Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S5 Ep5: Bookshelfie: Joy Crookes

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

Singer and songwriter Joy Crookes talks about rude awakenings and the feeling of being ‘slapped in the face’ by books. Joy was initially recognised in 2013 for her cover of Hit the Road Jack which she posted on YouTube, gaining over 600,000 views (one of whom was to be her manager). Three years later, she released her debut single, New Manhattan, at just age 17. She went on to release her debut EP, Influence, with Speakerbox and Insanity Records, performing one of the songs on global music platform COLORS. Since then, she’s won two UK Music Video Awards, a Remarkable Women Award and performed at Glastonbury Festival. Her music focuses on themes of mental health, relationships and culture. Joy’s book choices are:  ** All About Love by Bell Hooks ** Salt by Nayyirah Waheed ** Girl Woman Other by Bernardine Evaristo ** To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee ** I Am Malala by Malala Yousafzai Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season five of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women.   Don’t want to miss the rest of Season Five? Listen and subscribe now!   This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Star Wars Andor streaming exclusively on Disney Plus. Cassian Ander, Empire is choking us. I need all the heroes I can get. From the creators of Rogue One. There is an organized rebel effort. Get a hunt started. Witness the beginning. This is what revolution looks like.

Of rebellion. I'm tired of losing. Wouldn't you rather give it all up to something real? Star Wars Andor. Original series streaming September 21st, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Vic, you look about 16 this one.

I'll take that. I wonder why. Do you think it's the light? It's like the tracky, the lashes, the lack of makeup. My lashes are still on. I like the head's like down here. It's so cute. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast.

Celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives. all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope and I am your brand new host for season five of the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast, the podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. We have a phenomenal lineup of guests for 2022. I guarantee you'll be taken away plenty of reading recommendations. Hello and welcome to today's episode of Boot Shelfy. I'm Vic Hope and I'm so excited.

to be a host this season. Also excitingly, this year's Women's Prize shortlist is out now. And the six amazing authors and their books can all be found on our website, wwwwomensprizefiction.com. Today, I have the absolute pleasure of chatting to sing a songwriter Joy Crooks about her favourite books written by women. Born and raised in Elephant Castle, Joy's come such a long way from recording a cover of hit the road jack with a friend in a bedroom at 14 years old, which then went viral on YouTube. After being nominated for the Brits Rising Star Award, placing forth on the BBC Sound Poll,

Joy went on to become the most widely tipped artist of 2020, and her since were not one, but two UK music video awards for her song, Feet Don't Fail Me Now, from her debut album skin, which was released to critical acclaim is so, so good. Her music's been described as a melding of pop, and B and soul, her tracks, tackling topics like mental health,

relationships, culture and her love of South London. It was an honour to present her with her Musician of the Year award just last month at the Remarkable Women Awards. Welcome to the podcast. Joy, hi-ya, how are you? I'm good. I always feel like I sound like not the person

that you're describing. Why do you feel that? As soon as I start talking. Well, it was just as soon as I started speaking, and I'm in a bathrobe and freshly dyed hair, I feel like it's just not giving any of the things that you said. But hello, thanks so much for having me on. Your bathrobe looks very cosy to be honest. It's so good and it's floor length. Jeez. You've made it. I told you, I said it in the intro. Yeah, she's worked hard and now she's got a floor-length bathrobe. I'm so pleased to have you on the podcast. We've spoken

about music many times before and it's been such a pleasure to watch your career over the last few years. We even chatted about your domestic space, about your home for a show at the beginning of the pandemic, but we get to talk about books now, and this is such uncharted territory. Like, I don't know. Are you a big reader? What kind of books do you gravitate

towards? I've never been a big reader, and I don't say that proudly. I just always struggled with my attention span, which kind of led me on to reading things more like poetry. and I read lyric books as well, which is kind of like,

I read a lot of lyric books. I love lyric books. I've got like Leonard Cohen's lyric book here and Van Morrison's lyric book. But I do read. And when I, I'm kind of one of those weird readers where if I read something I like, I'm obsessive, and I read it in a day. And then I don't read for six months.

