Bookshelfie: Women’s Prize Podcast - S5 Ep9: Bookshelfie: Emma Dabiri

Episode Date: June 16, 2022

Writer, academic and broadcaster Emma Dabiri talks about identity, ghost stories and why she could make a whole podcast about Toni Morrison's books.  Emma’s first book, an essay collection called Don’t Touch My Hair, explores the way that colonisation, oppression and, ultimately, liberation are all expressed in Black women’s hair – and it gained critical acclaim from just about everyone. Emma’s second book - a Sunday Times bestseller - What White People Can Do Next: From Allyship to Coalition, is a longform essay looking at how support for anti-racism can be translated into meaningful, structural action. Emma’s book choices are:  ** Woman on the edge of time by Marge Piercy ** Quicksand by Nella Larsen  ** Paradise by Toni Morrison ** The Birds & Other Short Stories by Daphne du Maurier ** Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston Vick Hope, multi-award winning TV and BBC Radio 1 presenter, author and journalist, is the host of season five of the Women’s Prize for Fiction Podcast. Every week, Vick will be joined by another inspirational woman to discuss the work of incredible female authors. The Women’s Prize is one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and they continue to champion the very best books written by women.   Don’t want to miss the rest of Season Five? Listen and subscribe now!   This podcast is sponsored by Baileys and produced by Bird Lime Media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At Harrison Healthcare, we know that lasting health starts with personalized care. We're not just a clinic. We're your partner in prevention, helping you achieve your health and longevity goals. Our expert team combines evidence-based medicine with the compassionate, unhurried care you and your family deserve. Today and for many years to come. When it comes to your health, you shouldn't settle for anything less than exceptional. Visit Harrisonhealthcare.ca.ca.com.com. Today's tale begins when the Smith family sit down to enjoy a film. Suddenly they heard the scariest sound.

The Wi-Fi is down. The family were doomed to wait for a film that wouldn't load. Save yourself from broadband nightmares. Get BT's Unbreakable Hybrid Broadband backed up by EE, the UK's best network. Search BT Hybrid Broadband. 88% UK availability. 4G connection takes up to 1025 seconds. Best for mobile network performance verify at EE.com.

4 slash claims. Yes, it's one of my favourite of her. I think my two favourite action. Oh, okay, my three favourite. You can do this. I'm going to let you. Sorry, sorry. No, my, these are my three favourite Tony Morrison.

Sorry, I'm sorry. With thanks to Bailey's, this is the Women's Prize for Fiction podcast, celebrating women's writing, sharing our creativity, our voices and our perspectives, all while championing the very best fiction written by women around the world. I'm Vic Hope and I'm your host for Season 5 of the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. The podcasts that asks women with lives as inspiring as any fiction to share the five books by women that have shaped them.

We have a phenomenal lineup of guests for 2022 and I guarantee you'll be taking away plenty of reading recommendations. Hello and welcome to today's episode of Bookshelfy. A quick reminder that this year's shortlist is out now and the six brilliant authors in their books can all be found on our website. www.womenspriestfiction.com.com. and you'll also have the chance to hear from all of them to talk about their wonderful books on a bonus episode of the podcast. But today, our guest is the phenomenal writer, academic and broadcaster Emma Dabbery.

Her first book exploded onto the scene with critical acclaim from just about everyone, from fellow authors, including Marion Keys and Bernardine Everisto, to newspapers like The Guardian and the Irish Times. The essay collection, Don't Touch My Hair, explored the way that colonisation, oppression and ultimately liberation are all expressed in black women's hair. Emma's second book, a Sunday Times bestseller, what white people can do next from allyship to coalition, is a long-form essay book looking at how support for anti-racism can be translated into meaningful,

structural action. Welcome to the podcast, Emma. How are you? Yeah, I'm good, thank you. How are you? I'm really good. It's lovely to meet you and an absolute pleasure to have you to speak about the books that have shaped you what they mean to you. How long have you been an avid reader? Oh, from as long as I can remember, really. But I think it really, really kind of took off when I was on holiday in Nigeria. Well, yeah, I went to stay with my grandparents when I was like seven and none of my, no one was around. Like none of my cousins were around. There was like no one my age around. And then I found like this um copy that had been maybe my dad's or had been somebody's book when they were a child

like a really old edition of um a book a Victorian children's book called five children and it. Um and I read that. I think it was probably like for an older child but I was like kind of like desperate for like for entertainment and I found this copy. of five children and it. And I remember reading that and just being like transported, like to this very different kind of British Victorian children's world that was in sharp contrast to like physically where I was at that time. But I just remember being like completely like engrossed.

