Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S5 Ep21: Bookshelfie: Gillian Anderson

Episode Date: February 2, 2023

Gillian Anderson is an award-winning film, television and theatre actor, producer, activist and author who rose to international fame playing FBI Special Agent Dana Scully in The X-Files. She has had countless notable roles - from Lady Dedlock in Bleak House, Margaret Thatcher in The Crown to DSU Stella Gibson in the BBC crime series The Fall,  sex therapist Jean Milburn in Sex Education and most recently Mrs Marquis in Netflix’s gothic-horror film The Pale Blue Eye with Christian Bale. Her extensive acting accolades include an Emmy Award and a Golden Globe, plus in 2016 Anderson was appointed an honorary OBE. She’s just become a War Child ambassador and has also recently launched her own Curio podcast “What Do I Know?!”.  Her new project, Dear Gillian - inspired by one of her book choices - is inviting letters from all women to reveal their secret fantasies, and be a part of an inclusive, intersectional new book on what it means to be a woman in the twenty first century. Head to www.deargillian.com to submit yours! Gillian’s book choices are:  ** My Secret Garden by Nancy Friday ** Sorrow and Bliss by Meg Mason ** Three Women by Lisa Taddeo ** Such a Fun Age by Kiley Reid ** The Salt Path by Raynor Winn Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season five of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women. Don’t want to miss the rest of Season Five? Listen and subscribe now! This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve. Today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com.com. slash Toronto. What did you learn about sex

from filming sex education from playing Dr. June Milbert? Well, you know, I don't have much to learn in the sexual arena. I'm joking. I'm sorry. I could. How could I know that?

With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope and I'm your host for Season 5

of the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. The podcasts that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. We have a phenomenal lineup of guests and I guarantee you'll be taken away plenty of reading recommendations. Our guest today is Jillian Anderson,

an award-winning film, television and theatre actor, producer, activist and author who rose to international fame playing FBI special agent Dana Scully in The X-Files. She's had countless notable roles from Lady Deadlock in Bleak House, Margaret Thatcher in the Crown, to DSU Stella Gibson in the BBC Crime Series The Fall, sex therapist Gene Milvan in sex education, and most recently Mrs Markwis, in Netflix's gothic horror film The Pale Blue Eye with Christian Bale. Her extensive accolades include a primetime Emmy. Award, a Golden Globe Award, two Screen Actors Guild Awards, and an Evening Standard Theatre

Award. Plus, in 2016, Anderson was appointed an honorary OBE. She's just become a War Child Ambassador and has recently launched her own Curio podcast, What Do I Know? Which promises to cover everything from social challenges to sexual liberation. Plus, on the topic of sexual expression, Jillian will also be chatting to us about a very exciting new project. Welcome to the podcast. Gillian Anderson. I'm honored to be here. Thank you for asking me. I would just love to know, first of all,

what does reading mean to you? What does reading do to you? I am a strange reader because I find it really hard to give myself permission to read. I only usually read on holiday, which means that it doesn't happen very often. I purposefully put purchase. I prefer reading a real actual book in my hands,

but I also struggle with the amount of paper in books. And I struggle also with the fact that I don't allow myself to sit down and read. And so I often buy audio books because I'm driving my kids miles and miles and miles all over the place. And so I listen while doing that. And so I have a strange, I have part. piles and piles of books, because when I hear something is good or when I read about something, I buy it imagining that at some point in my life I'm going to be less busy and be able to at this library where I can just dip into anything I want, which is kind of ridiculous,

but that's my psychology. Oh, no, it's such a romantic notion, isn't it, having piles and piles of books, having this library of books and being able to dip into love poems one day when you just feel like it or an adventure that takes you away. But you're right, we often don't give ourselves enough time, or we see it as this luxury that we don't always deserve because there's so many things that we have to do on our day to day in life. Is reading an escape for you?

