Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S5 Ep4: Bookshelfie: Baroness Doreen Lawrence

Episode Date: April 20, 2022

Baroness Doreen Lawrence OBE shares her life of relentless campaigning for justice for her son, Stephen Lawrence. She’s a multi-award winning campaigner and an author, but most importantly she’s a fighter. Her tireless campaigning led to the MacPherson inquiry, which described the Metropolitan Police as “institutionally racist”. In 2003, she was given an OBE for services to community relations and founded the Stephen Lawrence Charitable Trust to promote community legacy in her son’s name. Her memoir, And Still I Rise, was published in 2007, and in 2020 she was appointed as race relations advisor for the Labour Party. Stephen Lawrence Day is marked officially in the British calendar every 22nd April, commemorating the anniversary of Stephen’s death. The day is an opportunity to celebrate Stephen’s life, to educate young people about the significance of his legacy and highlight the ongoing work of the Stephen Lawrence Day Foundation.   The Foundation, established amid unprecedented growing global awareness of racial inequality, and exists to inspire a more equal, inclusive society, and to foster opportunities for marginalised young people in the UK. The Foundation is the home of Stephen Lawrence’s legacy and has education at its core, focusing on three areas: Classrooms, Community and  Careers. Doreen’s book choices are:  ** The Color Purple by Alice Walker ** Beloved by Toni Morrison ** Becoming by Michelle Obama ** I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou ** Waiting to Exhale by Terry McMillan Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season five of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women.   Don’t want to miss the rest of Season Five? Listen and subscribe now!   This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve. Today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com.com. I'm no different to what I was growing up. Okay, you know, I've probably got a platform now and a voice, but I'm still the same person.

You know, I didn't set out for any of this. This has happened and because I decided I wasn't going to let my son's name become a statistic that I'm going to fight for him. So yes, that's where I am, but I am the same person. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope and I am your brand new host for season five of the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast,

the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. We have a phenomenal lineup of guests for Dementia. I guarantee you'll be taken away plenty of reading recommendations. Hello and welcome to today's episode of Bookshelfy. I'm Vic Hope and I am absolutely thrilled to be joining you as your new host for Series 5. Let me start by reminding you that this year's long list is out now and the 16 brilliant authors and their books can all be found on our website

wwwwomensprivedfiction.co.uk. It is my honour to introduce this week's guest Doreen Lawrence, Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon OBE. After her son Stephen was tragically murdered in a racially motivated, unprovoked attack, Doreen was quick to call out the Metropolitan Police's incompetence and racism. After years of campaigning, the Macpherson inquiry was set, which deemed the Metropolitan Police institutionally racist. In 2003, she was given her OBE for service.

services to community relations and founded the Stephen Lawrence Charitable Trust to promote community legacy in her son's name. Her inspiring work has led to many accolades and in 2020 she was appointed as race relations advisor of the Labour Party. Stephen Lawrence Day is marked officially in the British calendar every 22nd of April commemorating the anniversary of Stephen's death. The day is an opportunity to celebrate Stephen's life, to educate young people about the significance of his legacy and to highlight the ongoing work of the Stephen Lawrence Day Foundation. She has truly dedicated her life to making the country a safer place for everyone. So thank you so much for joining us. Doreen, welcome to the podcast. Hi, thank you very much. This is a podcast all

about the books that have shaped us, how they've impacted our lives, how they've made us who we are today, how they've ignited our activism. So has reading played a big part in your life? Yes, I think I really start reading a lot more when I went back to university, and I think that's when I discovered, especially all the black writers, women writers. But at the time, I don't think we could see very much in this country, but American is where I think where my reading list has taken me, because they've been such inspiring women, talking about their lives. And I think my first book was looking at Myangelo's.

I know why the cage birds sing. And since then, I think I've collected all her books. Yes. And read every single one of them. You know, that first book is what got me hooked. I feel like she was an introduction and an education for so many of us. And you're right. I'm looking at your list.

