Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S5 Ep7: Bookshelfie: Laura Whitmore

Episode Date: June 5, 2022

Presenter, broadcaster and author Laura Whitmore chats with Vick about their early MTV days, Love Island and why women should take up more space in a room. Best known for presenting shows like I’m a Celebrity… Get Me Out of Here! NOW!, Survival of the Fittest and of course, Love Island, she has become a familiar face on our screens. But she’s also a regular voice on her own BBC Radio 5 Live series, The Laura Whitmore Show. She’s an actress, and she’s competed on Strictly and the Great Celebrity Bake-Off! Her self-help book, No One Can Change Your Life Except For You was an instant Sunday Times bestseller, and the paperback is coming out in July. Laura’s book choices are:  ** Animal by Sara Pascoe ** Against Love Poetry by Eavan Boland ** Love Warrior by Glennon Doyle ** Butterfly by Yusra Mardini ** The Girl with the Louding Voice by Abi Daré Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season five of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women.   Don’t want to miss the rest of Season Five? Listen and subscribe now!   This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At Harrison Health Care, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve. Today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com. I'm a big fan of those boys because that's where my first,

my poem went and I just loved them. And I actually felt for me, as much as like having, like Sonny Times bestseller, having my poem on the transport for London board was like, I've seen your name on that board a few times. I've made it.

I get the tube a lot. I get the tube a lot. With thanks to Bayleys, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices, and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world.

I'm Vic Hope and I'm your host for Season 5 of the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. The podcast that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them. We have a phenomenal lineup of guests for 2022 and I guarantee you'll be taken away plenty of reading recommendations. Hello and welcome to today's episode of Bookshelfy. I'm Vic Hope and I'm so excited to be a host this season. Also excitingly, this year's Women's Prize Shortlist is out now and the six amazing authors and their books can all be found on our website, wwwwomensprizefiction.com.com.

Today I have the pleasure of speaking to the brilliant TV and radio presenter and author Laura Whitmore, best known for presenting shows like I'm a celebrity, get me out of here now, survival of the fittest, and of course, Love Island. She's become a familiar face on our screens. But she's also a regular voice on her own BBC Radio 5 live series, The Laura Whitmore Show.

She's an actress as well, having played Cleo Mori alongside Shane Richie, Bill Ward and Stephen Billington in the stage adaptation of Not Dead Enough. She's even competed on Strictly and recently The Great Celebrity Bake Off. Her self-help book, No One Can Change Your Life, except for you, was an instant Sunday Times bestseller, and the paperback is coming out in July. It is so great to have you on the podcast today. Laura, welcome. Yay, thank you for having me on. And I'm so happy that we get to talk about books now because we've just learned that computers are not my thing.

We had a couple of ins and outs getting it. But this is just, this is 2022. We're still doing this. We're still having to connect through so many Zooms and Skype and making the internal mic, the main mic, and then sometimes the video's not working and sometimes we're on mute. But we're here now. And Laura, we have talked about lots of things in the time that we've known each other,

but I don't think ever books. No, it's strange, isn't it? We should. Yeah, but we have. We've worked together. We go way, way back, MTV days. And it's so lovely to see how well you're doing and how great you're doing.

And I know you're always out of business. big supporter of other people as well. And it's just, yeah, just love seeing everyone doing so well now. And we have never talked about clothes. Never talked about. We have talked about. Yeah. We've talked a lot.

So when I first started at MTV and I was a runner and Laura's the presenter, he used to get said clothes, obviously, to wear on the telly. And anything that didn't fit or you didn't want or you'd worn once and, you know, didn't want it to go to waste. He was so kind to me. He used to bring me in these clothes and he'd be like, you could just hate them. And at the time, I had no money. And I will be forever, ever, ever, great.

because it was the most exciting thing in the world. But I also had that stitch. I used to wear the same thing over and over again. I used to wear this denim skirt that was, I don't even know if I ever washed it. I'm like, I really should have worn some of those clothes people sent. But I'm like, no, I'm happy with what I have.

I don't know who I was kidding. No, but in those days, it was like the height of fashion and denim skirt. And we were all really into tights and leggings under the skirts. Oh, tights, I know if I ever shaved my legs. We didn't need to. Well, Laura, I know that you're a big reading. like in spite of the fact we never talked about books together because you sent over 10 book choices then edited it down to seven we had to push to get you to choose just five so it's probably really

safe to say that you are very influenced by books right yeah and I think that probably comes from my mom and just growing up my mom my mom is a big reader and she still has like bookshelves of books and I remember going to the library as a kid and having your membership card and I so love I love Even to this day, we have a new local library that's just opened up. And there's something about the library, the community feel, of getting a book, borrowing a book, and giving it back and passing it on to someone else. And a lot of the books that I mention are kind of books that maybe were given to me as gifts or someone read it and said, you should read it.