And I've always been like that. It's just like I don't have an incredible attention span, but I wish that I did. What is it about poetry? about lyric books that has you so frenetically thumbing through them? They just make me think of songs and like, you know, pentameters and rhythm and how do they say so much or so little? Because that's the type of writing that I do, which doesn't mean that like novels and fiction and nonfiction books aren't as important they are. It's just that

I feel quicker gratification with poetry and lyric books. But I say that and I have a I've read books that have changed my life. And these books that I've put down or put forward for today are definitely books that have changed my life. I know there's some poetry in there. And as a songwriter, you know, you've just said, you feel like you connect to that mode of expression. But when did you find your voice?

When did you find that mode of expression for yourself? When did you begin songwriting and why? I began songwriting when I was 12 just because I was bored and I've always had like a lot on my chest in the sense that I always had a lot to say but not necessarily knew how to say it. And so I thought that songwriting naturally was the way of doing it. I didn't think that writing a diary or anything

was quite as gratifying. And again, I've always been quite obsessed with this idea of you can say so much with very little. Yeah. It's kind of like why I loved watching people cast each other at school. Yeah. I love like a really creative... It's like, it's just like you have to be quit.

Yeah, you have to be quit. And it's also like, wow, you really just like went for someone's whole family in like 15 seconds. Were you a big reader at school? Like, I mean, you said you started songwriting at such a young age. So you obviously interested in words. I forced myself. Yeah. I forced myself. Yeah. Like my dad would make me read the whole reading list before I'd even gone into the next year of school.

So that's, I mean, that's proper. Yeah. Yeah. I still haven't read like enough of the classic. Well, I've read a few, but yeah, no, it just, it wasn't like voluntary. It was kind of like, you have to do this. It's just like the joy of having immigrant parents, you know. And no vacancies and no vacations. I know it so well.

My mom's Nigerian and there's no way that she would have stood for us being in this country and having this education without doing it properly. Yeah, yeah, bare minimum is never an option. Oh, no, no, no, no. never are you grateful for that now so many years on definitely i really am but also it's just informed my work ethic and i've always had like quite a strong work ethic and i grind down a lot on myself and make sure that i'm always trying my best so yeah do you think it has well let's talk about the books that have shaped you um as well as your background your upbringing your parents i'm

sure we'll discuss them too and your first bookshelfy book in is bell hooks all about love. Bless you. It's okay and you've got the book in front of you as well. Oh my gosh. Do you have a pile of the books that we're discussing with you? I've got two here. I mean, no one's done that. Just so you know no one's done that so far in the podcast. I didn't do it purposely, no offense to it, but it's just been on with them. Listen, you keep fluttering their eyelashes. It's not doing anything. for me. He built me up and then shot me down. Fine, Joy. I'm going to tell anyone listening who doesn't know about this book a little bit about it. This enduring classic is the acclaimed

first volume in feminist icon and visionary Bell Hooks's love song to the nation trilogy. All About Love looks at the root causes of our polarised society and also how learning to love can heal the divisions that cause suffering. Joy, why did you choose this book? I just saw it on a lot of brown girls I respects like coffee tables. I know that sounds like a strange thing, but it's like if a couple of my girls have got the same book on their tables, I'm like, well, it's like a matter of time until I read it. It's a recommendation that you can, you know, you know, is being vouched for. For me, Bell Hooks is so viscerally rousing. Like her work is a real living thing that exists as part of us, a society.

for our society. The same is true of music, like beyond the likes and awards and chart positions. Why do you do it? Why do you want to put work into the world? Pretty much for the same reason. I think that like what Felhooghs bangs on about is kind of what Marvin Gay was banging on about. It's kind of what like Solange in her own way is banging on about. I think that like love is literally the message. it's everything and and that's not just relationship love it's like all-encompassing love it's understanding what love is it's understanding how when we love right and when when we um approach things like this whole self-help kind of um generation we're in where people are becoming more spiritual and meditative and stuff it's it's about applying that to the collective as opposed to it

being an individualistic journey. And I think that's where we're going wrong. And I just think it's very interesting how when you learn to love and you can define love and that love is never taught, how we apply that into our day to day and into our community. And when I say community, I don't mean necessarily where you live. I also mean like your friendships and the people that are in your life and how that can lead to progression. and I think that it proves how political love can be as well and in the best way, not in a bad way at all, it can move.