You've got Myangelo, Alice Walker, Tony Morrison, these women who have paved the way and shown the way as well. What does reading give to you? What do these books mean to you? it just transport you to another place and I think when I'm reading I can imagine being in that place at that time whether it's to do with sorrows or something happy you know I could really relate to it and I think I read so many books and there sometimes I feel so distraught by what I'm reading the information in there you know if somebody dies in some respect I'll to me just bring tears to my and then it sort of brings me back to Stephen's case and the loss of Stephen.

So I think a book is something that can transport you to different places at different times. And did you love it as a child as well? Not so much. I think something I've been brought up in a Caribbean household. I find there wasn't that many books. And so when I had my own children, I filled all the corners I could think. of books and one of my, one of my children, I mean, so his punishment was taking away a book from him. Right. Yeah, he was just into reading constantly. So that was his punishment. You know, you want him to get on to do something, you take away the book from him. And it's so often the other way around, isn't it? You're not allowed to watch the TV or play your computer games. You have to

read a book instead as a punishment. Back in the late 70s, 80s, all they have is books. And I've constantly buying. And I think when they grew up, I was giving away books, so many children books I had bought over the years that I started giving away to nieces and nephews and their children, because my house was just full of it. And it still is. Was Stephen a big reader? Yes. I mean, so he used to like those stories that you make up your own ending, the faraway tree and stuff like that, Eden Blighton. Yes, he was. He really was, yes. Well, let's start with your first book-shelfy book, the book that's meant a lot to you. And it's The Color Purple by Alice Walker, a firm favorite among guests on this podcast.

It's a Pulitzer Prize-winning novel, which made Alice Walker rise to fame. The story's told through letters written to God by Sealy, a young black girl born in deep rural Southern America. She suffers many traumas, including being raped repeatedly by her father, being separated from her beloved sister Neti, when she's forced into an arranged marriage with an abusive man. Along the way, Sealy befriends the first woman she's known to be in charge of her own destiny, singer Shug Avery, and begins to discover her true spirits. What did you love about this book? I think I loved her strength, you know, even though all those things has happened to her

and, you know, her husband had beaten, and the fact that when she came out of that, so realised our own strength. start making garment and stuff and selling it. It becomes her. And when her husband eventually see her determination, she doesn't want to put up any more of his abuse, he comes running to her. She can just say, go away, you know. And that, to me, is the strength of a woman, the inner strength that we all have. And within Alice Walker, but that came out really strong. Because after all the all the trauma she'd been through, you know, within her family, when her mother died and then what her father was doing to her. And a person, a mother didn't believe her

when she was saying the things that was happening to her. And I think in some cases, in today's thing, the same thing could happen again. So we can learn so much from those authors and from somebody like Alice Walker. There is so much strength to be identified and hopefully also taken by the reader from this book. Seeley has two children taken away from her against her will in the novel and you've experienced something similar in a very different but in a very painful way. Did you recognise yourself at all in Celie's character at this point? I think the lost is what I recognise, you know,

that you've given birth to a child. and people who, I presume no experience of what a motherhood is like and what it is having a child and bringing a child into this world. You know, they can so easily just take that away from you. And I think losing stealing, and I still, I mean, say after nearly 29 years, the loss is still very, very much sharp for me. I don't think I'll ever move away from that. because the loss is nothing

everything around me at times reminds me of him you've only got to see a program or see something about a school children and they're talking about Stephen Lawrence Day how inspired he has made them

and so seeing that I was watching something the other day that was talking about Stephen and I think I cried all the way through it because you know is to see how much much joy he would have brought to so many people given the opportunity to live his life. You know, kids, you talk about living your best life.

And I think that's what he would have been able to do. And that would just snatch away from him for no other reason than because of who he is and because he was a young black man going about his daily business. He fought for 18 years to find the men who murdered your son. And since his death, the institute, of race relations estimated around five people a year have lost their lives to racial violence. That was in 2012.