Yes, on the one hand, I think it is an escape. I do struggle sometimes when I'm in a book that is in a completely different world from my own or it's not recognizable, which is on the one hand important and fascinating to get a look into other people's experiences, but then I often get confused in my real life when I come back out and I am interacting in my world. I find it quite disconcerting, which is also why sometimes it's better that I just read on holiday

when the interaction between those things doesn't have consequences, really serious consequences. But I find, I do find, Because you've fully taken yourself out. Yeah, exactly. I do find it grounding, very much so and feel it slows me down. It's one of the only things that I allow to, every once in a while, pull me away from my busyness.

And what sort of books do you find yourself gravitating towards? I think if you were to look at a cross-section of, my piles. It would be edgy books that give some kind of insight into modern women's minds and lives. I also, I like the idea of biographies, political books, books about the brain. I seem to collect those and not read them. I'm really revealing a pathology here that I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with. But so the ones that I actually do end up picking up are the ones that are probably, yes, that have women at the centre of them in some way.

Well, this feels like the perfect podcast for you because we are all about books, by women with women at the centre that elicit all these feelings in women. Although I do totally relate to you. I've got lots of books with brilliant blurbs that seemed interesting at the time. I thought, I'll really want to know about that thing. But I haven't got into in the same way that stories take me away. So let's get taken away with your bookshelfy books today. And your first one is My Secret Garden by Nancy Friday.

First published in 1973, this groundbreaking exploration, of female desire featured hundreds of women safe behind the walls of anonymity, responding to Nancy Friday's call for details of their own most private sexual fantasies. This multi-million copy bestseller is the daring compilation of those fantasies. Can you tell us a bit about how you first came across this book? Well, I would have thought that I would have purposefully searched out this book much earlier than I actually found it. I'd heard about it for a long time and it wasn't really until

I was working on sex education and doing research for sex education that I think somebody had brought it up and I thought, of course, yes, I must finally read that. And so that's when I first discovered it, which is what, I don't know, four or five years ago, maybe longer, I can't remember all those stuff.

to sex. And what was your experience like of reading it for the first time? You know, it's quite shocking, but not necessarily in the way that you'd expect. That there's a level of intimacy and honesty from the women who are interviewed to just completely extraordinary. Women are sharing their deepest fantasies in an unfiltered, raw way. that, you know, it's almost as if they're not masking themselves for a reader at all. And so the stories seem, you know, their interviews,

that they seem to divulge something truly personal and true. And it feels, you know, in reading it, it feels like your privilege to be given permission to observe something that for many of us, you know, would be totally private. But also what's fascinating is that for most of the women or for many of the women, there's an admission of deep shame and guilt. There was still a lot of, I hate using this word, but prudishness and embarrassment around sex and what they fantasize about, which was fascinating.

Because these stories were shared during a time when we often think of as being sexually liberated in the middle of the 70s, post, you know, the swinging 60s and the decade of love and, you know, in the middle of a sexual revolution. And so to actually look at how this or often is or isn't reflected in the lives of real normal women, I think is interesting. By the time this podcast comes out, you will have announced a very exciting new project, inspired by Nancy Rydos' revolutionary bestseller. Could you tell us a little bit about it? So yes, I think very much inspired by it.

So I'm asking women from around the world to write to me anonymously, and it will be anonymously, revealing their sexual fantasies. So the letters that I receive will be included in what I hope will be, you know, a generation-defining book that will be published by Bloomsbury. and will be a revelatory, let's say, portrait of women's sexuality and what it means to be a woman today. So, you know, I'm asking for women who, if you identify as a woman, whatever your background or whoever you do or don't sleep with, whether you're 18 or 80, I want to hear from you. I love this. I'm so excited. I'm so excited to read this.

Why is it that you decided that it was time for a 21st century relook at the exploration of women's sex lives that Nancy Friday started back in the 70s? Well, I think, you know, today, thank God, we are living in a different world, you know, 40 years on from My Secret Garden from its publication. And, you know, women today can talk about sex with our contemporaries. And I think that's one of the things that I find so freeing about our show, sex education, is that we show characters who struggle with their sexual relations. And yet they are courageous enough, they're brave enough to talk about it with their lovers and partners. We see them discussing what it is that they want and that they hopefully then end up getting what they feel. they need sexually. And the show, you know, puts it all on a table in a way that makes it okay to

talk about. And I guess that's why I thought it might be time for, you know, a reboot of my secret garden, so to speak. I want it to feel inclusive across the board, you know, so whether you are queer, heterosexual, bisexual, non-binary, transgender, polymorous, young and old, whatever your religion, whether you're married or single, I want you to write to me and tell me what you think about when you think about sex. So we're launching it on the first until the 28th of February, until midnight on the 28th of February, 2023. It's completely secure. www.dearjillion.com.