And I feel that was like a really significant point in like my relationship to books and reading. It's so similar to something that I experienced as well. Whereabouts in Nigeria? were you, where are your family? In Lagos. Okay. Yeah, we used to, so my family were also, I'm half Nigerian, half my family are in Newcastle and we used to go to the village, we used to go via Lagos

and stay there for about a week first and then head to Omanma, which is sort of near the Delta, emo state. And I remember being so engrossed in books as well because there was nothing else really to do. We'd just be at the house and we'd just be on the compounds and it was like a way of being transported to

these worlds that felt like I really needed them at the time. I completely completely relate to your experience. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, so, like, you know, I think in a way it was, like, because of not having TV, because of not having, like, a lot of the distractions that one, or the other forms of entertainment, that, like, computer games and stuff, you know, it really, yeah, I think it was, it was really, I'm really grateful for that,

you know, even though I might not have felt like that at the time. And from five children in it, how did your, reading tastes develop as you grew up? Well, like, I read, like, a lot of black children's literature and a lot of, um, a lot of black history from, from like a really young age. And I think that was in large part, that was a combination of factors. So, like, I was born in Dublin, but, um, as soon as I was born, we moved to Atlanta, Georgia and the American South.

Right. And my dad was studying at, um, at Morehouse. And in Atlanta, like in the 80s, because Atlanta is like a really black city, there was a lot of children's literature. There was a lot of black children's literature. So when people talk about, you know, kind of they're like not seeing like representation in books when they were younger. That wasn't my experience like in Atlanta at all. So I was just like exposed to a lot of children's literature that just had black characters that just like was completely. comprised of black characters and black cultural worlds.

But, so that wasn't even actively seeking them out. That was just like what was around me. Then we moved to Ireland and things like shifted dramatically. Yeah. I can imagine. So that very like black cultural world that was like not even so easily accessible. It's just like what I was in was like completely removed. And it was like the polar opposite.

And I think in trying to seek out, and like a lot of the experiences that I had when I moved to Ireland, I didn't have anyone else to talk to them about. Like there weren't other, there weren't other black people. Like I, there weren't like other, like I didn't. Yeah, there weren't other black kids around, you know? And then like my mom is white, my dad, well, I don't know what he thought. I don't know what he thought. And he went back to Nigeria like shortly afterwards anyway. So it was just kind of like me trying to make sense of experiences of racism, but really, really, like, compounded by, like, just intense isolation and alienation because it felt like it was just happening to me. And I didn't have anybody, you know, to try and unpack it or understand it with.

So I think I was really looking for answers to some of the things that I was experiencing in books, you know, and maybe trying to create, like, a sort of sense of, like, black community. that I didn't actually have, that I didn't have anymore, that I sought out kind of like in literature and books. I completely understand. I remember seeking out books that I felt sort of validated by or provided me of a sense of community or solace in lieu of there being anyone else who looked like me around me.

And finding them on the pages of their books was, it was very special and it really set me up. But I think my understanding of racism came from quite a theoretical viewpoint because I was like seeing things on the pages of books and then trying to analyze them. using the way that they'd been talked about by authors rather than just chatting to people around because they did not exist. But it's so formative and it's so interesting to hear that from you.

Should we move on to your first book, Shelfy Book, and how this might have shaped your life? And it is Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge P.S.E. In 1976, a novel considered an absolute classic of utopian speculative science fiction as well as a feminist classic. The story follows Connie Ramos, who's been unjustly incarcerated in a mental institution with no hope of release. The authorities view her is a danger to herself and to others,

and her family has given up on her, but she has a secret way to escape the confines of her cell. When did you first read this book? Why did you pick it? So I first read it when I was about 17. And to be honest, I haven't read it in a long time. I read it a few times, but the last time I read it, I was probably like in my early 20s.