And I love that. I like the whole idea of what I suppose a book club is in a way about passing it on. So, yeah, for as long as I know, this has always been books in the house. And I mean, a wide range. I mean, there's all sorts. So I don't want to like be here and be like, oh, hi, breath. I mean, we read everything, everything. What sort of books do you gravitate towards,

or have you in the past sort of change the type of books that you love? I remember my favorite book as a kid was Matilda by Rollsale, and that was a kid who's obsessed with books. I remember my mom had a lot of, my mom read everything, but she did have a lot of self-help books, which I think at the time, I was just like, I couldn't compute my little brain, couldn't compute, like what a self-help book is.

Why are you helping your, like normally a book would be a story or, you know, using your imagination, or it'd be an autobiography, a true story, something based on history. So self-help books took me, and now I am that person who loves a self-help book. I have become my mother. But it took me a while to grasp what that was

and that it wasn't some fluffy, airy, fairy book. Well, you've written your own self-help book. What can tell you to do that? I know. And it was an, it was an, incredible process to write and I feel like writing is a huge legacy you know long after we go these stories are are still there and people can like music we you know we perceive a song to mean so many different things and the author no longer has ownership over it and even you know I've had like I brought

out my first book last year and I've had so many gorgeous messages from people but sometimes people will say oh I read this chapter this chapter and vulnerability and I like this meant this to me and I'm like oh I didn't even think that it could relate to that. And that's the joy of storytelling, be it real stories or not. It's so true. Like what you mentioned about pressing a book into someone's hands, because you feel like it might resonate with them, but it's so open to interpretation and the worlds that we can be taken to could be so disparate and it's so exciting. It's so evocative. Well, let's get into your first bookshelfy book, which is Animal by Sarah Pascoe. Animal combines autobiography and evolutionary history to create a really funny, fascinating insight into the forces that mould and

affect modern women. It's a laugh out loud investigation that helps us understand and forgive our animal urges and insecurities. What do you love about this book? I love Sarah. I love Sarah. I think she's a hugely smart, talented woman. I got this book as a present from my now husband, but it was one of the first things he ever gave me. So we hadn't been dating that. long so it must have been about four or five years ago and he gave it to me as a present that was a good sign I was like okay this is this is okay this is a good we can connect on a level we can connect and as I was reading I was like this is a brilliant book like I feel okay I feel I feel good this is the the right person to be

with and and for me just kind of drawing on things that you you've said there it's you know it's funny it's smart it's sad and it's a conversation about about us humans about our brains about about our bodies, our inner workings. It's all backed up though by science and experiences. And Sarah is just so thorough when it comes to research. I kind of feel like it's a book that feeds your brain, but you can also laugh out loud as well.

It's silly about lots of things and then serious about some. And it's a really investigation to us as humans. And although she's speaking about the female anatomy, me. I think it's an incredible read for any man to read as well. And it's personal. Like she talks a lot about, you know, her body, about consent, about abortion, and about relationships. And this investigation she did, which really made me think. Like whether you want to have children or not, apparently were drawn to somebody, be it, you know, of your same gender or the opposite of sex, you're drawn to somebody that you think would give you a good child.

Right. Whether you want to have children or not. Right. And it says she backs it up by all the signs. She refers to like the animal kingdom and how we're very much like animals. And it's laugh out loud. But then, as I said, there's moments she talks about her own experiences with relationships that are heartbreaking.

And it's the one book I say, everybody should read. You are already a fan of Sarah Pascoe. As you said, she was actually a judge on the women's prize. in 2017. But I'm quite curious about the process of writing when you're known for something else. Like Sarah is a comedian. You're a presenter, broadcaster.

Do you worry about how it's going to be received when you're entering into sort of uncharted territory? The one thing, I don't know if this, did one person tell me this, or have I kind of picked it up from lots of people over the years? Whatever you do, even if it's not how people normally, see you if it's you know you're going down a different lane whatever you do just be good so if you're

going to write a book that people don't think you're you would write just make sure it's a good book so whatever it is same with sarah like she's a she's a comedian she's a brilliant comedian but she also tackles huge issues in a really well thought out way so just i think you can do anything if you're good enough um i'm probably not going to be a stand-up comedian because i don't think i'd be good enough so Give it a guy. Laurie, you're funny. And you're not going to go.

Maybe I would be good. I'm not going to knock myself. But I don't have the time and it takes a lot of time and a lot of honing to be that good of that. And it's a real skill. So I just think whatever you do. This is so well researched. Like this wasn't a book she just wrote over a short amount of time. The same moment when I came to write my book, I kind of felt like it was four years in the writing.

There were a lot of issues I touched on in articles I'd written about before. and we're bringing out the paper back in July and I've written an extra chapter for that but it almost took me a year to write that chapter that chapter so when it comes to when it comes to oh what you know when are you going to write the next book I'm like oh I don't know 10 years yeah I just wrote one seriously

it takes time and you're doing so so many other things I think people don't always realize that and animal is as you say about womanhood in all its guises on every level. And it's about feminism as well. Have you always been a feminist? It's funny, isn't it?