And I think that that's always what I've been interested in. I think that almost studying love is like an incredible thing and it's something that we never get to study. We just experience or think we experience. Yeah, and you learn over and over again that the last time maybe wasn't it. you keep re-learning about love. You're right, we don't learn about it.

We don't understand it. We have to learn about it through the music that we listen to, through the poems that we read. How did you feel when you read this book? How did it make you feel? It just slaps me of the face every time I read this book. It's like, it's a really slow read because it's like, it's just a bit rude.

Like, Bell Hooks really is not holding back. And you're having to confront things that you're not necessarily. so even ready to confront. I was like, whoa, in the first like 10 pages, I was like, what do you mean? I was sitting on a beach crying my eyes out just because it's so real. She doesn't hold back, you know? So I always explain to people, if you read this book, get ready to be punched in the face. Someone told me they didn't like the book and I was like, I don't like you. No, because it's more than just like a bit of a subjective opinion on a piece of literature. It's like, this is how we feel. This is how we process. This is who we are.

If you can't get on board with that, who are you? Yeah, I literally can't like you, nah, emotional intelligence zero, to be honest. You know what? I think Bell Hooks of Poetry and words are my most shared on Instagram. You know, you feel like you want to pass it on. You're so compelled to pass it on to someone else because they might relate. They might feel something. It might make something makes sense for them. So there's a real legacy in that. And she, of course, sadly passed away in December. What does her legacy mean to you?

Well, she's immortal now through her writing. And I think that we are so fortunate to have Bellhook's literature near us and at arm's reach because I think that she has the capability, particularly for communities that haven't necessarily felt loved and have been marginalised and have purposely not been taught love, unfortunately, to love and to be loved and to accept and want to give love.

And I think that, I mean, for that reason, she'll live on forever as far as I'm concerned. And also just her writing is fantastic. So how could she not? Bailey's is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women,

celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Looking for a treat to pair with your favorite book, Bailey's is the perfect accompaniment to enjoy either over ice or over coffee. Star Wars Andor, streaming exclusively on Disney Plus.

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I'm tired of losing. Wouldn't you rather give it all to something real? Star Wars Andor, original series streaming September 21st, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required T-s-N-Case Apply. Let's move on to your second book, Shelfy Book, which is Naira Waheed's Salt. After struggling to publish Salt, this was a self-published volume of poetry, which is perhaps from one of the most famous Instagram poets. put that inverted commas, it explores the realities of multiple identities. I wouldn't say she was.

I wouldn't say she was. I feel like Rupi Kaua got all of the, this is where my controversy begins. This is where controversy. No, go for it. I think this is where, this is where Rupi Kawa comes in. And actually, I think that it's been cited a lot that Rupi Kau has taken a lot of inspiration in quotation marks from Nayao Waheed. and I guess you could be seen as Instagramable

because it's quotable and it's short but I would never like, I don't want to do a dirty like that I think that like the Instagram, the Instagram poet is Rupi Kawa. The Instagram poet is not Nairu. Like she's the poet. She's the poet.

No, no, no, no, because you know what? I was once talking to Ursula Daily Ward who also gets sort of touted around. Do you know her, she has that book called Bone and she's an amazing poet. She also gets touted as an in, Instagram poet. She kind of embraces the title because she's like, actually, I do, I do not subscribe to it only being readers of books who get to consume and like feel anything

from my poetry. I'm completely here for it being in this shareable form. That's how flipping it positively, which makes her obviously like a great human being that she can flip it. But I just think like to a, to a listener, I don't think Instagram poet is definitely, it's not, it's, it's, giving flaccid. It doesn't shine you in the light. Yeah, it doesn't show any in the light that maybe Well, that your work deserves. And it is, I mean, it's, it's a work. It is a work, this piece. It explores a realities of multiple identities, language, diasporic life, pain through really brief, but really beautiful lines full of power.