so I haven't read it in a long time. But I think it was a book that was, you know, really formative, actually, like in a lot of my, yeah, that was just like really influential. And when I think about, like, a lot of the way that I write and the way I'm interested in mixing, like, kind of historical research and, like, sociology and, actually this is a slightly different to this book. But when I think about, okay, something else that I do,

that is kind of very interested in this idea of like ancient futures and how there are aspects of pre-colonial cultures that are actually really, really like far more, I guess, progressive is the word that we would, like a kind of a contemporary word that we would use, that are kind of far more progressive than sometimes. where we find ourselves now. And ways in which you can think about kind of taking from the past

to create more radical futures is an idea that's like very pronounced in this book where Connie, the main protagonist, yeah, is in an institution. But as you described, she has this kind of, she has this way out. She's a time traveler. But you're like, is she a time traveler?

Or is she, or is this like a symptom of, of a mental illness is kind of one of the things that's going on that's going on in the book. But the future that she travels to is one that is very based in these kind of like pre-colonial types of like communal living, but is also really, really technologically advanced and has all of this, basically has harnessed, like all of this. this like kind of very futuristic technology, but kind of, you know,

merge that with ways of living that I guess, yeah, would be described as, I guess you could describe as like, kind of like pre-colonial or like indigenous. And I think that vision was like very, yeah, was very influential on me at like,

yeah, at a young age. In terms of your own writing and the influence it might have had on that, where do you find inspiration for your writing? What, what spurs you want? I find inspiration in a lot of different places, but I'm really, I'm really, really inspired by, like, black radical traditions.

And, like, I read a lot of theory as well as, as well as fiction. I think, like, in large part, that's because I've been doing a PhD for longer than I care to. as is the way for a long time but I am in the final year that chapter that long chapter of my life is finally drawing to a close

but like yeah I read a lot of I read a lot of theory and I think there's a kind of school of thinking or like body of literature called like the black radical tradition and I guess it emerges from

it's mostly like black American or it's black American in origin and I think its roots are coming from forms of resistance and abolition. You know, people who were cast as property or the descendants of people who were seen as property, thinking about liberatory strategies and ways of being that abolish the systems that positioned them, structurally in that way. So it's not just about how can we thrive in this system.

It's actually about how can we organize society differently. So these forms of exploitation and yeah, these forms of exploitation no longer exist for anybody. So I feel like marrying that kind of theory with narrative and with memoir, that's inspiring. On the subject of resistance, you know, a key theme in this book is injustice. So many injustices, but, you know, the injustice is particularly experienced by black people. Even now when racism in so many institutions is supposedly non-existent. We know that to be a fallacy. In your book, you quote George Lipsich, who says,

good intentions are not adequate in the face of relentlessly oppressive and powerful, well-financed military and economic political systems. So what do you think is... the route that we need to dismantle. What is needed to fight back? Yeah, so that quote from George Lipset, so yeah, he's like an American academic that would be a part of this black radical tradition.

He's actually like a white American, but people operate in the black rap, people advance kind of theory and ideas within this black radical tradition that might not necessarily be racialized as black, although the origins of the discourse come from people who are racialized as black. But there's other people that operate within that space as well. So I think that what we need, so what he's talking about is he's kind of comparing,

in the broader context, whether that quote is from, is he's talking about some of the movements and organizing of like the 1960s and the 1970s, where they were actually concerned with presenting alternative systems and institutions within society, as opposed, no, as opposed they're in contrast to now where he's saying in this kind of current moment, there doesn't seem to be that kind of organization of, you know, people were coming up with like forms of like collectives. and like alternative schooling and just alternative institutions. Whereas now the emphasis seems to be more so on keeping things as they are, but just making them more inclusive,

which doesn't necessarily tackle the fact that these are systems that are exploitative, no matter how diverse they are. Star Wars and or streaming exclusively on Disney Plus. Cassian Ander, Empire is choking us. I need all the heroes I can get. From the creators of Rogue One. There is an organized rebel effort. Get a hunt started.

Witness the beginning. This is what revolution looks like. Of rebellion. I'm tired of losing. Wouldn't you rather give it all up to something real? Star Wars Andor. Original series streaming September 21st, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required T-N-C apply.

Today's tale begins when the Smith family sit down to enjoy a film. Suddenly they heard the scariest sound. The Wi-Fi is down. The family were doomed to wait for a film that wouldn't load. Save yourself from Broadband Nightmares. Get BT's Unbreakable Hybrid Broadband backed up by EE, the UK's best network. Search BT Hybrid Broadband. 88% UK availability.