Because feminism is such a... People find it a hard word to define because I guess it's changed and evolved. But I always grew up with this strong female presence. Actually, the first chapter in my book is literally about all the women in my life. And the women that came before me, like my grandmother, my great-grandmother and my mom.

And, you know, I was raised, I have a great relationship with my dad, but it was just me and my mom in the house. And they weren't together. And my mom, I know I talk in my book about like my mom in the 80s, like, you know, she was a career woman. She was working. And I think I was the only one at that time, now it's different, but the only one kind of in the late 80s, early 90s,

whose mom was a full-time, you know, working single mother in 80s, Ireland. And it really kind of, I think, shape me. To think you can do it all. You can have a child. I mean, it's hard. But you can do it. And I think for me, that's what feminism is.

And it's that sisterhood of support. And I even look at the generations before me. And my grandmother, when she was 14, her mom died. And she kind of raised the younger children. And, you know, that's all feminism for me. That's how I define it. It's just kind of this grasp of hardworking women doing great. things. And then I think the issue of equality is something that I've first kind of thought about

with when Mary Robinson was the first president of Ireland, first female president of Ireland, sorry, not first president, first female president of Ireland. And she taught me what feminism was and she was speaking about these issues that I kind of, my little brain was trying to, you know, I'm thinking about his self-help books at home in my mom's bookshelf. And then my brain was just like, it was like a sponge, just absorbing all this information, all these brilliant women around me. Yeah, I think one of my favorite quotes that I've seen of yours is, can you be on the cover of FHM and write about feminists. Yes, you fucking can.

Yes, you can. And I think that's, I think it's better now. I think that these are conversations that we have now, but before they were like, it was one or the other, what box are you in? Yeah. Can you be, can you work for, can you work for MTV? And, you know, you've gone to Cambridge.

Why have you gone, why are you working for MTV? You know, like, like, because I would like to. Why do you do? Why? It's like, because you want to. Because it's fun. Because it's fun. I'm allowed to have a nice stuff.

Yeah, I get asked that question all the time with, you know, I've, my background's journalism. I work on Love Island. I love it all. You know, I'll work on shows that I really like and that I think I can be good at. And that's what it all comes down to, not having to choose. You mentioned before the importance of uplifting other women, supporting other women. You have your podcast as well, hear her voice, it's all about women in music. And it's so full of positivity and ambition. It's infectious. Is this something that you set out to do? I was approached initially by Universal about doing something for women in music,

but I just wanted to do it the right way. And I wanted to be, it's not about me, it's about the artists. And we had some really incredible women speak, like Yola, who's in the new Elvis film, which I can't wait to see, self-esteem, and some really great stories. But I always think when you do a podcast or when you interview someone, and you're probably the same. I never go into it thinking this is what I want them to say.

And I think for this, I was surprised by some of the interviews. The Joys with podcasts is sometimes it's not live radio. You can kind of let people talk and see where it goes. And a very good friend of my Nicola Roberts was on and I know she's always very cautious with interviews

and probably so she should be because, I mean, she's been through it all and her first job ever was very, very, very public. And I just wanted women to have space to talk about things the way they wanted to talk about it. And that podcast gave us that space. And I think it's beautiful. And it's got music in there as well. Star Wars Andor streaming exclusively on Disney Plus.

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We're going to move now on to your second bookshelfy book, which is Against Love Poetry by Evan Boland. It's a collection of powerful poems written against the perfections and idealisations of traditional love poetry, the man and woman in these poems, the husband and wife, and custodians of ordinary, ageing, human love. Tell us a little bit about why this resonated with you. I love poetry and actually so much so that my book,

kind of came about because of a little poem that I'd written that was on the tubes on International Women's Day called She Is You. I wouldn't even compare myself to someone like Ivan Boland. But Ivan Boland first kind of came into my radar when I was at school because you learn about all these poets. And Ireland is a, you know, it's a beautiful island of saints and scholars, as they say. But poetry was always, I guess, a man's preserve in Ireland. And then came Ivan Boland who basically shook this patriarch.

to its roots and kind of changed the canon forever. And for me, it started off, you know, I really got to dissect it through school. And then afterwards kind of became a little bit, not obsessed with her, but what she was talking about as I evolved, and this particular book, I think this has came out just after the millennium against love poetry and me kind of understanding love as I'm getting older and even going back to it more recently, especially when she speaks of marriage and speaking of, like, she, she ended up moving to London when she was little, because her dad was an Irish ambassador in London. And, you know, what is, because I went through like, you know, 14 years ago moving

over from Dublin to London and what that was like and kind of, you know, who am I and still feeling that really strong Irish bond. Also, she went to school with Mary Robinson, who's like my icon, who I mentioned already, the first Irish female president. And, um, you know, And in fact, I think it was when Mary Robinson became president, she actually read out one of Ivan Boland's poems at her inauguration. And it's a poem called The Singers. But this one, it was really hard. I could have just done a whole list of loads of her poetry,

but I picked this one because it's the idea of what love is and how it changes. And this is an ode to her husband. Ivan Boland sadly passed away actually at the very beginning of kind of, kind of lockdown in the pandemic. I always think I'd be really interested if she was still here what she would have thought of the last two years. What she would have written about.