Why does this resonate with you, Joy? I think I was on the seventh page in. I start crying. I mean, same as Velhoops. It's when it just punches you in the face. It was like, how day you would like four lines do that to me. It's simple, it's evocative, it's, it's so real. And it's all good and well, like having these Instagram quote type beat poets.

But knowing you're or Waheed is the one who does it the best by and well. Like, she, I don't know, it just, it just smacks me in the face again. and there's like two particular poems that really like get to me every time I read them there's one that she wrote about cruel mothers there's one that she wrote about being an African-American woman and the idea of mother tongue and there's one more about how what love feels like and then yeah she's just she's super talented and also I love the fact that it's all about her work and not about her she's not a she's not a brand, she's very much a person that writes this poetry and you take it or leave it.

I feel like with poems you really notice how immensely beautiful even the darkest times can be. It sort of shines a light on that in, as you say, in a punch, in this short, sharp form. And some of the subject matter of your music is difficult. and you express things that have been difficult, especially when it comes to battles with mental health. How do you make beautiful something that is intrinsically ugly? It's a really good question. I think that's just like it's something I've done my whole life.

And I think the reason why I've done that my whole life is because in the last, especially in the last few days I've realized like I literally feel I've never felt like I belong to anything and that's like the nicest and like the harshest thing I think I've thought about in a while like I never felt like anything has ever been quite consistent enough for me to belong to it

or maybe I'm just not consistent enough and I think that because I've always felt that way like take being Bangladeshi Irish never being anyone else that was the same mix. And even if I haven't met people that are mixed, it's not ever the same experience, it's a shared experience, it's never the same. I just feel like I've always had to make the things

that I might find ugly or other people might find ugly, like growing up in Elephant and Castle and it being named a shit hole. And then how do I make that beautiful? And I think the only way that you can make something ugly beautiful is by embracing it. and by allowing it to be whatever it wants to be, as opposed to trying to box it or to label it

or to change it into something that it's not. And that applies to everything, I think, but embraces the only way. And that takes a lot of courage as well. We talk so much about belonging, don't we? and this pursuit of identity through belonging. But as you just said, and I completely agree with you, also coming from a mixed race family.

And growing up in Newcastle now. Growing up in Newcastle, yeah. No, exactly the same. There was no other brown people where I was from. There was no other brown people in my school. You realise as time goes by, and this is what has made me really fine contentment, I don't belong anywhere, but as a result, I belong everywhere.

And I feel like there are songs and yours are included in this that that kind of help validate that for you and help you realise that. And you're like, okay, I'm all right with her. Do you ever find that in writing like this? 100%. Because she's so open about the lack of belonging. It makes you feel like you belong to the book

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There is also this amazing storytelling, even if it's so brief, it's so evocative and so compelling. Has storytelling always been a big part of your life, your family, your culture? Was it given to you by your parents? It's definitely a huge part of my cultures, particularly Irish culture. In Irish poetry, there's a hell of a lot of storytelling. In Irish singing and literature, it's all about storytelling. It's like the way that Irish history has also been passed down is through storytelling.

The Irish people will take your side in Dublin, in Dingell, wherever, and tell you a story. It's just a huge part of who we are as a people. My dad used to sit me down and read me, Philip Larkin poems. and make me recite them and Seamus Heaney and Yates and we used to have this Irish poetry book called Poir Amitah. So it's always been a part, yeah. And also just like on the Bangladeshi side too,

you know, they're both countries that have been affected by war, colonisation, decolonisation. And so storytelling is really important because our histories have been under the threat of being erased. So yeah, it's a rebellious act and a protest for my cultures, I think. Your third book, which is Girl, Woman, Other, by Bernardine Everistow. Have you read this? Absolute legend, Bernadine.