Encrypted portal to ensure anonymity, obviously. and we will hopefully, I mean, we're hoping that letters come in from all over the world and with the knowledge that it's, you know, we've worked with data protection people and lawyers and yada, yada, yad, I've been working for months to create something that is truly anonymous so that people from anywhere feel safe in sending in their letters. I'm absolutely fascinated to see what we end up with. You mentioned that you first stumbled upon my secret garden by Nancy Friday while you were filming sex education, which is just such a brilliant, beautiful, joyful show that every single person I know absolutely loves. What did you learn about sex from filming sex education from playing Dr. Jean Milbert?

Well, you know, I don't have much to learn in the sexual arena. I'm joking. I'm sorry. I couldn't. How could I not? I don't know. I don't know. There was certainly some activities,

particularly around gay sex that I'd never heard of before. I felt like even though, you know, even though my character, obviously, is very open, sometimes, you know, too open, incredibly liberal and sexually free. And I, I feel.

like I am, I don't feel like I, I mean, I probably do, but I believe I don't have, there's nothing that usually shocks me, but even in watching the show and even though I'd read the episodes, you know, in watching the show, I remember gasping a few times, there were moments when I thought, can we say that? Really? God bless Netflix. Yeah, God bless Netflix. You, of course, have a few sex scenes in sex ed.

Has your attitude towards filming these kind of scenes? Has that changed as you've progressed through your career? Oh, definitely. I mean, there are today, post Me Too and Times Up, there are intimacy professionals who come on to sets now or should come on to set to be present so that everyone feels like what they are talking about, what they are about to do.

what they're about to engage in, is they're comfortable with, and they know that they feel protected, or if anything feels uncomfortable, they can put the hand up and say, uh-uh-uh. I mean, I was working on a show called The Great, and my character seduces the husband of my daughter. And we had an intimacy specialist there, And I thought that what she was going to be saying to us is, you know,

what was, you know, kind of putting a straight jacket on in terms of what we could and couldn't do, what was appropriate or what would be coming to. She was actually suggesting things that was so much raunchier than what I had imagined for the scene that was like, okay, I can do that. Yeah, sure. Right, right. So, you know, but at least, you know, because it's out on the table,

you're all talking about it. It's right in front of you. You know, and I had an opportunity to say, no, that's not for me. But, you know, me. I'd just say yes to everything. But that's another conversation. Well, on the subject of talking freely and openly, we move on to your second book,

which is the searingly beautiful sorrow and bliss by Meg Mason. This novel follows Martha, who has just turned 40 and is struggling to find contentment throughout her adult life. It paints this brutally honest portrayal of a marriage in breakdown and possibly one of the best written sibling relationships out there. Mason blends honesty and laugh out loud humour to tackle the theme of long-term mental illness with poignancy and tremendous heart. Now, this book, Gillian, was on the Women's Prize for Fiction Shortlist,

this year just gone by. We know it's one that our listeners are very familiar with that they love, that is loved by so many. But what was it that you loved about this book? I think it's in the title, to be honest. I mean, it's the duality of humour and despair. It's, you know, it's one of those rare books that kind of makes you cackle with laughter at one moment

and then rips your heart out the next moment and, you know, utterly destroys and devastates you. And I think that's what you want when you go to fiction. At least that's what I want. You know, why do we read if not to feel something? I love this book. Yeah, it utterly destroys you. It also utterly restores you.

I remember feeling devastated. And then in raptures at other times, knowing that with sorrow can also come bliss, that the two can live together inside me, inside any woman, inside any person. You've actually been quoted saying that every girl and woman should read this book. Can you tell us why you feel this way?