So as you say, it's not, we're not there yet. Do you think that politicians are in denial about the severity of racial violence? I think only of those who feels it knows it. And the majority of politician, you know, there are times that talk a lot, but I don't think they really understand. I think when you think of how many young people's been losing their life since the McPherson came out back in 99,

and the figures have grown. And I remember speaking to somebody and I was saying, if this was a group of white kids that was dying in our streets up and down the country, there would have been outrage. But because the majority of them are young black men, young black boys, nobody seems to care about that. And that's the saddest thing ever. You know, we want them to care.

We want them to have the experience and to understand what a mother's going through, what the family's going through, with the loss of their child. I don't think that, you know, they're taught, I don't think they really understand. They're not feeling the pain. One quote that sort of resonates for me

when I read the color purple, the book that I feel like, many of us have been touched by and know so well. It is Malcolm X's, the most disrespected person in America is the black woman. The most unprotected person in America is the black woman. The most neglected person in America is the black woman. And yet, as you've said, there is still joy that we can find. Joy is radical. We can find that every day in life. What brings you joy? I think at the moment what brings me joy is my my grandchildren, you know, that I'm fortunate enough to have three grandchildren. And I think

every time I feel, especially if I speak to the eldest one, which is Mia, you know, she makes me laugh so much. And she has the gift of bringing that laughter out, whereas it I think most of the time I'll be sad all the time. But when she comes, she just makes me laugh constantly. And for your three grandchildren, what Britain do you hope that they were living? There's two boys and I'll worry for them because at primary school when they go off the secondary school, you know, society see them completely different. They don't have to be doing anything, but it's just their mere presence seems to alert police and people who are not. authorities that they feel that these young men are a threat when they're not. And I don't think

society even stopped to get to know them. Because if you do, you realize that they want everything that your child wants. You know, they're no different. You know, they're laughing at the play just the same way as a politician child would. So it's to give them the space, the understanding, allow them to achieve whatever it is that they're wanting life and respect them. I don't think that respect is there for our young black boys and that's what I worry about my two grandsons. Well, Doreen, let's move on to your second bookshelfy book,

which is The Wonderful Beloved by Tony Morrison, winner of the 1988 Pulitzer Prize, the book examines the destructive legacy of slavery through the life of Seth. The novel is based on the tragic life of slave Margaret, who escaped from a Kentucky plantation with her family, but was caught years later by the police and their owner in Ohio and killed her own infant daughter

to prevent her going back into slavery. In the novel, Seths is a house haunted by secrets of the violent, traumatic memories of her former enslaved life and by shameful secrets that will not stay buried. Tell us a little bit about this book, Doreen. Why did it resonate with you? I think at first when I try to read this book, It's quite a difficult book I felt.

And understanding where Tony Morris was coming from, I think it wasn't until the film that it gave me a greater understanding. I had to keep going back to this book, the trauma. I think that's what I kept feeling when I was reading this. And not quite understanding what the trauma was about until eventually, I think it's towards the end that I came to life. of what it is about taking her own child's life. That's what gave her nightmares.

And in some respect, gave me nightmares, trying to understand the deep sense of grief that she was feeling. And for her to get that across, I think we all had to experience the same thing with her. That was my gut feeling when I was trying to read it. And I said it took me a couple of times. to read and to get to because I kept putting it down and picking it up again,

not understanding what I was reading. That struggle to grieve the loss of her daughter due to the trauma surrounding her death, it's like it's almost impossible to imagine. It's insurmountable. Like you just said and you've explained, that you haven't fully grieved. It feels almost impossible to fully grieve because the level of acceptance that that necessity,

is, again, insurmountable. And also your dedication to campaigning for justice. Is there anything that you're now doing to change this, to try and grieve as you feel like you should? I think that's what's been a problem. Because I think had the opportunity, like from the beginning as taking me through, but because I had to fight, you know,

it was literally putting in an armour every day and going out. I had to fight. Nothing came easy. So it didn't give me the space that I should have. So I think I'm still at the point where I don't think I've grieved properly because every now and again I'll be crying for no reason or something will pop up. That really touches me, that makes me cry.