4G connection takes up to 1075 seconds best for mobile network performance, verify at e.e.com.uk4 slash claims. Bayleys is proudly supporting the Women's Prize for Fiction. by helping showcase incredible writing by remarkable women, celebrating their accomplishments and getting more of their books into the hands of more people. Looking for a treat to pair with your favourite book, Bailey's is the perfect accompaniment to enjoy either over ice or over coffee. There are no better friendships than those formed around brilliant books.

And since you're listening, we're guessing you love books as much as we do. The Women's Prize has created an exclusive community that gives you a bookish backstableness, stage pass offering surprises and freebies plus unmissable reading recommendations and book chat from my founder friends, including me, Nick Hove. Search for Women's Prize friend to become a friend today. We cannot wait to meet you. We'll move now onto your second bookshelfy book, which is Quicksand by Nella Larson. Published in 1928, Nella Larson's powerful first novel has intriguing autobiographical parallels

and at the same time invokes the international dimension of African-American culture. of the 1920s. It also evocatively portrays the racial and gender restrictions that can mark life. Emma, tell me about this book. Why did it resonate with you? So I first read Quicksand about 12 years ago and it actually didn't massively resonate with me. I don't even really remember it. And then I was teaching a course looking at the parallels between the Irish Lady River Revival and the Harlem Renaissance. And the Harlem Renaissance is a really important black, American literary, literary period

in the, again, it's about 20 years after the Irish literary revival. The kind of, it's in like the 1920s and arguably kind of into the 1930s. And Nella Larson's book would be kind of a classic of the Harlem Renaissance. So when I was teaching this course, I was like, oh, well, I want to look at more I want to look at some of the key female authors in the Harlem Renaissance, and they would be kind of

Nella Larson and Zora Neal Hurston. And so I reread it for that. And I was like, whoa, like, what? Like, how, how was I so kind of unmoved by this the first time I read it? Why can't I really remember it? In terms of, like, the writing style, it's such a sublimely written book, and it's such an important modernist text. It's also kind of uncanny in that it was written 100 years ago, almost 100 years ago. And my students couldn't believe that it wasn't, that it hadn't just been written. It is so, it taps into so many themes and conversations that are still so deeply pertinent today and that we're still completely grappling with. But she's writing this like a hundred, a hundred years ago. And she's also just very, a lot of the female characters are just very

modern seeming. And I think that's also really important to demonstrate that Harlem in the 1920s was this, you know, there was like, there was a lot going on that could make it, you know, comparable to the world today. It was like very cosmopolitan and in many ways like very bohemian and like progressive and lots of lots of really interesting stuff happening. It's such an amazing thing when a book manages somehow inexplicably to pass you by on a first reading and you go back and you're just like, how did I miss this? But sometimes we're just not ready and then we are.

Sometimes you're not in the right place for it. Yeah, you're not in the right place for it. It's so pertinent. I don't know about you, I was always so drawn to books about characters of dual heritage when I was growing up and that navigating of where you might belong, just as Helga does. Did you find that when you were growing up,

your Nigerian, Irish heritage, was it important to you to sort of explore where you might belong? Did you ever feel excluded from either? I wasn't say I was particularly drawn to narratives where people, where people were, I can't, I can hardly, like, so my PhD is all about the racial category, mixed race, I have to put it in inverted commas because it's not a term, I understand why the term is used and why people, I understand why it's used, but it's one that I try not to use. And my, my PhD is kind of unpacking the whole thing.

So I wouldn't say I was particularly drawn to stories where the protagonists were quote-unquote mixed race. I was really drawn to stories where there were black protagonists. And often, sometimes those protagonists were quote-unquote mixed race. But I would say it was more broadly maybe like black protagonists, but the diversity that exists amongst black people. So I think I was interested often in characters who were liminal in some way, who were outsiders in some way, but that wasn't necessarily because they were quote, unquote, mixed race, you know.