What she would have written about. But back to this, the first half of the book is kind of about the first half of it and the poems are about marriage and what marriage is. And kind of those questions that longstanding couples kind of ask themselves.

You know, the lives that we've lived when we were young and I kind of, not that I'm old now, but you know, there's definitely, you reach a stage where, you know, you're like, you remember back your 20s and your teenagers only. That's gross. That's gross. That's gross. It's gross. I'm in the longest relationship I've ever been.

Yeah. And it honors the, you know, the complications and contradictions of married life. And not just, I guess when you think of, when you think of love and poetry, you kind of think of the romantic aspect of sonnets and, you know, lust. Well, this is kind of finding beauty in the ordinary, in the home drum. And yeah, I love it.

I always think that poetry does that so gorgeously. And having a little poetry book on you at all times that you can just pull out and remind yourself of the beauty that's all around us in the mundane, like you just said, is one of life's little joys. It really helps you turn the grey to like multicolour as you're just walking through the world. and as you said, this collection touches on emigration as well. Yeah. Your Irish heritage is something that I feel is a huge part of you from, you know,

every time I've ever spoken to you, I feel like there's been some, we talked a little bit about Ireland in some way to shape, form, and there's been a story. Yeah. How did you negotiate coming over and holding on to something that is so intrinsically a part of who you are? Yeah, it's difficult sometimes because that sense of belonging. I think we all need to feel like we belong somewhere. I think Irish people have a great sense of community.

No matter where you go in the world, the Irish will find each other. But it's hard as well because it's that sense of finding that belonging but also belonging nowhere. You know, when I first started on MTV and I would pronounce things differently to how Londoners would pronounce things or English people would pronounce things and then think, oh, am I wrong? But then if I pronounce it that way, then people at home will be like, oh, no, look at you, you're a West Britain.

Or you're, you know, you're, you've changed your accent or now you're British. And it's, it's so hard because you feel like you don't fit in anywhere. And I've really kind of been tackling that. And that's why actually that poem that Van Boulden has within against love poetry really resonated with me of your accent changing a little bit. and yeah, the changes of your voice and your accent

and people moving away from the homelands. Of course it's going to change. Of course you're going to adapt. But then not fitting in anywhere. But I'm really lucky, I guess, there's such a close bond between, like, London and just outside Dublin where I grew up because there's a lot of Irish people here. I actually, I love living here because I feel when I grew up in Ireland,

I lived a very sheltered life in some way. I didn't really know many people with other religions or from different backgrounds. You come to London, you see that. And then the way that helps me connect with different groups of people. Like even the area I live in in North London, it's very Irish. But there's a huge Jamaican community and a huge Portuguese community.

And it's like all these people that are just living in this one city. But I'm still navigating what it is to be Irish and that huge longing of home. there's also such a sing-song quality to Irish poetry that I've always been obsessed with since studying at school like oh it's just the lilt you could you could sing these poems they're melodious and so beautiful I'm really I'm really jealous of people who can I waffle on a lot like I waffle no no someone ask me a question no but I'll waffle and I'll waffle while like I'm always really jealous of poets who can say so much in in such a lot.

short space. They can just write one line and it's just created this visual that chapters and chapters could never sum up. Yeah, so evocative and so loaded. We're always told in radio about the economy of words, like get to the funny fast and then get out of there again. And I think that poets would probably make really good radio presenters for that reason. Great advice. Let's move on now to your third book, which is Love Warrior by Glenn. Daniel, a memoir of marriage and self-discovery by New York Times bestselling author Glennon Doyle. The Chronicle of Glennon's personal, beautiful and brutal journey is also the story of the healing that is possible for any of us when we refuse to settle for good enough.

Tell us a bit about this book and when you first read it. And so this would kind of go, I guess, under self-help. It's a memoir, but it serves as self-help. And I actually got it speaking of where you get books from, from my friend, Britt, who lives in L.A. and she gave it to me it must be about five years ago I think came out by five years maybe longer

and I always when someone gives me a book I always make them right in the inside just to remind me and also if I pass it on to someone else if I pass on to someone else that I might eventually get it back so I got it from my friend

Brit who I don't really see a lot and actually we were kind of connected through a mutual friend almost as a friendship date do you ever have a friendship date someone says you get on really well with them You should hang out with them. And it was like a first date with a girl I'd never met before. But I was in LA for a bit.