And I think because I wasn't given the space. I wasn't given the space for me to go through the grief. breathing process. You know, I took a course. I did a therapeutic counseling course so I can try to understand my own feelings at that point. And I still feel I'm not there yet. And I know it's nearly 29 years. But if you think about the 29 years, I have, every year, there's been something that I've had to address, to talk about, to challenge and to challenge those people in power. So they haven't given me the space, basically. Even though many times I try to take it,

it's still a struggle. It's still a struggle for me. Are you able to take that space now? Is there an opportunity now? I think I'm trying to now, I think by looking at the foundation and new charity I've set up now and focusing on Stephen's legacy and working through that

and talked with young people and anyone who is interested in hearing about Stephen's life. Because I think as a young man, he was happy. He had freedom, which for somebody, I remember at age of 10, he was getting on the bus and going down to Woolwich on his own. And I think out of all my three children, he's the only one. I felt that I could allow him to do that because that's how he was. was. Yeah. You know, he felt safe.

He was happy. He was confident in himself. And I think that's what I'm trying to pass on to other young children now is for them to be themselves, to have a confidence in who they are and to stand up and be proud. Yes. I guess grief is not linear. You know, you say 29 years, but it could be two. It could be 50.

it will still come in waves. And that pursuit of justice is in some ways a distraction. You're constantly busy and you're constantly having to think about so many other things. But as you say, also keeping his legacy alive means that there will never be a goodbye because he lives on in so many people. You do so much work to uplift and to provide opportunities for young people to fulfill their potential. I know in 1998 you worked with the Royal Institute of British Architects, to establish the Stephen Lawrence Prize,

which is an annual prize and bursary for young architects. And of course, he founded the Stephen Lawrence Day Foundation in memory of your son's legacy to help other young people. What would you say is the most important work that you do? I think the pride is to see how many of those young people now has become architects and who are running their own practices. And I know the last couple of years would have been really difficult and not being able to be in touch with them like I'd like to,

is that I know that they've achieved so much and to know that they were studying in Stephen's name. And I had the opportunity of meeting them because I think they were fantastic young people. Star Wars Andor, streaming exclusively on Disney Plus. Gassian Ander, Empire is choking us. I mean, all the heroes I can get. From the creators of Rogue One.

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and book chat from our friends, including me, Vic Hope. Search for Women's Prize friend to become a friend today. We cannot wait to meet you. Let's move on to your third book, which is Becoming by Michelle Obama in the memoir written by this generation's favorite former first lady. Michelle walks us through her personal evolution from humble beginnings on the south side of Chicago. Michelle writes about all the aspects of her life, her roots, finding her voice, her relationship with Barrack, her time as first lady, her public health campaign and motherhood.

There are plenty of life lessons to learn in this memoir, including striving to be your best and ignoring the criticism of others. Tell me about when you first read this book, what impact did it have on you? I think before I read this book, I've read others of her books since she became first lady. And I think it's the aura she gives off and how her is always on maintaining around education to be smart. and now she's, you know, what she says to young people when she meets them. I've never met her in person. I've been places where she has been, and I've been in the audience of some, you know,

especially when she came to South Bank, I was in the audience. And to listen to her story, I just think she's such an amazing woman. And to be a black woman, to be, you know, the wife of a president and what she brought to the role, I don't think any other woman in that position has done as much as what she has done. And at the same time, around her family, making sure that they're secure and they're safe

and supporting her husband because they always say behind her, and there's always a good woman, and she was definitely that. She was definitely that. And she didn't try to overshadow him. She was just there to make sure, she's supporting me in the right way.

And you could see it whenever they're out together. That, you know, I don't think he would walk away and said, I would not have my wife by my side because he appreciate the support that she had given him. To me, I think she's just a fantastic woman. Oh, she's amazing. I remember when this book came out, she did a little tour and she would, I'd say, little, it was, she was like a rock star. She was at the O2, sold out the O2.

like any rock star would. And it was so, it was amazing to see. I was in tears in the audience. I felt so uplifted and so mobilized and so excited about what we as black women can do. What is possible for us. There was something that she said actually in particular, which was you don't just think about the changes you want to make now. You have to have foresight.