So yeah, there were definitely characters who were mixed, but I'd say they sat within like a broader interest that I had in kind of black storytelling. We'll move on now to your third book, is Paradise by Tony Morrison. Four young women are brutally attacked in a convent near an all-black town in America in the mid-1970s. The inevitability of this attack and the attempts to avert it lie at the heart of paradise. Tony Morrison challenges our most fiercely held beliefs as she weaves folklore and history into an unforgettable novel of race, religion, gender and a far-off past that is ever present. Why did you choose this book, Emma? Because I love it. I love it.

it and also interestingly like um quicksand i read it when i was much younger and actually i didn't i didn't feel um ambivalent about it i loved it the first time i read it but i loved it with an acknowledgement that it was like a woman's book and i was still kind of like a girl and i felt like there were themes in it that if I read them when I was older, they would resonate more strongly with me. And you recognized that at the time. I recognized that at the time. And I was like, I'm going to come back to this book when I'm older.

Even though, like I said, I loved it at the time. And then I read it again about three years ago, being a lot older, you know, having, being, being a mother, having, just experienced a lot more of life and yeah, it resonated it resonated more, I understood it better. I understood it better. Also, I mean, again, like when you were describing it and you're talking about like that mix of like mythology

and like history and the past and the future and time, these are all these are all themes that I've like I think been drawn to as a reader and also really reflect I guess the way that I write as well I feel like the first Tony Morrison book I read was Song of Solomon I was actually like

I found it really hard to do this list I can imagine of five books yeah and I was just like Tony Morrison comes up I think pretty much every episode, maybe minus one or two max, but she's been such an influential author on all of my guests, whether they've been writers and she's influenced the way they write or just moreover, just the way that they live,

the way that they look at the world and the way they look at themselves. She's had such an impact on so many of us, and she draws so much pain and so much beauty at the same time out of the world around us and helps us challenge the world around us. around us. How important is it to challenge the world around us, to challenge beliefs, to challenge the way that we're living? Yeah, I think it's, it's extremely important. But then I also think as well that it's really important, but increasingly I think one can't sustain an entire life in an oppositional, in an oppositional stance. Got the energy for that. So it's about, it's

about fine. And also, it pits you against something. So you're always like resist, you're all, you're this, things that you, things that you may, you know, want to, what's the word, that you, that you want to challenge can become just the central organizing force of your life. So they're kind of like taking up too much space within your life. And, I'm really interested in this idea of like of refusal. And there's an author that I, whose work really inspires me called Fred Moten. He's a, again, you know, part of this black radical tradition. He's a black American critic and scholar.

And he talks about this, he, there's this quote from him where he's like, refuse that which refused you. So in a way, like, refuse that, which first refused you. So in a way, it's kind of going back to like what we were saying with George Lipsitz as well. Rather than just opposing, you know, things as they are, but being locked in this oppositional relationship with them, you can actually reimagine and recreate or create an alternative that, you exist and operate in without just with so this idea of like refusing that which refused you not necessarily demanding to be seen by it but actually just being like you know rejecting it refusing it

and creating something different so I think that's an idea that really excites me so yes challenging things is necessary and we do have to like we do have to fight injustice and exploitation and oppression, but we also, as well as that, have to imagine and create alternatives. When you have challenged and when you have for in the past, I know that you've received racist abuse, you've talked about this after having done public speaking. You said it didn't affect you because in your words, it's just words. But words can hold a lot of power over people. How did you take the power out of those words? How did you deal with that? I feel desensitized to verbal racism.

I think as a result of the volume of it that I experienced growing up, it just came to a point where it's like oversaturation. It's like you can't keep being exposed to something and it have the same impact. And I feel like that's probably like not, it's like a, I guess it's like a desensitization. And probably like something like of a defense mechanism. And probably like not super healthy. But in a way, I feel like I was, I was very well placed to speak publicly about racism and be able to deal with the backlash that that can entail because this wasn't my first go in the rodeo.

Anything that people have said to me online, I've had that, I've had, I've had that kind of thing said to me, you know, frequently, frequently growing up. So I just feel a bit like, I don't know, like mear about it. However, I feel like I understand like if I think about my children having those experiences or other people having those experiences, I feel horrified, you know? So it's not to detract from the impact of those things. It's just that for me personally, specifically because of the time and place that I grew up in, I don't know, those kind of words have little.

impact. Yeah, I mean, you can deal with a lot more than you think you can, but it doesn't mean you should because as you say, there is another generation and another and another and another and we hope that things will get better. How do you see the world that your kids are growing up in and specifically Ireland, because that's what you can compare it to when you grew up? Yeah, so Ireland, like, has changed dramatically and rapidly in ways that I you know, would not have foreseen. And if I would have foreseen them, I think I would have thought the time period would be greater, you know?

