would say also literally and physically, I... Absolutely. Sometimes I'd like to howl at the moon. Yeah. Oh my God. Great. Me too. Cherry, the fourth book that you brought with you today is Hormone Repair Manual by Lara Briden. The Hormone Repair Manual is a practical guide to feeling better in your 40s, 50s and beyond.

In it, naturopathic Dr. Laura Bryden explains how to navigate the changes of perimenopause and alleviate symptoms with treatments like diet, nutritional supplements and bioidentical hormone therapy. When did you read this book? How did it influence you? Now, I, about two years ago, I've always been a good sleeper.

I used to go to bed late and get up late. I now get up. I've, you know, tried to, it's been a process. But I now get up super early. But I've always slept well. About two years ago, maybe three years ago, I just struggled, start to struggle with sleep. I'd wake up at 4 in the morning with such bad anxiety.

And I changed so many things in my life. I stopped drinking. I stopped using my phone late at light. I stopped. I mean, I do drink wine now. But I went through a big period where I just cut it out because it was just messing with me. Well, I thought it was messing with me. And, you know, I have to say, I've massively decreased it now and it's been of joy.

But my sleep was still messed up. And I was still wake up before in the morning, in like wild, wild panic attacks. And I thought, what the hell is going on? I didn't really talk to anyone about it. And it was making, it was affecting my work. It was affecting my confidence. I was tired during the day. And also I just lost my sense of self completely.

And a year ago, I made a show for, for Channel 5 called Women's Health, Breaking the Taboos, and that was about all the things that we don't talk about, vaginaldine, gyneous, gynaecological problems, hormones, endometriosis, all these things that women almost have a secret covenant we don't talk about because, and menopause is a huge one. But we don't talk about it's perimenopause a lot. So perimenopause is the period before your period stop,

which is your menopause. And that can go on for 10 years. And women, you can, I mean, there's something like, 36 symptoms. And, you know, I tell my friends that I'm perimenopause and they'll go, no, you're not. That's ridiculous. You're doing that for attention. I'm like, well, I would.

I would do it for attention because that's me. But I'm not doing it for attention. So I spoke to all these experts and I made this show. Do, do, do do, do chitting for the telly and tap dancing for the telly. And it was only when I'd finished this show, talking to all these experts, I was sitting at home and I thought, oh my God, I'm peri-maniportal. I mean, that's ridiculous. So the fact that I'm, I have the privilege of talking to all these experts.

And it's only when I get home and everything's quiet and the show's over and we've done all the PR and it's all gone out. It's only then that I go, oh my God, that's me. So I change loads of things on my life. I take these fantastic supplements. I do not drink caffeine. I have coffee in the morning and that's it. I stop. I'm really careful about my alcohol intake.

My sleep routine is like elite. Elite. And it's massively helped hugely. And I will go and get HRT. are all going because you've got three hormones, progesterone, estrogen and testosterone, and this is what this book is teaching me. This is why this book is really a wonderful and every page that I turn I'm learning so many important things about my body because it's like the second puberty, right? When you're, you know, 13, 14, you go through a huge influx of hormones, your hair, your body,

every part of your body changes. It's huge and enormous and we all understand that. And we understand and we, you know, we make allowances for teenagers who might get really cross, you know, and the relationship with your mother changes. I want you, I don't want you, and we make allowances for that, and we're ready for it. And then when a woman hits 40, well, no, you get fired if you have a bit of brain fog, or you just don't get those contracts

because you've had a, you lose your sense of self or you haven't been able to sleep. You know, people get divorced all the time because you get, when estrogen goes, which is your happy hormone, you get unbelievably irritable. And people think, well, I hate my husband now and I hate my kids, I hate my life.

And they quit their jobs. and in a more extreme case, women kill themselves. So it's serious. And it's like coming off a drug. You know, estrogen, testosterone, they're the things that running through us. And women are cyclical, whereas men are linear. So when men, it's very difficult for a man to understand what it is like to be a woman and have these different cycles monthly.

And then also throughout our life. So when we hit 40, the exercise, the way we exercise needs to change. The way we drink needs to change. What we eat needs to change. And I know that sounds a bit intense, but like, oh, my God. Well, you either do or you. don't. You either learn about your body or you don't learn about your body, but it's going to happen one way or another. You're on that train, Susan, whether you'd like it or not.

And you can either go to the buffet and ask them what's on the menu, right? This book is teaching you what's on the menu. Like, okay, so what does it feel like when your progesterone goes, well, your sleep is affected and that's what's been happening to me. So I've tried all, and this, this book is fantastic. It gives loads of natural remedies, loads of lifestyle remedies. But then it also teaches you about HRT and what that really is. So HRT's got really bad reputation. because it used to be synthetic, which had problems. And it's now bioidentical, which means it's absolutely identical to the biological hormone that your body produces. So it's much, much safer.

But women often don't take it because I think there's problems. And they suffer for 10 years. I've met so many women who were on antidepressants for 10 years, said they were felt numb, no sex drive, didn't love their husband, struggled at work, for 10 years. when actually just a gel estrogen. Okay, gel. When I found out it was a gel, I thought, you got, what?