I'm not doing this just for my children. I'm doing it for my children's children, for their children, for their children. She has this real sense of creating a future for our grandkids, which is something we've just spoken about. Was that something that you took from this? Well, definitely. And I think most of the stuff that I do now is looking for the future. Yeah.

We've got the Stephen Lawrence Research Centre. And so there's all these archives are there. And so generations to come, you know, they can go and learn about Stephen. And I think everything I begin to do now is looking forward. So in how many generations I'm trying to leave a mark wherever I go. So whether it is just sitting in the House of Lords, my name was something, whatever I speak in the chamber, I have, I make sure I get the hands on.

So in generation to come, when my great-great-grandchildren sort of look at it, Yes, Dorian was my grandmother, was my hero. And this is what she said. This is what she said back in 2021 or 2022, whenever I spoke in the chamber. So I tried to do that for my grandchildren. The legacy is something, which is what I'm trying to do with around Stevens, around their legacy, that I want to leave behind.

And the positive, you know, yes, he died by a knife crime, but I've not focused on that around Stephen. I've focused on education and how important it is for us and for our children because education can take you anywhere. And that's what I think Michelle Obama was trying to say to

when she visited a school when she came over here back in, what is 2009, 2010 when she arrived here as First Lady, the first trip to the UK is to visit a school. And it's to show the young people there that we can be whatever we want to be,

given the right opportunity. And that's what I'd like to see where the foundation is trying to do, is supporting young people to be whoever they want to be. Well, that legacy is potent. Stephen Lawrence Day is marked officially in the British calendar every 22nd of April. So it's tomorrow the day after this podcast

comes out and it commemorates the anniversary of Stephen's death. It's an opportunity to celebrate Stephen's life to educate, as you say, young people about the significance of this legacy and highlight the ongoing work of the Stephen Lawrence Day Foundation. Something that was really interesting to hear Michelle talk about in Becoming is that she didn't actually want to get involved in politics. That's not what she felt her path was. There was a reluctance. And yet here, you know, here she is and here you are doing so much, but it wasn't because you'd set out to do that. It was an unfortunate tragic event that has led to you being in this position. Did you ever see yourself as a campaigner when you were younger?

Did you ever feel that spirit of wanting to make change? No, definitely not. I think where my children was concerned as they were growing up, I was always their defender. always beating school is something happened within school within the neighbourhood

I'm there I'm always there standing up for them and I presume Stephen's death the shock of it and I presume being naive around

you know not being in that sort of tragedy thinking that everybody who heard the news they'd be so you know devastated I want to make sure

that Steve killers and anyone else like Stephen were brought to justice. And then you realize they don't care. A lot of the British public at that time did not care that a young black boy was stabbed to death on the streets of London, the Prime Minister, nobody cared. And I just, you know, you're just like, how can you not care? And so for me, was all of a sudden, I find myself in a position that, no, you're not going to ignore him. You know, he was an innocent young man trying to find his way home. And these boys, for whatever it is reason,

he decided to take his love. And you as a government and people in society didn't think is important enough to campaign for him. So I had to do it. You know, I had to be his voice because he would have been a voice of other young people. And that was taken away from him. And nobody cared. That's what he's, the establishment did not care.

And, okay, things are a little bit different now, that people are interested to understand about Stephen, the life of Stephen, the legacy that he's left, the laws that's been changing his name, because he deserve all of that. He deserve that of the person that he was. Something Michelle Obama has said is that as a black woman in that position of power,

there is such a responsibility and such an expectation to be perfect. You have to be perfect. Otherwise, you're open for criticism. There are people trying to trip you up. And I know this is something that you've come up against, you know, and being criticised for not making the police a cup of tea, for not smiling when you had nothing to smile about. How did you negotiate those obstacles and that level of essentially trolling?