Oh my gosh, yeah. I was actually, so I was a judge on the Women's Prize last year, and Bernardine was the chair of judges, and I'd read her book just shortly before we started the process. I was kind of in awe of her, and it is, it's just a journey of a novel, isn't it? It's just, like, it's just fantastic. It's such a good book. It's fab.

It's so fab. obviously deservingly propel Bernardine to international fame. It won the 2019 Booker Prize. It was also shortlisted for the Women's Prize in 2020. It is an original and rich tapestry just woven from the lives and the loves of a dozen black British women. Tell us about this book. When did you first read it?

I read it on holiday two years ago. I couldn't put it down. I got to a third character and I was like, what do you mean? Yeah. Also, how are you doing this? How are we weaving? How are we getting here? I just want to do it.

But also like, why have we not? Why have we not? Like, why is this not more of a thing as well? Like, the way that, I don't want to say too much because I really don't want to spoil what the book's about. And I really want people to read it. I just think that it's so, there's a character that really, really,

a lot of the characters actually flawed, but there's a character where we kind of find out what her actual ethnicity is at the end of the book. And that that story flawed me. Without giving any spoilers, why did it resonate with you, do you think? Because it, you know what it is? Like, this might be a little bit of a hot tape, but I think that the book really teaches you that we all,

including brown women, like for me as a brown woman, and I don't know if it's the same for you, I don't want to speak about half of you. But, like, I don't know. definitely suffer from unconscious bias. I'd like to think that I'm this liberal person, but like hell no, like I grew up in the UK, why wouldn't I suffer from unconscious bias?

Why wouldn't I be slightly sexist? Why wouldn't I be slightly racist? Like, I've grown up in a place that is founded on all of those things. So when you read a book like Girl, women, other, and you're finding out about these women and you're kind of making assumptions about them, and then you just get shagged by the reality of these women. I don't mean.

It kind of teaches you. You know, you ain't shit. It doesn't matter if you're also brown, if you also grown in, like, grown up in South London or in an ethnic minority area or you have immigrant parents. It doesn't matter. Like, you are just as mash up in your brain as everyone else.

And that's kind of what my song Feet Don't Fill Me now is about as well. It's just like, you know, like, it's so much easier to cop out than actually really try and decolonize your mind and, like, unpack and unlearn. And what Bernardine does is just teaches you that we all have so much to unlearn. And it's so easy to make assumptions about women, particularly women, particularly black women. And then nothing is ever as you expect. And of course, like, as a brown woman,

in my own way, I understand that. Like, people project onto me all the time. People stereotype me all the time. You know, like, oh, I'm going to say, but just stupid things get said to me all the time, especially being in the public eye. But for them to that be applied, but the other way around, and for me to learn my biases through such an incredible book, I don't know, I just thought it was genius. I thought it was so smart. And you know what? I think that progression all starts with accountability. And it's not about pointing fingers. It's actually pointing fingers at yourself and going, what do I have to unlearn? It's holding a mirror up. I think the best novels, the best literature, not only change the way you look at the world, but change the way you look at yourself.

and this is a novel which absolutely does that. And what you're saying about being a brown woman, almost feeling like you're absolved of any accountability before realising you have internalised a lot of things. And as like a light-skinned brown woman as well, I cannot ever ignore that I have afforded certain privileges and it's important to address them, to acknowledge them. We also both have,

like brown mothers, right? Yeah. And white fathers, I'm assuming your dad's wife. Yeah. Which is, it's different, it's different depending what you're around it is. I was talking about this. But it's like in, in the book it really, really goes in about having an ethnic mother too and what that means.