So I actually feel like really excited about, about Ireland and about the way, about some of the ways it is engaging with becoming a country, that isn't... So the country I grew up in was like a 99.9% white country. You know, there was no... People were like, oh,

I guess he didn't have like representation in media. I was just like, it wasn't that there wasn't representation in media. It was like there wasn't any other black... There wasn't representation in the world. In the world. I didn't even really care about the media.

I was just talking about like, who's around me. The media's like... Not even getting to that stage yet. So, and now, and also when I was growing up, like, to be black and Irish, it was just like, it was like an oxymoron. You know, it's just like, how can that, how can that even be? Whereas now it's like, kind of, especially in Ireland, it's unremarkable. It's still when you're in other countries, and you say you're Irish, people are like, surprised and you can still see the cogs. So I kind of notice that more outside of Ireland, whereas like in Ireland, and, you say you're Irish.

I guess the rest of the world hasn't kind of gotten the memo about how Ireland has changed. But like in Ireland, it's pretty unremarkable to be Irish and to not be white. And that was something that was like, yeah, like I would say like an oxymoron when I was growing up. And I see a lot of Irish people who aren't white, you know, just describe themselves as Irish in a way that. I wouldn't see many British people who aren't white, just be like, yeah, I'm English. Have you found Biscateers yet? Bisciteers are the original hand-iced biscuit gifting company

offering beautiful biscuit collections for any occasion. All of their gorgeous biscuits are lovingly hand-iced, one at a time, by artists at the Ministry of Biscuits in London. One of my absolute favourite is the butterfly collection. The biscuits are absolute works of art. They look like perfect, hand-yceders. painted butterflies and come in the most beautiful tin. You're bound to make an impression with these. And Biscateers are offering our lovely listeners 15% off your first order with the code

love fiction. So for the very best present ideas, head to Biscateers.com now. Your fourth book, Shelby Book now is The Birds and Other Short Stories by Daphne du Mori. A classic of alienation and horror, the birds was immortalized by Hitchcock in a celebrated film. the five other chilling stories in this collection, echo a sense of dislocation, and mock man's dominance over the natural world. Why has this book made your list, Emma? Oh my God.

So I love ghost stories. I've always loved ghost stories. Remember, at the beginning of our conversation, I was saying that I read really widely and I also, when I was little, like read a lot of folklore and mythology and also ghost stories. and I feel like growing up in Ireland,

this idea of the the division between like the kind of scene and the unseen between like the magical and the ordinary is not as, is like they kind of, like, what's the word? They kind of like coexist or sit, sit side by side and I feel like are, yeah, there's a lot, there are a lot of ghost stories,

you know, kind of grew up hearing a lot of them and just always had, yeah, just was always, like, always really enjoyed reading them. I don't like horror, like I hate, I hate gore and I hate like, you know, like kind of like slasher horror, but I love ghost stories, like ghost films as So these books, and I like, I like weird and uncanny, like short stories as well. And Daphne de Marrier is just a masterful creator of these eerie, uncanny, odd worlds. And there's a story in this. book. So the birds is the best known one I guess because of the Hitchcock movie. But there's one called the usheret about, yeah, an usheret in a in a movie theater. I think she's very like

pretty and glamorous. But she has a secret. And it is such a creepy story. And she has, Again, she has these female protagonists that are just, you know, unexpected and they're not what they're not what they seem often. And there's a real, yeah, there's just like, I don't know, just like very unusual female characters, you know, that I just, yeah, I really just love her writing. And this book of short stories in particular is just like very cool. Why is it that you think that you've reached for horror or reach for ghost stories as you've gone through your life? Is it an escape? I mean, is there even a sense of, like, weirdly, oxymoronically, like a sense of comfort in it? Yeah, so I would say not horror.