I think that just makes me even more determined. You know, I've said many times to police officers being in the room with them. I just said that his name would never be a statistic. You would always remember him. And every time his name is mentioned, you would remember what had happened. And I presume at that time when I was speaking, I wasn't trying to, I do not change laws or any of those things. I was just so angry that, you know, somebody

went out of their way to take his life for no other reason but because of the colour of his skin. And then those who were there to protect him weren't they to protect him and those who were there to get justice for him didn't want to get justice for him. So, you know, for Michelle being the first black woman, you know, in the White House

and to see this black woman in a position of power, you know, the resentment is there. But it's not something that she's setting out. All she wants to do is to do good. And so by being the person that she is, she just, you know, just cast over that and continue to be the person that she is. And I think that's what I try to be.

I've always said to anybody I speak to, I'm no different to what I was growing up. Okay, you know, I've probably got a platform now and a voice, but I'm still the same person. I'm not seeking celebrity status. When's when you talk about celebrity, whom me? No, I'm not. You know, I didn't set out for any of this.

This has happened, and because I decided I wasn't going to let my son's name become a statistic, that I'm going to fight for him. So yes, that's where I am, but I am the same person. Well, we move on now to a book that is all about becoming the person that you are, finding your voice and raising your voice, singing out loud. Your fourth book, Shelfy Book, is I Know Why the Cagebird Sings by Maya Angelou. It's one of the most widely read and taught books written by an African-American woman. It's the first of seven autobiographical works written by Dr. Maya Angelou, published in 1969.

and it follows Maya's life from age three up until age 16, where we learn of her unsettled and often traumatic childhood where she endured both rape and racism. Maya wrote this book as a way of dealing with the death of a friend and her own experiences as well of discrimination and extreme poverty. Why did this book make it onto your list? When I first went back into education, one of the books was partly given to us as students.

with us as black women all the things that we go through you know and we've been able to arise above all of her and for her to be a best known author her poems and you know and still arise

I was lucky enough to get permission to use that as a title of my book that was done in 2006 because of the woman that she's I've met her quite a few times and the grace that she had You know, that's come right through in all her biography that she's done and on all the poems that she's written.

Because she's trying to give strength to other women. You know, she's sort of looking into, not so looking into their soul, but saying, you know, you can do this. And so I do love her. I think as an author, as an ordinary woman, all the things that she's been through, I just think she's fantastic. What was it like the first time you met her? How did you feel? Amazing. She did a memorial lecture for us. So this was, what, 2001, 2002 that she did that. And I was very nervous getting up on stage to, you know, the Anderson flowers to say thank you.

And, you know, it was a gentle way in which she spoke to me, you know, just the way she spoke to me. And she has an amazing voice as well. Yeah. and one of her birthday parties I was invited to and I think she was listening to some music or something that's playing and this couple got up to dance and she just shoot him away

and I'm missing to this guy, sit down, sit down. You know, and it's that power that she has and the strength within her that she's able to do that. I'm not sure if I'll be brave enough to get up and tell somebody to sit down because I'm listening to this music. I'm not certain if I'll do that, but she had that gift.

Yes. I mean, just one of the most incredible people ever to have walked the earth, how much of an inspiration, how much has she impacted the way that you navigate your life, move about as a woman in general? If you think about it, as a young black girl growing up, I didn't experience, I experienced racism, but not as much as my brothers did. And going out to work, working in the bank, and I've seen how within the environment, how as a young woman and how we were treated as young black woman within the banking, I just think, you know, you've always had to be used in your own and trying to gain strength and not to allow things to, knock you down, which is one of her, I think one of her, is it singing and dancing,

I can't remember all the titles of her book. But each time she's been knocked down, she rise up and just take on, well, okay, this is what's happened to me here. This is what I'm going to do next. So she never allowed anything to keep her down. And I think, I know where the cage birds think, that is what happened to her when she was young. You know, That's what happened. She did not allow the rape and, you know, how her mother's boyfriend did to her. And that's why she became mute because she didn't want, after she told who had done this,

and she thought the power of her voice could have somebody killed. So she became mute, so she wouldn't speak. And she's frightened until eventually she was able to get her voice back. And since then, she has not stopped. Well, your voice has spread far and wide and impacted so many. In fact, a review in The Times said that your memoir, which of course is inspired by that poem, I'm still, I rise by Maya Angelou. And the Times said, it should be put alongside Nelson Mandela's Long Walk to Freedom or the works of Maya Angelou.