And when your mother is darker skin too, I think that's like, I think that's something that a lot of, we don't talk about enough. But that's, yeah, it's definitely set me up in a certain way, having your, mother that's darker skin. I can't pretend that I understand the struggles that she has been through because they are so different to my own. She's also enriched me. Like if I didn't have a dark skin, if my mum wasn't African, if my mum wasn't Nigerian, she wouldn't have been doing my hair. She wouldn't have been giving me the food that I grew up eating and I wouldn't be connected to my culture in the same way if my dad was dark skin and that's just the truth of it. So I'm very,

very grateful, very grateful for that. And this book is all about that sort of ancestral history and that bloodline and the way that culture is transferred from one generation to the next. Is that something you've always been interested in since you were a child? Were you interested in your heritage? Yeah, ever since I was a teenage, I'd say. When I was a child, yeah, but it was less emotionally intelligent and conscious. It was kind of just like, I took whatever was fed to me, if that makes sense. But now as an adult, yeah, definitely. I'm really, really interested. And as a teenager, I got super interested as well. And I know you've incorporated audio of your family in your music. Why is it important to you for them to be a part of all these

different parts of your life? It's just context, to be honest. It's just context. I think it's really important that like in the body of work to understand a bit more about the body of work, context is needed and I didn't have to do it. Obviously, music is all about interpretation, but I think that art is about interpretations and it's subjective. But I wanted to be able to really like tell my story. Yeah. Well, what I really love about your music is that it, it sort of has these different worlds that are enveloped in it,

that it evokes a reds in a magazine. She may not be out of school yet, this from a while back. But what she lacks in experience, she certainly makes up for in sonic dexterity. From, you know, attending a jazz and blues workshop as a child to publishing Laura Marlin covers to reggae on YouTube at 13. into teaching yourself to play guitar and piano and bass, how did you bring it all together

and how did you find your voice? I think I'm still doing that. I don't know if I've found it yet. And I don't know if I want to. It's a constant journey. Yeah, I kind of want to keep going with whatever is going on now. I think I just, I think I'm quite disciplined and I just try a lot.

And I keep going and I keep banging out of songs and seeing what happens. For me, it's like, in order to get the bozzai, I have to kind of hit around the board. And I'm just trying. I'm just experimenting. And what I do know is it feels right. And when it feels really right, then I know I've hit the boarzai. But yeah, I'm just, I'm trying stuff out.

Your fourth book, Shelfy book, is To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee. Published in 1960, this book has become a classic, hasn't it? Harpoly's cast of unforgettable characters have passed into literary, folklore, as has the unflinching and compassionate way that Lee wrote about the brutality of racism in the deep South. Joy, why is this on your list? It was like the first book I ever read that really addressed race, particularly race in America and civil rights. I know I had a lot of questions that I didn't understand why I was asking myself. I used to say stuff like, why does it feel like our people are angry or why is it feel like black and brown people are angry or why is

their tension or why is there this and that and I don't know how to answer that my emotional intelligence was growing and I could feel people but not have the answers and then when I read something like to kill a mockingbird as a child I was like yeah okay cool yeah the world is just as fucked as I thought it is yeah pretty much I remember I remember being triggered I think when you're a kid you have this really intensely clear moral compass because you're like well that's right and that's wrong it's you're not you're not um stained yet by all the other the stuff that you have to navigate just to get through life. So I remember seeing how wrong injustice was or how wrong racism was and being like, well, that's obvious. And I read this book

and it almost triggered me. It sort of mobilised me. I remember finding my activism ignited and feeling really galvanised. I was like, no, no, no, it is wrong. Maybe we could do something about it. We see the story through the eyes of Scout, of course, the narrator. She's strong will. She's a child. But do you remember identifying with her at all? Yeah, I guess for me it was just like the, the level of confusion, I think. Yeah. It's a weird thing. It's like you're really young and you kind of know in your instinct if something's wrong.

But because you're young and because you know that a lot of the time when you try and stand up, even when you're young as a young woman, you try and stand up, there's a massive chance that no one's going to listen to you. So I think that like knowing that I wasn't the only like young person that might have felt that way, I guess. It's a book that teaches us about the power of. of raising our voice, that maybe our voices can make a difference. Do you ever feel a responsibility being, you know, public facing, having a platform, making music to stand up for things that you think are wrong or right or giving a voice to those who you feel should and don't?