You know, I think that most of us can find something in Martha to relate to, whether we want to or not. I'm one of the many wonderful, things about the book is that it loves its characters for all of their real messy, unlikable aspects.

And I guess there's something about giving women permission to be unlikable that I like, that Martha doesn't have to make good decisions or behave in ways that we agree with to be worthy of our sympathy or our understanding.

You know, she doesn't need to be a perfect partner or daughter or sister or friend. And I think that we need to see that. We women need to see that. That it's okay to be messy and sometimes terrible. And that, you know, despite that we can also be deserving of love. And that's, you know, both of those things. see it can be true at the same time. I really think it does speak to this feeling that so many women have,

of feeling unlovable at times, which I don't think I've ever spoken about. I don't feel like it's a conversation we're encouraged to have. And in the same way, we were just chatting about the fact that women have often felt inhibited to talk about sex and desire freely. Why do you think we feel inhibited to talk about our minds? and our sense of self-worth and just how we feel freely. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that was so refreshing in the book, you know, to read about women having crises and figuring themselves out.

One, a woman not in her 20s, you know, but I think any time that I, I read a story, whether it's a real life story or fiction about the struggle. I mean, because we're all, you know, life, life is struggle. And bearing degrees of struggle, certainly. But I think we can all identify with the goal, with, you know, trying to do the right thing. You know, I feel like I am trying so hard to be. you know, a good person, a good mother. I mean, the amount of times I fail to be a good, you know,

or failing is not the right world, but I feel like I failed. I've tried, you know, I try to show up at the right time. I try to get there. I try to go to the right building. I try to, you know, all those things that we really try and to get to be frank and honest about the fact that it's hard and we're trying and we, you know, but that sometimes we get it wrong. and, you know, that just needs to be okay. It's, I've really struggled with, with the idea of striving for perfection, you know, and the degree to which I think a lot of young women today,

particularly because of social media, think that the answer is to reach for some form of perfection, whether it's physically or emotionally, psychologically. And it shouldn't be possible. It just shouldn't, I don't think. And yes. And so therefore, why don't we celebrate, you know, why don't we celebrate more the things that we,

you know, the fact that we struggle and that it's okay and to embrace our imperfections. And so any time I read a character or another human being who is finding ways to, accept oneself exactly as they are. It endears me to them and I feel compassion. In a world where we are so bombarded with these filtered highlights reels of people's lives that we find ourselves comparing ourselves to that which does not exist,

which isn't even real. It's so important to embrace our imperfections, to celebrate the struggle because it's all part of the journey. And this book, it does just that this character is. is so, so important. And also it's the relationship with her sister. I know you have a sister. Do you recognize that sort of witty sibling back and forth

between Martha and Ingrid in this book? You know, I do have a sister, but my sister is 16 years younger than me. And so we never had that experience. And I think, you know, I'm particularly fascinated by the dynamic of sisters because it feels like such a foreign land to me it really feels like a foreign land

you know the sibling thing I was an only child until I was 13 I have a brother who's no longer with us but it's I kind of missed out on that so anytime there are I think particularly

books about siblings I have a tendency to gravitate towards them because it just feels like a language I don't necessarily understand Bailey's is proudly supporting the women's prize for fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments

and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Looking for a treat to pair with your favourite book, Bailey's is the perfect accompaniment to enjoy either over ice or over coffee. It's time for us now to move on to your third book, Gillian, today, which is Three Women by Lisa Todayo. This is a real story about the sex lives of three. three American women based on almost a decade of reporting. It follows Lena, a young mother whose marriage has lost its spark. She reconnects with someone from her past and has an affair that

quickly consumes her. Then we've got Maggie, a 17-year-old who allegedly has a relationship with her married English teacher, and Sloan, happily married to a man who likes to watch her have sex with other people. Can you tell us a little bit about why you've picked this book? Do you remember identifying with it in particular? Yeah, well, I know so many people who, so many women who read this book, particularly and were completely blown away by it when it was first published. Everyone was talking about it. And I think, you know, Lisa, today, I was something of a genius.