I didn't really know many people out there. And we just connected. We were very similar. She passed me on this book to read called Love Warrior from Glennon Doyle. And I didn't know who Glennon was then. She's obviously since brought out book Untamed, which was huge. And Love Warrior was big, but I didn't know it. But the very start of this book, the first line.

And I love it. It's, I was loved. If love could prevent pain, I'd never have suffered. And for me, from the first line, I kind of had this realization that it's not about what's going on around you. Like, you can have so much love coming at you. You can have bad things coming at you, but you can have good things coming at you.

But until you love yourself or until it comes from you, the pain won't stop or suffering won't stop. So you can't put that blame on other people, but kind of transcends to different things that I talk about in my book. And actually, I don't know if you ever saw, but I would recommend, I love a bit of Oprah and I love Oprah's Soul Session. Glenn Doyle does one of them. That's just brilliant.

But it's how she writes about it. She writes, you know, from her childhood about being a mother. And there was one concept that she speaks about this being small. She always tried to make herself smaller when she was younger. And she speaks about, you know, her body issues. and, you know, not being comfortable in herself and eating disorders that she had. But on another level that a lot of women try to make themselves smaller in a room

just to not fill that space because we feel we don't deserve that space. And it's okay to take up a lot of space. It's all right. And that's something that clicked with me. You know, when I was younger, you know, you kind of feel smaller when you're in a room and you're unsure and your body physically becomes smaller. we're always trying to, you know, be smaller so we'll fit into clothes or we eat a certain diet and that we don't take up too much space in a room. Literally, we don't take up too much space

in a room. And it kind of knocks that on the head. But it took her a long time to get to that realisation. So I felt very lucky that I read that book when I did because it really helped me grapple things that I was kind of going through in my head. As women, we're so often encouraged to feel that we're either not enough or we're too much. Exactly like you say, make yourself smaller or change something about yourself to fit in with what we're told is good enough. And you've spoken so much about the pressures on young women, the pressures on those, particularly in the public eye.

How do honest and relatable stories like this help you overcome self-doubt? It makes you feel like you're not the only. one that we all doubt ourselves like every single one of us no matter who you are the most successful people in the world the most arrogant people in the world everyone doubts themselves at some time they might they might perceive to be confident but but they're not and I think it's I'm always very cautious sometimes when I talk about myself personally because I feel like things can be misconstrued I have to you have to protect yourself you don't have to give all yourself away so when you're telling stories personal stories you do it your way

in your own time. Glennon does that so well in this book because writing your own book is hugely powerful and you've ownership and control over how you write it and it's not edited in a way that is like a pull quote. So for me telling stories is really important once you get the opportunity to do it in the right way. And I actually had Glenn came on my radio show about two years ago and you know we think it was at the beginning of the pandemic and it was a tough time for so many people but she said if we're not sad we'll never know what happy is which is really simple but we can't be happy all the time but when we go through some really tough time when we get out of it then we really appreciate that and this book I guess it just shows what you can

achieve when you're willing to look at yourself your life she was in a situation which she wasn't happy in and got out of and she made those necessary changes herself because it was only her who could do that it's perspective isn't it and gratitude as well for what we do have that really i feel has been the key to to happiness and self-love do you feel like you're still on a journey of self-love do you think you worked it out oh my god no never well and sometimes i say things i'll say things like to be like just what I like just what I just what I just said there oh to be sad is okay because then you'll appreciate happiness sometimes I'm like fuck that like I don't want to be sad yeah or I'll get myself in a mood about something or I'll blame someone else for something I'll be

like I can't believe they did them so you know even though I'm like well I need to I don't have control over other people it's only myself so I need to watch my reaction and I always try to watch my reaction but sometimes I react the way I don't know what humans react were Because you are a human. Because you are a motion of people. Yes. So often the advice

that you know you would give to someone else, that you would, the way that you would talk to a friend, you find it so difficult to say to yourself, advice to live by yourself because you're a human being. Of course.

And I've been, like when my friends are going through like relationship problems, I'm there with the great advice. Do you think I took it myself back in the day? No, not at all. Have you found Biscateers yet? Biscateers are the original

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I mean, an incredible story, an unbelievable story. Tell us why this book has made your list. I just can't believe this is a real story It is becoming a film But if you had watched this You'd be like This film's a bit far-fetched This couldn't happen Yeah

But it is the most beautiful Needed story When I first read it And actually Again I was very lucky That I actually got to interview Use for it on two occasions But she was a refugee

Who became an Olympian It's a simple story like that And it's a real insight, I guess, to the challenges for those, you know, who are trying to settle into different cultures and nations. And I know that's something that's going to resonate with so many people today when you look at what's happening in Ukraine and the movement of people and the amount of refugees all over the world. But this, I read this book and then I interviewed her. And then there was even more. I got from her having read the book and then her talking about things. And there's one little thing I'm just going to talk about now because it really hit me.