How does it feel to hear that? Well, I'm always embarrassed when anybody say anything to me like that. You're sort of shaking your head. I just think I'm still walking in the shadows of great, so I don't think I'm there. I really don't think I'm there. You know, and to have the opportunity to meet great people. And Nelson Mandela is one of those. You know, and meeting Maya Angelou, it was just, these are great people who have done extraordinary things.

And they did not set out to do that, especially Mandela. He was just fighting for his people. And so we, from the black community, We find ourselves in positions that we have to fight. And I don't understand why, you know, we have to go through this trauma when, you know, we should be not saying given everything, but we've worked for it. You know, so why, you know, we have to go the extra mile just to get a fraction of what we deserve? How refreshing is it to read a book about women supporting women instead of female,

competition. I think that's great because I think so many women, they do want to support each other. And I find that for me, you know, whenever I've read anything, I want to pass it on. You know, I want to pass that book on to somebody and said, you know, I think you should read, this is really a great book. So my cousin and I, she lives in the States. So every now and again when we speak on the phone, we talk about, and she just told me she just finished, um, reading Obama's book. I'm trying to think of the time. I've got it.

And I've started to read it, but she said, it's only taking me a year, she said, in between to read us. I promise line, that's what it's called. I promise. Yeah, still on my shelf. It's just sitting there. I need to get into it. Yeah, I've got it on my bed.

It's on my bed. So I'm trying, the idea is now, is to try and read a couple of pages every night to get through it. but I think he's a life, a bit like Maya Angela, the read is so easy. You get through it so quickly because you just want to, you know, see what's happening on the next page and know what's happening in the next page. It's the best feeling in the world. And also knowing that you can then press it into the hands of someone that you love,

you can share that story. These stories are meant to be shared. I tried to do it with my granddaughter, but she hasn't got the reading bug at the moment. Oh, she'll get it. She'll get there. How old is she? Oh, she's coming up 18. And how does a upbringing compare to yours?

You, of course, we were born in Clarendon, Jamaica in 1952, grew up with your grandmother before emigrating to England at the age of nine to join your mother. Tell me about coming to the UK. Do you remember what your expectations were, how things actually matched up when you arrived? No, he didn't match up. I think I had, I presume back then you didn't have TVs or anything, so you wouldn't see what the country looks like, you know. and I just had this thing about, you know, a house with a big open fire in the middle of it.

And because when you come, he's nothing like that. And to see my grandchildren is a completely different life to what I had. Because my grandmother died when I was quite young, so life changed. Whereas I think my grandmother had a comfort blanket around me. So I knew that sort of love that I had with her. But I didn't find the same thing. because I didn't know my mother. I presume, yes, I've met her, of course, because she's my mother,

but knew nothing about her. And so, seen her for the first time, it was just so different. And I think I grew up feeling different. But I think with my own children, I try to make sure that their lives are where it is that I'm always there for them. Well, there is love to be found everywhere, and that is... Yes, yes. A theme in your fifth and final book this week, Doreen, which is Waiting to Exhale by Terry McMillan.

This book tells the story of four African-American women in their 30s, living in Phoenix, Arizona. When the men in their lives prove less than reliable, the full friends find strength in each other as they struggle to regain stability and an identity that they don't have to share with anyone. because for the first time, in a long time, their dreams are finally off hold. Why did you pick this book? I think there are times for us as women where we, you know, we're holding so much, you know, the lives that we have, the struggles that we have, bringing our children up, the men folk in our lives, you know, sometimes falling short. And, you know, you're constantly holding in, holding in.

in and eventually you're able to breathe, you're able to exhale out. And I think reading that book, that's what I felt sometimes. As a young mother, there are times you are rushing around trying to make sure you complete all your chores and your children are looked after, you know, getting to and from school, you know, the holidays, and you forget about you in all of that. You forget about you. Because During that time, you're not the important one. Your children are. What's helping you get there? You always seem like a beacon of calm, you know, in spite of everything.