And it was unlike anything I'd ever read before. It's narrative journalism. And it had that kind of curious, incisive journalistic perspective, but it's also a book that really cares and honours its subjects. So it's about these three women, but it's really about

who we are as women. And it asks big, profound questions about sexual power, politics, desire. It really, you know, it covers quite a lot. when you dig down into it.

It's so refreshing. And it is, as you say, it's this real depiction of women, which is one that I feel we don't often see. We don't see enough. In a similar way to what, you know, you're trying to achieve with Deer Gillian with the project, do you think women are still being reduced

to one-dimensional beings and particularly sexually in books and films and TV and the media? Well, I think it's all about representation. and empowering women to be able to share their own stories in whatever way that makes the most sense to them. And the more books and films and other media we see where women are shown as real complex beings

and the more that women are able to be at the helm of these stories and the better we will all do. If we don't see ourselves represented fairly, then how can we be expected to fully comprehend our interior lives and then to express them ourselves and to each other. It's so important to be able to see ourselves, you know, whoever we are, wherever we've come from, whatever our background. It's important that we get to recognize ourselves in the public space.

I think the impact that that has on young girls as well, is huge when you know that you're represented, you know that your feelings and thoughts are valid, it then gives you courage to express yourself even further, even more to step into your light and to be yourself and know the power of your voice. And this book is in many ways about how sometimes women, but they don't feel they can do that.

They control their own impulses, you know, to the point where they become totally divorced from them. Is that something that you can identify with, I guess, shrinking yourself. Oh, definitely. Definitely, definitely, definitely. And, you know, certainly from, you know, when I was younger, the amount of situations that I put myself in knowing that it was a bad idea.

Oh, my God. I mean, you know, the voice of reason and, and, you know, and self-care on my shoulder, saying, you know, back away from that, you know, take a step back. And I didn't listen. And, you know, and I still struggle with it, which is, you know, ridiculous. You know, I'm incredibly outspoken and, and feel like I, you know, I'm, you know, I'm, you know, I'm too outspoken most of the time and I stand up for myself and my, you know, and my needs and what I want and what is fair, et cetera.

And still, yeah, I find myself sometimes, you know, clamming up or, you know, shining a light, a verbal light on something that because I'm, you know, afraid of having somebody's feeling, afraid there'll be anger with me, afraid of this, that, and the other, even though I know what I need to say is important and true and something that I need, you know, and I just boggles my mind

why those two things can go exist, why I could be, you know, both of those women, but it's true, and I think it's a lifelong, it's a lifelong challenge. I mean, I'm really old and I've been struggling with it for a long time and I don't imagine

it ending any time soon. Time to talk about your fourth book now, which is such a fun age by Kylie Reid. A striking and surprising debut novel, such a fun age is a big-hearted story about race and the messy dynamics of privilege. It tells the story of a young black woman who is wrongly accused of kidnapping

while babysitting a white child, her well-intentioned employer and a surprising connection that threatens to undo them both. Can you tell us while you pick this book? How has it influenced you? Oh, gosh. I remember tearing through this book,

just desperate to know what was going to happen and how any of these impossibly awkward situations are going to be resolved. It's just, you know, I also found myself thinking back to it for months after I read it. You know, everything that Kylie Reid writes about in the book is painfully true. And I think anyone who has read it comes away with some sort of regretful relation to what they've just read in a way that whether you've been on the receiving end of microaggressions like Amira or like ALeaks, you've acted in a way that you think are good intentions and just come, you know, you just completely misread a situation or there's just so much in there about political,

correctness and how we try and fail to control how we're perceived and how we can have the best of intentions, but be entirely misguided if you're not actually really paying attention to what the world and the people around you are saying or need of you in that moment. So it was gobsmacking to me. Your podcast, what do I know, is very much. much about drawing attention to voices, which aren't usually in the foreground, giving them agency. So what kinds of stories have you been able to shine a light on? Well, we started with a few stories about, you know, unsung women, heroes in science and medicine. But also, I interviewed a woman who was diagnosed later in life with autism. And she speaks about being very, very,

eloquently about being labeled and told that, you know, she needs to get better, be fixed as opposed to in society being, you know, encouraged to embrace that aspect of her and celebrate it in a way or lean into the aspects of her autism that might actually be contributing to the incredibly articulate and empower. crazy smart brain woman that she is and, you know, just finding ways to talk about that the contrast between what she was being fed by society and government and the medical community as opposed to what she was actually experienced or wanted to be getting from them. So that was fascinating.