And it was basically she was, they were escaping from Syria. They paid a lot of money. They had a lovely life and people forget that. When you're a refugee, like most refugees have lovely lives at home. Like she had a lovely life, a lovely family. Her and her sister had to flee. You know, the family broken up. And she was, she's a really good swimmer.

She did swim lessons. So when their boat broke down and they were trying to get to Greece, and her sister jumped off the boat and pushed the boat. And I mean, she describes it's so much better than I'm describing it now. So please just read the book. But there's one bit where she said that they were coming in the freezing water into land onto this beach. And, you know, the hours and hours are what they've gone to,

not knowing if they'd all survive. And looking at this beach and all these twinkly lights and knowing there were people on that beach who were like on their holidays or ordering a cocktail or having this very different life to her, basically hanging on for her life. And I think it really affected me when you look at what's happening in Ukraine. And we're sitting here, you know, in the comfort of my own home, talking about books that I really enjoy on my laptop.

And like the biggest tackle I've had to deal with is my, I couldn't make the sound work. And it's this juxtaposition we have of, you know, these normalities happen day to day and these other people living these horrific situations. but you kind of have to have both. That's what the world is. And she talks about it with such understanding, but it's her fight, her passion. When she's starting this new life,

ending up at the Olympics and swimming there and speaking about it. So do you know, I just, I needed this book because sometimes I get bogged down by things that aren't important. And then I read this, talked to her and was like, shut up, Laura. What was she like in person? And how does she make you feel when she was in beauty?

I want to be her friend. Like, just like a cool, lovely girl that likes fashion. Would probably talk to us about clothes, enjoys music and just a person. And sometimes we kind of think it's a them and us if you're not coming from a war-torn country or somewhere that's gone through a lot of devastation. And I guess one thing that she's still doing is,

like, she's continuously fighting for, you know, the dignity. and well-being of countless refugees. And that dignity is that respect and the importance. I know she's an ambassador now, a Goodwill ambassador for the UN. And I think for a lot of young women who are finding themselves displaced, to have her as a role model is beautiful. So brilliant.

It's important for us always to remember that where we're born is simply luck. That's what it is. separating us at birth at all. You could be born in a war-torn country. You could be born in East London and be sipping on an artisanal coffee while doing a podcast in a studio.

But we are all human beings and as you say, we should constantly be reminded of the need to respect one another. And I think that's what books can do. They can teach us empathy because we walk a day in other people's shoes. We walk a day in so many other people's shoes.

Every novel does that. That's why reading is so important. And you talk there about the drive and ambition and passion and fire. What gives you your drive and ambition and passion and fire? What keeps you going even when life sometimes feels trickier? My favourite word is hope because no matter what the situation, I always hope it can be better. And that doesn't mean it will be, but it's that hope.

And I think if we didn't have that a hope, like humanity is lost. Because sometimes, you know, you watch the news and it just feels like you go online. There's a lot of hate. There's a lot of anger. But you hope that it will be better. You hope that there's people like Yusra Marnidi. And even, do you know what, during lockdown, I remember it's the first time I got to know my neighbors, that community feel. And I thought.

And I loved it. I was like, I've lived here for like three years. And I didn't know my neighbors. My next-door neighbor was baking every Sunday and, you know, sharing it with everybody and we talk to each other. And it's trying to find the good and the bad and that hopefulness. And I need that. I cling on to that. And that's what kind of pushes me to kind of keep going because, I mean, there's a lot of knocks.

Sometimes you feel like you're being, you know, knocked from all sides and it's exhausting. And then one person will say something to you, you know, saying, oh, I really admire when you said this or that really, I was going through a tough time. and I read this thing that you wrote and it really, really helped me. And I'm like, oh, okay, it doesn't matter if everyone's knocking you and you've helped this one person. Like, you know, that's what gets me through. Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely. I saw a quote. I think it was like on the tube the other day, you know, that they write on the boards as you're going down the escalator. Yeah. And it said, have hope, but not expectations. Look forward, but don't just stand there waiting. And I feel like that's what you just really perfectly summed up.

I'm a big fan of those boys because that's actually, that's where my first, my, my, my, my home went and I just loved them and actually felt for me as much as like having a son of times bestseller having my poem on the the transport for London board was like I've seen your name on that board a few times I've made it yeah you've made you've made it over and over I get the tube a lot I get the tube a lot a time that you really made it I will remember this um for a long time so you actually carried the Olympic torch in 2020 I have it have it in my house you have it have it have it Because everyone gets their own one. Yeah, because you pass the...

People think you pass the torch, but you actually just pass the flame. Right. No, it is. It is the torch. Because everyone has their own torch and you pass the flame. So it's like a gas canister in the top.