It's not this, I felt like it was this huge medical intervention, HRT, and women were scared of it, and it's always in the papers, and oh, it's a gel. You rub it on your freaking wrist. It's like, I'm moisture as mine to high body, top to bottom, every single day,

often twice a day, right? Like I'm putting on a wetsuit. I'm never not coated in a thick layer of butter. And this gel. I have no idea. Right? It's a gel and it transforms women's lives forever. It literally makes their 40s really good fun. I have to say I'm 42. So far 40s are a hoot. I'm having the best time my children are a bit more grown up. I feel very grateful to have them. I love and value my career. I have a home. I'm very, I feel very lucky. I'm not ready to hang up my hat. Thank you very much. Right. I'm first on the dance floor, last off the dance floor. There is no R&B song that I don't know the words too, okay? All right.

Not ready to get to sit at home and feel sad and like I've forgotten myself. And nor should you be. Right. So but these these things are not talked about. So women suffer and I'm really passionate about women talking about perimenopause because even a simple conversation with a woman can make her go, oh my God, that's what I suffer from. So anyone listening to this who's not having a great time who's kind of 38, 39, 14,

who's maybe been put on medication or hasn't just go and read the symptoms of perimenopause and it might just make sense and if your GP fobs you off go to a different GP in that practice and if they fob you off shout really loudly somewhere

it feels like it's always been a huge part of what motivates you helping women to feel better or understand themselves better in this work women's health on Channel 5 but also in the documentaries that I've watched for years and years and years. Did you watch them? Stop it. You didn't.

I mean, look, this is one of the reasons between you and Dawn. Yeah. That's why I wanted to work in television. I watched these documentaries and it made sense because it was stuff that you cared about, stuff that affected you. I got why you wanted to explore it. And that in turn was very helpful, not just to someone like aspiring to do similar,

but also to anyone watching who might want to learn about themselves. Well, that's just the best thing ever. I love that you watched them. I mean, I loved Dawn's shows as well. I thought they were amazing. And she's had such candor and she's such a joyful person. I loved watching them too. And that influenced me as well.

Well, we have to move on. I'm having a little moment, but we do have to move on. We have this Google Doc up for when we do these where our producers write, you need to move on that. You need to move on. And I'm being told you need to move on. So I will stop having that moment. I was just having.

It's your fifth and final book this week, which is The Law of Attraction by Esther Hicks. This book written by bestselling authors Esther Hicks and her husband, Jeremy Hicks, presents the omnipresent laws that govern the universe and teaches us how to make them work to our advantage. It's very powerful stuff. Why did you pick it?

All righty, everyone, buckle up. Okay, now listen, this book is amazing and wonderful one. I read it. It blew my mind, but it is, we need not just a pinch of salt, but you need to get just like a fist full of salt for this one, because there's some quite intense out there ideas in it. So I would say with every book about this thing called manifesting, law of attraction,

yeah, pinch of salt, right? Take what you want with it. I hugely, hugely believe in it. But so Esther Hicks was married to Jeremy Hicks. Jeremy has died and Esther is kind of carrying on their work. And she and he believed that they were translating messages from a non-physical entity called Abraham. Stick with it. Everyone. Hang in there. Everyone just, you know, close the window, lock the doors. So Hicks describes what she's doing as tapping into infinite intelligence. And what they talk about is the law of attraction. And that is how to create your reality.

So instead of just being a passenger seat in the bus, you're driving the bus every single day. And it's how you think. That's the deciding factor. So you're not just a flesh blob running around until you die. You actually have a lot of agency. And it's how to do that. And they talk about the three laws. So attracting, creating and allowing. And how to engage without law of attraction. So what does that mean?

So there are laws, right? There's law of gravity. And I'm not saying this is a science, but there is a thought that the law of attraction, is real and if you tap into it you can impact your life so we all vibrate everything vibrates thoughts vibrate and there's a natural flow which is you think something thought word and deed it's even in the bible i think somewhere thought word indeed so you have a thought and then you action it and then it happens and it's about teaching people that that's going to happen whether you have

input or not right you wake up in the morning you think oh it's a rubbish day and oh god susy is going to be, sorry Susan. She used a different name. Susan again. God, no. So Susan, I'm sorry, Susan. Oh, God, Susan's going to be difficult in the office and oh God, that meeting's going on. I'm really scared about that. She's perimenopause and she's not checking it out.

I'm going to send Susan on my book. So, you know, you can, you can, how you think can really impact your life and how it plays out and the mechanics of the universe and how your life rolls out in front of you. So it teaches you how to do that. Now, I have read a lot of these books that talk about law of attraction and manifesting. I mean, I've been doing it for 15 years. I was at work one day and I had this notepad which I've actually got here with me. I've always got a notepad with me.

And I've always got a notebook with me. Some are do lists and some are just lists of what I want in my life, right? And my boss was endlessly looking at me with this list and he was like, you're doing it wrong. And I was like, what? And he's called Matt. And he said, you're doing it wrong. You're writing your lists all wrong. And he taught me how to manifest.