When we're talking about understanding who we are, the perception of others that others might have of us and creating these full-bodied images of these people. I mean, you've said in a recent interview, there's two versions of yourself, the version that is the actress and then also the version that is the mom. Do you keep these two selves separate? Is that important to you? How do you do it? I'm very good at compartmentalising. And I think I learned when I was, you know, young, shot to fame my early 20s and had a baby age 26 and was working crazy, crazy hours. And at the same time, had my daughter in my trailer.

And so, you know, on set, having to completely focus 100% in my trailer, having to completely focus 100% on my trailer, having to completely focus 100% on my. child in order to, you know, not abandon her or to contribute to her feeling neglected. And in that, I think because I was so young, I had practiced for so many hours, you know, a thousand hours or whatever of having to do that, that I continue today to, I don't, I don't recognize the actress when I'm with my kids. It doesn't come up. We don't talk about it. It's not, it doesn't interfere with my life as a mum.

And, you know, I, you know, at the school run or whatever, wherever we are, you know. You wouldn't know. And I think sometimes when that part of my life intrudes, because we're suddenly in a public space, whether they're getting their hacker or, you know, Tesco's or, you know, and somebody says something, it's totally shocks them. It completely, they forget, you know, my boys are getting on in the teenagers and still,

it so hasn't been a part of their experience of their mom, that they, it's jarring for them. And they don't like it. I have to say they really don't. And so they will contribute to us choosing to be in places that are not too crowded. You recently wrote a letter of advice to your 16-year-old self, including the brilliant line, chase your dreams, not your boyfriends. I feel like if my mum was to write a letter, it would also have that line in it.

Is this ethos something that you tried to imbue when parenting your daughter, but also your sons? I mean, my sons at the minute are so focused on other stuff that, I know that they, yeah, they don't. They're obsessed with a particular thing that they do, which is a sport thing that they do. And they are, so that's their first love. And there's not much time at the minute for romantic thoughts, as far as I know, you know, I say that.

It could be so naive. But, and so I'm not quite there. And I don't imagine there's ever going to be another human that will be able to cut through and move to the first position above what they're focused on. But we shall see. Yeah, I mean, a good part of my younger life was very much seeing the world laid out before me, realizing how, you know, lucky, privileged I was in choice, and yet choosing to go over here because that's where he or she went, you know,

it's just, it's unbelievable when I think back. And, you know, I've had conversations with my daughter who's older, and she is incredibly, she follows her, she really follows her own heart. You know, she takes herself off on journeys, even though she's in a long-term relationship if her partner is not able. to travel, she will take herself traveling or go with a friend or, you know, and, you know, he's the same. And so they have a good, open dialogue, I think, about what their individual needs are for both personal journeys and for their work. And she tries very hard to put her needs in the forefront.

And I'm incredibly proud of her for that. I love to hear it. I really, really do. It's time for your fifth and final book this week, which is the salt path by Raina win. Days after Raina learns that Moth, her husband of 32 years, is terminally ill. Their home and livelihood is taken from them. With nothing left and little time, they make the impulsive decision to walk the 630 miles of the sea swept southwest coast path from Somerset to Dorset via Devon and Cornwall. The salt path is an honest and life-affirming true story of grief, human endurance and the healing power of the natural worlds. How did this book speak to you? Whenever I think about this book, I get teary. It affected me so profoundly. And, you know, this was one of the books that I listened to in audio book form. and hearing Raina Wynne's voice in my ear

or over my, through the Bluetooth in my car. I just, their experience is really terrible and unimaginable circumstances to suddenly lose everything within a week, just suddenly. And I know that, you know, that happens to many people, under different circumstances. But to suddenly find yourself having to let go of the life that you have built up over 30 years

and contributed to your income in part because they rented out their house, they had animals, they lived off their land and suddenly through a bad investment. It would just, they had to turn it over to this other party. And the way that they, they decided, you know, at the same time, the husband was diagnosed with a terminal degenerative illness called CBD and they decided to walk. You know, they couldn't afford petrol for their cars.