So I'd my own. And then the next person had a... Like, they turn on their gas and you just pass the flame to the next one. So I actually have it in my house. And actually, for anyone who comes into the house, it's the one selfie opportunity. They're like, can I get a selfie with the torch?

Is it got pride of place? Where is it on the mantel piece? Yeah, it's hanging high. It's hanging high. It's hanging high. Amazing. Amazing. something in common with Olympic swimmer, Yuzra and Mardini.

You have an Olympic connection. Thank you. I mean, yeah. I will never forget that we had to then whisk you because we were working at MTV at the time. We had to whisk you from running with the Olympic torch to like wireless festival to do backstage interviews. Yeah, to then wait to interview. I think it was Drake doing it that year? Yeah, it was Drake.

Like three hours to try and get an interview. And all I remember, because it was, you know, sometimes we end up in these situations that are brilliant. I feel very lucky for things I do. but I don't appreciate them until after because you're in this roller coaster so I didn't realize how big the Olympic torch was and like doing it and what it was and when I got there everyone had their families there

like watching and like celebrating and I had Gareth Butters who was our with the camera and I was like yeah Laura we were watching because I invited my mom I should have we all got to watch it yeah Garif Butter's our lovely producer at the time

it was at up at 3 a.m. with me a day of many men many parts and a life of many, many parts, Laura. I think that day sums of my life. Yeah. We move on now to your fifth and final book this week, which is The Girl with the Louding Voice by Abbey Dorei. This is the fictional story of Aduni,

who is a teenage girl growing up in rural Nigeria, in a village who longs to get an education so she can find her louding voice and speak up for herself and help other girls like her do the same. Tell us why you pick this pick. I read this book during lockdown. And I think it's probably the last book I read before I start reading what to expect when you're expecting

and just like loads of books about pregnancy and things like that. Of course, yeah. It is a fictional story, but a very powerful and weirdly relatable, even though I can have no idea what is like growing up in Nigeria and the type of trauma that Adunee faced. But there's issues in there. you'll notice a lot of things that I talk by, a lot of the books I refer to. They talk about these universal issues, but in different ways.

So whether it's a fictional story about this little girl who is, you know, may, you know, put into this arranged marriage and not allowed to have education, or whether it's Sarah Pascoe, through comedy, talking about, you know, FGM and different things like that, it's, it's, I think it's how you tackle things. And sometimes these issues can be overwhelming. but when they're told through the narrative of this story, of this little girl. And I love how the dialogue is written. And I think there's something like 55 chapters, but they're all short chapters. So I read it very quickly because you know, you can kind of like fly through the chapters at nighttime. And also I probably, it was probably at a time when I constantly could read every day. Yeah.

Because now. What a great time it was. Love the lockdown for that. You know what? It kind of was. Like now I don't have the luxury of being able to spend even half an hour reading every night. because I'm so tired, I just fall asleep. And you've got a little one as well.

Yeah, and also just like life is back and busy and it's that phomo fear of missing out that you feel you need to do everything. Well, yeah, the ritual of having a book, like how I knew it was nighttime was like I might have a glass of wine or dinner and then read some of the book. And that's how I do it was. So it's for me, I reflect on that as a very special time reading this book.

But just a little bit about it. Like I love how Abby writes and I, I guess it's not a real story but it's based on lots of stories that are real. I think she said she first had the idea when she read this news article about this 13 year old house help and then also her, I was inspired by her own experiences of rural Nigeria and and it's just a beautifully written book and you know how how courage can get you through actually a lot of I even refer back to use from Mardini like it's this really similar traits of these women and in all these stories and I think

I remember someone said this book it like what did they say they said it it broke their heart but then put it back together again. Destroyed and restored yeah destroyed it yeah it's one of the yeah it's one of those books that sometimes I need to read in the privacy of my own home and not on a bus. I've done that before. Sometimes when you're reading these like really... Oh, I've done some ugly crying on buses. I read a little life on a plane back from Nigeria, actually. I was seeing my family. And I was wailing so loud that the guy next to me said, I'm sure it's a beautiful story, but can you please be quiet?

I'm full on wailing. I feel your pain. And I don't realize, I don't realize that I make that face. Like my ugly cry is pretty up there. This book is, oh, it's potent and important. And you've spoken so much about the importance of owning your voice, telling your own story, on your own terms. When it comes to your personal life, when it comes to motherhood,

when it comes to press intrusion, how did you find your louding voice? That's such a good question. I'm still working on it. I've definitely found it through reading other women's stories. I'm very privileged in that I get to interview so many people. I get to kind of be this medium to kind of put other people's stories out there. Through watching them, I've really pushed myself to kind of speak out a little bit more.

When you're ready, I'm always about the level of, you can be, you know, you need to protect yourself as well. So always tell your story when you're ready to in a way that you feel serves its purpose. And it takes a while to find your voice. But I'm also very aware of the luxury of having a platform. I have a platform that not all women have. So I, as much as it pisses people off sometimes, plan to use it. Yeah. And so you should loudly in your louding voice. And I have a very loud voice.