I don't think it's because I'm a public-facing person. I think it's just because I'm just got a big mouth. I've always been like that. I just don't like, I just like, I don't know what it is. Fuckery grinds my gears more than maybe it does for other people, I think. And I know that because of the way my friends deal with things versus how I might deal with things.

But also I'm like, I'm older and I think instead of just cussing or being really wasting my energy, you know, you have to pick your battles. I think that now I have way more eloquence and understanding of where I would want to put my energy and the understanding of accountability, but also understanding that we have to allow people room to understand where they've gone wrong

and to take a step back and hold themselves accountable. We can't just cancel people if they've done something wrong, you know, and I think I have more compassion in the way that I deal with the things that I see as right or wrong, you know. Does that make sense? I feel that. No, totally. used to be very angry.

I used to really not be able to control it at all and would get... I think it's a really immature thing. Yeah, it comes with maturity to, like you, exactly like you said, to pick your battles and be like, is this really the hill that you want to die on? Although it's not really that fair, because for the most part, I always wanted what was right and the fact that you have to pick which right thing is more important than the other to, to like to go with is a real shame and it says a lot about our society. but it is also a maturity thing to know that I've got to protect myself, my energy as well.

But also knowing that there are some things that you can't change and you have to walk away from. What frustrates you most? What is the battle that you feel over the course of your life you have picked and have dedicated yourself to? Probably being a musician. And that is a battle. It's not easy, man. That's true. So obviously there were like big fuckeries and stuff that was just awful.

But yeah, if I have a, when I have a child, my youth has never been in music. I don't care how talented they are. Really? No way. The stress. No, I'm joking. My child can do whatever they want. Yeah, no, I just, my headphone just got locked under my chair.

Yeah, just, it's such a hard question. I could obviously come up with a more profound answer. There are no better friendships than those formed around brilliant books. And since you're listening, we're guessing you love books as much as we do. The Women's Prize has created an exclusive community that gives you a bookish backstage pass offering surprises and freebies plus unmissable reading recommendations and book chat from my founder friends, including me, Vic Hope. Search for Women's Prize friend to become a friend today.

We cannot wait to meet you. Your fifth and final book this week is I am Malala, which I feel like we all are very, very aware of and have been over the last few years. The book Charles Malala's extraordinary journey from a remote valley in northern Pakistan to the halls of the United Nations and winning the 2014 Nobel Peace Prize. Why have you picked this? It's just like bad bitches from South Asia, you know what I mean? Yeah, man. Like, I just need to know more. And Milana's story is just impeccable and surreal.

And there's a lot of controversy around her from the South Asia community. A lot of men love to talk rubbish about her. I've met a lot of men, South Asian men, that have tried to talk rubbish about Malala, which I find so interesting because I turn to them and go, when you were 15 in your way to school, did you get shot in the head by the Taliban? I don't think so.

I don't think so. And her courage and her strength and also her relationship with her father, why she's called Malala. Everything about this woman is symbolic. And yeah, I mean, I'm a brown woman. So I just,

not that I, you know, all brown women have to read all brown women's books, but there aren't that many of us that are so public facing in the way. and Malala not only is public facing in the West, she's a global, like, activist from 15 years old. Yeah. Making huge difference. Making a huge difference. I mean, she's unbelievable.

So I can't not read her boat and I read it when I was kind of in my late teens and it made me feel really empowered and strong and it gives you a lot of perspective as well, you know, how privileged we are to live here. and not have to fight the Taliban every day. It's true when you put it in those terms. It's just, that's bizarre what she's had to go through. And then on top of that, like, she's gone through all of that and she's not even having a break. She's just out here like fixing the world. How could you not love her?

I don't get how men chatched shit about her. I'm like, this is just classic man behaviour. But okay, cool. Well, they manage to chat shit about quite a lot of things. And it's baffling. Yeah. So, I mean, it's not hugely surprising. They manage it.