They weren't going to drive. They didn't know where they were going to stay. They didn't want to just camp on people's sofas. They didn't really know. They needed to kind of figure out what next. So the journey takes them through not only the journey of releasing attachment to these material things, takes them through the journey of letting go of the resentment of being forced to give away, give up their life that they had built, everything that they had.

an attachment to that we as human beings attached to. It's just so moved by it. And these individuals had that experience and found their way to the other side of it and how they are perceived from the outside, depending on what they said to people along their journey. If they told people that they were on a walk, people laughed and embraced them

and told them how wonderful they thought they were if they revealed the truth about the fact that they were homeless people turned their back on them and gathered their children close and I think that's extraordinary it's a really amazing story it's a really amazing journey such an evocative book as well

And how do you stay awake to the joys of life and of nature? Are there specific things that you do in your day-to-day to stop you sleepwalking through life? I, a couple years ago, got a dog. And the dog, on the one hand, adds to my stress and causes havoc and chaos. there are a lot of people in my life who curse her on a regular basis. And at the same time, she is the thing that gets me out in nature because I, twice a day, I take her out and I try really hard to not be on my phone and or not be listening to a podcast or a book, but just,

to be. I haven't got to the point where I've actually left my phone back in the house, but I put one foot in front of the other. I lift my head up. I look at my surroundings. I breathe. I try and stay present there without going through my email and this, that, and the other one, I should have answered, and why didn't I? Oh, and tomorrow I have to and, oh, I forgot. What did I forget? You know, all of that chatter and try really hard. And it's a daily struggle. It's a daily, you know, but it is so worth it. And I feel like I have done something really important for myself and for my being when I've managed to be on this walk and just have been on the walk.

Knowing that that is enough, that being present is enough, it is such a liberating and peaceful feeling. Gillian, this is a hard one because you have brought some stunning pieces of literature to us today. But if you had to choose one book from your list as a favourite, which one would it be and why? Oh, that's horrible. I'm sorry. That's such a horrible thing to say. Gosh, okay, I'm just going to talk about the two that it would boil down to, mostly because I feel that they're really important. They start really important questions and conversations, which are, you know, such a fun age, I think, because it really, you know, it forces us to focus on what has become importantly a contemporary dilemma about how,

you know, about how we relate to others big and small in the world around us. And I guess it says the same about a sort path, you know, how we relate to others. You know, if we see somebody on a path who looks homeless or in the middle of our, you know, our street, how we relate to them and what that says about us. and I am going to choose salt path because, ah, damn, no, I'm not. No, I'm going to choose such a fun age. I'm going to choose such a funnage because of the fact that it feels like it embraces, it's a real microscope and, oh, magnifying glass, I should say,

and embraces much more. diverse conversation, but we just need to force those conversations as much as possible. I always say the best books are those that change the way you see the world. And in turn, that changes the way you see yourself. And I feel like all of your picks today have done that and the salt path and such a funny age in particular. So I completely agree. What gorgeous choices.

Thank you so much, Gillian Anderson. It has been such a pleasure, such a joy, such an honour. And I'm so excited as well for Dear Gillian. Don't forget, wherever you are in the world, whatever age you are, you can write to Gillian with your most secret personal fantasies. Just head to www.orgillian.com to submit yours. Thank you so much for joining me.

That was so much. Thank you very, very much. You really slowed me down. You slowed me down for a whole hour. And I thank you for that. And it was a pleasure. And that's what we're all about. We're able to be present with each other.

So thank you for being present with me and with all of the listeners today. Thank you. I'm Vic Hope and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.