It's a book about finding peace and calm and contentment in yourself, knowing that you're enough, that it comes from within, not because of, and in fact, more often in spite of external factors. How do you exhale? I exhale when I see all this stuff I've done. especially for those young people who I've helped who would say without you you've given me so much you know you inspire me in the work that you've done I think last night I was well I was up in Nottingham yesterday and there's this young man from Malawi and you know he's raising money to get and equipment, medical equipment, back to Malawi and fundraising. And he came to speak to me and he said, you know, he's in a private school.

He's been given a bursary to go there. And he wants to be himself because I presume the racism and stuff that's there. And he said to me, how do you do that? And I said, you can only be you. and by being you, it doesn't necessarily means that you have to rage. You know, you can get what you want just by being you and showing respect to others. And with some way, they will show respect to you. And he was just a lovely young man.

You know, he's 17 and he's going off to Mullahui in July and bringing some other kids with him. I presume to give them the experience of what it's like because I think he came here as a refugee and he wants to be a doctor and I think he's listening to things like that that makes and gives me hope. Knowing that they can have agency over their own voice is something that has been your message.

Be the voice of change. In this book, these characters, they realise their impact, their importance, their place, that they are enough, that they can be not just anything, but they can be everything. And their identity is really tied up in that. As someone who was married by the age of 20 and then you and your husband divorced in

1999, was it difficult to learn who you were yourself outside of your marriage? Yes. And I think when you're in a relationship, you don't know different. You don't know what's outside. is when you step out of it, I think that's when I realized when I put my God to talk and I thought, enough. And when I step out of it,

I realize what I've missed. Not so, I don't know, it's difficult because being married so young, you know, my sting was born just before us 22. So I didn't have that life before. whereas I think I try to encourage my children, especially my daughter, you know, to go out and enjoy life. You know, there's no reason why you can't. But you can have both.

But I think in some relationship, you don't have both. And I didn't have both. I read somewhere that a moment when you did step back and took stock of your impact like we've been talking about was, when you're in a school in Sydenham, and they told you that you were their live history lesson. They were doing their GCSE and you were part of their coursework. How does that feel? And how does that make you feel about finding your voice

and your legacy and your importance in the world? It's important and I'm sort of pleased that I'm in a position that young people can see that. I want to talk to me about it. Because I think life is very short, and Stephen's death has taught me that. Stephen's death has taught me that. And I think what I've always wanted to say, oh, I looked for young people to understand. You need to make the most of what you have now.

Enjoy it to the best of your ability. You know, challenge where you need to challenge, but at the same time to be as happy as you can. If there's something in your life that you need to change, then you change it. Because it's important. I think what has happened in the last 29 years and the changes has taken place is only people at myself who have stood up to the authority,

who has stood up to society and said, no, this is not right. And I like to be able to be in a position to help guide them into them so that they can make decision for themselves. Use life chances that's there for them and don't take no for an answer. From a very personal standpoint,

can't thank you enough for that work that you've done and for showing us that we do have that voice and we will continue to question everything. So thank you. I've got one final question for you, Doreen. If you did have to choose, if you had to choose just one book from your list as a favourite, which one would it be and why?

I think I come back to My Angela's book. Yeah. You know, I know why the case. Well, I've been singing since then, 1993. I know you the words singing, but I've been using my voice to bring to the attention of those who are willing to listen, the discrimination that happens within the black community. And that needs to change. Equality means equality.

it's not a half-bake things that it only means equality for some, it means equality for all. And I think that's where my voice, I like to think, as has helped, and help young people to use their voice to ask for equality. Well, thank you so much for lending your voice to us today on this podcast, and absolutely wonderful choices of books. And it's been such a pleasure to talk to you about life, and literature. I've been Vic Hope

and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast please rate and review this podcast. It's the easiest way to help spread the word about the female talent that you've heard about today. The Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast is brought to you by Bayleys

and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next time. Doreen, thank you so, so much.