Like, I kind of avoid, like I don't like horror. But with ghost stories, I feel because I really like folklore and mythology, and there's quite a kind of crossover between that, yeah, and good. ghost stories. I think the interest comes from that, but also because I'm really interested in time. And in Don't Touch My Hair, like, you know, it's a book about black hair, but I have a chapter on time, which a lot of people have said to me as their favorite chapter of the book and they hadn't been expecting or anticipating that to be in there. I was looking at the idea that, you know, black hair has been imagined as burdensome and too time consuming. And I was just like,

well, that can't be right, because if that was the case, then it's like as though there's something deviant about my hair. And I know that's not the, I know that that's not the case. It must be that the way we organize time, you know, hasn't been constructed or designed to take into account the needs of people with this, with this hair texture, you know, because like, yeah, like, in order for me to do my hair, it does, it takes time. But the problem can't be with my hair. It's more so what we, determine we should be doing with the hours in the day. So in order to write that chapter, I started to look at like African concepts of time in which time was approached and understood

and organized like very differently. And one of the things that, you know, is significant is that in the West we have this linear idea of time and they're being like a very clearly defined distinction and difference between the past, the present, and the future. And in lots of, in lots of kind of African concepts of time, and actually not just African, but kind of like non-Western concepts of time. And like, you know, where a lot of like kind of folklore and mythology also, I guess, comes from are these different approaches, these different approaches to time. within the African kind of cultures that I was looking at, there's this idea of in the spiritual

belief systems, which really connects to the way time is understood. Ancestual veneration is really key. And there's this idea that like the ancestors, the living and the unborn are kind of in this time is more cyclical than linear like beginning, middle and end. And so our ancestors, the ancestors are reborn and the unborn might have already been here and they're just waiting to like come again. And there's this idea that there's this sharp kind of divide between the ancestral, the living and the unborn is kind of dissolved. And so I'm really interested in the past, the future informing the past and the present informing the past. and all of these different times being in, being in like communication kind of with each other. So I think the kind of interest in the past, in dissolving those boundaries, I think my interesting

kind of like ghost stories is also related to all of that. Sorry, very complicated answer. You know what, your answer was very like, it was very pictorial because I'm imagining ghosts, the way that you're talking about the future and forming the past. I'm imagining swirling, like just pure swirling, which is how I imagine a ghost. And the ghost stories just keep moving as time does, as we keep sort of influencing the whole of humanity.

Yeah. Oh, I'm glad. I can picture it. And then just to say really quickly, I guess ghosts are kind of imagined as largely like negative and sinister. And you have exorcisms and you try and get them to be at peace, Whereas a big difference, I guess, with like ancestral belief systems is actually you try and invoke the ancestral spirits. And they're seen as, you know, being in communication with them is seen as something that is like good for individuals, is good for the community, is associated with knowledge and wisdom and healing.

So there's a different, I guess, there's a different, there's quite different kind of, I guess, understandings of the difference between, I guess, There's ancestral traditions and the idea of being kind of haunted by ghosts. They have different, what's the word, connotation. Your fifth and final book this week, Emma, is Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neal Hurston. A 1937 novel considered a classic of the Harlem Renaissance, there is, and Hurston's best known work, Janie Crawford sets out to be her own person. No mean feat for a black woman in the 30s. Janie's quest for identity takes her through three months.

marriages and into a journey back to her roots. Why did you pick this? Yeah, so actually this is interesting. This isn't why I picked the book, but something I want to pick up on when you asked about quote unquote mixed race characters. Okay, so basically Janie is raised by her grandmother who was like an enslaved woman. But Janie's, so Janie's grandmother was an enslaved woman who had Janie's mom. So I think it's like her owner was the father of Janie's.

mom. So Janie's mom has a white dad, the main protagonist. But Janie's mom has died. Janie's mom was also raped by a white man. So Janie, the main protagonist in the book, has a lot of white ancestry. But she's never presented as a mixed race character. She's a black woman in like a segregated, like, short recently kind of like out of slavery, um, world, you know,

so there are characters, within black literature, there are many characters who have mixed ancestry, but they're not delineated as mixed race characters. If that makes sense. Um, so anyway, that's Janie's background.