He taught me about manifesting. This was way before I'd read any books or anything. So how do I write a list right? So he was like, you're writing in the future tense. You should write in the present tense. I was like, well, that sounds really wacky. And he's like, no, you write it in the, it increases. It's like putting a jetpack on everything you've written down.

And you feel like a real idiot. And there's a system of what you do to create a list written down of what you want to happen tomorrow this afternoon. like I wrote, I manifested before I came here this morning about how I wanted my energy to be and how I wanted the day to play out and what I want to happen to stuff noon and there's a system of how to do that

and I hate to plug my own thing but only because it's like if, so I teach manifesting and I teach how to live intentionally as a course not because I'm trying to like, it's not even because I want to make money it's because it's worked for me in the most profound way and it works I think especially for women I'm going to say because women are often not taught how to be powerful in their own life, right?

We're taught how to be many other things, but often not how to be really ambitious and ask for things because it's greedy, especially financial and we're not taught how to be financially ambitious about how to be really ambitious in our careers, we're in a really powerful way. So there's different stages. So there's things called self-limiting beliefs, and those are all the stories that we've picked up over the course of our life,

maybe education, maybe historical, maybe it's naturally within you. I'm too stupid. I'm not gorgeous enough. I don't have the right friends. I don't have the right. I don't have the right demographic. And it's about recognizing those and I'm picking that. And then we teach my business partner, Nat, we teach,

so I run a course with this wonderful woman called out. And we teach people how I get really, really quiet and to listen to intuition. And then, but these things sound so great in an Instagram meme, but they're actually really difficult to do. and then how to write an amazing list, a life-changing list of what you want. And so, yeah, the law of attraction is all about that about how to attract wonderful things into your life.

I also discovered manifesting last year. Oh, change my life. Have you put it into practice and has it helped you? Yes. Really? Oh, my God, you didn't even blink. You were like, yes, it does. Without a shadow of a doubt, on every level. Wow.

Like, professionally, romantically. Yeah. in just in how I feel, in setting my intention, my energy for the day, that really, really resonated with me because I feel exactly the same. There's something kinetic that happens when you write something down. There's something that happens between the brain and the hand. If you ask someone, tell me what you want. You know, you make something.

When someone writes in a full sentence physically writes, not on their keypad, but actually with their hand, people have integrity and they tell the truth to themselves because it's a pain in the ass writing, right? especially now because no one writes. Oh, it's dumb, I'm out of hand. I think it feels lovely. It feels beautiful. It feels beautiful.

It feels beautiful. But it means that you have to think about the beginning, the middle and the end. So you tell the truth to yourself. So you write what you really want. And you're left with this amazing kind of spellbook almost. Yeah, writing your lists in sentences with adjectives as well. Yes.

And be specific. Yeah, be very specific. I don't just need to buy a bowl. I need to buy a beautiful bowl to put my stones in that I found on the beach the other day. That's the one. And you found that it's impacted every different area of your life. Absolutely. Cherry, you said that the search for freedom is the thing that sort of links all of these books and these choices together.

So what does freedom look like for you now? It's emotional freedom. It's a freedom to really love myself outside of the expectations of others. It's a freedom to choose. It's a financial freedom. I think women, I think women, should be always encouraged to be nurtured and cared for, but financial freedom allows you to make choices when things go shit.

So I will always teach my daughter no matter how wealthy, or if her partner is wealthy or has any, to never stop learning, never stop improving professionally and never stop watching her finance ever. And yeah, emotionally spiritual freedom, continuing to get deeper and to understand myself and the world around me more because it's magical and it's exciting and it's where joy is and appreciating all the tiny little things and then really going for gold with the big things. I love that. If you had to choose just one book from

your list as a favourite, what? No, no. I reject this question. I'm well aware of the fact that you have five books here today, but there were others as well that were swapped in and out. This is going to be difficult. Which one would it be and why? Okay. I'm going purely off instinct. But I think it would have to be untamed by Glennon Doyle. And I think part of that is because it's, why is that? Why has it spoken to me? I mean, you can see this book has been read multiple times and there's, it's just, it's haggard and there's notes. Look, it's, there's notes. And there's like, and there's like, it's, there's like, it's like, it's, there's like, it's, it's just, it's all sorts. This book is easily digestible for everyone, there is something in it that is powerful and perception changing in it for everyone.

It is a beautiful story. She is not trying to be righteous. So it's so easy for your heart and to connect with it. She's a beautiful person. I've learned so much from her. And I suppose I also continue to learn from her. So yeah, her book is really life-changing. I can't thank you enough, Jerry. I've talked so much. I'm sorry. I'm So sorry. This is what this is. It's about, honestly, it's been, it's been so illuminating. I cannot wait to get stuck into every single one of the books that you've spoken about today.

And I just really, really appreciate the depth and the insight that you've given. It's been lovely to get into your mind. I just loved every second. I love the research. I've loved talking to you. It's just been an absolute joy. Thank you. I'm Vic Hope.

And you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction, podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.