They manage it. As a British, South Asian, young woman making music on an international stage, how important is representation to you? What would you say to any little girl looking at you now and thinking, what do I do? What do I put into the world? We're witches. We have incredible amounts of intuition.

And the sooner you become in tune with that, and the sooner you become in tune with what you want and what you think isn't right for yourself and learn how to say no, but also as cheesy as it sounds, learning to love yourself and accept who you are and not just, you know, acceptance isn't like a thing that happens overnight. It's something that you're doing your whole life. But the more love that you can give to yourself, the easier things will be to navigate because you'll know what you should be putting yourself into

and what you shouldn't. In this book, Malala talks about the story. strength that she draws from her father, from her family more generally. Where do you draw your strength from? How do you keep going in spite of anything and everything? Generally food really helps. I just like, you know, because it's actually a thing like, I think it's part of my culture, but in Iranian culture when someone dies, they like grieve and eat at the same time. I think eating is like almost like a, it's an active resistance. Because if you don't eat, then your body will shut down.

So that helps. Love helps and having the most wonderful people around me and being fortunate enough to have those people around me for a really long time. That's my family, that's my friends that I've had for a really long time. And also like myself, when I really like me and I really get on with me and I spend time with me and I make time for me, that's when I really can navigate much easier.

As I said in that advice, it's like I, when you remind yourself that you're loved by yourself, you're not looking for that anywhere else, you know? You're kind of settled in here and then everything is so much easier to work out and what you want and what you don't want

is easier as well to know. with it. It's the ultimate peace and power and freedom, which for me is the Holy Trinity of contentment. And I love that you've mentioned all modes of nourishment, you know, we're talking about literature and how it nourishes us, food which literally nourishes you and love for others, the love that you feel from others and love for yourself, it's a nourishment, is it? Do you feel nourished? Right now? Yeah. Well, yeah, with you even if, With those eyelashes, how can I not? I'm really happy that they're getting such air time.

There was one question actually I did have, when it comes to representation, obviously, we're trying to open doors for those who come after us. We want to support others. We want to support others from our communities. But also another part of that is celebration. And it's something that you do, you celebrate. Well, actually, one song in particular, London,

mind. You celebrate immigrants who make up this country. You sort of talk about the invisible people, the way that London belongs to everyone. We are a city of immigrants or a country of immigrants. How much has that been something that you've been very aware of throughout your life or really wanted to shout about? Why are you celebrating it? Because it's just the truth. You know, it's like Britain would never be Britain had it not colonised.

the whole world and then taken all of these incredible things from all of these different countries. And the very least, and the bare minimum, is embracing the diaspora that have decided to come to this country and build their lives here. So do you feel like you understood that just from osmosis, from what's going on around you from an immigrant family, or was that something that you learned actively? Osmosis, definitely osmosis, growing up in Elephanton Castle with the immigrant family, with lots of immigrant families from all over the world. say London was the most integrated city, you know,

we're fortunate enough to live besides so many different cultures and backgrounds and people, that it was hard to not be a sponge to that. Joy, if you had to choose one book from your list as a favourite, and I think this would be tricky because they're all very different, very, like, different pieces of work, very different genres, which one would it be? As in like on a desert island? Yeah.

Probably bell hooks because it takes, like, there's so much unlearning to do but reading the book that the more you read it, the more unlearning you do. And it's like bringing a lesson out with me. And I mean, bringing like a bell-hook's degree out to a desert island. And you can dip in and out as well. It's not just like a linear read. Like you can get what you need when you need it from it.

Exactly. So yeah, I would choose that one. Well, Joy, thank you so much for all the nourishment. I've really, really enjoyed talking to you about books. And maybe we'll get to do it. We talk about music all the time, but this is such a nice change. I've really, really learned a lot and hopefully our listeners have too. So thank you.

Thank you so much for having me. Sorry for all my curse words. You did say early doors about how there is a real creativity in cursing. So I feel like it's kind of a literature in itself. I'll take that. I'm Vicot and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Please rate and review this podcast. It is the easiest way to help spread the word about the female talent.

heard about today. The Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.