Was writing your book a part of finding it and then putting it out into the world? Yeah. And there was a safety in writing the book because you can kind of, you know, you lock yourself away in a room and you just write, right, right, right, right, right. And it doesn't have to go straight out there. You know, you've time to reread it. And there was definitely lots of edits. Not as many as I thought there would be.

Because someone's I'd write something, go, oh, I don't know if I want to put that out there. I might just take that out later, but I'll write it for now. And then I'd end up leaving it in there. Yeah. And it's, it was a, it felt it didn't feel rushed. And maybe that was because of the timing, you know, I did write it during that, that time when I wasn't going out a lot. And the world kind of shut down a little bit. So I felt that was, yeah, I just don't know when I'll ever get a time like that again.

I think a lot of the issues I touched on before, which made it easier. And I didn't push myself too much. But I definitely, I've mentioned a lot of women here who are extremely inspirational, but also like the women in my life who maybe aren't famous, like my friends and my family and those women around me and men around me who are like huge supporters of women. They've all helped me find that voice because anything I put out there affects the people around me too. Like I write a book and I mention my mom in it. Like I have to make sure she's okay with that too because it affects everyone.

And it's yeah, it's just taking your time with things. I think time is precious. We don't have a lot of it, but we shouldn't rush things either. You've mentioned not having enough time. And we don't have enough time to mention all of the books that you wanted to bring to the table. But we can give some honourable mentions because I have these written down in front of me. Daisy and the Six. didn't quite make the club

on Taylor Jenkins read Yeah my friend Tori actually and we normally give each other books Again talking about I just love I love passing on books to friends and stuff So Tori who's my makeup artist as well We spend a lot of time together

She gave me this book And I love it Because it's kind of written as a documentary And I started reading it Thinking it was a true story But it's not But they are making it into a TV series Reese Witherspoon

Hello Sunshine Group And you know it's going to be good If she has her hands on it But it's kind of based around a band in the 70s and Daisy's the lead singer and it kind of reminds me of Fleetwood Mac and I'm a huge fan of Fleetwood Mac and I've watched a lot of documentaries about them and the dramas that go on behind the scenes so it's kind of of that vibe. There was another Honourable mention that we can we can just say Pride and Prejudice was in there too

do you know why I had to say it because I studied it at school like a lot of people and Jane Austen I mean you kind of have to give a big shout out to that's why I mentioned in Van Boland as well particularly like women writing through a time where, you know, heavily male dominated. But I still to this day know the first part of that book off, which is a treat universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a large fortune must have been one to a wife.

However little known the feelings of views of such a man may be on his first entering neighbourhood that he is considered the rightly possession of one or other of their daughters. Yeah, I think that's it roughly. Do you know when you learn something at school, I don't even know what I'm saying, but it's in there. It's in there.

It's so in there. It was, that just flowed. It just fell out of your mouth. It was beautiful. That was amazing. And Mr. Darcy, everyone's first crush. Yeah. He's a bit of a pain though.

Well, yeah, actually. And we know that now. It's crazy how at the time, like we thought, yeah, this is ideal. And it just takes a little bit of living to realize, no, not so. Well, I'm not going to let you choose from those two. But if you could choose or you had to choose one book from your list of five as a favorite, which one would it be and why? That's so mean.

Sorry. I am so mean I'm going to say I'm going to do because she's Irish Ivan Boland against love poetry because it's the only poetry book in there as well

and it's something I've come back to recently and kind of reread some of those poems and had new meaning well Laura you've been such a delightful guest I've absolutely adored chatting to you about all of your favourite novels and collections and poems and stories

and I just really hope that you do find the time to escape to more books do you think you'll manage to make it work? Oh, I will, I will. I always have one in my, I'm not very good, but like Kindles, I always have a book in my bag.

Oh yeah, me too. Because if you expect, and I'm actually, I'm going to be traveling a lot this summer back and forth on a plane, so that's a good time to read. Yeah. The Love Island's novels.

I love that. I love that. And sometimes you need a bit of escape, is I love Love Island, I'm addicted to it. It's like, I just love it so much. And then it's nice to get on a plane and then just read about something else. Yeah, absolutely. As we said before, you're a woman of so many facets. And between Love Island shooting, you can, you can escape to completely different worlds. I'm excited for you. Laura, thank you so, so much. It's been an absolute joy having you on the podcast.

It's been so lovely. Thank you for having me on. I'm Bick-Okew and you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast. Please rate and review. this podcast, it is the easiest way to help spread the word about the female talent you've heard about today. The Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Birdline Media. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time. Star Wars Andor streaming exclusively on Disney Plus. Gassian Ander Empire is choking us. I need all the heroes I can get. From the creators of Rogue One.

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