As a result of Janie's mother's, Jane's grandmother, so Janie's grandmother is raising her. As a result of the horror that she's experienced, she really wants Janie to have like, a comfortable life or, no, not even a comfortable life, a life where she is safe, basically. And the only way that she can see Janie being safe is to be married to like a wealthy, relatively wealthy, powerful man. There's an arranged marriage essentially where Janie marries a wealthy,

wealthy black man in the community who's lots older than her. And the story is basically, So I don't actually read like a lot of romance novels. That's not, that's not reading my thing. But this is like, oh my God, like it is so, I was bawling, crying by the end of it. I was literally like in floods of tears. I was like in pieces. And especially like, you know, for someone who doesn't really read like romance, I was just like, whoa, this writing about love is like so, is so powerful and so poetic and expansive and beautiful

that I wanted to include it. It's a really beautiful inclusion, I think, amongst your collection that you've brought to us today. I love that and that's what this podcast is all about. I've actually seen you mention, I think, in an interview, that you love subversion so much so that your book, what white people can do next. You made it look like it was part of the anti-racist genre, which was frustrating many people.

Are there any parts of yourself that you do this with? Give people the wrong impression or not lure them in a malicious sense, but just play with perception. Well, I don't actively set out to do that. But I know that based on my appearance, appearance, people often tend to think that I'm very different to how I am. Certainly, they think my interests will be very different often to what they are. And many times I've turned up somewhere in my role as a researcher or an academic or, you know, to do some, to do some research

or to do something that's like kind of very specific to my kind of like academic training, because I do lots of different stuff. And people will be like, oh, where's the person we were expecting kind of thing? I'm like, she's me. And I think they're a bit like, oh, I remember turning up for something. And actually, let me not even tell that story.

But yeah, I think there's people tend to think that I'm younger than I am. And then I wear makeup and I like, You know, I like kind of, I like dressing up. And people make assumptions about those things. You know, if you're a woman that kind of is perceived as being young or glamorous, people will often make assumptions about your interests or perhaps even your intellect or the level of depth that you might have. And that really pisses me off. So I refuse to actually minimize,

I refuse to kind of alter the way I present myself to conform to people's expectations. I'll never forget seeing Chimamanda and Gossi Adichie talking about wearing makeup and dressing however she wanted. And I felt like, yeah, you know what? Why is it always felt like I won't be taken seriously if I do these things that I actually really, really love that make me happy? And at the end of the day,

well so we go we can be not just anything but everything um exactly emma if you had to choose just one book from your list and i know they're all they're all quite different and they do different things they say different things they speak to you in different ways but there was just one that was a favorite which one would it be and why i hate this question i'm so sorry i feel like i'm like i'm like i'm cheating on these books for everyone I don't, for whatever one I don't choose. Do you know what? I'm going to have to go with Tony Morrison actually because with her in particular, I couldn't even think which book to choose. I think I partially chose Paradise because I thought if people had chosen Tony Morrison a lot, which I assume people had, Paradise probably wasn't the one that they chose. No, correct.

Beloved's probably been the one that's come up the most, I think. I often try and choose the books by authors that aren't their best known ones. But with, or aren't their most popular ones. But with, it would be Tony Morrison because it was difficult to narrow it down to just one book. I could do one of these podcasts with my top five Tony Morrison books. You know what though? If anyone listening right now hasn't read that book, then this is hopefully going to,

you know, inspire them to pick it up. It sort of presses it into their hands, which is a good thing. Yes. Yes. It's, yeah, it's one of, it's one of my favourite. of her book. I think my two favorite, oh, okay, my three favorite.

You can do this. I'm going to leave. Sorry, sorry. No, my, oh, these are my three favorite Tony Morrison. Sorry, it's Sula Song of Solomon and Paradise.

Yeah. So again, if anyone's listening, hasn't read them, there you go. Eight recommendations for the price of five. Thank you so much, Emma. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you

and just hearing about your life, your work, your loves, your thoughts and the books that have shaped you. Thank you. I enjoyed it a lot. I'm Rick Hunt.

And you've been listening to the Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast. Please do rate and review this podcast. It is the easiest way to help spread the word about the female talent you've heard about today. The Women's Prize for Fiction Podcast

is brought to you by Bayleys and produced by Bird's Line Media. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time. Star Wars Andor, streaming exclusively on Disney Plus. Cassian Ander, Empire is choking us. I need all the heroes.

from the creators of Rogue One There is a organized rebel effort Get a hunt started Witness the beginning This is what revolution looks like Of rebellion I'm tired of losing Wouldn't you rather give it all to something real

Star Wars and or Original series streaming September 21st Exclusively on Disney Plus 18 plus subscription required T's and C's apply